Batman VS Captain America: MA contest

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Sado22
no sheild or any gadgets. just h2h fight to the finish.
both of them at their strongest incarnation.

~Sado

spetznaz
I've always maintained that Batman is the better martial arts exponent. Easily.

The thing that Captain America has an advantage in is the fact that the SS serum basically makes him immune to the effects of lactic acid buildup. In simple speak, this means that his muscles never get fatigued, and consequently Steve can fight at full-steam indefinitely.

That is the only advantage afforded to him by the SSS.

Now, some say that the SSS also makes him at the peak of human ability. That is very true. However, Batman is also at the peak of human ability ....the only difference is he took the traditional route instead of imbuing some secret Government formula. The two are more or less peers.

The only physical difference is that the SSS enables Steve to go all out and never get tired. That is something that cannot be said about Bruce.

Sure, Bruce can be able to go further longer stronger than most 'humans' (an inside joke at DC ....check out a young Bruce Wayne kicking mature trees asunder), but sooner or later fatigue will set in. It will just take much longer than it would another person (for reference check out KnightFall ....before Bane broke Bruce's back, he systematically wore down the guy by causing crisis after crisis over a several week period. By the time Bane caught up with Bruce, Bruce was thoroughly spent).

Thus that is the major difference between Cap and Bruce in terms of physical ability. Both have done insane physical feats, both of them have throwing and accuracy abilities that can make BullsEye nod his head a bit, both can take down trained spec-ops vets like they were chumps, and both are simply awesome.

Both are also 'peak humans' (although DCs and Marvels understanding of 'peak human' is very questionable).

The only difference is in lactic acid buildup .

And there is one other difference .....Bruce is easily the better martial arts exponent. The guy has mastered 127 different styles, including some eclectic stuff. Not to say Cap is a worse fighter .....but in terms of MA Bruce is better.

Does this mean that Bruce can beat Cap, or Cap can beat Bruce?

No comment on that .....all I am saying is that Bruce is the better martial artist. Depending on the day, Cap could be a better fighter (and the next day Bruce could be the better fighter). But Bruce will always be the better martial artist.

Phantom Zone
Originally posted by spetznaz
I've always maintained that Batman is the better martial arts exponent. Easily.

The thing that Captain America has an advantage in is the fact that the SS serum basically makes him immune to the effects of lactic acid buildup. In simple speak, this means that his muscles never get fatigued, and consequently Steve can fight at full-steam indefinitely.

That is the only advantage afforded to him by the SSS.

Now, some say that the SSS also makes him at the peak of human ability. That is very true. However, Batman is also at the peak of human ability ....the only difference is he took the traditional route instead of imbuing some secret Government formula. The two are more or less peers.

The only physical difference is that the SSS enables Steve to go all out and never get tired. That is something that cannot be said about Bruce.

Sure, Bruce can be able to go further longer stronger than most 'humans' (an inside joke at DC ....check out a young Bruce Wayne kicking mature trees asunder), but sooner or later fatigue will set in. It will just take much longer than it would another person (for reference check out KnightFall ....before Bane broke Bruce's back, he systematically wore down the guy by causing crisis after crisis over a several week period. By the time Bane caught up with Bruce, Bruce was thoroughly spent).

Thus that is the major difference between Cap and Bruce in terms of physical ability. Both have done insane physical feats, both of them have throwing and accuracy abilities that can make BullsEye nod his head a bit, both can take down trained spec-ops vets like they were chumps, and both are simply awesome.

Both are also 'peak humans' (although DCs and Marvels understanding of 'peak human' is very questionable).

The only difference is in lactic acid buildup .

And there is one other difference .....Bruce is easily the better martial arts exponent. The guy has mastered 127 different styles, including some eclectic stuff. Not to say Cap is a worse fighter .....but in terms of MA Bruce is better.

Does this mean that Bruce can beat Cap, or Cap can beat Bruce?

No comment on that .....all I am saying is that Bruce is the better martial artist. Depending on the day, Cap could be a better fighter (and the next day Bruce could be the better fighter). But Bruce will always be the better martial artist.

You cant prove that Batman is a better MA than Cap. Cap knows lots of styles as well. Batman fought Cap H2H and said it seemed if Cap almost had the advantage. Even without the SSS hes beaten martial experts and made Thunderstrike look silly. The SSS gives him the advantage without it it would probably be a draw.

Apparently it was stated in WW2 that he had mastered every style but I dont have the scan.

Silent Master
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/26/51111219_e11f72dd24_o.jpg

spetznaz
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
You cant prove that Batman is a better MA than Cap. Cap knows lots of styles as well. Batman fought Cap H2H and said it seemed if Cap almost had the advantage. Even without the SSS hes beaten martial experts and made Thunderstrike look silly. The SSS gives him the advantage without it it would probably be a draw.

Apparently it was stated in WW2 that he had mastered every style but I dont have the scan.

I can show that Batman knows 127 styles (I can even give you an ISBN number plus page number if you want to order the issue yourself from Barnes and Noble or Amazon)

I can show the martial arts lineage Bruce went through as a young man, and what he also had to go through again when he was broken.

I said that the SSS gives Cap an advantage, but only in terms of lack of fatigue poisons building up in his system.

Cap would ALMOST seem to have the advantage if they were equal. That is logical.

I would PAY to see where it says that Steve had mastered every style, but I am not going to hold my breath on you providing that

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by Silent Master
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/26/51111219_e11f72dd24_o.jpg Mew.

BTW, Cap used to have enhanced superstrength at one point in his career back in the eighties. Does that count as his strongest incarnation? Or are we really just talking about their most regular incarnation?

Phantom Zone
Originally posted by spetznaz
I can show that Batman knows 127 styles (I can even give you an ISBN number plus page number if you want to order the issue yourself from Barnes and Noble or Amazon)

I can show the martial arts lineage Bruce went through as a young man, and what he also had to go through again when he was broken.

I said that the SSS gives Cap an advantage, but only in terms of lack of fatigue poisons building up in his system.

Cap would ALMOST seem to have the advantage if they were equal. That is logical.

I would PAY to see where it says that Steve had mastered every style, but I am not going to hold my breath on you providing that

Look at the scan above. Even if he know more doesnt even neccesarily make him better because Batmans MA feats dont even come above Caps anyway.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Mew.

BTW, Cap used to have enhanced superstrength at one point in his career back in the eighties. Does that count as his strongest incarnation? Or are we really just talking about their most regular incarnation?

Didnt Cap use to have superstrength during WW2?

Erik-Lensherr
Batman.

spetznaz
Originally posted by Silent Master
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/26/51111219_e11f72dd24_o.jpg

Well, let me be the first to say that that post kind of knocks the taste out of my mouth!

I doubted that it existed, and basically dared Phantom Zone to produce a scan.

Well ....I had not even posted that reply before Silent Master posted said scan.

Good work PZone and SMaster, and yup ....you got me good.

Now let me go curl up in some corner (LOL)

Seriously ....good job. Always a pleasure when someone can knock one back with proof.

Phantom Zone
Originally posted by spetznaz
Well, let me be the first to say that that post kind of knocks the taste out of my mouth!

I doubted that it existed, and basically dared Phantom Zone to produce a scan.

Well ....I had not even posted that reply before Silent Master posted said scan.

Good work PZone and SMaster, and yup ....you got me good.

Now let me go curl up in some corner (LOL)

Seriously ....good job. Always a pleasure when someone can knock one back with proof.

Fair enough mate. thumb up

Evangel94
The serum does a lot more than prevent "lactic acid build up." It turned a dumb scrawny kid into a strategic tactical genius. It amped his mind as well as his body. Captain America isn't just "peak human" he is "peak human." And the serum keeps him at maximum human performance.

