ROTS Anakin Vs Darth Sion

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laser7455
Who wins?

1.Saber battle
2.Force battle
3.All out

Darth Exodus
Sion in all but Force

666.1
Anakin gets absolutely destroyed in all three.

123KID
Anakin is better than Sion in everything but he can't kill him

666.1
Where's the proof for such a crazy assertion?

123KID
the fact ROTS Anakin defeated Count Dooku in a lightsaber duel
NO ONE in KOTOR has feats to suggest they are on Dooku's level in saber dueling and Anakin tooled him

also the fact Anakin has the power to colllapse entire buildings just by yeling and wildly exerting his Force power

we know by Traya's words that Sion is an idiot in terms of Force powers and knowledge
all he has is his durability

666.1
Originally posted by 123KID
the fact ROTS Anakin defeated Count Dooku in a lightsaber duel
NO ONE in KOTOR has feats to suggest they are on Dooku's level in saber dueling and Anakin tooled him

1. Absence of proof =/= proof of absence.

2. The idea that Anakin "tooled" him only exists within the invalid novelisation fight scene.

3. Sion's one hit takedown of a Force user as capable as Traya is far more impressive than Anakin's questionably legitimate defeat of Dooku.



No-one's denying that Anakin's raw power is beyond that of any other, which is exactly all that was: an unfocused release of his power. Doesn't change the fact that he can't control it (hell, the act almost killed him), and thus it's completely irrelevant for this scenario, which doesn't take into account uncontrolled releases of power, and even then, the destruction of a building with the force is hardly unprecedented.



It's left completely ambiguous as to exactly what Kreia was referring to when she declares that Sion had "learnt nothing." To claim that she was talking with respect to force knowledge requires evidence, and since when was Anakin's knowledge of the force anything other than minimal?



Which alone is testament to his overall ability.

123KID
1. also with no proof we don't assume they are better than was shown

2. he tooled Dooku in the movie too once Dooku taunted him he laid into the Count and disarmed him (literally) in about a minute or less

3. no it's not Traya has nothing on Dooku in shown lightsaber combat pworess and Anakin definitley beat Dooku fairly

don't make me send up the Advent signal



considering Anakin uses actual Force powers whereas Sion simply fought in lightsaber combat and never did so much as a Force push it's pretty evident

Pwned61
Originally posted by 666.1
1. Absence of proof =/= proof of absence.


And you can't throw that up every time you don't have enough evidence to prove a point

Originally posted by 666.1

2. The idea that Anakin "tooled" him only exists within the invalid novelisation fight scene.

Lightsnake and Gideon have shown numerous times in the past, the novelizations are perfectly canon.

Originally posted by 666.1

3. Sion's one hit takedown of a Force user as capable as Traya is far more impressive than Anakin's questionably legitimate defeat of Dooku.


I assume you're going to provide some kind of argument as to why cutting off the hand of an old women, one not none for close quarters combat, is in anyway impressive.

Originally posted by 666.1

No-one's denying that Anakin's raw power is beyond that of any other, which is exactly all that was: an unfocused release of his power. Doesn't change the fact that he can't control it (hell, the act almost killed him), and thus it's completely irrelevant for this scenario, which doesn't take into account uncontrolled releases of power, and even then, the destruction of a building with the force is hardly unprecedented.

While I agree that the destruction of the building isn't exactly the most amazing display of power in the SW universe, it's certainly better than anything Sion can do. And he's got force feats beyond that of course,

Originally posted by 666.1

It's left completely ambiguous as to exactly what Kreia was referring to when she declares that Sion had "learnt nothing." To claim that she was talking with respect to force knowledge requires evidence, and since when was Anakin's knowledge of the force anything other than minimal?

Anakin's spent years training underneath one of the most respected Jedi of his time, and has been stated by different sources as being one of the most powerful Jedi alive. His knowledge is far from minimal. As for Sion, he has one, albeit powerful, ability to his name. One that doesn't even seem to stem from intensive study of the force, but just from learning to channel his own pain.

Originally posted by 666.1

Which alone is testament to his overall ability.

Hardly, it's one ability, take it away and he's little more than a nuisance to most. We don't even really understand a lot about how the technique works. For example, if he's decapitated, what then? Also, who's to say the ability can even work most of the time, every time we've seen him use it, he's been in a place where he's empowered by the darkside (Korriban and Malachor), and both times he specifically said the world itself was empowering him.

Darth Sexy
Noobaris, haven't you been banned enough?
Anyways, Sion couldn't get past the Exile's defenses so the Exile talked him to death. What the hell is Sion going to do against Anakin? As LS says, "he's not immortal if his head is off". He hasn't shown anything with a saber nor the force so there's no reason to believe he could compete with someone of Anakin's caliber, except for "Omgz he's invincible@@($"

666.1
Originally posted by 123KID
1. also with no proof we don't assume they are better than was shown

Your original assertion: Anakin is better than Sion in everything but he can't kill him.

You made the claim, so it's up to you to undeniably prove it.

Your evidence: the fact ROTS Anakin defeated Count Dooku in a lightsaber duel

NO ONE in KOTOR has feats to suggest they are on Dooku's level in saber dueling and Anakin tooled him.

Essentially, you're saying that because he displayed something that there's no proof of Sion displaying, he's better than him.

Absence of proof =/= proof of absence, ergo your evidence does not undeniably prove your original assertion like it should have.



