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Heard about this one on the news a few minutes ago (NIU is about 2 hours from where I live)...

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-niu-gunman_webfeb15,0,1760508.story

(only news article I've found so far)



As it just happened there's not a huge amount about it yet, but last I heard on the TV they believe there might be 3 people dead, 3 injured. That's not confirmed, though.

Kinda scary to think, though, if things had gone the way I'd intended, I'd actually be there right now with this all going on.

Wow, my friend goes there.

Is it another failed medical experiment (i think you call him a youth) on the loose ?

Originally posted by Gannon
Wow, my friend goes there.

A few people I know go there as well...

Originally posted by GCG
Is it another failed medical experiment (i think you call him a youth) on the loose ?

I'm guessing so, though I haven't seen anything that's said so or not. Though the building the shooting happened at is pretty much in the center of the main part of the campus (I'm pretty familiar with NIU).

Plus there's reports that the guy had a shotgun and a pistol.

Edit: Another article about it - there's a fair few of them now, though most say different things.

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080214/NEWS07/80214062/1050/SPORTS02

My friend goes to Northeastern Illinois University, that's not the same one, right?

Originally posted by BackFire
My friend goes to Northeastern Illinois University, that's not the same one, right?

Nope, they're not. Northeastern's on the north side of Chicago, Northern is in DeKalb which is about 2-3 hours west of the city.

Damn, Thats crazy.

My school shooting tour shirt is WAY outta date now, you americans are too trigger happy, the shirt makers can't keep up

Okay, so as of right now, there's 6 people dead, including the gunman (who was a former grad student), and 16 injured. The shooter killed himself.

(the story in the first link is updated)

So basically, this is another tiring and old "America has too many guns!" thread?

Er, more we have too many crazy people than anything...

Heard about this on the news. Another nutjob, but thankfully there won't be a trial

With all the school shootings, is anything being done to prevent them? Metal detectors or something?

Originally posted by Tempe Brennan
With all the school shootings, is anything being done to prevent them? Metal detectors or something? Yeah metal detectors, thatll stop people from going insane

There appear to be a lot of unhappy young folk in the USA. Is it because they messed around at school got crap grades and are now frustrated that no one warned them

Its because they're country is shite.

Originally posted by makmeh
Its because they're country is shite.

I think you're right. Next time you're over here, someone may snipe you right off the plane. Suicide may be your best option to avoid certain death.

i can see this descending into an all out flame war before the day is out

Yeah. I have yet to figure out what other reason there could possibly be for posting news articles on this forum.


EDIT: I just thought of 1 reason.


(referring to central figure in news article)

Originally posted by RedAlertv2
Yeah metal detectors, thatll stop people from going insane

i think he meant 'mental' detectors

for a laugh?...i mean...is there anyone who doesn't think the spaz getting thrown out the wheelchair is anything but utterly hilarious?

http://www.niu.edu/index.shtml
5 dead, 4 under the age of 21...
2 that lived five minutes from me and Lana...
Alot of people I know were supposed to go there, thnakfully most of my friends that went there are not there anymore, but I can't help and think that if things were different what would have happened...

Originally posted by jaden101
for a laugh?...i mean...is there anyone who doesn't think the spaz getting thrown out the wheelchair is anything but utterly hilarious?
Well, PVS is about the only person who could possibly insert a news article the right way.

what is it with suburban kids and shooting people at college just cause they're depressed.

It was a 27-year old kid as per police reports who stopped taking his medication and became erratic over the past 2 weeks and bought the guns 6 days ago.

You never see this in California. 131

We kill each other in the streets.

I wonder what it is that causes people to do these manic things, it isn´t exactly normal behavior is it, or is it?

We may consider ourselves an advanced race, with our technology and all, but is the "animal" still within us.

Maybe when the Aliens, other beings, "Gods of old" or whatever, bio engineered us to become more intelligent and like them, probably by mixing thier genes/dna with ours or something like that. They left a door open some where, where the animal lunatic urge still comes through in certian situations. Causing us, now advanced beings to kill others on mass.

Originally posted by Bicnarok
I wonder what it is that causes people to do these manic things, it isn´t exactly normal behavior is it, or is it?

We may consider ourselves an advanced race, with our technology and all, but is the "animal" still within us.

