Thanos w THOTU vs. The Endless

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Laguna L
Interesting fight. Thanos gets the heart of the universe and does battle with the Endless.

Who wins?

kevdude
Does Destiny get to use his Book and read it to help them?

Laguna L
Originally posted by kevdude
Does Destiny get to use his Book and read it to help them?

Of course.

King Kandy
OMG this is a complete stomp in Thanos's favor. If a group of weak magicians can seal Dream Thanos can do the same to all of them easily.

Mordum
I say thanos wins this. But the endless wont go easy. Even lucifer is bound by destinys book.

Xplosive
THOTI is the absolute power and completely unbeateble.
It's power is supreme.

King Kandy
Yeah seriously, it isn't that hard to destroy aspects. And it's even easier to seal them.

LORD B
Originally posted by Xplosive
THOTI is the absolute power and completely unbeateble.
It's power is supreme. thumb up

guy222
thanos

bobbi
Well dream was weakened by some untold battle when he was trapped so theres at least a little explanation. But Thanos with the THOTU still wins. He might not be able to destroy the concepts of them but will most likely take on the aspects in himself in the end. (I hope i'm making some sense here)

Mr Master
Only an absolute supreme being can stalemate the Heart. smile

Xplosive
Originally posted by Mr Master
Only an absolute supreme being can stalemate the Heart. smile

Indeed.

No one in comic universes has the feat of THOTI.
And what he did, he pretty much did it with a gesture.

Laguna L
Originally posted by bobbi
Well dream was weakened by some untold battle when he was trapped so theres at least a little explanation. But Thanos with the THOTU still wins. He might not be able to destroy the concepts of them but will most likely take on the aspects in himself in the end. (I hope i'm making some sense here)

Juntai
Originally posted by bobbi
Well dream was weakened by some untold battle when he was trapped so theres at least a little explanation. But Thanos with the THOTU still wins. He might not be able to destroy the concepts of them but will most likely take on the aspects in himself in the end. (I hope i'm making some sense here) He also didn't have his items of power, since he put most of his power into his bag of dust and his mask.


Thanos, however all powerful, would probably still be subject to things like Desire, Dream, Destiny, etc. In fact, a lot of these very basic ideals like Desire and what took him as far as he did.

In pure power he's probably above them, but the endless make the realities go around, and exist until the very last vestiges of reality are gone. So in a technical manner, as long as he existed, so would they. And if we say it doesn't work like that because they're from DC or some bla bla bla, then he would hold no power over them either.


But a lot of that is due to purpose more-so than power, Thanos is the more powerful here.

Air Legend
Originally posted by Juntai
He also didn't have his items of power, since he put most of his power into his bag of dust and his mask.


Thanos, however all powerful, would probably still be subject to things like Desire, Dream, Destiny, etc. In fact, a lot of these very basic ideals like Desire and what took him as far as he did.

In pure power he's probably above them, but the endless make the realities go around, and exist until the very last vestiges of reality are gone. So in a technical manner, as long as he existed, so would they. And if we say it doesn't work like that because they're from DC or some bla bla bla, then he would hold no power over them either.


But a lot of that is due to purpose more-so than power, Thanos is the more powerful here.
Wow this is a bunch of gobbledygook rambling. Thanos wins in a stomp.

King Kandy
Originally posted by Juntai
He also didn't have his items of power, since he put most of his power into his bag of dust and his mask.


Thanos, however all powerful, would probably still be subject to things like Desire, Dream, Destiny, etc. In fact, a lot of these very basic ideals like Desire and what took him as far as he did.

In pure power he's probably above them, but the endless make the realities go around, and exist until the very last vestiges of reality are gone. So in a technical manner, as long as he existed, so would they. And if we say it doesn't work like that because they're from DC or some bla bla bla, then he would hold no power over them either.


But a lot of that is due to purpose more-so than power, Thanos is the more powerful here.
Thankfully Thanos doesn't need to destroy the concepts. All he needs to do is destroy the aspect/m-body, which is WAY easier and something he's proven he has the power to do.

Juntai
Originally posted by Air Legend
Wow this is a bunch of gobbledygook rambling. Thanos wins in a stomp. big grin

King Kandy
I mean seriously, Thanos has beaten concepts before, and ones that have way more "combat feats" then the endless do.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Air Legend
Wow this is a bunch of gobbledygook rambling. Thanos wins in a stomp. Ill cosign this.

quanchi112
Originally posted by King Kandy
I mean seriously, Thanos has beaten concepts before, and ones that have way more "combat feats" then the endless do. Exactly. He had the ig before and resisted the effects that Hate and Love had on him. The heart>>>ig.

Juntai
Originally posted by King Kandy
I mean seriously, Thanos has beaten concepts before, and ones that have way more "combat feats" then the endless do. I mean it too.
Thanos has the feats, and the more impressive power. I agree he'd win in combat.

But the Endless just can't die as long as beings still live. The same was obviously not true for the ones that Thanos destroyed.

Basically what I was getting at.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Juntai
I mean it too.
Thanos has the feats, and the more impressive power. I agree he'd win in combat.

But the Endless just can't die as long as beings still live. The same was obviously not true for the ones that Thanos destroyed.

Basically what I was getting at. You dont have to kill a being on here to win. We are all in agreement that Thanos wins this in a stomp.

celestialdemon
Thanos wins.

kevdude
I'd give it to Thanos as well but he'd have to destroy everything in order for Destiny and Death to die, even in The End we still see Marvel Death was still around even after Thanos thought he got rid of everything.

King Kandy
Originally posted by kevdude
I'd give it to Thanos as well but he'd have to destroy everything in order for Destiny and Death to die, even in The End we still see Marvel Death was still around even after Thanos thought he got rid of everything.
Are you purposely ignoring us?

HE DOES NOT NEED TO DESTROY THE CONCEPT! HE ONLY NEEDS TO DESTROY THE ASPECT!

quanchi112
Originally posted by King Kandy
Are you purposely ignoring us?

HE DOES NOT NEED TO DESTROY THE CONCEPT! HE ONLY NEEDS TO DESTROY THE ASPECT! laughing laughing out loud

kevdude
Originally posted by King Kandy
Are you purposely ignoring us?

HE DOES NOT NEED TO DESTROY THE CONCEPT! HE ONLY NEEDS TO DESTROY THE ASPECT!

I KNOW THAT KING eek! . I'm only saying that since Destiny and Death HAVE to be alive till everyone else is DEAD, get it? And yes he could destroy the aspect.

King Kandy
Well thank god that's all he needs to do. What you brought up is quite irrelevant to the thread.

Mr Master
If Thanos wanted, he could've absorbed Death too,
and Atleza's realm.

Isn't it a coincidence though,
that Thanos only left (as far as anyone knows) Two realities behind,
Death (his life-time infatuation) and ...
Atlea's realm which contained Warlock.
Warlock, I remember Thanos saying he saw no reason not to erase Warlock aswell,
You know what Warlock responded with:

http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/9291/15027108kd0.th.jpg

"Except then no one would witness your grand gesture"

Thanos replies, "I was not aware that I had one planned"

Warlock responds, "The security of the Void is not your way Titan"
......................................................................................................

BAMMM!!!

What do yall think that means?

Warlock knew Thanos would end up Re-Creating everything (his grand gesture)
because like he told Thanos:

"I understand you, better than, perhaps, you do yourself,
why I have trusted you so many times in the past"

"The security of the Void is not your way Titan"

Precisely, Thanos doesn't wanna rule over nothing, a Void. smile
......................................................................................................

IMO,
it's quite conceivable
that Thanos (subconsciously) allowed Death and Warlock to survive for said reasons.

Death for love ...

and Warlock for This .. to witness This:

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/1706/mute0619xx9.th.jpg

leonidas
well, the heart was bound to creation, toaa supposedly left it lying around for thanos to use, therefore it seems that thanos was destined to find it (something thanos himself seems to acknowledge when he figures out toaa's 'plan' for him), which would mean the heart and thanos's use of it was writ in destiny's pages. as such, thanos is NOT above being subject to destiny -- even WITH the heart. at least not in his manifetsed incarnation. stands to reason he was also destined to forfeit the heart. further cause to believe thanos is subject to destiny.

but . . . what could destiny DO to him though? no idea.

talking about destroying an m-body has little relevence in this case though because we have no idea if m-bodies are how concepts are embodied in dc. unless someone has evidence i don't know about. perhaps he CAN destroy their forms only to have them remake them instants later none-the-worse-for-wear.

stands to reason if thanos DID wipe out the concepts, he would subsequently erase his 'humanity' since he never really gave it up -- thanos never showed to be beyond the concepts the endless embody. what would that leave? empty power? COULD thanos 'will' himself beyond the concepts? beats me, but such an incarnation would be difficult to envisage and i'm not at all sure toaa would have been willing to allow him to do such a thing.

meh, i could see some weird sh!t happening if this match ever took. smile place.

King Kandy
Actually it has been proven. Dream said that Lucifer could destroy him, and another aspect with a different personality would take over. It actually happened to Despair once, so it wasn't just speculation. The aspects aren't particularly difficult to destroy.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Mr Master
Only an absolute supreme being can stalemate the Heart. smile
If Destiny is below the Presence,
Destiny is below THOTI.

btw. THOTI absorbs Concepts completely, not just aspects/m-bodies.

Thanos turned all existence into a Void,
no Time/Space, nothing remained.

quanchi112
When have the Endless fought a being anyways?

leonidas
Originally posted by Mr Master
If Destiny is below the Presence,
Destiny is below THOTI.

btw. THOTI absorbs Concepts completely, not just aspects/m-bodies.

Thanos turned all existence into a Void,
no Time/Space, nothing remained.

not 'all of existence'. he left some behind. if he couldn't even use the heart to overcome his own subconscious DESIRE, then he himself -- whether he destroyed them 'everywhere else' or not -- would still be subject to the concepts the endless embody.

which is why i said the only way for him to 'truly' overcome them would be to forfeit his own mortality and become something 'beyond' the concepts. could he will himself to be 'above the concepts'? i guess if this is toaa's power. however, if he remains as he is, even if he destroyed them everywhere else, they would STILL exist within him.

and i believe the words in destiny's book are said to be written by the presence which would make thanos of course, subject to them. smile

kevdude
Originally posted by leonidas
not 'all of existence'. he left some behind. if he couldn't even use the heart to overcome his own subconscious DESIRE, then he himself -- whether he destroyed them 'everywhere else' or not -- would still be subject to the concepts the endless embody.

which is why i said the only way for him to 'truly' overcome them would be to forfeit his own mortality and become something 'beyond' the concepts. could he will himself to be 'above the concepts'? i guess if this is toaa's power. however, if he remains as he is, even if he destroyed them everywhere else, they would STILL exist within him.

and i believe the words in destiny's book are said to be written by the presence which would make thanos of course, subject to them. smile

very well said smile

Air Legend
Originally posted by leonidas
not 'all of existence'. he left some behind. if he couldn't even use the heart to overcome his own subconscious DESIRE, then he himself -- whether he destroyed them 'everywhere else' or not -- would still be subject to the concepts the endless embody.

which is why i said the only way for him to 'truly' overcome them would be to forfeit his own mortality and become something 'beyond' the concepts. could he will himself to be 'above the concepts'? i guess if this is toaa's power. however, if he remains as he is, even if he destroyed them everywhere else, they would STILL exist within him.

and i believe the words in destiny's book are said to be written by the presence which would make thanos of course, subject to them. smile
Actually, God is above concepts such as dream, desire, hate, love, etc. cuz he created them in the first place.

