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This is just a thought I have been playing with recently:

While I consider myself spiritual, I am not very religious. The other day I watched An Inconvenient Truth and I started wondering: Are we avoiding responsibility by placing our faith in a Higher Power? Be it Buddha, Jesus, Allah or Jah, The Great Turtle or The Source, should we not rather accept responsibility for our actions here on Earth, instead of praying to some deity to come and save us?

Is it possible that, like children who expect their parents to come and save them from the messes they get into, we are blithely destroying our environment simply because we have misguidedly and collectively decided that since there IS a Higher Power, it is that Higher Power's responsibility to come and rescue us?

Would it not be better for all of us to become adults and, like adults, to accept the consequences of our actions? When I think about it, I wonder if the world would not be a better place with a little less praying and a little more action.

WE are destroying our environment. WE are going to suffer because of our thoughtless, inconsiderate lifestyles of consume, consume, consume. WE are depleting our resources. WE are causing global warming.

It reminds me a bit of an old tale (I can't remember where I heard it):

Once upon a time there was a very religious man, living in a valley. A warning was posted, that a storm was coming and the valley would be flooded. The man stated that his God would save him. He refused to leave the valley, or take any precautions, placing his faith in his Lord.
Soon enough, the storm arrived, as he had been warned and the whole valley became flooded. A neighbour came past with a cart, carrying all his possessions and with his family on board.
"Climb aboard!" the neighbour called. "There is plenty of space!"
"No," the man replied. "My Lord will save me."
The neighbour passed, and the water started rising higher.
As the water started flooding his house, travelers fleeing the storm came past riding horses.
"Jump on!" they called. "We have space for one more!"
"No," the man said. "My Lord will protect me."
The riders passed. The water rose even higher, soon flooding his entire house, forcing the man to climb onto his own roof.
A boat came past, battling the waters, with the last few stragglers clinging on.
"Get in!" they called. "We can make room for you!"
"No," the man repeated. "My faith is in the Lord."
As the boat passed out of sight, a wave swept over the man, tearing him loose from the roof and drowning him.
When he arrived at the Pearly Gates, he indignantly demanded to speak to the Lord.
"Lord!" he accused. "I placed my faith in you, I was your most loyal worshiper, I believed in you, praying to you every day - and yet you left me to drown! Why?"
The Lord replied: "My child, I sent a warning, a neighbour with a cart, riders with horses and even, finally, a boat to rescue you! What more did you want Me to do?"

The faithful would counter that belief in a higher power does not preclude personal responsibility, and actually encourages it toward whatever purpose they deem fit (fealty to God, to make it into heaven, etc.)

More than likely, this isn't really a religious issue. It has more to do with diffusion of responsibility in large numbers, which is a social and psychological matter, not spiritual. The cliche story about a boy drowning while dozens watch, no one taking the risk of saving him and expecting another to do it....but on a larger scale.

"It is God's planet - and he's taking care of it. And I don't believe that anything we do will raise or lower the temperature one point." -Jerry Falwell

People are very resourceful. They can use anything to avoid responsibility.

Digi Mark:

You seem to agree and disagree a the same time. I concur that "belief in a higher power does not preclude personal responsibility," but my argument is that, as in your example of the boy drowning while everybody expects somebody else to take action, we put TOO MUCH faith in a Higher Power and we do not accept enough responsibility for the consequences of our actions.

I posit the theory that if we (as in the faithful, religious masses) had a little less faith in a higher power, we might be more inclined to start acting ourselves to protect our environment, since we would accept the fact that nobody is going to miraculously appear to rescue - we will have to do the rescuing ourselves!

Robtard:

That is exactly what I am talking about!

Mindship:

Ha! What concerns me, is that we might be forced to accept the responsibility. That for every action, there is a consequence. And we might not like the consequences very much...

Originally posted by Robtard
"It is God's planet - and he's taking care of it. And I don't believe that anything we do will raise or lower the temperature one point." -Jerry Falwell



Interesting theology.

That's a valid issue, but some of us are more responsible because of our belief in God.

Originally posted by Dreampanther
Digi Mark:

You seem to agree and disagree a the same time. I concur that "belief in a higher power does not preclude personal responsibility," but my argument is that, as in your example of the boy drowning while everybody expects somebody else to take action, we put TOO MUCH faith in a Higher Power and we do not accept enough responsibility for the consequences of our actions.

I posit the theory that if we (as in the faithful, religious masses) had a little less faith in a higher power, we might be more inclined to start acting ourselves to protect our environment, since we would accept the fact that nobody is going to miraculously appear to rescue - we will have to do the rescuing ourselves!

Well, I agree pretty much with all of that, since I don't really have a religious power that I answer to. I just don't see it as a problem that needs to be tackled from a religious perspective, and think that other causes for this are much more pervasive. The drowning boy is the cliche example for it, but diffusion of responsibility isn't (generally) linked to one's beliefs, but simply to the statistical certainty that apathy toward problems will increase as the number of people involved in perceiving the problem increases.