Maybe when the Aliens, other beings, "Gods of old" or whatever, bio engineered us to become more intelligent and like them, probably by mixing thier genes/dna with ours or something like that. They left a door open some where, where the animal lunatic urge still comes through in certian situations. Causing us, now advanced beings to kill others on mass.

So you're saying that our violent reations are the symptoms of alien and human dna.

Originally posted by Bicnarok
I wonder what it is that causes people to do these manic things, it isn´t exactly normal behavior is it, or is it?

We may consider ourselves an advanced race, with our technology and all, but is the "animal" still within us.

Maybe when the Aliens, other beings, "Gods of old" or whatever, bio engineered us to become more intelligent and like them, probably by mixing thier genes/dna with ours or something like that. They left a door open some where, where the animal lunatic urge still comes through in certian situations. Causing us, now advanced beings to kill others on mass.

Who's the guy you're getting this from again? Because it sounds like he "borrowed" a little bit from H.P. Lovecraft.

Originally posted by Bicnarok
I wonder what it is that causes people to do these manic things, it isn´t exactly normal behavior is it, or is it?

We may consider ourselves an advanced race, with our technology and all, but is the "animal" still within us.

Maybe when the Aliens, other beings, "Gods of old" or whatever, bio engineered us to become more intelligent and like them, probably by mixing thier genes/dna with ours or something like that. They left a door open some where, where the animal lunatic urge still comes through in certian situations. Causing us, now advanced beings to kill others on mass.

Gods of old? Bio-engineering? Mixing DNA? Door to animal lunatic urge?

It's called evolution. we only live on survival instincts when we have to.

Originally posted by jaden101
for a laugh?...i mean...is there anyone who doesn't think the spaz getting thrown out the wheelchair is anything but utterly hilarious?

Some people have work to do on their senses of humor.

Originally posted by PandoraMomo
http://www.niu.edu/index.shtml
5 dead, 4 under the age of 21...
2 that lived five minutes from me and Lana...
Alot of people I know were supposed to go there, thnakfully most of my friends that went there are not there anymore, but I can't help and think that if things were different what would have happened...

You know my friend Christy, right? She goes to UIUC, but her dad teaches at NIU. She was freaking out yesterday over this. And a bunch of people I know from ACen staff go there as well. Thankfully everyone was away from there and okay.

And no, this isn't normal behaviour, but as was mentioned, the guy wasn't exactly normal, mentally. He was supposed to be taking meds and went off them. So he wasn't exactly in a 'normaly' state of mind.

Back in my day. This shiite didn't really happen. All we did was use our hands and legs and maybe a baseball bat or knife. Nowadays all you see is some nutjob just shoot up schools because he has problems or lost his girlfriend or some other frakkin excuse. I'm glad this guy is dead. I have no idea why he went off his meds, but that isn't an excuse either to what he did.

I freaked out when this happend, my half brother just graduated from there about a year and a half ago, and his half brother goes there currently, and no one could get ahold of him for hours after the shooting. Today when the gunman's name was released, my brother found out that it was the kid who lived in the dorm room next to him his sophmore year, i saw the kid when i went and visited him. i just can't belive how much stuff like this is going on lately.

2 hours away or less from me. Pretty bad.


But seriously, you gotta assume for every million or so non-physcopathic killers, theres always one out there. Always been that way, same as any murders.

Originally posted by JediSamuraiMRB
Back in my day. This shiite didn't really happen. All we did was use our hands and legs and maybe a baseball bat or knife. Nowadays all you see is some nutjob just shoot up schools because he has problems or lost his girlfriend or some other frakkin excuse. I'm glad this guy is dead. I have no idea why he went off his meds, but that isn't an excuse either to what he did.

Uh....yeah. Because batting or knifing someone for those reasons isn't insane.

The guy certainly shouldn't have gone off his medication, no matter the reason, but I also wouldn't wish death upon him or be glad for his death.

Originally posted by FistOfThe North
what is it with suburban kids and shooting people at college just cause they're depressed.

What is it with 'urban' kids who shoot each other because they stepped on their shoes or insulted their mamas.

Or wore the wrong color.

Originally posted by Quark_666
Some people have work to do on their senses of humor.

evidently

i wish someone would shoot up my college.... i really hate it....

People deserve to be shot.

Originally posted by KizzMaster
People deserve to be shot. Sounds like a member of the Wesboro Baptist Church.

