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Combatants: Siddious, Nilihus, and Sion

Location: Palpatine's office


Scenario: sion and nilihus storm into his office and challenge him. GO!!!

hmm....

interesting. I would have to say nihilus because he was pretty powerful and scion because he is pretty much invincible.

even if he did kill nihilus he could just keep beating on scion until scion was able to get a shot in.

K?

I might go with the duo but it will be close and in the end I see Sion dieing either way. I don't think he would be of any help if he is decapitated or loses his limbs. So only Nihilus or Sidious will be walking away from this alive. Oh and knightfall use the "edit" button instead of triple posting.

k... I am a forums noob....

Damn, I hate Nilihus!

He and the "invincible" Sion probably win though.

Hell yeah The Duo win!!

Nihilus could do this alone.

I mean how great can Palpatine be? He doesn't even have a first name for Siths sake!!!

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Hell yeah The Duo win!!

Nihilus could do this alone.

I mean how great can Palpatine be? He doesn't even have a first name for Siths sake!!! According to facts and the ancient sith: supremely more powerful than nihilus.

Blah, Blah, Blah

change the record.

ROTS Sidious is powerful, but so are Nihilus and Sion. Between Sion's invincibility and Nihilus's Drain I don't see how Sidious could take them both out at the same time.

Sidious also has a force drain, and Sion wouldn't be too big a deal for all of Sidious' powerful techniques. I find it difficult to believe he could take a beating from one of Palpatine's force storms.

Palpatine wins this. He is The Man after all.

Originally posted by E-Hotshot
Palpatine wins this. He is The Man after all.


High Nebaris banned

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Hell yeah The Duo win!!

Nihilus could do this alone.

I mean how great can Palpatine be? He doesn't even have a first name for Siths sake!!!

I'm sorry to tell you this, but Sidious is stated to be the most powerful Sith ever. Individually, there is no one (Sith) who can match him. Period.

No but there are Sith who come very close to ROTS Sidious.

Like who? I've never heard of any other Sith who mastered every dark side technique...

Originally posted by darthsith19
No but there are Sith who come very close to ROTS Sidious.

Yes, but not close enough to beat him.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Like who? I've never heard of any other Sith who mastered every dark side technique...

No but there are sith than can put up a really tough fight on ROTS Sidious.

I'd say Bane(in saber combat due to the orbalisks but he would lose a force fight also die due to the orbalisks)Exar Kun,Darth Caedus, Nihilus, Revan(while considered to be less than yoda is still in yoda's league imo) all for sure can put up a tough fight. And based on what little we know of them I would say that Ragnos and Nadd can put a good fight but not to much is known of them so I will just leave it at that. ROTS Sidious can't pwn any of the sith mentioned above and a 2v1 with any combo of the known sith above I believe stand a chance to beat him.

I'd say Bane(in saber combat due to the orbalisks but he would lose a force fight also die due to the orbalisks)

Yes, but Sidious powerful lighting would render his orbalisks obsolete. In an all out fight Bane would fall against RotS Sids.

ROTS Sidious can't pwn any of the sith mentioned above and a 2v1 with any combo of the known sith above I believe stand a chance to beat him.

Perhaps not ROtS Palpatine, but there is no doubt in my mind that DE Palpatine would be able to take them in two on one matches without too much difficulty.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Perhaps not ROtS Palpatine, but there is no doubt in my mind that DE Palpatine would be able to take them in two on one matches.

That too can be debatable depending on the two sith he would be facing. But I'd probably agree with you for the most part though he would be in for a tough fight.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Yes, but Sidious powerful lighting would render his orbalisks obsolete. In an all out fight Bane would fall against RotS Sids.


Hence the reason I'd said he lose due to the orbalisks in a force fight and I know that he falls all out.

That too can be debatable depending on the two sith he would be facing. But I'd probably agree with you for the most part though he would be in for a tough fight.


Nihilus and Caedus would pose the major threat, but DE Sidious could probably take them both after a long and difficult fight, but in my opinion DE Sidious would take Exar-Revan comfortably, and I don't know enough about Ragnos or Nadd to make that call.

Hence the reason I'd said he lose due to the orbalisks in a force fight and I know that he falls all out.

I know, but we're just talking about a straight up fight here. The very fact that we have to make up special circumstances for Bane to pose a threat makes it a poor example IMO.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Nihilus and Caedus would pose the major threat, but DE Sidious could probably take them both after a long and difficult fight, but in my opinion DE Sidious would take Exar-Revan comfortably, and I don't know enough about Ragnos or Nadd to make that call.

As would Kun and Caedus or Kun and Nihilus. Bane is tough a call honestly because of his orbalisks become a disadvantage with someone who uses lightning like sidious but they are really helpful in saber duels. I would say that out of the known sith I mentioned Revan would have to be (overall) the weakest but Bane and lightning is a tough call. Now if we would put Caedus,Kun and Nihilus together i think DE sidious would lose or if he could somehow pull victory which i honestly have my doubts) he would be in for the hardest fight of his life.



That is true but it is not as easy to put a our hand shoot Bane with lightning and he falls (all out) due his lightsaber and im not sure if a force shield could withstand it. The orbalisks are a double edged sword.

Palpatine is better with a saber than Bane though. Sidious had every form mastered, Bane was just good with form V.

I am aware of two separate sources that have each indicated that Darth Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord in history as of Revenge of the Sith. The first was the statement -- "Yoda could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history" -- issued by Voren Na'al, the head of the Galactic Alliance's Historical and Research division. The second was the out-of-universe statement in the Attack of the Clones Ultimate Visual Guide (also featured in the Complete Visual Dictionary), citing that Sidious was "the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power" (and one should note that, at this point, all of Palpatine's machinations and schemes had not yet yielded any true result for, at this time, he was only the Supreme Chancellor of the Galactic Republic, with explicitly limited powers). This does not take into account the statements issued by the Dark Side Sourcebook ("the most powerful of was Darth Sidious...", The Essential Guide to the Force ("Darth Sidious proved to be the grim culmination of a thousand years of Sith philosophy and teachings", or another statement indicated by the Complete Visual Dictionary ("The Sith have waited a millennium for the birth of one who is powerful enough to return them from hiding. Darth Sidious is that one."

That said, however, there are several Force-users who can compete with -- and defeat -- Sidious as of RotS. As he gradually ascends to a higher level of power during the OT, the list thins. And, finally, during his status as Dark Empire -- I'd say, for certain, only Luke Skywalker as of the latter stages of New Jedi Order can individually compete with the Galactic Emperor.

By 'several Force-users' you mean only Jedi, correct?

Interesting points. You said Marka Ragnos could be equal to Sidious as of ROTS, in terms of power, knowledge, and skill? I'm amused. Why would you say so, when almost nothing about him is known? I'm sure you must have a good reason.

Yes, it shouldn't be a stretch. Something wouldn't be right if it was.

I know I misunderstood you, but actually the only reason why I would've been amused is because you said it. If someone else says 'Ragnos compares to Sidious', I wouldn't pay as much attention.

In my opinion, Ragnos is a very interesting character. It would be great to know more about him.

Sekot would destroy Palpatine. Being able to cut almost the entire Yuuzhan Vong race (numbering in the trillions) from the force is a level of power that drawfs Palpatine's own.

And Palpatine could destroy Sekot with his force storm. Then again, who is to compare Sidious to a planet? Escape hit it spot on in terms of comparing oher characters to Sidious. I personally don't agree with the notion that Jacen Solo's power has increased exponentially and in such as short time, when it was supposed to happen to Anakin Solo who was noted as the most powerful of the three and the one who would have eventually took over Luke's order. The same goes with Kyp. I would argue that Revan belongs on the same level as Exar Kun, and I don't think either of them could have competed with post ROTS Palpatine..

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
And Palpatine could destroy Sekot with his force storm.

Nothing indicates that his force storms would even be able to destroy a regular planet, let alone a living one that possesses titanic ability with the force.

Darth Bane could destroy a planet.
Admittedly with some help, but as it was stated that he was more powerful then them all I have to wonder if they were really needed.
Also its possible to argue that he would be able to do it alone after his 10 years of additional training/ adventures.



You're all insane and ridiculously far up Sisious' arse


Where is that stated? Because I read that damn book and came up with squat.

No Noobaris.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Where is that stated? Because I read that damn book and came up with squat.

Even if they were not considered the best, what he did is still very, very impressive. I'd like you to name at least two other Sith Lords who would be able to kill three of the most experienced and powerful Jedi Masters of the ROTS Order in less than 5 seconds.

This is my opinion and does not reflect canonicity in any possible way...
Therefore, do not debate/argue on it in any way. If I am wrong on any canon fact I make, correct me.

Ok it says sideous is "the most powerful sith" but is he more powerful then two of the most powerful? from what I understand Nihilus is VERY powerful, and Scion is Nigh on Invincible (or is that just gameplay mechanics to pose a challenge?) so, could he be teamed to death by these two?

Nihilus kept a whole ship together using the force, and he is pretty dang powerful just by 3rd person witnesses, And Scion is invincible and pretty skilled with the lightsaber from what I understand.

i guess my point is that Sideous would be able to tool either one of them singly, but he couldnt incapacitate Scion to get him out of the game, and he couldnt easily distract Nihilus with scion pounding on him as well, so he would pretty much have to convince scion to die and then kill nihilus or vice versa. but up until then, he would have to be dueling them both simultaneously.... A challenge I think just might be too great.