Thanos rewrites the book and flicks Endless out of existence.

quanchi112
Originally posted by quanchi112
When have the Endless fought a being anyways? Again anyone even arguing for the endless at least tell me of anyone they have owned.

Mr Master
Originally posted by leonidas
not 'all of existence'. he left some behind. if he couldn't even use the heart to overcome his own subconscious DESIRE, then he himself -- whether he destroyed them 'everywhere else' or not -- would still be subject to the concepts the endless embody.

which is why i said the only way for him to 'truly' overcome them would be to forfeit his own mortality and become something 'beyond' the concepts. could he will himself to be 'above the concepts'? i guess if this is toaa's power. however, if he remains as he is, even if he destroyed them everywhere else, they would STILL exist within him.

and i believe the words in destiny's book are said to be written by the presence which would make thanos of course, subject to them.
But Thanos didn't remain himself,
Thanos became Toaa/god withIN the Marvel Omniverse. (above any concept)

In Marvel,
powers below the Supreme Being can cancel/re-order or create Concepts from scratch.

Reality manipulators do just that, play around with conceptualities of Reality.

In Marvel "Destiny" is guided by the real OAA/god (writerS/artistS-avatar)
but withIN the Omniverse "Destiny" spins in the hand of the LT.

http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/2936/ltrulescl3.th.jpg

"the Pulse of Creation reverberates through him, (LT) for he (LT) is its Heart,
ALPHA & OMEGA revolve on the Wheel of Destiny,
a Destiny SPUN by HIS (LT) mighty Hand"

.......................................................................................

In Marvel, the LT is in absolute control of "Destiny" (beginning/end of All things)

And LT got absorbed like a mote in a storm by Thanos.

Air Legend
This thread should be closed for spite in Thanos' favor.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Air Legend
Actually, God is above concepts such as dream, desire, hate, love, etc.
cuz he created them in the first place.

Thanos rewrites the book and flicks Endless out of existence.
I agree, some of yall are forgetting, Thanos became the Supreme Being of Marvel.

Nothing short of the Presence (or equal to) stalemates him, let alone defeat him.

TricksterPriest
Originally posted by Air Legend
Actually, God is above concepts such as dream, desire, hate, love, etc. cuz he created them in the first place.

Thanos rewrites the book and flicks Endless out of existence.

I was with you until this last sentence.

Nobody's arguing for them to win. The discussion, is about the concept of the endless themselves.

Erase or rewrite the book? laughing out loud You obviously do not understand the book. The Presence himself made that book and writes in it. Destiny is just the guy who handles it and reads it. Thanos is not overpowering The Presence.

quanchi112
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
I was with you until this last sentence.

Nobody's arguing for them to win. The discussion, is about the concept of the endless themselves.

Erase or rewrite the book? laughing out loud You obviously do not understand the book. The Presence himself made that book and writes in it. Destiny is just the guy who handles it and reads it. Thanos is not overpowering The Presence. The Presence could not overpower Thanos with the heart.

King Kandy
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
I was with you until this last sentence.

Nobody's arguing for them to win. The discussion, is about the concept of the endless themselves.

Erase or rewrite the book? laughing out loud You obviously do not understand the book. The Presence himself made that book and writes in it. Destiny is just the guy who handles it and reads it. Thanos is not overpowering The Presence.
Hey may not overpower the presence, but I doubt 100% of the Presence's power is in that book.

kevdude
Originally posted by quanchi112
The Presence could not overpower Thanos with the heart.

laughing out loud Quanchi. Anyway the book cannot be rewritten by nobody but say The Presence. Thanos is not going to undo the Book or harm it.

quanchi112
Originally posted by kevdude
laughing out loud Quanchi. Anyway the book cannot be rewritten by nobody but say The Presence. Thanos is not going to undo the Book or harm it. Uhm they are both supreme. And Thanos actually has feats to back him up. stick out tongue

Can the book actually fight anyone? laughing

Mr Master
In Marvel, the "Destiny" of all things, the "Destiny" of the Beginning and the End,
spins in the LT's hand, and the LT has absolute authority over it.

In other words, the Concept of "Destiny" is nothing to the LT.

The LT is nothing to Thanos/HOTI. 131

But that's Marvel, so I ain't gonna hate on brotha Destiny.
Still though, "God" > any Concept, any at all.

Air Legend
Originally posted by kevdude
laughing out loud Quanchi. Anyway the book cannot be rewritten by nobody but say The Presence. Thanos is not going to undo the Book or harm it.
What in the hell are you talking about? Lucifer ripped a page out of the book and burned it. Thanos would laugh in Destiny's face and rewrite the book in front of the Presence just to piss him off.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Mr Master
In Marvel, the "Destiny" of all things, the "Destiny" of the Beginning and the End,
spins in the LT's hand, and the LT has absolute authority over it.

In other words, theConcept of "Destiny" is nothing to the LT.

The LT is nothing to Thanos/HOTI. 131 In dc I guess you cant change destiny but in Marvel its no big thing. It makes sense to me. wink Thanos with the heart>>concept of destiny.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Air Legend
What the hell are you talking about? Lucifer ripped a page out of the book and burned it. Thanos would laugh in Destiny's face and rewrite the book in front of the Presence's face just to piss him off. Are you serious. laughing laughing

Pwned kevdude......badly.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Air Legend
What the hell are you talking about?
Lucifer ripped a page out of the book and burned it.
Thanos would laugh in Destiny's face and rewrite the book in front of the Presence's face just to piss him off.
Thanx for the update, see, if you didn't clear up that misleading info,
I'd walk away from this thread with fallacy to innocently pump in other threads,
which is why I always ask for proof.

kevdude
Originally posted by Air Legend
What in the hell are you talking about? Lucifer ripped a page out of the book and burned it. Thanos would laugh in Destiny's face and rewrite the book in front of the Presence's face just to piss him off.

That was what Destiny himself had planned and it saved everyone remember?? You cannot rewrite the book Air, you know that stick out tongue

quanchi112
Air legend could you drop a scan for us. Do you have this on disk?

kevdude
Originally posted by Mr Master
Thanx for the update, see, if you didn't clear up that misleading info,
I'd walk away from this thread with fallacy to innocently pump in other threads,
which is why I always ask for proof.

I have never once tried to mislead anyone here Master. confused

quanchi112
Kevdude why dont you show us a scan and prove what you claim here.

Air Legend
Originally posted by kevdude
That was what Destiny himself had planned and it saved everyone remember??
Doesn't change the fact that Lucifer ripped a page out and burnt it.
Originally posted by kevdude
You cannot rewrite the book Air, you know that stick out tongue
Thanos w/ the Heart can.

Mr Master
Originally posted by kevdude
I have never once tried to mislead anyone here Master.
I'm not sayin it's deliberate, sometimes it's done out of ignorance.
(not by you necessarily, it could be anyone, which is why we should research our own conclusions)

Air Legend
Originally posted by quanchi112
Air legend could you drop a scan for us. Do you have this on disk?
Nah. I own the book, but I left that volume at home. I only have volume 9 and 10 on me. Volume 11 (the last volume) is on the way since the book got lost, so they had to reorder it.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Air Legend
Nah. I own the book, but I left that volume at home. I only have volume 9 and 10 on me. Volume 11 (the last volume) is on the way since the book got lost, so they had to reorder it.
Tell me what issue it is, and I'll post it.

Air Legend
Originally posted by Mr Master
Tell me what issue it is, and I'll post it.
I'm not sure, but I know it's before issue 55 since that is where volume 9 starts.

Edit- Volume 8. 45 and 50-54. Most likely between 50-54.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Air Legend
I'm not sure, but I know it's before issue 55 since that is where volume 9 starts.

Edit- Volume 8. 45 and 50-54. Most likely between 50-54.
thumb up ... I'll see if I can find it.

tjcoady
Lucifer did rip out of a page of the Book and burn it.

However, that page did happen to say "Now Lucifer rips out of a page of the book of Destiny and burns it."

Destiny as much as says so.

Thanos could destroy each individual aspect of the Endless. But the Endless aren't just embodiments of the concepts themselves- they ARE the concepts. That's a major point in the Sandman. Morpheus is a "point of view" of Dreams. In order to truly "defeat" the Endless, Thanos would have to uncreate the universe.

Not saying that he couldn't with the THOTU- obviously he can. But the thing is, as long as Thanos still has desires or if Thanos dreams, they'd still exist- subject to his control, though.

you can't really "defeat" the Endless- it's kind of a concept that just doesn't make sense. You could destroy the individual aspects to your heart's content, but as long as you're "destroying" anything, Destruction still exists.

So basically, the point of this post is that, while you're right that the Endless, if they did battle with Thanos with the Heart, would lose. But it's kind of moot- it's like saying Thanos with the Heart could destroy the concept of "being."

Juntai
Originally posted by tjcoady
Lucifer did rip out of a page of the Book and burn it.

However, that page did happen to say "Now Lucifer rips out of a page of the book of Destiny and burns it."

Destiny as much as says so.

Thanos could destroy each individual aspect of the Endless. But the Endless aren't just embodiments of the concepts themselves- they ARE the concepts. That's a major point in the Sandman. Morpheus is a "point of view" of Dreams. In order to truly "defeat" the Endless, Thanos would have to uncreate the universe.

Not saying that he couldn't with the THOTU- obviously he can. But the thing is, as long as Thanos still has desires or if Thanos dreams, they'd still exist- subject to his control, though.

you can't really "defeat" the Endless- it's kind of a concept that just doesn't make sense. You could destroy the individual aspects to your heart's content, but as long as you're "destroying" anything, Destruction still exists.

So basically, the point of this post is that, while you're right that the Endless, if they did battle with Thanos with the Heart, would lose. But it's kind of moot- it's like saying Thanos with the Heart could destroy the concept of "being." thumb up

leonidas
iirc ripping the page from the book was what was SUPPOSED to happen (or we were meant to deduce such was the case). therefore, it was lucifer's destiny to tear out the page. therefore, lucifer himself was subject to destiny. and of course he is, since the presence WROTE the book.

the book is said to contain the 'universe' itself. decide on your own what that means in dc cosmology. that is the beg/mid/end -- it implies that EVERYTHING is pre-destined. it's the ultimate plot device. even lt would be subject to such a concept were it in existence in marvel. only a 'truly' omnipotent entity could write the book. and that is the presence.

i'll disagree with you mm when you say thanos became 'god'. god is omnipotent. thanos didn't even have the PERSONAL knowledge to realize his unconscious DESIRE kept warlock and the others alive. he perhaps had the POWER, but bearing the power did NOT make him omnipotent, clearly. you claim he was above concepts when the concept of his OWN desires was hidden from him. if he was still subject to them how exactly was he 'above them'?

again, COULD he somehow rewrite existence to not include these concepts? i guess, IF toaa actually wanted him to do so, but to be truly without them he would have to remove them from himself as well and assume the actual ROLE, and not just the 'power' of toaa.

leonidas
damnit! that's what i was trying to say! big grin

and well said. wink

Air Legend
Originally posted by tjcoady
Lucifer did rip out of a page of the Book and burn it.

However, that page did happen to say "Now Lucifer rips out of a page of the book of Destiny and burns it."

Destiny as much as says so.

Thanos could destroy each individual aspect of the Endless. But the Endless aren't just embodiments of the concepts themselves- they ARE the concepts. That's a major point in the Sandman. Morpheus is a "point of view" of Dreams. In order to truly "defeat" the Endless, Thanos would have to uncreate the universe.

Not saying that he couldn't with the THOTU- obviously he can. But the thing is, as long as Thanos still has desires or if Thanos dreams, they'd still exist- subject to his control, though.

you can't really "defeat" the Endless- it's kind of a concept that just doesn't make sense. You could destroy the individual aspects to your heart's content, but as long as you're "destroying" anything, Destruction still exists.

