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Traya zaps Mace. He becomes a lifeless, Forceless husk.

Unless someone wants to make an assumption and change the parameters of the fight.

Pretty much per PT times for the Jedi, you need to be Yoda to take on Traya with the Force.

no vaapad guys?

It's not going to help him here. Unless Traya doesn't use the force drain at first, then she's dead, or if Mace can reach her before she does, given his speed.

But those are large ifs

Originally posted by Lightsnake
It's not going to help him here. Unless Traya doesn't use the force drain at first, then she's dead, or if Mace can reach her before she does, given his speed.

But those are large ifs What makes you think her force drain would kill him so easily? Just because it worked on three nobodies whom have yet to display anything remarkable with the force does not mean it would work on some one obviously far stronger than the three jedi masters.

The stronger the opponent, the higher their resistance and more likely that they will put up a defence which will block the attack.

I think we're confused on how this actually works: It's severing the victim from the force and life, rather than just sucking it out of them...even for Mace, that's...vicious

Yeah, and unfortunately it doesn't seem to have any prep.

Well, she's gotta raise her hand, but that's a small window. Granted, she only really uses it when she's REALLY furious at the masters, though.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I think we're confused on how this actually works: It's severing the victim from the force and life, rather than just sucking it out of them...even for Mace, that's...vicious And where was it stated that she knows a technique which severs a victim from life and the force? What indicates to you that even if she did posses such a technique, that she would be able to touch the bond of a very strong force user?

You seem to forget, the stronger the force user, the higher his defences and resistance is hence the harder to touch his force bond.


It took 3 people alone, luke leia and the unborn child to even temporarily cut palpatine off the force let alone for a single force user to destroy a force bond of a powerful force user.

Anyways that attack was a force drain,there is absolutely nothing to indicate it was even a technique which severs life and the force.

Even the weaker variant the force sever took mere moments for it to even take effect on the exile before getting interrupted by kreia and such techniques have been resisted before, i recall janus posting a scan of kun resisting a force sever by odan urr.

Originally posted by Ivalice
And where was it stated that she knows a technique which severs a victim from life and the force? What indicates to you that even if she did posses such a technique, that she would be able to touch the bond of a very strong force user?
Essentially, she used it on Vrook, Kavarr and Zez.

Naturally..but still, three at once? Powerful as Mace is, a jolt of that, even if he does survive...


You cannot seriously compare DE Palpatine to Mace Windu in Force powers, though...Palp is so far above Mace as of DE.

Different techniques. Odan tried to use the 'Wall of Light' on Kun. Different from the drain/sever, completely

I am not really trying to engage myself into a debate let alone a heated one... but let me address a few points which i do not agree with please?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Essentially, she used it on Vrook, Kavarr and Zez. I asked you to prove that it was a force sever or an ability which severs a victims connection to the force, again the attack was depicted as a mere force drain which took down 3 nobodies.

A drain attack differs from a sever technique, completely.
Originally posted by Lightsnake

Naturally..but still, three at once? Powerful as Mace is, a jolt of that, even if he does survive... 3 whom showed no sign of resistance? 3 of whom were nobodies? 3 of whom did not throw up a defence?

I might as well speculate darth zannah would PWN kreia because as an untrained child she broke the necks of two jedi's. Again even in that situation the two jedi were caught by suprise and had not thrown up any resistance or a defence.

I could simply argue that they were caught by surprise considering the fact that they drawed their lightsabers out expecting it would end up as a 3 v 1 duel.

I still recall you debating that kreia was preparing the attack when talking back in 2006 when i was still a nihilus fanboy.






Originally posted by Lightsnake

You cannot seriously compare DE Palpatine to Mace Windu in Force powers, though...Palp is so far above Mace as of DE. I was using a metaphor on how difficult it is to sever a strong force users connection let alone for one person to destroy a force bond of a powerful force(mace) user that easily.

The point is seeing maces strength in the force, i seriously doubt she could even tamper his bond(assuming she has the technique which is currently unproven) as easily as it seems.
Originally posted by Lightsnake

Different techniques. Odan tried to use the 'Wall of Light' on Kun. Different from the drain/sever, completely Do you have a scan of it? I need it to avoid confusion...

EDIT weren't you fond of saying vaapad could reflect most dark side techniques?

1. Showed no visible sign of resistence.
2. 3 Jedi masters
3. same as the first
4. Jedi reaction times.And its 'drew'.

Lightsnake, the force sever seems to just be the dark side version of the wall of light. There isn't really any difference.

I think I remember traya saying the 3 masters died because they could not live without the force, I think she said it in a way to suggest they had become to dependent on it. I will have to find a video to make sure though.

I could see Traya taking a Force-fight. But Ivalice does raise enough good points to make one question her ability to merely wave her hand and drop any Jedi Master.

they are fighting in trayus core, could the steep cliffs and sharp rocks be used to anyone's advantage?

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
1. Showed no visible sign of resistence.
The correct term would be no sign traya humper, because they drawed their lightsabers thinking the 3 of them could take her down together hence they under estimated her
Originally posted by Darth Exodus

2. 3 Jedi masters
All in but name, the 3 of them were utter weaklings in the force.

Even if mace were to go down in a force fight, it wouldn't be easy for kreia to simply "wave her hand and take him down".
Its not like mace does not have any dark side techniques of his own.

Originally posted by Ivalice
The correct term would be no sign traya humper, because they drawed their lightsabers thinking the 3 of them could take her down together hence they under estimated herThey saw an enemy walk in and freeze the Exile, then drew their lightsabers. Yeah, how ridiculous is that?
WTF is this? Three of the most powerful Jedi Masters of the era are "utter weaklings"? Is that based on anything?
Unfortunately, if Kreia was pissed off, it likely would be.
Right. So Mace Windu, a Jedi, is going to defeat Darth Traya, a powerful Sith Lord, with the Dark side. Brilliant.

Originally posted by Faunus
Right. So Mace Windu, a Jedi, is going to defeat Darth Traya, a powerful Sith Lord, with the Dark side. Brilliant.

Jedi, especially, Mace, are usually too blind to realize that if they stopped suppressing the evil inside them, the neutral Unifying Force would reflect it into that which most know as the "Dark Side" and allow them much more power without consequence. Just suppress the evil when you die, and the Force can take you to its Netherworld, instead of Chaos.

However, Mace Windu could use some of these techniques to fight Traya. I agree with Ivalice. (Note: This is becoming really scary! I'm agreeing with Ivalice more and more! What's happening to me?! )

Wow, Ivalice. You have to be the forum's Ferrous Cranus. All these people on here telling you something that's common knowledge to TSL players and you are arguing against it? The three remaining Jedi in TSL confronted the exile and easily overcame her. In the game, the exile could learn each of the highest lightsaber forms or highest force forms from each of them. They survived a purge which nearly wiped out the jedi order. I wouldn't call them 'nobodies'. Clearly you need to play the game for once and with an open mind.

It does sound rather illogical and questionable, and I would agree that Ivalice's statement is clearly exaggerated. Though, in the same token, evidence is required to prove that even these three are a match or on par with Mace Windu; that they were among the most powerful of their own era is not an indicator that this is so.

Mace Windu is pretty much unique among jedi though. Aside from prodigious upstarts like Dooku, Exar Kun, and Anakin, Mace Windu is one of the strongest jedi who didn't fall to the dark side.

Originally posted by Darth Rogers
Mace Windu is pretty much unique among jedi though. Aside from prodigious upstarts like Dooku, Exar Kun, and Anakin, Mace Windu is one of the strongest jedi who didn't fall to the dark side.

I think besides Yoda that Mace is the strongest jedi to not ever go to the darkside at some point.

Yeah, someone told me that Luke even went to the dark side after the movies. I thought that was really stupid and contradicts what they tried to establish in the movies.

Yep he turned to the dark side to try and defeat DE Sidious.

Originally posted by Gideon
It does sound rather illogical and questionable, and I would agree that Ivalice's statement is clearly exaggerated. Though, in the same token, evidence is required to prove that even these three are a match or on par with Mace Windu; that they were among the most powerful of their own era is not an indicator that this is so.Of course not, and I've never made that claim. But completely overpowering three of the most powerful Jedi of an era simultaneously is one of the greatest feats of offensive Force use we've seen in the saga, period, and Ivalice needs to stop trying to trivialize that.

It seems like she did, yeah. The Exile also notes that their corpses seem completely devoid of the Force.

Originally posted by Faunus

WTF is this? Three of the most powerful Jedi Masters of the era are "utter weaklings"? Is that based on anything?
Fine, ill admit that i had exagerrated that claim, but the fact remains that it is up to YOU to prove they were powerful considering the fact that the three of them have yet to demonstrate remarkable combat prowess on the level of mace windu.

And HOW are they "the most powerful" of their era when they have yet to accomplish anything remarkable with the force?
Originally posted by Faunus

Unfortunately, if Kreia was pissed off, it likely would be.
And that you would have to prove. Wow so because it worked on 3 masters it means it would work on some one obviously MUCH more powerful than even the three jedi masters combined.

It occurs to me that you forget the stronger the opponent, the higher his defences and resistance are. Yes, kreia will beat mace with the force but it would be no easy feat as you are trying to imply.
Originally posted by Faunus

Right. So Mace Windu, a Jedi, is going to defeat Darth Traya, a powerful Sith Lord, with the Dark side. Brilliant. And WHERE did i imply that? I merely made a claim that he has attacks of his own, i never said he would defeat traya through the force.

Your making it sound as if its ownage hence i see the need to engage in a debate.

I think that suspending hundreds of tons of rock with TK is alot more impressive than killing three jedi masters whom have yet to demonstrate any remarkable combat prowess.

Mace does have force crush in his arsenal so that may come into play.

Attaining the rank of master in an era that has the likes of Exar Kun, Revan and Nihilius in it is not nothing. They also survived the Jedi Purge despite the advantages held by their hunters. They also stunned someone as Powerful as the Exile and could teach her the highest levels of Force Mastery


I seriously doubt that.

Traya could take him down in the Force and his Vaapad and Shatterpoint would be useless against her floating lightsabers. Note also how she killed dozens of Sith without a gesture, glance or visible sign of effort. THAT'S impressive.

Wait, floating sabers? If the Exile can deal with those Mace Windu certainly can.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Attaining the rank of master in an era that has the likes of Exar Kun, Revan and Nihilius in it is not nothing. They also survived the Jedi Purge despite the advantages held by their hunters. They also stunned someone as Powerful as the Exile and could teach her the highest levels of Force Mastery
Wow they survived some ass war so it means they are gods, i guess this alone makes vader a force god seeing he tooled jedi easily whom survived order 66.

You seem to forget that it was the THREE COMBINED efforts of the masters it took to stun the exile, not individually so no, that does not count.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus

Traya could take him down in the Force and his Vaapad and Shatterpoint would be useless against her floating lightsabers. Note also how she killed dozens of Sith without a gesture, glance or visible sign of effort. THAT'S impressive. LOL and mace suspended hundreds of tons of rock and dirt, thats far more impressive that your blow up dolls
feats.
Again its not like mace can't destroy her floating lightsabers with force crush.. easily.

so it took 3 Jedi Masters to temporarily immobilize the Exile
but she's an average jedi
this forum is very strange

To quote Darth Sexy: No



Yes its obviously easy to out-force Traya, simultaniously crush the metal and crystal of three lightsabers and aviod being skewered all at the same time.
Now why DIDN'T I see that.


Escaping from clone is nothing. Escaping from Sith specially trained to hunt them isn't.
Average Jedi. Not Jedi Master's. He had to sweat against The Dark Lady(even though he can't).

Originally posted by Darth Exodus




Yes its obviously easy to out-force Traya, simultaniously crush the metal and crystal of three lightsabers and aviod being skewered all at the same time.
Now why DIDN'T I see that. It wouldn't be hard for mace to crush her sabers considering the fact that he could use the force to destroy TANKS.
Originally posted by Darth Exodus


Escaping from clone is nothing. Escaping from Sith specially trained to hunt them isn't.
More like HIDING from them and being at the right place at the right time, they were simply out of kuns' malaks and nihilus way hence they were not killed.
Originally posted by Darth Exodus

Average Jedi. Not Jedi Master's. He had to sweat against The Dark Lady(even though he can't). You seem to forget that the moment vader resorted to the force and took her seriously, she gets smacked down, Oh and she IS a jedi master Fyi darth exodick.

You too seem to forget he underestimated her hence he took a sweat.

You SERIOUSLY need to remove your dick from trayas mouth and that k2 copy from your ass

When?
If he did then, well, he didn't have to out-force someone as powerful as Traya to do it. I notice that you skipped over her feat of Sith killing, which took SKILL. And she didn't even strain, unlike Mace, who struggled against Grevious.



Well, duh. Vader is a Sith Lord and can beat pretty much everyone in his era, but she still gave him a fight which was my point. He did not 'tool her easily'

Anyway, back on topic. Traya Force-drains him and he dies.

When did Mace struggle against General Grievous at all, now? And how is destroying her sabers 'outforcing' her? She is simply controlling them. They are still vulnerable hunks of metal

Well she would try to block him. I thought that was obvious.

Has anyone ever stopped something as small as a lightsaber from being crushed?

Plus I'd imagine that would be very texing on her concentration to fight Mace through the force and levitate her lightsabers to defend against his strikes, if that makes sense.

Originally posted by Ivalice
Fine, ill admit that i had exagerrated that claim, but the fact remains that it is up to YOU to prove they were powerful considering the fact that the three of them have yet to demonstrate remarkable combat prowess on the level of mace windu.I don't have to prove anything until you substantiate the claim that three esteemed Jedi Masters and council members were "utter weaklings."

Among. Don't put words in my mouth, and don't dare to ask for proof until you provide something other than your obviously meaningless and uninformed opinion.

I've suspected it all along, but you've just confirmed it; you're an idiot. I've actually tried my best to be nice to you, but this is so stupid it's not even funny anymore. You admit that you made an exaggerated (read: moronic, unsubstantiated) claim, then reassert it and tell me to prove up, then make yet another foolish claim. I shouldn't even bother responding to this bullshit anymore.

And yet she overpowered three Jedi Masters at once. If you say Mace is more powerful than three of them "put together" again, I'm reporting you for being an idiot. Seriously.

An my point is that his offensive powers are going to do jack against Traya. Got it? Good. Unless you really think Mace is going to Force Crush her to death, don't even bother bringing this up again.

If by a debate you mean throwing out garbage claims and tossing around the burden of proof, yeah, this is one of the finest debates I've ever seen.

I don't care. Your opinion alone doesn't matter.