1. Nihilus- Killed the Jedi gathering on Kattar
2. Traya- Force Drain was so powerful that it took down the 3 top Jedi in the order in an instance.

Crap. I hope that he hasn't given up. I'm not ready to go solo.

hehe owned. Nice job exodus.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
1. Nihilus- Killed the Jedi gathering on Kattar
2. Traya- Force Drain was so powerful that it took down the 3 top Jedi in the order in an instance.

That is not what I meant. I guess I forgot to say 'with a lightsaber'.
However, forcewise, Palpatine's Force storm could kill entire fleets by DE. Traya's drain doesn't even come close, so she's out of the contest.

Nihilus alone could fight with ROTS Sidious.

He could, but only because of his insanely powerful drain.

If by his 'control over the Force' you mean 'he was able to hold the Ravager (or whatever its name was) together' then no. This would be irrelevant at a Force battle.

itt shows his immensely powerful TK
which would be handy

Originally posted by 123KID
itt shows his immensely powerful TK
which would be handy

Yes, but that skill in particular, of being able to hold the Ravager, does not help him on a duel.

I'm talking about that skill in particular, I get your point, no need to repeat it.

Which, if you think about it, is absolutely impossible. How could you create a Storm in the cold vacuum of space. There wouldn't be any wind.
Or matter.
Or energy.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Which, if you think about it, is absolutely impossible. How could you create a Storm in the cold vacuum of space. There wouldn't be any wind.
Or matter.
Or energy.

Star Wars isn't necessarily obligated to function based on real-world physics or facts. What remains true is that Palpatine is easily capable of demolishing fleets, among other things.

Nuff' said.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Which, if you think about it, is absolutely impossible. How could you create a Storm in the cold vacuum of space. There wouldn't be any wind.
Or matter.
Or energy. It's not an actual storm, it's a wormhole.

Yay i'm back, i'll stay out of the game versus forums from now on. Back to topic.

Personally i think nihilus could engage ROTS palpatine in a fight but would ultimately lose seeing the fact that it has been stated numerous times that palpatine as of ROTS is superior to nihilus.

Palpatine as of ROTS is superior to any other Sith, and that's a fact.

Originally posted by Man of Christ
Combatants: Siddious, Nilihus, and Sion

Location: Palpatine's office


Scenario: sion and nilihus storm into his office and challenge him. GO!!!

Sidious gets raped.

not easily thou... Think about it a second. Sideous might be more powerful then any other sith singularly, but what about two of some of the most poweful contenders at the same time?

Long hard fight, but eventually, sideous gets whats coming to him.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
not easily thou... Think about it a second. Sideous might be more powerful then any other sith singularly, but what about two of some of the most poweful contenders at the same time? Just how powerful is sion really?
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

Long hard fight, but eventually, nihilus gets whats coming to him. Corrected.

Powerful enough to:

1. Survive the Mando wars
2. become a Sith Lord
3. Boss around a bunch of other Sith
4. Be trained by Traya
5. Cut off Traya's hand
6. Stand up to the Exile
7. Kill Atton

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Powerful enough to:

1. Survive the Mando wars
So? Nobodies like sia lan wezz could survive an even greater catastrophe like order 66 yet got wtf owned by vader.
Originally posted by Darth Exodus

2. become a Sith Lord
Ha, being a sith lord isn't indicative of ones power. Look at people like githany and the BOD.
Originally posted by Darth Exodus

3. Boss around a bunch of other Sith
Boss a bunch of nobodies
Originally posted by Darth Exodus

4. Be trained by Traya
Big deal, how is that an indication of massive power? Kreia still > sion by miles.
Originally posted by Darth Exodus

5. Cut off Traya's hand
Whoope fu*king do, and luke hacked of palpatines hand, so i guess he as of DE is a god.
6. Stand up to the Exile
Originally posted by Darth Exodus

7. Kill Atton Cut content = non canon.

Sidious is more powerful according to half of KMC, the observation of the in-universe historian who wrote a histories of the saga shortly after Sidious was deposed, and Sidious himself. So yeah, nothing objective there. Sidious has an incredible display of the Force, but his Force storm doesn't make him immortal, and the fact that he could rip space and time in his little office before getting skewered by Sion or getting thrown around like a ragdoll and eaten by Nihilus just baffles the mind. Luke Skywalker was able to get a hand up on Sidious before he was strong enough to open his own academy, and Luke's no saber god at that point. Sion is pretty much able to butcher Jedi masters like its his job, absorb an unclarified and likely high level of physical pain and abuse without falling apart (His body was torn and battered thousands of times and held together with his will; Nihilus, for his part, dominated an entire ship's crew and army and held it together with his will and bitchslapped Traya who can kill Jedi masters with a wave of her hand).

So yeah, Nihilus and Sion together have higher showings in immediate personal power. Nihilus is pretty much a walking plot device and only the Exile could have taken him on, and Sion can't be killed outright that we know of (Perhaps only taken apart and obliterated). So yeah, they rush him and he dies. period. No epic fight.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Sidious is more powerful according to half of KMC, the observation of the in-universe historian who wrote a histories of the saga shortly after Sidious was deposed, and Sidious himself. So yeah, nothing objective there. Sidious has an incredible display of the Force, but his Force storm doesn't make him immortal, and the fact that he could rip space and time in his little office before getting skewered by Sion or getting thrown around like a ragdoll and eaten by Nihilus just baffles the mind. Luke Skywalker was able to get a hand up on Sidious before he was strong enough to open his own academy, and Luke's no saber god at that point. Sion is pretty much able to butcher Jedi masters like its his job, absorb an unclarified and likely high level of physical pain and abuse without falling apart (His body was torn and battered thousands of times and held together with his will; Nihilus, for his part, dominated an entire ship's crew and army and held it together with his will and bitchslapped Traya who can kill Jedi masters with a wave of her hand).
Again with this Sidious nonsense. No offense Janus but give it a rest. You're a very intelligent guy but even you need to stop arguing obvious facts. Btw how's Nihilus going to "eat" Sidious? Sidious knows the Fallanassi looping technique. What' Nihilus going to eat? Then you mention how Luke took off Palpatine's hand. Did you forget he had the help of Leia and the unborn Ben? Did you forget that they both were powerful enough not to be seen even by a force uesr like Leia? Palpatine was killing his troops while he was fighting Luke. Pretty damn powerful. Then we have Palpatine's force lightning. The force storm is useless in a 1 on 2 confrontation. And btw, if Nihilus held the Ravager with his will, it would have fallen apart when he died. Tobin is a fallible 3rd party character.



Sion slew Jedi Masters like it was his job? Care to quantify the abilities of the said Jedi Masters? The same Sion who got talked to death by the average Exile? Give me a break. If the exile could talk him to death, what is the MASTER manipulator of the star wars galaxy going to do? You are right that Nihilus' personal eating power is unbelievable, but Sidious force storm was said to be the most powerful dark side ability to date. Not to mention Nihilus can't eat what he can't sense..

There is no reason to be petty, Janus. If you're going to take the rest of us down this dark corridor, you might want to make sure that you turn on all of the lights; you might trip on something.

Welcome back, by the way.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Sidious is more powerful according to half of KMC, the observation of the in-universe historian who wrote a histories of the saga shortly after Sidious was deposed, and Sidious himself. So yeah, nothing objective there.

Would you like to debate this? Aside from failing to put one source into proper context, I would also point out that the Galactic Emperor isn't the only other source of his own superiority over the other Dark Lords. Since you're much more of an interesting opponent than Nebaris here, I'd be willing to take the time to argue this.



Based on what? Your say-so? No, I don't think so, Janus. While Darth Sion has been able to "butcher Jedi masters like its his job", you have not substantiated this to make it worthwhile. Darth Sidious, on the other hand, butchered three of the "finest swordsmen in the order's history" in less than a minute and held Count Dooku in servile submission for over a decade. That alone puts him well beyond your interpretation of Sion's acquired skill; that the Exile was able to manipulate him into abandoning his immortality speaks very well for the likelihood that Darth Sidious would easily be able to do the same -- especially since the New Essential Guide to the Force makes it very clear that the Emperor was well aware of the events that occured on Malachor V.

So, I'm afraid not. Of the two, only Nihilus could compete in terms of power.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Sidious is more powerful according to half of KMC, the observation of the in-universe historian who wrote a histories of the saga shortly after Sidious was deposed, and Sidious himself. So yeah, nothing objective there.
Are you going to continue ignoring all the evidence now that this much time as past? It's gotten very old

If this is rOTS Palpatine, then no, he's not going to be able to. Palpatine's the most powerful, but of course he's not going to be able to win against two very powerful Sith in a confined space. He'll make them remember they had a fight, though.

How many times do I have to correct you here? Luke is described as a Saber master in Dark Empire and in other sources, we know he and Palpatine became avatars of the respective sides of the Force. Just like ganner, just like Jacen, a state of practical invincibility.
So really, spare me the downplaying

Good for him. Where is he able to resist his body flying apart when cut up? And when does Sion butcher these supposed Masters? With only 100 Jedi left, how many were masters, how many did he butcher?


