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I was wondering, Since Mace has like the best Saber skills there is, partially b/c he created his own unique highly difficult to master Style Vapaad and Darth Vader is supposed to be One If not The Best when it comes to the force.

Who would win?

Give reasons!!!

Mace would likely win. Darth Vader is no push over, but Mace is as Yoda says in Shatterpoint one of the deadliest jedi ever. No one Darth Vader has defeated would be on par with him.

Vader gets tooled in a saber duel but may win a force fight.

How do you figure? Mace can control an avalanche and force crush General Grievous.

Originally posted by Darth Rogers
How do you figure? Mace can control an avalanche and force crush General Grievous. The fact that vader ripped a huge bridge to pieces and used it as missles and the fact that he too has force crush which is prehaps more devastating as we seen him destroy palpatines medical room(made of duralium which is what grevious is made off) by merely getting unhappy?

How about being 80% as powerful as the most powerful sith lord in history?


I'm not arguing that this would be an easy fight for either considering both of their combat prowess and strength in the force.

Even if mace were to win it would be after a hard fight.

I didn't know about the bridge part. Where was that at?

And didn't Vader lose lots of mobility and potential when he lost at Mustafar?

Rise of darth vader.

Yes he did lose alot of potential, but that only limited him from becoming stronger, it did not really effect his strength in the force.

As for mobility, it is one of the reasons why mace would mop vaders ass on the floor in a saber duel other than just vaapad.

what about in an all out fight

Depends really.

Can I please have a link to the interview where Lucas said Vader is 80% of Sidious strength?

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Can I please have a link to the interview where Lucas said Vader is 80% of Sidious strength?

Find me Atlantis and I'd be happy to oblige.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Can I please have a link to the interview where Lucas said Vader is 80% of Sidious strength? That you will have to ask lightsnake and gideon for its source, i used to have it on my computer but i reformatted so i don't have it at the moment.

Vader would win, Mace is better with sabers, but Vader is stronger than him with the force. Unless Mace, learned some force lighting, in all out fight he would go down.

Originally posted by kiddo44
Vader would win, Mace is better with sabers, but Vader is stronger than him with the force. Unless Mace, learned some force lighting, in all out fight he would go down.


depends...
in the al out if there is distance between they vader probbably wins using the force, but if it turns into a saber fight, vader gets curbstomped.
Vader who is 80% of his master, who would have died if anikan had not stepped in. Mace's vaapad comes in very handy in an all out fight because of the darkside superconductive loop.

Master Windu hands down. May be not easy, but Mace beats Vader. Mace would use any force powers against him the same way he did to Palpatine. Vader is a good duelist, but with Mace's vaapad that is too much for Vader to overcome.

Windu would give vader a blow job in a saber fight, and would sh1tnipple his ass up in a force fight. He just deflects everything with his superconducting loop, if vader throws a push, mace would deflect it and send vader spamming through the air.

This has been done

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=461707&highlight=mace+vs+vader+forumid%3A86

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=453886&highlight=mace+vs+vader+forumid%3A86

Every fight has been done.

Mace kicks Vader's ass to hell.

I just read "hands-down" followed by "may not be easy." The whole system's breaking apart.

But yessir, Mace would win in a Force-fight, assuming of course his defeat of Palpatine was legit. If he can't beat someone with 20% less power than Palps, then... I dunno.

Sabers, uuuhhhh, strength is on Vader's side, mobility's not. Hard to say really.

if your talking Vader pre-suit then it's Vader, if post-suit, then its Mace

i dunno where "Wndu" and "Drath" come into it though

Originally posted by Stun
if your talking Vader pre-suit then it's Vader, if post-suit, then its Mace

i dunno where "Wndu" and "Drath" come into it though Please form an argument, mace would tool both vaders in a saber duel.

Mace would pwn in combat and might be able to block Vader Force-wise long enough to get in close.

Mace

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Mace would pwn in combat and might be able to block Vader Force-wise long enough to get in close.

Mace Good, make a claim now form an argument.

