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Who wins or is it a draw?

TOAA owned the beyonder when he drew him in the likeness of Tom jones

As I've understand it, it isn't so that The-One-Above-All isn't the actual writer, but a written representator of him.
And in a sense Beyonder's purpose was to illustrate the power the writer had over the story.

I'd go with a draw, for now.

that was true at the beginning, then it was sort of retconned to be a lesser being.

TOAA owned the beyonder when he retconned him into shit.

Thats why its Beyonder at the time of Jim Shooter so nobody could dare to recton him.

The One Above All is above "ALL"

Originally posted by SpiderGauntlet
TOAA owned the beyonder when he retconned him into shit.

Beyonder was the living representation of Jim Shooter's unfathomable power, he kills TOAA.

Originally posted by Terryc250
The One Above All is above "ALL"
So is this the case for the Celestial as well?

Originally posted by SpiderGauntlet
TOAA owned the beyonder when he retconned him into shit. Beyonder was shit well before the retcon, buddy. uhuh

Originally posted by Astner
So is this the case for the Celestial as well?
No the celestial isnt supreme, TOAA is.

Originally posted by Galan007
Beyonder was shit well before the retcon, buddy. uhuh

I mean in terms of power uhuh

But obviously not one of Marvel's best.

Originally posted by Terryc250
No the celestial isnt supreme, TOAA is.
So the name doesn't really mean anything ...

As for TOAA being supreme doesn't indicate that he was supreme, but Beyonder was.

Originally posted by SpiderGauntlet
I mean in terms of power uhuh

But obviously not one of Marvel's best.
Yeah, since the Secret Wars was only one of the best selling comic books series ever.

The Writer (Jim Shooter) created him, the later writer (Steve Englehart) retconned him.

imo TOAA ftw.

Originally posted by Utrigita

The Writer (Jim Shooter) created him,
the later writer (Steve Englehart) retconned him.
Actually Ut,
it was Tom DeFalco (Editor-in chief after Shooter) that planned Beyonder's retcon,
and it was only DeFalco that had the editorial power to do it.

Writer's can't retcon anything without chief Editorial confirmation.

Whatever. Either one is a TOAA feat.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Whatever. Either one is a TOAA feat.
I disagree.

Toaa/god is a character in comics that has a set representative value,
classic Beyonder was detached from what Toaa/god represents,
but more importantly, from Toaa/god created/ruled over.

Remember, per Classic canon facts,
the Beyonder was Not created by Toaa/god,
the Beyonder simply always was (a god unto himself)
in his own separate Multiverse,
completely detached/separated from all of Marvel at the time (the Prime Multiverse)

The Beyonder was in the Beyond Realm
what Toaa/god is withIN the current and/or Post retcon Marvel Omniverse,
that being ... absolute Supreme being, author of all that is in his respective Reality,
as Toaa/god are/is, author of all that is in their respective Reality.

........................................................................................

So again,
this is why only Editorial staff (the Editor-in Chief in fact) was the only one able to retcon,
a Writer can Not overwrite what an Editor-in chief cements as fact.

Originally posted by Galan007
Beyonder was shit well before the retcon, buddy. uhuh pissed

Beyonder got his powers stolen from Doom =\ I can't see TOAA's powers ever being stolen from Doom, doesnt TOAA represent the entire marvel company?

Originally posted by SpiderGauntlet
TOAA owned the beyonder when he retconned him into shit.

Yeah, pretty much.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Actually Ut,
it was Tom DeFalco (Editor-in chief after Shooter) that planned Beyonder's retcon,
and it was only DeFalco that had the editorial power to do it.

Writer's can't retcon anything without chief Editorial confirmation.

So The real TOAA isn't the writer it's the editor it's contradict everything we know from on panel. Also I haven't found anything that leads me to suspect that is was Tom DeFalco being the Editor that handled the retcon, since Steve Englehart have said that even before that point of time he would have retconned Beyonder not so massively as he was retconned, but still retcon him, however the editor at that point of time (never gave a name also doesn't they have like 12 editors???) Wanted Beyonder to be retconned far more severely.

Originally posted by Terryc250

Beyonder got his powers stolen from Doom
With Beyonder created stipulations.

First,
that wasn't normal Doom, that Doom was created by Beyonder,
taken from a point in the Timestream that didn't exist.