Good for him. Palpatine dominated an entire fleet and city on Coruscant at different points

At that time, yes. I can think of quite a few others who could have taken Nihilus.
And what's Sion's great showing of personal power in combat?

Ok, then...so, what're their great shows of saber ability, now? We've got evidence of Palpatine's saber abilities from Maul, from his being able to hold his own against two of the finest duelists who ever lived, superiority to other great duelists of the age...and this is ROTS, mind you.
And really, don't throw around how Sion can't be killed. Because, I'm willing to bet if his head flies off, no matter how alive he may be, he's going to be out of the fight.
In sher force power, Palpatine's stronger than both, sure, but he probably won't stand up to two of the other most powerful. Reduce this to saber combat? Sion and Nihilus just got a whole lot more unimpressive

And to offer conclusive proof to confirm that the then-powerful Luke Skywalker was unable to defeat the Galactic Emperor:



-- The Essential Guide to the Force, page 7.

To add one more thing. If you are going to ignore the MYRIADS of sources claiming Palpatine is #1 due to some loophole or your biased interpretation, realize that the Ancient Sith themselves called him the strongest of them all.

Exploiting loopholes, while not remarkably ethical, is completely effective. But, as in many cases, one must make a good argument to cast doubt on an issued statement. For example, Nebaris's preferred tactic is to argue semantics; to transfer any statement regarding Palpatine's undeniable strength in the dark side as an example of his "dedication" or how "evil" he was or how his upper level demonstrations of power are "ritualistic in nature"; his most awe-inspiring example of the attempts is when he took the statement: " succeeded where all others failed in taming the dark side" and attempted to claim that to tame is to weaken. These are wretched and illogical examples of exploiting loopholes and I reiterate: anything contrary to the straightforward interpretation bears the burden of proof; simply claiming that a quote is "ambiguous!" or whatnot requires supporting evidence to demonstrate how one can reach that conclusion.

In the past, the attempts lack such evidence, so they are to be ignored.

still, how is palpatine going to talk Scion Down while Nihilus is banging on him?

and, The Exile is somewhat of a "master manipulater" in the fact that the reason the Jedis Took his force away was because of his exceptional ability to make force bonds and manipulate Jedi to his cause.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
still, how is palpatine going to talk Scion Down while Nihilus is banging on him?

An observant person would notice that I never said that the Galactic Emperor would be able to "talk Sion down"; I simply said, and with a good basis, that he is capable of doing such. Janus Marius, no doubt distracted or very tired, made a very unsupported claim and expected it to hold some great amount of weight. He failed to substantiate how Darth Sion "butchering Jedi Masters like it's his job" somehow suggests that he is on a level with the Emperor -- much less his superior, and he fails to account for Palpatine's butchery of three of the Order's finest swordsmen. Even with his de facto invulnerability, Sion is hardly fallible, as what amounts to an "average" Jedi, according to Nai Fohl, was capable of convincing him to relinquish this particular trait. The New Essential Guide to the Force makes it very plain that the Emperor was fully aware of the debacle at Malachor V, and -- of course -- Palpatine has demonstrated a peerless skill at manipulation. He is easily capable of performing the identical feat. In short: nothing suggests that Sion is, in terms of acquired skill, on a level with the Galactic Emperor.

However, given the considerable Force prowess of Nihilus, you're very right -- Palpatine could not waste precious energy on Sion while trying to deal with Nihilus and depending on the circumstances, the two are quite easily capable of overwhelming him. However, one can also make room for the possibility of the Galactic Emperor incapacitating Sion (which he is easily capable of doing) and then dealing with Nihilus. Either Sidious barely wins or he is defeated.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
still, how is palpatine going to talk Scion Down while Nihilus is banging on him?

Easy. He kills Nihilus in saber combat, then takes down Sion with manipulating.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
and, The Exile is somewhat of a "master manipulater" in the fact that the reason the Jedis Took his force away

The Jedi never took her Force Power away (note: The Exile is canonically female), she was stripped of it naturally at the First Battle of Malachor V.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
still, how is palpatine going to talk Scion Down while Nihilus is banging on him?

and, The Exile is somewhat of a "master manipulater" in the fact that the reason the Jedis Took his force away was because of his exceptional ability to make force bonds and manipulate Jedi to his cause.

Where is this assumption coming that Sion's skin and bones is somehow saber resistant? Especially considering it'll cauterize the wounds, making reconnection VERY difficult for him? He's probably going to fight rather than sit back and hold a civilized debate. As I said, I have the feeling that even if he can stay alive without his head, he won't be able to fight much.

I can only see Sidious or Nihilus walking away from the battle. Sion might have the chance to become Simus II. Though this battle is a very tough call.

tdtd:



Wait, so you're saying Sidious is going to win against Nihilus because he's going to use some obscure looping technique and what? Nihilus and Sion are going to just stand there and die?

That's just plain stupid. Sidious is going to have two Sith Lords attacking him, using the Force in ways he probably hasn't had to deal with. It won't be like Larry, Curly, and Moe who just stand there while he kills them with the Psycho Crusher. Nihilus himself was able to overcome Traya; Traya herself was able to kill three Jedi Masters with a wave of her hand. I'll be damned if they didn't get a single finger moved when she attacked. They were stone dead.

Now, let's put two pieces of fact together to make an observation:

Traya is clearly head and shoulders above the three Jedi Masters, who themselves were pretty remarkable for their era. Some people here would have it that they are weak as kittens, but that's bullshit- these were Jedi Masters with incredible Force powers. The fact that Traya can snap her fingers and kill them at will (And latter an entire Sith ambush party) only hints to her own considerable powers.

Part two, Nihilus literally schools Traya. Sion beats her like a dog while Nihilus shoves her all over the place. She was helpless. She could do nothing in return. She was 'cast down' and broken before them. Traya, who can kill Jedi masters with a wave of her hand.

So my observation is thus: If Sion and Nihilus can casually overcome her and wreck her style, what in the hell is RotS Sidious going to do? And don't give me this shit about OT-era Sidious either. That's a generation later.



If you believe that Sidious is going to talk Sion to death, you're just sadly delusional.

SIDIOUS: Hey, I don't know you. Kill yourself! I'm a nice guy, I swear!

SION: We have no prior relationship, my former master does not favor you, and you're not canonically a chick so I don't have feelings for you. But hey, I'll kill you for your shiny lightsaber.

Please, don't be ridiculous. The Exile is able to use Sion's despair and the situation to his/her advantage, and it has ****-all to do with "master manipulator" skills. Sidious and Sion obviously don't have the same love-hate relationship as Sion and Traya and the Exile. If you're arguing that a plot device would extend to entirely different circumstances (Ignoring the widely-held idea that Versus matches are to be neutral grounds for combat) then you're really smoking on that exhaust pipe too often. By this sort of logic, baby Anakin is the Chosen One and MUST destroy the Sith. Ergo, he wrecks all Sith Lords who come his way, except Obi-Wan.

Really. How stupid is that logic?



Right, because Nihilus can't see Sidious right in front of him. Apparently he sees at a cosmic scale like Traya said.... oh wait, OMFG teh thurd partie r teh failabble!!!111

Seriously, stop eating paste and wake up. Sidious is NOT going to conjure a Force ability which requires concentration and effort and oh, TIME in a small room (especially when said ability oh, rips space and time) while Sion and Nihilus are trying to make his balls into cufflinks.

Escape:



I'm hardly being petty. I feel I have a right to correct gross-assumption when I see it. Clearly you do too, or you wouldn't be replying.



I'm not. I've never made the assertion that Sidious > all. Therefore I don't have to prove it.



1. Sion really did butcher Jedi Masters like his job. Or did you not play KotOR II? He's directly responsible for the murder of exiled and hiding Jedi, and he kills Master Vash on Korriban. It's not the feat so much as the fact that he's obviously not some low-rung goon with a lightsaber and no talent.

2. Finest swordsman in the order's history, taken literally by yourself because it fits your argument, seems to contradict the movie representation of the fight (Which is itself ultimate canon according to Leland Chee). If the order's finest stand around and let M. Bison stab them with all the warning in the world, then the order by this sort of logic must be pathetic. Is that also your assertion?

3. So Count Dooku calling him master means he can by extention beat Darth Sion in a fight? Shit, let me try that. Ragnos had the entire Sith race including its Sith Lords in "servile submission". Ragnos beats everybody.

4. I'm sure T3-M4 knows what happened at Malachor V too. Wait, maybe he can take on Sion and Nihilus too. Apparently being aware of a past event makes you the master of all that occured there. No wonder I seek to become a history teacher.

LS:



Where is the "evidence"? LFL has yet to make a claim that Sidious is the best of all time. In-universe claims and your own personal assertions don't really replace official doctrine.



I'm sorry, it's just that the entire scenario seems pretty uh... silly to me? Sidious is the best Dark Lord of all time, most powerful, most uber, most perfect... And he's overcome by the non-trained Leia, a baby, and Luke "I ain't got the powers to control falling to the dark side" Skywalker. That's a bit like being lobbed into a reactor shaft by a cripple who's over six feet tall. I mean, really. Talk about blunders.

.... Skipping some parts here, because this argument is becoming yet another "Sidious is the best, if you disagree with this you are our mortal enemy" type argument, and I wasn't really hoping for one of those. It's sort of impossible NOT to have one though, with the folks around here.