So basically, the point of this post is that, while you're right that the Endless, if they did battle with Thanos with the Heart, would lose. But it's kind of moot- it's like saying Thanos with the Heart could destroy the concept of "being."

Well if your going to use this kind of incoherent gobbledygook rambling like someone has done in this thread previously shifty, then I'll use some of similar fashion. Thanos became everything, YES IT SAID THAT ON PANEL, so essentially Dream, Endless, Death, etc. are just a part of him and since they are but a part of him, Thanos wins the match before it begins because he dictates what they'll do.

On the serious note and not using your skewed logic, Thanos HOTI is above concepts.

tjcoady
Originally posted by Air Legend
Well if your going to use this kind of incoherent gobbledygook rambling like someone has done in this thread previously shifty, then I'll use some of similar fashion. Thanos became everything, YES IT SAID THAT ON PANEL, so essentially Dream, Endless, Death, etc. are just a part of him and since they are but a part of him, Thanos wins the match before it begins because he dictates what they'll do.

On the serious note and not using your skewed logic, Thanos HOTI is above concepts.

I'm sorry. really no other way to put this. That just doesn't make sense.

Air Legend
Originally posted by leonidas
iirc ripping the page from the book was what was SUPPOSED to happen (or we were meant to deduce such was the case). therefore, it was lucifer's destiny to tear out the page. therefore, lucifer himself was subject to destiny. and of course he is, since the presence WROTE the book.
Doesn't matter. kevdude said the book couldn't be harmed and it was. smile

Mr Master
Originally posted by tjcoady
Lucifer did rip out of a page of the Book and burn it.

However, that page did happen to say "Now Lucifer rips out of a page of the book of Destiny and burns it."

Destiny as much as says so.

Thanos could destroy each individual aspect of the Endless. But the Endless aren't just embodiments of the concepts themselves- they ARE the concepts.
Well, that's the same understanding of the Marvel Concepts,
they are embodiments of the Concepts they personify/represent (as in ... Are)

No difference, and powers beneath THOTI have altered/erased/re-created Concepts.
Originally posted by tjcoady
That's a major point in the Sandman. Morpheus is a "point of view" of Dreams. In order to truly "defeat" the Endless, Thanos would have to uncreate the universe.

Not saying that he couldn't with the THOTU- obviously he can. But the thing is, as long as Thanos still has desires or if Thanos dreams, they'd still exist- subject to his control, though.
Concepts are only of consequence withIN whatever reality they're a part of.

Thanos doesn't have to uncreate the Universe,

just like Beyonder didn't have to un-create the Multiverse,
in order to erase the Concept of "Death" from Reality.

Or just like Thanos didn't have to un-create the Earth X Universe,
in order to erase "Universal Death" from that reality.
Originally posted by tjcoady
you can't really "defeat" the Endless- it's kind of a concept that just doesn't make sense. You could destroy the individual aspects to your heart's content, but as long as you're "destroying" anything, Destruction still exists.
The Concept of Destruction exists withIN Marvel aswell,
as do the other Concepts in some form or another.

Bottomline:

Concepts are easily manipulated byReality warpers (in Marvel)
The greater the range of influence the Warper has,
the greater the scale of the Concept's influence will the Warper control.

In this case,
we have Thanos/HOTI ...
one of several being that can completely erase any and all Concepts,
leaving behind a Void, where there is nothing, absolutely nothing,
not even Time, which "Destiny" needs to arrive at one's destiny.

Without Time, one's "destiny" would take for ever to be reach, no? smile
Originally posted by tjcoady
So basically, the point of this post is that, while you're right that the Endless, if they did battle with Thanos with the Heart, would lose. But it's kind of moot- it's like saying Thanos with the Heart could destroy the concept of "being."
One question, do you believe the Presence can destroy the Endless?

Air Legend
Originally posted by tjcoady
I'm sorry. really no other way to put this. That just doesn't make sense.
Lulz. Continue with your belief that God can't destroy a concept. Thanos on panel destroyed concepts, Classic Beyonder destroyed a concept (Death), and the Presence destroyed a concept...wait no he hasn't...Thanos HOTI and Beyonder>Presence. 313

Mr Master
Originally posted by leonidas

i'll disagree with you mm when you say thanos became 'god'.
Actually, you're disagreeing with Marvel comics, not me. smile
Originally posted by leonidas
god is omnipotent. thanos didn't even have the PERSONAL knowledge to realize his unconscious DESIRE kept warlock and the others alive. he perhaps had the POWER, but bearing the power did NOT make him omnipotent, clearly. you claim he was above concepts when the concept of his OWN desires was hidden from him. if he was still subject to them how exactly was he 'above them'?
I love ya L, but this all speculation.

Marvel stated he became "God" On Panel, and in official Bios.

Outside logic ain't gonna change that.
Originally posted by leonidas
again, COULD he somehow rewrite existence to not include these concepts? i guess, IF toaa actually wanted him to do so, but to be truly without them he would have to remove them from himself as well and assume the actual ROLE, and not just the 'power' of toaa.
Thanos became the "Supreme Being" ... he possessed the "Power Supreme"
Thanos became "God" .. the "Almighty" ... "He"

Eternity and the LT acknowledged this to be a fact.

Warlock also certified this claim, aswell as Marvel.com, and the bios.

Mr Master
Thanos became One with All (the Omniverse)

................................................................................

http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/4411/th10kz1.th.jpg

"I was Everything ... bonded to Omni-Reality"

................................................................................

http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/8319/th11mq7.th.jpg
"I was a grain of sand in a distant Future" (Other TimelineS/UniverseS)

"My Awareness continued to expand beyond the material and the Abstract,

into Realms I never suspected even existed"


(this is the same Thanos that became the entire 616 Universe TWICE before)

................................................................................

http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/5797/th2jt0.th.jpg

"I was a grain of sand in a Distant Future"


Thanos was connected to other TimelineS evidently

This is further proof Thanos is talking about everything, ans in "Everything"

................................................................................

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/8570/th3jq7.th.jpg

"I was Everything"


Ain't that the truth.

................................................................................

Mr Master
...........................................................................................................

Thor says,

http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/2443/th12st8.th.jpg

"Thanos has usurped the Power Supreme and now reigns over All Reality"

...........................................................................................................


Eternity says,

http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/2928/th15db3.th.jpg

"I demand you relinquish the Supreme Power you have stolen"

Thanos replies,

"more like GIVEN to me"

...........................................................................................................


Thanos says,

http://img355.imageshack.us/img355/8813/th16rb9.th.jpg

"Your Lord & Master(Toaa/god) has abandoned you Eternity"

...........................................................................................................


Thanos says,

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/9954/th17wg4.th.jpg

"Eternity, you must sense that Everything the Almighty was I now am,

did you ever dare demand anything from Him"


Eternity RESPONDS,

No, but .... (Eternity is actually acknowledging that Thanos speaks the truth)

...........................................................................................................

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/500/th18br2.th.jpg

"And I, like He was, am now the Author of All That Will Be ...

my will is Supreme,

I will not demand worship, as my predecessor expected"

...........................................................................................................

Mr Master
.............................................................................

Like I said, it was also confirmed in offficial handbook Bios:

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/2069/akbioyu7.th.jpg

"Thanos eradicated the Order, they ... Pronounced him GOD" ...

.............................................................................


THOTI is:

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/7385/th1mn4.th.jpg

"The Source from which all other power throughout Time & Space springs"

.............................................................................


It made Thanos "SUPREME"

http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/39/t2lo0.th.jpg

.............................................................................


It made him the Everything ... of All things:

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/3922/43563012fv8.th.jpg

"How dare these cretins defy their Supreme Being?

Was I not Now the End-All and Be-All of Reality?

Their very existence was by My Whim"

.............................................................................

You ain't lying baby:

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/1825/teb9.th.jpg

Galan007
Originally posted by Juntai
He also didn't have his items of power, since he put most of his power into his bag of dust and his mask.


Thanos, however all powerful, would probably still be subject to things like Desire, Dream, Destiny, etc. In fact, a lot of these very basic ideals like Desire and what took him as far as he did.

In pure power he's probably above them, but the endless make the realities go around, and exist until the very last vestiges of reality are gone. So in a technical manner, as long as he existed, so would they. And if we say it doesn't work like that because they're from DC or some bla bla bla, then he would hold no power over them either.


But a lot of that is due to purpose more-so than power, Thanos is the more powerful here. I agree. thumb up

When I read the part in bold,
it made me think of the instance where Morpheus shaped an entire reality from the dream of some animal, . laughing out loud

King Kandy
Let me just say this: Thanos does not need to hurt the concepts to win this.

But if necesary, he has PROVEN the power to do so.

Mindset
Just wondering, why do you call it THOTI?

Galan007
Originally posted by Mindset
Just wondering, why do you call it THOTI?

T = The
H = Heart
O = Of
T = The
I = Infinite



smile

Mindset
Why do you use infinite instead of universe? confused

Galan007
Originally posted by Mindset
Why do you use infinite instead of universe? confused because it's true name ended with 'Infinite' -- not 'Universe'..

smile

Mindset
Your mom is infinite.

tjcoady
Originally posted by Galan007
I agree. thumb up

When I read the part in bold,
it made me think of the instance where Morpheus shaped an entire reality from the dream of some animal, . laughing out loud

Well, to be utterly specific, that did require all of the cats to dream of it simultaneously.

I liked that issue though. It played into the whole undercurrent of how the Endless are both the concepts their named after, as well as the antithesis.... like Death is also Life, Destruction is also Creation, Dream is also Reality.

Plus those cats were adorable.

Galan007
Originally posted by Mindset
Your mom is infinite. Good one? jr_erm02

Mindset
love

Galan007
Originally posted by tjcoady
Well, to be utterly specific, that did require all of the cats to dream of it simultaneously.

I liked that issue though. It played into the whole undercurrent of how the Endless are both the concepts their named after, as well as the antithesis.... like Death is also Life, Destruction is also Creation, Dream is also Reality.thumb up

Originally posted by tjcoady
Plus those cats were adorable. laughing out loud

King Kandy
AHAHA!! Turns out Thanos isn't bound by destiny!

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/1637/other10nk0.jpg

kevdude
Originally posted by King Kandy
AHAHA!! Turns out Thanos isn't bound by destiny!

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/1637/other10nk0.jpg

Hasn't it been said that The Living Tribunal can't see his future either?

Mindset
Can LT see anyone's future?

King Kandy
Originally posted by Mindset
Can LT see anyone's future?
Yes he can. I will find the scan.

King Kandy
http://img182.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lt2fa1.jpg

bobbi
N.B. I kinda turned this into a philosophy discussion so read at your own discretion...

Originally posted by Mr Master
Well, that's the same understanding of the Marvel Concepts,
they are embodiments of the Concepts they personify/represent (as in ... Are)

I'm not sure if you just aren't expressing yourself well enough but if marvel concepts are embodiments of concepts or represent them then they aren't them. You represent something else, therefore you aren't that something else. Not completely anyway. In DC, they made it seem that the endless ARE the something else. not a representation not an embodiment. Their end would mean an end to all death, dreams, destruction, etc etc.

If Thanos was above all those things then he'd be able to destroy them but since he still seemed to act like an actual person and desired things, he doesn't seem above them. If he was entirely god (and not just the power of god) he technically shouldn't have any of those things. God doesn't exactly "want" anything to happen. We anthropomorphize it as God having a plan and wanting things to happen but thats just cus thats how we understand things. God wants things just as much as a rock wants to be a rock. This probable sounds even more like gobbly gook or whatever than previous posts (which btw made perfect sense to me) but that's just my interpretation.