Your interpretation doesn't make it so. It was relatively even right up until the point that Anakin pulled an unorthodox manoeuvre on him. The fact that Anakin was the one on the offensive doesn't change that, seeing as his style is naturally more offensive than Dooku's



Irrelevant misdirection. Her lightsaber prowess would have only been a factor if they exchanged blows, and if Sion had defeated her through superior technique (such as: drawing her saber away from where he dealt the killing blow through a complex manoeuvre, or finding her balance point and using it to his advantage etc.). That's not what happened; Sion defeated her in one move, by moving far quicker than she could react to, and defend against (where speed and reflexes would have been the only relevant factors on her part -- both of which would logically be extremely impressive, given her extraordinary force ability, and the fact that the two attributes are mostly powered through the Force).



Prove it. The novel (the part that doesn't contradict the movie) disagrees.



Do it, I dare you!



Like what? All I've seen him perform (aside from the passive abilities such as enhancing physical attributes with the force, or precognition) is TK, the Jedi Mind Trick, and using the force to tame a wild animal.



Sion appeared in one game, and even then he was -- at best -- a supporting character, who rarely appeared. He's had less opportunity to display such knowledge, and even then, we do know that he was a practitioner of the Force bond severing technique, as well as a Master of the force camouflage ability, just as the entire sect of Sith Assassins were.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by 666.1
Your original assertion: Anakin is better than Sion in everything but he can't kill him.

You made the claim, so it's up to you to undeniably prove it.
Nobody has to prove it because it's fact. YOU have to prove that Sion is better than Anakin, seeing as how he's shown no abilities besides his vague immortality.



And good old Noobaris strikes out again with his "absence of proof is not proof of absence argument". Seeing as how Anakin's abilities are factually above Sion's in saber combat and in the force, you have to prove that Sion is anywhere near HIS level. Since you can't, you lose yet another argument.




Excuses and poor justifications don't change the fact that Anakin tooled Dooku.




Traya let Sion win. You bringing up this point only makes you look dumber than you already do.

Gideon
Using the absence of proof clause as a shield is ridiculous. If Person X has not demonstrated the power/skill/knowledge/whatever of Person Y, and there are no canon sources, quotes, statements, stances, events that support the conclusion that Person X > Person Y, then Person Y is clearly greater. The absence of proof clause doesn't change that. This is still logical deduction.

666.1
Originally posted by Pwned61
And you can't throw that up every time you don't have enough evidence to prove a point

See my reply to Nikkolas.



Physical attributes mean little when the Force is concerned, as can be seen with Yoda, and the majority of old aged Force users.



Irrelevant misdirection. Her lightsaber prowess would have only been a factor if they exchanged blows, and if Sion had defeated her through superior technique (such as: drawing her saber away from where he dealt the killing blow through a complex manoeuvre, or finding her balance point and using it to his advantage etc.). That's not what happened; Sion defeated her in one move, by moving far quicker than she could react to, and defend against (where speed and reflexes would have been the only relevant factors on her part -- both of which would logically be extremely impressive, given her extraordinary force ability, and the fact that the two attributes are mostly powered through the Force).



Irrelevant misdirection. Her lightsaber prowess would have only been a factor if they exchanged blows, and if Sion had defeated her through superior technique (such as: drawing her saber away from where he dealt the killing blow through a complex manoeuvre, or finding her balance point and using it to his advantage etc.). That's not what happened; Sion defeated her in one move, by moving far quicker than she could react to, and defend against (where speed and reflexes would have been the only relevant factors on her part -- both of which would logically be extremely impressive, given her extraordinary force ability, and the fact that the two attributes are mostly powered through the Force).



Better than cheating death, something completely unprecedented?

You're doing a poor job at arguing from personal incredulity.



Like what exactly?



Which is a false conclusion.

Jedi are respected for their deeds, wisdom, and character. Not their force knowledge, and you can gain power without knowledge (refinement, and force strength best lead to power).



All force abilities are drawn from the same power source: the Force, and the potency of each one varies with the user's ability with the Force. Meaning, the excellence behind his force-powered durability speaks for his overall ability.



Read the above.



We know that it made the Exile's lightsaber effectively useless, we know that it could withstand a full on onslaught from Darth Nihilus, and we know that it goes beyond just being resistant to tangible damage, but also attacks such as the Force bond severing technique.



For all we know, his ability to hold his body together would prevent such a thing from happening. As said, the Exile's lightsaber was pretty much useless against him, and I don't recall Sion having lost any limbs during the battle.



What he actually said is that the darkside of the world empowered him. Assuming that the setting here is neutral, the Planet would have a balance of both the light side and the dark side within it.

Darth Sexy
no

0°Mandalore°0
This is ridiculous. Just ignore the guy, for god's sake. If persons keep responding to his posts he will keep coming back.

Gideon

0°Mandalore°0
You actually can't reason with like 80% of what he says..

But yeah, if his argument makes sense, or at least is reasonably well structured, I guess it's okay to respond. If not, I wouldn't bother.

Lt. Valerian
Why does everyone hate this Nebaris?

Pwned61
I have to go to work soon, so I'll only respond to a couple of points before I leave, I'll be back though.

Originally posted by 666.1

Irrelevant misdirection. Her lightsaber prowess would have only been a factor if they exchanged blows, and if Sion had defeated her through superior technique (such as: drawing her saber away from where he dealt the killing blow through a complex manoeuvre, or finding her balance point and using it to his advantage etc.). That's not what happened; Sion defeated her in one move, by moving far quicker than she could react to, and defend against (where speed and reflexes would have been the only relevant factors on her part -- both of which would logically be extremely impressive, given her extraordinary force ability, and the fact that the two attributes are mostly powered through the Force).