It's social and psychological, not religious. Most people have fairly standard levels of "feeling of responsibility" toward a given problem regardless of their religious bent.

Originally posted by Dreampanther
I posit the theory that if we...had a little less faith in a higher power, we might be more inclined to start acting ourselves to protect our environment, since we would accept the fact that nobody is going to miraculously appear to rescue - we will have to do the rescuing ourselves!
There's nothing wrong, per se, with having that faith; it just should not be placed in a supernatural parent metaphor. Taking personal responsibility is a mature act. "God" as concept needs to mature as well.

Question at large (if this is not too off topic): Is there a difference between being responsible for a consequence and being at fault?

DigiMark:

Okay, I think I see your point: For you the issue of evading responsibility is not necessarily a religious issue, but rather a general human trait. Well, in this instance I find myself agreeing and disagreeing.

What I noticed is that predominantly, most faiths (with a few rare exceptions) tend to portray their deity as an all-powerful, omniscient, responsible father figure with a plan for all of us. THEREFORE we tend to act like irresponsible children, because, just like children, we figure the grown-ups (or in this case, the Grown-up) are taking care of things, leaving us free to play and evade responsibility as long as we like.

But, if we stop putting our faith in some unfathomable father-figure, perhaps we will be able to rid ourselves of this human trait of irresponsibility.

Or, to put it another way: I am starting to form the opinion that our tendency towards religion is what is CAUSING our general human tendency to lean towards apathy, diffusion of responsibility and to try and avoid the consequences of our actions.

A metaphor might be of a child who tends to believe that a father is smarter, stronger and wiser than himself, and therefore capable of handling all problems, until that child starts a family himself and realise that all the answers are not miraculously forthcoming, but rather a result of simply forcing yourself to be more thoughtful, considerate and respectful of others. That all of us can be fathers, it is simply a matter of assuming responsibility.

Mindship:

I started teaching at a school recently (after a long time working for a university), and I think that your question specifically is one that I try to address with my classes as frequently as possible: I tell my learners that all of us are human, that if we never made mistakes, we would all be perfect and able to walk on water and turn water into wine.

What is rather more important, I emphasise, is that when you are at fault you acknowledge that fact and that instead of trying to evade responsibility, you try to learn from your mistakes and that you do not run away from the consequences of your actions.

Believing in God may releive major stress, but unless you're the type to "leave everything to God", you're not necessarily alleviating responsibility.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Well, I agree pretty much with all of that, since I don't really have a religious power that I answer to. I just don't see it as a problem that needs to be tackled from a religious perspective, and think that other causes for this are much more pervasive. The drowning boy is the cliche example for it, but diffusion of responsibility isn't (generally) linked to one's beliefs, but simply to the statistical certainty that apathy toward problems will increase as the number of people involved in perceiving the problem increases.

It's social and psychological, not religious. Most people have fairly standard levels of "feeling of responsibility" toward a given problem regardless of their religious bent. i think your wrong here. perhaps your misunderstanding the point? to my understanding is, her message is,with to much faith in god, our responsibility is lessened. ive felt this for a long time. it applies perfectly to muslims. god has TOLD me to blow up this van and kill 30 people therefore it is ok, is difinitely shirking responsibility. its not his fault its "gods."

i've had a similar idea/feeling a while ago and kinda forgot tot write it down, but i completely agree. to an extent religion is a scapegoat to do things you normally would not be able to do. IE: the crusades. without religious authority giving the go ahead, this wouldnt have been allowed.

f

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
Believing in God may releive major stress, but unless you're the type to "leave everything to God", you're not necessarily alleviating responsibility. untrue. what if your a pregnant woman and you drink alot of alchohol and do drugs. your baby dies, but its not because of you and your abuse of drugs and alchohol, no its "gods" fault.

Originally posted by chickenlover98
her message is,

her message?

HER message?!

Originally posted by chickenlover98
untrue. what if your pregnant and you drink alot of alchohol and do drugs. your baby dies, but its not because of you, no its "gods" fault.


What ? I didn't say that.



I said if you are the type of person that "leaves everything to God", then you are not taking responsibility for your own life.


However, if you beleive in God, because it comforts you, you're not alleviating responsibility. Drinking and doing drugs is an irresponsible behavior on its own, and beleiving in God or not has nothing to do with this.

Originally posted by Dreampanther
her message?

HER message?!

my bad man, im sick. i have......teh aids. lol jk but sresly i have a cold ma fault

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
What ? I didn't say that.



I said if you are the type of person that "leaves everything to God", then you are not taking responsibility for your own life.


However, if you beleive in God, because it comforts you, you're not alleviating responsibility. Drinking and doing drugs is an irresponsible behavior on its own, and beleiving in God or not has nothing to do with this. oh i agree, but im saying if she believes it wasnt the drugs and alchohol that killed her unborn son, what if she believed it was in gods plan?

