Darth maul vs Dark jedi bastilla

darthsith19

Originally posted by MutantMessiah
Despite not displaying anything impressive with the force, let alone any impressive TK or anything that compares to what Bastilla's shown to be able to do?

Maul would logically have her beat in a lightsaber battle, but forcewise? Bastilla's shown to be able to effortlessly overpower the force defences of two powerful Jedi at once, and given how Maul got taken down by the force lightning of a no-name force sensitive bodyguard, someone like Bastilla would logically easily be able to take him down in the same way.

So all out, Bastilla wins. Lightsaber combat is useless when you're more than 10 metres away from your opponent; the force isn't.
WTF dude??? Since when did Maul get taken down by a no-name Force Sensitive bodyguard with Force lightning? The only thing that I can think if that you could be talking about is when a Nightsister named Mighella (has a name, not a no-name), who was stated to be "skilled in the Dark Side", attacks him with lightning. Maul resists the lightning and slices her in half.

http://www.swtimeline.ru/comics/Darth_Maul/Darth_Maul_082.jpg

"Skilled in the use of the Dark Side of the Force."

Mighella uses a dark sword, Maul uses his lightsaber ans they duel. Maul pwns her, and then she uses lightning on him, which he resists.

http://www.swtimeline.ru/comics/Darth_Maul/Darth_Maul_086.jpg

http://www.swtimeline.ru/comics/Darth_Maul/Darth_Maul_087.jpg

If there is another instance where Maul does get taken down by a no-named bodyguard, please tell me about it.

Gideon

Indeed. She even comments how he is able to resist it. Bastilla will still lose.

Ivalice

Originally posted by darthsith19
WTF dude??? Since when did Maul get taken down by a no-name Force Sensitive bodyguard with Force lightning? The only thing that I can think if that you could be talking about is when a Nightsister named Mighella (has a name, not a no-name), who was stated to be "skilled in the Dark Side", attacks him with lightning. Maul resists the lightning and slices her in half.

http://www.swtimeline.ru/comics/Darth_Maul/Darth_Maul_082.jpg

"Skilled in the use of the Dark Side of the Force."

Mighella uses a dark sword, Maul uses his lightsaber ans they duel. Maul pwns her, and then she uses lightning on him, which he resists.

http://www.swtimeline.ru/comics/Darth_Maul/Darth_Maul_086.jpg

http://www.swtimeline.ru/comics/Darth_Maul/Darth_Maul_087.jpg

If there is another instance where Maul does get taken down by a no-named bodyguard, please tell me about it. Wow great rebuttal DS seriously guess i change my opinion this time.

MutantMessiah

Yeah, that "rebuttal" only proves one thing: that darthsith is still as much of an idiot as he was when he posted here regularly. Not only does he apparently need to check up what the term no-name actually means, but it seems he should also start actually paying attention to the very comic book panels that he provides, where Maul is shown groaning on all fours after being hit by the lightning, meaning that, by definition, he was taken down by it.

Now sure, he was able to somewhat resist it and eventually managed to slice her in half, and I never denied that. The point is, he lacked the ability to block it in the first place, and the fact that he was able to resist the lightning really means little when there's nothing to suggest that the darksider was even remotely strong in the force.

Bastilla, on the other hand, was an extremely force strong Jedi, who was able to easily overpower the force defences of two Jedi Knights at once. As far as force power goes, Maul hasn't displayed a thing, and nothing suggests that he even remotely compares with her.

Even in lightsaber combat, I really don't see why people think it's so cut and dry. It can be agreed that Bastilla is far more adept with the force (meaning she would likely be able to augment her physical attributes to a higher degree, and would possess greater force senses and reflexes and such). As for technical ability, Maul was a practitioner of a incomplete lightsaber form and as far as we know has no experience going up against a wielder of the saberstaff in combat (whereas Bastilla logically would given that it was a commonly used weapon during her time). Physically, Maul's logically more impressive, but since when did that mean much to force users? In overall combat, he has a few impressive wins, but even then, his being outclassed by an enraged padawan suggests an extremely high level of incompetence.

His advantage in lightsaber ability is marginal, at best, whereas Bastilla's advantage in force ability is clearly quite firm. Factor in that the force is a far greater weapon than the lightsaber (lightsaber ability is useless in ranged combat) and Bastilla logically wins this.

Darth Sexy

Gideon

The absurdity and ignorance of this statement, from someone who regards himself as an intellectual, baffles the mind. When Emperor Palpatine pitted Luke Skywalker against Darth Vader in combat, he instructed the untrained Jedi Knight to "use his aggressive feelings!" in combat against a powerful Sith Lord with over two decades of doctrine in dark side teachings, a seasoned and experienced combatant who spent the majority of his career purging the galaxy of Jedi. When Luke did use his feelings, he dominated Vader, despite his vastly inferior Force mastery and accomplishment as a swordsman. Mace Windu's Vaapad requires a similar mental state, transforming him into "one of the greatest duelists of the Old Republic" (ref: The Ultimate Visual Guide), utilizing the "deadliest" and "most demanding" of all the lightsaber forms. Darth Maul himself, apparently, nearly killed Darth Sidious himself in combat through use of aggression, making use of the temporary reinvigorating strength and ferociousness it gave him.

It does not speak for incompetence. Momentarily committing one's self to complete and utter hatred has been proven to be a temporary advantage, which it served for Obi-Wan Kenobi. The fact that Darth Maul obliterated Anoon Bondara in single combat is a more prominent feat than anything Bastilla Shan has done with a lightsaber.

darthsith19

Originally posted by MutantMessiah
Yeah, that "rebuttal" only proves one thing: that darthsith is still as much of an idiot as he was when he posted here regularly. Not only does he apparently need to check up what the term no-name actually means, but it seems he should also start actually paying attention to the very comic book panels that he provides, where Maul is shown groaning on all fours after being hit by the lightning, meaning that, by definition, he was taken down by it.

Now sure, he was able to somewhat resist it and eventually managed to slice her in half, and I never denied that. The point is, he lacked the ability to block it in the first place, and the fact that he was able to resist the lightning really means little when there's nothing to suggest that the darksider was even remotely strong in the force.

Yes he goes to his knees but gets right back up, it doesn't matter if he was down for like 2 seconds cause in the end he resisted it. So even if Bastilla could take him down for 2 seconds it wouldn't matter if he could get right back up and kill her. Who won that duel, Mighella or Maul? Maul did so him being taken down for 2 seconds is irrelevant. Yes he didn't block it in the first place but he did block it like 2 seconds later so he did still block it, and killed her, thus winning the duel. SO it doesn't matter if he didn't block it rught away because he did block it a few seconds later and won the duel, which is all that matters. And Maul even calls her "strong with the Force." so prove that she isn't. Maybe she is and Maul is just stronger and that's why he blocked it.

And when did I look up what no-name means??? It seems like you're the one who doesn't know what it means since you thought somebody with a name is a no-name. btw please hurry up and get banned again, noobrais, nobody really wants to "debate" with you.

MutantMessiah

Originally posted by Gideon
The absurdity and ignorance of this statement, from someone who regards himself as an intellectual, baffles the mind. When Emperor Palpatine pitted Luke Skywalker against Darth Vader in combat, he instructed the untrained Jedi Knight to "use his aggressive feelings!" in combat against a powerful Sith Lord with over two decades of doctrine in dark side teachings, a seasoned and experienced combatant who spent the majority of his career purging the galaxy of Jedi. When Luke did use his feelings, he dominated Vader, despite his vastly inferior Force mastery and accomplishment as a swordsman.

Your comparison couldn't be more extreme. Luke Skywalker was a being of enormous potential that was almost fully untapped. Luke giving over to his feelings was always going to have an enormous result, however you can't just honour by association. Kenobi had been trained in the use of the lightsaber and the force for two decades, and a far lesser potential, so the effects of giving into his rage would never be quite the same.

Your comparisons get more absurd by the minute. Vaapad is about enjoying the thrill of battle, and drawing from your opponent's power and reflecting it back at them. It's not even comparable to simply giving into one's rage.

Actually, it would seem that Darth Sidious may have in fact been in control of Maul's ferociousness the entire time. After Maul's rage had subsided, Sidious is seen with a rewarded smile on his face.

Right, because you say so?

Substantiate the exact degree that Obi-Wan's skill increased because of it. If Maul really was as skilled as you make him out to be, than I really fail to see why he was getting as overpowered as he was by a mere Padawan/Knight, no matter how enraged said Padawan/Knight was, especially considering that as a Sith, Maul would naturally be giving into his rage anyway.

Apparently you understand exactly how their fight went better than the author of Shadow Hunter himself, as all that the book states that might even hint that as much was a possibility is that both Maul and Anoon released that Maul was the superior fighter within the first few moments of their duel. That still doesn't equate to an obliteration however. The author even goes out of his way to make mention of the fact that even when "doubling his efforts" and "gritting his teeth", Maul was still unable to break through Bondara's defence. And of course, there's also the fact that Maul never actually did manage to defeat the Twi'Lek - rather, Anoon Bondara thrust his lightsaber blade into a speeder bike in the hopes of having both himself and Maul killed from the explosion.

The fact that you would try to twist what happened into Maul "obliterating" him is laughable.

Darth Sexy

Translation: I got pwned but I can't shut up.

MutantMessiah

Originally posted by darthsith19
Yes he goes to his knees but gets right back up, it doesn't matter if he was down for like 2 seconds cause in the end he resisted it.

That had nothing to do with the point I was making. The fact that he lacked the precognitive ability, reflexes, and speed to prevent getting hit by the lightning in the first place would suggest a lack of ability.

Bastilla =/= Mighella. She's depicted as being an extremely talented Jedi whereas Mighella is depicted as a relative nobody. She has proven abilities that put her far above the insignificant Nightsister.

Making things up now are we? Here's a tip: keep the comic book pages hidden if you're going to blatantly come up with lies about them.

Skilled in the darkside =/= strong in the force, not to mention that he made the reference to the general Nightsister. Fact of the matter is, Mighella has no proven force strength whatsoever, and funnily enough, neither does Maul. Bastilla, on the other hand, displays an extreme level of power (effortlessly overpowering the force defences of two Jedi at once) and logically easily has Maul beat in that department.

I suggested it, I didn't say that you had done it.

Right.

No-Name.

Know what you're talking about.

MutantMessiah

I would so love to engage Dave in a boxing match.

Darth Sexy

http://www.wackypackages.org/originalart/scans/boohoo.jpg

fascistcrusader

Oh Noobaris, will you ever learn?

darthsith19

Originally posted by MutantMessiah
That had nothing to do with the point I was making. The fact that he lacked the precognitive ability, reflexes, and speed to prevent getting hit by the lightning in the first place would suggest a lack of ability.

Bastilla =/= Mighella. She's depicted as being an extremely talented Jedi whereas Mighella is depicted as a relative nobody. She has proven abilities that put her far above the insignificant Nightsister.

Making things up now are we? Here's a tip: keep the comic book pages hidden if you're going to blatantly come up with lies about them.