So, I guess the media needs to spend another 3 months talking about it, and parading a string of shocked and weeping students across our news screens, and we'll all sit around asking ourselves how this could happen or how this isn't the "kind of thing" that happens in this town: All the while, the next looney toon is sitting out there watching the media coverage and slowly getting a hard-on over the idea that the same thing could happen to them.

These things don't need to be swept under the rug, but they aren't the time-stopping events that need to consume the attention of every person standing around the water cooler.

A school has a shooting, and it's on the news. How dare they publicize something like this

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
A school has a shooting, and it's on the news. How dare they publicize something like this

Originally posted by Devil King
These things don't need to be swept under the rug, but they aren't the time-stopping events that need to consume the attention of every person standing around the water cooler.

And there's a difference between reporting a story, and publicizing a story.

School shootings are a big deal.


And this is becoming an alarming "trend". It's like one school shooting after another. It seems to me your complaint is that too much attention is being given to these kinds of situations. Why do you think that way ?

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
School shootings are a big deal.


And this is becoming an alarming "trend". It's like one school shooting after another. It seems to me your complaint is that too much attention is being given to these kinds of situations. Why do you think that way ?

Are you mentally challenged? He just outlined why;

Originally posted by Devil King
So, I guess the media needs to spend another 3 months talking about it, and parading a string of shocked and weeping students across our news screens, and we'll all sit around asking ourselves how this could happen or how this isn't the "kind of thing" that happens in this town: All the while, the next looney toon is sitting out there watching the media coverage and slowly getting a hard-on over the idea that the same thing could happen to them.

I think he's speaking some sense. That line of thinking led to the shooting in the mall in Nebraska.

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
School shootings are a big deal.


And this is becoming an alarming "trend". It's like one school shooting after another. It seems to me your complaint is that too much attention is being given to these kinds of situations. Why do you think that way ?


Originally posted by Devil King
And there's a difference between reporting a story, and publicizing a story.

Originally posted by Kram3r
Are you mentally challenged? He just outlined why;


Suck my Dick



Originally posted by Kram3r
I think he's speaking some sense. That line of thinking led to the shooting in the mall in Nebraska.



Although crime influences crime, putting less attention on this issue is not going to reduce future occurances. If a person being bullied at school is already at that point, what they see on the News is not going to make much difference.

I think what they need to do, is schools seriously need to strengthen thier bullying and harassment policies. They aren't being taken seriously enough, and school bullying has been an almost acceptable aspect of youth/school life since as far back as you can go.

If anything, I feel the problem is that very few take bullying seriously. Many parents, teachers, faculties, etc. feel that bullying is just a natural part of one's life, and that it's almost a "necessary" part of thier social development.

I thnk these explosions are evidense of the opposite.

Devil King, I don't see your issue.


School bullying, harassment, hazing, etc. happens at a muchhh larger rate than we can imagine. Problem is most students keep it to themselves, out of fear of embarrassment, which is why awareness is low.

Read my above post for the rest of my point on that....


I think spotlight on this issue is necessary. Who cares if the media is trying to "sell" this story. I think in this case, bad news is better than No News.

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
putting less attention on this issue is not going to reduce future occurances.

But how will paying MORE attention to it influence people who were

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
being bullied at school

------------

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
the News is not going to make much difference.

Except that the media are the idealized outlet through which so many of these kids see themselves getting their very public revenge for said bullying. If you'd spent 4 years (or however long a person went to college, after) being the guy no one pays any attention to, wouldn't the connection to revenge be obvious? We see the faces of these guys plastered across our screens for 3 solid months and we don't understand why these hated guys see the public attention being a motivator for their revenge to actually happen?

you honestly don't think every one of these guys hasn't thought "everyone in the world will realize I was the wrong guy to **** with!"? And we do exactly what they want, public revenge, and thus we provide an incentive for others to do the same?

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
I think what they need to do, is schools seriously need to strengthen thier bullying and harassment policies.

impossible.

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
They aren't being taken seriously enough, and school bullying has been an almost acceptable aspect of youth/school life since as far back as you can go.

So, you want to remove human interaction from the high school experience?

Originally posted by Devil King
But how will paying MORE attention to it influence people who were


Not every single person who has been bullied is going to think "You know what ? I'm gonna teach everyone a lesson by shooting thier asses up in school tomorrow"

Technically, everyone has been bullied. Atleast once or twice. The thing is some get bullied for extended periods of time and to higher intensities, while others are far more fortunate.