I am not saying Bruce is bad. By all means no. He is the best at what he does. Bruce trained his body and mind to rival and even surpass those of an olympic athlete, but the super soldier serum provides all that and much more. Bruce puts up a valiant heroic fight, but eventually he gets outlasted and put down by Captain America. Unfortunately for Bruce, Captain America is the best at what he does: being America's "Super Soldier."

-Evangel94

snoopdogg
Is being adept in all forms of combat being the same as mastering them? I mean Cap spent a majority of his years frozen.

severance
Come on this is not even worth debating. It has to be Cap. No one who reads comics seriously can objectively pick bats. Its clsoe but cap has better skils, speed, strength and endurance. Cap has the SSS and trains all day long every day. Bruce surely does not train as hard as cap because he has a multi billion dollar enterpirise to be involvbed with as well as being a superhero

starlock
HMMMM. i still think cap is way stronger than bats and faster...so i think its more than tiring muscles

A martial arts point system...batman gets the win...but this is more than that so.......

This fight is too close...will have to give it some thought

psycho gundam
captain america +'s
-captain is an american weapon, a one man army of sorts.
- he was "assigned" the task of taking out hitler.
-beat the black panther in personal combat
-only given a shield, imagine if it were a personal force field
-personally trains most of the best superheroes ma
-super soldier serum enhanced body, intensive daily training for hours even though he really can't weaken
-almost tireless
-uncanny accuracy
-peak human everything including thought processes
-fought along side wolverine as equals and is respected by him
-trained the likes of Buchanan "bucky" Barnes, later to become the winter soldier

batman +'s
-natural peak human=intense training
-master of tons of arts and some forbidden techniques
-many gadgets and deploys them with unnatural skill and accuracy
-silent ninja-like movements, attack, stealth, suit etc
-self-appointed one man army with great battle record
-trained the likes of Dick grayson, jason todd,(hush,nightwing) and other vigilantes

tough call but i (imo) would go for ...........cap solely due to the super soldier serum. i mean, a super soldier is just that, a super soldier.

maybe cap is holding back in someway cause in the ultimates he is pretty badass

psycho gundam
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Mew.

BTW, Cap used to have enhanced superstrength at one point in his career back in the eighties. Does that count as his strongest incarnation? Or are we really just talking about their most regular incarnation? that was the U.S agent, a power broker enhanced agent. he could lift ten tons routinely.

iceman24567
Originally posted by severance
Come on this is not even worth debating. It has to be Cap. No one who reads comics seriously can objectively pick bats. Its clsoe but cap has better skils, speed, strength and endurance. Cap has the SSS and trains all day long every day. Bruce surely does not train as hard as cap because he has a multi billion dollar enterpirise to be involvbed with as well as being a superhero Wow doesn't train as hard? Nah he still trains hard despite having his company how do you think he can beat the crap out of super powered beings above peak human like Bane or Killer Croc. Batman and Cap are on the same level but the serum gives Cap the edge. Like somebody said being adept and mastering are two different things.

Sado22
personally i give the slight edge to bruce on account of being the better martial artist. not only does he know more MA's than cap he also knows some lethal moves (of couse he won't do them here). now a simple question, does SSS offer some sort of healing factor? i was just wondering since cap seems to have insane endurance. of course its not like logan's or Deadpool's but does he heal faster than a normal human?

at any rate, the point i'm trying to make is that bruce can break Cap's leg or arm and just KO him? Cap wasn't "blunt trauma proof". just a thought though. i'm open to opinions.

I'm giving it to bruce 5.5/10 for the time being though.

~Sado

severance
Originally posted by iceman24567
Wow doesn't train as hard? Nah he still trains hard despite having his company how do you think he can beat the crap out of super powered beings above peak human like Bane or Killer Croc. Batman and Cap are on the same level but the serum gives Cap the edge. Like somebody said being adept and mastering are two different things.

Bane and killer croc are barely superpowered. My point is Cap has all day to train Bruce doesn't. Wasn't suggesting Bruce doesn't train hard. Also becaus eof SSS Steve can recover faster than Bruce from his training so he can train harder for longer. As he has peak human reflexes and strength etc. he will be better than Bruce at fighting it is as simple as that

Master-Borg
the longer the battle, the better odds of Cap winning

Bruce, if he doesn't hold back, can devastate Cap with his killing blows though

King_Mungi
Originally posted by snoopdogg
Is being adept in all forms of combat being the same as mastering them? I mean Cap spent a majority of his years frozen.

I don't think so, as even Moon Knight was said to be versatlile in all martial arts as well

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg236/MoonKnight616/MarvelSpotlight028-06.jpg

severance
Originally posted by Sado22
personally i give the slight edge to bruce on account of being the better martial artist. not only does he know more MA's than cap he also knows some lethal moves (of couse he won't do them here). now a simple question, does SSS offer some sort of healing factor? i was just wondering since cap seems to have insane endurance. of course its not like logan's or Deadpool's but does he heal faster than a normal human?

at any rate, the point i'm trying to make is that bruce can break Cap's leg or arm and just KO him? Cap wasn't "blunt trauma proof". just a thought though. i'm open to opinions.

I'm giving it to bruce 5.5/10 for the time being though.

~Sado

I think it has been discussed on this thread that cap knows at least as many ma as bats. My question would be even if cap jusyt knew boxing would that mean bats could take him. Knowing lots of martial arts does not make you the most effective fighter. Royce Gracie only really was adept in BJJ and he was unstoppable for a while

Master-Borg
Batman is def the better martial artist, I'm not sure about who's the better fighter though

severance
Originally posted by Master-Borg
Batman is def the better martial artist, I'm not sure about who's the better fighter though

Whats your evidence for this?

Master-Borg
Originally posted by severance
Whats your evidence for this? the fact that Batman specifically traveled the world learning all the martial arts by some of the best masters

whereas Cap seems to just train to fight

Sado22
i know what you mean. however, hasn't bruce faced tougher MA's than Cap. i'm asking btw.

~Sado

severance
Originally posted by Sado22
i know what you mean. however, hasn't bruce faced tougher MA's than Cap. i'm asking btw.

~Sado

Dunno

severance
Originally posted by Master-Borg
the fact that Batman specifically traveled the world learning all the martial arts by some of the best masters

whereas Cap seems to just train to fight

Well cap is adept at every martial art known to man (he even has his own style)
But I am not sure of your distinction here: is the best martial artist the one that knows the most styles or the one that would win the fight? IMHO it has to be the latter as this is the whole purpose of martial arts - its not just for posing.

psycho gundam
as a practitioner myself, i find that it helps to cut the flashy stuff out and focus on fundamentals. tkd is very flashy but mostly useless i found out during sparring. muay thai, savate, or kickboxing skills win most fights on the feet then wrestling and bjj on the ground.

in essence, cap is a kickboxing, acrobatic wrestler that doesn't tire so he may have an edge

severance
Originally posted by psycho gundam
as a practitioner myself, i find that it helps to cut the flashy stuff out and focus on fundamentals. tkd is very flashy but mostly useless i found out during sparring. muay thai, savate, or kickboxing skills win most fights on the feet then wrestling and bjj on the ground.

in essence, cap is a kickboxing, acrobatic wrestler that doesn't tire so he may have an edge

There is no may here. It would be close in some bouts but Cap gets 10/10 wins.

Master-Borg
if both fighters aren't holding back...batman wins via one-hit killing blows

psycho gundam
cap getting dim makked is kinda hard to swallow

Soljer
The title of this thread is quite misleading.

If this were a true contest of martial skill, I'd give the nod to Batman.