The only attack that Vader seems to use in combat is TK throwing stuff. Windo is agile/powerful enough to get around that. Vader could also use force crush, but I think that would only work on a vastly weaker opponent. With Windo's TK being able to lift tonnes of rocks in the CW's it can be safely said that he will be able to block crush.
A combination of Vaapad, Shatterpoint, and superior ability/speed/agility would finsh Vader off saberwise.

Originally posted by Ivalice
Please form an argument, mace would tool both vaders in a saber duel.
Its called an opinion. deal with it like an adult - got that?

Oh snap.

Originally posted by Ivalice
Good, make a claim now form an argument.

How? Star Wars isn't hard science.

Originally posted by Darth Rogers
Mace would likely win. Darth Vader is no push over, but Mace is as Yoda says in Shatterpoint one of the deadliest jedi ever. No one Darth Vader has defeated would be on par with him.

I'm not saying that Vader would win, but he has beaten some fighters who were close to Mace. He killed Dooku (said to have beaten Mace in duels before) as Anakin Skywalker, Cin Drallig as the newly christened Darth Vader, and the Dark Woman during the Jedi Purge. He also killed Roan Shryne, one of the "Old Guard".

Originally posted by Council#13
I'm not saying that Vader would win, but he has beaten some fighters who were close to Mace. He killed Dooku (said to have beaten Mace in duels before) as Anakin Skywalker, Cin Drallig as the newly christened Darth Vader, and the Dark Woman during the Jedi Purge. He also killed Roan Shryne, one of the "Old Guard".
To be fair, pretty much any Force User with any recognition of skill could beat Shryne. His saber skills were good but he sucked with the Force. Where does it say that he was on the "old guard"? that surprises me since he was so weak with the Force. I thought Council members had to be strong with the Force.

Originally posted by darthsith19
To be fair, pretty much any Force User with any recognition of skill could beat Shryne. His saber skills were good but he sucked with the Force. Where does it say that he was on the "old guard"? that surprises me since he was so weak with the Force. I thought Council members had to be strong with the Force.

I think that's a pretty unfair judgment. True, he didn't do as well as other Jedi when it came to fighting droids, but that's because his connection to the Force was weakened due to his lack of faith from losing two padawans. I'm not sure where in Dark Lord: The Rise of Dark Vader it says that he's one of the Old Guard, but I remember that Qui-Gon was one of them. There isn't any real evidence that he was 'weak' with the Force prior to his decline. Also, remember that by the time he was killed, his faith in the Force was strong again.

Mace if not the first, is the second best duelist of the PT(Yoda). His force powers are nopt far behind Vader either. Mace wins.

Originally posted by Council#13
I think that's a pretty unfair judgment. True, he didn't do as well as other Jedi when it came to fighting droids, but that's because his connection to the Force was weakened due to his lack of faith from losing two padawans. I'm not sure where in Dark Lord: The Rise of Dark Vader it says that he's one of the Old Guard, but I remember that Qui-Gon was one of them. There isn't any real evidence that he was 'weak' with the Force prior to his decline. Also, remember that by the time he was killed, his faith in the Force was strong again.
There is also no evidence that he was stronger with the Force during his "decline". When in absence of proof, the negative wins. His faith in the Force may have been strong, but his powers weren't. Overall he was powerful yes, but anybody with a name for themselves would have beat him like Maul, Asajj, Sora, Quinlan, Cin ect, that's all I'm saying. I didn't mean to say that that Roan was avg. if that's what it sounded like. And Mace would trash Roan easily so.

Originally posted by darthsith19
There is also no evidence that he was stronger with the Force during his "decline". When in absence of proof, the negative wins. His faith in the Force may have been strong, but his powers weren't. Overall he was powerful yes, but anybody with a name for themselves would have beat him like Maul, Asajj, Sora, Quinlan, Cin ect, that's all I'm saying. I didn't mean to say that that Roan was avg. if that's what it sounded like. And Mace would trash Roan easily so. Take note that at that time vader has yet to receive full dark side training as stated by RODV.