Having more power doesn't put you above concepts (not representations of concepts, but the concepts themselves as defined by a non-comic dictionary). You'd basically have to be omniscient to do that and abandon any type of "psyche" as we conceive it. Thanos didn't seem to do that. Thanos can obviously destroy the "point of view" of Morpheus and the rest but the concepts are different.
(Although I don't think it's as easy as it seems...Morpheus died because he chose too and we have no info on how Despair died. The Fates were able to hurt him but it was mentioned that a lot of that was because of "rules" Morpheus chose to obey. All we know is that Morpheus is weaker than Lucifer but we can't be sure how strong the other endless are compared to him.)

I'm probably putting my own definition of God into this way too much since the Presence and all that haven't really been shown to be that complicated but Sandman has tended to be more complicated than mainstream comics so discussion of the characters in it demands equal complexity.

Originally posted by Mr Master

In this case,
we have Thanos/HOTI ...
one of several being that can completely erase any and all Concepts,
leaving behind a Void, where there is nothing, absolutely nothing,
not even Time, which "Destiny" needs to arrive at one's destiny.

Without Time, one's "destiny" would take for ever to be reach, no? smile


Well if anything is moving/thinking at all that would mean there is some sort of time going on even if it is local to just god and his thoughts. So if thanos is still doing anything some concept of time has to be passing at least for him.

(Time is also one of those things which is just a human conception. If we take the idea of predestination, as seems to be the case in DC, it's pretty much a wrong conception...but we won't go into that unless we have to.)

quanchi112
Originally posted by King Kandy
AHAHA!! Turns out Thanos isn't bound by destiny!

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/1637/other10nk0.jpg Thanos is truly one of those badass characters that cant be hindered even by destiny. big grin

leonidas
omnipotence=infallibility

thanos with the heart was NOT infallible (he was unable to fix the problem WITHOUT resetting everything, he was unaware of his own unconscious desires, there are many other examples of his retaining his emotions), therefore he was NOT omnipotent.

mm, you can scan blitz all you'd like. regardless of what was SAID by characters, what was SHOWN contradicts it.

thanos may have had infinite POWER (though we'll forever disagree with what he DID with it smile ) but he himself was not omnipotent. the concepts we are discussing remained manifested within him.

and kk -- destiny in dc is different from destiny in marvel. destiny, in this case, is manifest in the book which is written by the presence. that's above lt and everything save toaa -- which thanos was NOT. he was a mortal using some of toaa's power. big difference.

Unnatural-POWER
Originally posted by leonidas
omnipotence=infallibility

thanos with the heart was NOT infallible (he was unable to fix the problem WITHOUT resetting everything, he was unaware of his own unconscious desires, there are many other examples of his retaining his emotions), therefore he was NOT omnipotent.

mm, you can scan blitz all you'd like. regardless of what was SAID by characters, what was SHOWN contradicts it.

thanos may have had infinite POWER (though we'll forever disagree with what he DID with it smile ) but he himself was not omnipotent. the concepts we are discussing remained manifested within him.

and kk -- destiny in dc is different from destiny in marvel. destiny, in this case, is manifest in the book which is written by the presence. that's above lt and everything save toaa -- which thanos was NOT. he was a mortal using some of toaa's power. big difference.

Are you confusing omnipotence with omniscience my friend?

Omnipotent = Absolute Power
Omniscience = Absolute Knowledge

He may not have had absolute knowledge and understanding, but the one single thing that cannot be debated is that he had absolute power, as stated on panel.

celestialdemon
I know the futures that the LT can't see are those of the Infinity Gem holders. Back when the Watch first started, Eternity asked the LT if Thanos could be trusted as guardian of the reality gem. The LT stated he didn't know if any of the Watch could be trusted.

leonidas
Originally posted by Unnatural-POWER
Are you confusing omnipotence with omniscience my friend?

Omnipotent = Absolute Power
Omniscience = Absolute Knowledge

He may not have had absolute knowledge and understanding, but the one single thing that cannot be debated is that he had absolute power, as stated on panel.

with ultimate power, comes ultimate knowledge -- or it could. using his power, thanos could simply will himself to know everything.

that implies he either never bothered to do that (which again suggests he is still subject to his 'mortal' concepts) or his power was NOT infinite. stands to reason that toaa wouldn't give him ALL his power, but that's speculation, as is the stance that he DID have all toaa's power. smile

regardless, it's been an interesting discussion. smile

Galan007
Originally posted by celestialdemon
I know the futures that the LT can't see are those of the Infinity Gem holders. Back when the Watch first started, Eternity asked the LT if Thanos could be trusted as guardian of the reality gem. The LT stated he didn't know if any of the Watch could be trusted. thumb up


-LT-
"Can any of the Infinity Watch be trusted? This I do not know":

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/511/lt1om5.th.jpg


Is LT 'truly' omniscient? Well.... Apparently not. srug

Unnatural-POWER
Originally posted by leonidas
with ultimate power, comes ultimate knowledge -- or it could. using his power, thanos could simply will himself to know everything.

that implies he either never bothered to do that (which again suggests he is still subject to his 'mortal' concepts) or his power was NOT infinite. stands to reason that toaa wouldn't give him ALL his power, but that's speculation, as is the stance that he DID have all toaa's power. smile

regardless, it's been an interesting discussion. smile

I see your point smile

But i dont think he could 'will' himself omniscience, or maybe he could? Im not convinced.

leonidas
Originally posted by Unnatural-POWER
I see your point smile

But i dont think he could 'will' himself omniscience, or maybe he could? Im not convinced.

your ability to be convinced would be based on your assumption of his power level. if his power truly IS unlimited (which i do not believe) then it is only logical to say that NO feat would be beyond him. (aside from silly paradoxical feats like "could thanos create a rock heavy enough that even he could not lift!" laughing out loud ) that would include his ability to endow himself with omniscience. smile

because i don't think his power was unlimited, i do not think he was omnipotent nor omniscient.

and good find galan. imo, lt would fall squarely in the middle of the pages of destiny's book if such a thing existed in the confines of marvel.

Unnatural-POWER
Originally posted by leonidas
your ability to be convinced would be based on your assumption of his power level. if his power truly IS unlimited (which i do not believe) then it is only logical to say that NO feat would be beyond him. (aside from silly paradoxical feats like "could thanos create a rock heavy enough that even he could not lift!" laughing out loud ) that would include his ability to endow himself with omniscience. smile

because i don't think his power was unlimited, i do not think he was omnipotent nor omniscient.

and good find galan. imo, lt would fall squarely in the middle of the pages of destiny's book if such a thing existed in the confines of marvel.

Only thing we have to go by is the evidence stating Thanos had the power of the almighty.
And he certainly wasnt omniscient because he was unaware of the whole manipulation.

The rest is basically speculation wouldnt you agree?

leonidas
Originally posted by Unnatural-POWER
The rest is basically speculation wouldnt you agree?

absolutely.

but fun to discuss nonetheless. smile

Unnatural-POWER
Originally posted by leonidas
absolutely.

but fun to discuss nonetheless. smile

I agree with this entirely smile

Mr Master
Originally posted by bobbi
N.B. I kinda turned this into a philosophy discussion so read at your own discretion...

I'm not sure if you just aren't expressing yourself well enough but if marvel concepts are embodiments of concepts or represent them then they aren't them. You represent something else, therefore you aren't that something else. Not completely anyway.
The rest of this speech is eloquent but inconsequential.

The Abstract entites are the Concepts they personify,
that's why they embody them.

Anywho,
erase Eterntiy, you erase the concept of Time across creation.
erase Infinity, you erased the concept of Space across creation.
this is why when Beyonder erased the embodiment (hooded skeleton) od Death,
the Concept of Death became meaningless in creation.

So again,
Thanos/THOTI would be too much,
there are much weaker being than the Heart,
that can rearrange/erase/or even create from scratch - Concepts, All the Concepts.

TricksterPriest
Originally posted by Mr Master
The rest of this speech is eloquent but inconsequential.

The Abstract entites are the Concepts they personify,
that's why they embody them.

Anywho,
erase Eterntiy, you erase the concept of Time across creation.
erase Infinity, you erased the concept of Space across creation.
this is why when Beyonder erased the embodiment (hooded skeleton) od Death,
the Concept of Death became meaningless in creation.

So again,
Thanos/THOTI would be too much,
there are much weaker being than the Heart,
that can rearrange/erase/or even create from scratch - Concepts, All the Concepts.

Doesn't work that way in DC.

Inhuman
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Doesn't work that way in DC.

In DC, Earth heroes fight abstracts and celestial beings often and usually win.
You would never see Spiderman landing a punch on the LT.

Mr Master
Originally posted by leonidas
thanos with the heart was NOT infallible
(he was unable to fix the problem WITHOUT resetting everything
That was the only way to fix the problem.

That was the way the story was written.

If you can produce one scan that states,
Thanos' power was limited, and so he couldn't fix the flaw,
then that's something,
but how could there have been a story, if Thanos didn't have to erase everything,
I mean, that was the whole point of story.
Originally posted by leonidas
he was unaware of his own unconscious desires
Where are you getting this from?
Originally posted by leonidas
there are many other examples of his retaining his emotions)
Really? "many?" ... Name me 3.
Originally posted by leonidas
therefore he was NOT omnipotent.
Marvel >>> any and all other opinions.
Originally posted by leonidas
mm, you can scan blitz all you'd like.
regardless of what was SAID by characters, what was SHOWN contradicts it.
As you wish.
Originally posted by leonidas
thanos may have had infinite POWER
(though we'll forever disagree with what he DID with it
but he himself was not omnipotent.
the concepts we are discussing remained manifested within him.
Anywho, I went through this with nvr too many times,
if you believe he wasn't omnipotent or he wasn't god,
after I presented On Panel depictions/statements, and official bio references,
well ... as you wish. smile
Originally posted by leonidas
destiny, in this case, is manifest in the book which is written by the presence. that's above lt and everything save toaa -- which thanos was NOT.
he was a mortal using some of toaa's power. big difference.
Ok, time to split.

Mr Master
.............................................................................................

Galan said it best:

Originally posted by Galan007

The way I see it ...

The "old man" was a comic character,

and as such was God within the world of comics.

When Thanos usurped THOTI, he too became God withIN comics.


So imo,

Thanos = "the little old man"..

thumb up ... Who ever read the End: Marvel, cannot deny this.

But whoever disagrees ... as you wish. stoned

Mr Master
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Doesn't work that way in DC.
Can the Presence destroy a concept in DC?

Also, when Mxy erased DC, (he left an absolute of Void)
do you believe there were still Concepts around?

Mr Master
Originally posted by Galan007

-LT-
"Can any of the Infinity Watch be trusted? This I do not know":

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/511/lt1om5.th.jpg

Is LT 'truly' omniscient? Well.... Apparently not.
Based on that one moment, you believe we should null the LT's history?

If it takes one panel to make the LT less than Omniscient,
what would Ten scans depicting/stating that the LT is Omniscient do?

I mean,
that scan makes the LT less than Omniscient (concerning the Infinity Watch that is)

But then we have this scan (where the Writer describes the LT not only like)

"The Tribunal is serene in His Omnipotence"

http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/2936/ltrulescl3.th.jpg

"the Pulse of Creation reverberates through him, (LT) for he (LT) is its Heart,
ALPHA & OMEGA revolve on the Wheel of Destiny,
a Destiny SPUN by HIS (LT) mighty Hand"

.......................................................................................

But the "Destiny" of the Beginning and the End of All things are in his control.

.......................................................................................