Second,
Beyonder curbstomped,
Galactus' World Ship empowered non-existent Futuristic Doom.
Then ... Beyonder let his guard down, as he was studying Doom,
then Doom made his move, (that could only work at an arm's distance)
Doom used Galactus' tech built into his chestplate to absorb much of B's power.

Third,
Beyonder retaind his power, and that never happened again.

Also, in the retcon,
we actually learn that Beyonder allowed Doom to acquire his power,
because of an "un-conscious desire to satisfy other's needs"

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/1200/57281653qs7.th.jpg



Which is exactly why he started the entire Secret Wars 1 saga to begin with:

http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/9541/87444459ar0.th.jpg

To satisfy the desires of the winner.

Originally posted by Terryc250

I can't see TOAA's powers ever being stolen from Doom
Toaa/god gave his power/status withIN the Marvel Omniverse to Thanos,
and yet ...
Thanos (was unable to fix the flaw by reparations, he needed to re-create Marvel.

Thanos even literally admits to this fact: (even "god" was unable)

http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/420/14646980cy3.th.jpg

"Reversing the damage became impossible ...

impossible for even he for whom nothing is supposed to be impossible"


What this tells us is that Toaa/god can do anything withIN the Marvel Reality (comics)
even create a rock they can't lift.

(so I'd say yea, I can see Doom stealing Toaa's power, if Toaa wishes it)
Originally posted by Terryc250

doesnt TOAA represent the entire marvel company?
Nah.

Toaa/god depicted in FF#511,
is like what Morrison made himself in the Animal Man series,
the perfect depiction of what a Comic Book "god" ... "Supreme Being" should be,
that is ... the avatar/s of the artistS/writerS themselves illustrated withIN a story.

Not on some goof tip, like in the Impossible Man and Mxy cases,
but again like in FF#511 and Morrison's appearance in Animal Man,
these should be ...
the quintessential representations of what "god/Supreme being" is, in comics.

Oh, yes, IMO!

Stan Lee = TOAA

Stan Lee to a pencil dude:
"Draw me the little piece of shit!"
The pencil dude draw it and gives the picture to Stan Lee.
Stan Lee eats it.

10/10 to Stan The Man.

Originally posted by Utrigita

So The real TOAA isn't the writer it's the editor
it's contradict everything we know from on panel.
I never said the "real" Toaa is the editor,
so I don't know where you got that from.

I've maintained across any debate, that Toaa/god is/are the WriterS/ArtistS of Marvel.
So On Panel depictions still stand as 100% accurate and canon.

The Editor in Chief, is the top position in Marvel, concerning publication.

In Marvel (as in all book co) nothing get's published,
without the Edtior in Chief approving, simple as that.

Originally posted by Utrigita

Also I haven't found anything that leads me to suspect
that is was Tom DeFalco being the Editor that handled the retcon
Perhaps the fact that Tom DeFalco was the Editor in Chief (1987-1994)

Beyonder was retconned in 1988 ... makes sense.

Originally posted by Utrigita

since Steve Englehart have said that even before that point of time he would have retconned Beyonder not so massively as he was retconned, but still retcon him, however the editor at that point of time (never gave a name also doesn't they have like 12 editors???) Wanted Beyonder to be retconned far more severely.
Steve Englehart was only the FF Author/writer at the time,
that's why he ended up writing for the issue Beyonder was retconned in,
it just happened to be an FF issue.

Steve Englehart began writing for the FF in #304,
and ended his FF writing days 21 issues later in #325,
that's it,
Steve never wrote for the FF again.

Steve just happened to be the designated author in that run of 21 issues,
DeFalco wanted Beyonder retconned withIN that FF issue (319)
and so it fell on Steve's hands to make an interesting story.

That's the way ALL comics are created,
either the Writer himself creates a story out of his/her imagination,
or it's pitched to him/her as a base for an idea,
either way, in the end,
the Writer is the one that produces the dialogue though.

Brother, when will your hierarchy be back up?

Oh and just for notes, the writer isn't a fictional being. The-One-Above-All is.
The avatar of the writer is a fictional being though.

Originally posted by Astner

Brother, when will your hierarchy be back up?
Soon, I still haven't completed some business that comes first,
then I can dedicate ample time again to kmc.