Originally posted by chickenlover98
untrue. what if your a pregnant woman and you drink alot of alchohol and do drugs. your baby dies, but its not because of you and your abuse of drugs and alchohol, no its "gods" fault.
Are you tired of being dumb yet?

Wishful thinking. Just like wishing for an afterlife, it's a devaluing of this life.

Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Are you tired of being dumb yet? u can be a douche sometimes u know that right?

chickenlover:

No worries. What you said about the Christian Crusades and the Muslim Jihad struck a chord. It is very similar, in my opinion, to many of the Nazis' defense when accused of crimes against humanity:
"We were just following orders!"

The sooner we all learn to stop shifting responsibility, in my opinion, be it to a higher power or a Higher Power, the better off we would all be.

I'm getting a little off-topic here, but in a sense, I don't really blame Robert Mugabe for the terrible atrocities he has committed against the people of Zimbabwe. Yes, he is a terrible, selfish, uncaring and thoughtless tyrant, but so what? There are thousands of his ilk. Rather, I blame the people of Zimbabwe for ALLOWING him to retain power for so long.

I want to shout to them: "Stop blaming him! Stop laying all the responsibility on his shoulders! There are millions of you and only one of him! Why do you ALLOW him to keep on getting away with it? Why don't you start taking responsibility for your OWN destiny!?"

Sorry, just a mini-rant - it's getting a bit late here and I suppose I should start getting ready for bed...

Thanks for everybody's contributions - hope we can continue this tomorrow!

I wouldn't say that believing in God is the same as avoiding responsibility as much as I would say believing in God is a way to feel less guilty about avoiding responsibility. Not that all religious people are in it for the forgiveness, but some definitely are because of the bad choices they made in there lives that are so f*cked up.

Originally posted by Dreampanther
chickenlover:

No worries. What you said about the Christian Crusades and the Muslim Jihad struck a chord. It is very similar, in my opinion, to many of the Nazis' defense when accused of crimes against humanity:
"We were just following orders!"

The sooner we all learn to stop shifting responsibility, in my opinion, be it to a higher power or a Higher Power, the better off we would all be.

I'm getting a little off-topic here, but in a sense, I don't really blame Robert Mugabe for the terrible atrocities he has committed against the people of Zimbabwe. Yes, he is a terrible, selfish, uncaring and thoughtless tyrant, but so what? There are thousands of his ilk. Rather, I blame the people of Zimbabwe for ALLOWING him to retain power for so long.

I want to shout to them: "Stop blaming him! Stop laying all the responsibility on his shoulders! There are millions of you and only one of him! Why do you ALLOW him to keep on getting away with it? Why don't you start taking responsibility for your OWN destiny!?"

Sorry, just a mini-rant - it's getting a bit late here and I suppose I should start getting ready for bed...

Thanks for everybody's contributions - hope we can continue this tomorrow! thx for gettin my point.

oh 1 more example, the idea that every sin can be forgiven in the christian religion, by going to confession. that displaces your responsibility with the matter. just because u tell a priest does not excuse you for your crimes, but it is portrayed

Originally posted by Dreampanther
I'm getting a little off-topic here, but in a sense, I don't really blame Robert Mugabe for the terrible atrocities he has committed against the people of Zimbabwe.

Off topic??? NOOOOO!

Originally posted by queeq
Off topic??? NOOOOO!

Originally posted by chickenlover98
u can be a douche sometimes u know that right?
I'm well aware.

Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
I'm well aware. just makin sure u knew

He does now.

Originally posted by queeq
He does now. damn right

Originally posted by chickenlover98
i think your wrong here. perhaps your misunderstanding the point? to my understanding is, her message is,with to much faith in god, our responsibility is lessened. ive felt this for a long time. it applies perfectly to muslims. god has TOLD me to blow up this van and kill 30 people therefore it is ok, is difinitely shirking responsibility. its not his fault its "gods."

i've had a similar idea/feeling a while ago and kinda forgot tot write it down, but i completely agree. to an extent religion is a scapegoat to do things you normally would not be able to do. IE: the crusades. without religious authority giving the go ahead, this wouldnt have been allowed.

That's simply religious conviction outweighing any perceived duty to the greater good, or rather replacing it because they see their conviction as serving the greater good. In your scenarios, they aren't shirking responsibility because of God, they simply have different priorities. This thread is more about apathy than extremism.

So your comments are valid, just out of context.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
That's simply religious conviction outweighing any perceived duty to the greater good, or rather replacing it because they see their conviction as serving the greater good. In your scenarios, they aren't shirking responsibility because of God, they simply have different priorities. This thread is more about apathy than extremism.