Btw.

The LT does not know the "destiny' of Warlock & the Watch ... published 1992.

The LT spins the "destiny" of all things Marvel in one hand... published 1997.

smile

kevdude
Originally posted by Mr Master
Based on that one moment, you believe we should null the LT's history?

If it takes one panel to make the LT less than Omniscient,
what would Ten scans depicting/stating that the LT is Omniscient do?

I mean,
that scan makes the LT less than Omniscient (concerning the Infinity Watch that is)

But then we have this scan (where the Writer describes the LT not only like)

"The Tribunal is serene in His Omnipotence"

http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/2936/ltrulescl3.th.jpg

"the Pulse of Creation reverberates through him, (LT) for he (LT) is its Heart,
ALPHA & OMEGA revolve on the Wheel of Destiny,
a Destiny SPUN by HIS (LT) mighty Hand"

.......................................................................................

But the "Destiny" of the Beginning and the End of All things are in his control.

.......................................................................................


Btw.

The LT does not know the "destiny' of Warlock & the Watch ... published 1992.

The LT spins the "destiny" of all things Marvel in one hand... published 1997.

smile

I'd like to know when it was that Thanos said even Marvels destiny on which LT spins does not know about his future, it was posted in this somewhere I think, that would be 2 against 1 that LT does not know of Thanos future, even in the End it would seem this would be true as LT couldn't stop Thanos.

Mr Master
Originally posted by kevdude
I'd like to know when it was that Thanos said even Marvels destiny on which LT spins does not know about his future, it was posted in this somewhere I think
That was back in 1992,
and it has no bearing on the LT, it has nothing to do with the LT.

So I really don't know how you made the connection.
Originally posted by kevdude
that would be 2 against 1 that LT does not know of Thanos future
Nah, you were just misleading yourself,
please ask before you invent these scenarios ... "that would make 2" whatever.
Originally posted by kevdude
even in the End it would seem this would be true as LT couldn't stop Thanos.
Right, the LT could not stop the "Almighty" .. "God" ... "He" the "Supreme Power"
the status/power/authority of Toaa/god withIN the Omniverse.

So this makes the LT limited. dontgetit

bobbi
Originally posted by leonidas
there are many other examples of his retaining his emotions)

Originally posted by Mr Master

Really? "many?" ... Name me 3.


Well I can find 3 right in this thread...

http://img90.imageshack.us/my.php?image=teb9.jpg

thats fury

http://img253.imageshack.us/my.php?image=th10kz1.jpg

that's amazement. Although you might say he was gaining the knowledge of being everything since he was embracing and not embraced so you could say he wasn't completely "god" yet.

http://img338.imageshack.us/my.php?image=43563012fv8.jpg

and now he's angered ("strangely" at that) and had rage that was "uncontrollable".

That was surprisingly easy...

Mr Master
Originally posted by bobbi
Well I can find 3 right in this thread...

http://img90.imageshack.us/my.php?image=teb9.jpg

thats fury

http://img253.imageshack.us/my.php?image=th10kz1.jpg

http://img338.imageshack.us/my.php?image=43563012fv8.jpg

and now he's angered ("strangely" at that) and had rage that was "uncontrollable".
Wait, so just cause Thanos got pissed, he was infallible? laughing out loud
(that's what was trying to be said ... don't know if you were following)

In any case, so the Presence,
who actually has a personified "Wrathful" aspect must be infallible too.

Please dogs.

Originally posted by bobbi
that's amazement. Although you might say he was gaining the knowledge of being everything since he was embracing and not embraced so you could say he wasn't completely "god" yet.
Exactly, so this is inconsequential.
Originally posted by bobbi
That was surprisingly easy...
You thought so, didn't ya.

bobbi
The only thing you asked was if he had emotions and u implied he didn't, challenging someone to post times he did. That's what I did and thats all i wanted to prove by posting those.

If you wanted to say having emotions has nothing to do with omnipotence than you should have said that instead of saying show me examples of when he had emotions.


If you read my first post that would explain my view on the whole "wrathful" aspects and all that. Although you could also say that since those personifications are pretty much separate entities the emotions aren't really part of god but part of the personification (hence personification. applying human attributes to something). Kinda like the Concepts and their personifications if you'd like to make that connection.

But again, not the point i was trying to make.

bobbi
Oh and just so you know, I don't think having emotions necessarily makes you fallible.

Galan007
Originally posted by Mr Master
Based on that one moment, you believe we should null the LT's history? Did you miss the reason why I posted that scan?

CD brought up that particular instance from Infinity Watch -- I merely remarked with that particular instance, LT wasn't 'truly' omniscient, because.... well..... he wasn't. srsly

This statement had no bearing on what I believe LT to be nowadays...


But what we can discern in the scan I posted from '92, and the scan you posted from '97... is LT must have received some sort of 'power/knowledge-boost' between those time periods. . smile

TricksterPriest
"Right, the LT could not stop the "Almighty" .. "God" ... "He" the "Supreme Power"
the status/power/authority of Toaa/god withIN the Omniverse.

So this makes the LT limited."

Well..........yes. It does make him limited. And it pretty much shows that TOAA is the only true infinite power in marvel.

Mr Master
Originally posted by bobbi
The only thing you asked was if he had emotions and u implied he didn't, challenging someone to post times he did.
That's what I did and thats all i wanted to prove by posting those.
I see, I thought you were presenting Thanos' anger as a reason for fallibility,.

My bad.
Originally posted by bobbi
If you wanted to say having emotions has nothing to do with omnipotence
than you should have said that instead of saying show me examples of when he had emotions.
Yea, I got it.
Originally posted by bobbi
If you read my first post that would explain my view on the whole "wrathful" aspects and all that.
Although you could also say that since those personifications are pretty much separate entities the emotions aren't really part of god
but part of the personification
(hence personification. applying human attributes to something).
Kinda like the Concepts and their personifications if you'd like to make that connection.
I disagree.

Btw. In Marvel, Toaa/god (Writers/Artists) are based on real human beings (full of emotions)

In fact, Toaa/god, are so human,
that they don't even know what's gonna happen next
until they conceive it and Draw it on Paper.

In other words,
the WriterS are responsible for
the development (what's conceived) which would be "destiny/fate" at work,
the ArtistS are responsible for
the creation of Reality on panel (what's drawn) which would be "perception" at work,
the Canvas (paper) ... is the Omniverse "realization" at work.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Galan007
Did you miss the reason why I posted that scan?
You know I'm thorough.
Originally posted by Galan007
CD brought up that particular instance from Infinity Watch -- I merely remarked with that particular instance, LT wasn't 'truly' omniscient, because.... well..... he wasn't.

This statement had no bearing on what I believe LT to be nowadays...
You probably didn't mean it the other way,
but your post made it sound the other way.

You asked and answered yourself,
"is the LT 'truly' omniscient? Well....Apparently not"

This is referring to the Present, with no indication otherwise.


I just wanted to clear that up, you know you're a true debater brother G,
so in order to prevent mis-leading info to spread,
you have to be clear and thorough, otherwise they'll mis-understand you.

You feel me?
Originally posted by Galan007
But what we can discern in the scan I posted from '92, and the scan you posted from '97... is LT must have received some sort of 'power/knowledge-boost' between those time periods. .
I'm not sure,
perhaps he only lacked absolute omniscience at the time,
when it concerned the Infinity Watch.

Because the LT has been depicted since 1967 as being omniscient:

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/2725/lt1kx9.th.jpg

"Question not my infinite Wisdom"


Wisdom: means to Know/Knowledge ....
an infinity of "wisdom" would mean to know everything.

....................................................................................................

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/609/lt2wi1.th.jpg

"One who is the final arbiter of Fate"


Here the LT is presented as the authority of Destiny itself.

Galan007
Originally posted by Mr Master
I'm not sure,
perhaps he only lacked absolute omniscience at the time,
when it concerned the Infinity Watch.

Because the LT has been depicted since 1967 as being omniscient:

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/2725/lt1kx9.th.jpg

"Question not my infinite Wisdom" But we know he didn't have 'infinite' wisdom in '92, because he was unsure whether or not the IW were trustworthy...

Sure he may have known ALL else -- but due to that one panel, we know for sure he was not 'truly' omniscient at the time...

Fast-forward to nowadays,
in which LT is apparently 'truly' omniscient -- so it only stands to reason that his power, and/or knowledge, has certainly expanded in some way..

Unless you believe he would still have questions regarding the IW. lol

celestialdemon
The only thing I can think of is at the time the statements were made about the LT being omniscient, there were no IG gems guardians, which meant he could see everything. But this is solely my opinion. I don't have anything to back it up.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Galan007
But we know he didn't have 'infinite' wisdom in '92,
because he was unsure whether or not the IW were trustworthy...
I'd say he wasn't omniscient ONLY concerning the IW in that one issue.
Originally posted by Galan007
Sure he may have known ALL else -- but due to that one panel,
we know for sure he was not 'truly' omniscient at the time...
In that one issue? I agree.
Originally posted by Galan007
Fast-forward to nowadays,
in which LT is apparently 'truly' omniscient --
so it only stands to reason that his power, and/or knowledge,
has certainly expanded in some way..
But if we back-track to 1967 the LT is Omniscient.

So his knowledge must've been decreased first, then incresed again.

Btw. I doubt that's the case,
imo, the IW, at the time were outside the omniscient perception of the LT,
just like they were beyond Eternity's influence.

But it's quite clear, in many depictions before and after 92'
the LT was, and is Omniscient.
Originally posted by Galan007
Unless you believe he would still have questions regarding the IW. lol
laughing out loud ... I believe that was a self contained statement,
that contradicts the LT's scale of knowledge, before 92' and after 92'

.......................................................................

Bah, as long as he's Omniscient now. mwahaha

Galan007
Originally posted by Mr Master
I'd say he wasn't omniscient ONLY concerning the IW in that one issue.

In that one issue? I agree.

But if we back-track to 1967 the LT is Omniscient.

So his knowledge must've been decreased first, then incresed again.

Btw. I doubt that's the case,
imo, the IW, at the time were outside the omniscient perception of the LT,
just like they were beyond Eternity's influence.

But it's quite clear, in many depictions before and after 92'
the LT was, and is Omniscient.

laughing out loud ... I believe that was a self contained statement,
that contradicts the LT's scale of knowledge, before 92' and after 92'

.......................................................................

Bah, as long as he's Omniscient now. mwahaha Agreed.

In '92 LT knew ALL, with the exception of IW factoids ..

Nowadays,
He simply is what he is. smile

Mr Master
Originally posted by celestialdemon
The only thing I can think of is at the time the statements were made about the LT being omniscient, there were no IG gems guardians,
which meant he could see everything.
That's actually a good point.

But if that was the case, it was definitely changed,
cause in 97' we learned,
that the LT spins the Destiny of the Alpha and Omega in one hand.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Galan007
Agreed.