Check out Dark Rendezvous sometime, the character scout is said to be somewhat weak in the force, yet also is noted at having a talent for battle pre-cog, allowing her to compete with stronger fighters in lightsaber combat. This goes to show that there isn't necessarily a connection between a persons force enhanced reflexes and their relative power with the force, as you claim. It's a technique that can be refined like any other.

What's more, even if there were, your own logic defeats itself. If Traya apparently posses great pre-cog due to her force ability than Anakin would, proportionally speaking, be able to see Sion's attacks a day ahead of time.



Originally posted by 666.1

We know that it made the Exile's lightsaber effectively useless, we know that it could withstand a full on onslaught from Darth Nihilus, and we know that it goes beyond just being resistant to tangible damage, but also attacks such as the Force bond severing technique.



For all we know, his ability to hold his body together would prevent such a thing from happening. As said, the Exile's lightsaber was pretty much useless against him, and I don't recall Sion having lost any limbs during the battle.


You know, Gideon is right, you are an intelligent debater, makes me wonder why you waste all your time trolling. Seriously, arguing gameplay mechanics? Malak didn't have visible injuries on him at the end of kotor 1, are we to assume then that Malak is also lightsaber resistant? And the scene with Nihilus was cut, ergo not canon, so drop the point.

caedusrulesall
Drop dead Nebaris.

Anyways, here's why Anakin gets pwned:

The only way to make Sion stop fighting and die is to reason with him, and Anakin's reasoning consists of whining, yelling and angst.

Not a pretty picture for Anakin:

Near Immortal Sith Lord vs. Whiny newly made Jedi Knight that yells a lot

Eh. Sion wins.

Gideon
Originally posted by Lt. Valerian
Why does everyone hate this Nebaris?

"Hate" is relative, but I'm certain that no one here actually hates one another. The problem that most of us have with Nebaris is that he was banned, once (and I can't remember the offense), but keeps coming back to the forums, account after account, and he's well over the dozen-mark. I will be the first to stand up for him; he's a very intelligent guy and he's very relentless (his drive is like mine a year or so ago). The conflicts that emerge, however, is that he attempts to disrupt the status quo with arguments that hinge on one or two abstract points that are not logically sound. When he's confronted with a canon statement or fact that he does not like, he throws up the "ambiguity" card in an attempt to nullify it. When he's confronted with the fact that he can't prove a certain skill or power for one of his favorite characters, he'll throw up the "absence of proof" clause in an attempt to prevent us from assuming the contrary. He also finds himself very amusing and tends to degrade debates into lectures on "who is wittier!" and repeatedly calls Darth Sexy "Darth Repetitive" (though he's being repetitive himself). In essence, he rarely offers anything new that would have a strong change on the overall argument, though he's very skilled at nitpicking (which is a compliment, Nebaris).

Lt. Valerian
Damn. If he keeps coming back, then he should at least try new arguments.

Though, he probably comes back for fun. Maybe he just likes to annoy people here...

0°Mandalore°0
Originally posted by Lt. Valerian
Maybe he just likes to annoy people here...

Most likely.

darthsith19
Originally posted by 123KID
Anakin is better than Sion in everything but he can't kill him
I agree. eek!

Elite Hunter
Not to mention Nebaris has literally been banned from Kmc over 30 times now. But I think Anakin overall is the better fighter but it depends on Sion's ability and if it truly works in areas not strong in the darkside. Which I seriously have my doubts about.(and I already said why in the other thread) I think I give it to about Anakin 70/30(it may be a little high) due to Sion's ability and if Anakin can cut off his hand/s like with Dooku then he wins or he could decapitate him.

darthsith19
Yeah if Anakin cuts of Sion's head and all his limbs could he just then take them and lock them away? Hence winning?

Lt. Valerian
Sion has always been a difficult character to discuss. Many people confuse the meanings of the word immortal and invincible, but the ironic thing about him is that he is, actually, neither.
Immortal --- definition: "Immortality (or eternal life) is the concept of living in physical or spiritual form for an infinite length of time". He is not eternal. When someone is immortal, you simply cannot die in any way. The fact that Sion can die, takes the word immortality out of the way.
Invincible --- definition: "impossible to defeat, overcome, or deny". Sion is not, by any means, impossible to defeat. If someone is able to talk him to his death, then he is, even if it's only in one clumsy way, defeatable.

Just felt like pointing that out.

As to the fight, Anakin is superior to Sion in every way. Even if he is not able to talk him to his death, I believe Sion might (sooner or later) think he will never be able to defeat someone such as him, and will eventually choose to die.
If Sion does not surrender, and Anakin is not able to talk him to his death, then he will (after a very long period of time) defeat him.

Janus Marius
I expect you can formulate a good argument to substantiate these claims, right?

Lightsnake
It relies on this: Can Sion somehow not lose limbs when sliced clean though? Anakin can't kill him, sure. Does that preclude him from beheading Sion?

Darth Sexy
So lets assume that at best, Anakin can't kill him or talk him down. Is Sion going to keep on fighting Anakin until he gets tired?

Gideon
Right, like you've done on this thread (and the one where he's pitted against Palpatine) where Sion has demonstrated some remarkable skill? Sion's only shot at victory is the hope that Anakin "Force-Train" Skywalker will run out of energy.