People who are being bullied to that extant need to SPEAK UP

Ignoring the situation will make things worse, on both a general and individual basis.

I disagree with what you are saying in general. It's the same logic as arguing that horror movies cause people to become serial killers. Come on....a person who hasn't already had the mentality to harm others, won't suddenly be like "You know what...I should try killing everyone". It takes years of pent up anguish to get to that level.



Originally posted by Devil King
Except that the media are the idealized outlet through which so many of these kids see themselves getting their very public revenge for said bullying. If you'd spent 4 years (or however long a person went to college, after) being the guy no one pays any attention to, wouldn't the connection to revenge be obvious? We see the faces of these guys plastered across our screens for 3 solid months and we don't understand why these hated guys see the public attention being a motivator for their revenge to actually happen?



You act as if the News is all kids watch....and you know, most kids don't watch the news....so I think your worry is exxagerated. There are other sources of information, advice, media, etc. - other outlets that kids and teenagers have for these kinds of situations.

Okay..I'll give you one benefit of the doubt...perhaps a few psychopaths will be influenced...but they have to have the tendency in them already to do such a thing, in order to go through with it. The media hype may be a possible "trigger" for one or two psychopaths, but it won't create the psychopath.


And no, the media doesn't have to focus on the guy who did the shooting. But I don't see that happening. I don't see any school shooters being glamourized or publicized.

It's the issue of the shooting itself that takes dominion. And it should. Attention needs to be brought to the issue of school bullying. It's an all too common problem, with very little attention placed to it.


Do you have any idea how many kids drop out of school, simply because of the level of bullying ? How bullying affects suicide rates, drug abuse, etc.

Come on man....open your eyes...this is an issue that needs attention, and ignoring it will do FAR MORE HARM than good.





Originally posted by Devil King
you honestly don't think every one of these guys hasn't thought "everyone in the world will realize I was the wrong guy to **** with!"? And we do exactly what they want, public revenge, and thus we provide an incentive for others to do the same?


Everyone thinks that, but how many of those people actually go through with something like that ? We've had what.....4 or 5 major cases in the country of school shootings....out of how many millions of kids being bullied ?

I don't understand what your solution would be. Are you saying we shouldn't focus on something like school bullying ? Do nothing about it... ? Kids just gotta put up with bullshit, and let it be ?



Originally posted by Devil King
impossible.


How is that impossible ? There are many measures one can take when being bullied. A child being bullied does NOT have to put up with it. Parents can sue the school and the parents of the other child, if thier child is bullied. Problem is, most parents don't take it to that level. They just try to "toughen" thier kid up, or distract them with other outlets...

Teachers and Principles are in charge of the schools. There are diverse policies, against discrimination based on race, sex, etc. There should be no reason why non-specific discriminate bullying placed on the same level of importance.


Originally posted by Devil King
So, you want to remove human interaction from the high school experience?



Are you stupid ?


You don't get my point. In New York, in many schools, bullying and harassment policies have improved. Less forms of harassment are tolerated, and consequences are more severe.

But the schools and districts can only do so much. The rest is up to the counselors, parents, and children themselves. There are already programs which teach children what to do when being excessively bullied, and they are taught not to put up with it. However, these programs aren't put on priority, so less children and parents recieve less information on thier options.

If more schools put focus on anti-bullying/harassment policies, things will change for the better.

But this apathetic approach you are taking. the whole "kids will be kids" mentality is what is generating the harm further.

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
Not every single person who has been bullied is going to think "You know what ? I'm gonna teach everyone a lesson by shooting thier asses up in school tomorrow"

Nor did i say there was. as you point out later, everyone has felt bullied at some point in their lives.

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
Technically, everyone has been bullied. Atleast once or twice. The thing is some get bullied for extended periods of time and to higher intensities, while others are far more fortunate.

so we should sell a high school mentality to the entire nation?

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny People who are being bullied to that extant need to SPEAK UP

But not with automatic machine guns. Believing they should act out is an implication that the high school mind set should persist after high school.

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
Ignoring the situation will make things worse, on both a general and individual basis.

No one has supported ignoring it.

