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DC is forced to kill off one of them forever. No comebacks, returns, clones, doppelgangers, past selves, recons, or reboots allowed.
This is permanent.

Who do they say goodbye to forever?
The Dark Knight or The Man Of Steel!

They kill of Super-Man.

Originally posted by Neo Darkhalen
They kill of Super-Man. Well it is DC comics. Not AC!

Hard to say.

If I recall correctly, Batman's a bigger seller, but Superman's still their icon.

Super-Man is the worst superhero ever to grace the comic lore.

Originally posted by Neo Darkhalen
Super-Man is the worst superhero ever to grace the comic lore.


I like Superman bro. I have a pretty large collection and Superman comics make up at least 20 percent of it.

supermans comics are ok. but cartoon superman is a discrase to the comics. eve movie superman is better than the cartoon one. cartoon one got his ass kicked to many times by abunch of weak guys

They would kill Superman. Well, between the rwo, it's the one I would kill.

Batman should be a Marvel character...

Originally posted by Soljer
Hard to say.

If I recall correctly, Batman's a bigger seller, but Superman's still their icon.

Superman has more mass appeal than Batman.

Originally posted by Grammaton
Superman has more mass appeal than Batman.

Doesn't change the fact that he suck

Originally posted by spidey-dude
supermans comics are ok. but cartoon superman is a discrase to the comics. eve movie superman is better than the cartoon one. cartoon one got his ass kicked to many times by abunch of weak guys

that's exactly the reason i like the cartoon superman he's not all powerful and when he gets into a fight there is some level of threat, isn't that what good drama should have. Comic book supes is so powerful its actually pretty dull. Reason bats is more popular is that we can relate to him and he has far greater odds to overcome. (although I don't like it when they exaggerate the odds he can overcome i.e. batkick takes out spectre

how many people in this thread have actually READ a superman comic regularly and arent just making judgements based on hearsay?

ermm

Originally posted by pr1983
how many people in this thread have actually READ a superman comic regularly and arent just making judgements based on hearsay?

ermm

Entity has, but he doesn't count.

Originally posted by pr1983
how many people in this thread have actually READ a superman comic regularly and arent just making judgements based on hearsay?

ermm ive read many and there ok. but i prefer spidermans comics there more intresting.

Originally posted by pr1983
how many people in this thread have actually READ a superman comic regularly and arent just making judgements based on hearsay?

ermm

I have! I have!

Originally posted by pr1983
how many people in this thread have actually READ a superman comic regularly and arent just making judgements based on hearsay?

ermm I guess I need to just take a freakin picture with me standing in my room with all my Superman comics.

Originally posted by Rorschach
Entity has, but he doesn't count. Believe what you all want but I actually do and I happen to own quite a few of them. I collect them if only out of the respect of him being comic's damn icon.

He actually has allot of potential but DC constantly flushes all of it down the toilet by never really having him actually have any real problems.

God I hate him.
Superman not Rorschach

Changing the title, and moving the Thread.

And for the question, it would more likely be Batman. Unlike Superman, Bruce has either Dick or Tim to take up the mantle.

I can picture a world without Bats, but I cannot picture a world without Superman.

They would kill off Batman. Dc is Superman. It is one of my biggest beefs with the company.

They've made many 'World without Superman' comics.
However, I don't remember any 'World without Batman'.

Batman exist forever... Superman dies. 131

Also, out of the two of them, they'd probably just kill off Wonder Woman instead. It would be like they almost made a big move... but no one cares.

Originally posted by Tron
Changing the title, and moving the Thread.

And for the question, it would more likely be Batman. Unlike Superman, Bruce has either Dick or Tim to take up the mantle. reported

Originally posted by spidey-dude
reported

Report acknowledged, and ignored.

Originally posted by Tron
Report acknowledged, and ignored. Yea I was really wanting this to be a vs thing. I don't see why it needed to be moved!

Someone please break down a compelling Superman story for me. I just don't see how he is EVER in danger.

Originally posted by chithappens
Someone please break down a compelling Superman story for me. I just don't see how he is EVER in danger. THANK YOU!

Being a hero is about sacrifice and risk. Two things Clark knows absolutely nothing about.

But anyway this isn't the place for that discussion. And I'm trying very hard to quit cluttering up good threads with my anti superman rants.
As valid as I may feel they are regardless.

Originally posted by chithappens
Someone please break down a compelling Superman story for me. I just don't see how he is EVER in danger.