Skilled in the darkside =/= strong in the force, not to mention that he made the reference to the general Nightsister. Fact of the matter is, Mighella has no proven force strength whatsoever, and funnily enough, neither does Maul. Bastilla, on the other hand, displays an extreme level of power (effortlessly overpowering the force defences of two Jedi at once) and logically easily has Maul beat in that department.

I suggested it, I didn't say that you had done it.

Right.

No-Name.

Know what you're talking about.

Gideon

Absolute bullshit. The relative magnitude of Skywalker's and Kenobi's potentials is irrelevant; it's not as if this moment of emotional weakness allowed Skywalker to tap into his entire reserves of power -- for he would, at that point, been twice as powerful as Emperor Palpatine himself, and such a being is more than capable of utterly annihilating Darth Vader -- all it did was increase his combat performance. The aggression fueled his strength, speed, and determination. Consider that Skywalker was then able to physically overpower and drive back Darth Vader (imbued with considerable Force power in his own right, not to mention his mechanical limbs), relying primarily on wild strikes, swinging his lightsaber like a baseball bat. Likewise, Kenobi was -- as you are found of saying -- a padawan, so while his potential is nothing that registers to Luke's own, that doesn't mean that it didn't register next to Maul's, and like Skywalker, his potential was largely untapped.

The mindset involves "enjoying the thrill of battle" -- i.e., giving into one's aggressive feelings -- there is a reason why Vaapad is so restricted, Nebaris, why it is referred to as "the most demanding", "the penumbra of the dark side", and why Jedi Knights may only attempt to utilize Vaapad only with Windu's explicit permission.

I expect better.

The entire purpose of the staged fight was to bait Darth Maul into using his aggressive feelings to attack Sidious with the intent to kill, and Maul took the bait. Could that, perhaps, be the reason why Sidious has a "rewarded smile"?

Short of Advent popping up, that's generally how it works.

Absurd. Aside from the fact that Darth Maul's primary character trait is that he toys with his opponent, I don't have to substantiate shit. Kenobi went from getting his collective ass kicked (with a partner, while Maul was injured) to solo to suddenly having Maul on the defensive, temporarily.

The fact that a Jedi Knight of Bondara's caliber resorted to a suicidal attempt to try to defeat Maul certainly implies a domination on Maul's part. But I'll concede. I was exaggerating.

Certainly not one of my finer moments, but I'm certain the audience finds your routine much more hilarious than my mistakes (given that I make so few of them).

Man of Christ

consider that in rotj they didnt have coreography or cgi, otherwise you would have seen lukes mastery of djem so better and he wouldve looked more like rots anakin deuling style wise. so luke in reality wasnt hacking away like a baseball bat as you say unless rots vader was doing the same against kenobi

Lord Knightfa11

ok totally bastillas knowledge of most areas of the force by the time she turned to the darkside would make her win. her battle meditation (bm) lol jk... would totally make her a truly "unique" jedi and not just some "sith apprentice" as said before... also, she took out 2 powerful jedis (jolee and "the other cat lady whos name escapes me cause i killed her in most of the times I beat that game" wink

and was chosen by the counsil for the redemption of Lord Revan (which, in most of my games which, I am not claiming are "canon", she failed miserably but apperantly the lightside is cannon so...) and she succeded. she also succeeded in beating revan back for malak to kill him... her involvement in the saving of the republic or the damning of it for the sith (either way whatever u say) and her ability and practice and experience from her entire roundabout that had happened by the time she had turned to the darkside would defenitley make her far more skilled with the force and have good lightsabers. pluss as you may have heard before, maul would be to hesitant to carve up such a beauty stick out tongue

Ivalice

Originally posted by MutantMessiah
I would so love to engage Dave in a boxing match. LOL id love to see that.

Profiled (No offence, it was funny)

MadMel

*imediately checks ivalice's profile*
i love seeing quote profiles wink

MutantMessiah

Originally posted by P-Man Jr.
Absolute bullshit. The relative magnitude of Skywalker's and Kenobi's potentials is irrelevant; it's not as if this moment of emotional weakness allowed Skywalker to tap into his entire reserves of power -- for he would, at that point, been twice as powerful as Emperor Palpatine himself, and such a being is more than capable of utterly annihilating Darth Vader -- all it did was increase his combat performance. The aggression fueled his strength, speed, and determination. Consider that Skywalker was then able to physically overpower and drive back Darth Vader (imbued with considerable Force power in his own right, not to mention his mechanical limbs), relying primarily on wild strikes, swinging his lightsaber like a baseball bat. Likewise, Kenobi was -- as you are found of saying -- a padawan, so while his potential is nothing that registers to Luke's own, that doesn't mean that it didn't register next to Maul's, and like Skywalker, his potential was largely untapped.

I'd like to see some proof for all of that, thanks. The fact of the matter is, giving into you rage is essentially tapping into your hidden potential, so it would make sense that the greater amount of potential untapped one has, the greater the effects would be. Now given that you were the one who originally made the point, I'd like for you to prove that the effects on Luke Skywalker would be the same on Obi-Wan Kenobi. None of what you've said changes the fact that you were originally committing the honour by association fallacy, attributing characteristics of one being tapping into their rage to another, without any logical basis in doing so. Start proving up, or concede the point.

Your comparisons get more absurd by the minute. Vaapad is about enjoying the thrill of battle, and drawing from your opponent's power and reflecting it back at them.

I know it's hard, but try not skipping through my posts.

I also fail to see how "enjoying the thrill of battle" is quite the same as giving into your rage. They're completely different mindsets; one draws strength from something that is positive: enjoying the battle; one draws strength from something that is negative: an uncontrollable fury.

Your comparison is completely false, not to mention that your original point was, as usual, completely unsubstantiated, given that you failed to evaluate the significance behind that one mentioned aspect of Vaapad in respect to how you were describing Windu to be: "one of the greatest duelists of the Old Republic" (ref: The Ultimate Visual Guide), utilizing the "deadliest" and "most demanding" of all the lightsaber forms.

People expect a lot from Gods.

Well now you're just subtly committing a Strawman argument. I never denied that was the reason; the point was, that Sidious wouldn't likely have been smiling at the end of the exchange if he had in fact not been in control. There's absolutely nothing that suggests that Sidious was giving it his all, or that he genuinely wasn't in control of Maul's rage augmented ability.

Right... so, erm, where was she in all of these threads?

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=473588&pagenumber=1

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=474436&pagenumber=1

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=475726&pagenumber=1

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=366164&pagenumber=1

Hiding, was she?

I'd like to see some proof for that ridiculous claim, thanks.

Nobody's denying that there was an improvement, Gideon. If you look at my original post on the matter, I fully take into account the fact that Obi-Wan was enraged at the time. The point is, if it's as simple as having a padawan simply be enraged for them to be able to overpower a Sith Lord, they're clearly not as capable as they're set up as being, and I believe that his performance against the enraged Obi-Wan would suggest a level of incompetence that most Sith don't possess.

No, it doesn't. All that we can know for sure from such an action is that Anoon Bondara simply wasn't sure he could defeat the Sith Lord, and felt that the explosion that would be caused from the speeder bike would be the safer option. It in no way implies domination.

Tender ego indeed. Gideon, I can understand that the amount of times losing to me may have been getting to you, but leave these attempts at humour or wit or whatever it's supposed to be for people who get thrills from that stuff (in case you didn't know, that would be Darth Sexy). Believe it or not, I don't come to this forum to engage "intellectuals" in insults.

Darth Sexy

Noobaris, you don't come to this forum to engage intellectuals either. You come here to get owned and banned.

Gideon

I'd call your argument "bullshit", again, but it's getting redundant; the only difference between the latest attempt and the last is that the smell is stronger. Once again, I don't have to prove shit -- it is a commonly accepted fact that Force users using aggressive feelings boosts combat performance, however temporary, thus why Emperor Palpatine urged Luke Skywalker to summon his hatred, to make use of it against a vastly more experienced foe with a vastly greater mastery of the Force. You even said it yourself: "giving into your rage is essentially tapping into your hidden potential," -- the same effects would apply for Obi-Wan Kenobi. He was clearly a far cry from his maximum potential, and so his aggressive feelings allowed him to access part of it. It was you who made the unsupported, unaccepted claim that "the more potential you have = a far greater result" -- you have to prove it. Given that Skywalker did not obliterate Vader within the first seconds of its use, one can easily deduce that he didn't tap into the whole damn thing. But since you made the claim, you have to prove it. Perhaps you ought to be more careful when you word your statements?

Right, Nebaris, because if it were clearly so cut-and-dry, it would not be considered a "dangerous" lightsaber form due to the demands of the technique, the mindset, and how it is the "penumbra to the dark side".

Oh, wait...

That a Jedi making use of aggression allows him to become one of the greatest duelists of the Old Republic, ergo, it's a useful advantage.

And thus, the stress on my life to make the world a better place for my creations.

Well, now, you're not-so-subtly acting retarded. Sidious is notorious for risking his own neck based on his assessment of people. Once in Revenge of the Sith and Return of the Jedi. Your assumption that Sidious was smiling because "he was in control" rather than pleased that he accomplished his goal, i.e.: baiting Maul, you need to provide proof.

It would help if you've provided threads where I've lost. But, humans can't achieve the impossible. wink

I already did.

Could be worse: he could have been electrocuted and nearly put into a coma by his own lack of observation. wink

Besides, your derisive remarks regarding Kenobi's rank is irrelevant. Qui-Gon Jinn was a respected Jedi Master, and he died. Kenobi won. If Maul's loss or brief dominance by a padawan is somehow less than an accomplished Jedi Master failing where his lesser student succeeds, you let me know.

Sure it does. Bondara knew he was going to lose, accepted it, and opted for suicide. Maul might have not broke through his defenses, but he was "driving him back". Maul was dominating.

I don't have to attempt humor or wit, Nebaris. I'm considered funny and witty. You're considered funny as well, it's just nothing intentional on your part. Amazingly, has it ever occured to you that by frequently referring to DS as "Darth Repetitive" and pointing out "how repetitive" he is, you're being repetitive and unoriginal yourself?

Self-ownage ftw.

MutantMessiah

Oh it's on, b1tch!

Gideon

Originally posted by MutantMessiah
Oh it's on, b1tch!

Gotta love Nebaris. So painfully easy to exploit. big grin

MutantMessiah

As usual, this entire passage of text = pointless on your part. Nobody was denying that he was clearly receiving benefits from his uncontrollable fury; I explicitly made it clear that I knew this was the case throughout this thread. The point is, you're attempting to attribute the exact benefits that Luke Skywalker gained from using his rage to Obi-Wan Kenobi, with no proof that the effects would be the same, and thereby honouring by association (there's a reason it's a logical fallacy Gideon, it essentially means that your debating style sucks Publius penis).

It's simple: for the very same reasons that force users with greater levels of untapped potential possess greater improvement rates, as can be seen constantly with figures such as Anakin Skywalker, Darth Bane, Luke Skywalker, and Exar Kun etc. No matter how temporary the improvement is when a being taps into their rage, the improvement is still of the same nature, meaning that Luke Skywalker would logically receive far greater benefits from doing so than the unremarkable Obi-Wan Kenobi, given his far greater level of untapped potential.