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
I disagree with what you are saying in general. It's the same logic as arguing that horror movies cause people to become serial killers. Come on....a person who hasn't already had the mentality to harm others, won't suddenly be like "You know what...I should try killing everyone". It takes years of pent up anguish to get to that level.

i realize you disagree with me. It is not the same logic as supporting the idea that horror movies incite school violence. Your assumption supports the idea that we should all live in far of the consequential actions of people who operate from an inconsequential place, who live around us. This is what the news feeds on. what your example dismisses is the notion that people can't realize that a movie or a CD or a video game isn't reality, and marketed as such, while ignoring the fact that news is sold to us as reality...as the real life events of everyone in our neighbourhoods.

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
You act as if the News is all kids watch....and you know, most kids don't watch the news....so I think your worry is exxagerated. There are other sources of information, advice, media, etc. - other outlets that kids and teenagers have for these kinds of situations.

None of which are presented to us as reality, as is the news.

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
Okay..I'll give you one benefit of the doubt...perhaps a few psychopaths will be influenced...but they have to have the tendency in them already to do such a thing, in order to go through with it. The media hype may be a possible "trigger" for one or two psychopaths, but it won't create the psychopath.

you've watched too many showings of Elephant. How many times did Hitler shoot up a school?


Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
And no, the media doesn't have to focus on the guy who did the shooting. But I don't see that happening. I don't see any school shooters being glamourized or publicized.

Doesn't HAVE to, is my point. But every possible substantiating fact is paraded across our news screens and it's given as much time as Anna Nichol killing herself on prescription drugs. How about the reporting where we're told this is "the dealiest school shooting in history". and the one that comes out with the highest numbers are used to illustrate the tragedy level. Illinois wasn't AS bad as Virginia Tech, but the students of Virginia Tech want the students at Illinois to know they "understand".

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
It's the issue of the shooting itself that takes dominion. And it should. Attention needs to be brought to the issue of school bullying. It's an all too common problem, with very little attention placed to it.

And that's why I wonder if you really have an understanding of human nature. There's bullying at work, and amongst friends or lovers and on and on and on.


Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
Do you have any idea how many kids drop out of school, simply because of the level of bullying ? How bullying affects suicide rates, drug abuse, etc.

Or pregnancy or apathy or disinterest or no money at home. the list gos on and on, far beyond bullying.

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
Everyone thinks that, but how many of those people actually go through with something like that ? We've had what.....4 or 5 major cases in the country of school shootings....out of how many millions of kids being bullied ?

4 or 5? Should we also remove education of history from teh education system?

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
I don't understand what your solution would be. Are you saying we shouldn't focus on something like school bullying ? Do nothing about it... ? Kids just gotta put up with bullshit, and let it be ?

Yeah, kids gotta put up with bullshit, just like everyone else who makes it out of childhood. When was the last time you went through a bullshit-free day?


Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
How is that impossible ? There are many measures one can take when being bullied. A child being bullied does NOT have to put up with it. Parents can sue the school and the parents of the other child, if thier child is bullied. Problem is, most parents don't take it to that level. They just try to "toughen" thier kid up, or distract them with other outlets...

so get your rocks on and kick their asses, not the asses of those you see as teh crowd standing around giving you a second thought when the jock gives you a wedgie. Again, a high school mentality we can all look back on and relate to, but which doesn't motivate most of us for the rest of our lives.

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
Teachers and Principles are in charge of the schools. There are diverse policies, against discrimination based on race, sex, etc. There should be no reason why non-specific discriminate bullying placed on the same level of importance.

teachers and principles may be in charge of teaching and administering, but they have little influece in teh locker room or in the parking lot. Teachers speak up all teh time, but it isn't those cases which drive these kids to go to their parents house and take their sub automatic machine guns and mow down their entire graduating class.






Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
Are you stupid ?

Obviously, you think so. That reflects well on your desire to debate me.


Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
You don't get my point. In New York, in many schools, bullying and harassment policies have improved. Less forms of harassment are tolerated, and consequences are more severe.

too bad these things aren't happening in NYC. In nyc, they happen in the streets, after lunch is over. (and that doesn't dismiss the possiblility that they can happen)

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
But the schools and districts can only do so much.

Exactly my point. But you've spent the last 6 paragraphs telling us they can do everything to prevent it.

get a room, you two.