So your comments are valid, just out of context. i half agree half not. because it does apply. if a muslim straps himself with dynamite and runs into a crowd and blows himself up he isnt taking responsibility for what he's doing, because he's doing it because his religion tells him to. therefore to him, he isnt completely responsible for their deaths

Originally posted by chickenlover98
i half agree half not. because it does apply. if a muslim straps himself with dynamite and runs into a crowd and blows himself up he isnt taking responsibility for what he's doing, because he's doing it because his religion tells him to. therefore to him, he isnt completely responsible for their deaths

I agree, actually. But the point was that it's a different situation entirely from the phenomenon that the thread deals with. It talks about apathy toward problems in society because of beliefs, rather than this...which attempts to "solve" the problems but in very wrong ways.

It's the difference between a little kid not doing a puzzle when his mother tells him to, and another kid shooting his mom when she tells him to. Say what you will about the second kid, but he's not apathetic.

313

No its not. Its because thats how you were raised.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
I agree, actually. But the point was that it's a different situation entirely from the phenomenon that the thread deals with. It talks about apathy toward problems in society because of beliefs, rather than this...which attempts to "solve" the problems but in very wrong ways.

It's the difference between a little kid not doing a puzzle when his mother tells him to, and another kid shooting his mom when she tells him to. Say what you will about the second kid, but he's not apathetic.

313 lol at that analogy

Originally posted by chickenlover98
lol at that analogy

lol @ yur face. 313

Originally posted by dadudemon
lol @ yur face. 313 oh well, your mom didnt say that last night.

Originally posted by chickenlover98
oh well, your mom didnt say that last night.

really?

how much do I owe ya?

Originally posted by dadudemon
really?

how much do I owe ya? 100 bucks

Originally posted by chickenlover98
100 bucks

*pays mother lover $100*


That's it!!?!?!???!??!? HAHA!!!


















































oh the things I do to keep my mother happy.



Did you give her surprise buttsecks?
http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z238/dadudemon/Buttsex-1.jpg

no cause that was extra

Originally posted by chickenlover98
100 bucks

$100 SOD got $500.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
$100 SOD got $500. that tells me something about ur negotiatin skillz

http://www.qwantz.com/archive/000118.html

Somewhat pertinent.

lol rediculus link digi. also not that funny

I loved it, mostly because it describes a few particularly obnoxious Christians and Mormons in my acquaintance.

Originally posted by Quark_666
I loved it, mostly because it describes a few particularly obnoxious Christians and Mormons in my acquaintance. wasnt that great

Originally posted by chickenlover98
wasnt that great

sex with him too?

Originally posted by chickenlover98
that tells me something about ur negotiatin skillz

"ur"?

For the most part, some people are just irresponsible, ignorant or careless. To blame religion for this, strikes me as silly. I dont believe in God, but i think Religion has given us much. Each society was built on religion of some kind. I think religion gets demonized to much these days. It isnt the religion causing hardache, but what man does with it. Should we blame science and intelligence for the invention of the Atomic bomb? Most religions promote self exploration and peace...,is that a bad thing?
I subscribe to the duality of man. There are positive and negative energies within us all. Whichever side of the yin-yang inspires hate, greed and destruction is, often, more appealing. Doing the right thing can be arduous and complicated. Religion, sometimes, can be a guide on how to do the right thing. That darker and more appealing side of man, however, told someone one day that Religion can be exploited to hold power over man. Just like when Science told that man that he could make an ultimate weapon of destruction.

Good post.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
"ur"? aim speak my bad old man

Originally posted by chickenlover98
aim speak my bad old man You ought to remind people more often who your English teacher is.

Originally posted by Quark_666
You ought to remind people more often who your English teacher is. currently its some barbie doll in her 30's who's extremely annoying. id much rather digi teach me

Faith in God does not relieve me of personal responsibility. Rather, it is God who holds me personally responsible. Without an objective standard by which to measure, it is impossible to hold anyone responsible for anything. As a Christian, the character of my God sets that standard.

Originally posted by chickenlover98
currently its some barbie doll in her 30's who's extremely annoying. id much rather digi teach me

Something tells me I wouldn't want you in class ( ) but thanks for the vote of confidence.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Something tells me I wouldn't want you in class ( ) but thanks for the vote of confidence. hey hey, im not a bad kid in school. plus who the ****s a dick to a nice teacher? if u came to our school id hook u up wit her (im a nerdy 16 year old, you think people act like this in real life?)

Originally posted by Tim Rout
Faith in God does not relieve me of personal responsibility. Rather, it is God who holds me personally responsible. Without an objective standard by which to measure, it is impossible to hold anyone responsible for anything. As a Christian, the character of my God sets that standard. your gods values were created from the men of that time. they gave him laws that they thought were right as a standard for others to follow. you are following mans directive not gods

Originally posted by chickenlover98
your gods values were created from the men of that time. they gave him laws that they thought were right as a standard for others to follow. you are following mans directive not gods
An interesting hypothesis. Prove it!