...and here you go again with the Strawman Argument (that would be another logical fallacy Gideon). Nobody claimed that Luke would be tapping into his entire untapped potential, so please quit making shot up.

Perhaps =/= a question word. Perhaps one day you'll learnt that.

How so?

The point is, you're treating the effects of one aspect of Vaapad and the effects of giving into your rage as being exactly the same, despite the different motives behind the mindsets, when you have no logical basis in doing so. Aside from that, you're being extremely vague in your argument, and failing to evaluate the significance of the mindset as part of what made Windu as good as he became.

Again, your point means little until you can evaluate the significance of what you mentioned as part of how accomplished Mace Windu had become.

Would this be an example of the humour and wit that you're apparently so well known for? I'd suggest sticking to the copycat stuff Gideon, your original material seems to be getting giggles from one person, and one person alone, and I'll let you guess who that one person is. Here's a hint: his name begins with a "D."

Is it "See how many Logical Fallacies you can commit" day in Kentucky or something? Seriously, your record's getting scarily close to Darth Sexy's and that's some serious shit. As usual, your comparison is false. With the incidents that you're referring to, Darth Sidious was risking his life based on his judgements of the motives behind the individuals, with which he had been using his masterful manipulative ability to be near fully in control of (not to mention that with the second incident, he knew that he could have simply returned into one of his clone bodies, s he had done before; meaning, you're essentially claiming that Sidious is notorious for something, with only one example to support that). That's a completely different ballgame to simply judging the martial capabilities of an individual, with which when you take into account the unpredictable result of having the mentioned individual enter a bloodthirsy rage, is a judgement with which Palpatine could never be quite so certain on.

Now what you need to understand is that you originally formed the comparison, meaning it's up to you to substantiate it. I never undeniably made any firm claim, I was simply open to the possibility that Palpatine had in fact been in control the entire time, as it would seem unlikely that he would be genuinely laughing after having a situation truly reach out of his hands like it would have done. Either way, it's not my job to undermine your unsubstantiated points, though you do make it rather easy.

Coming from the person who admits to someone having, and I quote "kick ass across these forums?" Clearly we shall have to take whatever you say on the matter with a pinch of salt. Clearly indeed.

For your claim that Darth Maul's primary character trait is that he toys with his opponent? No, you didn't. Get to it.

Context.

No, they're not. The fact that Kenobi was at such an early stage of his development, yet still be in a position of superiority over the Sith Lord, no matter how enraged he was, speaks a lot for a lack of ability on Maul's part.

Irrelevant Misdirection, Logical Fallacy. Jedi, of the peaceful early PT era, weren't respected for their martial prowess, making this irrelevant in this context.

That's great, and this is the same guy who was stated to be far past his prime, and who has no proven great ability in combat whatsoever.

Well done, you managed to prove that Maul performed better than a past-his-prime Jedi Master with no proven skills (your assertion that he was accomplished, in this context, lacks evidence, and how respected he was certainly doesn't change that).

It's possible that you might have drawn such a conclusion from descriptions of the fight, but your original argument was that Bondara sacrificing himself in order to destroy Maul implies that he was being dominated. You've yet to explain how that is the case. At best, all that we can know for sure was that Anoon Bondara believed that the explosion caused from the destruction of the speeder bike stood more of a chance of destroying Maul than he did, in combat. That's all. That in no way necessarily implies domination. You're reaching a false conclusion (that would be another logical fallacy there).

Lol. By people on these forums? News to me. If anything, you're occasionally witty, but even then, it's - at best - copy-cat material, and - at worst - sh1t that you try way too hard on that usually comes out odd anyway. In terms of your funny factor, I've personally yet to see it. Perhaps it would come out more if you didn't try so hard at being clever, and tried harder at identifying the things that people naturally find amusing.

No, it would be self ownage if I referred to him as such on the constant, as that really is how frequently he uses the same sh1t over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.

Though, I will say I have gotten way too repetitive in one aspect: making you look like a idiot. It happens constantly. Now, and I'm not baiting you when I say this, is this actually the 47th consecutive time you've been owned by the N-Man?

MutantMessiah

^ P-Man Jr. got owned.

MutantMessiah

Bigtime.

MutantMessiah

Worse than his side kick Darth Sex Addict ever was.

MutantMessiah

Yes, that's right, The N-Man > the edit button.

Darth Sexy

I wonder if Noobaris realize he's being made fun of. Sorry Noobaris, you got owned..Again. You typing doesn't constitute as ownage. Enjoy this next ban..

MutantMessiah

Dave is just upset because his manhood is smaller than the edit button. Don't worry dude, Gideon will still love you, always, irregardless of your miniscule penis.

Darth Sexy

http://www.afunnystuff.com/forumpics/stillgh3y.jpg

Gideon

Originally posted by MutantMessiah As usual, this entire passage of text = pointless on your part. Nobody was denying that he was clearly receiving benefits from his uncontrollable fury; I explicitly made it clear that I knew this was the case throughout this thread. The point is, you're attempting to attribute the exact benefits that Luke Skywalker gained from using his rage to Obi-Wan Kenobi, with no proof that the effects would be the same, and thereby honouring by association (there's a reason it's a logical fallacy Gideon, it essentially means that your debating style sucks Publius penis).

I hear many schools across the nation are integrating Hooked-On-Phonics into the curriculum, improving the capabilities of students. Yet judging from your rebuttal, this was clearly just a rumor.

As for the comparison between Skywalker and Kenobi, I don't know how I can make it any more simple for you, but as I'm not destined to teach Special-Ed., I can hardly be expected to help educate someone who clearly belongs in the class: Skywalker and Kenobi both received similar advantages from drawing upon their rage; both of them experienced seriously increased melee and martial ability, enabling them to briefly dominate foes who are otherwise much stronger and more accomplished than they were at that time.

What is this shit? You haven't proven a damn thing. Kenobi and Skywalker still received the same type of advancement. When angered, both of them performed well in advance of their current level of proficiency. That was the point.

No one is making "shot" up, Nebaris. What remains is a simple fact: Kenobi and Skywalker both received temporary, but extreme enhancements in combat ability. Skywalker was able to overpower an incredibly powerful and accomplished Sith Lord with decades of training and actual combat experience under his belt; Kenobi was able to dominate a Sith Lord whose "combat and Force-assisted abilities were pushed to the utmost", designed to be the "ultimate weapon" for history's most powerful Sith Master (a Sith Lord "fiercely demanding" of high standards), despite the fact that -- earlier -- he and Qui-Gon weren't able to make such a progression.

It was a rhetorical question, offering a truth, albeit in a sarcastic manner. Perhaps one day, you'll learn the difference (no 't').

Vaapad and the mindset it incorporates has been described as the "penumbra" of the dark side, a clear reference to the level of aggression that the user must use -- one thinks of the Galactic Emperor's demand that Luke "use his aggressive feelings" -- aggression of any variety is a distinct trait of a dark sider, which is one of the many reasons why Vaapad is so dangerous. It allows for an advantage in close quarters combat, clearly one of the reasons that Windu is regarded as one of the very best ever.

I did.

Nebaris, we can go back and forth on "whose funnier!" all night. Yet the vast majority of your 'wit' manifests itself as abnormally clunky, gangly, rough sentences, lacking any subtlelty or smoothness. I would suggest (suggestions are normally important when the person giving them is, which is an advantage you lack) sticking to the argument at hand, because the "Mr. P-Man Junior" remark killed whatever sense of wit you had.

The only time you've ever proven me wrong, Nebaris, is when I think you've hit rock bottom -- you always manage to find a lower place.

a.) Leeland Chee retconned that statement in Dark Empire, Emperor Palpatine's first death was aboard the second Death Star.

b.) Palpatine trained Darth Maul from an infant to a young adult, Nebaris. Get with the ****ing program. This wasn't Anakin Skywalker or Count Dooku; Sidious was Maul's de facto parent and father figure. Jesus, your argument is practically nonexistent. One bullshit claim after another. It's plain as day, with Sidious's demanding training sessions, that he knew full well Maul's capability.

Now, what you need to understand is that -- especially on the subject of this session with Maul -- your entire argument is pure fabrication and ignorance. Palpatine raised Maul; he knew his capabilities as well as any person can be aware of another's. What you're "simply open" to is out of the question. Palpatine wanted Maul to give into his rage and attack him with the intent to kill, and he did. That is why, when all things settled down, Palpatine smirked. Mission accomplished.

That would be by Advent. Not you. wink

Someone didn't even bother to read Shadow Hunter, I see.

Yes, we're all aware of it. Maul's incompetence doesn't even begin to register.

You're either on drugs, or this is an unfortunate side effect of your parents' obvious use of them (I suspect this is one of the things that led to your birth; drugs typically completely **** up one's judgment). Maul tooled both Qui-Gon and Kenobi. Do you get that? The TPM novelization makes it clear: Maul > Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan; Qui-Gon > Obi-Wan. And Maul decimated Qui-Gon, individually. Is it so hard to put two and two together to get four?

George "The PT is the prime of the Jedi" Lucas > you, Nebaris.

TPM novelization disagrees with you, Jinn was noted to be one of the most capable swordsmen that a Jedi Master had seen in over "four hundred years".

Gideon

No, I've managed to prove that Maul performed better than a Jedi Master with heralded abilities with a lightsaber.

I reached a logical conclusion by pointing out that Bondara opted for suicide and that he was being "forced back" the whole time. wink

Once again, Nebaris, we can go back and forth from here to eternity. The difference is that the only person amused by your antics is you. As for your debates, well, if we take those into consideration, you elicit more laughter from the world than I ever could. wink

Nebaris, you refer to him as that all the time. Seriously, now, it's time to take out the syringe and check yourself into rehab. It might have been too late for your parents, but you still have a (limited) chance of making a recovery. By the way, your final punch line? Sorely lacking in anything approaching humor. If you want to really crack someone up, you just stick to the debate. Nothing funnier than you trying to reason. wink

Darth Sexy

http://www.cspacezone.com/post_img/Owned_Lobster.jpg

BaneOfJedi700

blah blah blah get back on-topic.

Lord Knightfa11

lol yea...

seriously thou the reason they have turned this forum into a deull of words is that this is so evidently bastillas battle that there is no reason to debate for maul...