In a simple hand to hand fight, however, Cap takes the win seventy five percent of the time.

Soljer
Originally posted by Master-Borg
if both fighters aren't holding back...batman wins via one-hit killing blows

Captain America knows one-hit kills as well.

However, he doesn't even need them. If he doesn't hold back, he's strong enough to kill a man with a regular old straight cross.

tkitna
Yeah, if this is a contest of who's better in MA's, i'd probably give the nod to Bruce.

If its a fight to win, Cap gets the nod. Its like the fight with Iron Fist. Danny was probably better at MA's, but as Cap said, "your not near good enough" (or something on that line. I'm pretty sure the scans in Caps respect thread.)

CaptainStoic
Originally posted by tkitna
Yeah, if this is a contest of who's better in MA's, i'd probably give the nod to Bruce.

If its a fight to win, Cap gets the nod. Its like the fight with Iron Fist. Danny was probably better at MA's, but as Cap said, "your not near good enough" (or something on that line. I'm pretty sure the scans in Caps respect thread.)

Yea get the scan.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
as a practitioner myself, i find that it helps to cut the flashy stuff out and focus on fundamentals. tkd is very flashy but mostly useless i found out during sparring. muay thai, savate, or kickboxing skills win most fights on the feet then wrestling and bjj on the ground.

in essence, cap is a kickboxing, acrobatic wrestler that doesn't tire so he may have an edge

I completely agree with you, I,ve taken MA's for a while myself, and over the time that i have, I've learned that the more styles you know the weaker at them you become (Jack of all trades, Master of none). It would be impossible for a man to master all MA styles. I have a Kung Fu, and Judo background, and I'm telling you that it took me 17 years to become pretty ok at the both. Bruce can't be a master at all styles it would take him roughly 250 years to pull that off.

Cap should win this by attrition.

Soljer
Originally posted by CaptainStoic
Yea get the scan.



I completely agree with you, I,ve taken MA's for a while myself, and over the time that i have, I've learned that the more styles you know the weaker at them you become (Jack of all trades, Master of none). It would be impossible for a man to master all MA styles. I have a Kung Fu, and Judo background, and I'm telling you that it took me 17 years to become pretty ok at the both. Bruce can't be a master at all styles it would take him roughly 250 years to pull that off.

Cap should win this by attrition.

Yeah, and people can't fly and shoot lasers from their eyes.

It's a comic book. Deal with it.

darthgoober
Originally posted by tkitna
Yeah, if this is a contest of who's better in MA's, i'd probably give the nod to Bruce.

If its a fight to win, Cap gets the nod. Its like the fight with Iron Fist. Danny was probably better at MA's, but as Cap said, "your not near good enough" (or something on that line. I'm pretty sure the scans in Caps respect thread.)
Cap actually said something like that a couple of times during their fight(in the second and third scans)...
http://img362.imageshack.us/img362/5559/mansion05op9.jpg
http://img362.imageshack.us/img362/5097/mansion06qq7.jpg
http://img382.imageshack.us/img382/6294/mansion07wf0.jpg
http://img362.imageshack.us/img362/1672/mansion08gg1.jpg
http://img381.imageshack.us/img381/1833/mansion09pz0.jpg

Darth Martin
Batman is the more skilled and better martial artist. Cap's SSS gives him the edge here and should win the majority in a fight between these two.

iceman24567
Originally posted by severance
Bane and killer croc are barely superpowered. My point is Cap has all day to train Bruce doesn't. Wasn't suggesting Bruce doesn't train hard. Also becaus eof SSS Steve can recover faster than Bruce from his training so he can train harder for longer. As he has peak human reflexes and strength etc. he will be better than Bruce at fighting it is as simple as that Fine how about Grundy in most incarnations he is always above 50 tons.

spetznaz
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Fair enough mate. thumb up

Just went through some scans posted at the tail-end of this thread, and there was one with a very interesting statement by IronFist where he says that Cap's skills are basic, but that his speed and strength are just incredible.

Here is the said scan:

http://img362.imageshack.us/img362/5097/mansion06qq7.jpg

It appears that even if Cap may be adept at all and sundry fighting styles, his level of adeptness is not exactly at the highest possible echelons. It seems like it is his sheer physiological component that seriously augments his skills, enabling a person with 'basic skills' but great speed and strength to beat someone that Cap himself says is a good enough martial artist to be compared to Mantis.

Thus, it does seem as if Bruce Wayne is a better martial artist (in terms of skill levels), but when it comes to the better fighter then Cap starts to gain an edge.

This reminds me of another character that Bruce faces who, even though he may not be as skilled as Bruce himself, has such a premium when it comes to strength and speed that even Batgirl found it next to impossible to 'read' him.

That is, Deathstroke.

From the scan it appears that Cap is a Deathstroke-lite ....in that even though he is quite skilled, his strength and speed basically take that level of skill and turn it into something that is nearly unstoppable.

Daredevil1
MA Skill goes to Bats.

But Cap's phenomenal hand to hand combat skills plus enhanced mind, super stamina just aids him to much. Plus him being stronger, faster, more durable so on and so fourth.

Bats trained to the best of his human ability. But Cap was created to be a man unlike the world has never seen before. The maximum level of a humans potential.

Bruce puts up a better fight then most thats for sure. Cap 6/10

Mr. Slippyfist
Flip a coin.

Evangel94
Batman himself admits that Captain America can conceivably beat him...
http://img376.imageshack.us/img376/4300/17052894lg5.jpg

http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/3876/59810631dv5.jpg

xmarksthespot
Crossover. Meh?

Captain America wins because he has the advantage of no fatigue.

Silent Master
Actually, http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=8716901&highlight=Kurt+userid%

Evangel94
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Crossover. Meh?

I am not sure what you mean, but this is not like previous fan-voted crossovers. This is a Marvel and DC cooperatively sanctioned product. The very fact that they allowed this, shows both companies stances on the issue. Both are canon as well in their respective univserses since the event is later referenced in both the JLA comics and Marvel handbooks.

xmarksthespot
Originally posted by Silent Master
Actually, http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=8716901&highlight=Kurt+userid% Greg Pak thinks Hulk can beat everyone...Originally posted by Evangel94
I am not sure what you mean, but this is not like previous fan-voted crossovers. This is a Marvel and DC cooperatively sanctioned product. The very fact that they allowed this, shows both companies stances on the issue. Both are canon as well in their respective univserses since the event is later referenced in both the JLA comics and Marvel handbooks. Wonder Woman and She-Hulk can stop Surtur with the Twilight Sword?

Evangel94
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Greg Pak thinks Hulk can beat everyone... Wonder Woman and She-Hulk can stop Surtur with the Twilight Sword?

It's ridiculous how you actually don't directly address any of the points and just decide to subtly change the subject. If you think that attacking the author and using red herrings is a good way to establish a credible argument, then you are sorely mistaken.

xmarksthespot
Originally posted by Evangel94
I love how you actually don't address any of the actual points and just decide to change the subject. roll eyes (sarcastic)

A good way to establish a credible argument is attack the author and use red herrings. thumb up Marvel vs DC has been referenced by Lobo, Access has mentioned Silver Surfer in a Green Lantern comic. All of the crossovers are sanctioned by both companies and co-published or they'd violate copyright. Even the fan-voted crossovers are sanctioned by both companies and both companies agree to allow the outcome of the fan votes. Not all the fights in Marvel vs DC were fan voted. And I'm pretty certain other crossovers have been referenced in past handbooks. Happy?

Additionally being canon, if one considers it canon, doesn't necessarily mean that parts of it aren't flawed.