Janus Marius
Final Fight- Darth Sion

This makes it pretty clear of the following:

1. Sion embraces the Dark Side fully, it giving him power. He seems to be boosted in places of evil.

2. Sion has a soft spot for the Exile and does not destroy her when he has plenty of opportunity to do so.

3. SIon cannot be defeated by lightsaber combat apparently. He rejuvenates himself using the Dark Side, and keeps his body intact. So unless you honestly think the Exile was hitting him with a frying pan, there's no reason to assume he can not take a lightsaber stab or swing and heal or plain just keep coming. All he has to do is block one attack with his hand and stab with the other and any opponent is immediately overcome. Anyone who's seen the final fight in Rob Roy can understand the importance of self-preservation NOT being a factor in a fight.

4. Sion uses Force Drain too. This isn't a great surprise, since Traya said pretty much all the Sith Assassins do it, but to see him use it in action means he can use it against Sidious. And he can see Sidious, so there's none of this "omfg can't see lol" argument going for him. No one's conclusively proved that Quey'tek prevents Force Eating, either.

Sion- First Fight on Korriban

1. You see Sion heal in mid-combat here after taking serious damage.

2. Kreia pretty much says Sion is not a typical living being and cannot be defeated. She also implies that places of Dark Side strength make him too much for the Exile and her friends, though it seems from most canon sources that any such place aids Dark Siders in general.

Add to all this the scan of Sion's body found onboard the Harbinger (When they show his body broken, maimed, and remended in thousands of different places), and it would stand to reason that Sion cannot simply be swatted away or cut down with ease.

Considering that both of you feel Sidious can prep a defense for Nihilus within a heartbeat simply by reading his holocron (And somehow that's acceptable reasoning), I conclude based on the above that Sion cannot be properly defeated or killed in personal combat since he is not of "flesh and blood" and may heal and keep his body intact when it should by all intents and purposes be in pieces on the floor.

Sion rushes Anakin, kills him. Period. Anakin has never shown the kind of forward thinking that would make him good enough to last against someone who cannot rightly be killed.

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Janus Marius
Final Fight- Darth Sion

This makes it pretty clear of the following:

1. Sion embraces the Dark Side fully, it giving him power. He seems to be boosted in places of evil.
And if it's not a place of evil?

He says he cannot be killed on Malachor, specifically. Outside, though? What, exactly, keeps his body together if sliced cleanly through with a saber? And in Rob Roy, Rob won because Archibald took the moment to gloat and grabbed Archibald's sword. If anyone fights without self preservation, it's Darth bane

He uses it on who, now? And is there an odd reason Palpatine is going to be incapable of using it on him? Noticeably, Sion's draining is never fatal when used.
And when does he 'use it in action' now? Can 'random Sith assassin 51' kill Palpatine and Maul, too?
And actually, Janus, you keep dancing around the argument, refusing to admit the possibility you can be wrong unless someone shows a direct reference to someone using Quey'Tek to counter a force drain?
Question: If Sion can't feel Palpatine in the force, how can he drain him through it?
Or, y'know, he just can't.

Gameplay. I'm so convinced. You know what happened in MY game? The Exile ran around laying mines and lured Sion into them.

At what point does she explicitly say he cannot be defeated? she also says he knows nothing of power or teaching. And does Kreia ever say "Oh, and if you cut at his neck, his head stays on'?

Sabers. They cut. And they cauterize as they cut. And they cut just about everything. Sion's bare flesh included. Anakin can easily divest him of limbs.

But the Ancient Sith knew the technique so they MUST know the technique! And Palpatine learned from them AND has studied Nihilus's holocron...wait.

Yet he's shown ability to fight and defeat skilled saber combatants.
Sion rushes Anakin and his head flies off.

You want to argue that? Show me ANY proof of Sion's saber abilities/. Unlike darth bane, you can cut Sion physically. Show me evidence Sion's head remains on when a saber slices clean through his neck or cease arguing.

I wanted sources! In fact, I want to hold you to the same standards you claim to have except when you need to prove something.

Lightsnake
For the benefit of others, my response to Janus elsewhere:

Thank you, Janus. Yes, we know Sion can take damage. Can he or can he not keep his head and limbs attached them they're sliced clean through or can't he? Can he or can't he? Proof? Now? Show us?
"I proved Sion can take a lot of damage!" Good for you! We know, we knew. We want PROOF he can still fight when decapitated, because quite frankly, I'm asking you to prove that his body will stay attached when sliced up, especially when he's on CORUSCANT. In fact, I don't think you actually CAN prove that. In fact, I'm pretty sure you can't.

And way to ignore Palpatine's students display the ability of complete masking! Or that two Sith in his teaching line do the same and it would logically be necessary in Bane's line! Funny how that logic works. So the ancient Sith can know and deal with the Force drain, but Palpatine obviously doesn't know what his students and teacher's teachers do! Nope, that's illogical. Completely.

Funny how Vergere uses the force subtly and the Yammosks never pick her up..proof using the force reveals you? Hey, Zannah is using it too and nothing picks her up. Not the numerous Jedi above her head, certainly.

And he CAN use it instantly. If LUMIYA, a being with little force ability can use it without effort, or Jacen, or vergere, all Palp's inferiors can use it instantly...how does it follow Palpatine can't?