Back to tdtd:



This from a poster who has yet to ever make his own argument, provide accurate sources or proofs, or even realize when he's commiting logical mutilation.

Please, prove this or shut right up.

True, but the one, great difference between us is that only one of us has committed a gross-assumption and it isn't me.



No one suggested that you did. However, you did neglect the numerous other sources that indicate the Emperor's superiority over all other Dark Lords of the Sith, and by doing so, you've resurrected the time-tried argument itself. Because you're not nearly as annoying as Nebaris, I'd be willing to take the time to argue the case against you, which will likely happen regardless if you keep posting to the contrary.



1. No one here has denied that Darth Sion was responsible for the deaths of Jedi Masters. What we have denied is your implication that that somehow places him on a tier equal to or higher than the Emperor. Since you've failed to substantiate the relative potency of these so-called Jedi Masters and the circumstances in which they were defeated, you've essentially offered nothing to prove your point.



Oh, so there is a metaphorical side to the statement that they were among the "finest swordsmen in the Order's history"? Ah, yes. I suppose what the Revenge of the Sith novelization's narrator was a lust-filled female, and was making reference to their athletic bodies and handsome faces. I'd never considered that; though, of course, there is an excellent reason why: because it's stupid. My assertion is that George Lucas made it explicitly clear in the Making of Revenge of the Sith book that "you have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor". This fact does not contradict or negate the skills of the other three.



Ah, is that what this is all about? Are you still bearing the grudge that you went from "Ragnos is all-powerful!1!!!1!" to backpedaling and focusing all your efforts on merely keeping Sidious from ordained as the strongest? That would do it. Count Dooku calling him master and the veritable fear he felt of Darth Sidious would be a notch in his master's cap, as would fear from the Ancient Sith be a notch in Ragnos's.



No. But being naturally more powerful than your foes and equipped with knowledge about them, where in contrast, they are completely ignorant of you would be a handy advantage.

Right.



What sources? Why is no one able to cite these sources? So apparently because everyone on KMC says it and no one has yet to cite an infallible source, I am somehow resurrecting an argument?

Yeah, here's my argument: If you guys don't prove up, then I guess you can't really make a claim, huh? Conclusion: your assertion is unsubstantiated.



No one here has really indicated why Sion has to be on a higher tier or equal to RotS Sidious to butcher him alongside Nihilus in a small room.



1. Seriously, if you can't tell those supposed "finest swordsman" sucked, then you must see only what you want. It's so damn evident it should be called the Jedi Trio Axiom. No defense, only one of them managed to touch blades with the Emperor. Nowhere near on the level of any of the major players in the series. Even AotC Obi-Wan showed more prowess.

2. GL also said something offhand in a commentary that Anakin probably scarred himself by falling in the bathtub. zomFG teh kannon!111



Actually, I'm not out to prove a damn thing about Ragnos. I just thought I'd use that bit to rile you up since your assertion was clearly not well thought out. Servitude does not equate inferiority in personal combat in every case. A horse can easily trample a rider.



Oh yes, because Sidious is officially more powerful according to LFL and he knows everything about his opponents whereas they are ignorant sods who would throw themselves on their own swords.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Right.

I was expecting a world-class comeback. Not your best, Janus.



Take the needle out of your arm, throw the syringe away, and pay attention. This thread did not start out as a platform for me to laud Emperor Palpatine's superiority or to protect the status quo. I didn't come here bearing sources until I am convinced that you'd be willing to participate in a debate.



Can I take this as "Yes, Gideon, I'd love to debate this with you"?



Because, otherwise, he's going to be deposited in the nearest trash recepticle, allowing Sidious to move onto Nihilus. I would use the expression "distraction" to describe Sion, but I believe that's an act of veritable charity; I'm not feeling generous.



1. Seriously, if you can't tell that your opinion doesn't really matter when it contradicts a higher authority (this would be canon), then you must suffer from selective vision. What the movie shows is that Windu's companions cannot compete with the Emperor, in agreement with Lucas's own words and design. The novelization (a G-canon source) confirms their status amongst the greatest of the great. Since you once used a line from Dark Rendezvous to establish Count Dooku on a level with Mace Windu in terms of swordplay, I think it's only fair that I get to do the same with a statement issued by an even higher authority. Unless you've become a full blown hypocrite since your hiatus.



Another disappointment. Should I let you go, and you can come back with something funnier in the morning? Really, Janus, your mockery (I'm referring to both this line and the majority of your unsubstantiated argument) doesn't change facts. George Lucas = canon. As I recall, you seemed to understand that best once Ushgarak interpreted it for you. I'm sure he's willing to do it again, but I personally won't. You know better.



I wouldn't be out to perform a task, either, if it were impossible. Can't hardly blame you.



Ah, yes, the color-blind pot calling the kettle black. Very effective, Janus. We can get into Count Dooku's remarkable fear of Darth Sidious. Would you like to?



They wouldn't have to throw themselves. I'm sure he could manage just fine.

It provoked you to make the above reply. I post "right", and you feel compelled to elaborate on it. Who's being petty?



Really? That's what it appears to be. Perhaps if you were more objective and thorough, it might appear different. But instead you and LS (and Me Too/tdtd) descend on the comment like hungry dogs on a hare. It's a bit like sand-blasting a soup cracker for all the effort it's worth to get you all to spontaneously run and defend Sidious.



So basically you refuse to prove your assertion? Does it matter if I remain and "participate" to your liking? I could act like a total asshat and it shouldn't matter. If you have a valid point, you should prove it using your reason and resources. Otherwise, don't make wild, unsupported assumptions.



You're also debating on a level worthy of tdtd; throwing out unsupported assumptions, sweeping generalizations, and blatant fanboyism here.



You may select one of the following:

A- Prove how those three are verifiably "the finest swordsmen in the Jedi Order's history" according to the highest source of canon (The films, as Leland Chee says we must "always look to first" without using some literal word you read elsewhere.

or

B- Stop making unsupported, nondefendable assertions.



You seem to be, ah, forgetting something here though. My point about Count Dooku is basically C-canon which is in turn backed up by more C-canon as I recall from our previous argument.

You are basically saying that a novel which defies the movie (read: highest canon) is somehow equally or more valid than that which it is drawn from. Which is plain stupid.



You see to fail to understand something very vital to your entire argument:

Literalism does not dictate reason.

GL has said that pretty much in the film only Mace and Yoda can compete with Sidious. Yeah. BFD. He didn't say "Only Mace or Yoda may ever defeat the Emperor ever in all situations.", so the statement is not specific enough to warrant the attention you give it.

Secondly, GL has said that he hasn't given any real thought as to how Anakin got his scar and that he supposes he got it falling in the tub. Cuz you know, prodigious Jedi fall in the tub all the time and get scar-lines.

Seriously, think about the whimsical nature of the word you take literally for once, and don't be a parrot.



Again, the point stands. Sidious being Dooku's master does NOT equate to him being better than Sion and Nihilus. Stay on topic please; don't rehash old arguments.



Yeah, let's hope they use some of the 'finest' skills ever displayed and stand there like tools.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
It provoked you to make the above reply. I post "right", and you feel compelled to elaborate on it. Who's being petty?

I'm hardly being petty. I feel that I have a right to comment when a notoriously witty debater such as yourself, who admittedly attempted to "provoke" me with a comment about Marka Ragnos, suddenly has a drought of humor and can only respond with "right".

Oh, c'mon, Janus. You're better than this.



You and I can argue, all night, which one of us is the more objective. I could bring up how you (had to pause to stifle the laughter) once argued that Count Dooku > Darth Sidious, and I'm sure you could try to bring up some logical hiccup that I've made, and you've got your friends to vouch for you, and I've got mine. The fact remains that if I were really adamant about "defending Sidious", I wouldn't have posted with the statement that he would very well lose this match, now would I? Tell me, when was the last time you've done that with Ragnos?



Of course it does. I'm not going to waste my time, preparing a considerable defense for Darth Sidious if it's going to be promptly and completely ignored. You're not the only one with a life around here, Janus.



Oh, but that would be so unlike you.



Janus, buddy, you seem to be avoiding the question. If you're willing to participate in the debate, I'll happily provide all the proof you need.



Yes. Blatant fanboyism. Which is why I made the above post with the statement that Sidious would likely lose this match. You've stumbled upon a complex scheme of mine (made in an inSidious fashion!) that involves tossing out red herrings to throw off the fact that I am a rabid Sidious fanboy. Your deductive skills are as keen as ever, Janus.



I'm a glutton; I'll take them all.



Gone from numbers to letters? Okay.

A - The novelization explicitly states that the trio are among the Order's finest swordsmen. The novelization corroborates the movie and adds perspective to the narrative that remains untouched in the cinema. Ergo, it still applies.



I'm sorry, someone's apparently gone and confused our orders. This one's clearly yours, do you perhaps have my real one?



I forget nothing. G-canon > c-canon. G-canon > 2(c-canon). G-canon > you.



Er... no. I'm basically saying that the novel, which defines the movie, offers more narrative than the movie, and applies because the movie does not contradict it.


Actually, Janus, the quote was: "YOU HAVE TO BE MACE OR YODA TO COMPETE WITH THE EMPEROR."