Mace Windu is my favorite character, so I'm not going to shortchange him. But your arguments are dumb. Period.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
To quote Darth Sexy: No

what ? Ivalice is the one who said it took 3 Jedi Masters to hold off the Exile
that shows the Exile is far more than an average Jedi

Originally posted by Faunus:
Of course not, and I've never made that claim. But completely overpowering three of the most powerful Jedi of an era simultaneously is one of the greatest feats of offensive Force use we've seen in the saga, period, and Ivalice needs to stop trying to trivialize that.



Now I'm confused.

Originally posted by Gideon
Now I'm confused.Confused about what? I'm not arguing that any of the three even approach Mace in power, I'm telling him to substantiate the claim that with their Force powers combined, all of them are still weaker than Mace.

Originally posted by Faunus
Confused about what? I'm not arguing that any of the three even approach Mace in power, I'm telling him to substantiate the claim that with their Force powers combined, all of them are still weaker than Mace.

Well, that's what I was referencing in the quoted post. Especially given how Vaapad tends to negate dark side advantages in Sith and Dark Jedi, in order for someone to claim that Traya would win, the burden of proof is not on Ivalice, but rather the ones who claimed she could.

Originally posted by Gideon
Well, that's what I was referencing in the quoted post. Especially given how Vaapad tends to negate dark side advantages in Sith and Dark Jedi, in order for someone to claim that Traya would win, the burden of proof is not on Ivalice, but rather the ones who claimed she could.

No, not really. Vaapad is never shown to just make the dark side weaker, or make those using the dark side harmless. Far from it. No, it simply allows the user to empty themselves and by doing so reflect back raw energy in the form of Sith Lightning. Nowhere in Shatterpoint does Mace Windu just make his opponents harmless or pathetic, and neither of those he faced had as much power as Traya.

So unless Mace Windu's Vaapad will make him immune to Force drain on a fatal level (unlikely) and he is of sufficient skill and power enough to absorb and deflect any and all of her force attacks (Again, unlikely. Traya is not likely to just fire off lightning at him with abandon), it stands to reason that Mace is at a disadvantage. His fighting style does not "negate" the dark side itself.

Originally posted by Faunus
I don't have to prove anything until you substantiate the claim that three esteemed Jedi Masters and council members were "utter weaklings." How about i concede that claim which you have yet to realise simply because i did not back it up?
Originally posted by Faunus

Among. Don't put words in my mouth, and don't dare to ask for proof until you provide something other than your obviously meaningless and uninformed opinion. Now because i had conceded the claim, how about you start proving up which you have yet to do?

Again, how are they among the most powerful of their era when they have yet to even demonstrate reasonable combat prowess to even put them in that category?

What feats have they accomplished? What combat prowess had they demonstrated? What even indicates they are the most powerful of their era? Hell and we hardly know shit about zez kai ell yet you made such an unsupported an absurb claim that they(the three masters) are among the most powerful of their era and when i ask you to prove it, you ask me to prove a negative when there is absolutely nothing to even indicate that zez kai ell and vrook are above average jedi let alone "most powerful AMONG their era"


Originally posted by Faunus

I've suspected it all along, but you've just confirmed it; you're an idiot. I've actually tried my best to be nice to you, but this is so stupid it's not even funny anymore. You admit that you made an exaggerated (read: moronic, unsubstantiated) claim, then reassert it and tell me to prove up, then make yet another foolish claim. I shouldn't even bother responding to this bullshit anymore. Good idea, seeing that you yourself are unable to prove that they were zeh most powerful among their era hence the need to type out and don't dare to ask for proof until you provide something other than your obviously meaningless and uninformed opinion.

Maybe your just trying to avoid the fact that there is nothing to back you up in the first place?
Originally posted by Faunus
And yet she overpowered three Jedi Masters at once.
Wow so i guess she PWNS mace. Then i guess darth zannah rips kreia to pieces EASILY because as an untrained child she broke the necks of two jedi fairly easily.

Originally posted by Faunus
If you say Mace is more powerful than three of them "put together" again, I'm reporting you for being an idiot. Seriously. Really? Could the three of them lift up hundreds of tons of rock and dirt with TK? Could the three of them destroy tanks on the battlefield?

Hell even the three of them combined failed to cut the exile off the force as quickly as nomi did to ulic so really? What the **** makes you think they can even compare to mace combat prowess?

Hell and when had they demonstrated any remarkable combat prowess?


Originally posted by Faunus
An my point is that his offensive powers are going to do jack against Traya. Got it? Good. Unless you really think Mace is going to Force Crush her to death, don't even bother bringing this up again. I simply said he had attacks of his own you idiot, i never implied that he would beat her with the force.
Originally posted by Faunus
If by a debate you mean throwing out garbage claims and tossing around the burden of proof, yeah, this is one of the finest debates I've ever seen. And the only problem is, the burden of proof DOES fall on you seeing that i conceded an unsupported claim.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
When?
] Never watched the CW cartoons?
Originally posted by Darth Exodus

If he did then, well, he didn't have to out-force someone as powerful as Traya to do it. I notice that you skipped over her feat of Sith killing, which took SKILL.
] Maybe they willingly died considering the fact that they did not draw their weapons?
Originally posted by Darth Exodus

And she didn't even strain, unlike Mace, who struggled against Grevious.
] When?

Originally posted by Darth Exodus

Well, duh. Vader is a Sith Lord and can beat pretty much everyone in his era, but she still gave him a fight which was my point. He did not 'tool her easily'
] Simply due to him not taking her seriously, and she DID get tooled when he collapsed a tree on her

As taxing as masking you force signiture, hiding you real feature and still fighting and using Force powers?


I don't recall that they even started.



Kavar demonstrated remarkable talent during the JCW. He was also thought by the mandalorians to be the best warrior of the Jedi before Revan.


I don't watch shit, I burn it.
And I'm a little old for cartoons.


No.
Just no.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus



I don't recall that they even started.
Then what the f*ck was that blue aura surrounding the exile?

Originally posted by Darth Exodus

Kavar demonstrated remarkable talent during the JCW. He was also thought by the mandalorians to be the best warrior of the Jedi before Revan. In terms of saber combat prowess yes, but please DO name that talent.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus

I don't watch shit, I burn it.
And I'm a little old for cartoons. I guess you ignore canon too for that matter.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus

No.
Just no. Prove that hey fought.

Force Stun




She walked through them and they died. It's pretty obvious what happened. It wasn't really much of a fight, but they didn't just decide to die randomly and somehow inducted brain hemorrages.



Just talent. But it was obviously war-related, not the ability to stuff 300 straws in his mouth or something.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Force Stun
You seem to be more stupid than ever, again if you actually paid any attention which you clearly did not, it wasn't a force stun.




Originally posted by Darth Exodus

She walked through them and they died. It's pretty obvious what happened. It wasn't really much of a fight, but they didn't just decide to die randomly and somehow inducted brain hemorrages. Now, state how she killed them. You seem to forget malachor V could be empowering her.


Originally posted by Darth Exodus

Just talent. But it was obviously war-related, not the ability to stuff 300 straws in his mouth or something. Quantify and elaborate on this.

1. The Jedi masters all knew the seven lightsaber fighting forms. They each have the capability to train the Exile in three of them- Ataru, Juyo, and Djem so/Shien. I don't have to point out that Juyo is a master's form and difficult to learn; far more difficult to master. It requires extensive knowledge of the other forms and Mace's superior Vaapad is really just Juyo with an added mental element. It's deadly, as its name implies. Maul uses it to own people; Sidious likely uses it to own people.

2. Kavar is called by Mandalore the "famed Jedi Guardian", and is lauded by the Mandalorians for his prowess. They were eager to fight him in battle, and respected him more than his fellow jedi. This clearly means Kavar has earned a reputation for being a damn good fighter/tactician in his era. Perhaps the best among the Jedi before Revan and Malak came on the scene. He pretty much knocks out an entire cantina full of mercenaries with a motion, a nod to his Force ability.

3. Vrook is the second-in-command of the Jedi High Council next to Vandar throughout the era, and takes over in his stead, being the spokesperson for the other Jedi and pretty much controlling the Order. He's the KotOR version of Mace, but without the uber blackness and the Vaapad saber prodigy-ness. That said, it's hard to establish his exact mastery, but he seems to lord over the other Jedi, even when Vandar was on the scene.

4. Master Zez-Kai Ell, unfortunately, can only be substantiated to be a Jedi High Council member and a master of the higher lightsaber forms. We never discover enough of his past to establish his straight dueling ability, but considering he and the other two masters here can also instruct the Exile in the higher Force meditations I would presume that all three are effectively on the highest tier a Jedi master can be in KotOR in that area too.

^ Just based on the above, you have clear evidence that these Jedi are well-learned in both lightsaber combat AND the Force. All three of them evaded and survived the Sith Purge from Revan and latter Nihilus and Sion. Kavar was noted as being martially capable beyond the Outer Rim and among the Mandalorians, who themselves did not respect the Jedi as a whole. Vrook is perhaps the second most powerful Jedi High Council Jedi after the late Vandar, and one of the eldest Jedi in the era who practices the Force. On a sidenote, although gameplay does not itself reflect canon, I personally found Vrook to be the hardest Jedi master to kill if you go straight Dark Side. He's programmed to be the strongest of the three.

Now, proving that they are top o' the line in their era? Clearly, the Sith Lords are more powerful: Revan and Malak were more than a match for any one of them. Sion killed Vash, who was a peer of theres (Though her power is not substantiated. She could be a Coleman Trebor). Nihilus killed every Jedi on Katarr, including Master Vandar, so it's safe to assume he's head and shoulders above the Jedi Masters by virtue of his nature and special powers.

So that's the upper cap. Obviously, they don't transcend any of those folks. Who's next?

Jedi Exile. Who was clearly overpowered by the Council as a whole, although it seems possible that the Exile could defeat them one-on-one. This is because the Exile could adapt their forms at a mere glance (Like some sort of Star Wars Shatterstar) and because the Exile could drain them when they got winded. So I suppose by extention of her powers, the Exile may be better than any single one of them, but combined they piss all over her.

Atris. Atris's standings aren't shown to be too impressive. She's not an absolute weakling, but she is a Jedi historian and leans more towards Force powers than anything. The Jedi Exile overcomes her in combat even when she sinks to using Dark Side powers (Which are inherently offensive and sort of like hacking), so I'm inclined to think that she's a bit mild in comparison. I would place her below the three.

Traya. Traya rapes them. It's pretty evident.

Lesser jedi and sith. Let's face it- we don't really see any lesser Jedi or Sith in this era like we do with other eras. There's no Darth Bandon, or Jedi Knight Fabio or anything. The Jedi masters are all that's left of the order. The only other comparable Force users are either superior Sith Lords, or late-in-coming padawans. So it's actually pretty hard to say they're definitively top of the list when there's no way to evaluate the middle or bottom.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
1. The Jedi masters all knew the seven lightsaber fighting forms. They each have the capability to train the Exile in three of them- Ataru, Juyo, and Djem so/Shien. I don't have to point out that Juyo is a master's form and difficult to learn; far more difficult to master. It requires extensive knowledge of the other forms and Mace's superior Vaapad is really just Juyo with an added mental element. It's deadly, as its name implies. Maul uses it to own people; Sidious likely uses it to own people.

2. Kavar is called by Mandalore the "famed Jedi Guardian", and is lauded by the Mandalorians for his prowess. They were eager to fight him in battle, and respected him more than his fellow jedi. This clearly means Kavar has earned a reputation for being a damn good fighter/tactician in his era. Perhaps the best among the Jedi before Revan and Malak came on the scene. He pretty much knocks out an entire cantina full of mercenaries with a motion, a nod to his Force ability.

3. Vrook is the second-in-command of the Jedi High Council next to Vandar throughout the era, and takes over in his stead, being the spokesperson for the other Jedi and pretty much controlling the Order. He's the KotOR version of Mace, but without the uber blackness and the Vaapad saber prodigy-ness. That said, it's hard to establish his exact mastery, but he seems to lord over the other Jedi, even when Vandar was on the scene.

4. Master Zez-Kai Ell, unfortunately, can only be substantiated to be a Jedi High Council member and a master of the higher lightsaber forms. We never discover enough of his past to establish his straight dueling ability, but considering he and the other two masters here can also instruct the Exile in the higher Force meditations I would presume that all three are effectively on the highest tier a Jedi master can be in KotOR in that area too.

^ Just based on the above, you have clear evidence that these Jedi are well-learned in both lightsaber combat AND the Force. All three of them evaded and survived the Sith Purge from Revan and latter Nihilus and Sion. Kavar was noted as being martially capable beyond the Outer Rim and among the Mandalorians, who themselves did not respect the Jedi as a whole. Vrook is perhaps the second most powerful Jedi High Council Jedi after the late Vandar, and one of the eldest Jedi in the era who practices the Force. On a sidenote, although gameplay does not itself reflect canon, I personally found Vrook to be the hardest Jedi master to kill if you go straight Dark Side. He's programmed to be the strongest of the three.

Now, proving that they are top o' the line in their era? Clearly, the Sith Lords are more powerful: Revan and Malak were more than a match for any one of them. Sion killed Vash, who was a peer of theres (Though her power is not substantiated. She could be a Coleman Trebor). Nihilus killed every Jedi on Katarr, including Master Vandar, so it's safe to assume he's head and shoulders above the Jedi Masters by virtue of his nature and special powers.

So that's the upper cap. Obviously, they don't transcend any of those folks. Who's next?

Jedi Exile. Who was clearly overpowered by the Council as a whole, although it seems possible that the Exile could defeat them one-on-one. This is because the Exile could adapt their forms at a mere glance (Like some sort of Star Wars Shatterstar) and because the Exile could drain them when they got winded. So I suppose by extention of her powers, the Exile may be better than any single one of them, but combined they piss all over her.

Atris. Atris's standings aren't shown to be too impressive. She's not an absolute weakling, but she is a Jedi historian and leans more towards Force powers than anything. The Jedi Exile overcomes her in combat even when she sinks to using Dark Side powers (Which are inherently offensive and sort of like hacking), so I'm inclined to think that she's a bit mild in comparison. I would place her below the three.

Traya. Traya rapes them. It's pretty evident.

Lesser jedi and sith. Let's face it- we don't really see any lesser Jedi or Sith in this era like we do with other eras. There's no Darth Bandon, or Jedi Knight Fabio or anything. The Jedi masters are all that's left of the order. The only other comparable Force users are either superior Sith Lords, or late-in-coming padawans. So it's actually pretty hard to say they're definitively top of the list when there's no way to evaluate the middle or bottom. I'll concede then..

Originally posted by Janus Marius
No, not really. Vaapad is never shown to just make the dark side weaker, or make those using the dark side harmless. Far from it. No, it simply allows the user to empty themselves and by doing so reflect back raw energy in the form of Sith Lightning. Nowhere in Shatterpoint does Mace Windu just make his opponents harmless or pathetic, and neither of those he faced had as much power as Traya.