And then there's Sion, who you've yet to prove can take being sliced clean through by a superior saber opponent, who never uses Force Drain to any fatal degree (Sorry, Janus, gameplay doesn't count. I know this probably cuts out part of your argument, but otherwise Nihilus can use Death Field on the Exile. And hey, wait a sec...Sion can use it on the exile, too! Coincidentally gameplay! Meaning...absolutely nothing unless random sIth peon 451 can take Palpatine too. Yeah, right, even dark side Exile has to actually DEFEAT the opponents first).


Try winning the argument next time, Janus, and try to actually use your own standards. In fact, why don't you show evidence when you're continuously asked? You're conspicuously silent when asked for proof Sion can tank hits that'll slice clean through his neck. Or use Force drain when he can't find someone's force presence. He may know Palpatine's there, but he still needs to FIGHT him. At what point does Sion actually use Force drain on an opponent? Hey, wait...there was none of it on Traya when he first met her again...or any of the Exile's very force sensitive companions. Say, maybe he just won't use it in a fight? Maybe his personality can be taken into account? Maybe the point you're trying to use is totally defunct?

Way to ignore everything Nikk and I posted, Janus. Nope, ignoring completely how Nihilus doesn't notice human presences, that he will feel them 'unless they mask their presence.' So that leaves Sion...who you've yet to prove, despite being asked many times, can deal with losing limbs and head to saber slashes, or has any great skill with a saber whatsoever, especially to the level Palpatine is on.

So, try again. And try taking a good look at what you post before you start whining at me for lacking proof.

Janus Marius
Then there's obviously a marked decrease in his ability to draw on the Dark Side. Thankfully for him, this hasn't hindered him from keeping his body in one-piece while elsewhere.



I'm not so sure I understand why you keep insisting that someone will "slice cleanly" through Sion using a saber-- What is he going to be doing? Nothing? Does it matter? Sidious could lop off an arm if I were to just agree and say "he can be maimed", and then Sion kills him with the other arm. BFD. The game states that Sion is unbeatable, which in turn either implies that he cannot be defeated because he's that good or his body cannot be destroyed. Take your pick.




Who cares if it is fatal? Sids gets Force Drained, he gets stunned and his concentration is broken; Nihilus sees him and eats him. GG.



Remember, I'm not the one here asserting that Qey'tek makes one invisible to sense through the Force. If anything, source materials contradict this. Ventress uses the technique in The Cestus Deception, yet Obi-Wan still knows something is wrong in the cantina, because he can feel an absence.

Now, even if Sion can't rightly feel Sidious well through the Force, what stops him from just zapping him anyways? Unlike Nihilus, he does not rely on the Force to see. He can use it as a weapon and to fuel his own powers, but he is not a slave to it like Nihilus. Sion could blast Lightning at Sidious; Sidious must block or counter with his own lightning. Nihilus knows something's going on; he can then react in kind. He'll probably push in the general direction or shoot out lightning or just do some massive Force drain storm which will absorb Sidious and half of Coruscant behind him. Who cares. Either way, Sidious cannot withstand a concentrated assault by two Sith Lords of amazing power irregardless if he "goes invisible" using some insta-meditation. And if you presume that Nihilus is going to be ignorant of Sidious' presence and altogether unable to do anything but stand there and die, you're twisting the parameters of the fight and dumbing down the opposition; two very big crimes in Versus Threads.



Gameplay would be specifically those elements made and/or used for gameplay purposes. We don't count cutscenes as gameplay; Sion heals himself both during battle and during cutscenes. So unless the game designers wanted to add him healing as a gameplay mechanic and somehow he is incapable of doing this at any other time unless dramatically appropriate, it still stands to reason that Sion is not going to be just WTFpwned by Sidious in lightsaber combat while Nihilus stands there and picks his nose.



Watch the video entirely, LS. If you missed this, you must not have been listening at all. It's right in the video I linked you to.



Ah yeah, great way to over-simplify the fight, LS. Good job.

Sion's body is already beyond clinical death. His body is held together by the Force and by his own will. He has been through more pain and damage than Anakin could fathom, and Anakin was out of the fight when his arm was lopped off in AotC. Even if Anakin somehow blitzes Sion and gets in close, Sion can kill him with whatever arm is left over assuming he doesn't just kill him with his saber anyways. So unless you want to argue that Sion is a human jigsaw puzzle who will easily be knocked into pieces by Anakin "I run headlong into all my lightsaber fights and give in to my rage so I get schooled by anyone who has talent and a level head" Skywalker, stop being guilty of misrepresenting evidence and stacking the deck.



You don't get it- the idea that Sidious, when put in the same room as his two opponents, is suddenly going to say "Hey, that's Nihilus. I should use a high level of Qey'tek so I can be invisible to him" and then implement it in less time than it takes for him to get shocked/thrown/frozen/eaten/cut up/rushed is RIDICULOUS. Accept this finally.



How ridiculous, LS. I expected better of you.