Originally posted by Tim Rout
An interesting hypothesis. Prove it! Theologically, philosophically or scientifically?

Originally posted by Tim Rout
An interesting hypothesis. Prove it! ok. the bible was written by man. clearly we can see that man has attributed their own characteristics and faults to "god" its evident that they tried to create a being who in their minds was perfect, yet we clearly see many flaws

Originally posted by chickenlover98
ok. the bible was written by man. clearly we can see that man has attributed their own characteristics and faults to "god" its evident that they tried to create a being who in their minds was perfect, yet we clearly see many flaws

Two questions:

1. While acknowledging that the Bible was clearly written by human authors, how does this disprove the Christian assertion that it was also inspired by God?

2. By what standard (beyond your own subjective opinion) have you determined that the God of the Bible is flawed?

Originally posted by Tim Rout
Two questions:

1. While acknowledging that the Bible was clearly written by human authors, how does this disprove the Christian assertion that it was also inspired by God?

2. By what standard (beyond your own subjective opinion) have you determined that the God of the Bible is flawed? ok ill go by your logic on this one. humans are full of sin, and therefore fallible. anything a human says may be twisted or taken out of context or outright lies. therefore one cannot consider the bible a truthful "word of god." it disproves it because there is no proof of god, which you have admitted before. whether it was "inspired" means nothing, seeing as it was not written by god himself, it cannot be taken as the literal word of god. now to say the ten commandments are the word of god is acceptable(if i believed in them) because they were handed to moses, directly from god.

2. i have based my subjective opinion off of logic and those around me. it is clear that he has many flaws, such as love, and incomplete justice, and many out right cases of unfairness. never would a perfect or loving god ever hurt or torment its own creations(story of job) or force them to be slaves(israelites) when he himself could have easily freed them. a perfect god would not need worship to prove himself. nor would a perfect god even create anything because it is perfect. you may say perfection is subjective, but then what in this world isnt? it is clear that he cannot satisfy everyone, which yet again nullifies him the chance of being perfect. it is very clear how imperfect your god really is

Originally posted by chickenlover98
ok ill go by your logic on this one. humans are full of sin, and therefore fallible. anything a human says may be twisted or taken out of context or outright lies. therefore one cannot consider the bible a truthful "word of god." it disproves it because there is no proof of god, which you have admitted before. whether it was "inspired" means nothing, seeing as it was not written by god himself, it cannot be taken as the literal word of god. now to say the ten commandments are the word of god is acceptable(if i believed in them) because they were handed to moses, directly from god.Totally agree with you there.

Originally posted by chickenlover98
2. i have based my subjective opinion off of logic and those around me. it is clear that he has many flaws, such as love, and incomplete justice, and many out right cases of unfairness. never would a perfect or loving god ever hurt or torment its own creations(story of job) or force them to be slaves(israelites) when he himself could have easily freed them. Totally disagree with you there. It all balances out in the afterlife...God is eventually merciful.

Originally posted by Dreampanther
This is just a thought I have been playing with recently:

While I consider myself spiritual, I am not very religious. The other day I watched An Inconvenient Truth and I started wondering: Are we avoiding responsibility by placing our faith in a Higher Power? Be it Buddha, Jesus, Allah or Jah, The Great Turtle or The Source, should we not rather accept responsibility for our actions here on Earth, instead of praying to some deity to come and save us?

Is it possible that, like children who expect their parents to come and save them from the messes they get into, we are blithely destroying our environment simply because we have misguidedly and collectively decided that since there IS a Higher Power, it is that Higher Power's responsibility to come and rescue us?

Would it not be better for all of us to become adults and, like adults, to accept the consequences of our actions? When I think about it, I wonder if the world would not be a better place with a little less praying and a little more action.

WE are destroying our environment. WE are going to suffer because of our thoughtless, inconsiderate lifestyles of consume, consume, consume. WE are depleting our resources. WE are causing global warming.

It reminds me a bit of an old tale (I can't remember where I heard it):