And I wasn't attacking the author, I was attacking the DevilHulkesque argument. Busiek is free to think that Captain America is more skilled, that doesn't mean anything more than Greg Pak thinking Hulk is a skyfather, on this forum.

Batman still loses. Batman is still equally if not more skilled imo.
Crossovers still aren't good references.

Sado22
which series is this from?

also bats is not saying Captain WOULD beat him. he said its "conceivable", which we all agree so far it IS. but the point of this thread is:
a) who's the better MA
b) who'd win in a fight.

"conceivably" they can both beat each other since its not a stretch to say that Cap can beat Bats or Bats can beat Cap.

~Sado

Silent Master
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Greg Pak thinks Hulk can beat everyone...

Kurt is the guy that wrote the scene in question.

xmarksthespot
Originally posted by Silent Master
Kurt is the guy that wrote the scene in question. I know... ermm

And Greg Pak thinks Hulk can beat Thor with the Odinforce.

And Tony Bedard thinks Superman-Prime can fight anyone up to and maybe including the Beyonder.

It doesn't really hold that much weight in my opinion nor on the board, compared to what characters have done. Equally skilled is probably as far as I would go with comparing Batman and Captain America - although Batman's more plausible.

CA would win because as spetznaz pointed out he doesn't fatigue.

Juntai
Fatigue doesn't always play a role in MMA, usually the better fighter wins, plain and simple. It can, but it's not always the deciding factor.

They actually had a science of the UFC episode with Tito, Couture, Rutten, at one point they were testing the build-up of fatiguing acids in Randy's blood, before he started, and after he was wrestling a guy in a chokehold, and the results showed it was LESS while he was active than it was in a standing calm state prior to the workout. This guy has had fights go the entire twenty five minute mark, and he was still as sharp at the end, as he was at the beginning. Tim Silvia fight for example. Yet, a few knocks from a better stand-up artist, like Liddell, and he's laying flat on the floor.

Royce Gracie and Sakuraba had a fight that last went nearly two hours, his fight against Shamrock was over half an hour before they called it a draw...but that kind of longevity didn't stop Matt Hughes from TKOing him with strikes in round 1.

Sado22
err....so no one answered my question: if Bruce breaks Cap's arm/puts him in submission holds, can't Cap tap out? smile

xmarksthespot
Originally posted by Juntai
Fatigue doesn't always play a role in MMA, usually the better fighter wins, plain and simple. It can, but it's not always the deciding factor.

They actually had a science of the UFC episode with Tito, Couture, Rutten, at one point they were testing the build-up of fatiguing acids in Randy's blood, before he started, and after he was wrestling a guy in a chokehold, and the results showed it was LESS while he was active than it was in a standing calm state prior to the workout. This guy has had fights go the entire twenty five minute mark, and he was still as sharp at the end, as he was at the beginning. Tim Silvia fight for example. Yet, a few knocks from a better stand-up artist, like Liddell, and he's laying flat on the floor.

Royce Gracie and Sakuraba had a fight that last went nearly two hours, his fight against Shamrock was over half an hour before they called it a draw...but that kind of longevity didn't stop Matt Hughes from TKOing him with strikes in round 1. That's true. Conceivably either of them could end the fight prior to fatigue being a significant factor. hmm

I think I'll go with an even split. Or perhaps a 5.1:4.9 as CA is still probably more likely to win any drawn out fights that they have.

Juntai
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
That's true. Conceivably either of them could end the fight prior to fatigue being a significant factor. hmm

I think I'll go with an even split. Or perhaps a 5.1:4.9 as CA is still probably more likely to win any drawn out fights that they have. Unless Batman hits him with a liquid nitrogen capsule and flies him to the arctic in the Batplane. stick out tongue


But yeah it could go either way. These are two of the greatest at what they do. I was just making some points.

Silent Master

xmarksthespot

tkitna
Originally posted by CaptainStoic
Yea get the scan.


http://img98.imageshack.us/my.php?image=capironfist2kg8.jpg
http://img205.imageshack.us/my.php?image=capironfist3hi6.jpg

thadarknite84
I think batman is a better h2h fighter because his style is more unorthodox than Captain America's fighting style and even without his equipment, Batman can still use his capes weighted tips as weapons against him

thadarknite84
Originally posted by thadarknite84
I think batman is a better h2h fighter because his style is more unorthodox than Captain America's fighting style and even without his equipment, Batman can still use his capes weighted tips as weapons against him

darthgoober
Originally posted by thadarknite84
I think batman is a better h2h fighter because his style is more unorthodox than Captain America's fighting style and even without his equipment, Batman can still use his capes weighted tips as weapons against him
Wouldn't Cap still be able to use HIS other weapons as well though?

thadarknite84
What other weapons do Captain America have besides his shield?

Evangel94
Originally posted by thadarknite84
What other weapons do Captain America have besides his shield?

This match is purely hand to hand. No shields or gadgets. But if you must know...



The 'A' on his forehead. smile

http://www.whatisdeepfried.com/MEDIA/captain_america.gif

Lord Feron
IN the scan on cap with him pointing to the A. isnt that the same captain that tangoed with the friggin hulk. Laid some nice blows and knocked the Hulk on his his ass may it be only for a little bit doesn't t that mean his strikes would pretty much devastate bruce? I know h2h is not a huge factor when ur talking to master MAs but it def helps. So what i'm saying that Cap will take the win if neither one has any sort of gadgets or weapons.

Lord Feron
sorry let me clarify what i said above "isnt that the same comic series when captain tangoed with the..." ment to say comic not same cap; any who carry on

darthgoober
Originally posted by thadarknite84
What other weapons do Captain America have besides his shield?
Well little known fact, but Cap actually carries a couple of things to use as "weapons". For instance, you know the wings on his mask? They're solid steel and razor sharp and Cap's used them as both weapons in battle and tools(to cut ropes and cables and such). The edges of Caps boots are also razor sharp, though to my knowledge all he really uses those for is things like cutting ropes when his hands are tied...

thadarknite84
Well if it's just a h2h fight, I would have to go with Batman all the way. They may both be peak human but there is a difference. Batman really has what it takes to be peak human and Cap was part of an experiment to be what he is. And like I said before, Batman is more unorthodox than Captain America in terms of fighting. Batman has MASTERED every known fighting style on earth and in a h2h fight with Cap. Batman only needs what can't be taken away...his keen intelligent mind to beat Cap.

thadarknite84
We're talking about the same Batman that took out Bane, Killer Croc, and the Man-bat. All of them have greater strength than Batman. And that's not even including what he gos up against as a member of the J.L.A. Like the 4 White Martians he defeated. 3 of them he defeated by using Gasoline and a to set a fire around them. Just one more example of Batman using his keen analogical mind

Mindset
Actually Batman taking on White Martians is one more example of Batman wanking by writers.

Symmetric Chaos
I've always felt Bats and Cap were equals overall. With Cap having superior stats and Batman having superior skill.

Originally posted by Mindset
Actually Batman taking on White Martians is one more example of Batman wanking by writers.

He had fire on his side every time. Plus they thought he was dead.

darthgoober
Originally posted by thadarknite84
We're talking about the same Batman that took out Bane, Killer Croc, and the Man-bat. All of them have greater strength than Batman. And that's not even including what he gos up against as a member of the J.L.A. Like the 4 White Martians he defeated. 3 of them he defeated by using Gasoline and a to set a fire around them. Just one more example of Batman using his keen analogical mind
Cap's list is just as impressive and he goes(or went I should say) up against people with a clear strength advantage just as often as Batman(if not more).

Mindset
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I've always felt Bats and Cap were equals overall. With Cap having superior stats and Batman having superior skill.



He had fire on his side every time. Plus they thought he was dead.

Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but I seem to remember him fighting them up close when MM was captured by them.

Soljer
Originally posted by darthgoober
Cap's list is just as impressive and he goes(or went I should say) up against people with a clear strength advantage just as often as Batman(if not more).

*cough*

Hulk

*cough*

King Thor

*cough*

Onslaught

*cough*

thadarknite84
Well this is a h2h fight and Batman is a far better h2h fighter than Cap. Batman takes it 7/10

Soljer
Originally posted by thadarknite84
Well this is a h2h fight and Batman is a far better h2h fighter than Cap. Batman takes it 7/10

Nonsense.

Mr Marvel
Originally posted by Soljer
*cough*

Hulk

*cough*

King Thor

*cough*

Onslaught

*cough*


WOW!!! I sure hope you're not implying that Cap has actually defeated these people. laughing

This is amazing, it seems as though people somehow think that Cap's artificially created Physique is the equal or better to that of Batman. Which i find hilarious laughing out loud .

Batman is a TRUE warrior. The man has attained a level of fitness that borders on Supernatural, a Mind as sharp as a blade and a motivation toward perfection.

I feel it an insult to compare Cap w/ his Super Soldier Serum to Batman w/ his talent and dedication. How could a man that has been hand fed his abilities and tactics even compare to one who has TRAVELED THE WORLD specifically to train himself to be able to handle any situations that he may face.

I'm sorry man but Training beats a "Silver Spoon" method every time ( assuming that the end results are the same).

I am willing to bet that Cap has never trained to the level of difficulty that Batman has, mainly because his serum doesn't require him to.

Also just because 2 people know the same style(s) doesn't mean they're equal, skill and talent and training play a HUGE role as well.

Milkie
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
You cant prove that Batman is a better MA than Cap. Cap knows lots of styles as well. Batman fought Cap H2H and said it seemed if Cap almost had the advantage. Even without the SSS hes beaten martial experts and made Thunderstrike look silly. The SSS gives him the advantage without it it would probably be a draw.

Apparently it was stated in WW2 that he had mastered every style but I dont have the scan.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/26/51111219_e11f72dd24_o.jpg

Adept doesn't mean Mastered, it means skilled. It's impossible for someone to master every MA known to man and that includes Batman and his 127 or whatever styles that he has studied. Do you know how many of those styles would be overlapping and basically the same? It proves nothing to master them all but to take unique parts of each one does.

Taskmaster FTW!!!

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Mr Marvel
WOW!!! I sure hope you're not implying that Cap has actually defeated these people. laughing

Would you like to see the scans?

psycho gundam
^no

Mr Marvel
Captain America lost to Wolverine in a fight. Most likely due to the same reasons.

Soljer
Originally posted by Mr Marvel
Captain America lost to Wolverine in a fight. Most likely due to the same reasons.

laughing

You really need to read up.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by psycho gundam
^no

laughing out loud

Mr Marvel
Originally posted by Soljer
laughing

You really need to read up.

Why do you say that?

"The SSS gives him the advantage without it it would probably be a draw."

This statement is complete and utter nonsense. The point of him volunteering for the experiment is b/c he was a Sub-par candidate to be a soldier.

W/o the serum I could beat him, Period. no Shield, no comic, Nothing.

thadarknite84
No not nonsense, it's a fact that Batman knows more fighting styles than Cap. And it's a fact that Batman is far more Intelligent. Batman is either the best or Second best at everything he does in the DCU. Unless Cap can channel his chi and increase his physical attributes to higher levels, Batman wins.

Milkie
Originally posted by spetznaz
It appears that even if Cap may be adept at all and sundry fighting styles, his level of adeptness is not exactly at the highest possible echelons. It seems like it is his sheer physiological component that seriously augments his skills, enabling a person with 'basic skills' but great speed and strength to beat someone that Cap himself says is a good enough martial artist to be compared to Mantis.

Thus, it does seem as if Bruce Wayne is a better martial artist (in terms of skill levels), but when it comes to the better fighter then Cap starts to gain an edge.

This reminds me of another character that Bruce faces who, even though he may not be as skilled as Bruce himself, has such a premium when it comes to strength and speed that even Batgirl found it next to impossible to 'read' him.

That is, Deathstroke.

From the scan it appears that Cap is a Deathstroke-lite ....in that even though he is quite skilled, his strength and speed basically take that level of skill and turn it into something that is nearly unstoppable.

Speaking of Deathstroke...

I find it kinda funny how Deathstroke came on the scene several months after Taskmaster.... I see Deathstroke as basically Taskmaster and Captain America in one...

darthgoober
Originally posted by Mr Marvel
WOW!!! I sure hope you're not implying that Cap has actually defeated these people. laughing

This is amazing, it seems as though people somehow think that Cap's artificially created Physique is the equal or better to that of Batman. Which i find hilarious laughing out loud .

Batman is a TRUE warrior. The man has attained a level of fitness that borders on Supernatural, a Mind as sharp as a blade and a motivation toward perfection.

I feel it an insult to compare Cap w/ his Super Soldier Serum to Batman w/ his talent and dedication. How could a man that has been hand fed his abilities and tactics even compare to one who has TRAVELED THE WORLD specifically to train himself to be able to handle any situations that he may face.

I'm sorry man but Training beats a "Silver Spoon" method every time ( assuming that the end results are the same).

I am willing to bet that Cap has never trained to the level of difficulty that Batman has, mainly because his serum doesn't require him to.

Also just because 2 people know the same style(s) doesn't mean they're equal, skill and talent and training play a HUGE role as well.
So basically, you're basing your judgement of the match based on your preference of Batman over Cap, rather than how the two actually match up right?


Originally posted by Mr Marvel
W/o the serum I could beat him, Period. no Shield, no comic, Nothing.

You've never actually seen Cap in action without the SSS have you...

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/7089/captainamerica378streetzz9.jpg
http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/5568/captainamerica378streetbe4.jpg
http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/6927/captainamerica378streetwk8.jpg
http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/8297/captainamerica378streetra5.jpg
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/1161/captainamerica378streetmd7.jpg
http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/1235/captainamerica378streetqk9.jpg

Silent Master
Originally posted by thadarknite84
No not nonsense, it's a fact that Batman knows more fighting styles than Cap.

Really, Batman knows more than "all"?

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/26/51111219_e11f72dd24_o.jpg



Stephen Hawking is far more intelligent than Mike Tyson.

Battlehammer
Originally posted by darthgoober




You've never actually seen Cap in action without the SSS have you...

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/7089/captainamerica378streetzz9.jpg
http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/5568/captainamerica378streetbe4.jpg
http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/6927/captainamerica378streetwk8.jpg
http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/8297/captainamerica378streetra5.jpg
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/1161/captainamerica378streetmd7.jpg
http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/1235/captainamerica378streetqk9.jpg
true, but with out the serum his body is still at peak-human he simply now needs to mantain it and loses his superhuman stamina.

darthgoober
Originally posted by Battlehammer
true, but with out the serum his body is still at peak-human he simply now needs to mantain it and loses his superhuman stamina.
Cap specifically noted that Crossbones was stronger than he without the SSS(third scan, last panel). That seems to indicate that without it he's loses more than just stamina.

Battlehammer
Originally posted by darthgoober
Cap specifically noted that Crossbones was stronger than he without the SSS(third scan, last panel). That seems to indicate that without it he's loses more than just stamina.