"OMFG there's no real stack up type proof of Sion using his lightsaber outside of the video game which is the primary media from which he sprang.... OMFG OMFGOGOMFOMGOMFOMFOGM he can't swing his lightsaber fast enough to block attacks from Anakin and Sidious! He just can't! You have to conclusively prove to me that he's good enough to block and fight as well as any old SW character because I claim he'll be struck down in seconds!!!11 Absence of proof = my argument is unbeatable!!1111 I don't have to prove that Sidious is offensively good enough to defeat other Sith Lords of legendary status using a lightsaber!!!11 He can use all techniques flawlessly, instantly, and without prep!!1111 I am not a fanboy, I swear!!!11111.... Que Escape who will nitpick on stupid little points like the above use of "legendary", or he will argue worthless semantics and ignore any feats of Sidious' opposition because neither of us can sleep properly when our reverence for Sidious is challenged!!!1"

I mean seriously... Both of you are not stupid. And you're not lacking in SW knowledge, but both of you are tiresome when it comes to your rabid defense of this character. It's enough to make debating here at KMC unattractive because every single thread is a potential Sidious-bomb waiting to happen. I've presented my argument and I'm satisfied with its conclusions. I've provided sources, sound reasoning, and even a coherent breakdown of both sides with why I disagree with your side, what the flaws and major assumptions are, and the overall lack of moderation in your stances. I've never initially claimed that Nihilus and Sion would just bend Sidious over his office table and serve him up, but you seem to think that some liberal NEC hyperbole and your own personal opinions will stretch canon sources and showings enough for him to be better than any other Sith Lord who is lacking in showings. You know, because all the other Sith Lords should have an equal chance at airtime and source material which references their abilities.

Anyways, I'm done with this crap. You can go ahead and reply if it makes you feel better, but you and Escape are ruining these forums with your ridiculous favoritism and refusal to see Sdious as anything but fallible and mortal. At the very least I have the grace to admit when points I've made were premature, not well researched, or plain wrong; neither of you ever have had such grace concerning Sidious.

Darth Sexy
No offense Janus, but I could say the exact same thing about you and your anti Sidious bias on EOD. You are NOT an objective debater, albeit a very intelligent one. You are constantly looking for holes to distract Sidious claiming "in unverse" or whatever other justification you are making. Now, you do realize that an inferior force user's force powers won't do much if anything on a vastly superior force user? If you conveniently forgot, look to Odan Urr's "wall of Light" attack on Exar Kun, who just got force pushed. There is NOTHING indicating any force abilities of Sion could break through Sidious' attack. The ONLY attack that would work would be Nihilus. I am not going to argue Sion's invincibility because I haven't seen the video and frankly, I care very little about it at this point, but stop downplaying Sidious in a ridiculous and illogical fashion. Everyone knows me to be a Marka Ragnos/Ancient Sith fanboy but after all of this time, I am at piece with all the canon sources and with Sidious being #1. You apparently aren't and this is very evident here and EOD. I have noticed people that can't win arguments here go to EOD to rehash the same defeated points, especially against Sidious and that's fine. But if you are going to call other people biased/subjective, take a good look in the mirror and realize that at least they have direct sources for their "bias".

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Janus Marius
Then there's obviously a marked decrease in his ability to draw on the Dark Side. Thankfully for him, this hasn't hindered him from keeping his body in one-piece while elsewhere.
Yeah? Well, he says nothing about staying alive off of such Drk Side worlds and it limits him. Sure he keeps himself together as he is. When he keeps receiving more and more damage?



Dear lord, stop it. He can fight as hard as he wants, it doesn't mean other people aren't better with him at the saber. He's shown nothing to make us think he's anything special with a saber. So he'll fight back, it doesn't mean he won't be bested at sabers. Do you get that now?

Before he's killed with the other arm? Sion is 'unbeatable' or 'unkillable?' And great, he can be maimed! What if Palpatine takes his head? What'll he do with the other arm before Palpatine takes it, too? While he's, you know, defenseless? Before he's beheaded perhaps?
Wowee, the GAME states Sion is unbeatable! I guess he can kick Marka Ragnos's, Exar Kun's, Revan's and Bane's assess all at once! He's unbeatable, isn't he?


<I>
Who cares if it is fatal? Sids gets Force Drained, he gets stunned and his concentration is broken; Nihilus sees him and eats him. GG.</I>
Oh, so it's NOT fatal? Because it stops...ANYONE in the game whatsoever? Where is anyone even 'stunned?' by it? Oh, and concentration is hardly even needed to mask oneself. Learn about what you're talking about first, kthx



Right, ventress is to Palpatine and Jacen's level. And gee, I've only provided three examples of other Sith becoming totally invisible in the Force...two of which are Palpatine's students. The Yammosks notice nothing odd, or Luke, or a dozen Jedi above Zannah's head

Or, you know, block with his saber. Again, you don't need to unmask to use the Force. Sion cannot feed off someone he cannot sense. Otherwise, why couldn't he feed off Vong?

Because Nihilus is some ultra proactive leader who perceives this sort of thing!
He'll probably push in the general direction or shoot out lightning or just do some massive Force drain storm which will absorb Sidious and half of Coruscant behind him. Who cares.
I think we do, so stop throwing out base bullshit. He needs to sense someone to drain them. He needs to SENSE their connection to the Force to sever it. Why will he detect 'something's up' rather than let Sion deal with it? Or are you just totally ignoring what the characters are like?

Sion has 'amazing power' beyond his 'I can't clinically die!' gimmick? Nihilus has amazing powers when he can't use his vaunted drain? How will it be a concentrated assault when Nihilus can't even detect Palpatine?

Nice try: The game itself says Nihilus cannot or will not notice individual presence. Tobin tells the Exile she and her trio are totally beneath his notice. Nihilus will be fully content to allow Sion to go at it



Let's see it. Video. Now.

Nihilus just probably plain won't care if he can't feed there. Or if he's hungry and he can't sense Palpatine, what do you think he's going to do to Sion for sustenance?Miss the part where Tobin informs the Exile and comrades he doesn't even notice them? He only notices massive quantities of life to draw his presence unless they actively confront him.
And I'm afraid you've yet to show me...well, ANY of Sion's incredible saber abilities to indicate he can fight Palpatine not end up with Sidious playing kicking his severed head out the window



So, she does say 'His head can't even come away from his body?'
Really, now? Because otherwise, how does that answer my questions in the slightest?