...No other names are mentioned, no loophole, no wriggle room. But if you could pick up Nebaris's 101 Tips For Failed Semantics Arguments, it might offer you some clever ways to screw up further.



Kind've like how all-powerful Sith Lords abandon their source of power when little girls tell them that their mother-figure doesn't like them anymore.



Now, now. Just because we're fighting doesn't mean that the whole Animal Kingdom has to be brought into this. Keep it civil, Janus.



Actually, the point falls. That Sidious held Dooku in a rather pathetic state of fear for the duration of their relationship suggests an intense domination over the aged former Jedi.



It would be an improvement to their current status, wouldn't it? They'd certainly do more damage.

It was nice debating with you, Janus. I'll take a look back in the morning to continue the next salvo.

Make sure you answer the big question so I can decide whether or not to prepare the big argument.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Wait, so you're saying Sidious is going to win against Nihilus because he's going to use some obscure looping technique and what? Nihilus and Sion are going to just stand there and die?
No I never said that. I don't know why you like to interpret what I said. I simply stated that Sidious has an answer for Nihilus' eating technique, that is all.


Care to quantify the abilities of these jedi masters?

Frankly, I'm going to let Escape handle this because I don't have the time nor the patience to debate a closed case anymore. You two enjoy.

Ironic that everybody has yet to reveal their arguments. The thing is I don't have to. I can just direct you to Escape and LS posts about Sidous being #1 and then having you ***** about the validity of them as you often do in a lost cause. What is your justification for the ancient sith claiming Palpatine is #1? Were they drunk? Are they not qualified to make that kind of statement? Hilarious.

Also Janus, claiming that I am a Sidious fanboy doesn't make it so, especially since your claim is unwarranted and flat out ridiculous. I could make the same claim about you being an ancient sith fanboy but there's a difference. I don't like Sidious and I was an ancient sith fanboy until I read all of the facts. You are still stuck with your losing arguments and overinflated ego. I would assume that someone with your intelligence, alleged debating skills, and flat out age, would be willing to admit defeat and stop wasting everyone's time with closed cases.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
tdtd:



Wait, so you're saying Sidious is going to win against Nihilus because he's going to use some obscure looping technique and what? Nihilus and Sion are going to just stand there
This is a faulty claim and you know it. When have Sion and Nihilus shown us anything regarding saber combat? Or even much force ability with Nihilus's drain gone?

He's studied Nihilus's holocron, somehow I doubt much of that will be a shock to him
It won't be like Larry, Curly, and Moe who just stand there while he kills them with the Psycho Crusher. Nihilus himself was able to overcome Traya; Traya herself was able to kill three Jedi Masters with a wave of her hand. I'll be damned if they didn't get a single finger moved when she attacked. They were stone dead.
Yeah? Palpatine killed three Jedi masters in an instant too, and unlike Traya's kills, all three of them had some pedigree going for them

Replace 'Traya' with 'Palpatine' and the same thing applies

Take out the parenthesis, replace 'Traya' with Palpatine...you get the picture

Because he can take the Force from her. With the looping technique as you seemed to admit, it's not going to happen the same way

Yeah, WITH THE FORCE, something she didn't have after Nihilus chucked her

Hm, for starters, making himself absolutely invisible in the Force isn't going to do wonders for Nihilus's drain. If it comes down to saber combat, what's going to happen? Unlike Sion and Nihilus, Palpatine has actually stood against opponents of merit in saber combat



Again, where does this strange assertion that Sion has a large force field around him come from?

You know what Palpatine does have? A lightsaber. You know what Sion will be lacking? Limbs and a head. Unless you have any proof he can somehow join them back together...


Probably because Nihilus doesn't have any EYES. We've seen a closeup of him and in between that wrinkled skin are two very empty sockets.

He doesn't have to. Quey'Tek would take less than a second

Let's name all these Jedi masters, then. Vash, if you noticed, had been captured by the Sith and tortured to death. Sion did not defeat her in combat

Why hello there choreography! By this logic, what does it do for Greedo's myopia or Han Solo's superhuman dodging ability? Or the fact that what your interpretation of those Masters means absolutely nothing to what they were? Does the movie outright say they sucked? No. In fact, Lucas outright says in the Making of ROTS, if you're not Mace or Yoda, you can't compete with Palpatine and those Jedi sure weren't 'The b-team'

How about having holocrons containing the knowledge? I'm pretty sure, also, T3 isn't a Sith Lord

Which is why they keep publishing material backing him up. Let's see: New Esential Chronology (Say all you like about it being 'in-universe' when the author displays indepth knowledge of Ragnos, Sadow, Kun, Ruin and Nihilus.) The Dark side Sourcebook, Heritage of the Sith (Which calls him the culmination of Sith Power), the new book 'Death Star', which states outright that Palpatine is the most powerful Sith the galaxy had ever known, The New Essential Guide to the Force which has Palpatine as the gatekeeper of the greatest Sith Holocron ever to exist, having all of its knowledge, plus quite a bit more, the Ultimate Visual Guide, and quite a bit more, too



Good lord, the fallacies here are incredible:
Yes, he is the best of all time, so stop twisting this every time. How many times do I have to correct it now? We know:
A. Luke becomes a pure avatar of the living Force in that fight (Know what happened to Jacen at the end of TUF? He becomes one with the Force and therefore, unbeatable. Palpatine as well becomes one with the Dark Side)
B. the Skywalkers, as said right there in the comic, become 'luminous beings' in the force together and the three of them unleash essentially the entire Lightside to...shield Palpatine from the darkness. IE: cut him off temporarily from the Dark Side. Surely you're not expecting him to somehow resist two Skywalkers tapping into their full potential and wielding the power of the entire light against them now?
C. Great, the Vader argument, wonderful. Yes, he screwed up. He admits it. He is focusing his intentions fully on torturing Luke and vader takes advantage. And somehow, when it comes to physical strength, how many people in Galactis history are really on Vader's level? He was absolutely driven to save his son and considering being cooked to the point where his skeleton was visible with Force Lightning wasn't enough to stop him? Palpatine received a sudden, completely unexpected attack from someone he thought under his heel completely (with good reason), retaliated immediately and received a temporary defeat. And Vader still died in the end. Yes, he screwed up. Does this really have much to do with power in the end? Most Sith tend to make bad errors in the end.

Quit the persecution complex. You've been argued against civilly in the past, so stop acting like it's some vicious witchhunt. You haven't been insulted, demeaned or persecuted by Escape or I. We're answering your arguments in a civil and thorough manner, and I have a feeling that's more than a lot of people got during the 'Agree the Ancient Sith are the best or we'll flame you relentlessly' era.
So, really, please don't try to turn it into that, because a few people are just as guilty of the same thing some time ago.


Again, quit the persecution complex. You've been answered civilly here, and elsewhere. I have NOT flamed you once and the demeaning, insulting attitude is fully uncalled for

I'm sick of this quote being thrown around. I read that damn book and it didn't say ANYWHERE that those jedi were anything more than average. They were obviously just 3 random jedi who happened to be in the vacinity at the time.

Unsupported. There is nothing to suggest that Sidious would be able to do this to Sion in any way. Firstly, he doesn't even know who Kraya is. Secondly, he was not in her esteem which is the only reason that Sion listened to the Exile in the first place.


This technique isn't as unbeatable as some would think. Other Jedi seem to cope when facing Jacen ( Katarn & Luke) and Sidious didn't use it well against Luke in DE or against Yoda in ROTS so there is no support for your claim that it would work on the Duo


Except that it puts Sion over Sids in terms of Kill-count. And he survived a war and probably killed hundreds. And before you bang on about power diference let me just say that there is nothing to indicate that the ROTS era was any better than the KOTOR one. By Oclams Razer they are most likely on par.


'Great liars can make the world stand on its head and dance for them', Unfortunately that doesn't help Sids here.


They survived th Mando wars which is good. They were trained by Traya ( who counld fight exeptionally well with one hand) and they had close duels with the Far from average Exile. Not quite on Sisious' level but capable and both could take him.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
I'm sick of this quote being thrown around. I read that damn book and it didn't say ANYWHERE that those jedi were anything more than average. They were obviously just 3 random jedi who happened to be in the vacinity at the time. Well how about this quote from shaak ti...

The masters are the best of the order, what could you possibly do? Page 323.