Once upon a time there was a very religious man, living in a valley. A warning was posted, that a storm was coming and the valley would be flooded. The man stated that his God would save him. He refused to leave the valley, or take any precautions, placing his faith in his Lord.
Soon enough, the storm arrived, as he had been warned and the whole valley became flooded. A neighbour came past with a cart, carrying all his possessions and with his family on board.
"Climb aboard!" the neighbour called. "There is plenty of space!"
"No," the man replied. "My Lord will save me."
The neighbour passed, and the water started rising higher.
As the water started flooding his house, travelers fleeing the storm came past riding horses.
"Jump on!" they called. "We have space for one more!"
"No," the man said. "My Lord will protect me."
The riders passed. The water rose even higher, soon flooding his entire house, forcing the man to climb onto his own roof.
A boat came past, battling the waters, with the last few stragglers clinging on.
"Get in!" they called. "We can make room for you!"
"No," the man repeated. "My faith is in the Lord."
As the boat passed out of sight, a wave swept over the man, tearing him loose from the roof and drowning him.
When he arrived at the Pearly Gates, he indignantly demanded to speak to the Lord.
"Lord!" he accused. "I placed my faith in you, I was your most loyal worshiper, I believed in you, praying to you every day - and yet you left me to drown! Why?"
The Lord replied: "My child, I sent a warning, a neighbour with a cart, riders with horses and even, finally, a boat to rescue you! What more did you want Me to do?" i believe so, i've seen way to many unmoral and evil things done to this world and justified by "it's god's will, or god told me to do it" just think about all the garbage people were fed during dark ages, did you also know that Pompie and the ancient world was more advanced than the dark ages (which came something like 5,000 years after them) and it's true, there are fountains in pompie and remains of simple but working plumbing. the church outlawed all this stuff and said they were "sinful" we'd probally be much more advanced if most technological advances were illegal (like bathing more than every sunday) like already have robotic limbs in full circulation and commonly used as opposed to a year before clinical trials

personally or through the media?

everywhere, history, media, and personnaly

history has been and is always manipulated so is the media that leaves your personal experience, so.....................

Originally posted by The big EH
i believe so, i've seen way to many unmoral and evil things done to this world and justified by "it's god's will, or god told me to do it" just think about all the garbage people were fed during dark ages, did you also know that Pompie and the ancient world was more advanced than the dark ages (which came something like 5,000 years after them) and it's true, there are fountains in pompie and remains of simple but working plumbing. the church outlawed all this stuff and said they were "sinful" we'd probally be much more advanced if most technological advances were illegal (like bathing more than every sunday) like already have robotic limbs in full circulation and commonly used as opposed to a year before clinical trials I doubt there is anybody in any position to conclude anything about the net effect of any religious belief, particularly such a general question that involves so many Gods. Mostly this is because history only focuses in on big events and rarely are those events documented well.

But my meager historical knowledge indicates more evil than good done by the will of a higher power...especially if you consider the gods of Egypt, Persia, Greece, Rome the Aztecs and the Incas (as opposed to just focusing on Spain's Christian brutality, which is often what everybody has in mind).

Like I said though...history can't really demonstrate much because there is so little known about the personal level for many people.

didnt the Mayans sacrifice their race off to nothing because the gods wanted them to? and didn't Incas and Aztecs sacrifice people to the gods aswell on a regular basis?

Originally posted by anaconda
history has been and is always manipulated so is the media that leaves your personal experience, so..................... Correct. History IS ALWAYS MANIPULATED by the media and every publisher in town.........good call!

Originally posted by The big EH
didnt the Mayans sacrifice their race off to nothing because the gods wanted them to? and didn't Incas and Aztecs sacrifice people to the gods aswell on a regular basis? That's what I was reffering to, but I never heard that the Mayans sacrificed a significant percentage of their population. Surely not more than a few for every thousand or so?

Originally posted by chickenlover98
ok ill go by your logic on this one. humans are full of sin, and therefore fallible. anything a human says may be twisted or taken out of context or outright lies. therefore one cannot consider the bible a truthful "word of god." it disproves it because there is no proof of god, which you have admitted before. whether it was "inspired" means nothing, seeing as it was not written by god himself, it cannot be taken as the literal word of god. now to say the ten commandments are the word of god is acceptable(if i believed in them) because they were handed to moses, directly from god.

2. i have based my subjective opinion off of logic and those around me. it is clear that he has many flaws, such as love, and incomplete justice, and many out right cases of unfairness. never would a perfect or loving god ever hurt or torment its own creations(story of job) or force them to be slaves(israelites) when he himself could have easily freed them. a perfect god would not need worship to prove himself. nor would a perfect god even create anything because it is perfect. you may say perfection is subjective, but then what in this world isnt? it is clear that he cannot satisfy everyone, which yet again nullifies him the chance of being perfect. it is very clear how imperfect your god really is

Thank-you for your responses. One clarification, then two questions.

Clarification: In fact, I happen to believe there is good scientific evidence in SUPPORT of the existence of God. I'm not sure how you concluded that I believed otherwise.

Question 1: Is it not possible that a perfect, all powerful God, could sufficiently supervene the work of human writers, such that the final scriptural product would accurately reflect His will?

Question 2: Hypothetically speaking, if the Bible could be proven authentic and authoritative to your satisfaction, what impact might this have on your world view?

Originally posted by Tim Rout
Thank-you for your responses. One clarification, then two questions.

Clarification: In fact, I happen to believe there is good scientific evidence in SUPPORT of the existence of God. I'm not sure how you concluded that I believed otherwise.

Question 1: Is it not possible that a perfect, all powerful God, could sufficiently supervene the work of human writers, such that the final scriptural product would accurately reflect His will?