As opposed to your constant "SION RUSHES EVERYONE AND THEY DIE!!!" crap?

So? This prevents it from being chopped up, how?

So? This somehow means Sion will keep going when Anakin takes his head off? So his head will stay alive. Will he bite Anakin's legs off? Does Sion holding his body together preclude a saber from cleaivng through it?

Because Sion's shown himself to be SUCH a saber prodigy!
How's he gonna kill Ani with his other arm? Reach out for his neck? Yeah, Anakin will REALLY let that happen

Strange how he's defeated, Durge, Ventress and Dooku. As well as Cin Drallig...who had both talent and a level head. And Jocasta Nu...who also had both. Somehow Sion will say something to set anakin off despite knowing nothing about him...and FYI: Anakin was quite calm against Durge. the 2000 year old guy who killed Jedi for fun.


No, you accept that Palpatine's lessers have shown the ability to use Qey'tek INSTANTLY, with no prep time. While multitasking. As in 'without having to prepare it.' As in 'while doing other things, including fighting.'
Read LOTF and then get back to me because you've no idea what you're talking about.
Get that through your head already, thank you.



Shut up and prove up. How's that for an ultimatum? Instead of capering around mocking me, for once, hold to your pwn standards and give me an ounc eof ****ing proof beyond "LOL I LOVE THE ROTTING BASTARD SO HE MUST BE A SABER GOD!"
I want PROOF!
You hear me, Janus? PROOF! Out of many other sources Sion appears in! I want something besides N-canon gameplay! Give me a cutscene, give me a source, give me SOMETHING!
Oh, you can;t? Then drop it.

Lightsnake
Give me evidence then. Can you do that?

show me where Sion is given legendary status do to saber combat. GL says you need to be Mace or Yoda to compete with Palpatine. In the complete visual guide, it's said he's mastered the forms and styles of the lightsaber. Maul in his journal notes Palpatine to be an incredible saber combatant and martial arts experts. At least my argument doesn't consist of "But they call him unbeatable!"
Yeah, he can beat Sion with a saber until you give me something with evidence to the contrary. Something with Sion being declared a saber master, showing saber skills...SOMETHING. Don't have it? Then you damn well man up and admit it


This is just you ignoring any and all evidence in favor of insults
In Bloodlines, Inferno and Tempest and Traitor such Qey'Tek or whatever the technique is used instantly. Occasionally in the heat of battle (Inferno) with no prep-time. Flawlessly. Instantly.
Yes, Janus, ONE technique shown by LUMIYA (who admits she has very little Force ability left) to be instant, without prep, as simple as anything else and that equates to all.

Do yourself a favor and quit whining when called out for proof. Can you do that? Good.
Guess what? You have none, then we can't assume a goddamn thing. The burden is on YOU to back your BS up that he's on the level of people like Yoda, Mace and Palpatine-who GL said are on the same tier.
Amazing! And where, exactly, can Sion suddenly be called a saber master now? I'm waiting. In fact? Grow up and stop acting like a total brat when I've taken care to actually show maturity here.


You know something? Grow up. Every time you're called out, you initiate a whine fest of "Oh, dear me! I'm so persecuted because I don't agree with you!"
No, that's not it at all. You know what? I've been polite to you so far. I've presented many arguments clearly, concisely and all I get is ridicule, you running out of the threat after shrieking what fanboys we are when unlike you here, I've used shown evidence and sources. You want to talk fanboyism? Then you damn well better shut up about
how awesome the Ancients are when Sion is 'unbeatable.'
In fact, the only thing tiresome here is how quick you are to complain and run off when someone manages to present an argument clearly disagreeing with you. It's time you started realizing that just MAYBE you're not always right

Yeah? You know how you've done this? Ignoring anything that might pierce your little bubble of comfort. I have responded to everything you have claimed and gotten little but ridicule and bullshit for it from someone who's claimed to champion logic. I've been polite and it's gotten me nothing in this. I've given both a logical argument with sources-something you haven't done despite repeated requests at some points.


You know something? Now you're just being plain dishonest. "WAAAH! THE ONLY THING THAT AGREES WITH YOU IS THE NEC!"
Shut up. Just shut up, Janus. I gave you MORE than one sources in the other thread-Visual Guide to prove how Palpatine was trained in the darkest secrets of the Dark side by the Ancients themselves, Heritage of the Sith-calling Palpatine the culmination of Sith power and Tradition, PER HIS ROTS SELF BOTH.
And this is what you get? No, you answer up. And you quit ****ing ignoring how the NEC displays knowledge of both your precious Marka and Nihilus. Go on, what canon sources have I stretched? This is what we call 'unsupported bullshit' and it tends to be your last resort

Is this a fun translation for 'I have no proof so I'm just going from bias and need to cover it up? Yeah, you want to argue? Have some sources. Otherwise, why not just argue Belia Darzu can kick the crap out of Naga Sadow? Makes just as much sense.

I, unlike you, can demonstrate sources and logic, even when disagreed with. At what point did I 'fail' to do that? When you didn't like it? When did integrity leave you in such a hurry? And you want to talk about favoritism? How about your adoration for the Ancients and refusal to see them as anything but fallible and mortal?
Every time you find yourself being pushed a little, you run out, crying over how mistreated you've been. It's worn thin enough. In fact, I don't really care what else Escape is like. I have not done hat you accuse me of and now it's gotten to the point of 'I can't beat you so I flame you!"
like that ridiculously immature ranting you posted in this very post

Go on, Janus. Point out where you've had 'the grace' to do this. Point out the times when I didn't. I dare you to just back yourself up.