In '92 LT more than likely knew ALL, with the exception of IW factoids ..
laughing out loud ... I was shaking my head while I wrote that post, because it is ridiculous.
Originally posted by Galan007
Nowadays,
He simply is what he is.
thumb up That is the bottom line.

leonidas
so . . . he wasn't really omnipotent because the story needed him NOT to be? no

you can cite story purposes all you'd like, it doesn't change the fact that his 'omnipotence' was repeatedly refuted by his thoughts and actions. the story is one of the worst ever written by marvel BECAUSE of the ridiculous contradictions. you say thanos was omnipotent because of his words and the words of others in the story. omnipotence by definition implies omniscience and infallibility -- he has the power to know all and see all.

he was anything BUT either of those things throughout that silly series. you can't say -- "well, he WOULD have been omnipotent if the story didn't require him to HAVE to fail." failure and omnipotence are by definition mutually exclusive. he failed, therefore he was not omnipotent. there is no gray area.

i've repeatedly said that he may have possessed unlimited power (though that is also shown to be untrue because again, he FAILED to fix the problem and was FORCED to resort to resetting things) but he was not omnipotent (ie--by definition INCAPABLE of failing at ANYTHING). he failed to control his temper. he failed to understand until later that he was being played by toaa, he failed to perceive the army gathering against him. he despaired, was surprised, etc . . . the story itself is a story of REDEMPTION. one who is truly omnipotent does not REQUIRE redemption. thanos retained his sense of mortality/humanity throughout the series. he was a mortal being wielding a lot of power. he HAD to retain his mortality for the sake of the story. no reader can sympathize with a 'truly' omnipotent being. as such, BECAUSE of his mortality, he was NOT omnipotent.

as far as showing you a direct quote or line saying he was limited -- well, ironically, it says thanos was limited EXACTLY the same number of times it says he "destroyed the multiverse and omniverse". wink you can't look at context and extrapolate for one thing, then refuse to accept context for another. that's exactly what you are doing here.



well, from a very reliable source (at least he thinks so! big grin )



so, even you feel (and i agree completely) it is possible that thanos allowed something to happen subconsciously -- ie -- without his actually being aware of its happening. that could obviously not happen were he omnipotent.




What the f**k? i trust you are kidding, but hey, as you wish. smile

UNCONTROLLABLE ANGER (someone omnipotent is ALWAYS in control)
http://img139.imageshack.us/my.php?image=angercq1.jpg

DESTINED to annihilate
http://img139.imageshack.us/my.php?image=destinedxg4.jpg

DESTINED to be my station
http://img169.imageshack.us/my.php?image=destiny2oh0.jpg

DESPERATION, DENIAL and outright FAILURE -- omnipotence does NOT fail
http://img412.imageshack.us/my.php?image=failednx1.jpg

IMPOSSIBLE for him (doesn't matter that the story 'required it'. nothing is impossible if someone is omnipotent -- that's the definition of it)
http://img169.imageshack.us/my.php?image=impossiblepe5.jpg

SURPRISE. again, implying he didn't know something
http://img412.imageshack.us/my.php?image=surpriseww6.jpg

UNAWARE. again he doesn't know something. omnipotence=knows all
http://img139.imageshack.us/my.php?image=unaware2mo5.jpg

and there are other examples, but that makes my point. thanos was powerful, not omnipotent. at least not in the true sense of the word.

and a point about bobi's take on emotions and infallibility -- it's my opinion bobi that emotions DO indicate fallibility (but lack of emotions does NOT equate to the obverse, obviously). if we are happy, it implies we have experienced a time where we were NOT happy, which implies an inability to control our emotions or the environment around us or at least an inability to prevent whatever MADE us unhappy. surprise indicates lack of a priori knowledge. anger, lack of rational control. emotions are our responses to situations that are dictated TO us. we cannot control them, they simply are. an inability to control is a fault. this implies we are fallible. an omnipotent being would be OUTSIDE emotional influence because they would never NOT be in absolute control of everything. thanos could not control his emotions on a number of occasions. he LOST control of himself and his power. again, these are mutually exclusive to omnipotence. citing story purposes doesn't work unless we change the definition for omnipotence for a comicbook. and if that's what you want to do, that's fine by me. just don't claim he is omnipotent. say he's . . . comicbook omnipotent, whatever that might mean . . .



not than common sense. if marvel tells me black is white, it may well be the case WITHIN their universe. but in the real world marvel's opinion doesn't matter. for purposes of their universe, they have declared black is white. that's fine and i accept it within their universe. like they can define their own version of omnipotence if they want. and maybe they have. you said in a later post that god's a happy old man. the difference even there is simple -- god BECAME man in that book. thanos did NOT become god, he used some of his power and retained his sense of humanity. good for the story -- bad for your supposed omnipotence.

now, again, if you want to argue that by marvel standards he was omnipotent, fine. but the marvel definition then is clearly very different from our real world definition. we either redefine omnipotence to allow for this clearly NOT omnipotent 'comicbook version' of the concept, or we scrap the whole discussion because it is clear thanos was NOT omnipotent in anyway beyond his declaring himself such and having other comic characters declare him as such. he also showed he was more powerful than anyone who faced him, but . . . so what? that in itself does not mean he's omnipotent -- just more powerful than the others. and if lt really DID think thanos was omnipotent in the 'true' sense of the word, why bother raising an army to challenge him? if lt truly 'wove destiny' he would have known it was futile.

thanos was a tool. he served a function. by his OWN admission he was DESTINED to play the role he did. someone omnipotent DESIGNS destiny and function. an omnipotent being is NOT subject to its dictates.



i could find a scan where thor says odin is omnipotent. you always carry on-panel evidence too far, mm. your scan of lt says HE is omnipotent, too. clearly you cannot believe that (since you think thanos is omnipotent and above him). so your scan is invalid and really doesn't support anything. if he's not omnipotent, lt doesn't know everything, and galan's scan is as valid as your own. they both demonstrate that lt is NOT omnipotent.



if you're questioning that thanos retained his sense of himself throughout (and all the faults that come with him), then it is indeed time to split. again, it was a redemption story, we are supposed to relate to thanos so that means he NEEDED to retain his faults because he was striving to move BEYOND them. having faults of course means he was NOT omnipotent. but, whatever. i suspect you'll never change your mind. neither will i. no scan you can show can convince me he was "in the true sense of the word," omnipotent (cuz then there could not be a story) so we really don't have anything left to discuss. could he have used the power to RENDER himself omniscient, and above all the concepts that still existed within him? maybe. but failing as he did to accomplish tasks (couldn't heal the universe, couldn't control is emotions, couldn't immediately perceive he was being used and tricked) clearly says to me that he did NOT possess truly infinite power, but rather he seems to have possessed the power toaa wanted him to have, enough to serve the function he was DESTINED to perform.

speculation? of course, but makes sense to me. more sense than saying an obviously fault-laden character, who failed to not only fix the universe WITHOUT having to destroy it, but also repeatedly failed to control his own emotions, was omnipotent.

always a pleasure though, mm. smile

leonidas
damn, that was longer than i wanted it to be. ah well, consider it my final comments on this interesting discussion. smile

King Kandy
Originally posted by Galan007
But we know he didn't have 'infinite' wisdom in '92, because he was unsure whether or not the IW were trustworthy...
Ah, but remember the IW are outside of destiny.

Mr Master
Originally posted by leonidas
you can cite story purposes all you'd like, it doesn't change the fact that his 'omnipotence' was repeatedly refuted by his thoughts and actions. the story is one of the worst ever written by marvel BECAUSE of the ridiculous contradictions. you say thanos was omnipotent because of his words and the words of others in the story. omnipotence by definition implies omniscience and infallibility -- he has the power to know all and see all. he was anything BUT either of those things throughout that silly series. you can't say -- "well, he WOULD have been omnipotent if the story didn't require him to HAVE to fail." failure and omnipotence are by definition mutually exclusive. he failed, therefore he was not omnipotent. there is no gray area. i've repeatedly said that he may have possessed unlimited power (though that is also shown to be untrue because again, he FAILED to fix the problem and was FORCED to resort to resetting things) but he was not omnipotent (ie--by definition INCAPABLE of failing at ANYTHING). he failed to control his temper. he failed to understand until later that he was being played by toaa, he failed to perceive the army gathering against him. he despaired, was surprised, etc . . . the story itself is a story of REDEMPTION. one who is truly omnipotent does not REQUIRE redemption. thanos retained his sense of mortality/humanity throughout the series. he was a mortal being wielding a lot of power. he HAD to retain his mortality for the sake of the story. no reader can sympathize with a 'truly' omnipotent being. as such, BECAUSE of his mortality, he was NOT omnipotent.
as far as showing you a direct quote or line saying he was limited -- well, ironically, it says thanos was limited EXACTLY the same number of times it says he "destroyed the multiverse and omniverse". you can't look at context and extrapolate for one thing, then refuse to accept context for another. that's exactly what you are doing here.well, from a very reliable source (at least he thinks so!)so, even you feel (and i agree completely) it is possible that thanos allowed something to happen subconsciously -- ie -- without his actually being aware of its happening. that could obviously not happen were he omnipotent.
i trust you are kidding, but hey, as you wish. UNCONTROLLABLE ANGER (someone omnipotent is ALWAYS in control)
DESTINED to annihilate
DESTINED to be my station
DESPERATION, DENIAL and outright FAILURE -- omnipotence does NOT fail
IMPOSSIBLE for him (doesn't matter that the story 'required it'. nothing is impossible if someone is omnipotent -- that's the definition of it)
SURPRISE. again, implying he didn't know something
UNAWARE. again he doesn't know something. omnipotence=knows all
and there are other examples, but that makes my point. thanos was powerful, not omnipotent. at least not in the true sense of the word.
and a point about bobi's take on emotions and infallibility -- it's my opinion bobi that emotions DO indicate fallibility (but lack of emotions does NOT equate to the obverse, obviously). if we are happy, it implies we have experienced a time where we were NOT happy, which implies an inability to control our emotions or the environment around us or at least an inability to prevent whatever MADE us unhappy. surprise indicates lack of a priori knowledge. anger, lack of rational control. emotions are our responses to situations that are dictated TO us. we cannot control them, they simply are. an inability to control is a fault. this implies we are fallible. an omnipotent being would be OUTSIDE emotional influence because they would never NOT be in absolute control of everything. thanos could not control his emotions on a number of occasions. he LOST control of himself and his power. again, these are mutually exclusive to omnipotence. citing story purposes doesn't work unless we change the definition for omnipotence for a comicbook. and if that's what you want to do, that's fine by me. just don't claim he is omnipotent. say he's . . . comicbook omnipotent, whatever that might mean . . not than common sense. if marvel tells me black is white, it may well be the case WITHIN their universe. but in the real world marvel's opinion doesn't matter. for purposes of their universe, they have declared black is white. that's fine and i accept it within their universe. like they can define their own version of omnipotence if they want. and maybe they have. you said in a later post that god's a happy old man. the difference even there is simple -- god BECAME man in that book. thanos did NOT become god, he used some of his power and retained his sense of humanity. good for the story -- bad for your supposed omnipotence.
now, again, if you want to argue that by marvel standards he was omnipotent, fine. but the marvel definition then is clearly very different from our real world definition. we either redefine omnipotence to allow for this clearly NOT omnipotent 'comicbook version' of the concept, or we scrap the whole discussion because it is clear thanos was NOT omnipotent in anyway beyond his declaring himself such and having other comic characters declare him as such. he also showed he was more powerful than anyone who faced him, but . . . so what? that in itself does not mean he's omnipotent -- just more powerful than the others. and if lt really DID think thanos was omnipotent in the 'true' sense of the word, why bother raising an army to challenge him? if lt truly 'wove destiny' he would have known it was futile.
thanos was a tool. he served a function. by his OWN admission he was DESTINED to play the role he did. someone omnipotent DESIGNS destiny and function. an omnipotent being is NOT subject to its dictates.
i could find a scan where thor says odin is omnipotent. you always carry on-panel evidence too far, mm. your scan of lt says HE is omnipotent, too. clearly you cannot believe that (since you think thanos is omnipotent and above him). so your scan is invalid and really doesn't support anything. if he's not omnipotent, lt doesn't know everything, and galan's scan is as valid as your own. they both demonstrate that lt is NOT omnipotent.
f you're questioning that thanos retained his sense of himself throughout (and all the faults that come with him), then it is indeed time to split. again, it was a redemption story, we are supposed to relate to thanos so that means he NEEDED to retain his faults because he was striving to move BEYOND them. having faults of course means he was NOT omnipotent. but, whatever. i suspect you'll never change your mind. neither will i. no scan you can show can convince me he was "in the true sense of the word," omnipotent (cuz then there could not be a story) so we really don't have anything left to discuss. could he have used the power to RENDER himself omniscient, and above all the concepts that still existed within him? maybe. but failing as he did to accomplish tasks (couldn't heal the universe, couldn't control is emotions, couldn't immediately perceive he was being used and tricked) clearly says to me that he did NOT possess truly infinite power, but rather he seems to have possessed the power toaa wanted him to have, enough to serve the function he was DESTINED to perform. speculation? of course, but makes sense to me. more sense than saying an obviously fault-laden character, who failed to not only fix the universe WITHOUT having to destroy it, but also repeatedly failed to control his own emotions, was omnipotent.
Jeesh ... laughing out loud I have to admit I stopped at:

"it doesn't change the fact that his 'omnipotence' was repeatedly refuted"

That was enough for me.