He's been killed about three times in Post-Crisis continuity. http://images.killermovies.com/forums/customsmilies/crackers.gif

The entire Gog storyline sucked, but it'd one of those stories you'd read if you just want to see Superman's life in danger. That and probably Ending Battle, plus the whole Ruin storyline.

IMO, some good Superman stories/comics are:

Last Son
Up, Up and Away
The Current Action Comics arc
Whatever Happened to The Man of Tomorrow?
For The Man Who Has Everything
What's So Funny About Truth, Justice and the American Way?
Return of the Krypton Man
Red Glass
Superman For All Seasons
All Star Superman

I love Blind Superman Hate... you can never really get enough of it

Superman is a great hero because, despite the fact that he's not a human, he does everything in his power to be the ultimate role model.

Nothing compelling he's ever done except sacrifice his life to save all of metropolis during the Doomsday Crisis

And don't tell me that it's not compelling because he came back, since that would make every marvel, dc, image etc. just as non compelling as the next.

Originally posted by chithappens
Someone please break down a compelling Superman story for me. I just don't see how he is EVER in danger.

First of all Superman has been closer to death more often than Batman IIRC. His life has been in danger plenty of times due to K-Nite, Red Sun, or simply Doomsday beating the crap out of him.

Second of all, for as much as it is possible for Batman do die b/c he is human, you know he isn't going too simply because he is the F*ckin Batman. You should know there are certain characters that no matter how much danger they're in, are simply not going to die (at least not for good) b/c of how much money they bring in.

For tomorrow is a pretty decent storyline.

Superman has goos stories yes, but often times the character comes across as uncompelling, one-dimensional.

Basically Superman suffers from his own Mythos sometimes. I mean if Superman does something crazy, what do most people say.

"He did it cause he is SUPERMAN"

So anytime fault or weakness is associated with the character it receives some backlash because if Superman is flawless then he isn't Superman. So on average he kind of gets dicked over by his own Icon story.

I mean let's look at Superman Returns. That was Iconic Superman at his best. Unmatchable in power, and just doing crazy shit. Also look at how unwell received it was.

Superman kind of has this doomed if he does, doomed if he doesn't deal going on. It sucks for the character cause he often gets tied down by it, but he has such good character potential.


Now for the question at hand who would DC kill off. Superman or Batman.

One thing is that there are people to take up the Batman Mantle that have been developed for it without any problems. Although there are plenty of Superman clones that could probably be eased into the roll just as well.


But let's be honest here Money is going to be the key factor.

Batman brings more in comics, was doing it in shows, and definitely does it in movies department.

Also you got to think of what will be gained by killing one of them off. Which ones death would generate the most revenue. Honestly "permanently" killing off the Icon that is Superman, comic book's founding hero, will generate a lot of revenue for DC. While Batman has always had great long runs of viable revenue.

Plus Batman generally has better long term sustainability. He can be from street level events to the major ones.

Superman generally hangs around in limbo(Sustained Plots) until the big events some around.

So I think DC based on Money and long term plans would kill off Superman more than Batman.

Why simply because DC could live without Superman.

Batman said it the best "The last time you inspired anybody is when you died" or something like that

If its from the comic company....batman dies..as mentioned ,his character is set-up for a downfall...with his replacements nearby

Originally posted by Newjak
Superman has goos stories yes, but often times the character comes across as uncompelling, one-dimensional.

Basically Superman suffers from his own Mythos sometimes. I mean if Superman does something crazy, what do most people say.

"He did it cause he is SUPERMAN"

So anytime fault or weakness is associated with the character it receives some backlash because if Superman is flawless then he isn't Superman. So on average he kind of gets dicked over by his own Icon story.

I mean let's look at Superman Returns. That was Iconic Superman at his best. Unmatchable in power, and just doing crazy shit. Also look at how unwell received it was.

Superman kind of has this doomed if he does, doomed if he doesn't deal going on. It sucks for the character cause he often gets tied down by it, but he has such good character potential.


Now for the question at hand who would DC kill off. Superman or Batman.

One thing is that there are people to take up the Batman Mantle that have been developed for it without any problems. Although there are plenty of Superman clones that could probably be eased into the roll just as well.


But let's be honest here Money is going to be the key factor.

Batman brings more in comics, was doing it in shows, and definitely does it in movies department.

Also you got to think of what will be gained by killing one of them off. Which ones death would generate the most revenue. Honestly "permanently" killing off the Icon that is Superman, comic book's founding hero, will generate a lot of revenue for DC. While Batman has always had great long runs of viable revenue.