I could be wrong or it could have been an error by the writer.


either way I agree that mr. marvel has not idea what he talking about.




oh and did you complete the respect thread darth? And remeber to put in the section were capt was granted superhuman strength.

darthgoober
Originally posted by Battlehammer
I could be wrong or it could have been an error by the writer.


either way I agree that mr. marvel has not idea what he talking about.




oh and did you complete the respect thread darth? And remeber to put in the section were capt was granted superhuman strength.
It wasn't a writer error, Cap actually pointed out that kind of thing a couple of times.

No I haven't finished the updated respect thread yet. I finally had to step back and take a break from doing it for a while, because it was really taking all the fun out of reading Cap's comics. So now I'm just sitting on the 3,000+ scans that I already have until I can get around to going through his last 10 years worth of appearances(I'm going through them chronologically).

Battlehammer
Originally posted by darthgoober
It wasn't a writer error, Cap actually pointed out that kind of thing a couple of times.

No I haven't finished the updated respect thread yet. I finally had to step back and take a break from doing it for a while, because it was really taking all the fun out of reading Cap's comics. So now I'm just sitting on the 3,000+ scans that I already have until I can get around to going through his last 10 years worth of appearances(I'm going through them chronologically).
then I was mistaken.


dam that sucks lol. well good luck with it. need any help just ask.

thadarknite84
I see that even with out SSS Cap is still peak human, I'll give u that but I still feel that Batman is a better fighter

Mindset
Originally posted by Mr Marvel
WOW!!! I sure hope you're not implying that Cap has actually defeated these people. laughing

This is amazing, it seems as though people somehow think that Cap's artificially created Physique is the equal or better to that of Batman. Which i find hilarious laughing out loud .

Batman is a TRUE warrior. The man has attained a level of fitness that borders on Supernatural, a Mind as sharp as a blade and a motivation toward perfection.

I feel it an insult to compare Cap w/ his Super Soldier Serum to Batman w/ his talent and dedication. How could a man that has been hand fed his abilities and tactics even compare to one who has TRAVELED THE WORLD specifically to train himself to be able to handle any situations that he may face.

I'm sorry man but Training beats a "Silver Spoon" method every time ( assuming that the end results are the same).

I am willing to bet that Cap has never trained to the level of difficulty that Batman has, mainly because his serum doesn't require him to.

Also just because 2 people know the same style(s) doesn't mean they're equal, skill and talent and training play a HUGE role as well.

Do you dress up as Batman and pretend you're him? roll eyes (sarcastic)

darthgoober
Originally posted by Battlehammer
then I was mistaken.
Don't feel bad, the boundaries of were Cap's training ends and the SSS begins is always hazy at best. Not only does he make too many appearances under too many writers for Marvel to keep the story strait, he's also gone through SEVERAL periods where he was depowered(and several more when he was powered up). But yeah most often it's acknowledged that he'd be a fair share less powerful without the SSS. Not that there were any significant difference in the way his battles were written mind you, cause even without the SSS he took down nearly the entire roster of the Serpent Society just like he always did...


Originally posted by Battlehammer
dam that sucks lol. well good luck with it. need any help just ask.
Will do and thanks for the offer. I'll probably wait until one of the tourney's I'm in are over before I can go back to it though. Even my staggering amount of free time has its limits...

Juntai
Originally posted by Silent Master
Really, Batman knows more than "all"?

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/26/51111219_e11f72dd24_o.jpg
Batman is master of all forms, that's more Robin level. cool

King_Mungi
Originally posted by Juntai
Batman is master of all forms, that's more Robin level. cool

Yeah adept doesn't mean master, it's the same thing with what was said about Moon Knight

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Moon Knight was said to be versatlile in all martial arts as well

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg236/MoonKnight616/MarvelSpotlight028-06.jpg

Daredevil1
Originally posted by Battlehammer
true, but with out the serum his body is still at peak-human he simply now needs to mantain it and loses his superhuman stamina.

Nope his body is not peak human. He isn't as strong for starters and all the other benefits are gone.

Silent Master
Originally posted by Juntai
Batman is master of all forms, that's more Robin level. cool

Where does it say that Batman is a master of all styles?

thadarknite84
I for one do not dislike Cap, I just think that there is something that Batman has that Cap doesn't and when I say Batman would win. I don't think it would be easy.

Battlehammer
umm no one said you did if I recall corectly

thadarknite84
In "The Ultimate Guide To The Dark Knight" page 11, I quote there are 127 major style of combat. While abroad, Bruce learned them all, from Aikido to Yaw-Yan. His knowledge of so many varied disciplines has made Bruce an unconventional and Unpredictable opponent, quite capable of countering a Savate kick with a Caporeira dodge, than Kayoing with a paw-knuckle strike! End quote. Does that anwser your Question, Slilent Master

Battlehammer
good for him .

King_Mungi
1. http://x4.putfile.com/1/2500291329.jpg
2. http://x4.putfile.com/1/2500301888.jpg

shinrob
batman:
Basic suit-
Kevlar thread and carbon nanotube fibers-advanced flexible armor plating made from Carbon composites and lightweight metal polymers

Cape-
tears easily and sustains constant damage

Gloves-
The gloves are joint reinforced and the knuckles armored, which adds additional stopping power to Batman's punches and ensures his wrists and and hands will not be injured. Batman also has glove designs that incorporate fingertip blades and have joint armor-reinforcement in the glove, from the wrists the knuckles to the fingers. Additionally

Armor-
After recovering his spinal cord injury from Bane's attack, Batman reinforced the armor with a material to dampen shocks and impacts to protect him from such abuse.

Boots-
The boots feature a unique "slingshot" ankle reinforcement design that acts as both armor and as reinforcement for the ankle joint when kicking or landing from high distances

but keep in mind Batman keeps variant costumes for dealing with extraordinary situations



Captain America:

Powers and abilities-
no superhuman powers-
perfect" specimen of human
The formula enhances all of his metabolic functions and prevents the build-up of fatigue poisons in his muscles
bench pressing 1100 pounds (500kg) , running a mile (1.6 km) in little more than a minute
Rogers' battle experience and training make him an expert tactician and an excellent field commander
He is a master of multiple martial arts, including boxing, jujutsu, aikido, and judo, combined with his gymnastic ability into his own unique fighting style with advanced pressure-point fighting


MMMmmmm
skilled fighters as one of the best hand-to-hand combatants in the Marvel Universe


from what it look like even bat hit's him cap i dont think it would do much damage

Battlehammer
actaully if I am not mistaken when Capt bench 1,100 pounds he was given superhuman strength at the time.

iceman24567
Originally posted by shinrob
batman:
Basic suit-
Kevlar thread and carbon nanotube fibers-advanced flexible armor plating made from Carbon composites and lightweight metal polymers

Cape-
tears easily and sustains constant damage

Gloves-
The gloves are joint reinforced and the knuckles armored, which adds additional stopping power to Batman's punches and ensures his wrists and and hands will not be injured. Batman also has glove designs that incorporate fingertip blades and have joint armor-reinforcement in the glove, from the wrists the knuckles to the fingers. Additionally

Armor-
After recovering his spinal cord injury from Bane's attack, Batman reinforced the armor with a material to dampen shocks and impacts to protect him from such abuse.

Boots-
The boots feature a unique "slingshot" ankle reinforcement design that acts as both armor and as reinforcement for the ankle joint when kicking or landing from high distances

but keep in mind Batman keeps variant costumes for dealing with extraordinary situations



Captain America:

Powers and abilities-
no superhuman powers-
perfect" specimen of human
The formula enhances all of his metabolic functions and prevents the build-up of fatigue poisons in his muscles
bench pressing 1100 pounds (500kg) , running a mile (1.6 km) in little more than a minute
Rogers' battle experience and training make him an expert tactician and an excellent field commander
He is a master of multiple martial arts, including boxing, jujutsu, aikido, and judo, combined with his gymnastic ability into his own unique fighting style with advanced pressure-point fighting


MMMmmmm
skilled fighters as one of the best hand-to-hand combatants in the Marvel Universe


from what it look like even bat hit's him cap i dont think it would do much damage It wouldn't do much damage? confused Batman has done damage to super powered being with out his electric knuckles he would do damage to Cap no doubt about that.

iceman24567
Originally posted by Battlehammer
actaully if I am not mistaken when Capt bench 1,100 pounds he was given superhuman strength at the time. Really? I thought that was his general strength level nice to know.