No one claimed that Vaapad "makes the dark side weaker" or "those using the dark side harmless", Janus. The claim was that Vaapad negates dark side advantages, which -- according to the RotS novelization -- it damn well does; Palpatine initially held the advantage, he was faster and more ferocious than Mace (hence the three dead Jedi Masters and why Mace -- a startlingly aggressive fighter -- was put on the defensive for the first portion of the lightsaber duel). Only once he submerged himself in Vaapad did Palpatine and himself reach an "impasse... which might have gone on forever if Vaapad were Mace's only gift" (it then goes on to cite the shatterpoint charism). The aforementioned reflection of lightning is but one of the examples of Vaapad's superconducting loop.



No one said it "negated" the dark side itself, Janus, and I would recommend a career as a political spin doctor; especially when one considers the remarkable rate of failure they've had thus far, I'm sure you'd be welcomed with open arms. Mace is at a disadvantage in the Force, but no proof has been offered that suggests that she could somehow drain him, as it has not been even suggested that the three masters she killed compare to Windu, even collectively. Windu was at a disadvantage with Sidious in the Force as well, yet he still managed to defeat him.

One thing I see here, however: Traya does not use the drain/sever ability except in the one instance...in that she was incredibly furious in the context. It might stand to reason she wouldn't use it against a Jedi who hadn't, in her eyes, committed such a grievous sin as trying that with the Exile.

Again guys, trayus core has cliffs and sharp rocks, and mace seems to like using the force on sharp rocks and metals

Escape:

Please feel free to read the excerpts from the RotS novelisation and point out to me where your idea that "Vaapad negates dark side advantages" is conclusively proven with the source text. Feel free to scan or type out and cite any additional text from the source if you'd like...

P. 329

Vaapad is as aggressive and powerful as its namesake, but its power comes at great risk: immersion in Vaapad opens the gates that restrain one's inner darkness. To use Vaapad, a Jedi must allow himself to enjoy the fight; he must give himself over to the thrill of battle. The rush of winning. Vaapad is a path that leads through the penumbra of the dark side.

Mace Windu created this style, and he was its only living master.




P. 330

There was a time when Mace Windu had feared the power of the dark; there was a time when he had feared the darkness in himself. But the Clone Wars had given him a gift of understanding: on a world called Haruun Kal, he had faced his darkness and had learned that the power of darkness is not to be feared.

He had learned that it is fear which gives the darkness power.

He was not afraid. The darkness had no power over him. But-

Neither did he have power over it.

Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow ; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue.

Impasse.

It appears so far that Mace Windu's Vaapad gives him power over himself and making sure the Dark Side does not claim him. Nowhere is it shown or stated that he is able to simply defuse all Force attacks or make Sith Lords and Ladies saber-fodder.

P. 332Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind: a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him.

And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source.

This is conclusive; Vaapad allowed Mace Windu to absorb some of the power of the Sith Lightning and redirect it back at Sidious easier. In the movie (Read: true canon) he stuggled with it, but the book implies that he had no real difficulties. Likewise, nothing other than the lightning is noted as being reflected in this case, so Occam's Razor demands that we only consider Mace able to reflect the Sith Lightning, unless of course you are willing to ante up with a source which explicitly says otherwise and is credible or not taken out of context. Feel free to do so.

LS:



You're violating Occam's Razor as well to give Mace a fighting chance. We can see that Traya has the ability to zap three Jedi masters dead (In the cut content, which is unfortunately not considered canon, she toys with them beforehand and they are helpless) within seconds. Her state of mind is not explictly shown to be the cause of this (Traya does not say, become unable to do it later against the Sith assassins), and all we can prove and argue is that she does have the ability and since she does have it and there's no real PIS explicitly showing it being a product of circumstance or unusual factors, we must consider it to be part of her Force attack tool-kit. Again, Occam's Razor.

You forget, however, that Traya's line prior to using her attack is to declare that they will now see the galaxy 'through the eyes of the Exile.' This, along with her fury at the preceding events does show something, and what Traya does, exactly to the Sith Assassins is left unclear.
As we know from previously in the game, such disconnection is usually fatal given Jedi reliance on the Force. The only other option here, however, is seen in the Republic: Siege of Saleucami arc when such severance from the Force can be done by the PT Jedi (at least the higher up masters), with voluntary control, whereas reconnecting oneself is just as voluntary.

Recall, Traya's attack is not a 'drain' per se, as if she is literally sucking the force/life out of them to feed herself. Rather, her attack severs them from the Force and they are unable to handle 'seeing the galaxy through the eyes of the Exile.'

Without the Force, Mace would definately lose though.

Indeed. However, the prequel ability to reconnect oneself is a factor. The Exile's existence demonstrates such

I doubt that Mace could have done what the Exile did

It might help if the opposition could somehow prove or provide evidence suggesting that, simply because Traya can dismantle those three Jedi Masters, she can do the same to Mace. I mean, hell, I can apply that logic to Sidious. He obliterated three of the Order's finest. I guess he can pwn any individual Jedi, since he can do the same to a group.

LS:



So by sucking the life/force out of them and feeding herself they are not drained? I don't get that logic at all.

And they were severed from the Force and left dead, lifeless husks. So obviously if three rather competent and aged Jedi Masters can't withstand a sudden ripping of the Force (Even if I were to accept your idea that they were just wusses and couldn't handle it) I don't see the proof that Mace Windu can.

She rips the Force from him. He lives, probably because he's Sammy. She then proceeds to Force crush him to death because he has no force to counter with. GG.

Escape:



You're really grabbing at straws now. I'm glad that you didn't try to argue in the face of the passages though. Opting to admit that your Vaapad stance was incorrect is the first step in maturing as a debator.

Now, let's go ahead and compare the two scenarios you're making to be equal:

Darth Traya is a formidable Sith Lady who has shown the ability to kill a group of Sith assassins in a heartbeat, as well as make three powerful* jedi masters her *****. She pushes Kavar back with ease and then kills the trio in the confrontation with as much effort as it takes me to type this. Actually, far less. In the cut content, she plays with them first, force crushing them, choking them, and they're absolutely helpless to resist. To put this into perspective, this would be like Sidious or Dooku force choking and force maiming Mace, Ki-Adi-Mundi, and Obi-Wan without any apparent effort all at the same time. Or just killing them in a heartbeat.

(* this is tagged so you can attack it without restraint instead of logically refuting the argument as a whole)

So it's already apparent that Traya's force-feat has not been replicated by her PT competition. Not even slightly.

Let's look at your suggestion:

Sidious got the one-up on three Jedi masters and killed them in a melee. Already, it's a different animal. Not all melee battles are going to be exactly the same, but direct and seemingly unblockable force attacks are pretty straightforward. Let's ignore the hotly-debated and extremely questionable idea of those three being "the order's finest" (As I seem to recall someone else noting that it's Obi-Wan's own opinion where that is concerned) and look at the specifics of the canon source of the fight- Sidious stands up, pulls his lightsaber, ignites it. Already the clock is running at ten plus seconds. He then screams like a banshee from hell, jumps up in the air and psycho-crushes his way towards the enemy, who fails to react. They simply don't do anything. They, the supposed creme de la creme of the PT Order, sit there and pull a stupid face. Sidious then casually leans in and stabs one, slashes another without any apparent superior skill or effort, and then Kit Fisto gets owned because he couldn't provide an adequate defense in a relatively mild exchange of blows.

So yeah, by extension of this logic, the entire PT era Jedi suck donkey balls because their finest were wiped about without adequately defending themselves against the most straight-forward assault in the entire series, save for Luke swinging his lightsaber like a baseball bat at Vader. Unless the PT era Jedi are reknown chess players, this kind of behavior only reinforces how pathetic they were in saber combat. Anakin and Obi-Wan, who are supposively their peers, defend themselves against far more and show far more actual skill and incredible reflexes. Even TPM Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan show superior lightsaber capability.

Again, let's recap and compare:

Traya has shown an ability to dominate three powerful Jedi masters who have shown mastery of the lightsaber forms and higher force forms without any effort whatsoever.

vs.

Sidious has shown the ability to get the jump on three Jedi masters who have the attention span of Boo Radley and the tight, amazing defense of a youngling holding a baton.

Not comparable. Try again.

Oh, how cute. Janus Marius -- the onetime legendary proponent of Marka Ragnos's ability to waltz through a gauntlet with the likes of Exar Kun, Luke Skywalker, and Darth Sidious without "requiring full use of his limbs" and Count Dooku's "obvious superiority" over Darth Sidious -- is going to lecture someone about an incorrect stance? Really, Janus, you don't want to take us down this avenue; KMC is full of dozens upon dozens of threads where you made yourself look like a complete ass. You'd be laughed off here and back to your dying EoD in a matter of minutes. As I've explained to you via PM (the one that I sent to you a few days ago, to which you haven't responded), you've went from screaming from the virtual rooftops how "Ragnos is god!!1!" and flaming those who disagree to being knocked on your ass so far that even the most biased Ancient Sith fanboys either disagree (Darth Sexy here) or now want them kept out of the versus matches alltogether because they can't prove their point (Deception on EoD). How far you've fallen, Janus. And just when I think you've hit rock bottom, you manage to find a lower place.



Now, despite your laughable dabbles in political wordplay, no one here has argued that Vaapad "negates the dark side itself!!1!one!1!", but this passage makes it clear, that once Windu delved deep within Vaapad, he was able to draw upon the dark side's strengths and use them to match the one making use of them (Sidious). That is why Sidious was able to dismantle the other three swordsman, despite Mace's intervention, and press Mace (a ruthlessly offensive fighter) on the defensive. He was faster and more agile and only when Mace summoned Vaapad into what the omniscient narrator described as "Vaapad's ultimate test" did Windu establish a parity with the Sith Lord.

As for the rest, you still haven't proven that those three Jedi Masters -- even united -- compare to Windu. Until you do, I don't have to do a damn thing. And slapping on the label of "powerful" doesn't mean or substantiate a damn thing. You made the claim. The burden of proof is on you, Janus.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
LS:



So by sucking the life/force out of them and feeding herself they are not drained? I don't get that logic at all.
No, I'm saying she is precisely not sucking it out of them. They are severed, not drained.

I'm not saying they were anything of the sort, Janus. The difference is between the generations-that Mace's generation, thanks to the rebuilding, has learned how to function without the Force....such a sudden severance killed the trio because they could not live without the Force. The same is untrue for the PT Jedi.


This does, however, assume Traya will immediately retaliate before Mace can reconnect him. That he's able to survive the severance would shock her severance. With the Exile's sole exception, Traya expects Jedi to need the Force to live.

Escape:

You and I cannot ever begin to understand each other, so I'll leave you and your girlfriend DS to your own opinions.

LS:



Ah, gotcha. However, the animation is exactly the same as the Force Drain ability, and Nihilus, who feeds on the Force, uses the exact same animation too. I would put forth that since the only media source depicts Force Drain and Traya's attack as exactly the same, we must conclude that hers is a higher level Force drain which could potentially kill Jedi masters of some prestige.



Not to dismiss the idea out of hand, but can you provide me with a source that PT era Jedi can survive Force Drains or Force Sever abilities?



The Force itself is tied to life though. When Force drain abilities or like abilities were employed by Exar Kun and Sidous, they invariably killed the targets. In any case, I doubt that if Traya's initial attack is successful enough to rip the force from him, but not enough to kill him, that he is in any way, shape, or form to counter.

Well, I can't speak for your end, but I understand you just fine. Let us speak in facts: you are the leader of a group who used to practically rule these particular forums, preaching unprovable dogma that you expected all to adhere to, be it "Marka Ragnos is all powerful!!1!" or "Sidious sux!!1!" or "Dooku is king of teh peetee!!11!" or "The Rakatta will pwnz0rs the Empire!!11!!!11!" and so on, and you would flame or attack anyone who disagreed with you (one of you even suggested that Lightsnake should opt for suicide). Then along comes Lightsnake, who begins to change people's opinions, mine being one of them. We amass a shitload of proof and direct statements and all of a sudden, you're not unopposed anymore. The tides shift, our side gets more support, so you retreat to EoD, whereupon you -- having full administrative powers -- are now able to completely exercise dominion over everyone who does not agree. Hell, two of your most active members -- Lightsnake and Darth Sexy -- are frequently ridiculed. You accuse them of trolling and mock them constantly, even though IKC and others are equally guilty of such behavior (one of the reasons I was driven out, you tried to crucify me), but since they're in your little group, they get immunity. Jesus, Janus, lol many members of EoD have commented to me how your very presence makes the place like hell; they think you're a failed administrator. One of the reasons, I'm sure, why the place hasn't grown or progressed. Then, when you return here, you play the victim card. You pretend that Lightsnake and I run around and proclaim Sidious to be invincible, even though we've argued to the contrary, and I once told you that I went out of my way to reiterate that he wasn't (can you say the same about Ragnos?). And every time you ask us "why?", we answer. When the question about Ragnos is posed to you, you conveniently decide not to answer. Hell, you're all up for debating and jabbing up until now.

Please. We both know who's the sham around here. As always, the invitation for a discussion is on the table, and I'll be more than happy to listen and to chat with you so that we can get a better understanding of one another. You've always declined.

Pseudointellectuals have too much time on their hands.. Why don't you go back to debating "What is reality?"

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Pseudointellectuals have too much time on their hands.. Why don't you go back to debating "What is reality?"

Perhaps. I am disappointed that Janus's ability to conjure skillfully sarcastic comments seems to be fading with his ability to debate in a competent fashion; "girlfriend"? WTF? I'm expecting a remark about cooties, next.

To be fair, Darth Sexy, I don't see why you return to EoD, since you all don't seem to be particularly fond of one another. Especially after this particularly brutal round.

Eh right now I only post when somebody has a computer problem. Other than that, I care nothing for philosophical debates that ultimately lead nowhere.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Escape:

You and I cannot ever begin to understand each other, so I'll leave you and your girlfriend DS to your own opinions.

LS:



Ah, gotcha. However, the animation is exactly the same as the Force Drain ability, and Nihilus, who feeds on the Force, uses the exact same animation too. I would put forth that since the only media source depicts Force Drain and Traya's attack as exactly the same, we must conclude that hers is a higher level Force drain which could potentially kill Jedi masters of some prestige.
Well, gameplay animation isn't exactly what I'd call accurate, especially not in an incredibly rushed game.

As for Nihilus...it's the same principle. Nihilus doesn't 'suck' the Force out...he severs life from the force and gains sustenance from the death created.