Cause like I said:
Originally posted by Mr Master

Anywho, I went through this with nvr too many times,
if you believe he wasn't omnipotent or he wasn't god,
after I presented On Panel depictions/statements, and official bio references,

well ... as you wish. smile
Originally posted by leonidas
always a pleasure though, mm. smile
Likewise friend.

...................................................................................


Bottomline:


http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/9954/th17wg4.th.jpg

"Eternity, you must sense that Everything the Almighty was I now am,

did you ever dare demand anything from Him"


Eternity RESPONDS,

"No, but" .... (Eternity is actually acknowledging that Thanos speaks the truth)

...................................................................................


http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/500/th18br2.th.jpg

"And I, like He was, am now the Author of All That Will Be ...

my Will is Supreme"

...................................................................................


Official Handbook confirms this:

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/2069/akbioyu7.th.jpg

"Thanos eradicated the Order, they ... Pronounced him GOD" ...



srugdoped .... but again, as you wish.

Galan007
Originally posted by King Kandy
Ah, but remember the IW are outside of destiny. Doesn't matter.

A 'truly' omniscient being knows ALL...

If said being's knowledge is/was limited in any way -- they were simply not 'truly' omniscient to begin with. smile


Thus,
because of the fact that LT's knowledge was limited in some fashion -- he was not omniscient in '92. smile

Mr Master
Imo, all those cute intricacies involved in the END: has to do with making a story,
otherwise, it would've been boring, with a cat that doesn't have to do anything,
so a comic where Thanos just stands there, blinks once, and end of story. erm

.................................................................................

Initially, Starlin made Thanos "God" through the IG:


On Panel:

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/1825/igmakesyougod7zf.th.jpg

Thanos, ... "In-effect became God"

..........................................................................................

And according to the Writer/Creator of the Infinity Gauntlet series:


Jim Starlin

(the writer/creator of the Infinity Gauntlet)

gets interviewed by Marvel Age.

Marvel Age is a Marvel title specifically designed to get the intricate details
to stories which would otherwise be compressed by time & space.

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/7315/igmakegod1bz0.th.jpg

"The Infinity Gauntlet,
a story that dealt with the idea of a nihilist (Thanos) becoming God"

..........................................................................................


Jim Starlin himself adds:

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/9950/igmakegod2zt8.th.jpg

"I've done the good side of God and the bad side of God,
I've gone as far as I can with the Infinity Gauntlet"

..........................................................................................


And as we know, the IG was nothing to THOTI

http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/39/t2lo0.th.jpg

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/3922/43563012fv8.th.jpg

"How dare these cretins defy their Supreme Being?

Was I not Now the End-All and Be-All of Reality?

Their very existence was by My Whim"



================ You ain't lying baby ============

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/1825/teb9.th.jpg

http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/4301/mute0609dj4.th.jpg

http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/991/allhecouldum7.th.jpg

"Nothing remained"


This is Starlin creating "God" out of a character in comics, assertively this time!

..........................................................................................


Just a little something, something for you true believers. smile

Air Legend
Seriously that leonidas guy needs to get a grasp on the definition of omnipotence. He thinks omnipotence means "by definition INCAPABLE of failing at ANYTHING". Well can an omnipotent being exist and not exist at the same time or can he create a rock he can't lift?

Seriously, going by his definition, if omnipotent being can't fail, then an omnipotent being can't do everything- fail in this case- and therefore is not omnipotent.

Omnipotent means all powerful or all power, omni- meaning ALL, potent- meaning POWERFUL. That's what Thanos was.

Not only that he said omniptonce means to know all things. That's omniscience, not omnipotence.

King Kandy
Originally posted by Galan007
Doesn't matter.

A 'truly' omniscient being knows ALL...

If said being's knowledge is/was limited in any way -- they were simply not 'truly' omniscient to begin with. smile


Thus,
because of the fact that LT's knowledge was limited in some fashion -- he was not omniscient in '92. smile
Well it's a bit unreasonable to make LT know the future of people with no set future...

leonidas
Originally posted by Air Legend
Seriously that leonidas guy needs to get a grasp on the definition of omnipotence.

laughing out loud

thank thanos you're here to steer me through these difficult waters! smile



laughing out loud

anyway, all right, i'll play along a little bit longer. i must say, i'm reaaallllyyyyyyy surprised you played the 'can he make a rock so heavy he can't lift it?' card. i could never have predicted THAT would happen . . . shifty

there are so many flaws with that very old and ever-ridiculous argument that it seems silly to go over them, but, i'll indulge you a little. smile

first, the idea is a paradox. it is impossible BECAUSE it is illogical. it demands that any omnipotent being (should one exist) is self-contradictory (ie can exist and not exist) and ignores the idea that they possess a nature that they must operate within. in smaller words -- in the case of the rock, it demands that a being (who is infinite) create something that is BIGGER than himself. that is an impossibility dictated by the nature of the being. your question is a trick of LANGUAGE. you are attempting to prove that omnipotence (or at least the real world definition of it) can't really exist (while at the same time agreeing apparently that thanos WAS omnipotent) by using illogic. i could ask if thursday was a fruit, what fruit would it be? nonsensical in the exact same way your questions (and all the variations of those questions -- can he make a 2-sided triangle??) -- are. even an omnipotent being cannot violate his own nature as that would be self-contradictory.

use logic to prove a point, not illogic.

and one more time -- omnipotence IMPLIES omniscience.

omnipotence=limitless power (bounded by the NATURE of the being). taken a different way, that means that the power can be used to reach ANY desired goal the being wishes that is NOT illogical. therefore as 'god' and as an 'omnipotent' being, thanos would achieve omniscience as well. it really isn't that hard.

since he FAILED to be able to fix the universe he is NOT omnipotent. that fact is logically inarguable and no scan of either himself or others saying he is omnipotent can change it. (you can try and say fixing the universe was a paradox if you want though i don't see how it qualifies, and you can call PIS but there are OTHER instances where he failed as well so THAT doesn't fly either -- failed to realize death still existed, failed to control his temper . . .)

as well, he FAILED to perceive the armies against him, so he is NOT omniscient (though there is some evidence to suggest he may have been PARTIALLY omniscient in the scan i showed), a natural corollary to omnipotence, thereby adding further proof that he was not omnipotent. again, at least not in the 'real world' sense. his attention could be DIVIDED and he can be unaware of things taking place around him. this proves he is fallible. fallibility and omnipotence are mutually exclusive (again, barring the nonsensical questions like you raised above).

don't use illogic to prove a point. it . . . doesn't work well and is actually pretty silly and childish. erm

and truthfully, i cannot see how anyone can 'logically' deem thanos omnipotent in light of his faults and actions.

REALLY powerful? yes

omnipotent? no

but hey, whatever floats you boat smile

ps--i discovered this as a definition of omnipotent. i think this one applies well here: All-powerful. The term is also used generically to describe numerous beings possessing vast power, which, although not unlimited, by far surpasses that of most sentient beings.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Mr Master

Imo, all those cute intricacies involved in the END: has to do with making a story,

otherwise,

it would've been boring,

with a cat that doesn't have to do anything,

like a comic where Thanos just stands there, blinks once, and end of story.
See how silly that would be.

No, so Thanos was giving depth/conviction/and substance,
to make an interesting story.

But the bottomline is, we know Thanos became Omnipotent,
because he absorbed the LT like a mote in a storm.

The LT (that's the guy who holds the entire Marvel Omniverse's destiny in one hand)
Labelled Omnipotent and Omniscient through out his history.
Second to TOAA.

Logic would suggest that Thanos had to have/be, well ... TOAA. smile

And truthfully,
I cannot see how anyone can't 'logically' deem thanos omnipotent
in light of his accomplishments.
Besides Eternity and everyone else in Marvel recognizing him as such.

IMO of course. big grin

Air Legend
Originally posted by leonidas
and one more time -- omnipotence IMPLIES omniscience.

omnipotence=limitless power (bounded by the NATURE of the being). taken a different way, that means that the power can be used to reach ANY desired goal the being wishes that is NOT illogical. therefore as 'god' and as an 'omnipotent' being, thanos would achieve omniscience as well. it really isn't that hard.

since he FAILED to be able to fix the universe he is NOT omnipotent. that fact is logically inarguable and no scan of either himself or others saying he is omnipotent can change it. (you can try and say fixing the universe was a paradox if you want though i don't see how it qualifies, and you can call PIS but there are OTHER instances where he failed as well so THAT doesn't fly either -- failed to realize death still existed, failed to control his temper . . .)

as well, he FAILED to perceive the armies against him, so he is NOT omniscient (though there is some evidence to suggest he may have been PARTIALLY omniscient in the scan i showed), a natural corollary to omnipotence, thereby adding further proof that he was not omnipotent. again, at least not in the 'real world' sense. his attention could be DIVIDED and he can be unaware of things taking place around him. this proves he is fallible. fallibility and omnipotence are mutually exclusive (again, barring the nonsensical questions like you raised above).

don't use illogic to prove a point. it . . . doesn't work well and is actually pretty silly and childish. erm

and truthfully, i cannot see how anyone can 'logically' deem thanos omnipotent in light of his faults and actions.

REALLY powerful? yes

omnipotent? no

but hey, whatever floats you boat smile

ps--i discovered this as a definition of omnipotent. i think this one applies well here: All-powerful. The term is also used generically to describe numerous beings possessing vast power, which, although not unlimited, by far surpasses that of most sentient beings.
I should have stopped reading when you said Thanos failed to fix the universe. If you bothered to comprehend the story, he did fix the Marvel Universe- by recreating it.

Anyways, I deleted your comments on the rock thing since you ignored the other examples and also due to the fact that it wasn't critical to the point I was trying to convey. Your argument that an omnipotent being can't fail at anything is illogical and maybe when you come to your senses you'll realize the truth in this.

Omnipotence doesn't imply omniscience. Where the hell did you get that from?
And that definitely doesn't apply to comics. Example: Titans usurping God's power and becoming omnipotent, but lacking omniscience and omnipresence, as Lucifer notes, one of the most difficult things to learn.

That eliminates your Thanos not being omniscient, therefore not omnipotent argument.

And if you picked up the nuances in Marvel the End, you'd realize that God acted through Thanos.

http://i101.imagethrust.com/t/705869/marveltheend5kebbin13.jpg

Thanos heals all of Marvel by starting over from scratch.

"I was the perfect candidate to be the destroyer of the universe."

God (Jim Starlin since that's how Marvel works) gave Thanos his power
to fix the Marvel universe. smile

Mr Master
...........................................................................................