Battlehammer
Originally posted by iceman24567
Really? I thought that was his general strength level nice to know.
capt gotten super human strength before which tends to be left out in debates.

thadarknite84
Originally posted by Battlehammer
umm no one said you did if I recall corectly
I never said anyone said I dislike Cap I was trying to say I do respect Cap. It's just that I see a lot people supporting Captain America on this thread. It's doesn't make sense this is martial arts contest and Batman is clearly the more complete fighter. Batman at least wins 6/10

Battlehammer
lol

shinrob
Originally posted by Battlehammer
lol


what is so funny ??? so i guess u don't like batman

it's not good to think one sided

Battlehammer
Originally posted by shinrob
what is so funny ??? so i guess u don't like batman

it's not good to think one side
oh I like batman, I just found his earlier statement funny.



Capt wins do to superior physical abilities.

Silent Master
Originally posted by thadarknite84
In "The Ultimate Guide To The Dark Knight" page 11, I quote there are 127 major style of combat. While abroad, Bruce learned them all, from Aikido to Yaw-Yan. His knowledge of so many varied disciplines has made Bruce an unconventional and Unpredictable opponent, quite capable of countering a Savate kick with a Caporeira dodge, than Kayoing with a paw-knuckle strike! End quote. Does that anwser your Question, Slilent Master

A handbook, well since you want to count those, Marvel's hanbooks list Cap's fighting skill at 7. Marvel defines 7 as mastering "all styles".

darthgoober
Originally posted by Battlehammer
actaully if I am not mistaken when Capt bench 1,100 pounds he was given superhuman strength at the time.
Nah, Cap was first recognized as having lost the super strength upgrade here in issue #218...
http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/1439/captainamerica218onedayff1.th.jpg

And the bench pressing feat happened way later in #402...
http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/466/captainamerica402manandge5.th.jpg

So unless Cap received some kind of upgrade during Galactic Storm(which is what happened in the issues preceding 402) that I'm unaware of that's just his regular level.

Battlehammer
maybe I am mistaken though I could had sworn he had it, well I look into it

darthgoober
Originally posted by Battlehammer
maybe I am mistaken though I could had sworn he had it, well I look into it
Are you sure you're not thinking of his "werewolf upgrade" later in the arc?

shinrob
ok let me take u guy's back in time to 1996 when DC and Marvel made 4-issue limited series

The series is written by Ron Marz and Peter David
Art by Dan Jurgens and Claudio Castellini.

Plot summary

Two entities that are brothers, personifying the DC and Marvel universes, become aware of each others' existence. They challenge each other to a series of duels involving each universe's respective superheroes, with the losing universe ceasing to exist

* Aquaman defeats Namor the Sub-Mariner
* Batman defeats Captain America
* Elektra defeats Catwoman
* Flash defeats Quicksilver
* Robin defeats Jubilee
* Silver Surfer defeats Green Lantern
* Spider-Man defeats Superboy
* Storm defeats Wonder Woman
* Superman defeats Hulk
* Thor defeats Captain Marvel
* Wolverine defeats Lobo

Other match-ups were briefly featured, including Steel vs. Iron Man and Hawkeye vs. Green Arrow, although the outcome is never revealed.


Graphic novels

* The Marvel/DC Collection - Crossover Classics, Vol. 1
* DC/Marvel Crossover Classics, Vol. 2
* The Marvel/DC Collection - Crossover Classics, Vol. 3
* DC/Marvel Crossover Classics, Vol. 4
* DC versus Marvel Comics
* The Amalgam Age of Comics: The DC Comics Collection
* The Amalgam Age of Comics: The Marvel Comics Collection
* Return to the Amalgam Age of Comics: The DC Comics Collection
* Return to the Amalgam Age of Comics: The Marvel Comics Collection



just to let u know the fight was fan voted

tomcat

Battlehammer
perhaps I am not sure. I think I own the issues so I look and see. It could be quite possiable that I was thinking of the werewolf upgrade.




PS: hows your sight doing?

Battlehammer
Originally posted by shinrob
ok let me take u guy's back in time to 1996 when DC and Marvel made 4-issue limited series

The series is written by Ron Marz and Peter David
Art by Dan Jurgens and Claudio Castellini.

Plot summary

Two entities that are brothers, personifying the DC and Marvel universes, become aware of each others' existence. They challenge each other to a series of duels involving each universe's respective superheroes, with the losing universe ceasing to exist

* Aquaman defeats Namor the Sub-Mariner
* Batman defeats Captain America
* Elektra defeats Catwoman
* Flash defeats Quicksilver
* Robin defeats Jubilee
* Silver Surfer defeats Green Lantern
* Spider-Man defeats Superboy
* Storm defeats Wonder Woman
* Superman defeats Hulk
* Thor defeats Captain Marvel
* Wolverine defeats Lobo

Other match-ups were briefly featured, including Steel vs. Iron Man and Hawkeye vs. Green Arrow, although the outcome is never revealed.


Graphic novels

* The Marvel/DC Collection - Crossover Classics, Vol. 1
* DC/Marvel Crossover Classics, Vol. 2
* The Marvel/DC Collection - Crossover Classics, Vol. 3
* DC/Marvel Crossover Classics, Vol. 4
* DC versus Marvel Comics
* The Amalgam Age of Comics: The DC Comics Collection
* The Amalgam Age of Comics: The Marvel Comics Collection
* Return to the Amalgam Age of Comics: The DC Comics Collection
* Return to the Amalgam Age of Comics: The Marvel Comics Collection



just to let u know the fight was fan voted

tomcat
I own it and actually there are two versions of it. One i which capt defeats batman and one were batman defeats capt.

so using that as evidences is rather useless, not to mention it was fan voted.

Papa Smurph
In a normal h2h fight Cap wins 6/10 due to SSS
You inject Batman with the SSS and he'd win 6/10 due to having more pure martial art skill

Cap without the SSS shouldn't really be brought in as a fight with him and Batman would probably go like his fight with Moondragon.

Daredevil1
Originally posted by Battlehammer
actaully if I am not mistaken when Capt bench 1,100 pounds he was given superhuman strength at the time.


Incorrect he received superhuman strength back around the the issue numbers of 150 or so.

His bench happened at # 402. It was pure SSS.

Soljer
Originally posted by Battlehammer
actaully if I am not mistaken when Capt bench 1,100 pounds he was given superhuman strength at the time.

Then....

Well...

Yeah, you're quite mistaken.

thadarknite84
Originally posted by Battlehammer
oh I like batman, I just found his earlier statement funny.



Capt wins do to superior physical abilities.
What is this about Cap having more superior physical abilities than Batman, they are on the same level if anything. But Batman has more fighting skills. Look, Cap can't use his shield and Batman can't use any gadgets. Well it seems to me that if you take away Cap's shield, it's going to hurt his offense against someone as skilled as Batman. And for one, where is this fight taking place, because if it is at night or in a dark area, Batman is going to get the drop on Cap.