The Siege of Saleucami arc in the Republic comic series is the start (For the severance thing...we know that PT Jedi-at least the higher ups- can sever and reconnect)
It's not unthinkable that, in the years following the rebuilding, the Exile's companions, who Traya named as the future of the Order, would have made sure to compensate for bthe weaknesses of their fellows



Bit different...Palpatine, it is said, used his in moderation on purpose as not to destroy his supply completely. As for Kun, it's essentially the Massassi giving themselves to him in the form of a ritual. Not necessary sustenance...and rather than severing, or feeding on the force, Kun drained their life forces. Remember, Traya's entire goal was to see life without the Force. The Vong, for a while, caused a debate on this

Well, Mace has a hell of endurance. If he can survive her initial attack, Traya might very well be surprised enough and Mace would be capable of reconnecting. Likewise, Mace's defensive capabilities might well account for Traya's other abilities.

Now, Nai:

If this is the case, Yoda as the most powerful PT Jedi, Luke as the most powerful of all time, Bane as the most powerful Sith of the Brotherhood and Exar as the most powerful of the Brotherhood of Sith could well fall under scrutiny as well. Just because something may change in the future doesn't mean it isn't clear cut as of now.
While it might be up for debate, this hardly means the debate won't be a clear cut one.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
The Siege of Saleucami arc in the Republic comic series is the start (For the severance thing...we know that PT Jedi-at least the higher ups- can sever and reconnect)

One thing Lightsnake, you're referring to how Tholme uses the force to trick Quinlan into thinking he was dead, right? If that's the case, then cutting himself from the Force wouldn't seem to make much sense, seeing as the Force runs through all matter (as stated by Yoda in ESB), living or dead, sentient by nature or otherwise. The force would still be a part of his body if he were to have actually died. He most likely went into a trance or something just as Kreia does at the beginning of KotOR2. I'm pretty certain he couldn't actually completely disconnect himself from the Force.

You're mistaken. It actually says he severed himself from the force temporarily.

Which there would have been no purpose in doing in the situation... I'm pretty sure no such thing is said, though I could be wrong.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Now, Nai:

If this is the case, Yoda as the most powerful PT Jedi, Luke as the most powerful of all time, Bane as the most powerful Sith of the Brotherhood and Exar as the most powerful of the Brotherhood of Sith could well fall under scrutiny as well. Just because something may change in the future doesn't mean it isn't clear cut as of now.
While it might be up for debate, this hardly means the debate won't be a clear cut one.

Erm.
First Lightsnake: You're comparing apples to oranges here. Comparing people that lived in one era is far less difficult than comparing people that lived in different eras.

For example Yoda being the most powerful PT Jedi comes from the fact that even his second in command (Mace) puts himself far below Yoda, while even his opponents (Dooku, Sidious) admit that they were inferior to him (Dooku at times) or were partially lucky in surving a confrontation with him (Sidious to a certain extend in RoDV). There's simply no room to argue for another being there. The same is the case with the other examples you listed. Who should be more powerful than Kun or Bane in their respective time/organisation?

Comparing people from different times is an entire different story. How powerful is Ragnos or Kun compared to Revan or Sidious? Question that get especially tricky when all you have on certain characters are third-party accounts of their power.

Second: Given that. How do you want to have debates "clear cut" that have comparisons like that involved? Hell. The SW universe is build to generate ambigious statements because it should be able to satisfy every fan. That means you need to satisfy the fans of the Ancient Sith, the KotoR Sith and the new Sith (Sidious) as well. "Path of Destruction" is the perfect example for that mechanism. You Ancient Sith teachings (Ancient Sith) given to Revan (KotoR) and handed down to Bane who used it to built his Ro2-Order which culminated in Sidious (movie / Sidious fans).

Yet I could argue that the Ancients must be the most powerful (because the new more than Revan and in turn Bane and with him Sidious). Or I could state that Revan was the most powerful (because he took all from the Ancients, had own stuff, yet didn't give all to Bane and therefore Sidious). Or I could come up with the idea that Sidious is the most powerful because he had all the Ancients had + stuff from Revan + stuff added in the 1000 years from Bane to him. All works perfectly fine because the interpretation is just base on the opinion the reader has. There aren't absolutes in the SW universe. Hence you could even argue that Kyle Katarn is the most powerful Jedi ever - because he absorbed all that nice power from the Valley of the Jedi on top of his already formidable potential - yet he just limits himself through his mindset. You could do that if you were a fan of Kyle Katarn - no problemo.

In the same manner you can question every single source. Really. LFL now even installs fictional characters writing the "Essential Guides" from an in universe perspective, so that they can blame mistakes on "shoddy journalism" but, I think, even moreso to make absolute statements impossible, comparing the power of individuals. On a literary level you will find that almost every quote regarding power of characters is ambigious. An example?

"When the Sith finally emerged from a thousand years of watching and waiting, they numbered-in accordance with the tradition set down by Darth Bane only two. The most powerful of these was Darth Sidious, an ice-cold, diabolically calculating genius equipped with the
strength of the dark side of the Force, as well as an enormous wealth of Sith artifacts, equipment, and knowledge. Perhaps the best weapon in his arsenal was his keen understanding of galactic politics, and his
seemingly unlimited ability to engineer situations that ultimately served to further empower the Sith."

So. Sidious is "the most powerful of them"? Them being who? The two Sith that did return into the public? The strongest of all Sith in the past 1000 years (Bane's order)? And the "powerful" refers to what kind of power? His force abilities? Or his political power given that his understanding of galactic politics is sited as "the best weapon in his arsenal"? You think you can answer that question beyond doubt when even Leland Chee says this can't be done? I doubt that.

And because of all that there is no "clear cut" and almost nothing that can't be argued. If something exists it's general agreements among the debaters in this forum about certain topics. But that agreements are not unquestionable. I'm afraid.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Erm.
First Lightsnake: You're comparing apples to oranges here. Comparing people that lived in one era is far less difficult than comparing people that lived in different eras.

For example Yoda being the most powerful PT Jedi comes from the fact that even his second in command (Mace) puts himself far below Yoda, while even his opponents (Dooku, Sidious) admit that they were inferior to him (Dooku at times) or were partially lucky in surving a confrontation with him (Sidious to a certain extend in RoDV). There's simply no room to argue for another being there. The same is the case with the other examples you listed. Who should be more powerful than Kun or Bane in their respective time/organisation?

Comparing people from different times is an entire different story. How powerful is Ragnos or Kun compared to Revan or Sidious? Question that get especially tricky when all you have on certain characters are third-party accounts of their power.

Second: Given that. How do you want to have debates "clear cut" that have comparisons like that involved? Hell. The SW universe is build to generate ambigious statements because it should be able to satisfy every fan. That means you need to satisfy the fans of the Ancient Sith, the KotoR Sith and the new Sith (Sidious) as well. "Path of Destruction" is the perfect example for that mechanism. You Ancient Sith teachings (Ancient Sith) given to Revan (KotoR) and handed down to Bane who used it to built his Ro2-Order which culminated in Sidious (movie / Sidious fans).

Yet I could argue that the Ancients must be the most powerful (because the new more than Revan and in turn Bane and with him Sidious). Or I could state that Revan was the most powerful (because he took all from the Ancients, had own stuff, yet didn't give all to Bane and therefore Sidious). Or I could come up with the idea that Sidious is the most powerful because he had all the Ancients had + stuff from Revan + stuff added in the 1000 years from Bane to him. All works perfectly fine because the interpretation is just base on the opinion the reader has. There aren't absolutes in the SW universe. Hence you could even argue that Kyle Katarn is the most powerful Jedi ever - because he absorbed all that nice power from the Valley of the Jedi on top of his already formidable potential - yet he just limits himself through his mindset. You could do that if you were a fan of Kyle Katarn - no problemo.

In the same manner you can question every single source. Really. LFL now even installs fictional characters writing the "Essential Guides" from an in universe perspective, so that they can blame mistakes on "shoddy journalism" but, I think, even moreso to make absolute statements impossible, comparing the power of individuals. On a literary level you will find that almost every quote regarding power of characters is ambigious. An example?

"When the Sith finally emerged from a thousand years of watching and waiting, they numbered-in accordance with the tradition set down by Darth Bane only two. The most powerful of these was Darth Sidious, an ice-cold, diabolically calculating genius equipped with the
strength of the dark side of the Force, as well as an enormous wealth of Sith artifacts, equipment, and knowledge. Perhaps the best weapon in his arsenal was his keen understanding of galactic politics, and his
seemingly unlimited ability to engineer situations that ultimately served to further empower the Sith."

So. Sidious is "the most powerful of them"? Them being who? The two Sith that did return into the public? The strongest of all Sith in the past 1000 years (Bane's order)? And the "powerful" refers to what kind of power? His force abilities? Or his political power given that his understanding of galactic politics is sited as "the best weapon in his arsenal"? You think you can answer that question beyond doubt when even Leland Chee says this can't be done? I doubt that.

And because of all that there is no "clear cut" and almost nothing that can't be argued. If something exists it's general agreements among the debaters in this forum about certain topics. But that agreements are not unquestionable. I'm afraid.

You can't just sit there and call 10+ sources ambiguous because you don't agree. Some are in universe, others are not, but there is more than adequate proof concerning Sidious being #1. And if you DO ignore these quotes in favor of Sidious, then realize the one that plays the most important role in determining the best. And that quote is from Dark Empire Sourcebook, where the ANCIENT SITH called Sidious the greatest of them all, and the most powerful of them all, so there is NO basis on arguing that any ancient sith is above Sidious.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You can't just sit there and call 10+ sources ambiguous because you don't agree. Some are in universe, others are not, but there is more than adequate proof concerning Sidious being #1. And if you DO ignore these quotes in favor of Sidious, then realize the one that plays the most important role in determining the best. And that quote is from Dark Empire Sourcebook, where the ANCIENT SITH called Sidious the greatest of them all, and the most powerful of them all, so there is NO basis on arguing that any ancient sith is above Sidious.

Apparently, DS, you don't understand. I don't question the validity of source because I don't agree with what is said in them. I generally question the validity of sources as "absolute proof" for a certain opinion about a fictional universe.

And I think you refer to the Empire's End comic and not the DE Sourcebook (which doesn't have any articles talking about persons as far as I remember). And what do the Sith say?

Sidious: "If you will not heal this clone, then help me to find the Jedi Children - so that I m ay live. I command you."

Reaction:
Sith1: "How can one who has ruled only a few decades command those who held dominion for centuries?"
Sith2: "He long ago gave up everything...to the Dark Side of the force. I say let him have what he wants."

They admit that Sidious is superior to them? Where exactly? The first Sith replying to his command even questions his authority. Then the second just says that they should grant him what he wants because he had given up anything to the Dark Side of the force. Nothing about Sidious being superior to them here.
And even if there should be a quote saying so (I don't know where you got that from) it would only apply for the Sith Lords whose spirits were on Korriban at that point in time. Which would mean that every Sith Lord already gone to the netherworld at the force at that time (most of them, especially Ragnos) or those that didn't die on Korriban (Kun, Sadow, most likely Revan) would be excluded anyways.

So? Any other sources to list? Like the DSSB (qoute in it called ambigious by Leland Chee himself - explained in my last posting), the New Essential Guide (written by fallible in-universe historian) or other sources that can be dismantled in the same manner, since the people responsible for the SW:EU don't deal in absolutes? Boring.

let me find my copy of the sourcebook and I will get back to you but it goes something like "He gave up everything to the Dark Side long ago. He has become the greatest who ever lived. He is the strongest who ever lived. I say we give what he wishes"
Then you have "Palpatine has risen from the dead. The most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived had returned."

I also got this from someone here a while back..
Star Wars Insider, Kevin J. Anderson, upon asked if he ever intended his Sith to be stronger than the OT sith: "No. Exar Kun, Naga Sadow and the others are on a firmly lower tier than Emperor Palpatine."

In the other thread Escape posts various quotes about Sidious being #1. Furthermore Ragnos was usually the spokesman for the ancient sith, unless you think some OTHER sith is holding that oracle speaking to Palpatine. Personally they completely changed the face of the ancient sith from DE but I guess those little plotholes are still canon.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I also got this from someone here a while back..
Star Wars Insider, Kevin J. Anderson, upon asked if he ever intended his Sith to be stronger than the OT sith: "No. Exar Kun, Naga Sadow and the others are on a firmly lower tier than Emperor Palpatine."

Well, you'd better give it back because it's obviously bullshit.

No, Lightsnake is absolutely correct. If one wishes to question the hierarchies (which, by the way, LFL most certainly makes), then they all come under scrutiny. Ragnos is no longer the most powerful of the Ancient Sith, Yoda the most powerful Jedi prior to Luke, Revan the most powerful of his era, Bane the most powerful of the Brotherhood of Darkness, and Sidious as the most powerful of Bane's Order. You don't get to choose, Nai, to facilitate ascensions of characters you like and stop the ones that you don't.



The EU does deal in absolutes, Chee's statement to the contrary doesn't nullify the statements made in the various material where one person is proclaimed "the most powerful" of an era, group, order, or empire. Hell, the statement "only the Sith deal in absolutes" is ridiculous beyond imagination since it is also an absolute statement. Contradictions abound. And given that you yourself have labelled Sidious as "the most powerful in history" seems to suggest that these flawed quotes and statements have convinced you.

I'd also like to see where Sidious admitted his inferiority to Yoda. Page number, if possible.

Originally posted by Gideon
No, Lightsnake is absolutely correct. If one wishes to question the hierarchies (which, by the way, LFL most certainly makes), then they all come under scrutiny. Ragnos is no longer the most powerful of the Ancient Sith, Yoda the most powerful Jedi prior to Luke, Revan the most powerful of his era, Bane the most powerful of the Brotherhood of Darkness, and Sidious as the most powerful of Bane's Order. You don't get to choose, Nai, to facilitate ascensions of characters you like and stop the ones that you don't.

Haha, Gideon.
You call that an argument? I hope not. Of course you can question all hierarchies (did I say anything against that by the way? You may want to read what you quote before replying). I simply stated that in some cases it, quite frankly, doesn't make much sense. You could question that Kun is the superior Sith of his time. I'd love to see you making a case for...erm...what other character exactly? Oh.




Wow. Have a look, people. When the statements of LFL officials don't match Gideons opinion he starts questioning them. When they do fit his views he usually uses them as absolute proof. Do I see a double-standard there, Escape? Is that your "objective view" on certain topics? Cute.

And Escape. I explained my general approach to debates, strongly linked to my former user title "Advocatus Diaboli", twice to you. Do I have to do it again? I personally consider this a waste of time since you're apparently still not able to get it. But let me put it like that: Even though I might state something or use it as argument, that doesn't mean the point actually fits my personal opinion. I'm not as obsessed with convincing people that I'm absolutely right with what I say like...errr...other people here.



Excuse me, Gideon. If you refuse to read, why do you post? I didn't say that Sidious admitted inferiority to Yoda. I said he had some problems with the small fellow. Do you want to argue that? In this case I would have to nail a copy of the RotS DVD on your forehead.