More than average EH? Despite the fact that lucas has stated PT jedi are superior than Kotor jedi.
Originally posted by Darth Exodus

Unsupported. There is nothing to suggest that Sidious would be able to do this to Sion in any way.
Well being able to manipulate the entire galaxy and republic would be far more difficult than manipulating one single sith lord. I guess you never heard of don moch where in this case, sidious is a goldmine when it comes to psychological warfare.
Originally posted by Darth Exodus

Firstly, he doesn't even know who Kraya is.
You DO know according to the essential guide to the force that sidious was WELL aware of the events of malachor V and the sith triumviate? So he DOES know who sion and kreia is.
Originally posted by Darth Exodus

Secondly, he was not in her esteem which is the only reason that Sion listened to the Exile in the first place. Ok.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus

This technique isn't as unbeatable as some would think.
You saying so does not make it so seeing that you have absolutely no credibility in these forums.
Originally posted by Darth Exodus

Other Jedi seem to cope when facing Jacen ( Katarn & Luke)


According to your pal wookiepedia, jacen never removed himself from the force during the fight


Solo was a formidable opponent, even for Katarn's skills, and the Jedi Master had to protect the weaker members of the team as he dueled the former Jedi Knight and now young Sith Lord. As Caedus claimed, Katarn was unaware of what he was fighting against, and the Sith's brutality during the duel saw the Jedi Master hard-pressed to win the advantage, though the mission itself was only a diversion to place the tracking device upon Solo. Forced to defend Hu'lya from Solo's attacks, Katarn sent his saber spinning at Jacen, only to have it deflected and return to his hand. When his opponent gestured towards him, Kyle prepared himself for a contest of telekinesis, though he was caught off-guard by Solo's tactic; the Sith Lord grasped a passing GAG speeder with the Force and sent it cannonading into the Jedi Master's back. Katarn was catapulted forward and impaled on Solo's blade. The Sith Lord pulled his lightsaber free and turned to finish off the rest of the team, unaware that the tracking device had been attached to his cloak by Dorvald, and that Katarn was still alive. Although a grief-consumed Mithric was slain by Solo, Valin and Dorvald dragged Katarn to safety while Hu'lya made good her escape. Unfortunately for the severely wounded Master, Solo's blade had punctured his lung, and Kyle's lowered immune system was unable to prevent the incursion of an infectious plague that the Commenori, opposed to the Galactic Alliance, had unleashed on Coruscant. However, against all odds, Kyle Katarn survived both the serious wound and the diseases he picked up in the undercity sewers. On his return to Endor he was healed by Cilghal, with yet another successful mission to his name. Katarn later regained enough of his strength to accompany the Jedi on their mission to the Corellian system, where they rescued the abducted Hapan Chume'da Allana from Solo's clutches


Shortly after the Battle of Kashyyyk, Luke said that Jacen now commanded at least master-level abilities, but will never rise up to the rank of Jedi Master. Not only that, but when asked how to solve the problem that had become Caedus, Luke, not being able to come up with an answer, left it up to Kyp Durron on to decide how to deal with Caedus. The plan resulted in Caedus fighting a Jedi strike team consisting of, Master Kyle Katarn, Knights Valin Horn, Kolir Hu'lya, Thann Mithric and an apprentice whom Caedus had sponsored, Seha Dorvald. During the ensuing fight, Caedus severely wounded Katarn by impaling him in the chest, which brought a rash attack from Mithric who received a deflected blaster bolt in his chest from Caedus and followed it up by decapitating the Falleen Jedi.
Originally posted by Darth Exodus

and Sidious didn't use it well against Luke in DE or against Yoda in ROTS so there is no support for your claim that it would work on the Duo If you actually had the capabilities to even think or use logic of a 12 year old, you would ask yourself if using the fallanasi technique during any of those duels would become necessary or not which it clearly isn't as none of them tried to break one anothers bond.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus

Except that it puts Sion over Sids in terms of Kill-count.
Anything to prove that? Palpatine has killed far more people than sion ever had, uh like instantly killing 100 storm troopers with one blast of lightning while diverting it from killing his own men?

LOL talk about bitching about "unsupported" claims.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus

And he survived a war and probably killed hundreds.
Lol hypocrite, this is an unsupported claim that you are making. Your bitching at other people giving "unsupported" claims yet you yourself are doing so.

Your beyond stupid.
Originally posted by Darth Exodus

And before you bang on about power diference let me just say that there is nothing to indicate that the ROTS era was any better than the KOTOR one. By Oclams Razer they are most likely on par. Uh yes, first and foremost lucas says so, he refers the PT jedi as "prime of the jedi : Golden age of the jedi" where the jedi are at their PEAK. Watch the ROTS commentary, read the interviews on star wars insider and rolling stones.

He clearly states that the PT jedi are superior to any order before them.

So yes, PT jedi > your precious Kotor jedi.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus

'Great liars can make the world stand on its head and dance for them', Unfortunately that doesn't help Sids here.
Proof sidious > your sion.


The Rebels were turning out to be more troublesome than many had expected. The Emperor had known it would be thus, of course; the resistance had not been a surprise to him. The Emperor was completely in concert with the dark side of the Force. He was the most powerful Sith to have ever existed.
-- Death Star, page 76.

"...Yoda could defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history."
-- The New Essential Chronology, page 84

Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time. As his strength grows, his plans begin to shape the course of the galaxy, and his snares await the unsuspecting.
-- The Complete Visual Dictionary, page 72.

Page 109 from the Dark Empire sourcebook:

"Palpatine has risen from the dead. The most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived had returned."

Empire's End, one of the Sith spirits: "He gave up everything to the Dark Side long ago. He has become the greatest who ever lived. He is the strongest who ever lived....I say we give what he wishes."

Star Wars Insider, Kevin J. Anderson, upon asked if he ever intended his Sith to be stronger than the OT sith: No. Exar Kun, Naga Sadow and the others are on a firmly lower tier than Emperor Palpatine.

On TFN.net, official response to the strongest Sith: Palpatine at his peak.

Essential Chronology: the most powerful Sith who had ever lived, Emperor Palpatine had returned from the grave."

had succeeded where all others failed in taming the Dark Side. He would journey across the universe, spreading the shadow of his rule, blotting out the stars themselves, and taking his Dark Rule to other helpless galaxies.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus

They survived th Mando wars which is good. They were trained by Traya ( who counld fight exeptionally well with one hand) and they had close duels with the Far from average Exile. Not quite on Sisious' level but capable and both could take him. Wow surviving the war means your a wonderful duelist, why don't you actually PROVE their combat prowess with the lightsaber?

The burden of proof falls on you.

A. where's the quote saying Palpatine knows the looping technique ?

B. the duo takes this no way Palps can take on them botha nd win

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
I'm sick of this quote being thrown around. I read that damn book and it didn't say ANYWHERE that those jedi were anything more than average. They were obviously just 3 random jedi who happened to be in the vacinity at the time.

3 council members, actually. And ROTs novelization, thank you

Irrelevant. Sion can still be disabled


Considering there is no need to hide oneself in the force alone when the opponent can already see them...unlike Nihilus all those people you mentioned have physical eyes

Name one person Sion actually killed in combat. He tortured a captive Vash to death. Palpatine's got several Jedi kills to his name

So he can time travel? There weren't even a hundred Jedi left at the end of the Jedi Civil War. Sorry, 'barely a hundred'

By George Lucas, they are not


Here's a better quote: "Great fighters can chop the other guy up."
And it does help here


Proof of their exploits in it
Prove this

Prove these duels were close. Nihilus was three on one. Sion's was a conversation.

A couple of things:

1) Quey'tek isn't "looping out of the Force," as you put it. It simply makes detection by a Force-user less likely. It's a stealth technique, not a defenseive one, as it requires concentration and can be broken or breached by distractions or skilled individuals, respectively. Case in point, Ventress toyed with Obi-Wan using the ability in CD, and Dooku was located by him and Skywalker in LoE.

I'm not saying the ability you described doesn't exist, but it's not Quey'tek.

2) The power that you are describing - if I'm interpreting it correctly - would be a double-edged sword. If Sidious is willingly cutting himself off from the Force to escape Nihilus' fatal drain, then he also loses access to his arsenal of powers, at which point he becomes defenseless and gets skewered instantly.

Unless you're argument's as flimsy as it looks from here - which I doubt it is - fill me in on the details before you continue.

3) Nihilus' lack of eyes is so far from a valid argument it's not even funny. While he sees primarily on a cosmic scale, the fact that he holds "conversations" with Visas and later duels the Exile is clear evidence that he can sense the individual as well, especially one as powerful as Palpatine.

4) Much of the pro-Sidious argument hinges on the newer Sith somehow being able to immediately discern that Nihilus is some Force-sucking monster, hop out of the Force to evade an attack that he magically knows is coming, and manage without a connection to the Force to slaughter both of the KotOR Sith without breaking a sweat. Can't say that works for me.

Chances are that Palpatine isn't walking out of this one alive, and thank you Escape for coming to that conclusion yourself.

~ Upon looking at the thread again to make sure that last statement was accurate, I saw that this was RotS Sidious - I thought it was the DE incarnation. In that case, he doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell.

Nihilus' duel was close, according to Visas he was winning for half the fight.

and that was three-on-one with him being doubly weakened

Is there conclusive evidence to corroborate your claim, Faunus, that the full effectiveness of Quey'tek is reliant on "concentration"? Because I do not personally recall any such evidence; consider that Darth Sidious was able to shield himself from the full scrutiny of the Jedi Council for well over a decade, despite occupying the same planet as the Jedi Temple, and despite his considerable political pressures as Supreme Chancellor. Are you suggesting that, throughout all of this, he was concentrating on the technique the whole time? Though Palpatine has demonstrated a relatively peerless genius and sense of willpower, I doubt it's that strong. Furthermore, your citations of the failed attempts to utilize the technique by Asajj Ventress and Count Dooku don't necessarily apply; they certainly aren't comparable to Darth Sidious in terms of strength in the Force, and both of them lack his experience with Quey'tek, so who's to say that he's bound by the same limitations?



As I have told my detractors before, I know full well when my "Sith of choice" is beaten or outmatched, though I'd personally like to see their response in a similar situation; I'd gamble that the objectivity wouldn't be contagious.