I stay firm in my belief that it's the gun policy in the U.S that's the problem. Without a gun you can't shoot up a school full of people, I'm sure people's replies are going to be that they'd find some other way, though to be honest, where else in the world has so many school killing sprees? I can't think of one other country.

Originally posted by chillmeistergen
I stay firm in my belief that it's the gun policy in the U.S that's the problem. Without a gun you can't shoot up a school full of people, I'm sure people's replies are going to be that they'd find some other way, though to be honest, where else in the world has so many school killing sprees? I can't think of one other country.

Agreed.

Originally posted by chillmeistergen
I stay firm in my belief that it's the gun policy in the U.S that's the problem. Without a gun you can't shoot up a school full of people, I'm sure people's replies are going to be that they'd find some other way, though to be honest, where else in the world has so many school killing sprees? I can't think of one other country.

There are over 300 million people int he U.S. if your messed up enough to murder your classmates or students who go to a school that you already graduated from, then obtaining a gun illegally shouldn't be a problem. I have no idea how this problem could be fixed, but having stricter rules on gun to me seems obsolete. Also its in our constitution's (I believe the second amendment) states the people have the right to form a militia. (There is already arguments about if this applies to owning personal guns).

Originally posted by PINBALL
There are over 300 million people int he U.S. if your messed up enough to murder your classmates or students who go to a school that you already graduated from, then obtaining a gun illegally shouldn't be a problem. I have no idea how this problem could be fixed, but having stricter rules on gun to me seems obsolete. Also its in our constitution's (I believe the second amendment) states the people have the right to form a militia. (There is already arguments about if this applies to owning personal guns).

It would be a lot harder to get hold of a gun if there weren't shops everywhere selling them, wouldn't it? The people who usually commit these shootings are loners, with no real friendships, I find it hard to believe they'd have the contacts to acquire an illegal weapon.
I come from a country where guns are illegal, there are illegal weapons about the place, but to my knowledge there has never been any school shootings, at least not by a student.

I also think that the whole argument of the constitution is ridiculous, it's been changed before now, hasn't it?

Originally posted by chillmeistergen
It would be a lot harder to get hold of a gun if there weren't shops everywhere selling them, wouldn't it? The people who usually commit these shootings are loners, with no real friendships, I find it hard to believe they'd have the contacts to acquire an illegal weapon.
I come from a country where guns are illegal, there are illegal weapons about the place, but to my knowledge there has never been any school shootings, at least not by a student.

I also think that the whole argument of the constitution is ridiculous, it's been changed before now, hasn't it?

He meant the right to bare arms I think. The supreme court will not specifically define it so right now, that means you can own a gun.

If your country does not have school shootings...then maybe would should try it. Of course, that would greatly increase illegal arms dealing..............................................................................I DON"T KNOW WHAT THE BEST SOLUTION IS!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by dadudemon
He meant the right to bare arms I think. The supreme court will not specifically define it so right now, that means you can own a gun.

If your country does not have school shootings...then maybe would should try it. Of course, that would greatly increase illegal arms dealing..............................................................................I DON"T KNOW WHAT THE BEST SOLUTION IS!!!!!!!!

I think organized crime would be what increased illegal arms dealing, not school shootings. Here we have the occasional stabbing, it usually leads to one person being injured or dying, never dozens of people dying and more being injured.

Originally posted by chillmeistergen
I think organized crime would be what increased illegal arms dealing, not school shootings. Here we have the occasional stabbing, it usually leads to one person being injured or dying, never dozens of people dying and more being injured.

Deaths as a function of violent crimes is your measurement of success, right?

What about violent crimes period? Did they decrease in the UK or increase in the UK when guns were illegalized?

Edit- I could look that up.....but you could probably find it faster.

Decreased.

Originally posted by chillmeistergen
Decreased.

Do you have a source for that?

I would love to support the illegalization of guns IF I had concrete evidence that it not only prevented deaths...but also lead to the decrease in violent crimes over all.

I learnt about it in sociology, I'll have a look for an online source and post it later.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Do you have a source for that?

I would love to support the illegalization of guns IF I had concrete evidence that it not only prevented deaths...but also lead to the decrease in violent crimes over all.

It makes sense though, you might be mad but if you can just buy a gun it makes it easier to do crazy stuff. Its like the fact that you can just buy a gun gives you an option that was not there initially.