Plus Batman generally has better long term sustainability. He can be from street level events to the major ones.

Superman generally hangs around in limbo(Sustained Plots) until the big events some around.

So I think DC based on Money and long term plans would kill off Superman more than Batman.

Why simply because DC could live without Superman.

All very true.

And also as much as I do think his coming back does nullify his dying for the world. Its how I feel about almost all unlasting comic death. Take Colossus for example. He died about the most heroic death there is and they screwed it by bringing him back. IMO

But with Superman, for me at least, its more so about the how he came back than anything.
As if he doesn't have enough power and abilities and what not whenever he needs it. He can also apparently refuse to stay dead!

Hell if he can't even die then whats the point of him being at risk, if the even could be?

i think this is the first time i've ever read a thread on kmc and disagreed with pretty much everyone (even newjak ), tis a sad, sad day indeed...

Originally posted by pr1983
i think this is the first time i've ever read a thread on kmc and disagreed with pretty much everyone (even newjak ), tis a sad, sad day indeed... Well we can't help your opinions wrong!

jk Pr


A little.

Originally posted by Entity
Well we can't help your opinions wrong!

jk Pr


A little.

meh, i'm not going to write another pro superman rant, i've done it enough over the years, if people don't like him, fair enough i guess...

Originally posted by pr1983
meh, i'm not going to write another pro superman rant, i've done it enough over the years, if people don't like him, fair enough i guess... Hey I'm not against Superman, but let's be honest unless you are a die hard collector of all of his things. Then most of what you say will be meaningless as a use of comparison. You've got to go by the average, and average has Superman kind a lacking in many aspects, IMO because he is so Iconic. That nobody, except for a few, want to see a weak or emotional Superman.

They want a Superman who is just SUPERMAN.

It's odd but I think Superman is like an Action hero in real life. Everybody sees him as SUPERMAN, and that leaves little room for him to be just Superman.

And don't worry Avlon, or JUntai, or Val will come on and agree with you pr.

Originally posted by Entity
As if he doesn't have enough power and abilities and what not whenever he needs it. He can also apparently refuse to stay dead!
He came back because of the Eradicator and Jonathan Kent. Not because he himself has the power to come back from the dead.

It was revealed in some comic where Superman was talking to Dr. Occult.

Originally posted by Newjak
Hey I'm not against Superman, but let's be honest unless you are a die hard collector of all of his things. Then most of what you say will be meaningless as a use of comparison. You've got to go by the average, and average has Superman kind a lacking in many aspects, IMO because he is so Iconic. That nobody, except for a few, want to see a weak or emotional Superman.

They want a Superman who is just SUPERMAN.

It's odd but I think Superman is like an Action hero in real life. Everybody sees him as SUPERMAN, and that leaves little room for him to be just Superman.

And don't worry Avlon, or JUntai, or Val will come on and agree with you pr.


...i'm biased, but i'm not blind...

i've read bad superman, just like everyone else...

Originally posted by pr1983
...i'm biased, but i'm not blind...

i've read bad superman, just like everyone else... Bad Superman I didn't think such a thing existed in DC

Originally posted by pr1983
...i'm biased, but i'm not blind...

i've read bad superman, just like everyone else... Well you did say you'd read superman. ermm

Originally posted by Newjak
Bad Superman I didn't think such a thing existed in DC

its often enough... but the good outweighs the bad imo...

Originally posted by Entity
Well you did say you'd read superman. ermm

...ouch.

Originally posted by Newjak
Bad Superman I didn't think such a thing existed in DC Oh god no! Thats like their first commandment.

1.) Thou shall not question the greatness of thy kryptonian

Originally posted by pr1983
...ouch. Finally one hit!

Originally posted by pr1983
its often enough... but the good outweighs the bad imo... I thought DC retconed all the bad stuff to make it seem good hmm

I agree I think the good outweighs the bad,

but at the same time I think there is enough bad for me to think that Superman has kind of gotten bogged down by his own name. He's like a piece of property that has been so productive, and has become so protected. That in the end he seems to have very little true wiggle room. Which for me sucks cause I think he has such great potential.

Originally posted by Newjak
I thought DC retconed all the bad stuff to make it seem good hmm

I agree I think the good outweighs the bad,

but at the same time I think there is enough bad for me to think that Superman has kind of gotten bogged down by his own name. He's like a piece of property that has been so productive, and has become so protected. That in the end he seems to have very little true wiggle room. Which for me sucks cause I think he has such great potential.

in what sense? as a character, or power wise?