Originally posted by Astner

Oh and just for notes, the writer isn't a fictional being. The-One-Above-All is.
Absolutely, I agree.

Did someone actually think the writer was a fictonal being?
So many strange things we see.
Originally posted by Astner

The avatar of the writer is a fictional being though.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I never said the "real" Toaa is the editor,
so I don't know where you got that from.

I've maintained across any debate, that Toaa/god is/are the WriterS/ArtistS of Marvel.
So On Panel depictions still stand as 100% accurate and canon.

The Editor in Chief, is the top position in Marvel, concerning publication.

In Marvel (as in all book co) nothing get's published,
without the Edtior in Chief approving, simple as that.

I got that from your saying that only a editor have the power to retcon a character not the writer then obviously the Editor is above the Writer, and does he read all material?

Perhaps the fact that Tom DeFalco was the Editor in Chief (1987-1994)

Beyonder was retconned in 1988 ... makes sense.

I will ask again how many editors did they have??? from what I know about 12 so to say that among those you can specificly point out Tom DeFalco seems a bit odd imho.

Yes makes perfect sense.

Steve Englehart was only the FF Author/writer at the time,
that's why he ended up writing for the issue Beyonder was retconned in,
it just happened to be an FF issue.

Yes and he was still the Writer (TOAA according to you) in that given Comic, and again he stated that he wanted to tie the Beyonder to the Beyonders the editor at that time (again he never gave a name) wanted Beyonder removed from Marvel Cosmology however Steve decided in what way Beyonder should be removed.

Steve Englehart began writing for the FF in #304,
and ended his FF writing days 21 issues later in #325,
that's it,
Steve never wrote for the FF again.

So he wrote 21 issues and???

Steve just happened to be the designated author in that run of 21 issues,
DeFalco wanted Beyonder retconned withIN that FF issue (319)
and so it fell on Steve's hands to make an interesting story.

A story he had already planned ahead of DeFalco according to himself.

That's the way ALL comics are created,
either the Writer himself creates a story out of his/her imagination,
or it's pitched to him/her as a base for an idea,
either way, in the end,
the Writer is the one that produces the dialogue though.

So all Comics are created by The Editor giving a order to the Writer and then it's up to the writer to decide how the story shall progress???.

Originally posted by Utrigita
I got that from your saying that only a editor have the power to retcon a character not the writer then obviously the Editor is above the Writer
I still never said the Editor is the new or the old or the ever was, Toaa.
But yes, the Editor in Chief, is definitely above any writer or artist.

That doesn't matter though,
cause Toaa/god is still a representative of the writers/artists solely,
after all, they are the one's that come up with the stories, and draw them.

Editors ... may take some stuff out, but the general story is the Writer's.

Editor in chief is the head hancho,
he/she approves/disaproves of what's published.
Originally posted by Utrigita

and does he read all material
Concerning character's Retcons?

Of course.
Originally posted by Utrigita

I will ask again how many editors did they have???
from what I know about 12 so to say
that among those
you can specificly point out Tom DeFalco seems a bit odd imho.
Actually, there's always only been ONE Edtior-in Chief at a time in Marvel.

And I'm sure in any company that deals with publications of the sorts.
I mean, that's why the "In Chief" term is added at the end of "Editor."

I see, I think you're confusing "editors" with "Editor-in Chief."
Originally posted by Utrigita
Yes and he was still the Writer (TOAA according to you) in that given Comic,
and again
he stated that he wanted to tie the Beyonder to the Beyonders the editor at that time (again he never gave a name)
wanted Beyonder removed from Marvel Cosmology
however Steve decided in what way Beyonder should be removed.
You're getting your info from Wikipedia I see.

The "name" he never gives from your Wikipedia source,
names that "name" in that same Wikipedia page,
under Beyonder's Power & Abilities:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beyonder

"After his creator, Jim Shooter left Marvel,
writer-editor Tom DeFalco, displeased with Shooter's tenure at Marvel,
re-tooled the Beyonder and altered his origin."

............................................................................................................

Steve was told what to do, and he obeyed.
Yea, Steve came up with the story, based on DeFalco's idea.


Ok good friend, let's move forward.