I can't find any statistics which reach as far back as 1996 to present, I have however found recent statistics highlighting a recent decrease in gun crime. http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/crime-victims/reducing-crime/gun-crime/

Also take not of this That's certainly a contrast to the U.S percentage.

Originally posted by chillmeistergen
I stay firm in my belief that it's the gun policy in the U.S that's the problem. Without a gun you can't shoot up a school full of people, I'm sure people's replies are going to be that they'd find some other way, though to be honest, where else in the world has so many school killing sprees? I can't think of one other country.

It's not the policy. It's the people.

Policies/laws are objective themselves and are called good or bad depending on how well the people under said jurisdiction handle that law.

Jim Crow, for example, was an unwritten doctrine that would be objectively considered immoral but it was "good" to the white majority of the U.S. in their mindset at the time (only meant to be used in context; not a race rant).

People who want guns will get their hands on guns on way or another, similar to bootleg cable. It's illegal but oh well?

I'm not sure how rare school shootings really are though. In Memphis, TN the schools have a kid caught with a gun every other week and a shooting here and there (normally there is not more than one target because they have one person in mind, not just a random spree).

Certain things are publicized, some are not. Stop letting the media guide how you understand these things.

Originally posted by chillmeistergen
I can't find any statistics which reach as far back as 1996 to present, I have however found recent statistics highlighting a recent decrease in gun crime. http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/crime-victims/reducing-crime/gun-crime/

Also take not of this That's certainly a contrast to the U.S percentage.

Thanks for the info.

I now have a little more time to do some research.

It doesn't look good, though.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article568214.ece

"A UNITED Nations report has labelled Scotland the most violent country in the developed world, with people three times more likely to be assaulted than in America."


This one doesn't help either.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2006/may/28/ukcrime.immigrationpolicy

"In 1980, the first full year of the last Tory government, police in England and Wales recorded 4,390 'woundings or other acts endangering life'. In 1997...the figure was 12,531. In 2004-5 it reached 19,425, nearly four times the level 20 years earlier. Convictions rose, but they did not keep pace. In 1980, 1,277 people were found guilty of life-threatening attacks, 29 per cent of the recorded total. In 1997, 1,864 were convicted - 14.8 per cent of perpetrators. In 2004-5 the number convicted was just 1,897, despite the increase in crimes - a rate of only 9.7 per cent."

Also, I read about a violent crime reduction act in 2006...something done to help curb the crime problems faced in the UK. The information you posted is almost misleading. (Not that you did that on purpose.)


Your country does not help the position that guns should be made illegal.


However, I can see that maybe your country's crime is so bad even without guns because population density is much greater in the UK than in the US...however, I am no criminologist.

I need more data.

Edit-For people like me who are on the fence about the subject still...a few studies about other countries without guns would help sway my potential vote.

What has to be remembered though, is that violent crime is inclusive of an awful lot of different kinds of crime. There's GBH, ABH, domestic violence, manslaughter, murder etc. By no means do these always involve guns. I think you have to look at firearm statistics in particular to fully gauge a contrast between our two countries.

Originally posted by chillmeistergen
What has to be remembered though, is that violent crime is inclusive of an awful lot of different kinds of crime. There's GBH, ABH, domestic violence, manslaughter, murder etc. By no means do these always involve guns. I think you have to look at firearm statistics in particular to fully gauge a contrast between our two countries.

I disagree. Violent crimes have to be looked at, per capita, before and after the illegalization of firearms to truly gage the law's effectiveness.

I have heard the argument that guns actually prevent violent crimes by a small margin and that is why we should keep guns legalized.

The UK MAY prove that statement...however that is an immature conclusion on my part.

Like I said, I need more data.

Isn't AC really into this? I am sure he could provide nice swaying evidence for me.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I disagree. Violent crimes have to be looked at, per capita, before and after the illegalization of firearms to truly gage the law's effectiveness.

I have heard the argument that guns actually prevent violent crimes by a small margin and that is why we should keep guns legalized.

They UK MAY prove that statement...however that is an immature conclusion on my part.

Like I said, I need more data.

Isn't AC really into this? I am sure he could provide nice swaying evidence for me.

There's a lot more influences and causes that change over time though, not just whether people have guns or not.

Originally posted by chillmeistergen
There's a lot more influences and causes that change over time though, not just whether people have guns or not.

I agree whole heartedly with that type of logic, but that will not be what makes a major change in America on gun control.