The RoDV related thing I was referring too was when Sidious tells Anakin that he lost to Obi-Wan on Mustafar because the Jedi Master did focus on nothing else but doing the necessary - killing Vader and that they "could have lost everything" if the other Jedi would have done the same. (Something like that - don't have my copy here atm - NOT that this had anything to do with the debate at all *shrugs*).

"I wasn't strong enough to defeat Obiwan."
"No you weren't, so just imagine what Yoda would have done to you."

Originally posted by Borbarad
Haha, Gideon.
You call that an argument? I hope not. Of course you can question all hierarchies (did I say anything against that by the way? You may want to read what you quote before replying). I simply stated that in some cases it, quite frankly, doesn't make much sense. You could question that Kun is the superior Sith of his time. I'd love to see you making a case for...erm...what other character exactly? Oh.
It depends on how you define 'his time,' with people like Revan, Traya and Nihilus a mere 40 years later, though.




Here's an equal issue, though: We can probably agree that Yoda really>All Jedi as of ROTS, and Luke at his peak>Any other Force User period.
While these may be subject to debate, it might not be totally set in stone, but it's the best conclusion to arrive at, given the evidence. If, for instance, GL says something 'absolute,' that just makes it so. While these things could be debated, effectiveness of said debate is...questionable

Well, for me, this is just a matter of interesting discussion.

I find myself rather curious, Nai; do you copy and paste the same exact insult for each and every argument? This is becoming ridiculous. Each and every time, it's always "harhar this is not an argument!!1!oneone!1!" or "Oh my" or "oh" or some other embarrassing attempt at sarcasm. You abuse the art. Seriously, it's similar to Janus's awe-inspiring dabbling of preschool humor when he claimed Darth Sexy was my girlfriend. Has your time at EoD stunted your ability to engage in decent wordplay?



That's just the point. We haven't seen each and every Force user in Exar Kun's time, so if we are to truly ignore LFL's "absolutes", then we can question his status as the strongest of his time. Comparing him to other characters, Nai, would only prove that he's stronger than the ones in his era that we've seen. If we ignore absolutes, then Marka Ragnos can be considered to be one of the weaker Ancient Sith, as he hasn't demonstrated any remarkable power or manifestation of the Force. All we have are those absolute statements -- which you're keen on eliminating simply because the phrase "most powerful Sith Lord" has always been used with Sidious and no other.



My objectivity isn't in question, since it's something that most of the debaters here can agree on. What about yourself, Nai? Hell, your own companion (Janus) has, at one time or another, ridiculed you for fanboyism in regards to Yoda and the prequel trilogy Jedi. Your own e-clique can't even call you objective, where is your vaunted ability? As for LFL and their statements, Lightsnake correctly pointed out that they do and have used absolute statements multiple times in the past, and yet you focus only on the ones regarding Sidious. That is what's cute, Nai.



So, you personally don't believe Sidious is the strongest and you're arguing that all the evidence supporting his status is hardly concrete and easily "dismantled" and yet you have no problem proclaiming him as much when you wish to fellate a character you like (Dooku)? Careful, Nai. While I myself am doing an incredible job of making you look like an idiot, you might finish the race for me. And, I've helped formulate arguments based on more evidence and overturned months of fellating the Ancient Sith to the point where you're scrambling on EoD to "not include them in debates" anymore because your entire stance was obliterated here. That is a measurement of how right I am.



You have a habit of exaggerating, Nai. It's like your favorite statement from Dark Rendezvous how a dark-side-wielding Yoda would "obliterate Sidz in teh blink of an eye!!11!" when the book never says that at all (it says "annihilated". I also recall no such time in RoDV where Sidious admits that he was "lucky" to survive a fight with Yoda. Page number. Get to it.



No. Sidious said that if the Jedi weren't so arrogant and self-absorbed, if they were enlightened, then they "might have proven more difficult to topple" and then he goes onto say that " and I might have lost everything".

Well, that was certainly fascinating, Nai. Is this the awesome will and intellectual power that you threatened to bring against Darth Sexy? This is your "asskicking"? Your group really has lot its touch, my good friend. So, I'd suggest cracking the books and working on sharpening that impossibly dull wit of yours before coming back for round two. But remember, Nai: surrender is always an option.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
It depends on how you define 'his time,' with people like Revan, Traya and Nihilus a mere 40 years later, though.

Given that you started with the respective orders, Kun's "time" would be limited to the rather short time span in which he was DLotS.



The point is, Lightsnake, that most of that statements don't even matter in fictional versus fights. The more powerful (force wise) opponent might still get defeated in a lightsaber fight by his (force wise) inferior (see Sidious VS Mace). The superior duellist might be overcome by superior force mastery (see Kas'im VS Bane) or tricks (see Jacen VS Mara Jade).

And the term "most powerful" leads to the question: "To what extend?" Even following that statement and accepting it without question, every other Sith character could - technically - still be 99,99999 % as powerful as Sidious (Vader being the only exception since Lucas stated he's 80 % as powerful as OT Sidious).

And of course the statements we have wouldn't most likely don't even match the impressions we have. Just as example. Lucas stated that Luke (same potential as Anakin) at his full potential, in his vision, is twice as powerful as Sidious. If Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord in history, does that mean that Luke at his full potential (let's say he's rather close to it in his actual incarnation) could take it up with any Sith Lord duo (past DE Sith excepted) you might come up with? Do you consider that to be likely? Luke VS Nihilus + DE Sidious - Luke wins hands down by overpowering them both at the same time? Sounds unlikely to me.

Originally posted by Gideon
I find myself rather curious, Nai; do you copy and paste the same exact insult for each and every argument? This is becoming ridiculous. Each and every time, it's always "harhar this is not an argument!!1!oneone!1!" or "Oh my" or "oh" or some other embarrassing attempt at sarcasm. You abuse the art.

Gideon. You're simply not worth the five seconds of time I would need to come up with a new funny statement. So I rather stick with old ones. Saves time and seems to be as effective if you jump on it like a trained monkey does on Bananas. Nice work in the self-dismantle department.



Escape. There is a German comment, which matches the situation pretty well. It says "Wenn man keine Ahnung hat, einfach mal die Schnautze halten". Translated this would mean something like "If you don't have any idea what you're talking about, simply shut the **** up". Janus called Darth Sexy your girlfriend because DS used to wear the usertitle "Escape's Girlfriend" (or "Gideons girlfriend" over at EoD. So you might want to blame your sidekick for that.

And engage in a decent wordplay with you, Escape? For what reason? Arguing with people, who compare there own words to "god given fact", seems to be quite a waste of time. I could do more reasonable things - like installing smoke detectors in hell, selling ice-machines at the Northpole or export sand into the Sahara. I think you're getting the picture.



Stop putting words in my mouth, Escape.
I didn't question the statement. It was Leland Chee who questioned that this statement refers to actual force power (something different people have told you over and over again as I may add). So stop crying and accept that. Aside of that it doesn't make sense to question the status of certain people if there is no basis to question it. You are familiar with Occam's Razor, right? Use it. Instead of coming back to me with that mindless bullshit over and over again.

If you have a reason to question the status of certain individuals, you can feel free to do so. If there is no reason, it's pointless.



Appeal to majority. Logical fallacy. Next please. One should think that you have learned some stuff in your years around here. Doesn't seem to be the case.



Are you really that dumb, Escape? Good god. I've explained my approach to debates FOUR TIMES to you now, and either you simply ignore it, or you are just too stupid to get a grasp on what I'm saying.

I'll try it for the last time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advocatus_Diaboli
Read that. Carefully. If you don't feel like having understand it after reading it once, do it again. Until it got into your head. When you're finished with that, you might want to get in your head that this is what I usually do. Playing the devil's advocate. And because of that I can just change my personal "opinion" from debate to debate and I don't even have to be objective, Escape (Not that I ever claimed to be objective, unlike you,pal).

So nice way trying to attack something you don't even understand, Escape. Especially in the wonderful way you attempted it. Appeal to majority first, appeal to authority after that and then an ad hominem to finish the work. What a pitiful job for a self-proclaimed "debater" like yourself. Come back to me when you did get some of that...what was it called? Education? Ah yes.



See above. It's getting boring, Escape.



The only thing you do, Escape, is making yourself look like an idiot. And you're doing an incredible job with it, yes. Praising your own supposed debating skills, while constructing arguments that consist of nothing but logical fallacies. Attacking ways to argue you don't understand. That certainly is a testament to your superiority - your superiority in holding yourself up to ridicule that is. Having ego problems recently,pal? I'm not the guy you should attack in order to solve them.



Really, Escape. For somebody that is so prone in lecturing people about how bad debating habits they have you're flaming quite well nowadays. Something you recently accused Janus off. Good god.

But okay. See Escape. You suffer from the delusion that I'm debating like you do here. I don't. I don't care about people sharing my opinion (much less people I don't even know) and so I don't care to convince them. I don't care if people oppose me, insult me, praise me or applaud my postings. And because of that you'll always fail to get a grasp on what I'm doing here. The SW VS Forum persona of Nai Fohl / Borbarad is totally seperated from the entity sitting in front of my PC. It's an alter ego. The devil's advocate that argues for the sake of the argument. Nothing else. You, in turn, have to defend yourself, your own views, your arguments because Gideon is a 100 % match of the guy sitting in front of your PC.

See. And that is why you simply can't "win" debates against me. Not in the sense you're playing this game. Best thing you could do is constructing an argument that is beyond any question. An argument that can't be scrutenized. Do you really think that you did ever archieve something like that, Escape? Do you think you did even come close to that?

And until the day you get that into your head, Escape, your situation looks like that: I'm playing an ineffable game of my own devising with you, which might be compared, from the perspective of any of the other players , to being involved in an obscure and complex variant of poker in a pitch-dark room, with blank cards, for infinite stakes, with a Dealer who won't tell you all the rules, only some here and there, and who smiles all the time. Until that day, you will just be able to look like a rather intelligent debater, that has a mind working like a watch, while I have the finger on the button, that makes the watch go "cuckoo" everytime I want.

Because, as we see here, I just have to question your ideas and you instantly start getting personal. Something that, I may remind you, you criticized people like Janus and IKC for. How does it feel turning into the very same thing you always despised, Escape? Good? I'm, of course, glad to know, that people like Janus act as such great models for you, that you simply have to try to emulate them. Although I have to admit, that you're doing a rather poor job with it, given the fun-level of your usual comments pales in comparison to stuff that Janus or Illustrious used to unleash into this forum here.

Now you can go on with the fun-stuff and attempt to make me look like an idiot. I have a soft spot for that kind of cheap entertainment. Or you might want to attempt something that would give you a greater chance of success. Like trying to nail jelly onto a wall.

Nai, we can go back and forth all day with the "self-ownage!!1!" claims, you and I accusing one another of owning ourselves, and that's all well and good. But those accusations fail to alter reality; in reality, you're the one who exaggerates and fabricates quotes, distorting them for your own purposes (isn't it ironic how you, in this entire diatribe, fail to respond or consent to the little mini-argument about Sidious's statement in Rise of Darth Vader? People notice that, Nai); in reality, you're the one who tries to use the devil's advocate method as a shield for the times when your stance on an argument is decimated; in reality, you're the one who nitpicks statements issued by Leeland Chee in an attempt to save credibility for the characters that you like. And, perhaps now you'll see why no one around here adheres to your bullshit.

By the way, it's cute how you won't waste "five seconds" of time to summon new comedic material, yet you'll take several minutes to participate in what you consider to be a "flawed" argument. And you wish to lecture about self-ownage? I guess you could, since you're seemingly so familiar with the concept.



According to my sidekick (we recently suffered a break-up), you can thank EoD's marvelously incompetent staff for that little attempt at humor. Really, Nai, why the hell would Darth Sexy change his usertitle to that when he is seemingly affronted by the idea? Perhaps you could exchange "self ownage" for "common sense", because it stands to reason since you're so proficient with the former, you'll wield some expertise in the latter.



Why not? You take the time to keep coming back, posting and hacking away, like some mentally handicapped child given a plastic sword. This would be another example of you owning yourself. You've been responding, each and every time, coming back like an obedient pet. I'm certainly a narcissist, but even I don't let my ego get dangled in front of me like a lure. Something, perhaps, that you need to get under control?



If only we were debating my objectivity... the fact is that I have more of a reputation for it than you. By the way, how is the view of your intestines, since your head is so neatly and efficiently crammed up your ass?



Well, ignorance and stupidity aren't traits to which I've been accredited with. Then again, the only other constant here is you, a person with an unflattering history of atrocities that you call "arguments" and failed conclusions (we've gone from the amusing "Sidiuz sux!! LOL11!!1!" to the Gideon-testified "Sidious is the strongest Sith in history" in just a few short years). So, I'd say that you're failing to explain and function properly.



Gee, sounds a hell of a lot like "when my ass gets proven wrong, I can just claim I was playing the Devil's advocate in an attempt to save myself some egocrushing embarrassment". Why, aren't you clever? Given your distinct lack of skill, it still might have worked, if you weren't surrounded by people who see through it.



Playing victim, again? "Ad hominem!!11lololol!!11" -- almost as if you don't deal in it yourself. Deluded and hypocritical. Freud would have a field day with you, Nai.



And yet you're still compelled to post and respond to every statement I make. If this is boredom and this is how you treat it, I suppose you also ought to acquire a life along with common sense. But, I don't suspect that you will. I suspect that you'll keep coming back each and every single time. You're like some online frisbee.



What can I say? I thought to myself: 'what would really embarrass them?' And the answer came to me: play their game and beat them at it. We're playing and the score's not looking so hot for you.



Nice monologue, Nai. Is this the sort've thing you tell yourself when you're playing Dungeons&Dragons, wasting away as a twenty-something-year-old with absolutely no social life? I have to say, as far as "ominous, cool monologues" go, this is pretty good.



...Oh, and getting better with the paragraph. I bet you're playing some ominous, cool music to set the mood. Candles lit, too, probably. Given the skill of this monologue, I bet it's been practiced. You sly dog, have you been standing in front of the mirror again, practicing these little speeches?

"A rather intelligent debater"? Flattery gets you nowhere, and I have to detract points from the monologue for contradicting yourself here, but it's still pretty good.



Uh-oh. Minus more points for the "personal" bit. I mean, hell, you're just speculating now, and as we've seen, perception isn't one of your strong suits.



...And minus a few more for the "nail jelly to the wall" comment. That is a damn poor way to end your, otherwise, very cool, ominous monologue. You'll be a real hit at the next D&D meeting, Nai.

Now, in the meantime, I once again must question your ability to "kick ass". Is this all you've got? The cool, ominous monologue didn't save the rest of your argument, Nai. And just remember: you can claim you're manipulating me and you've got your finger on the button to my "watch", but I'm the one whom you bash and claim to be "not worth" your precious time, and yet you still respond. Just like I thought. Predictable.