Superman Blue was great I thought and Red & Blue even better.

but just like always his fans and DC couldn't stand for him not to be prefect so it just snapped right back to the way it was without any real explainion.

It's ok thou, I'm sure they'll completely bs there way outta it eventually.
If they haven't already

Originally posted by Entity
Superman Blue was great I thought and Red & Blue even better.

but just like always his fans and DC couldn't stand for him not to be prefect so it just snapped right back to the way it was without any real explainion.

It's ok thou, I'm sure they'll completely bs there way outta it eventually.
If they haven't already

they have gone out of their way in the last few years to show how imperfect he is; how he sees himself, and how he struggles to define his place in the world...

for tomorrow, the journey, sacrifice... if you've read em already, read em again!

Originally posted by pr1983
in what sense? as a character, or power wise? Both

Yes I know there are stories that delve into what it is like to be Superman.

But when I compare those to others it really lacks IMO.

To me the character always has to be SUPERMAN, he just can not be Superman. His own Iconic nature doesn't allow him to be.

Seriously how much potential does Superman have.

Do you think if he was any other character but Superman any writer on board wouldn't have tapped that potential regularly.

It's Superman gets handled with kid gloves in that aspect. Mostly I think because most fans don't want to see a fallible version of him. Both Power wise and Emotional wise.


Originally posted by pr1983
they have gone out of their way in the last few years to show how imperfect he is; how he sees himself, and how he struggles to define his place in the world...

for tomorrow, the journey, sacrifice... if you've read em already, read em again! Like I said when I compare those to others I find them lacking.

I think the best way to say it is,

No matter what he goes through in a comic, at the end of the day he is still SUPERMAN, and it seems like he will always be SUPERMAN. That he can never be anything more than SUPERMAN.

Originally posted by pr1983
they have gone out of their way in the last few years to show how imperfect he is; how he sees himself, and how he struggles to define his place in the world...

for tomorrow, the journey, sacrifice... if you've read em already, read em again! I have read For Tomorrow and journey and I'm sorry but I just don't buy it.

The guy who's got and always had everything and never does anything wrong has deep inner concerns about not being one of us, even thou he looks just like us and is loved by everyone on his earth. Or the fact that he misses something he never actually had when he was raised in the perfect family with every power a kid could want to boot.

I just don't buy the I've got problems that wouldn't bother anyone else but they bother me because I'm Superman.
It just puts me in mind of a spoiled little rich kid crying, "You just don't understand how hard it is to have everything!"

Originally posted by pr1983
they have gone out of their way in the last few years to show how imperfect he is; how he sees himself, and how he struggles to define his place in the world...

for tomorrow, the journey, sacrifice... if you've read em already, read em again!

Or...you could go read one of the best and most beautiful stories ever made again.

Kingdom Come. .

Originally posted by Newjak
Superman has goos stories yes, but often times the character comes across as uncompelling, one-dimensional.

Basically Superman suffers from his own Mythos sometimes. I mean if Superman does something crazy, what do most people say.

"He did it cause he is SUPERMAN"

So anytime fault or weakness is associated with the character it receives some backlash because if Superman is flawless then he isn't Superman. So on average he kind of gets dicked over by his own Icon story.



I could have put it like this but I will simply co-sign. It's not a blind "hatred."

I like Superman. I just find it hard to be moved by him lately because everyone is going to those "he can't do it because he's not motivated" or "Oh no, kryptonite!" storylines.

Originally posted by Soljer
Or...you could go read one of the best and most beautiful stories ever made again.

Kingdom Come. . Oh I do love Kingdom Come!

Superman an old washed up has been. Now turned recluse because he actually lost something for real. Captain Marvel beating his ass. And then him finally almost going apeshit because he can't take being the boyscout anymore.

Of course he stops and doesn't go completely ape shit. But it was nice to see him actually read to for once!

Originally posted by Soljer
Or...you could go read one of the best and most beautiful stories ever made again.

Kingdom Come. .

Shazam!

Originally posted by chithappens
I like Superman. I just find it hard to be moved by him lately because everyone is going to those "he can't do it because he's not motivated" or "Oh no, kryptonite!" storylines.

Doesn't sound like most of the recent Superman storylines.

Camelot Falls
Last Son
Back in Action
Redemption

Originally posted by Entity
Oh I do love Kingdom Come!

Superman an old washed up has been. Now turned recluse because he actually lost something for real. Captain Marvel beating his ass. And then him finally almost going apeshit because he can't take being the boyscout anymore.

Of course he stops and doesn't go completely ape shit. But it was nice to see him actually read to for once!