Thanos ... before he knew who's power he had!

(the Writer specifically titles it - Omnipotence


http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/3111/32087626ia6.th.jpg


mwahaha


Oh, and the final issue, the Writer titles it ... "The Cure"

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/5856/mute0602vj5.th.jpg


Clarifies Thanos did indeed "fix" the flaw. stoned

King Kandy
Originally posted by leonidas
since he FAILED to be able to fix the universe he is NOT omnipotent.
Fine then. Using your own argument, TOAA had restricted his nature to be unable to fix the problem. End of argument.

TricksterPriest
then he's not truly omnipotent. doped

Inhuman
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
then he's not truly omnipotent. doped

The problem was fixed. However it was done, it was fixed.
By his plan, it went the way he wanted. And it was fixed. smile

King Kandy
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
then he's not truly omnipotent. doped
Really? Because even Leo admitted an omnipotent being cannot accomplish something outside of their nature.

quanchi112
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
then he's not truly omnipotent. doped Is the Presence omnipotent?

leonidas
Originally posted by Air Legend
I should have stopped reading when you said Thanos failed to fix the universe. If you bothered to comprehend the story, he did fix the Marvel Universe- by recreating it.

then he didn't really 'fix' the BROKEN universe, did he. he was forced to in essence rebuild it WITHOUT the flaw. he failed to fix it so had to start it again -- anew without the flaw. the egg was cracked, he couldn't repair it, so he threw it out and got a new egg same in every way but WITHOUT the crack. he didn't FIX the flawed universe, recreated it. huge difference. wink



laughing out loud

you were using a linguistic paradox to try and prove my comment illogical. that's ironic. however, several posts ago, before you ever dropped into the thread, i said an omnipotent being can acheive anything he wants without limit EXCEPT for silly little things that are illogical LIKE the rock example you brought up. i'd thought if i headed off that type of silliness it would prevent them being brought up. my bad . . . erm

as for an omnipotent being being unable to fail -- it's axiomatic i'm afraid. omnipotence=ability to achieve any desired goal that is not outside the being's nature -- ie -- that is not illogical. an omnipotent being possesses INFINITE power and with said power can do ANYTHING within logical boundaries. they can NOT fail. if you claim an omnipotent being CANNOT achieve omniscience with his power, you are limiting his power and therefore you are decreeing him NOT omnipotent. i really don't see how you don't get this point.



explain how with limitless power one cannot decree himself omniscient.



SWEET! you've proven my point for me. i said earlier that if you are redefining omnipotence to suit some perceived 'comicbook' definition of the term, i have no problem with it. that's exactly what you seem to be doing here when you say it DEFINITELY doesn't apply in comics. if you want to come up with your own definition of omnipotence and force it to fit whatever you feel thanos achieved, bully for you! big grin



then again . . .



sweet! again! further support for me. thanos was INDEED a tool, being used and directed by forces OUTSIDE his presence. were he god/omnipotent/all there would be NOTHING outsde him. there could NOT be, since he is 'all'. since toaa still existed, thanos could NOT be all, nor could he be omnipotent. subject as he was to toaa's plan he was also bound by a destiny to achieve what he did. all these restrictions on an omnipotent being?? please . . .



yep, cuz he FAILED to fix the flawed version and was FORCED to recreate it WITHOUT the flaw.



and if you are using the comicbook version of omnipotence, i have absolutely no beef at all with your stance or opinions. but thanos most certainly was NOT omnipotent by the real world definition.

cripes, even TRICKSTER can see that. stick out tongue

Air Legend
Originally posted by leonidas
then he didn't really 'fix' the BROKEN universe, did he. he was forced to in essence rebuild it WITHOUT the flaw. he failed to fix it so had to start it again -- anew without the flaw. the egg was cracked, he couldn't repair it, so he threw it out and got a new egg same in every way but WITHOUT the crack. he didn't FIX the flawed universe, recreated it. huge difference. wink
roll eyes (sarcastic)
Recreating is fixing the flaw.

In Marvel, God is the artist so of course he will always be above any comic character since he draws them. In this case, Jim Starlin made the story so that the only way to fix the flaw was by recreating the Marvel Universe.
Originally posted by leonidas

you were using a linguistic paradox to try and prove my comment illogical. that's ironic. however, several posts ago, before you ever dropped into the thread, i said an omnipotent being can acheive anything he wants without limit EXCEPT for silly little things that are illogical LIKE the rock example you brought up. i'd thought if i headed off that type of silliness it would prevent them being brought up. my bad . . . erm

By your definition, omnipotence should be above logic.
Originally posted by leonidas
as for an omnipotent being being unable to fail -- it's axiomatic i'm afraid. omnipotence=ability to achieve any desired goal that is not outside the being's nature -- ie -- that is not illogical. an omnipotent being possesses INFINITE power and with said power can do ANYTHING within logical boundaries.
So then an omnipotent being can't do everything, since, according to you, it is inhibited by "logical boundaries."
Originally posted by leonidas
they can NOT fail. if you claim an omnipotent being CANNOT achieve omniscience with his power, you are limiting his power and therefore you are decreeing him NOT omnipotent. i really don't see how you don't get this point.
Thanos could have willed himself to be omniscient, but he didn't because Jim Starlin didn't want him too for the stories sake. An omnipotent being can choose to not be omnipotent. Classic Beyonder is an excellent example, as he turned his omniscience on and off when he wanted.

Originally posted by leonidas
explain how with limitless power one cannot decree himself omniscient.
Never said they couldn't. In this case, Thanos didn't care for omniscience.

Originally posted by leonidas
SWEET! you've proven my point for me. i said earlier that if you are redefining omnipotence to suit some perceived 'comicbook' definition of the term, i have no problem with it. that's exactly what you seem to be doing here when you say it DEFINITELY doesn't apply in comics. if you want to come up with your own definition of omnipotence and force it to fit whatever you feel thanos achieved, bully for you! big grin

Wait why are we arguing over this is in the first place? The Presence isn't even omnipotent by the real definition of omnipotence, let alone by your definition of omnipotence.
Originally posted by leonidas
sweet! again! further support for me. thanos was INDEED a tool, being used and directed by forces OUTSIDE his presence. were he god/omnipotent/all there would be NOTHING outsde him. there could NOT be, since he is 'all'. since toaa still existed, thanos could NOT be all, nor could he be omnipotent. subject as he was to toaa's plan he was also bound by a destiny to achieve what he did. all these restrictions on an omnipotent being?? please . . .
In Marvel, you can't truly be God unless you're the artist/writer himself, so your assessment is just inane. Thanos was God within the omniverse (comic book reality).
Originally posted by leonidas
yep, cuz he FAILED to fix the flawed version and was FORCED to recreate it WITHOUT the flaw.

Already covered this.
Originally posted by leonidas
and if you are using the comicbook version of omnipotence, i have absolutely no beef at all with your stance or opinions. but thanos most certainly was NOT omnipotent by the real world definition.

Not omnipotent by your definition. Omnipotence just means all powerful. That's what Thanos was. smile
Originally posted by leonidas
cripes, even TRICKSTER can see that. stick out tongue
Please, he's been overwanking DC characters way more often than usual as of late...to make up for nvr's perma ban of course.

bobbi
Originally posted by leonidas

and a point about bobi's take on emotions and infallibility -- it's my opinion bobi that emotions DO indicate fallibility (but lack of emotions does NOT equate to the obverse, obviously). if we are happy, it implies we have experienced a time where we were NOT happy, which implies an inability to control our emotions or the environment around us or at least an inability to prevent whatever MADE us unhappy. surprise indicates lack of a priori knowledge. anger, lack of rational control. emotions are our responses to situations that are dictated TO us. we cannot control them, they simply are. an inability to control is a fault. this implies we are fallible. an omnipotent being would be OUTSIDE emotional influence because they would never NOT be in absolute control of everything. thanos could not control his emotions on a number of occasions. he LOST control of himself and his power. again, these are mutually exclusive to omnipotence. citing story purposes doesn't work unless we change the definition for omnipotence for a comicbook. and if that's what you want to do, that's fine by me. just don't claim he is omnipotent. say he's . . . comicbook omnipotent, whatever that might mean . . .


Being not happy doesn't necessarily mean we are unable to control our emotions or the environment around us. Assuming an omnipotent being, you can still chose to have emotions so theres no inability to control if you choose not to control. You can stop the emotions if you want but you decide not to. that doesn't limit your power.

Secondly, being unhappy doesn't mean we aren't able to control the environment around us or prevent what made us unhappy. If I chose to watch a sad movie that subsequently made me sad that doesn't mean I couldn't control the environment and was forced to watch the movie. I chose to do something that would probably make me feel the emotion of sadness.
And even if we have trouble controlling our emotions, that is not required to have emotions. An extremely skilled neurosurgeon (probably in the future. but it's physiologically possible anyway) can make a person feel almost any emotion and have that at his /her control by flipping a few switches. The person is in complete control of his/her emotions and has complete power over what he/she feels but can still feel. They chose to be effected by the environment even if they control the environment. Ultimate power doesn't mean nothing can affect you. It just means complete control of what you allow to affect you and how you are affected.

I agree that surprise implies a lack of omnipotence though (or omniscience really but like was said omnipotence can give u omniscience and to really be able to do ANYTHING you need to knowledge of everything to do it. I'll say more later) It's possible you can restrict your omniscience as an omnipotent being if you chose too but you can argue this restriction prevents you from doing things that you need the knowledge for. Allowing yourself to feel happiness and sadness causes no limitations in what you can do especially if you can shut off the sadness anytime you want.

In regards to thanos he seemed to obviously lack omniscience and so wasn't able to do a lot of things. It's possible he chose to let himself still feel etc but having uncontrollable rage or something doesn't make sense for an omnipotent being (but this could just be linguistic for effect). I don't have time now to get into an actual discussion about thano's omnipotence though. I'll input later if I have time.

Oh and omnipotent beings can't do illogical things. I didn't exactly like the explanation that was given here by leonidas I think but he is right. People act like logic is a restriction on power but it isn't. It's just the way things are. The if thursday was a fruit what fruit would it be question is a good example (or I enjoy the what does yellow smell like, what colour is bitter questions). The whole rock argument is just as nonsensical as those questions though. Just cus you don't know what colour bitter is doesnt' mean you aren't omniscient. Just because you can't make a rock so heavy you can't lift it doesn't mean you aren't omnipotent. Logic just is. at best you're making a linguistic joke by asking those questions.

leonidas
Originally posted by Air Legend
roll eyes (sarcastic)
Recreating is fixing the flaw.

no it's not. the egg was cracked. he couldn't fix it -- ie--failed to do so-- so he had to go to the fridge and get a new one. later he intentionally tried to destroy everything. again he failed and didn't even KNOW he failed.

2 failures=2 failures too many for a truly omnipotent being. smile



no degrees of omnipotence. you are or aren't. he was not, and citing story purposes doesn't excuse the failures.




again, logic is a boundary because anything outside logic (paradoxes) is nonsensical and hence meaningless.



now classic b was omnipotent too?? he didn't even know our universe existed for a long time. certainly not omnipotent or omniscient.




shrug



laughing out loud no kidding. so when people run around saying thanos was marvel's 'god' it is absurd in the extreme. even within the MU he was not omnipotent. he was a tool, destined to do the job given him by toaa. without omniscience, he also had no way to know for CERTAIN that he was truly omnipotent. it was the saem when he had the cube or IG. if he doesn't know all, he can NOT know if he was omnipotent. so his claims, and the claims of others (also non-omnipotents) are meaningless.



laughing out loud he has some big shoes to fill . . .

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