Originally posted by Utrigita
So he wrote 21 issues and???
And that's the ONLY reason he was given the task of writing Beyonder's retcon,
cause Beyonder's retcon fell upon a Fantastic Four issue, particularly #319,
ONE of the 21 issues that Steve worked on for Fantastic Four,
happened to be #319.

Again, Steve's career as a Fantastic Four writer began in issue #304,
and ENDED in issue #325 ... Beyonder was retconned in FF #319.

Had Byrne or Starlin, or Marz,
or whatever other "writer" been the official author of the FF at the time,
it'd been one of them writing the retcon.

Originally posted by Utrigita
A story he had already planned ahead of DeFalco according to himself. As you wish.
Originally posted by Utrigita

So all Comics are created by The Editor
giving a order to the Writer
and then it's up to the writer to decide how the story shall progress???.
How on earth did you come to that conclusion from my post?

Here it is again, I highlighted what you must've overlooked:
Originally posted by Mr Master

That's the way ALL comics are created,

either the Writer creates a story out of his/her imagination,

or it's pitched to him/her as a base for an idea,

either way, in the end,

the Writer is the one that produces the dialogue though.
Notice what's in bold.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I still never said the Editor is the new or the old or the ever was, Toaa.
But yes, the Editor in Chief, is definitely above any writer or artist.

That doesn't matter though,
cause Toaa/god is still a representative of the writers/artists solely,
after all, they are the one's that come up with the stories, and draw them.

Editors ... may take some stuff out, but the general story is the Writer's.

Editor in chief is the head hancho,
he/she approves/disaproves of what's published.

Then I really doesn't see why we call the writer TOAA since obviously it's not up to them to decide what shall be printed and as you said in your previous post sometimes the Editor just dictates what should happen and then it's up to the writer to decide that.

Concerning character's Retcons?

Of course.

So everytime a Character has been retconned it's the Editor decision, if I created a character and printed for a large company I couldn't decide myself if I wanted the Character turned into something els???

Actually, there's always only been ONE Edtior-in Chief at a time in Marvel.

And I'm sure in any company that deals with publications of the sorts.
I mean, that's why the "In Chief" term is added at the end of "Editor."

I see, I think you're confusing "editors" with "Editor-in Chief."

But that editor in chief is the only one that has the power to retcon a character neither of the other editors do???

You're getting your info from Wikipedia I see.

The "name" he never gives from your Wikipedia source,
names that "name" in that same Wikipedia page,
under Beyonder's Power & Abilities:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beyonder

"After his creator, Jim Shooter left Marvel,
writer-editor Tom DeFalco, displeased with Shooter's tenure at Marvel,
re-tooled the Beyonder and altered his origin."

............................................................................................................

Steve was told what to do, and he obeyed.
Yea, Steve came up with the story, based on DeFalco's idea.


Ok good friend, let's move forward.

Yes lets as soon as I find that damm interview with Steve Engelhart and I must admit I didn't even knew there was such a article on Wiki.

And that's the ONLY reason he was given the task of writing Beyonder's retcon,
cause Beyonder's retcon fell upon a Fantastic Four issue, particularly #319,
ONE of the 21 issues that Steve worked on for Fantastic Four,
happened to be #319.

Again, Steve's career as a Fantastic Four writer began in issue #304,
and ENDED in issue #325 ... Beyonder was retconned in FF #319.

Had Byrne or Starlin, or Marz,
or whatever other "writer" been the official author of the FF at the time,
it'd been one of them writing the retcon.

So you are agreeing that the writer TOAA at that point of time retconned Beyonder???

How on earth did you come to that conclusion from my post?

Here it is again, I highlighted what you must've overlooked:

Notice what's in bold.

I'm overdramatisesing it a bit, the red line is as follows: Jim Shooter was both a writer and a Editor in Chief, Agreed? Jim Shooter integrated Beyonder into virtually everysingle comic posted at that time, agreed? So in this particular case the Editor is the one telling all the writers how to fabricate there comics, there own imputs so to speak is removed. This isn't fictionel more Master it has turned into something very realistic

Found the interview

http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=6024

I misread the first time it wasn't even Tom DeFalco who authorized the retcon, it was another editor namely Ralph Macchio.

and the other one

http://www.fantasticfourheadquarters.com/rightenglehart.html