I think you're misinterpreting the storyline, very heavily.

Superman wasn't a has-been, he was pretty much viewed as friggin' Jesus. Everyone was waiting for his second coming, and when it finally came, the entire world fell into line.

And Captain Marvel and Superman were pretty evenly matched as far as actual fighting goes. Marvel's magic lightning both gave him an edge and proved his undoing.

*shrugs*

Originally posted by Rorschach
Doesn't sound like most of the recent Superman storylines.

Camelot Falls
Last Son
Back in Action
Redemption

Cosigned. The only people who think every Superman storyline is about motivation or Kryptonite are the people that never read Superman.

Originally posted by Soljer
Cosigned. The only people who think every Superman storyline is about motivation or Kryptonite are the people that never read Superman. Like you mmm

See, the way DC thinks is like this...Superman dies....who is going to save earth now? The obvious answer is Captain Marvel. To them that's not good enough. We all know DC treats CM like a step child and Superman is their beloved son. So you'll never see Captain Marvel over Superman now or ever. Even if Captain Marvel possess all the powers superman can tap...you won't see CM over Superman.

With Batman is totally different. Neither Dick, Tim or even Jason can come near the status of Bruce. You can never replace Bruce.

Batman or Superman...it's just never easy to pick one over the other.

Originally posted by Newjak

No matter what he goes through in a comic, at the end of the day he is still SUPERMAN, and it seems like he will always be SUPERMAN. That he can never be anything more than SUPERMAN.

I find this statement to be a matter of opinion...

From my point of view, he regularly does things that elevate his status beyond that of just "Superman".

His weaknesses, (and not just K-nite) give him human qualities which makes dealing with the prospect of being "super" extremely difficult.

Originally posted by Newjak
Both

Yes I know there are stories that delve into what it is like to be Superman.

But when I compare those to others it really lacks IMO.

other characters? other stories? i liked em...



he chose to be superman, he has a responsibility to those around him... its a choice he made, and now people rely on him...



right now superman's two titles are written by geoff johns (mister dc himself), and kurt busiek (as good as any superman writer on his day, imo)



the gog storyline? he had a heart attack and still fought on even though the poison was slowly killing him... ermm

the journey/sacrifice, the whole jla turned against him... thats not fallible? even in camelot falls the jla had a go at him again...



ok, fair enough, but i disagree...



are you saying being superman isnt good enough?

Originally posted by Entity
I have read For Tomorrow and journey and I'm sorry but I just don't buy it.

The guy who's got and always had everything and never does anything wrong has deep inner concerns about not being one of us, even thou he looks just like us and is loved by everyone on his earth. Or the fact that he misses something he never actually had when he was raised in the perfect family with every power a kid could want to boot.

I just don't buy the I've got problems that wouldn't bother anyone else but they bother me because I'm Superman.
It just puts me in mind of a spoiled little rich kid crying, "You just don't understand how hard it is to have everything!"

but thats the point... no matter how human he seems, no matter how normal he can come accross as, he is constantly reminded that he isn't human, that he doesn't fit in... he's loved like any celebrity would be, but none of those people know how hard it is for him to live among humans... he has to exercise control over everything... he cant even touch his wife without fear of snapping her in half... on the outside, it seems like a perfect life, thats true...

but superman, when he doesnt save a life, takes it personally, because he is capable of saving almost anyone, and he doesnt see why he shouldnt be able to... thats why he keeps trying... he literally feels as if he has the world on his shoulders, and when the slightest thing goes wrong, he takes it incredibly personally... its because he has the powers he has that its harder for him, because unlike most heroes, there are very few wrongs he cant right, so every failure, no matter how slight, becomes a huge deal...

Originally posted by Soljer
Or...you could go read one of the best and most beautiful stories ever made again.

Kingdom Come. .

yeah, true...

Originally posted by pr1983
other characters? other stories? i liked em...



he chose to be superman, he has a responsibility to those around him... its a choice he made, and now people rely on him...



right now superman's two titles are written by geoff johns (mister dc himself), and kurt busiek (as good as any superman writer on his day, imo)



the gog storyline? he had a heart attack and still fought on even though the poison was slowly killing him... ermm

the journey/sacrifice, the whole jla turned against him... thats not fallible? even in camelot falls the jla had a go at him again...



ok, fair enough, but i disagree...



are you saying being superman isnt good enough?
You see the problem with your little comments are I already know about all those instances.

Yet the overall image of Superman remains the same.