Take some time to work on your thoughts before round three, Nai. At the rate you're going, I don't think you'll make it.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Given that you started with the respective orders, Kun's "time" would be limited to the rather short time span in which he was DLotS.
Here's where we enter into murky territory: Kun is DLOTS for 6 months and that's it. When we say 'his time,' we can also mean the KOTOR era, which can go through to the Mando wars and to the end of Nihilus's time when the Jedi were finally able to begin rebuilding.




What, however, is more likely though. If we have a 'force only' or all out fight? Should we rather not say the more powerful is the one more likely to win?


Yes. That's why we clarify in the matches we put on the board.


But is that not also a clear, set in stone, absolute?
And that ambiguity does mean something, too. If nothing is to put them by that .00001 percent, we are left with an advantage for the more powerful, nevermind how slight. Or equal. Or we can turn it on to who has more knowledge, or one of a dozen things.


A problem, then....what if our impressions don't match facts? If Luke was seriously aiming to kill, he could very likely take any Sith duo around. When it comes to measuring power, Luke is that high tier for a reason, and don't forget, Nai, once upon a time, common consensus was Marka Ragnos could solo Luke, Palpatine, Nihilus and possibly Exar Kun at once.

Originally posted by Gideon
Nai, we can go back and forth all day with the "self-ownage!!1!" claims, you and I accusing one another of owning ourselves, and that's all well and good. But those accusations fail to alter reality; in reality, you're the one who exaggerates and fabricates quotes, distorting them for your own purposes (isn't it ironic how you, in this entire diatribe, fail to respond or consent to the little mini-argument about Sidious's statement in Rise of Darth Vader? People notice that, Nai); in reality, you're the one who tries to use the devil's advocate method as a shield for the times when your stance on an argument is decimated; in reality, you're the one who nitpicks statements issued by Leeland Chee in an attempt to save credibility for the characters that you like. And, perhaps now you'll see why no one around here adheres to your bullshit.

Tsss...
Coming to the reality checks, Gideon, you might want to read once more what I'm posting. Twisting words in order to have them fit your cute view of the world doesn't help you much.

a) I said that I didn't have the source right in front of me. The quote was given. I was wrong. So I decided to drop the point. Are we playing "debate for dummies" now, where I have to explain everything I'm doing? If you aren't smart enough to follow a debate unless people are handing you images, picturing how it was going, you might want to stay out of a forum.

b) What argument, Escape? Excuse me. How often did you see me acting rather than reacting around here? If I give my personal opinion, which happens rarely enough around here, I almost always start with a sentence like. "I guess..." or "That's debateable. Imho..." and so on. You might realize that, once you start to read stuff before replying to it.

c) I nitpick statements to save whom exactly, Escape? You may want to read my reply to Lightsnake and come to the realization that everything you might toss into the ring for Sidious is a complete waste in terms of VS fights. Which is, actually, what this forum is about - in case you did forget that.

d) Repeating your appeals to the majority ("people notice that", "nobody adheres to you" neither makes them less fallacious nor does it impress me at all.



I guess you should, just sometimes, think before you're posting. That I don't waste five seconds to do X naturally doesn't mean that I won't waste a longer amount of time to perform Y. Thanks for trying to take it up with logic and lose once more, Escape. Same precedure as every post, I guess.



Escape. Your attempt to worm out of the fact that you accused Janus for a bad taste in terms of humor, when he just used a term coined by Darth Sexy to descripe Darth Sexy, aren't working. Was that you who attempted to give me a lecture on how I'm not willing to admit I did something wrong just a few paragraphs ago? Quite nice from somebody who seemingly fails his own standards.



I'm rather sure you're familiar with how it looks like when a mentally handicapped child with a plastic sword is hacking away. That's at least something you can observe on a daily basis doing SW roleplay in front of your mirror. Aside of that I don't think we should discuss parts of me that are "dangling" in front of myself. We have non-adults reading here and aside of that I don't want you to die because of blank astonishment.



Of course we aren't debating your objectivity. Because there is nothing to debate in this case. And of course you have a great reputation for your objectivity here, Escape. But quite frankly: The moon doesn't care much about the fact, that the wolf howling at it has a nice reputation among the bugs crawling around in the forrest.



Then I have to say you're doing quite a nice job using them - even as an amateur...



...while you do use lies and willful missinterpretations rather well, just to have something to say at all. Not only that I never stated that "Sidious sux" (I beg to differ). Nope. One must also be rather amused by the fact that you still go "You've accepted that Sidious is the strongest Sith in history" when I opposed that statement multiple times in the very same thread. So what happend to your brain, Escape. Car accident? Or were you lobotomized and things, how ridiculous that might sound, actually got better?




Right, Escape. I just keep switching my opinion in order to oppose people on a daily routine (even arguing contradicting positions on different threads at the same time) because . And of course I'm doing that because I'm constantly owned here in debates by...oh...constant lack of candidates in that department.



Talking out of your ass again, Escape? Do I run around on the board and call other people out for "flaming" usually? No? WTF? Can it be that I just placed this statement there because you:
a) Can't keep calm in debates
b) Bash people because they bash other people, while apparently thinking you're doing that with some sort of superior morality.

Again failing to get a grasp on the statements your commenting on? Of course Freud could have a field day with me, while you would be casted aside, as psychoanalysis would require a patient having a brain in the first place. A requirement you apparently don't fit.

Get yourself a sheet of paper and a pencil, Escape. Now look at what that quote was referring to. Then have a second look on your response. Doesn't make much sense. But thanks anyway.



Oh. Quit with the lies already. You can't really have thought anything before hitting the reply button, Escape.



I have to admit. That's the best excuse for developing into an arrogant ass I've came across so far. On the other handside you've just torpeded your own credibility with that now. Nice work. Keep it up.



Hey. This was absolute ownage, Escape. If I, to a certain extend, wouldn't get paid for actually having a social life this would have hurt me badly. But of course such wonderful speculations always fall back on the one who made them. So having no social live outside of an SW versus board, that you're so obsessed with, only online girlfriends (although I don't see Advent posting much at the moment) and having no job (you just needed all that time to have this cool "king of the ring" thing going on here, I know) - do you enjoy that lifestyle?



Nope. Not really. You confuse me with that other world-famous dude that used to rule Germany between 1933 and 1945. It's just general training, mainly based on my job.



Ah. Sorry that I do have to intervene here. But that judgement is quite incorrect. That I question your arguments and interpretation of certain statements doesn't mean I can't respect you as person in the same place. Actually I can also keep insulting you, while still having respect for you to a certain extend. Hence it sometimes hurts that you, unlike Lightsnake, can't cope with that sort of mindset.



Pfft. Now you're copying my "uh-oh", Escape, while you labeled that as one of the "ridiculous" bits that I "copy and paste into every argument". Not so smart. Aside of that, stating the obvious doesn't qualify as speculation, especially since you've admitted that I was perfectly right with that statement some paragraphs earlier.



Geez, Escape. It's 7 a.m. over here and I haven't slept. Aside of that I can't recall anouncing to "kick your ass" somewhere.

And "manipulating"? Cute. If I want to manipulate somebody, I'd rather buy myself a (stupid) dog. "Manipulation" would imply that the effect generated by a certain action is actually wanted by the person that acts. Which would mean that I'm wanting you to waste your time typing stuff like this into this forum. Hmm. Let me think about that. No. My lastname isn't "De Sade" so I guess I'm not "manipulating" here. I'm just pressing the "do not push" button when knowing what will happen. And just keep it up, because I find it amusing.



I know that I'm not going to make it...down to your level. You might want to wait down there until I'm home from work. I will search for my shovel and start digging immediately then. Thinking about that: We have a coal mine just 20 kilometres away from here. If I start with the digging down there we might meet...hmm...30 or 40 years in the future.

And you have already lost, Escape. You have admitted that I do actually have thoughts to work on, which means I'm superior to you already. Bad mistake.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Here's where we enter into murky territory: Kun is DLOTS for 6 months and that's it. When we say 'his time,' we can also mean the KOTOR era, which can go through to the Mando wars and to the end of Nihilus's time when the Jedi were finally able to begin rebuilding.


Well. Stretching the era you're referring to like that, you could of course question if Nihilus, Traya, Revan, Malak or Sion would be able to take Exar Kun. Don't see anything speaking against that.



As long as "more powerful" can mean a difference in power anywhere between 0.000000000001 and infinite percent, judging the outcome of fights like that is pretty short-sighted. Aside of that you'd still have the problem that certain people do possess certain techniques. Can Sidious withstand a force drain (Nihilus, Traya) for example if he doesn't know what will be coming (or can he do it at all)? Can Kun's amulet blasts (if you recall them as force abilities) be deflected? Does the statement refer to actual power of an individual meaning that people possessing certain Sith artifacts (amulets that boost their power and so on) could still overpower a being that is, naturally, stronger than them in the ways of the force.



Yes. But there is always the "all out fight" option.



It is, if you accept that Lucas words, no matter how stupid, become G-Canon instantly. The guy does change his opinion more of than some people change their pants. And because of that his statements were also questioned here in the past.



See above. Certain techniques can negate an advantage in terms of power. And what would .000001 percent superiority do in a real fight?



In general I prefer to judge power based on showings rather then comments from third-party sources.



Err...nope.
The common consensus was, afaik, that Ragnos might be able to do so given that we don't know much about him despite that he was apparently quite powerful and apparently had quite some knowledge up his sleeve. But that's like almost everything else, just in the realm of speculation.

Just as example. If you want to suggest that Ragnos is capable of using the force drain to the same extend Nihilus can and if you accept the statement that there is no defence against that ability, a user of said ability can generally wipe out almost any given number of opponents .

Aside of that: Because I think something is unlikely doesn't mean that it won't happen. In general every force user that did exhibit instakill abilities can take X opponents at once. Theoretically.

Hahaha...people here are still the same I see.

Aww, Nai, you've sacrificed sleep to come back and respond to me. I'm delighted, and honored that, despite all this, you think I'm an intelligent debater. You make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
mace shows absolutely nothing force wise, only saber wise. so:
Lol your an idiot, mace suspended hundreds of tons of rock in the air with TK alone, thats far greater display of TK than what kreia ever did.

so did katarn. i dont see you bowing down and kissing his toes. so did yoda. i am sure many others could have done it as well. its just, how often does one find 100 tons of rock falling on his head? and yes, i am possitive that kreia could do some powerful tk as well if given the opportunity.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
so did katarn. i dont see you bowing down and kissing his toes. so did yoda.
And why were they able to do that? Simple because they were VERY powerful force users you idiot hence they could do that feat.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

i am sure many others could have done it as well.
Name them and prove it.
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

its just, how often does one find 100 tons of rock falling on his head?
Does it matter? It was massive and impressive feat.
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

and yes, i am possitive that kreia could do some powerful tk as well if given the opportunity. Really? And just what is there to even indicate she is as skilled as mace in sheer TK? I'd love to see an idiot like you prove it.

1. i would like a little proof about holding 100 tons of rock up with tk. maybe a pannel scan or a wookiepedia link.... substantiate your crap...

2. you seem to underestimate kmc's number 1 philosophy (besides all must bow to njo luke) size matters not!!1!!111 (also the reason studies have found that kmc has excessive male virginity over all other forums on the internet)

wookiepedia: While training him on Dagobah, Yoda told Luke Skywalker that the size/weight of an object is only relevant in the mind of the practitioner, and that once the mental distinction about an object's size can be let go of, objects of any size can be moved. Yoda demonstrated this by lifting Luke's X-wing out of the swamp.

3. here are your names: dooku, darth vader's valet (and/or secret apprentice?), yoda, luke, vader, nihilus, jax, revan, vader's secret apprentice and in fact kreia could use telekenesis to an astonishing level.

4. your overconfidence in insults is your weakness. kreia actually DID use telekinesis to an unprecidented level. implementing tk to wield 3 lightsabers without the use of her hands is in fact amaizing telekenesis. the multitasking and intellect of the mind required to controll 3 lightsabers to fight at one time with the precision needed to challenge the exile would be quite a task. comparing such a task to holding up 100 tons would be like comparing makashi to juyo.


Kreia was a master of telekinetic lightsaber combat, which allowed her to wield three or more lightsabers in combat, holding each of them aloft with the Force, and having them fight with a will of their own.

substantiate that mace held 100s of tons of rock with the force. even if you do, kreia still shows at least the same ability with her tk lightsaber combat.

Originally posted by Ivalice
And why were they able to do that? Simple because they were VERY powerful force users you idiot hence they could do that feat.

is this implying that kreia is not?
Originally posted by Ivalice
Does it matter? It was massive and impressive feat.
um.... yes it does actually, this was me saying that you actually might never actually need to use tk of that magnitude... and thus if kreia never had a chance to show this power in tk, how would you know wether or not she could?

Originally posted by Ivalice
Really? And just what is there to even indicate she is as skilled as mace in sheer TK? I'd love to see an idiot like you prove it.
skill or strength? i just proved skill... it would be hard to prove strength because, as i stated before, kreia never had a chance to show strong telekenesis, but she did however show incredible skill in telekenesis with her tele-saber combat.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
is this implying that kreia is not?

Because she is simply not as powerful as the ones you had mentioned?
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

um.... yes it does actually, this was me saying that you actually might never actually need to use tk of that magnitude... and thus if kreia never had a chance to show this power in tk, how would you know wether or not she could? Because being strong in one aspect of the force(force drain etc) does not mean you are just as good in other areas of the force?

Again what is there to even indicate that she can use TK at that magnitude? Simply because she has never demonstrated TK at that level, it cannot be assumed that she can use TK at that peak.

You make a claim, you prove up and if you cannot and will not then shut the hell up.

You made a claim that she could use TK at that same level, the burden falls on you, YOU have yet to prove up and all you are doing as usual is speculating.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

skill or strength? i just proved skill...
You have yet to prove ANYTHING.
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

it would be hard to prove strength because, as i stated before, kreia never had a chance to show strong telekenesis,
Then it cannot be assumed she has "immense telekenesis".
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

but she did however show incredible skill in telekenesis with her tele-saber combat. Wow big deal, suspending 3 lightsabers = incredible skill. I guess vader is a TK god because he ripped a massive bridge to pieces and used all the shrapnel as missles.

Lifting hundreds and tons of rocks >>>>> suspending 3 lightsabers, Hell weakling TESB luke could lift multiple rocks at a time.

Again it wouldn't make a difference if she used TK to fight with 3 lightsabers, its not like mace can't cancel out the course of the lightsaber or better yet force crush 3 of them rendering them useless.

Originally posted by Ivalice
Lol your an idiot, mace suspended hundreds of tons of rock in the air with TK alone, thats far greater display of TK than what kreia ever did.