The true extent to vaders force powers is honestly unknown but theres enough evidence to put vader as a very powerful sith lord.

Originally posted by Tangible God
I just read "hands-down" followed by "may not be easy." The whole system's breaking apart.

But yessir, Mace would win in a Force-fight, assuming of course his defeat of Palpatine was legit. If he can't beat someone with 20% less power than Palps, then... I dunno.

Sabers, uuuhhhh, strength is on Vader's side, mobility's not. Hard to say really.

This argument is flawed.
Vader in his suit was 80 % of the OT Sidious who was more powerful than his RotS counterpart (logically).


Aside of that...
Please. Force fight? You might want to think about the fact that both participants a quite limited to TK applications of the force for offensive means - and both are able to block TK as well. So they are either going to play ping-pong with objects being pushed and deflected or they would attempt to force crush eachother - while blocking the attempts of their opponent to do so. No decission there.

Saber fight?
That will get ugly. But I think Mace is most likely going to win this. He's strong enough to defend against Vaders raw strength and with Vaapad and his Shatterpoint ability he has two advantages over the Dark Lord.

I'm assuming this is the OT Vader in his suit of course. RotS pre-suit Vader would be murdered by Mace Windu.

A little part of me dies inside every single time I see that percentage taken out of context.

Originally posted by 666.3
A little part of me dies inside every single time I see that percentage taken out of context.

In that case we all should spend more time taking that percentage out of context...

Eh. Give you a 6 for that one, Nai. It was too.. uh, expected I guess.

Originally posted by darthsith19
There is also no evidence that he was stronger with the Force during his "decline". When in absence of proof, the negative wins. His faith in the Force may have been strong, but his powers weren't. Overall he was powerful yes, but anybody with a name for themselves would have beat him like Maul, Asajj, Sora, Quinlan, Cin ect, that's all I'm saying. I didn't mean to say that that Roan was avg. if that's what it sounded like. And Mace would trash Roan easily so.

I'm pretty sure there's somewhere in the book that states his reactions weren't as fast due to his decline.

Oh, then I must've misunderstood you. But I don't see there being any proof that anyone with a name could beat him.

Mace might've been able to trash Roan, but Vader wasn't able to do it easily.

Originally posted by Council#13
but Vader wasn't able to do it easily. Simply because he has yet to receive full dark side training and the fact that he is still inexperienced,lacks mastery and strength in the force as opposed to OT vader.

So the duel between Vader and Roan shouldn't mean anything for Mace vs. Vader.

It does, well the relevant feats such as ripping a bridge to pieces and using the shrapnel as missles and the fact that he could use the force to cancel either forte or kulkas attempt to use tk to influence the course of vaders saber strikes.

hmm.... well this is hard because in theory, vader is the force child whos midichlorions are higher then yoda.

lets compare
vapaad vs form 5
mace
bridgeshrapness vs containing an avalanche
vader
total ****ing pimpedness
vader

vader wins 2 out of 3.

Originally posted by Stun
Its called an opinion. deal with it like an adult - got that? I understand your frustration, I really do, but as Darth Sexy has said multiple times, this is a debate forum. Opinion doesn't really matter here. We debate based on the logic and facts of the issues at hand (at least most of us). So while Ivalice's methods may be abrasive to some people, he's actually right in requesting proof or what have you.

Having said that, as much as i love Vader, I don't see him winning here. At least in sabers. Force would be closer, but Mace is no slouch in the force department. One thing that VAder has going for him, is 20 years personal tutelage under the greatest sith lord ever. He's learned incredible control and mastery of the force. I think that would be his only path to victory.

I fail to see how his tutelage under Sidious means anywhere near as much as it's been made out to in the past. Sure, Sidious probably possesses more knowledge of the Force than any other, but considering that, by his own words, he chooses to limit exactly how much knowledge he gives to his apprentices, to make sure they would never be able to surpass him, I don't think Vader'd be receiving the full benefits of his knowledge as his apprentice, say, in comparison to if he were apprenticed under someone like Naga Sadow, who possessed quite the knowledge base himself, and, unlike Sidious, was "far too generous with ."