Question 2: Hypothetically speaking, if the Bible could be proven authentic and authoritative to your satisfaction, what impact might this have on your world view?
1. no it isnt possible. human error is so great its laughable. misinterpretations happen all the time. just look at the game of telephone. you must remember playing that as a kid. it starts with 1 word and then becomes something entirely different. this is exactly what happens. and if god was perfect, A: he wouldnt need worship and B: he would satisfy EVERYONES beliefs, because guess what HE"S PERFECT. but he doesnt, so even if he exists he isnt perfect

2. if it was proved that god was real? well then id be pissed at him for being such a ****ing douche bag. never has such a hypocrite been known. story of job. my fav story of the bible. it entirely proves my point

Originally posted by chickenlover98
1. no it isnt possible. human error is so great its laughable. misinterpretations happen all the time. just look at the game of telephone. you must remember playing that as a kid. it starts with 1 word and then becomes something entirely different. this is exactly what happens. and if god was perfect, A: he wouldnt need worship and B: he would satisfy EVERYONES beliefs, because guess what HE"S PERFECT. but he doesnt, so even if he exists he isnt perfect
An interesting perspective, though I find it difficult to understand your logic. Human failings are significant to be sure, but logically, an all powerful God would surely possess the ability to do anything he pleased.

Originally posted by chickenlover98
2. if it was proved that god was real? well then id be pissed at him for being such a ****ing douche bag. never has such a hypocrite been known. story of job. my fav story of the bible. it entirely proves my point You did not answer the question I asked, though perhaps your response would not differ. You answered "What if God was proven real?" I asked "What if the Bible was proven authentic and authoritative?"

Originally posted by chickenlover98
1. no it isnt possible. human error is so great its laughable. misinterpretations happen all the time. just look at the game of telephone. you must remember playing that as a kid. it starts with 1 word and then becomes something entirely different. this is exactly what happens.

Agreed. But how does that support this next part?

Originally posted by chickenlover98
and if god was perfect, A: he wouldnt need worship He DOESN'T need worship. WE need worship. I suppose to you I sound like a fanatic, but we just barely agreed that human error is so great it's laughable. That's why worship is essential!

Originally posted by chickenlover98
and B: he would satisfy EVERYONES beliefs, because guess what HE"S PERFECT. but he doesnt, so even if he exists he isnt perfect Why would God feel obliged to satisfy everyone's beliefs? I can understand why it wouldn't be fair if God sent a bunch of people to hell for not understanding him. But that isn't his plan. He's gonna put forth his best effort to find his lost sheep. Does that sound so obsurd to you?

Originally posted by chickenlover98
2. if it was proved that god was real? well then id be pissed at him for being such a ****ing douche bag. never has such a hypocrite been known. story of job. my fav story of the bible. it entirely proves my point What does the story of Job prove? Job wound up quite happy. Seriously. What can you loose on earth that God can't reward you with ten times over in the next life?

As I said earlier, it all balances out in the afterlife. Think how pointless the entire creation would be if it all balanced out in this life.

I think belief in God is closer to accepting responsibility

Originally posted by Quark_666

Totally disagree with you there. It all balances out in the afterlife...God is eventually merciful.

God is merciful if you worship God; if not, then you will be in Hell (if you take it as a place then you are burning for eternity as punishment; if a state of mind, you are lost without God and suffering until you accept God). That contradicts the whole point of free will which why some believe people no one has free will.

On another point, I noticed something funny a long time ago but it came up again while I was watching basketball yesterday:

I got my wish yesterday and a nice amount of good basketball games came on. In these close games, fans from both sides were praying for victory. It made me wonder what the hell the losing prayer thought afterwards. "God is good!" if you win, and if you lose "It wasn't to be because God didn't want it" or some odd crap like that.

But like Beanie Sigel, a rapper, said on a song:

"I was taught trust in Allah but still tie up your camel" (not sure if it's directly out the Qu'ran or not).

No one takes responsibility for the situation. Just "put it in God's hands." It's sad.

Originally posted by Quark_666

Why would God feel obliged to satisfy everyone's beliefs? I can understand why it wouldn't be fair if God sent a bunch of people to hell for not understanding him. But that isn't his plan. He's gonna put forth his best effort to find his lost sheep. Does that sound so obsurd to you?


The only reason I don't see this is valid is because everyone does not go through the same situations.

* Side note: I still wonder why people think we go through hardships in life as a test to see if we can become angels in heaven (so weird; where does that myth come from?)

It would be one thing if "lost sheep" were all going through similar situations and so someone with shitty parents can not be put on the same scale as someone with a decent household. But the shitty parents might be rich and the good parents poor. Too many variables.

So my point is to say that I think is irrational to believe that everyone can learn about God and how to live in a way that serves God; therefore, holding God accountable seems silly (but then not since God is omnipotent in this situation and can do anything but I'm leaving that out for now).

Conversely, many people would argue that some don't have that chance and sometimes they don't have a place accepting of God and so on. Then the counter to this is that they probably just did not "accept the signs."