I think you need to use "form zero" with your hasty little typing fingers... quit just blabbing off on who's the best debater. maybe on vs.... Gideon vs Darth Sexy? then you can fight all you want and stay on topic... and post random insulting images...

oh and btw, still bastillas fight. Maul was overpowered by two jedi who had been trained in more of "wisdom" then combat. these jedis were embassadors and not practiced for war as much as maul who had been expecting to run into some jedis. Jinn and Wan were probably at this time training to settle disputes, negotiate treaties, and use their presence and their lightsabers to keep the peace. they were not at all ready for dueling and were more using their abilities when they did get into combat for deflecting bullets.

it is important to note the death of Jinn in this battle but still, where maul was fighting nightsiders and getting "owned by no names" (or whatever im not saying that he was a no name) and dueling, the jedi were practicing way more in the ways of the toungue and the peacemaker then the ways of war.

bastilla was a hardened jedi who had unique abilities and power against lightsabers as well as blaster bullets.

dont quote me as everything I have said is backed by the movie and the comic books and the game, and dont contradict me because I have not stated one mistruth. I totally believe that bastilla is more powerful then obi wan and qui gon in the ways of war, but maybe no much so powerful in the ways of peace...

when reading novels and the like it is important to note the nature of the jedi. when it says in the rots novel "yoda was the most powerful enemy the darkness had ever known" you should take into context that he was very wise and might have been able to stop alot of noobs from falling to the darkness. maybe some of his power was in stopping sith before they became sith.

Once again, I have not stated a mistruth so dont quote me or contradict me please, unless I have. if it is a matter of opinion, please do not. if it is a matter of me saying something that is not cannon as a fact, please do contradict me.

My supreme belief about the star wars universe that holds me from debating all day with you about what is and isnt cannon, is that its all Fiction... Its all made up... none of it happenned.... remember that as you debate....

BaneOfJedi700

okay well I just like Maul, you know, "GO TEAM MAUL!" hot cheerleaders with horns and red&black tats. Ohh yyyeaahhh!

PS: thats the kool-aid guy. Just so you know in case you're a bleeding retard.

PPS: Gideon you're in Ky? what part?

Lord Knightfa11

well im sorry, I like maul too (hes one of the most cool and powerful in swbfII, my fav game in the world) but, in the movies he is a piece of crap... and would not remain upright in the wind from bastillas butt.

Lord Knightfa11

ok this is not a "Knightfa11 original" I heard it on a different thread but here goes...

Bastilla would take a force crap on maul...

Ivalice

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
ok this is not a "Knightfa11 original" I heard it on a different thread but here goes...

Bastilla would take a force crap on maul... Id love to see you prove it.

Darth Exodus

Can you not read??
He's already made his points.

For myself i'm unsure. Anyone who can keep up with Revan must be good. But Maul's good too....

Gideon

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Can you not read??
He's already made his points.

For myself i'm unsure. Anyone who can keep up with Revan must be good. But Maul's good too....

Actually, the interesting thing is that he's yet to prove or disprove a damn thing. He seemingly has no understanding of the concept of canon. So while he is free to lecture on the fact that "it is fiction" it does not absolve him of his apparent ignorance.

Lord Knightfa11

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
lol yea...

oh and btw, still bastillas fight. Maul was overpowered by two jedi who had been trained in more of "wisdom" then combat. these jedis were embassadors and not practiced for war as much as maul who had been expecting to run into some jedis. Jinn and Wan were probably at this time training to settle disputes, negotiate treaties, and use their presence and their lightsabers to keep the peace. they were not at all ready for dueling and were more using their abilities when they did get into combat for deflecting bullets.

it is important to note the death of Jinn in this battle but still, where maul was fighting nightsiders and getting "owned by no names" (or whatever im not saying that he was a no name) and dueling, the jedi were practicing way more in the ways of the toungue and the peacemaker then the ways of war.

bastilla was a hardened jedi who had unique abilities and power against lightsabers as well as blaster bullets.

are these not good points? Maul was owned two people whos main proffeciency was not with the lightsaber, while bastilla has owned many whos main profeciency was.

Just because your a "jedi master" doesnt make you anything special with the lightsaber. Most Jedi masters during peacetime are chosen for their wisdom and peacekeeping abilities, not their combat skills.

Lord Knightfa11

this is a knightfall original

often the use of the ways of the toungue can be used to prevent the use of the ways of the sword.

aka the mouth is mightier then the sword. these jedi were negotiators, not Master swordsmen.

Lord Knightfa11

Originally posted by Gideon
Actually, the interesting thing is that he's yet to prove or disprove a damn thing. He seemingly has no understanding of the concept of canon. So while he is free to lecture on the fact that "it is fiction" it does not absolve him of his apparent ignorance.

therefor gideon, as I had already posted those points it is you who cannot read. I have also posted about bastillas ability to influence the outcome of a battle (CANNON) Bastilla overcame two powerful jedis who had gone through alot of battle experience and practice (CANNON) Mauls death from two "NEGOTIATOR JEDI" (CANON)....

go buy "Hooked on Phonics" and come back and start debating again.

Elite Hunter

How about the fact the Qui-gon was one of the best in the order. Kenobi was using the darkside and that Maul had a leg injury so he wasn't 100% and yet he still outdueled them both but got overconfident with Kenobi hanging over the ledge.

Lord Knightfa11

umm... hello? I just said how Jinn was one of the best in the order. The jedi dont just mention their skill and power by blade but by negotiating and wisdom.... And the darkside isnt any stronger. Obi was a padawan, maul got overconfident, yes, but he was still killed by stupidity and an angry padawan.

THE Darkside isnt any stronger

Luke: is the darkside stronger?
Yoda: No! quicker, easier it is...

Lord Knightfa11

also, qui gonn and obi wan were using weak abilities. this quote from WIKIpedia shows this point as observing the fight would:

One basis for the acrobatic nature of Ataru is that lightsabers can damage with brushing, light strokes, rather than hard chopping motions. Ataru practitioners are at a great disadvantage if fighting in a small area. This weakness became apparent in The Phantom Menace, when Qui-Gon Jinn was killed by Darth Maul in a confined space. Yoda, however, practiced Form IV with such speed that, when coupled with his small size, it left every point on an opponent's body open to attack while more than adequately defending himself.

After Darth Maul's defeat on Naboo, Obi-Wan Kenobi decided to perfect his practice of Soresu since Qui-Gon Jinn, Kenobi's mentor and Form IV Ataru master, fell against Darth Maul. By the time of Revenge of The Sith, Obi-Wan Kenobi is acknowledged as the master of Soresu by Mace Windu in the novelization.

this shows, as well as just observing the movie does, that the jedi were also cramped and their fighting style was greatly hindered when maul killed them.

SO qui-gon and Obi wan

Lord Knightfa11

i mean im right. your just arguing for fun because you feel like debating.

Lord Knightfa11

there is no part of anyone who has played the game and watched the phantom menace that really truly understands that maul would win.

Elite Hunter

I wasn't really addressing that to any1 in particular. And i agree wit a lot of what you said. But it is also worth noting that Maul was the one who forced the duo into the situation that made ataro less affective as stated in the TPM novel.

Lord Knightfa11

true. finally you agree on something with me lol. we debate on pretty much everything I put a post on...

Gideon

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11therefor gideon, as I had already posted those points it is you who cannot read.

Assuming makes an ass out of you and me; well, in this case, just you, but seriously -- I've clearly read your argument (if you want to call it that) and I clearly think that it's absolute bullshit. If you cant raise your game, get the hell out of the court. You're dealing with pros, here. wink

...Through battle meditation, which requires her to sit her ass down and go into a ritualistic for-all-intents-and-purposes coma where she needs to be protected. Newsflash: read the f--king title; there's no one here to save her candy ass.

What the hell -- substantiate your shit. Prove that these no-named Jedi were "powerful"; you simply saying that they are translates to absolutely nothing (much like the rest of your argument).

Incorrect. Darth Maul dominated the two "negotiator Jedi" -- which were, in all actuality, a supremely promising padawan learner and a highly respected Jedi Master sent on a mission as diplomats in a highly profiled and ridiculously important trade dispute. He then butchered one and was killed because he made the mistake of getting cocky. Not because he was outskilled.

Carbon-copied hooklines and jabs? Try "Life For Dummies" or its popular sequel: "Originality Is Your Friend".

0�Mandalore�0

I'm sorry, but you, my friend, have been (for like the 10th time, by the way)

Lord Knightfa11

Originally posted by Gideon
Assuming makes an ass out of you and me; well, in this case, just you, but seriously -- I've clearly read your argument (if you want to call it that) and I clearly think that it's absolute bullshit. If you cant raise your game, get the hell out of the court. You're dealing with pros, here. wink

raise my game? every arguement you have put forward in this post has been a piece of crap that is totally incomplete and full of profanity that would easily get you banned.

...Through battle meditation, which requires her to sit her ass down and go into a ritualistic for-all-intents-and-purposes coma where she needs to be protected. Newsflash: read the f--king title; there's no one here to save her candy ass.

--true but just this one skill makes her the difference from a average sith with a unique fighting style like maul. maul was just made to put a little action into a very very very boring movie and holds no necessary storyline for the rest of Star Wars

What the hell -- substantiate your shit. Prove that these no-named Jedi were "powerful"; you simply saying that they are translates to absolutely nothing (much like the rest of your argument).

...she also was perfectly capable of standing up to revan in both his sith and lightside forms. she has had plenty of experience and was indeed skilled in the force. You are right to question the power of the no named jedi she beat. Jolee is powerful, but the cat lady was merely a average knight. Excuse the use of the word "two' and 'powerful" together. but being able to take revan and turn the tide of battle in a way that was never shown by the brute strength and brawn over brains of maul.

Incorrect. Darth Maul dominated the two "negotiator Jedi" -- which were, in all actuality, a supremely promising padawan learner and a highly respected Jedi Master sent on a mission as diplomats in a highly profiled and ridiculously important trade dispute. He then butchered one and was killed because he made the mistake of getting cocky. Not because he was outskilled.

... says you... this is a matter of opinion. he was still owned by negotiator jedi. come back with a cannon source and your newly learned reading knowledge from hooked on phonics, and you will understand that they were in fact negotiators and not as trained in dueling and also using the wrong form for the cramped area they were suckered into. find me a cannon source that they had dueled alot before maul.

Carbon-copied hooklines and jabs? Try "Life For Dummies" or its popular sequel: "Originality Is Your Friend".

...well hooked on phonics is supposed to tell you to read. how about you once again, buy it, re-read my statement, then you will understand the cleverness of this insult.

Lord Knightfa11

sorry about putting my remarks inside of the quote. I dont know how to work the mechanics of the forum as well as I know my way around the logic of what im trying to say. DUDE GET A GRIP... ALL YOU ARE DOING IS MAKING YOURSELF LOOK INCREDIBLY STUPID BY DENYING THAT MY ARGUEMENTS TOTALLY IMPACT THE TOPIC.

you are being a fanboy for darth maul and swooning over his double bladed lightsaber and the fact that none of the jedi order had seen it very recently, and maybe even for qui gon and Obi wan, had not seen it at all before...

and they still owned him!

so suck it up and admit you lost.