If that type of logic were employed and adhered to, Marijuana would be legal in the US and we would have quite a few LESS* "in the system".

*People AND money.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Thanks for the info.

I now have a little more time to do some research.

It doesn't look good, though.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article568214.ece

"A UNITED Nations report has labelled Scotland the most violent country in the developed world, with people three times more likely to be assaulted than in America."


This one doesn't help either.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2006/may/28/ukcrime.immigrationpolicy

"In 1980, the first full year of the last Tory government, police in England and Wales recorded 4,390 'woundings or other acts endangering life'. In 1997...the figure was 12,531. In 2004-5 it reached 19,425, nearly four times the level 20 years earlier. Convictions rose, but they did not keep pace. In 1980, 1,277 people were found guilty of life-threatening attacks, 29 per cent of the recorded total. In 1997, 1,864 were convicted - 14.8 per cent of perpetrators. In 2004-5 the number convicted was just 1,897, despite the increase in crimes - a rate of only 9.7 per cent."

Also, I read about a violent crime reduction act in 2006...something done to help curb the crime problems faced in the UK. The information you posted is almost misleading. (Not that you did that on purpose.)


Your country does not help the position that guns should be made illegal.


However, I can see that maybe your country's crime is so bad even without guns because population density is much greater in the UK than in the US...however, I am no criminologist.

I need more data.

Edit-For people like me who are on the fence about the subject still...a few studies about other countries without guns would help sway my potential vote.

Yeah mate Glasgow has or had a highier murder rate than New York, but its mainly knife crime. I mean the thing is as far as im concerned getting rid of guns dont stop people commiting crime but it may make crime worse because its much easier to kill people.....or rob a bank etc.

Originally posted by Lana
Heard about this one on the news a few minutes ago (NIU is about 2 hours from where I live)...

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-niu-gunman_webfeb15,0,1760508.story

(only news article I've found so far)



As it just happened there's not a huge amount about it yet, but last I heard on the TV they believe there might be 3 people dead, 3 injured. That's not confirmed, though.

Kinda scary to think, though, if things had gone the way I'd intended, I'd actually be there right now with this all going on. Is this like a sport in America?

Originally posted by dadudemon
He meant the right to bare arms I think. The supreme court will not specifically define it so right now, that means you can own a gun.

If your country does not have school shootings...then maybe would should try it. Of course, that would greatly increase illegal arms dealing..............................................................................I DON"T KNOW WHAT THE BEST SOLUTION IS!!!!!!!!

Correct,

How often do school shootings really happen I think its just that its kids getting shot. What about all the people who are killed by guns daily. I think people are so outraged by it because its kids being killed. I can think of four school shootings, Columbine, VT, Northern Illinois, I believe one in Minnesota. I'm sure theres more but these are the ones that were all over the media for weeks. I am not saying that outlawing guns wouldn't work I just don't think it's a possible solution. I mean really do you have any idea how many rednecks live in the country....

Wait, so non-gun related violent crimes count towards gun-related violence?

you could probably narrow that down...to Glasgow...although in all my visits there i've never even seen a single violent incident...bar one...which was started by me

I absolutely love Glasgow.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Yeah mate Glasgow has or had a highier murder rate than New York, but its mainly knife crime. I mean the thing is as far as im concerned getting rid of guns dont stop people commiting crime but it may make crime worse because its much easier to kill people.....or rob a bank etc.

"knife crime"? Holy shit, you guys don't mess around even without guns. Remind me to hold off on the smart ass comments when I visit the UK.

Originally posted by PINBALL
Correct,

How often do school shootings really happen I think its just that its kids getting shot. What about all the people who are killed by guns daily. I think people are so outraged by it because its kids being killed. I can think of four school shootings, Columbine, VT, Northern Illinois, I believe one in Minnesota. I'm sure theres more but these are the ones that were all over the media for weeks. I am not saying that outlawing guns wouldn't work I just don't think it's a possible solution. I mean really do you have any idea how many rednecks live in the country....



Originally posted by chithappens


I'm not sure how rare school shootings really are though. In Memphis, TN the schools have a kid caught with a gun every other week and a shooting here and there (normally there is not more than one target because they have one person in mind, not just a random spree).

Certain things are publicized, some are not. Stop letting the media guide how you understand these things.

That guy was oogly.