Hell must have cooled down a bit since the last time I paid a visit. Palpatine will certainly disable Lord Sion -- that KotOR Sith, in particular, has not demonstrated no skills comparable to the Galactic Emperor's, despite Janus's assertions to the contrary.

Originally posted by Gideon
Is there conclusive evidence to corroborate your claim, Faunus, that the full effectiveness of Quey'tek is reliant on "concentration
Because I do not personally recall any such evidence; consider that Darth Sidious was able to shield himself from the full scrutiny of the Jedi Council for well over a decade, despite occupying the same planet as the Jedi Temple, and despite his considerable political pressures as Supreme Chancellor. Are you suggesting that, throughout all of this, he was concentrating on the technique the whole time?My point, as I thought was evident, was that I wasn't sure if Palpatine was actually using Quey'tek. Since I'm altogether unfamilar with most post-RotJ depictions of Palpatine's power I have no idea whatsoever as to when, where, and in what context this "looping" technique was used. Quey'tek in no way involves disconnecting oneself from the Force, at least not in Cestus Deception and Labyrinth of Evil, the only two sources I'm familiar with that cite the ability by name.

See above.

Whatever.

None of this answers the questions I posed as to the nature of Palpatine's technique. If he is temporarily cutting himself off from the Force to escape Nihilus, how can he still access his powers? I'm assuming you guys have an explanation, becayse if you don't then you'd be arguing that a powerless Palpatine could evade Nihilus' drain while surviving Sion's onslaught.

Originally posted by FaunusMy point, as I thought was evident, was that I wasn't sure if Palpatine was actually using Quey'tek. Since I'm altogether unfamilar with most post-RotJ depictions of Palpatine's power I have no idea whatsoever as to when, where, and in what context this "looping" technique was used. Quey'tek in no way involves disconnecting oneself from the Force, at least not in Cestus Deception and Labyrinth of Evil, the only two sources I'm familiar with that cite the ability by name.

This is not Return of the Jedi-era Palpatine. This is Revenge of the Sith-era Palpatine. Palpatine did use Quey'tek during the prequel trilogy as a measure to cloak his powers from the Jedi Order. Furthermore, I am not trying to contend that it involves "disconnecting one's self" from the Force, but it does erase one's Force signature. The others are right: Nihilus would not be able to sense Palpatine through the Force and -- since it doesn't disconnect him -- he would be free to attack Nihilus. I'm not saying that it will come down to that, but it leaves the possibility open.



I did. And it's been settled, but Ventress and Dooku's strength in the Force does not rival the Emperor's, he's not necessarily bound by the same limitations.



The expected response.



I'm not arguing that Palpatine can "loop out of the Force", because I'm not aware as to whether or not he can do that. I'd question the others as to the validity of their claims (unless it's mentioned in his RPG stats). But, using Quey'tek, Palpatine is easily capable of disabling Sion. It'd be hard to argue that that moment's distraction wouldn't give Nihilus the opportunity to kill the Emperor.

Originally posted by 123KID
and that was three-on-one with him being doubly weakened And he just got done masturbating and his arm was tired.

lies and slander
everyone knows powerful Sith have the dark side technique Force Orgasm where they can will themselves to climax through their extreme hatred and rage at never getting laid

Originally posted by 123KID
lies and slander
everyone knows powerful Sith ahve the dark side technique Force Orgasm where they can will themselves to climax through their extreme hatred and rage at never getting laid

I think Sion's penis has long since rotted off. Nihilus probably has a big bazooka penis which he raped Visas with.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx


I think Sion's penis has long since rotted off. Nihilus probably has a big bazooka penis which he raped Visas with.

RAPE IS NOT FUNNY NOR CUTE, GET YOU TAIL OFF MY BOARD NOW!!!!

Originally posted by Man of Christ
RAPE IS NOT FUNNY NOR CUTE, GET YOU TAIL OFF MY BOARD NOW!!!! I don't see the word Admin under your name Jack.

that's because he's in disguise
he's gonna ban us all unless we stop right now























































































he raped Visas up da azz

Originally posted by 123KID
that's because he's in disguise
he's gonna ban us all unless we stop right now























































































he raped Visas up da azz THE SCOUNDREL!!!

Originally posted by Faunus
A couple of things:

1) Quey'tek isn't "looping out of the Force," as you put it. It simply makes detection by a Force-user less likely. It's a stealth technique, not a defenseive one, as it requires concentration and can be broken or breached by distractions or skilled individuals, respectively. Case in point, Ventress toyed with Obi-Wan using the ability in CD, and Dooku was located by him and Skywalker in LoE.
I am fully aware of that. However, Quey'Tek makes oneself invisible in the Force, and to someone who requires the force to find and devour one's opponent, like Nihilus it is a disadvantage. And when do we know of the level of sheer concentration that must be used?

We know, however, thanks to Master Tholme, one can disconnect oneself, but still fight effectively. Especially given that Nihilus cannot sense or detect him

Yes, he can sense them. However, one he cannot sense through the Force? We know both Visas and the Exile had connections at those points and he held a 'bond' with Visas.

You forget, as a student of Nihilus's own Holocron, Palpatine is likely going to recognize the real thing.

Naturally. Didn't deny this, if it's a contest of force powers. Sabers is another story

If it's DE, this wouldn't even be a fight

Originally posted by 123KID
A. where's the quote saying Palpatine knows the looping technique ? Never read the black fleet crisis huh? Palpatine met one of the fallanasi and he was on a quest to master every aspect of the force, OH WAIT DESB stated he knew all techniques so i guess you fail

thought it was every Dark Side technique numbnuts

Originally posted by 123KID
thought it was every Dark Side technique numbnuts

enjoy getting banned homo..

you hate gay people ?
nice of you to show your prejudice as well as ignorance

I don't care who's gonna win in this fight, but the whole "Darth Nihilus doesn't have eyes" is getting real old.

Originally posted by Gideon
This is not Return of the Jedi-era Palpatine. This is Revenge of the Sith-era Palpatine. Palpatine did use Quey'tek during the prequel trilogy as a measure to cloak his powers from the Jedi Order. Furthermore, I am not trying to contend that it involves "disconnecting one's self" from the Force, but it does erase one's Force signature. The others are right: Nihilus would not be able to sense Palpatine through the Force

Quite untrue.

He hid his force sensitivity from the Jedi, he did not mask his actual presence in the force. There's a difference. The first is dictated by his midi-chlorian count, the second is dictated by the force energies that run through the matter throughout his body.

No. He hid his force sensitivity, which in essence masked his presence in the force. Try again Noobaris.....

No, they don't correlate. They're both products of two extremely different dynamics, as explained.

Hiding his sensitivity in turn hides his presence in the force. What don't you get? Furthermore if you want to argue out of your ass ( which you're so adept at doing), Palpatine knows the Looping technique, which doesn't take away his force abilities..

There is no such thing as a "Looping technique," -- it's made up gibberish -- and for the rest of your post: please read through what I've been saying carefully this time. A being's Force sensitivity does not have any effect on the Force energies that run through his body. They aren't derived from the same source, and have no real relationship. Understand that.

Well, perhaps there is a way for Darth Sidious to emerge victorious in this debacle after all. My gratitude to Nikkolas for inadvertantly giving me this quote:



...So, assuming that Darth Sidious makes use of Quey'tek, he can shield his considerable sensitivity to the Force from Darth Nihilus and Darth Sion; leaving only his "life energy" as Nebaris corrected me on. But that's clearly not enough for Nihilus to detect. So, assuming Sidious goes for Nihilus first, he can slay the Sith Lord and then turn to Sion.

Sidious might very well win.

Originally posted by ThoraxeRMG
I don't care who's gonna win in this fight, but the whole "Darth Nihilus doesn't have eyes" is getting real old.

i don't see any eyes
http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/6955/nihilusll4.jpg

Either way, his physical body is apparently dead, so they wouldn't function properly anyway.

Originally posted by 666.1
Either way, his physical body is apparently dead, so they wouldn't function properly anyway.

Was Darth Krayt's commentary on Darth Nihilus's lifeforce being tied to his armor ever explained?

Originally posted by Gideon
Was Darth Krayt's commentary on Darth Nihilus's lifeforce being tied to his armor ever explained?

No but I thought Nihiulus's body/robes and his mask disappear.

there is not only Krayt's quote, there is his description of Nihilus mask:

"You have taken this trophy from the remains of Darth Nihilus - it is the last surviving piece of the beast who died and was reborn in the shattered world of Malachor V."

Visas herself says he is "He is a wound in the Force, more presence than flesh" and Kreia says "he is already dead"

Originally posted by 666.1
There is no such thing as a "Looping technique," -- it's made up gibberish -- and for the rest of your post: please read through what I've been saying carefully this time. A being's Force sensitivity does not have any effect on the Force energies that run through his body. They aren't derived from the same source, and have no real relationship. Understand that.

We call it the looping technique because that's what it is. You hide your presence in the force while maintaining the force powers... Try again.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
We call it the looping technique because that's what it is. You hide your presence in the force while maintaining the force powers... Try again. If that's the case, then you've basically lied about the ability since it was first mentioned. You don't give names and abstract qualities to a technique and pass it off as proof when there are others on the board who aren't familar with the material, i.e. me. I'd previously - and foolishly, apparently - believed that what you, LS, and whoever else mentioned the power were describing it accurately, and had sources that showed its use. Now, Escape tells me he believes you've all been referring to Sidious' Quey-tek usage during the prequel era. Remind to request elaboration and citing of sources from now on.