OWNED

0�Mandalore�0

You are dealing with one of the best debaters on these forums. He owned you, your arguments are terrible, deal with it. Stop saying bullshit because you'll end up even worse than you already are... if that's even possible. Hell, you feel like you've been here for years, and guess what? You've not even been here for two weeks. You have to earn the respect you think you have. You've been here for almost no time and you've already annoyed half of the people here. Start posting real arguments or shut the hell up.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
sorry about putting my remarks inside of the quote. I dont know how to work the mechanics of the forum as well as I know my way around the logic of what im trying to say. DUDE GET A GRIP... ALL YOU ARE DOING IS MAKING YOURSELF LOOK INCREDIBLY STUPID BY DENYING THAT MY ARGUEMENTS TOTALLY IMPACT THE TOPIC.

you are being a fanboy for darth maul and swooning over his double bladed lightsaber and the fact that none of the jedi order had seen it very recently, and maybe even for qui gon and Obi wan, had not seen it at all before...

and they still owned him!

so suck it up and admit you lost.

OWNED

Hey ******, you sound dumber than Noobaris. I'm assuming you're going to be banned for incessant stupidity. You are the one making yourself look like a buffoon. You have been owned, now STFU Noob...

Darth Exodus

Which doesn't really mean much. The only good people we know of were Yoda, Mace and that Boodara guy.
Being one of the top in a group of negotiators and unknowns doesn't mean much.

Actually, if you'd done your homework then you'd know that Maul was also a practitioner of Ataru. He does flips and everything.

Darth Exodus

Obviously you've never seen Nomi in action.
Bas only needs to go into a coma for large battles. For example, in the game KOTOR2 you could use low-level BM as an attack.
Although, that jedi in RO2 needed a trance.... probably just weak or jedi lost the Nomi-style in the 3000 years or so.

By the way, Maul would win this. Good fight though.

Ivalice

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
For example, in the game KOTOR2 you could use low-level BM as an attack.

Gameplay mechanics isn't canon.

Darth Exodus

Well obviously they wouldn't put anything in it that seriously contradicted the way that the Force works.
And theres still the fact that Nomi used it without the trance stuff.

Ivalice

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Well obviously they wouldn't put anything in it that seriously contradicted the way that the Force works.
And theres still the fact that Nomi used it without the trance stuff. Right and average jedi master vrook and friends could do the same thing... easily.

Darth Exodus

When?

Ivalice

Before kreia tooled them?

Lord Knightfa11

dude...

you guys are so... his arguements are crap. you cant give me one cannon source that says the two jedi had dealed with a sith before darth maul.... making them innexperienced.

even give me one cannon source that says they had even sparred with a master who used a double bladed Lightsaber before maul. YOU CANT.

Yea, maul got cocky, but thats something I consider a dueling skill... Discression and wisdom and good choicemaking... Puts maul at a low here.

Bastila traveled all over the galaxy at the side of Revan fighting sith and this gave her Lightsaber skills, and experience. She even kept revan at bay in the begining dream of the game.

seriously guys... you all need to reread my arguements. these are really good points.

His points are trying to make Jin and kenobi sound like gods in the lightsaber. they werent. "R

Even if bastilla didnt totally own with sabers she would just kill him with the force.

"Incorrect. Darth Maul dominated the two "negotiator Jedi" -- which were, in all actuality, a supremely promising padawan learner and a highly respected Jedi Master sent on a mission as diplomats in a highly profiled and ridiculously important trade dispute."

there is a difference between skilled and promising. Just because rotj luke has the potential for njo luke doesnt mean he didnt get owned by sideous.

Respected is quite different from "Skilled" remember. these jedi were trained during peacetime which probable meant the saber was more of an immage of a badge (like a sherrif's star) to keep the peace. Im not saying nobody fought with it I am just saying that it wouldnt be used for fighting as much during peacetime.

Anakin would have gained windu's respect by "being wise" and reporting sideous to the jedi. Then he would have been made a master.

The nature of the jedi is to respect wisdom over skill with the lightsaber. Remember that.

How can "I be owned" when I am right?

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
dude...

you guys are so... his arguements are crap. you cant give me one cannon source that says the two jedi had dealed with a sith before darth maul.... making them innexperienced.

even give me one cannon source that says they had even sparred with a master who used a double bladed Lightsaber before maul. YOU CANT.

Yea, maul got cocky, but thats something I consider a dueling skill... Discression and wisdom and good choicemaking... Puts maul at a low here.

Bastila traveled all over the galaxy at the side of Revan fighting sith and this gave her Lightsaber skills, and experience. She even kept revan at bay in the begining dream of the game.

seriously guys... you all need to reread my arguements. these are really good points.

His points are trying to make Jin and kenobi sound like gods in the lightsaber. they werent. "R

Even if bastilla didnt totally own with sabers she would just kill him with the force.

"Incorrect. Darth Maul dominated the two "negotiator Jedi" -- which were, in all actuality, a supremely promising padawan learner and a highly respected Jedi Master sent on a mission as diplomats in a highly profiled and ridiculously important trade dispute."

there is a difference between skilled and promising. Just because rotj luke has the potential for njo luke doesnt mean he didnt get owned by sideous.

Respected is quite different from "Skilled" remember. these jedi were trained during peacetime which probable meant the saber was more of an immage of a badge (like a sherrif's star) to keep the peace. Im not saying nobody fought with it I am just saying that it wouldnt be used for fighting as much during peacetime.

Anakin would have gained windu's respect by "being wise" and reporting sideous to the jedi. Then he would have been made a master.

The nature of the jedi is to respect wisdom over skill with the lightsaber. Remember that.

How can "I be owned" when I am right?

You are owned because you're an idiot who doesn't understand the concept of debate, nor the laws of canon.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
heck im not going to argue that im a bigger nerd then u people. nothing I have said has been BS. its all been true, cannon data.

ive been here for 2 days.

I dont want any respect. The only reason you said he owned me is because he is "one of the best debators on these forums" and you respect him for it.

my arguements are way stronger then his in the fact that mine are true.

Kenobi and Jinn werent gods, as "promising" and "respected" means in his pitiful vocabulary, and they killed maul, who supposedly deserves a medal for it.

Bastilla fought sith all over the galaxy for the title of his apprentice. she fought the great dark lord himself.

Give me a cannon source that maul stood up to a jedi or a sith of revans callibre and gave them a sollid fight, and I will tottally succede my opinion to you.

but you cant cause it didnt happen.

http://www.darkworks.org/uranidiot.jpg

Borbarad

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
you guys are so... his arguements are crap. you cant give me one cannon source that says the two jedi had dealed with a sith before darth maul.... making them innexperienced.

Oh, really? Watch TPM, the end, Qui-Gons funeral. Yoda specifically mentions that there are always two Sith, one master, one apprentice. That means the Jedi must obviously have encountered Sith in the past thousand years (since that "Rule of Two" was designed by Darth Bane). Hell...the mere fact that they can identify Maul as a "Sith" is testament to the fact that they actually do have some extensive knowledge of the Sith Order.

How does that matter? We see Qui-Gon being hard pressed against Maul during their fight on Tatooine and in that situation Maul was just using a single blade. So obviously the guy can keep up and outclass one of the Orders bests duellist while not even using the special properties of his weapon.

Well...consider the situation. Maul was trained for his entire life to kill Jedi. He got one down. The second was about to fall. Who would have expected a Padawan to pull off an action like Obi-Wan did in this situation?

Lmao. You are talking about the "dream" that happens after Revan has received a direct hit from a turbolaser shot. Impressive. Actually it would have been more useful to mention that Bastilla was apparently able to keep Malak busy over a certain amount of time, while Revan and Carth escape from the Leviathan.

Yet still she got owned by Malak. Who at this time, had studied the Sith ways for some years at max. I doubt he compares to a killing machine like Darth Maul who has been trained in the ways of the Dark Side for his entire life (more than two decades) by one of the most powerful (if not the most powerful) Sith Lord ever.

They certainly aren't "gods" with their lightsabers.

Still. Qui-Gon was the former apprentice of one of the "saber gods" of the SW mythos (Dooku) and trained Obi-Wan. His attunement with the living force is also certainly nothing to cough at. And Obi-Wan himself is certainly quite a gifted Padawan - at the very least in terms of bladework.

How, huh?
Bastilla still was a freaking Padawan who's sole strength was Battle Meditation - which can't be used in this fight. How would she kill Maul with the force. Hell...how would she even touch Maul with it? Maul is a fully trained Sith Apprentice - the Malak of his time, so to say. One of the "deadliest Sith apprentices" trained in the entire history of the Order. What has Bastilla (canonically) ever done impressive with her lightsaber or the force (except for her battle meditation)? Nothing. Correct, Sir.

WTF?

Peacetime? Interresting interpretation of the pre-PT-times. I wouldn't call the Mandalorian Civil War, the Stark Hyperspace War and the Ynchorri Uprising "peaceful" times. Nor do I see where it does actually matter, given the display of actual combat skill that both Jedi do show during the TPM movie. If you own the TPM DVD you might want to check the commentary. There is a reason why Lucas does call the Jedi in general "invincible" in combat...

Wow. Thing that goes through my mind while reading this sentence: "Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their own level and then beat you with experience." roll eyes (sarcastic)

E-Hotshot

Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh, really? Watch TPM, the end, Qui-Gons funeral. Yoda specifically mentions that there are always two Sith, one master, one apprentice. That means the Jedi must obviously have encountered Sith in the past thousand years (since that "Rule of Two" was designed by Darth Bane). Hell...the mere fact that they can identify Maul as a "Sith" is testament to the fact that they actually do have some extensive knowledge of the Sith Order.

For the non English speaking mad men of the forum:

"you cant give me one cannon source that says the two Jedi had dealed with a sith before Darth maul"

"the two Jedi" as in Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan.

It would matter because if they hadn't, they would have been at a disadvantage that Bastilla logically wouldn't, meaning the feat loses value in terms of gauging Maul's relative level of ability.

Ignoring the fact that Maul was prepared whereas Qui-Gon wasn't, I fail to see where Qui-Gon was outclassed in that situation exactly.

No excuse. With precognition and extremely heightened reflexes, expecting an action based on how you perceive your enemy shouldn't even be a factor for a decent Force user. If his reaction time was anything worth bragging about, he would have at least moved his body.

Quit card stacking. He would have also been studying Jedi teachings for his entire life.

You're failing to factor in natural talent, Nai. Sidious hardly exactly had the widest selection of Force users to pick an apprentice from (given that his selection was limited to who the Jedi either missed out on or purposefully ignored), meaning there would be no logical basis in arguing that Maul had even above average strength in the force, and nothing suggests that he was talented in any way. Malak on the other hand, along with Revan, was noted to have stood out among the entire Order for possessing extraordinary talent and force strength, and by virtue of displays of power, as far as force prowess goes, he easily has Maul beat (freezing the extremely powerful Bastilla along with Carth (not arguing that the latter alone would be anything special, but it's the fact that he did it at the same time as the former) in place for example, with little effort).

Since when does that honestly factor in on how great a teacher Sidious would be?

Dooku? A saber God? Right, because he's done... what, exactly? Practised in one form for several decades, and acted as a lightsaber instructor? Don't be ridiculous, he hardly even stands out from the crowd. The only beings that could truly be classified as such, given an extraordinary talent or extreme mastery (I'm talking technique, here, though the same applies with Dooku in all out ability as well), would be Kas'im, Ulic Quel-Droma, Mace Windu, and Kyle Katarn.