Take any normal joe schmo on the street and ask him which comic book people can beat Superman what do you think they will say?

Heck take the general comic book reader and ask them who can beat Superman. Take 50% of comic book readers and ask then who could beat Superman under Abstract and what do you think the answers will be?


Like I said a few writings don't change what the whole really is.



"are you saying being superman isnt good enough? "

I'm not saying it isn't but are you honestly going to sit there and say Superman's iconic stature doesn't hamper character development overall?

Originally posted by Newjak
You see the problem with your little comments are I already know about all those instances.

Yet the overall image of Superman remains the same.

Take any normal joe schmo on the street and ask him which comic book people can beat Superman what do you think they will say?

Heck take the general comic book reader and ask them who can beat Superman. Take 50% of comic book readers and ask then who could beat Superman under Abstract and what do you think the answers will be?


Like I said a few writings don't change what the whole really is.



"are you saying being superman isnt good enough? "

I'm not saying it isn't but are you honestly going to sit there and say Superman's iconic stature doesn't hamper character development overall?

we arent going to ever agree on this, are we?

Originally posted by pr1983
we arent going to ever agree on this, are we? Probably not

But it's alright I forgive you for being wrong

Originally posted by Newjak
Probably not

But it's alright I forgive you for being wrong



said the juggernaut fan...

Originally posted by pr1983


said the juggernaut fan... Says the Cyclops fan

Superman > Cyclops > Juggernaut.

In terms of characterization....

And overall power. .

Originally posted by Soljer
Superman > Cyclops > Juggernaut.

In terms of characterization....

And overall power. .

lulz...

Originally posted by Soljer
Superman > Cyclops > Juggernaut.

In terms of characterization....

And overall power. . You're dead to me Soljer

Batman is so much more interesting than Superman IMO. Obviously DC will not remove one or the other completely from their titles (I highly doubt Batman R.I.P storyline will even do that)

Originally posted by Entity
Yea I was really wanting this to be a vs thing. I don't see why it needed to be moved!

Because it wasn't a true vs thread, hence the move.

Now this may be off topic but I'm going to rant about Supes redemptive qualities. Superman is the hero that heros look up to, its the concept of heroics, so people can have faith in how Superman can be there and be saved. To say it in a weird way, that a perfect guy like Supes exist gives hope to people that the guy can be better.

(Kind of like Captain America in Marvel.)

The thing is that you don't write Superman as a hero, his conflict comes from his status as an icon. I think about Kingdom Come and I see that when Superman retired from heroics, so did his status as an icon, a great part of the conflict in kingdom come is that when he comes back he becomes a leader, but not an inspiration as he used to be. This is also why Luthor is the perfect enemy for Supes, he doesn't want to kill him, he wants him to stop being the Icon he is. So you don't really get to write him like the others, its just not as compelling when you do.

The marvelous thing to read about Superman is the effects he has on others. I don't need to see Superman defeated as much as I need to have conflictive ideas about what people say about him. Take how Batman thinks of Supes, Bruce would like to believe that the world is a good place, he would like to have faith in what Superman symbolizes, but we have heard many times how he is worried about Clark's potential for destruction -like in Pr's signature. That is good Superman if you ask me.

End of rant.

Superman would die first in my opinion, but another symbol would rise to take his place.

Originally posted by Bentley
Now this may be off topic but I'm going to rant about Supes redemptive qualities. Superman is the hero that heros look up to, its the concept of heroics, so people can have faith in how Superman can be there and be saved. To say it in a weird way, that a perfect guy like Supes exist gives hope to people that the guy can be better.

(Kind of like Captain America in Marvel.)

The thing is that you don't write Superman as a hero, his conflict comes from his status as an icon. I think about Kingdom Come and I see that when Superman retired from heroics, so did his status as an icon, a great part of the conflict in kingdom come is that when he comes back he becomes a leader, but not an inspiration as he used to be. This is also why Luthor is the perfect enemy for Supes, he doesn't want to kill him, he wants him to stop being the Icon he is. So you don't really get to write him like the others, its just not as compelling when you do.

The marvelous thing to read about Superman is the effects he has on others. I don't need to see Superman defeated as much as I need to have conflictive ideas about what people say about him. Take how Batman thinks of Supes, Bruce would like to believe that the world is a good place, he would like to have faith in what Superman symbolizes, but we have heard many times how he is worried about Clark's potential for destruction -like in Pr's signature. That is good Superman if you ask me.

End of rant.

Superman would die first in my opinion, but another symbol would rise to take his place.

I agree.......










it was off topic