Battlehammer
Capt is physically batman superior in every way and vastly batmans superior in stamina.

thadarknite84

Battlehammer
batman has never foughten for several weeks at a time are you kidding me?

id love to see the issue title and number were batman fights for several weeks of non stop combat

thadarknite84
Originally posted by Battlehammer
batman has never foughten for several weeks at a time are you kidding me?

id love to see the issue title and number were batman fights for several weeks of non stop combat
No Batman has not been in a fight that long, But it won't take him that long to put Cap down neither. What I said, is that it took Bane several weeks to wear Batman down by breaking out several criminals out of Arkham Asylum for Batman to recapture. And like I said before, Batman was very sick at that time but not in this fight. Cap is going down, just face it.

darthgoober
Originally posted by thadarknite84
No Batman has not been in a fight that long, But it won't take him that long to put Cap down neither. What I said, is that it took Bane several weeks to wear Batman down by breaking out several criminals out of Arkham Asylum for Batman to recapture. And like I said before, Batman was very sick at that time but not in this fight. Cap is going down, just face it.
What specific feats does Batman have that gives him such a clear majority in your mind? If it's just the Bane/Arkham thing I could just as easily point say that Cap took down most of the Serpent Society simultaneously without the SSS, and since he has the SSS in this fight he automatically wins.

Mr Marvel
Originally posted by Mindset
Do you dress up as Batman and pretend you're him? roll eyes (sarcastic)

If you have something to say to me say it intelligently. Because i strongly doubt that you would say that in person.

As to the matter at hand, I didn't make that statement as a signal of personal preference toward Batman. I said it because it is true.

"darthgoober" Posted some scans of Captain America fighting without his super soldier serum to boost him. From looking at the scans it seems that b/c of his "weakness" he is analyzing every move of the battle for fear that if he is struck it could take him out due to hi

Sado22
honsetly i'd rather dress up as Captain america. cuz then at least you can hide your embarrasment 30-year-old-in-tights-with-weird-bright-colors-thing behind a sheild.
bats can't...........and on top of all that he's got to stay in the shadows with a [email protected] like Robin puke

Mr Marvel
Originally posted by Mr Marvel
If you have something to say to me say it intelligently. Because i strongly doubt that you would say that in person.

As to the matter at hand, I didn't make that statement as a signal of personal preference toward Batman. I said it because it is true.

"darthgoober" Posted some scans of Captain America fighting without his super soldier serum to boost him. From looking at the scans it seems that b/c of his "weakness" he is analyzing every move of the battle for fear that if he is struck it could take him out due to hi his opponent having superior strength. That is a perfect example of what I was saying about the 2 characters in the first place, Cap had a serum that started him off "A head of the rest of the class" in term of every natural physical ability humans possess. At that point he trained and gained his skills and experiences.

While Batman is a human (though Incredibly talented) who, through pure Dedication, Talent and Willpower pushed his Body and Mind to the limits of human perfection in an attempt to rectify his own psyche by avenging the spirit of his parents through administering "his brand" of Justice.

When Batman fights he is constantly reminded of his limitations every time he comes across a meta-human opponent.

He always fights as analytical as the "weaken" Cap, b/c he doesn't have a Serum. His constant training and analyzing and improving is what makes him Batman. It is hard to explain w/o speaking face to face w/ someone, it is the "Intangibles" that you gain through the years.

It is sort of like comparing a Super computer's potential information processing speed with a human's ability to actually understand and appreciate that data.

Higher stats are good, however intrinsic knowledge is better. cool

spetznaz
Originally posted by Silent Master
A handbook, well since you want to count those, Marvel's hanbooks list Cap's fighting skill at 7. Marvel defines 7 as mastering "all styles".

It is also in Batgirl: DeathWish or KnightAlone. I'll have the page number for you tomorrow.

Phantom Zone
Originally posted by spetznaz
It is also in Batgirl: DeathWish or KnightAlone. I'll have the page number for you tomorrow.

Hes got 100 years!!!! 100.......years. No wait....sorry...my bad. sad

Sado22
TWO HUNDERD YEARS!!! mad

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by King_Mungi
1. http://x4.putfile.com/1/2500291329.jpg
2. http://x4.putfile.com/1/2500301888.jpg Where in those scans does it mention that he actually mastered the 127 styles? I mean, when the disc is done in its entirety, it even states that it only goes through the basics of yaw-yan, not the principles of mastery of yaw-yan... A lifetime of martial arts knowledge does not equate to mastery of all martial arts. Anybody got any other scans on this subject?

Phantom Zone
Originally posted by Sado22
TWO HUNDERD YEARS!!! mad

ONE THOUSAND YEARS!!!!!!! mad

Sado22
THAT IS NOT ENOUGH FOR FRANK TO MASTER A RING IT TOOK BRUCE ONE DAY TO GET THE HANG OFF?! DON"T YOU GET IT?!! mad

Erik-Lensherr
Comparing Batman, who was chosen as a Sinestro Corps representative for his sector yet his will power overrid his fear power, to Frank, is idiotic to say the least.

Juntai
Originally posted by Sado22
THAT IS NOT ENOUGH FOR FRANK TO MASTER A RING IT TOOK BRUCE ONE DAY TO GET THE HANG OFF?! DON"T YOU GET IT?!! mad He never got the hang of it. Never had it on long enough.
But the big arguement was simply that Punisher with a Green Lantern ring, regardless of skill, still has no shot against say. . . the JSA.

Silent Master
Originally posted by spetznaz
It is also in Batgirl: DeathWish or KnightAlone. I'll have the page number for you tomorrow.

So is Cap saying that he is adept at every form, the scan has already been posted.

Juntai
I've been searching for it, but it's a long process. But I'm sure there is a scan of Batman posing, and in the naration, it says he is a master of styles.
It's been posted several times, but this sites' search engine blows.

Lord Feron
Anyway back to the 2 guys having no weapons or gadgets. I believe that the SSS artificially enhances Cap's abilities in every way. To the level of enhancements seems to go beyond peak human almost. I mean Ideal human like bats can do amazing things. With the SSS it makes cap a head higher then what bats can do. As for skill since physical attributes don't always determine the win I would say one on one in like a city like arena bats would win. Bat is better at stealth and hunting/investigating there whereabouts of a opponent. If the arena was like a cage match the cap would win hands down because there won't be any tricks batman can pull to get a edge. Please don't take the term "tricks" in a bad way it just i can't think of a better word. Anyway MA skills seems to be debatable in the forum. Lets say they are the maybe same skill, possible batman being higher due to uncertain evidence of mastering 127 styles (sounds impressive but if cap knows maybe as much or close to it for arguement's sake) This is when cap's abilities come in. He is stronger to withstand blows and dish them out. His is faster to strike and to dodge, his agility and his endurance is infinite (might be a stretch but i think he can go a long freaking time).

Lord Feron
sorry i ment to say endurance alone is infinite not his agility.

Juntai
lol I was so about to comment on his infinite agility, and refreshed the thread and saw you post again.

Lord Feron
Yeah my bad lol

thadarknite84
Originally posted by darthgoober
What specific feats does Batman have that gives him such a clear majority in your mind? If it's just the Bane/Arkham thing I could just as easily point say that Cap took down most of the Serpent Society simultaneously without the SSS, and since he has the SSS in this fight he automatically wins.
I don't think so, even if Cap's stats are higher. This wouldn't be nothing new to Batman and you clearly do not understand who Batman is and how he fights. If Batman was not allowed to wear his Bat-suit than I might give it to Cap, but that's not the case. When Bruce fights as Batman, he used his cape not only attacking but for deflecting on coming attacks as well or a distraction.

Lord Feron
Would the cape, cap's pointed wings and pointed boots be considered weapons/gadgets? IMO yes, I imagined this to be like a UFC fight with no equipment to aid them.

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