Also, given that Jedi generally train with the lightsaber instructors of the Order rather than with their Masters, as well as the fact that the level of teaching doesn't reflect on the level of talent, this point was always going to mean little.

Refer to the above.

Which means what?

I'd like some proof.

Given how she effortlessly overpowers the force defences of two Jedi at once, not to mention the countless times she's referred to as extremely gifted, as well as the potency of her BM, she's clearly in a whole different league to Darth Maul in force ability, based on what we know.

I'd like some proof.

Because you say so? This is hardly the case, given her offensive displays with the force, which were clearly exceptional.

Lightning, perhaps? Maul's reaction time has been shown to be pretty lacking on two occasions: 1. Failing to react to Obi-Wan's ninja attack, and 2. Failing to block the lightning of a relatively average Nightsister with his lightsaber. I doubt he'd be able to defend against the extremely powerful Bastilla's lightning, given his already shown displays. Then, of course, there's Bastilla's extremely potent force stun, which was able to overpower the force defences of two Jedi at once, with little effort on Bastilla's part.

Just to remind you, the Maul we're deaing with is the same Darth Maul that has nothing going for him as far as his force ability is concerned.

Laughable.

1. Given that, as a title, "apprentice" was only the official name for the Ro2 Sith, we have no reason to believe that this refers to any Sith outside of that Order.

2. We also have no reason to believe that it would be referring to any Sith except the ones that never became Masters, given that the Apprentices that became Masters wouldn't be labelled as such. Essentially, not only narrowing down the number of Sith included in the category, but excluding the more powerful ones.

3. Bare in mind, the Order was far less militant than other's, meaning that the training would generally be less focused on battle prowess.

4. Bare in mind, also, that the Order was mostly in hiding, further undermining its level of power, as the Sith would mostly have not been getting any real battle experience.

So essentially, all that the quote proves is that Maul was among the most powerful of the lesser group of Sith (most likely numbering in the 20s, tops) within a particularly pathetic Order. Impressive. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Play the game, and know what you're talking about.

WFT?

That's great, and I love how elaborate you were there... oh wait!

swtimeline.ru/?comics=12&page=016

Yoda: After so many years of relative peace, troubles me does a threat like this.

The Yinchorri Uprising wasn't exactly the norm of the time, and clearly doesn't change the fact that the era was relatively peaceful.

Like what?

Lucas' standards are hardly parallel to those of the EU writer's, given how the epitome of force usage in the movies is pretty much chucking Senate Pods around. I'd question how exactly he'd define the term "invincible," and would love to see how exactly it changes the fact that the Jedi of the time were generally not so battle hardened.

Wow, never heard that one before. How original.

E-Hotshot

Mother****er just copied all of my points. Don't be fooled by the timing, a man can type a lot in a minute.

Lord Knightfa11

lol m8 i replied to it after I came back from work. on an old webpage my brother had been looking at. it hadnt been refreshed to see yours.

Lord Knightfa11

lol.. a man can type alot in a minute?

Lord Knightfa11

including do research on wookipedia to prove his points, read the entire articles on bastilla, maul, and malak, to double verify is facts, and then copy the key quotes from wookipedia that had the most relevence on his cause?

riiiiggghhht....

Darth Sexy

Wouldn't be surprised if this fafalla reject is just a Noobaris sock. He's just as incompetent.

E-Hotshot

Boringlad got owned.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by E-Hotshot
Boringlad got owned.

Poor Noobaris, still in denial..

Lord Knightfa11

dude...
ok i said i was gone, but... i have decided that in order to not be laughed at forever, I would have to stick it out a bit.

Darth Sexy, you arent exactly known as the greatest debator on this forum either.

I dont think hes nebaris... anyway.

Darth Sexy I have seen countless threads where you were ridiculed as a noob. notice you are the only one still fighting for maul here? E-Hotshot and I have made ambiguitiless points that have prettty much made this thread closed. instead of making dumb posts about where noobaris is (are you a fan or something?) why dont you post a arguement or a quote from a canon source that says we are wrong?

your just being an annoying, insulting noob.

No I am not saying I am not a noob. I am a noob, but I Know my stuff and am learning more stuff big grin

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
dude...
ok i said i was gone, but... i have decided that in order to not be laughed at forever, I would have to stick it out a bit.

Darth Sexy, you arent exactly known as the greatest debator on this forum either.

I dont think hes nebaris... anyway.

Darth Sexy I have seen countless threads where you were ridiculed as a noob. notice you are the only one still fighting for maul here? E-Hotshot and I have made ambiguitiless points that have prettty much made this thread closed. instead of making dumb posts about where noobaris is (are you a fan or something?) why dont you post a arguement or a quote from a canon source that says we are wrong?

your just being an annoying, insulting noob.

No I am not saying I am not a noob. I am a noob, but I Know my stuff and am learning more stuff big grin

Sure thing Noobaris. Keep getting pwned.

Lord Knightfa11

lol you tard. im not "noobaris" whoever that is. I have just heard the legend.

you have yet to show how I have been "pwned" in any way.

You are going way off topic....

go see a doctor. everyone you disagree with is "noobaris" including me and "e-hotshot"

Borbarad

Originally posted by E-Hotshot
For the non English speaking mad men of the forum:

"you cant give me one cannon source that says the two Jedi had dealed with a sith before Darth maul"

"the two Jedi" as in Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan.

And it's still a stupid stance to take. It was Qui-Gon who did confront Maul on Tatooine (so yes...he DID confront him before the fight at the end of TPM) and instantly identified him as Sith (seen when he's back at Coruscant and says that to the council members).

Which is stupid beyond believe. A Sith is nothing but a Jedi with the exception of other force powers. He wields a lightsaber, he uses the force. So unless you want to claim that two force users, who lived around other force users for the entirety of their lives aren't capable of gauging the relative level of ability that another force user has - I have to tell you that you're the damn epitome of stupidity.

They duel, Qui-Gon escapes and he has to lay down first, visibly breathing hard. While Maul just stands there in the desert showing no exertion from the fight. Obviously he was plain simply in better shape than the Jedi Master. What a surprise.

Coming from the guy who thinks that Bane must be uber despite the fact that the guy had a nice load of his own force lightning thrown back into his face by an enemy he deemed beaten. Oh wait. That's the exactly same situation Maul was in. So you have proven that Bane sucks now? Interesting.

Yes? Then give me the proof for Malak starting his Jedi training as a kid (which was not the standard back in the KotoR days). You can't? Then you better shut up.

With exception of the quote telling us that he was "one of the deadliest Sith Apprentices ever trained". End of story. I don't have to factor anything in and even if I would - the natural talent for Maul would be an unknown. Comparing an unknown to something else and then try to draw conclusions from the comparison is utter nonsense. Especially nice try to talk down Maul. The guy survived Sidious training, which was clearly designed to create a being that might be able to become his successor at some point in time. Not to mention the fact that Maul once almost managed to kill Sidious.

And since when does it matter what Malak and Revan had done. This is Maul vs Bastilla. Not Maul vs Malak or Maul vs Revan. So the matter of the debate would be what Bastilla has done to put her above Maul. Right answer: Nothing.

Right. He was one of the top 3 duellist of an Order that numbered 10,000 Jedi Knights. Which his other rivals being Yoda, and Mace Windu. Wow. Glad to know he hardly stands out from the crowd. He's just on par with a guy who designed the "deadliest form of lightsaber combat" when he was a freaking teenager. An action that required multiple-form mastery. Holy shit. Dooku must indeed suck with a lightsaber.

Urm. No. They go to extensive sparring with their respective masters once they reached Padawan status. And the better the guy instructing you (or the guy you're sparring with) the more you obviously can learn from him - regardless of talent. But maybe the guy that had lightsaber skills "rivaling that of Mace Windu" (Shadow Hunter - Qui-Gon) and the dude that Mace called the "only true master of the lightsaber" (RotS novel) didn't possess any talent when it came to lightsaber combat. Seems to be perfectly logical.

Oh. She overpowers the force defences of two random Jedi at once. I'm damn impressed. Maul forced a guy who's combat skills are "second to none" in the Jedi Order to try a suicide action to defeat him. Force skills? Wait. Maul can just accelerate his movement speed to an extend allowing him to run after a freaking air speeder (Shadow Hunter) and actually catch it. In the time it a rocket needs to fly through a rather small room, he was capable of cutting a hole in the ground, drop through it and cut another hole into the wall of the room down below and move through it (Shadow Hunter). Not to mention that the guy walked straight through force lightning, simply "resisting" it. Like to see what Bastilla would do against him, force wise.

How about playing KotoR and read KotoR related material. Bastilla was a damn Padawan at the beginning of the game and never received any promotion.

Yes? Because she did what? Overpowering two people with unknown strength? That translates into "she can do the same to Maul" how exactly? Right. It doesn't.

Which Maul has already resisted in the past?

Lmao. He didn't need to block the lightning, since he simply resisted it. The Ninja attack? Yeah. Great failing of reaction due to surprise attack. Given his regular reaction time and speed (see above) I doubt that would happen in a regular fight.

In your little universe of ignorance that nobody cares about.

A nice word to descripe your persona.

Borbarad

Given that this is the title that Ragnos gives to Ulic Quel-Droma and the title that is also used for Malak we have. And even if we reduce it to Bane's order the list of apprentices would still include people like Zannah, Sidious himself, Plagueis or - in short - 1000 years filled with Sith apprentices.

Don't try to argue me with your personal interpretation. It doesn't matter if the apprentices became masters later. It refers to the respective person before they reached Master status. And that people in that category can be pretty powerful can be seen with Zannah.

LMAO. Check the source dealing with Maul's training.

Once again: Check Mauls story. The fact that they didn't operate in a "public" fashion doesn't mean that they didn't see any action. Maul did demolish the entire Black Sun for example - and also killed Jedi before TPM. That nobody realized that the Sith were back doesn't mean much here.

Did I mention already that you personal interpreations are absolutely nonsensical and lack any form of logic. I think so. But thanks for trying it once more.

You mean like knowing that Bastilla was a Padawan? Guess somebody should follow his own great advice, huh?

You are familiar with the meaning of the word "relatively"? So it was peaceful - in relation to what? The Ancient Sith Wars? The Sith War just before the Ruusan reformation? Of course. But apparently they still had enough action going on even during that time of "relative" peace. Especially if you consider that Mace Windu, at the very beginning of the Clone Wars, already had the reputation of a "legendary swordsman". Galaxy wide and also among persons outside of the Jedi Order. I'm quite sure such a reputation is quite hard to archieve without actually using your lightsaber. And Mace even recalls some nice fights he had with Depa on his side during "Shatterpoint".

So the "relative peace" does most likely mean that there wasn't a galaxy-scale war going on. But aside of that? Simply check the list of conflicts known for that time.

Urm. Lucas is limited by things he can do within the movies. If you have the Clone War DVD - check the commentary. Lucas said that this is how he imagined the Jedi to be but he wasn't able to realize them like that in the regular movies. So much for that "standards".