That's true. But the flip side of that is that Sidious can teach him an immense amount about the dark side without teaching Vader as much as he himself knows. Plus, one would figure that were someone to challenge the Sith duo, he would want Vader as capable as possible (without surpassing Sidious, of course). But i do see what you're saying. I just think that would help Vader more than say, him developing solely on his own.

Agreed, it's definitely a plus. I love it when we agree.

no i think sideous is a gay overrated geezer with a lightsaber.

i just had to say that to stir up some conflict here!

i hate it when someone agrees with noobaris

vader kicks mace to crap.

Originally posted by 666.4
Agreed, it's definitely a plus. I love it when we agree.

Well, i have my point of view.

"Nebaris, you will find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on own point of view."

Vader takes this hands down. He beat Dooku at such a young age. Dooku was very almost a match for Yoda, and definetely in his league. So Vader has to be a match for Mace with lightsaber skills. Basically just because hes so damn powerful... hes got like DOUBLE the midi-chlorin count of Sidious! and has mastered the Force.

Also in Force powers hes almost a match for Sidious, so overall hes better and wuld win like 7/10 against Mace. He would have easily been a match for Mace in ROTS when he took down Dooku!

And although I agree his injuries might have limited his almost limitless potential, i dnt buy that he was greatly weakened and not as mobile or fast anymore. End of the day he still had the same midichlorin count, and its the force that gives them there mobility and speed, not their bodies.

Also General Grevious was much more messed up physically than Vader... all he had left was a heart, eyes and brain! lol! but we saw how fast and agile hes was, and im sure Darths technology was just as good. The Emporer would have given him nothing less than the best.

It was just a matter of no CGI in those days when the Original trilogy was made, and also Darth didnt need to jump around at super speeds. We saw Luke doing a really fast jump in ESB... and still he was no match for Vader. Vader could easily keep up, and could do those things if he needed to. In ROTJ when Lukes fully trained, Vader keeps up with him in a fast paced fight, and when Luke kicks him, Vader rolls back doing a backflip. To be honest thats about as good as the stunts and special effects in the original trilogy lightsaber fights got! lol!

Why did you bump this?

Originally posted by Ivalice
Why did you bump this?

I just read it for the first time yesterday. Just thought id give my opinion.

Ok no problem then. At least you provided an argument unlike some people.

Personally I feel that Mace would win.

B/c he is good enough to not get smashed by Vader in regards to the force, however Mace is superior in terms of Lightsaber skills & he also possesses Shatterpoint ability which I believe give him the edge.

Originally posted by Mr Marvel
I was wondering, Since Mace has like the best Saber skills there is, partially b/c he created his own unique highly difficult to master Style Vapaad and Darth Vader is supposed to be One If not The Best when it comes to the force.

Who would win?

Give reasons!!!

is this pre-suit vader?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER: Also General Grevious was much more messed up physically than Vader... all he had left was a heart, eyes and brain! lol! but we saw how fast and agile hes was, and im sure Darths technology was just as good. The Emporer would have given him nothing less than the best.


If I'm not mistaken, Sidious gave vader not top o' the line bionics for fear that he would overthrow him.

It states it in "Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader" I think.

That's exactly why. The fact that he wasn't Force-sensitive meant that they could get rid of everything that wasn't necessary, and put the rest in a shell that made him positively superhuman. The Emperor could've done that to Vader, too, but then he would've been useless; if he wanted more super-droids, he could have them made, but turning Vader into something like Grievous would destroy whatever Force potential he had left.

Originally posted by Faunus
That's exactly why. The fact that he wasn't Force-sensitive meant that they could get rid of everything that wasn't necessary, and put the rest in a shell that made him positively superhuman. The Emperor could've done that to Vader, too, but then he would've been useless; if he wanted more super-droids, he could have them made, but turning Vader into something like Grievous would destroy whatever Force potential he had left.

Very true.