Every time this happens: You ignore any source posted and whine about how we just use one random one plus our opinion, and a host of other things, each as ridiculous as the last. It's really enough. I hadn't posted here in a damn long time, and you're much smarter than this. I'm sorry if I sound pissed off, but I was. you can be 'done' all you like, but don't throw me a heap of insults and sour grapes BS and expect me to not get annoyed

Lightsnake
And oh, look, a new sig. You know, in between crying about how persecuted you are here, does it maybe occur to you why I've not had any of these issues with Nai, Faunus or Advent? This is just getting old how willing you are to write off being argued against as some sort of conspiracy.

A while back that could easily have been 'Ancient Sith' rather than Sidious. What would your reaction have been to that?

Janus Marius
We've already agreed more or less to disagree elsewhere and will not be continuing this debate at the current rate. It's gotten too heated.

Lightsnake
Yeah, I know...I sent the PM after I'd posted

Darth Sexy
That's wonderful Janus.. You're very subjective in your debates but you're going to publically critisize others who don't agree with you..

Gideon
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No offense Janus, but I could say the exact same thing about you and your anti Sidious bias on EOD. You are NOT an objective debater, albeit a very intelligent one. You are constantly looking for holes to distract Sidious claiming "in unverse" or whatever other justification you are making. Now, you do realize that an inferior force user's force powers won't do much if anything on a vastly superior force user? If you conveniently forgot, look to Odan Urr's "wall of Light" attack on Exar Kun, who just got force pushed. There is NOTHING indicating any force abilities of Sion could break through Sidious' attack. The ONLY attack that would work would be Nihilus. I am not going to argue Sion's invincibility because I haven't seen the video and frankly, I care very little about it at this point, but stop downplaying Sidious in a ridiculous and illogical fashion. Everyone knows me to be a Marka Ragnos/Ancient Sith fanboy but after all of this time, I am at piece with all the canon sources and with Sidious being #1. You apparently aren't and this is very evident here and EOD. I have noticed people that can't win arguments here go to EOD to rehash the same defeated points, especially against Sidious and that's fine. But if you are going to call other people biased/subjective, take a good look in the mirror and realize that at least they have direct sources for their "bias".

LMAO. Listen, Darth Sexy, I'll give you a bit of a tip now so you can spare yourself the time it takes to "reason" with Janus. Each and every f--king time he's whined and whined about our so-called "Sidious bias!", Lightsnake and I have given him an explanation. He's never done the same for us in regards to his staunch defense for the Ancient Sith. Don't expect him to start now.

Darth Sexy
I'm aware of the tendencies of EOD to knock KMC because they have nothing better to do. The sad thing is these guys are smart but are getting outdebated by these "KMC Losers" because they refuse to debate objectively, further adding to their illogical arguments. When they debate on something they're neutral about, they can be brilliant. However, I haven't seen you and lightsnake, who continue to outdebate these guys, ever knock them. No offense to them but if I was getting my ass kicked (and I have gotten it handed to me on many occasions), I wouldn't let my ego and pride get in the way. But then again, very few people have an extremely high level of self awareness.

Gideon
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I'm aware of the tendencies of EOD to knock KMC because they have nothing better to do. The sad thing is these guys are smart but are getting outdebated by these "KMC Losers" because they refuse to debate objectively, further adding to their illogical arguments. When they debate on something they're neutral about, they can be brilliant. However, I haven't seen you and lightsnake, who continue to outdebate these guys, ever knock them. No offense to them but if I was getting my ass kicked (and I have gotten it handed to me on many occasions), I wouldn't let my ego and pride get in the way. But then again, very few people have an extremely high level of self awareness.

It's merely proof that an intelligent person does not equal a skilled debater.

Darth Sexy
Indeed...

Gideon
Not that any of us can see from this end, Janus. When the metaphorical dust settles, your argument is dead. You still, to this day, have not given one remarkable glimmer of an argument to support the wacky idea that Darth Sion somehow has demonstrated any notable skill outside of his psuedoinvulnerability would allow him to register next to Anakin Skywalker; Sion's only hope is that Skywalker (equipped with peerless Force reserves) runs out of energy within twenty four hours before humiliation collapses Sion's will.

Lt. Valerian
Originally posted by Janus Marius
I expect you can formulate a good argument to substantiate these claims, right?

You have yet to do so.


And no, I don't need to, seeing that you are the only person here who can't accept Anakin's superiority over Sion. I also don't need to because other people have already "formulated a good argument to substantiate these claims", but you are in denial.

Darth Sexy
This is just what Janus was talking about dude. You don't need to claim that Janus is in denial because he doesn't agree with the majority, as this proves his point. Janus' argument holds no water which is why he's not winning..

Pyron_Knight
Ignoring the BS about Forum Wars and cockstroking...

What will Anakin do? I guess cut off Sion's limbs. The fact you can't cut them off in-game is a game mechanic and we don't see aon't see Sion pulling off mad regen skillz.

Then again Anakin won't know this immortality thing. He might just stab Sion and think it's all over, giving Sion the opening to behead the punk.

Trocity
Anakin literally wills him out of existence.

Good fight, though.

StarWarsFan77
Anakin

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