1. When was it "hundreds of tons"? What source are you using?

2. Kreia has the TK expertise to manipulate three lightsabers in combat- something unprecedented.... OMFG by your logic she beats Mace Windu because he hasn't replicated the exact same feat, irregardless of circumstances!

3. In the cut content of KotOR II, Kreia pulverizes the three Jedi masters who are helpless BEFORE she zaps them into oblivion without any effort at all. It's apparent that, even considering the cut, Kreia is supposed to be the top-of-the-line force user in her era. Mace Windu is good, but his real strength is raw strength and lightsaber technique, as well as trying to get into his opponent's head. Read Shatterpoint for details. Mace Windu gets jumped by goons with slug-throwers and can only run. He didn't embrace the base and TK frag them all or throw buildings at them.


I don't see him surviving a force drain, or massive TK done by a far more decorated and powerful force user simply because he's a) from the movies, ergo he's so much cooler than anything else, unless it's a novel/game/comic version of said movie character; then if that novel/game/comic version is somehow better than his movie counterpart, novel/game/comic version's feats will necessarily be absolute canon despite Chee's direct quote that the movies themselves are firstly canon. B) He's Sammy Jackson. In most debates this may float, but not here. C) You simply refuse to believe in anything unless it's rammed into your skull over and over again.

Originally posted by Ivalice
Because she is simply not as powerful as the ones you had mentioned? [/quote}
um... katarn is a very minor character and is defenitely not as powerful as kreia, showing simply a massive tk. but this is not katarn vs kreia....


1. substantiate. i requested some sort of proof that maul could hold up 100 tons with tk or some sort of precedent. yet, i am forced to believe that supershadow told you he could


hmm. if he did, i guess he is... but its still not as skilled as making 3 lightsabers fight as if with a mind of their own.


um.... i dont know what to say to you here besides....
STFU NOOBLET suspending lightsabers and rocks is all very fine, but fighting with them as if they each had a sperate handler is something completely different. i would like to see your esb luke take on vader with multiple rocks...

fanboyism. complete fanboyism... 4 points this is an idiotic statment
1. tking lightsaber combat is just an example of kreias power. i wasnt saying she would use these against mace.
2. i dont even know what you mean cancel out the course of the lightsaber?!?!
3. force crush... a lightsaber.... lightsabers are built for jedis that are slamming on each other with all of their might. this means that it has to undergo force strength.... hes not going to crush them. you are a flaiming idiot.
4. yes, he force crushed grevious's chest cavity, but obi-wan, a lesser jedi, pulled the durasteel apart with force strength. you are a mace fanboy.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
1. When was it "hundreds of tons"? What source are you using?

2. Kreia has the TK expertise to manipulate three lightsabers in combat- something unprecedented.... OMFG by your logic she beats Mace Windu because he hasn't replicated the exact same feat, irregardless of circumstances!

3. In the cut content of KotOR II, Kreia pulverizes the three Jedi masters who are helpless BEFORE she zaps them into oblivion without any effort at all. It's apparent that, even considering the cut, Kreia is supposed to be the top-of-the-line force user in her era. Mace Windu is good, but his real strength is raw strength and lightsaber technique, as well as trying to get into his opponent's head. Read Shatterpoint for details. Mace Windu gets jumped by goons with slug-throwers and can only run. He didn't embrace the base and TK frag them all or throw buildings at them.


I don't see him surviving a force drain, or massive TK done by a far more decorated and powerful force user simply because he's a) from the movies, ergo he's so much cooler than anything else, unless it's a novel/game/comic version of said movie character; then if that novel/game/comic version is somehow better than his movie counterpart, novel/game/comic version's feats will necessarily be absolute canon despite Chee's direct quote that the movies themselves are firstly canon. B) He's Sammy Jackson. In most debates this may float, but not here. C) You simply refuse to believe in anything unless it's rammed into your skull over and over again.

um... wow! a skilled debator on my side of the arguement

wait... did i win one?

YES!!!! I RULE DA GALAXY!!!

i won a debate.... o yeaaaaa!

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
YES!!!! I RULE DA GALAXY!!!

i won a debate.... o yeaaaaa!
If your side won(which im not saying it has or hasnt) it would be because of Janus NOT you.

Originally posted by Ivalice
Wow big deal, suspending 3 lightsabers = incredible skill. I guess vader is a TK god because he ripped a massive bridge to pieces and used all the shrapnel as missles.
Stop twisting facts. The "massive bridge" Vader ripped apart was a wooden walkway on Kashyyyk, not some superstructure as you're implying. It's not that big of a deal, so don't treat it like it is.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
If your side won(which im not saying it has or hasnt) it would be because of Janus NOT you.

dude. any more hopes and dreams you feel like crushing? janus said the exact same thing as I did.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
dude. any more hopes and dreams you feel like crushing?

What do you got?



But the way Janus said it was better than you

hmm :/ no he didnt. facts is facts. could we just like.... be a team this time? ;( i mean.... between the two of us ivalice backed off...

KnightFa11, you haven't done anything other than troll constantly and embarass yourself with immature stupidity..

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
hmm :/ no he didnt. facts is facts. could we just like.... be a team this time? ;( i mean.... between the two of us ivalice backed off...
From what I have read Ivalice conceded due to Janus not u.

conceded

Oops

Originally posted by Faunus
Stop twisting facts. The "massive bridge" Vader ripped apart was a wooden walkway on Kashyyyk, not some superstructure as you're implying. It's not that big of a deal, so don't treat it like it is.

While it wasn't precisely a superstructure, it was a pretty kickass feat, given the shit that Vader had been through with the suit's limitations and so forth. He also displayed some remarkable control over it, dismantling the entire thing and hurling them at critically precise spots on Roan's anatomy.

I dont see how you can give credit soly to janus even though he is an amaizing debator. he said the same thing i did. he must have more of a reputation?

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11


4. your overconfidence in insults is your weakness. kreia actually DID use telekinesis to an unprecidented level. implementing tk to wield 3 lightsabers without the use of her hands, is in fact amaizing telekenesis.

substantiate that mace held 100s of tons of rock with the force. even if you do, kreia still shows at least the same ability with her tk lightsaber combat.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
1. When was it "hundreds of tons"? What source are you using?

2. Kreia has the TK expertise to manipulate three lightsabers in combat- something unprecedented.... OMFG by your logic she beats Mace Windu because he hasn't replicated the exact same feat, irregardless of circumstances!


i dont see much difference in presentation here....

also, i made points that he in fact didnt. he made points that I in fact, didnt. is it because he has been here longer and won more that you cant accept that i have had my first victory on these forums?

he even said those after i said what i said. i dont get your point....

haha the bridge was a kashykk wooden walkway? lmao that is like the most godlike tk he could come up with? seriously... i would have picked something like nihilus's abilty to hold his whole ship together and make it run on the force for years after malachor and show little-no distraction while doing it.

Originally posted by Gideon
While it wasn't precisely a superstructure, it was a pretty kickass feat, given the shit that Vader had been through with the suit's limitations and so forth. He also displayed some remarkable control over it, dismantling the entire thing and hurling them at critically precise spots on Roan's anatomy. Agreed. The latter aspect of it was decidedly more impressive than the (lack of) brute force utilized, which was what Ivalice was stating.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Tsss...
Coming to the reality checks, Gideon, you might want to read once more what I'm posting. Twisting words in order to have them fit your cute view of the world doesn't help you much.

a) I said that I didn't have the source right in front of me. The quote was given. I was wrong. So I decided to drop the point. Are we playing "debate for dummies" now, where I have to explain everything I'm doing? If you aren't smart enough to follow a debate unless people are handing you images, picturing how it was going, you might want to stay out of a forum.

b) What argument, Escape? Excuse me. How often did you see me acting rather than reacting around here? If I give my personal opinion, which happens rarely enough around here, I almost always start with a sentence like. "I guess..." or "That's debateable. Imho..." and so on. You might realize that, once you start to read stuff before replying to it.

c) I nitpick statements to save whom exactly, Escape? You may want to read my reply to Lightsnake and come to the realization that everything you might toss into the ring for Sidious is a complete waste in terms of VS fights. Which is, actually, what this forum is about - in case you did forget that.

d) Repeating your appeals to the majority ("people notice that", "nobody adheres to you" neither makes them less fallacious nor does it impress me at all.



I guess you should, just sometimes, think before you're posting. That I don't waste five seconds to do X naturally doesn't mean that I won't waste a longer amount of time to perform Y. Thanks for trying to take it up with logic and lose once more, Escape. Same precedure as every post, I guess.



Escape. Your attempt to worm out of the fact that you accused Janus for a bad taste in terms of humor, when he just used a term coined by Darth Sexy to descripe Darth Sexy, aren't working. Was that you who attempted to give me a lecture on how I'm not willing to admit I did something wrong just a few paragraphs ago? Quite nice from somebody who seemingly fails his own standards.



I'm rather sure you're familiar with how it looks like when a mentally handicapped child with a plastic sword is hacking away. That's at least something you can observe on a daily basis doing SW roleplay in front of your mirror. Aside of that I don't think we should discuss parts of me that are "dangling" in front of myself. We have non-adults reading here and aside of that I don't want you to die because of blank astonishment.



Of course we aren't debating your objectivity. Because there is nothing to debate in this case. And of course you have a great reputation for your objectivity here, Escape. But quite frankly: The moon doesn't care much about the fact, that the wolf howling at it has a nice reputation among the bugs crawling around in the forrest.



Then I have to say you're doing quite a nice job using them - even as an amateur...



...while you do use lies and willful missinterpretations rather well, just to have something to say at all. Not only that I never stated that "Sidious sux" (I beg to differ). Nope. One must also be rather amused by the fact that you still go "You've accepted that Sidious is the strongest Sith in history" when I opposed that statement multiple times in the very same thread. So what happend to your brain, Escape. Car accident? Or were you lobotomized and things, how ridiculous that might sound, actually got better?




Right, Escape. I just keep switching my opinion in order to oppose people on a daily routine (even arguing contradicting positions on different threads at the same time) because . And of course I'm doing that because I'm constantly owned here in debates by...oh...constant lack of candidates in that department.



Talking out of your ass again, Escape? Do I run around on the board and call other people out for "flaming" usually? No? WTF? Can it be that I just placed this statement there because you:
a) Can't keep calm in debates
b) Bash people because they bash other people, while apparently thinking you're doing that with some sort of superior morality.

Again failing to get a grasp on the statements your commenting on? Of course Freud could have a field day with me, while you would be casted aside, as psychoanalysis would require a patient having a brain in the first place. A requirement you apparently don't fit.

Get yourself a sheet of paper and a pencil, Escape. Now look at what that quote was referring to. Then have a second look on your response. Doesn't make much sense. But thanks anyway.



Oh. Quit with the lies already. You can't really have thought anything before hitting the reply button, Escape.



I have to admit. That's the best excuse for developing into an arrogant ass I've came across so far. On the other handside you've just torpeded your own credibility with that now. Nice work. Keep it up.



Hey. This was absolute ownage, Escape. If I, to a certain extend, wouldn't get paid for actually having a social life this would have hurt me badly. But of course such wonderful speculations always fall back on the one who made them. So having no social live outside of an SW versus board, that you're so obsessed with, only online girlfriends (although I don't see Advent posting much at the moment) and having no job (you just needed all that time to have this cool "king of the ring" thing going on here, I know) - do you enjoy that lifestyle?



Nope. Not really. You confuse me with that other world-famous dude that used to rule Germany between 1933 and 1945. It's just general training, mainly based on my job.



Ah. Sorry that I do have to intervene here. But that judgement is quite incorrect. That I question your arguments and interpretation of certain statements doesn't mean I can't respect you as person in the same place. Actually I can also keep insulting you, while still having respect for you to a certain extend. Hence it sometimes hurts that you, unlike Lightsnake, can't cope with that sort of mindset.



Pfft. Now you're copying my "uh-oh", Escape, while you labeled that as one of the "ridiculous" bits that I "copy and paste into every argument". Not so smart. Aside of that, stating the obvious doesn't qualify as speculation, especially since you've admitted that I was perfectly right with that statement some paragraphs earlier.



Geez, Escape. It's 7 a.m. over here and I haven't slept. Aside of that I can't recall anouncing to "kick your ass" somewhere.

And "manipulating"? Cute. If I want to manipulate somebody, I'd rather buy myself a (stupid) dog. "Manipulation" would imply that the effect generated by a certain action is actually wanted by the person that acts. Which would mean that I'm wanting you to waste your time typing stuff like this into this forum. Hmm. Let me think about that. No. My lastname isn't "De Sade" so I guess I'm not "manipulating" here. I'm just pressing the "do not push" button when knowing what will happen. And just keep it up, because I find it amusing.



I know that I'm not going to make it...down to your level. You might want to wait down there until I'm home from work. I will search for my shovel and start digging immediately then. Thinking about that: We have a coal mine just 20 kilometres away from here. If I start with the digging down there we might meet...hmm...30 or 40 years in the future.

And you have already lost, Escape. You have admitted that I do actually have thoughts to work on, which means I'm superior to you already. Bad mistake.

Nai, that was... just wonderful. Best I've seen in a long while.

Weird, Nai's done the exact same to you..

all i really see are some insults.

dont see much debating.

People here just have alot of anger issues and alot of history. And the lack of debating is due to the lack of argument, everyone knows that Traya would cream Windu.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
People here just have alot of anger issues and alot of history. And the lack of debating is due to the lack of argument, everyone knows that Traya would cream Windu. Cream him? No, but possibly beating him after a hard battle? Yes. Personally i see it going either way seeing that both are strong force users, mace is no slouch in the force, well not at least the way SOME people are implying.

Mace is hardly a child with the Force, and his potential and raw power was pretty amazing, but Traya killed and maimed Jedi masters with relative ease. Even RotS Sidious couldn't claim to have killed three jedi masters in a heartbeat using his Force powers. The height of Mace Windu's force resistance is the basic resistance to Force Tk (Which can be overridden either by surprise or by superior TK) or blocking Sith Lightning (Which Traya apparently has not used in a cutscene). I don't see how either of those are going to help him when she force drains him.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Mace is hardly a child with the Force, and his potential and raw power was pretty amazing, but Traya killed and maimed Jedi masters with relative ease. Even RotS Sidious couldn't claim to have killed three jedi masters in a heartbeat using his Force powers. The height of Mace Windu's force resistance is the basic resistance to Force Tk (Which can be overridden either by surprise or by superior TK) or blocking Sith Lightning (Which Traya apparently has not used in a cutscene). I don't see how either of those are going to help him when she force drains him. True, but the thing is do those 3 jedi masters combat prowess compare to that of mace windu?