Escape and LS, I'll get back to you guys soon.

Erm...I was unaware of referring to anything else in this thread

The "looping technique"? Yeah. Uninformed me thought it was its own technique since no one ever bothered to just call it by its name.

Originally posted by Faunus
If that's the case, then you've basically lied about the ability since it was first mentioned. You don't give names and abstract qualities to a technique and pass it off as proof when there are others on the board who aren't familar with the material, i.e. me. I'd previously - and foolishly, apparently - believed that what you, LS, and whoever else mentioned the power were describing it accurately, and had sources that showed its use. Now, Escape tells me he believes you've all been referring to Sidious' Quey-tek usage during the prequel era. Remind to request elaboration and citing of sources from now on.

Escape and LS, I'll get back to you guys soon.

Except I'm not referring to that technique. That is not what Luke, Jacen, or Post ROTJ Palpatine know. I'm not very familiar with the Quey-Tek technique, but the fallanassi technique.

Originally posted by Faunus
The "looping technique"? Yeah. Uninformed me thought it was its own technique since no one ever bothered to just call it by its name.
I seriously don't think I mentioned the looping in this whatsoever. It's certainly not the Sith ability of Query'Tek which is all I've mentioned

Wow everybody is coming back...

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I seriously don't think I mentioned the looping in this whatsoever. It's certainly not the Sith ability of Query'Tek which is all I've mentioned
Page 5, in response to Janus;


Edit: I'm not attacking you or anything; just pointing it out.

Originally posted by Faunus
Page 5, in response to Janus;


Edit: I'm not attacking you or anything; just pointing it out.

I'd forgotten that. Well, in the context of the debate, I'll happily retract it.
Palpatine learning the secrets of the White Current didn't happen until some time later, rise of the Empire level. If I meant it in the context of Palpatine knowing it in the context of this fight, my apologies.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I'd forgotten that. Well, in the context of the debate, I'll happily retract it.
Palpatine learning the secrets of the White Current didn't happen until some time later, rise of the Empire level. If I meant it in the context of Palpatine knowing it in the context of this fight, my apologies. Clarification is good. Thanks.

Originally posted by 123KID
thought it was every Dark Side technique numbnuts Actually the book stated BOTH light and dark. So you fail.

because i made a mistake ?
i'm sure you've never been wrong about anything right ?
maybe be a bit more cordial in your debating asswipe

Originally posted by Gideon
Well, perhaps there is a way for Darth Sidious to emerge victorious in this debacle after all. My gratitude to Nikkolas for inadvertantly giving me this quote:



...So, assuming that Darth Sidious makes use of Quey'tek, he can shield his considerable sensitivity to the Force from Darth Nihilus and Darth Sion; leaving only his "life energy" as Nebaris corrected me on. But that's clearly not enough for Nihilus to detect. So, assuming Sidious goes for Nihilus first, he can slay the Sith Lord and then turn to Sion.

Sidious might very well win.

Originally posted by 123KID
because i made a mistake ? You ALWAYS makes mistakes and you will almost never admit your wrong, hence i feel you should get attacked.
Originally posted by 123KID

I'm sure you've never been wrong about anything right ?
I have, and i know when to shut up when I'm proven wrong, unlike you. "Nihilus lifted a fleet!!!!!!!" When its never proven.
Originally posted by 123KID

maybe be a bit more cordial in your debating asswipe what ever,I'm not your slave/dog/maid/Butler/********** so what right do you have to "advice" me when you have so little credibility in these forums let alone make yourself look like a flaming baffoon?

um i don't know who the **** you are and i just really started posting in this forum
we never had a single debate in any other thread except for the last day or so
so i'd appreciate it if you keep your assumptions out of this



i just started posting here you halfwit
i really think you need to pull the stick out of your ass and put it in your mouth (figuratively speaking of course because you're typing) before you say any other half-insane bullshit to attack me

Originally posted by 123KID
um i don't know who the **** you are and i just really started posting in this forum
we never had a single debate in any other thread except for the last day or so
so i'd appreciate it if you keep your assumptions out of this WHEN have you actually know when to concede when your time-and-again always proven wrong?

Originally posted by 123KID


i just started posting here you halfwit
i really think you need to pull the stick out of your ass and put it in your mouth (figuratively speaking of course because you're typing) before you say any other half-insane bullshit to attack me Touche, and you need remove nihilus dick from your mouth and start using some common sense ESPECIALLY when you get proven wrong.

you haven't proven anything i've said about Nihilus wrong yet so when you do i'll concede
till then you're wrong

123kid, you lost the minute you decide to post.

lol my post said the duo won...and it seems most of the intelligent debaters here agree with me
doesn't surprise me you aren't one of them

If you had the ability to read, the more intelligent people like lightsnake and gideon(the best debator and most intelligent) said the duo would lose.

wow
i bet Gideon appreciates you outright lying about what he said


LS also said the duo would win but changed his opinion

Nobody cares.. If Palpatine can perform the fallanassi technique, then Sion and Nihilus dont stand a chance. A few shreds of force lightning and it's over..

Originally posted by Gideon
...So, assuming that Darth Sidious makes use of Quey'tek, he can shield his considerable sensitivity to the Force from Darth Nihilus and Darth Sion; leaving only his "life energy" as Nebaris corrected me on. But that's clearly not enough for Nihilus to detect. So, assuming Sidious goes for Nihilus first, he can slay the Sith Lord and then turn to Sion.

Sidious might very well win.

Sorry123KID, Gideon says otherwise.

no he said the duo could win
stop making yourself even more of an asshat than you already are by lying about what others say

Originally posted by 123KID
no he said the duo could win
stop making yourself even more of an asshat than you already are by lying about what others say Yes he did, but he also said that sidious can win.

...So, assuming that Darth Sidious makes use of Quey'tek, he can shield his considerable sensitivity to the Force from Darth Nihilus and Darth Sion; leaving only his "life energy" as Nebaris corrected me on. But that's clearly not enough for Nihilus to detect. So, assuming Sidious goes for Nihilus first, he can slay the Sith Lord and then turn to Sion.

Sidious might very well win.

^ I DARE you to call me a liar now, hell this has been posted a few posts above mine, it occurs to me you lack the ability to comprehend basic sentences let alone read.

http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/5026/45421100yi0.png

There^ i even posted a screen shot for the poor hound begging for proof.

so Gideon said they could lose
just like i said
gotcha

and the duo win

Ivalice, who gives a flying f*ck what another member thinks? If you have an opinion that you want to express, put in your own argument or shut up.

Excuse the double-post.

Originally posted by Gideon
This is not Return of the Jedi-era Palpatine. This is Revenge of the Sith-era Palpatine. Palpatine did use Quey'tek during the prequel trilogy as a measure to cloak his powers from the Jedi Order. Furthermore, I am not trying to contend that it involves "disconnecting one's self" from the Force, but it does erase one's Force signature.There it is. This has been qualified by LS as well, so I'll let it drop.

This is true.

My comment was a compliment, and that's it. I'd expected either silent acceptance or a "thanks," so you can understand why I wouldn't bother going any further.

So, what? Sion's just going to stand there and die?

I can understand why you'd be opposed to the idea of Sion being able to contend with Sidious on his own, but the statement that he would just be utterly and instantly demolished is an unsupported one. I agree; Sion would lose, and it would be equally fallacious of me to claim that any relatively obscure Sith would be able to stand up to Palpatine. But it's not plausible to assume that it'd be over in a flash, especially when it is taken into account what the Sith Lord had going him.

Originally posted by Gideon
Well, perhaps there is a way for Darth Sidious to emerge victorious in this debacle after all. My gratitude to Nikkolas for inadvertantly giving me this quote:

...So, assuming that Darth Sidious makes use of Quey'tek, he can shield his considerable sensitivity to the Force from Darth Nihilus and Darth Sion; leaving only his "life energy" as Nebaris corrected me on. But that's clearly not enough for Nihilus to detect. So, assuming Sidious goes for Nihilus first, he can slay the Sith Lord and then turn to Sion.

Sidious might very well win.The key word there being "assuming." And considering that this is what Palpatine's survival hinges on, it's a relatively weak argument. I could just as easily say that Nihilus would figure out a way to indirectly detect his opponent's presence simply following the Force energy released through techniques like lightning, which would likely come into play here.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Nobody cares.. If Palpatine can perform the fallanassi technique, then Sion and Nihilus dont stand a chance. A few shreds of force lightning and it's over.."A few shreds of lightning"? Is that a joke? Sidious is dealing with two very capable Sith Lords here, not toddlers.

i wondered something
can't Palpatien just cut Sion's connection to the Force ? his immortality hinges on his Force and will power and if he loses the Force he'll probably die instantly i figure
just wondering

of course Palpatine would have to perform this while Nihilus is actively trying to kill him so it might be abit impossible in this situation

I don't see too much happening in that small room. This isn't going to be like the Jedi who just stood there. Nihilus and Sion will likely rush him.

If they try that, their advantage isn't so good anymore. Where exactly are Sion and Nihilus evidenced to be saber combatants on par with Palpatine, Yoda or Mace?