And "battle hardened" is a matter of interpretation. With all the minor conflicts going on in a Republic that features thousands upon thousands of Star-Systems and the Jedi serving as both: the only military force of the Republic and a sort of "special police force" for that entire space. Well. Imagine you had just 10,000 Soldiers and police men here on Earth. Now imagine the same number of people being responsible for several thousands of planets. In that situation it's quite hard to imagine that the individual members of the Order haven't seen enough action during their career - even in a time of relative peace.

And if I may remind you. The people in the Kun/KotoR era also haven't seen a major conflict for 1000 years (from the extinction of the Ancient Sith Empire to the rise of Kun). So where is the difference to the PT era Jedi? With the exception that the Kun/KotoR era time Jedi didn't start their training as infants and that force techniques and lightsaber combat would most likely have been refined over 4,000 years ?

Gideon

It's always worth making popcorn to see Nai Fohl lay down the law.

Lord Knightfa11

borborad, I really faill to see the point that probably that 30 minutes of typing was trying to build up to...

and id like some proof that their were 10,000 jedi at the time of the clone wars.

quote:

So essentially, all that the quote proves is that Maul was among the most powerful of the lesser group of Sith (most likely numbering in the 20s, tops) within a particularly pathetic Order. Impressive.

Did I mention already that you personal interpreations are absolutely nonsensical and lack any form of logic. I think so. But thanks for trying it once more.

wth? I dont get it. you didnt even make a point with this one....
Apprentices are the bottom half of the sith. so if there were about 20 sith lords (which I am sure that this is what he was trying to say) there would be, by the rule of two, 20 apprentices. so half of them would be sith and half of them would be apprentices. What he is trying to say is on the low half as far as sith go, maul is skilled. so what he is saying is that maul is one of the best out of the less skilled group of sith. Bastilla stood up and occupied malak who would be among the mediocre of the more skilled group of sith. so wouldnt that make bastilla a pretty high end sith apprentice?

and we arent talking about "padawan bastilla" we are talking about "sith APPRENTICE bastilla." who did in fact get promoted from the demeaning title of padawan to lord Malak's Apprentice. so get this "Shan is a Padawan" crap out of your head.

What he probably meant to say, was; in comparison to the Clone War or the Jedi Civil war, Pre Phantom Menace times were probably relatively peaceful, in which case, he would be right.

In your little universe of ignorance that nobody cares about.

does this really mean anything? is this disproving that "maul has NOTHING going for him force wise?" NO. this is a waste of use on my eyeballs.
quote:
was capable of cutting a hole in the ground, drop through it and cut another hole into the wall of the room down below and move through it (Shadow Hunter). Not to mention that the guy walked straight through force lightning, simply "resisting" it. Like to see what Bastilla would do against him, force wise.

for one, this seems pretty far fetched. dropping through it would be about 80 times slower then a rocket can move, he would have to accelerate his falling speed wich has been proven physically impossible in both the star Wars Universe and our Universe. but im not going to give you a physics lesson.

Right. He was one of the top 3 duellist of an Order that numbered 10,000 Jedi Knights. Which his other rivals being Yoda, and Mace Windu. Wow. Glad to know he hardly stands out from the crowd. He's just on par with a guy who designed the "deadliest form of lightsaber combat" when he was a freaking teenager. An action that required multiple-form mastery. Holy shit. Dooku must indeed suck with a lightsaber.

Id like a link to a source. 1, that their wer 10,000 jedi Knights in action around the galaxy in star wars, 2, that he was on par with a guy who "designed the 'deadliest form of lightsaber combat' when he was a freaking teenager." and 3, that he even closely rivals yoda... *sigh* did you even watch aotc? seriously, that makes no sence at all. 4. Id like to know who "designed the 'deadliest form of lightsaber combat' when he was a freaking teenater." and a cannon source that he did so.

And since when does it matter what Malak and Revan had done. This is Maul vs Bastilla. Not Maul vs Malak or Maul vs Revan. So the matter of the debate would be what Bastilla has done to put her above Maul. Right answer: Nothing.

hmm. well, where as (as I have proved by simple logic before) maul is say one of the best out of the lower half of sith, and malak is one of the mediocre out of the higher half of sith, and bastilla was able to engage malak in combat until carth and revan could escape, this defenitely puts bastilla on par with maul. So the correct answer to your above question is:... let me think.... EVERYTHING.

Which is stupid beyond believe. A Sith is nothing but a Jedi with the exception of other force powers. He wields a lightsaber, he uses the force.

IF you believe this is true, then why does it matter in any way weather or not qui gon identified maul as a sith or not? and you dont have to have fought sith before to identify them. there are holograms. do you not think that a jedi will be trained to know a sith when he sees one? Ok... younglings, a sith carries a red lightsaber, has orange eyes, and will kill you if you talk to him... HELLO??? you dont have to have fought a sith personally to id one.

They duel, Qui-Gon escapes and he has to lay down first, visibly breathing hard. While Maul just stands there in the desert showing no exertion from the fight. Obviously he was plain simply in better shape than the Jedi Master. What a surprise.

1. this defenitely proves my point that qui gon was trained more as a negotiator and less as a combat machine.
yet they still killed maul... What a surprise.

I really fail to see how some of these contradictions even get you anywhere.

and um, as I have stated before, you dont kill an "invincible" beings freind and teacher, and then get him stuck, and then not expect him to keep trying to kill you. Why would he not expect this?

HE is an animal, a skilled beast, but a beast none the less...
--count dooku, concerning maul.

So my point is, Maul Is perhaps one of the higher on the bottom half of the whole sith/apprentice thing, and bastilla was able to keep occupied for a while one of the mediocre on the high half of the sith/apprentice thing, so wouldnt that make her somewhere pretty high on the bottom half of the sith/apprentice thing?

wouldnt that make her at least a match for maul? then she has way more force powers and abilites (as I have listed before) which would probably just about tide her over. or she could even do something totaly unexpected to him.

another thing I want to point out is that maul uses "Juyo" a form that is more implemented during Bastilla's time period, so she would be more used to and ready for his combat style then the two jedi on naboo.

also if you notice that far more jedis use double bladeds in Kotor, such as brandon, and the Sith trainer at korriban, and many of the sith on the star forge and in korriban, including bastilla, so wouldnt she be more ready to face a double bladed then the two jedi on naboo?

just a thought but all this logic points to the fact that bastilla would be far more ready and able for Maul then Kenobi and Jinn, and yet, kenobi and jinn still killed him.

and im no fighter for people who died because they didnt expect something (such as the emperor or windu or maul or bane) so leave me out of that one.

also, bane was stupid in the fact that he made the rule of two, a stupid idea that would limit the sith greatly.

fascistcrusader

Knightfall must be a Neb sock, no one else could possibly be this stupid. Especially saying things like this:

also, bane was stupid in the fact that he made the rule of two, a stupid idea that would limit the sith greatly.

Is that why the large Sith Orders always got their asses handed to them by the Jedi, but the Ro2 order conquered the galaxy?

Elite Hunter

He obviously has not read the darth bane books. Even Revan knew how flawed these sith groups are

Those who accept the power of the dark side must also accept the challenge of holding on to it. By its very nature the dark side invites rivalry and strife. This is the greatest strength of the Sith: it culls the weak from our order. Yet this rivalry can also be our greatest weakness. The strong must be careful lest they be overwhelmed by the ambitions of those working beneath them in concert. Any master who instructs more than one apprentice in the ways of the dark side is a fool. In time, the apprentices will unite their strengths and overthrow the master. It is inevitable; axiomatic. That is why each master must have only one student.

This is also the reason there can only be one Dark Lord. The Sith must be ruled by a single leader: the very embodiment of the strength and power of the dark side. If the leader grows weak another must rise to seize the mantle. The strong rule; the weak are meant to serve. This is the way it must be.

And the brotherhood of the Darkness was pretty much doing the opposite and Bane realized this. And btw the sith or the rule of two did something that BOD,Kun's BOS, and Revan's sith empire never did and that was have control of the entire galaxy. Bane was a smart sith to do this and the results showed.

Quark_666

Lord Knightfall, you aren't bad at making points (though some of the points themselves are wrong), but you could have a much more airtight argument if you wrote shorter posts. Fascistcrusader and Elite Hunter jumped on a single phrase you wrote out of that whole post, and I would love to pick you apart about the difference between a Sith and a Jedi, but since that is off subject I'm not going to start that.

Just a tip.

Lord Knightfa11

the "sith is just a evil jedi" thing is a qoute from borborad. someone who severely got his butt kicked to the next century.

I thought the rule of two is a stupid Idea because it doesnt even hope to have a match for the Jedi's Hundreds. Unless you put together two INCREDIBLY powerful and intelligent sith like Vader and Sideous. I was mistaken.

thanks for reading the rest of my arguement. and stay on topic. this isnt about bane.

Lord Knightfa11

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
He obviously has not read the darth bane books. Even Revan knew how flawed these sith groups are

Those who accept the power of the dark side must also accept the challenge of holding on to it. By its very nature the dark side invites rivalry and strife. This is the greatest strength of the Sith: it culls the weak from our order. Yet this rivalry can also be our greatest weakness. The strong must be careful lest they be overwhelmed by the ambitions of those working beneath them in concert. Any master who instructs more than one apprentice in the ways of the dark side is a fool. In time, the apprentices will unite their strengths and overthrow the master. It is inevitable; axiomatic. That is why each master must have only one student.

This is also the reason there can only be one Dark Lord. The Sith must be ruled by a single leader: the very embodiment of the strength and power of the dark side. If the leader grows weak another must rise to seize the mantle. The strong rule; the weak are meant to serve. This is the way it must be.

And the brotherhood of the Darkness was pretty much doing the opposite and Bane realized this. And btw the sith or the rule of two did something that BOD,Kun's BOS, and Revan's sith empire never did and that was have control of the entire galaxy. Bane was a smart sith to do this and the results showed.

sorry about that one... I r a noob. I have not read the bane books, just the wikipedia about bane, and my theory was that while the jedi have hundreds, the sith are only allowed to have one. soz.

Wtf is a neb sock?

Elite Hunter

My time is limited so I wont have time to look for the quote of there being 10,000 jedi so if any1 else finds it please do post. Oh and knightfall if you don't know how to use the quotes at least puts some spaces between them so it is easier to know who I'm responding to.

The thing Bastilla doesn't have to engage Malak for more than about 10 seconds. All she has to do is delay Malak to give them a head start. So this point is kind of moot since we don't know how long they battled other than the fact the Malak had to hold back since he spared her yet she was going all out.

It might be true the Bastilla would be more prepared for jedi vs jedi or sith combat than qui-gon or ob1. But the fact is Maul was injured (on his leg i believe) for the duel. Furthermore he was the one leading the duo (qui gon recognizes this) and he did kill Qui-gon and in fact out dueled Ob1 who was enraged and using the darkside (a jedi using the darkside would surprise him) yet he still outdueled him hit a force push and by doing so in mid-air kenobi loses his lightsaber(not because of hole) so I could argue if the hole wasn't there that Kenobi would be unarmed for moment and Maul could continue the attack.