Anyways i found the quote regarding windu lifting hundreds of tons of rock in shatterpoint but because it came from nebaris, i would like to request if you can confirm it

:The dirt cliff shook, buckled, and collapsed. With a subterranean roar that buried even the thunder of the eruption and the clamor of the steamcrawler's laboring engine, hundreds of tons of dirt and rock poured into the river of lava...Nearly all his concentration stayed submerged in the Force, spread throughout the slide, using a wide-focus Force grip to stabilize the rubble while he scrambled down to the steamcrawler's roof.


In all honesty i don't think kreias drain would kill mace that quickly, because if it would have killed even very powerful force users easily, why did she not use it when nihilus and sion turned against her or against the exile?

Originally posted by Ivalice
True, but the thing is do those 3 jedi masters combat prowess compare to that of mace windu?

Anyways i found the quote regarding windu lifting hundreds of tons of rock in shatterpoint but because it came from nebaris, i would like to request if you can confirm it

:The dirt cliff shook, buckled, and collapsed. With a subterranean roar that buried even the thunder of the eruption and the clamor of the steamcrawler's laboring engine, hundreds of tons of dirt and rock poured into the river of lava...Nearly all his concentration stayed submerged in the Force, spread throughout the slide, using a wide-focus Force grip to stabilize the rubble while he scrambled down to the steamcrawler's roof.


In all honesty i don't think kreias drain would kill mace that quickly, because if it would have killed even very powerful force users easily, why did she not use it when nihilus and sion turned against her or against the exile?

wookiepedia said something about him riding an avalanche weighing hundreds of tons. however, this is something quite different from holding back an avalanche weighing hundreds of tons.

:His mastery of the Force was also extensive, augmented by his considerable power. Mace was able to perform incredible feats, such as "riding" a landslide of rock and earth weighing hundreds of tons.

maybe he steered it or something but thats not the same as holding up 100 tons as you said before.

and... why did you debate for a quote you got from nebaris?

once again, you seem to think since we used something as an example of her power, we are implying, she is going to replicate that power in the fight. if she did use the force drain, however, you would have very little to show (aside from reputation) that mace would survive it. and we have very little to show (aside from reputation) that it would kill him.
so lets not debate this topic because it will be a constant throwing of uncanon and irrelevant data.

the fact that has been confirmed multiple times by different debators then I is that Kreia would tool him in the force, mace would win with sabers because, this is where mace's imense talents lie, and where the source of all of his reputation (and fanboyism) with everyone comes from...

Originally posted by Ivalice
True, but the thing is do those 3 jedi masters combat prowess compare to that of mace windu?

Anyways i found the quote regarding windu lifting hundreds of tons of rock in shatterpoint but because it came from nebaris, i would like to request if you can confirm it

:The dirt cliff shook, buckled, and collapsed. With a subterranean roar that buried even the thunder of the eruption and the clamor of the steamcrawler's laboring engine, hundreds of tons of dirt and rock poured into the river of lava...Nearly all his concentration stayed submerged in the Force, spread throughout the slide, using a wide-focus Force grip to stabilize the rubble while he scrambled down to the steamcrawler's roof.


In all honesty i don't think kreias drain would kill mace that quickly, because if it would have killed even very powerful force users easily, why did she not use it when nihilus and sion turned against her or against the exile?

1. LK is actually almost right, Mace used the Force to "ride" the landslide, which is impressive, but not exactly going to win a fight. Yoda can levitate a crane and an X-Wing, but he cannot win a fight solely because of that.

2. Force TK, despite any apparent level of power, is a universal trait. Mace Windu hasn't shown two things: sufficient Force defense against fatal force drain; and any real showings against someone of Traya's level in a Force fight.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
1. LK is actually almost right, Mace used the Force to "ride" the landslide, which is impressive, but not exactly going to win a fight. Yoda can levitate a crane and an X-Wing, but he cannot win a fight solely because of that.

2. Force TK, despite any apparent level of power, is a universal trait. Mace Windu hasn't shown two things: sufficient Force defense against fatal force drain; and any real showings against someone of Traya's level in a Force fight.
^what he said^

I'm almost right?

YAY

Originally posted by Janus Marius
1. LK is actually almost right, Mace used the Force to "ride" the landslide, which is impressive, but not exactly going to win a fight. Yoda can levitate a crane and an X-Wing, but he cannot win a fight solely because of that.

2. Force TK, despite any apparent level of power, is a universal trait. Mace Windu hasn't shown two things: sufficient Force defense against fatal force drain; and any real showings against someone of Traya's level in a Force fight. Ok, well i have read your posts and that of LK and infact i do agree to some parts of it. But again the fact weather or not mace is going to get "tooled" in the force is dependant on his force resistance, the stronger the opponent, the greater his defences are.

this is getting frustrating. hes not going to reflect a force drain (if this is indeed what you are refering to)

once, i made the mistake of backing revan totally in sabers (it was my first thread so give me a break) when there wasnt that much material to back my arguement at all.

maybe there just isnt enough Force Usage to proclaim windu the force beast you seem to want to believe he is?

mace's amaizing power is not in force, but in sabers. leave it that he loses in force, but wins in sabers just because of the power that kreia has shown.

force feats that mace has shown
riding a landslide
force crushing grevious
force speed

if youl notice, the above has not been shown to kill a force sensetive.

Kreia
Instantly tooled 3 jedi masters in the force (as these are mostly unknowns, their relative power to windus is subject only to speculation)
(sideous never actually was able to do anything like this)

years upon years upon years of studying both sith techniques and jedi tecniques. (relevant speculation=who knows what else she might have in the anals of her mind besides a powerful force drain)

screwed with pretty much everyone she met's brains.

she just has a more impressive owning-through-the-force resume.

mace is overcelebrated because
he made vapaad, the form that edges on the darkside to strike as if with many lightsabers, reflect darkside energies back at the darkside user, draw power from the users lust for battle, and tiptoe on the edge of the darkside.

and he is the most celebrated user of shatterpoint, the ability to get inside someones mind and find their weaknesses.

He tools sideous with these lightsaber tools, something that the most devastating enemy the darkness had ever known couldnt do, making him legendary in most people's minds (except mine because i will always have the fleeting impression that it was an act), but in this duel, sideous and he do not have a force fight, confirming that lucas didnt mean for him to be some kind of force power god.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
this is getting frustrating. hes not going to reflect a force drain (if this is indeed what you are refering to)

once, i made the mistake of backing revan totally in sabers (it was my first thread so give me a break) when there wasnt that much material to back my arguement at all.

maybe there just isnt enough Force Usage to proclaim windu the force beast you seem to want to believe he is?

mace's amaizing power is not in force, but in sabers. leave it that he loses in force, but wins in sabers just because of the power that kreia has shown.

force feats that mace has shown
riding a landslide
force crushing grevious
force speed

if youl notice, the above has not been shown to kill a force sensetive.

Kreia
Instantly tooled 3 jedi masters in the force (as these are mostly unknowns, their relative power to windus is subject only to speculation)
(sideous never actually was able to do anything like this)

years upon years upon years of studying both sith techniques and jedi tecniques. (relevant speculation=who knows what else she might have in the anals of her mind besides a powerful force drain)

screwed with pretty much everyone she met's brains.

she just has a more impressive owning-through-the-force resume.

mace is overcelebrated because
he made vapaad, the form that edges on the darkside to strike as if with many lightsabers, reflect darkside energies back at the darkside user, draw power from the users lust for battle, and tiptoe on the edge of the darkside.

and he is the most celebrated user of shatterpoint, the ability to get inside someones mind and find their weaknesses.

He tools sideous with these lightsaber tools, something that the most devastating enemy the darkness had ever known couldnt do, making him legendary in most people's minds (except mine because i will always have the fleeting impression that it was an act), but in this duel, sideous and he do not have a force fight, confirming that lucas didnt mean for him to be some kind of force power god on par with sideous, yoda, or even nihilus. this is not saying hes weak in the force, but saying his power is more in sabers, not the force.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
1. LK is actually almost right, Mace used the Force to "ride" the landslide, which is impressive, but not exactly going to win a fight. Yoda can levitate a crane and an X-Wing, but he cannot win a fight solely because of that.

Erm. Nope. He used a "force grip" to keep that landslide exactly where it was. Hence he wasn't able to disarm a child using the force because the result would have been said landslide crumbling apart, eventually killing the two children that were already walking over it.

So Mace was in fact able to at least hold several dozen tons (if not hundreds) of stone, dust and so on in place.



What?
Of course he hasn't shown the ability to defend himself against a force drain. Yet, if I may remind you, Kreia used it against three Jedi that were focusing on a entirely different target while she also had sufficient time to prepare the attack. This aside from the fact that, at that point in time, there wasn't any defence against said attack.

Yet one might ask why people like Revan (who apparently knew the technique), Bane (as his successor) or Sidious (who did succeed both) didn't just walk around and smite people with that force drain / sever ability. Can it possibly be that this wasn't that easy to use, much less in an actual combat situation? Can it be that the Jedi after KotoR times actually did have an ability to defend themselves against that kind of power. Because, apparently, they can completely mask their force presence as well as any sign of life emanating from them (Tholme performed that action during the Clone Wars). So one could ask, assuming Mace also knows how to do that, what somebody should attack with a force drain. The then non-senseable force connection or the equaly non-senseable life-force of Mace Windu?

Aside of that I wonder where Kreia has shown the ability to defend herself against force attacks at all (seeing how Nihilus and Sion did pretty much kick her ass through the Trayus Core) which leads to the question what she's going to do if Mace decides to force crush her (force fight) or simply speeds up to her and cuts her down before she can even raise her hand (all out fight).

Which are, of course, just possibilities.

I reread the passage just now, because it's been awhile. Pretty much, Mace does not "stabilize" the entire "hundreds of tons" quite so much as has been pointed out.

The something he did was to reach deep through the Force until he could feel a structure of brokne rock ten meters below him and five meters in from the face. He thought, why wait? and shoved.

The dirt cliff shook, buckled, and collapsed.

So initially, he Force pushes against some already broken rock to destabilize a dirt cliff which in turn helps corral the lava heading for the steamcrawler. A steamcrawler which, he admits to himself only seconds before, he would not attempt to levitate, thinking only Yoda would be able to do that kind of levitation.

Mace rode that crest while the wave sank and flattened and finally lurched to a halt, its last remnants trickling into a ridge that joined Mace's position with the corner of the steamcrawler' cabin. Nearly all his concentration stayed submerged in the Force, spread throughout the slide, using a wide-focus Force grip to stabilize the rubble while he scrambled down to the steamcrawler's roof.

So obviously the rubblehad 'lurched to a halt" before he was using his force grip at all. So again, the point remains that Mace Windu does not levitate or control hundreds of tons of anything. That's totally taken out of context. If anything, his doubt in carrying the steamcrawler puts a serious dent in his Force TK abilities, as he admits that Yoda could do this easily.



Again, the point remains: Mace hasn't shown himself combating people who know Sith Force drain on her level, nor has he shown any aptitude in deflecting Sith attacks of a similar nature. So it's burden of proof. Initially, people said "Mace will just survive it". Prove it. Force drain itself when used by Traya is always fatal. Ergo, it would seem that it would be fatal on most Force users seeing as it attacks their connection to the Force.

You can argue that the Jedi Masters were completely unaware of her, unprepared, and so focused on the already-frozen Exile but that's just rolling into massive, difficult-to-support speculation. They saw her, and had roughly the same amount of time to prepare that any opponent would have in a neutral versus setting. So unless its explicit in the source material or conclusively pointed out, it's silly to assume three Jedi masters were absolutely totally so absorbed in the Exile that they could not attempt any defense. The first thing she does is talk smack and then force push Vrook back like a ragdoll. If that isn't fair warning, I don't know what is.

Secondly, Traya using "prep time" needs to be substantiated. All we see in the cutscene is her listening to the proceedings from just outside of the room. She uses the same or similar attack later on against a dozen Sith assassins without so much as a blink.

Lastly, Traya says there are techniques against which there is "no defense". If you take this literally, then Force drain is unblockable. This may have some merit, as only the Exile, with her special condition, could cope with Nihilus. Nihilus, however, is an extreme example of Force drain, and as such may be using a level of the technique so high it cannot be blocked by normal means. And considering she taught Sion and Nihilus the technique, it stands to reason that if there was a sufficient defense, she would be the first to know.



We don't have any evidence that they didn't when convenient, but in any case, by simply not using it in most showings doesn't make the technique difficult by far. Exar Kun didn't blast the entire senate hall with his gauntlet, yet by all rights he could have. Yoda preferred to saber the clone troopers, yet he probably could have just force pushed them all away with ease. It's all in the mindset of the combatant what they want to do. Traya hated the Jedi, and wasn't one to really get her hand dirty. This is apparent by her manipulation of sentients, and the fact that she uses TK to fight in the final battle. Likely, if Mace got in close, he'd own her with his superior strength and brutality. It'd be no contest if he can close the gap without her pushing him back like a ragdoll or zapping him dead. But when confronted with three era-reknowned Jedi masters, Traya fried them and in the cut content, went so far as to toy with them extensively before killing them.



Firstly, the idea that post-KotOR Jedi can defend themselves against fatal force drain begs for proof, not conjectures.

Secondly, "masking" in the Force does not prevent force drain from ever happening, especially since it's a relatively passive power. When Ventress masked herself, Obi-Wan could feel her absence, even in a crowded pub. Traya herself is adapt at masking. She is effectively invisible to the Disciple, talking in his ear and making him think he's going crazy and hearing things. She is unsensed by the Jedi Masters only a room away, and in Atris' own compound she goes completely unnoticed. And she makes herself unseen to Sion during their first scrap on Peragus. So in a neutral versus setting, it's always apparent that the opponents are aware of each other, any attempt at masking will either meet with failure or be lost once they attempt to attack.

Sith Assassins mask themselves using the Force, and yet Traya overcame many of them.



Good question, and definitely one I've considered. Traya's force mastery is not something we can easily second-guess, and her mastery over former Jedi techniques and ancient Sith techniques makes her incredibly deadly and learned. She's also considered a Jedi Consular type in the game files, which marks her as a Force powerhouse. Sion and Nihilus overcame her easily, even though she was expecting them, but the main Force attack came from Nihilus, the sapper. She was broken, cast down, and striped of her power. Though the accompanying animation of Force drain is never shown, it's likely that Nihilus either overcame her with superior force power and then she became weak, or the exact opposite. All Sion did was work her over like a goon. I would say by virtue of her knowledge and status as a Force user (Below Nihilus, but clearly above Sion as she dominated him in the endgame easily, dominated Atris and the Jedi Masters, and damn near everyone else in the entire game) she would be above Mace Windu and therefore his force grip would be neutralized at best. The only person we see beating Traya in a Force duel is the same guy who eats an entire planet's inhabitants using the Force. That's something to be said there.

^what he said^.^