I'd say there is no one else who can beat him at makashi out of thousands of years of jedi or sith.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
QUOTE]During her short time as a Sith apprentice, she was capable of using Force powers such as Force Insanity, Force Choke, Force Wave, Force Shock, Force Plague, Force Breach, Drain Life, (Force Drain) and Force Stasis Field. From her point of view, she was more powerful than all but a few Jedi Masters.

Having or showing more offensive powers does not mean one is stronger. Based on the powers you listed I'd say that she has shown more offensive powers than some jedi like even Yoda maybe but does that mean she can beat him? NO

As far as Dooku being a match for MAce,I believe Mace said so himself though I don't have the time now to look so if some1 else can please do.

Nebaris was a member of this forum who has been banned 30 times now and keeps coming back.

Lord Knightfa11

o... well I am bran spanking new on this forum... and i dont think ive done anything worth being banned for that would make me look like nebaris...

qoute:
It might be true the Bastilla would be more prepared for jedi vs jedi or sith combat than qui-gon or ob1. But the fact is Maul was injured (on his leg i believe) for the duel. Furthermore he was the one leading the duo (qui gon recognizes this) and he did kill Qui-gon and in fact out dueled Ob1 who was enraged and using the darkside (a jedi using the darkside would surprise him) yet he still outdueled him hit a force push and by doing so in mid-air kenobi loses his lightsaber(not because of hole) so I could argue if the hole wasn't there that Kenobi would be unarmed for moment and Maul could continue the attack.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
too true, but what I meant is that bastilla has probably encountered Juyo before, whereas when maul was fighting the jedi, juyo had been on the verge of extinction, being replaced with Vapaad.
And, there were just so many more double bladed lightsabers when bastilla was alive then when kenobi Qui Gon Jinn.

qoute:
Having or showing more offensive powers does not mean one is stronger. Based on the powers you listed I'd say that she has shown more offensive powers than some jedi like even Yoda maybe but does that mean she can beat him? NO
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Her ability to engage malak for any ammont of time, (probably not ten seconds, as she became malak's apprentice, and I, at least, would not have an apprentice who was that much lower in skills then me) gives her some lightsaber skills, maybe enough to keep maul at bay, then if she used some force, it would put her at a slight advantage. thats all I meant with this. Yoda was named as "the most powerful enemy the darkness had ever known", so of course not, no she could not beat yoda.

and as for Maul being one of the most powerful sith apprentices in history, wouldnt dooku rise above him? Luke (yes, luke was Sideous's apprentice for a very short ammount of time)? Vader/Anakin? Id say this puts maul kind of low on the 10 most powerful sith apprentices in history... but, hes probably on there because, there were probably only 15 or 16 sith lords and apprentices since bane established the rule of two.

then there is bastilla who fought malak once, and revan twice, kept em busy for a while all three times, and I would rank malak mediocre as far as sith lords go, maybe even below average, and I would rank revan, just above average... so wouldnt she be pretty high on the apprentice chart?

Lord Knightfa11

Consequently, Master Nai Fool, "Psych" is way cooler then "House"...

0�Mandalore�0

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
As far as Dooku being a match for Mace, I believe Mace said so himself though I don't have the time now to look so if some1 else can please do.

Well, he was quite clearly wrong. Mace was able to defeat Darth Sidious himself as of ROTS. Why the hell would he lose against Dooku? I know "he > him so he < against him" are not valid, but it's just logical to assume Mace would be able to defeat him. Of course, without his Vaapad this could be a different story.

Lord Knightfa11

anyway, thats my opinion, I know im not going to change yours, and you know your not going to change mind. Bastilla is far more skilled. Im out of this boring thread of eternal not-enough-canon-data-to-make-an-effective-arguement-either-way. so, while our opinions may clash, the only way to really tell would be to ask George Lucas, and I dont know about you, but He probably wouldnt want to meet adoring fan of this story #57060979871...

so there you have it. the only person who could settle this is george lucas because there isnt enough canon data to settle it either way. Im sure if there was, this thread would be way shorter....

Gideon

Oh, please. You've yet to offer a shred of reasonable evidence to support your incredibly biased claims, if you assert that Bastilla is "mass pwnage!!1!" it is your duty to prove it. You've failed.

Lord Knightfa11

I have.

I have given every possible point of evidence that bastilla could take maul. i never said "mass pwnage!!1!"

you will never see things my way, and I am sorry, but I will probably never see things your way. we are now bickering constantly on the same points.

You people: maul was wounded and overconfident and was surprised when he died by a padawan

me: Bastilla has had way more experience with the type of combat that maul could hand out, fought against sith lords on multiple occasions, Had far more dueling experience, Has way more force powers then maul has ever shown, and survived her first episode....

and we are going to be debating this till trumpets sound Judgement day. then god will say "knightfall was right, now shut up" and then you will start debating with him.

I get tired when there are no new arguements or points to be distributed around, its just presenting the same facts over and over.

Gideon

You've, once again, yet to prove anything. As far as God is concerned, myself being something of a divine being, let me assure you that God speaking on your behalf is rather laughable; he typically likes to be right.

Lord Knightfa11

there... its all fricking spelled out for you. as you can see, bastilla outclasses him... sorry.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
there... its all fricking spelled out for you. as you can see, bastilla outclasses him... sorry.

Either you are Noobaris, or you are a dumber version of Noobaris. Either way you're getting pwned.

Lord Knightfa11

keep your noobaris obsessed little **** out of my business.

Lord Knightfa11

and exactly HOW does that statement make me stupid? its true. every point listed there is CANON. if anyone can debate this now, then im so outa the versus forum.

fascistcrusader

I dare say he might actually be a poster dumber than nebby. If that isn't the case he's a neb sock.

Elite Hunter

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
How incredibly Humanistic of you. If YOU are a divine being, then strike me dead at my computor.

1. Bastilla has dueled more.

I dare say that only 2 of her opponents were above average.

I already addressed this and proved that more powers doesn't automatically=a victory.

Overall maybe(she lost both) but in saber combat is very debatable

Possibly

That would be Dooku's opinion of Maul. Yet there is nothing to indicate they every met. Furthermore it has to do with Dooku's personality and his view of what is elegant(or proper) and what is not.

If she tries battle meditation then she dies because you actually have to sit down and meditate (unlike kotor II) Furthermore many other jedi/sith have the ability.

Yet she was defeated

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
Good Things going for maul that caused him to be able to kill Jinn.
1. More Physical Strength
Don't forget martial art skills

Except for the fact that Bastilla maybe ready in terms of not surprised by some1 using the forms but being able to defend against them is something else.

Except for the fact that Anoon Bondara's lightsaber skill was descrbed by the narrator as second to none. He was the lightsaber duelist at the time and he couldn't overcome Maul, this speaks volumes for Maul.

More experience

Elite Hunter

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

Bad things for bastilla that may cause her to lose:
1. She has never won a lightsaber duel.

Nor has she had as much experience,training, physical strength,speed and hate

Originally posted by Elite Hunter

Except for the fact that Anoon Bondara's lightsaber skill was descrbed by the narrator as second to none. He was the lightsaber duelist at the time and he couldn't overcome Maul, this speaks volumes for Maul.
And add to the fact that he killed Qui-gon and out dueled Ob1

See my Dooku post and both his opponents made 2 very unexpected moves and I dare say Bastilla would have died both times to.

See above and Revan couldn't predict Malak's betrayal, nor could Sidious predict Vader's betrayal and Mace couldn't see Anakin's shatterpoint which cost him his life. And again both moves were very unexpected. I doubt any1 would think that as your delivering the blow to vader he would stab through himself.

Looks like I just did and quite affectively too. smokin'

Lord Knightfa11

1. nobody can predict their deaths, but he shoulda seen that coming more then sideous saw his cruel, twisted, pure evil apprentice turning to the lightside at the last minute.

2. I already said he has more Training, Strength, Hate, and Physical speed....

3. We barely See Maul talk, and he really seems like more of a physical brute then a mental brute. I mean seriously.... From what we see, from what dooku (whom I understand is a valid 3rd person?) says, all evidence points that hes stupider then most.

4. A exceptional point that I keep making is that Maul is the apprentice that I would route on for just smacking lightsabers together. He is an extremely skilled LightSaber User... the mere fact that Anoon Bondara thought the best way to kill him would be through self sacrifice, gives him some skillz.... BUt, Jinn was killed by him PROBABLY because he was the wise old mentor/trainer more then the Powerful and Homicidal Jedi. and maybe he was more of the Jedi's politician (notice HE was picked for the mission to the trade federation?) Obi wan (especially in this movie) shows far more phyiscality (like maul). he outdueled them, sure, but he was still killed by a move that anyone else would have seen coming.

Human reaction time is .02 seconds. maul should have been at least able to react to it when he saw obi wan jumping, as this scene is probably 200 times as long as the average human reaction time.

Yes, he is NOT human, but alot of the evidence you have shown me goes to show that he would have a FASTER reaction time.

So, He should have seen this coming, this might just be an inconsitency on Lucas's part, and maybe, maul should have won and had another cool fight in episode II as Dooku's freind/apprentice. of course, kenobi could fall and land somewhere safe in the big reactor shaft thing. like a service ledge? just a thought.

I mean technically Maul survived and spent the rest of his life looking for Kenobi to try and kill him, and finally cought up with him on tattooine, in which case, he would have died a second time at kenobi's hands, although kenobi was far more skilled at this point.

Elite Hunter

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
1. nobody can predict their deaths, but he shoulda seen that coming more then sideous saw his cruel, twisted, pure evil apprentice turning to the lightside at the last minute.
Yeah because it is totally predictable that someone hanging from a cliff would not only jump up but pick up his dead master's ligthsaber in mid-air. And how about Mace not seeing Anakin's shatterpoint? Or Bane not realizing the jedi who did B.M. was still alive or Revan who is suppose to have good precognition skills not sensing Malak's betrayal. Evry1 makes mistakes and no one's foresight is 100 accurate especially in the heat of battle.

Which is y i mentioned it.

Wrong from what I understand he is quite gifted at building droids and mechanical items of the sort. Plus that is Dooku's opinion and you have to understand that it is Count Dooku who is more of the elegant type. For all you know calling him an animal could be describing him because he is no human. I believe he even talks similar about General Grievous. So being called animal could refer to his looks or the way he fights not intelligence. Plus I highly doubt Sidious would want someone who is stupid to be his successor.

Or the reason qui-gon and ob1 were chosen was because they had a prior incident with the trade federation and then supreme chancellor valorum. You have yet to prove that any1 else could see the move coming much less bastilla. And if i'm not mistaken Qui-gon is called Qui gon-Qui-Gon Jinn was one of the most able swordsmen in the Jedi order So he does have saber skill even at his age in tpm which would also mean he would experience on his side.

And Ob1 isn't the average human at all. Plus Maul wasn't even in a fighting stance. And how can any1 predict a head of time that he will pick a lightsaber in midair like that?

As far as i'm aware that battle was considered not to be canon.