I would think God feels some sort of responsibility to humans because he gave them the ability to choose. Now when taking entire civilizations into account, the choices an individual makes are lessened because they will fit into the particular way of thought they are surrounded with more often than not.

Originally posted by chithappens
The only reason I don't see this is valid is because everyone does not go through the same situations.

* Side note: I still wonder why people think we go through hardships in life as a test to see if we can become angels in heaven (so weird; where does that myth come from?)

It would be one thing if "lost sheep" were all going through similar situations and so someone with shitty parents can not be put on the same scale as someone with a decent household. But the shitty parents might be rich and the good parents poor. Too many variables.

So my point is to say that I think is irrational to believe that everyone can learn about God and how to live in a way that serves God; therefore, holding God accountable seems silly (but then not since God is omnipotent in this situation and can do anything but I'm leaving that out for now).

Conversely, many people would argue that some don't have that chance and sometimes they don't have a place accepting of God and so on. Then the counter to this is that they probably just did not "accept the signs."

I would think God feels some sort of responsibility to humans because he gave them the ability to choose. Now when taking entire civilizations into account, the choices an individual makes are lessened because they will fit into the particular way of thought they are surrounded with more often than not. You don't think an omnipotent being can factor all that? You think variables can stop justice? He DOES say that to whom much is given, much is expected. He knows what started out as an innocent mistake or a selfless idea. Why wouldn't he be able to reward people accordingly?

There are a variety of scenarios I could name where "fairness" would be questioned.

I do feel as if I'm beginning to drift towards becoming offensive so I'll stop there.

Originally posted by chithappens
There are a variety of scenarios I could name where "fairness" would be questioned.

I do feel as if I'm beginning to drift towards becoming offensive so I'll stop there. Lol, my feelings aren't made of glass you know. But I'm starting to get the same feeling of becoming offensive so I'll stop too. Usually that feeling would encourage me but I think you are one of the more sensible members of KMC so I'll pass up the opportunity to make another enemy.

Believing in what god? There are so many.

You can cling to one for strengh, or one for mercy.............you can cling for one for happiness and so what...OR you can believe in ONE for it all..If things don't go right, then you didn't give the right thing...In Christian faith it was "faith," if it was an ancient faith then it was not the right offerings..............So bad luck occured.

Simpletons, we are to believe an emotion as faith would be a cure all. Simpletons are we to believe an alter would be a cure all. Are we little children to believe the stories of what others in the past thought as true?

Believing in God is not a bad thing depending on what you call God. But then you are living in some fantacy world....God, if you like to call it that ..does not punish, does not judge........it is a character in a book...Mans simple ways are to... to try to explain the Universal Laws.

My 2 cents.

I'm surprised nobody has made that very clear until now.

Originally posted by Quark_666
T It all balances out in the afterlife...God is eventually merciful.

Wow, it's been a while - I actually forgot about this thread

Anyway - here is something that made me laugh about this whole "God is merciful and fair" business:


Why Can't I Own a Canadian?
October 2002

Dr. Laura Schlessinger is a radio personality who dispenses advice to people who call in to her radio show. Recently, she said that, as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22 and cannot be condoned under any circumstance. The following is an open letter to Dr. Laura penned by a east coast resident, which was posted on the Internet. It's funny, as well as informative:

Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them:

When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15:19- 24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your devoted fan,
Jim

http://www.humanistsofutah.org/2002/WhyCantIOwnACanadian_10-02.html

Avoiding ones responsibilities is something that can be caused by anything that can consume a persons attention and religion is a major culprit. Many people use religion as a way to avoid handling things realistically. They'll twist their various gospels to their own likes and dislikes and then cling to their customized version of what they consider gospel. Sad but true.

Actly it gives one person alot of Responsibility by praying and going to church and celebrating Religish hoildays.

Originally posted by ADarksideJedi
Actly it gives one person alot of Responsibility by praying and going to church and celebrating Religish hoildays.
How is it responsibility to do those things?

Originally posted by King Kandy
How is it responsibility to do those things? Anything that a person feels needs to done qualifies as a responsibility to that person. If they feel that it should be done by them and then they fail to do it then they have acted irresponsibly. Religious or not.

Originally posted by King Kandy
How is it responsibility to do those things?

Because it is unresponable not too when you know you should.

Originally posted by ADarksideJedi
Because it is unresponable not too when you know you should.
"Why is it responsible to do that?"
"Because it would be irresponsible not to."

Wow, circular logic much?

Originally posted by ADarksideJedi
Actly it gives one person alot of Responsibility by praying and going to church and celebrating Religish hoildays.

That's...also not the type of responsibility the thread is discussing. Simply having things to do is one type of responsibility, sure. But not the type discussed in the OP and subsequent discussion. Beyond your circular logic (outlined above) you're either missing the point or avoiding it deliberately.

I'd vote the former.

I feel that I am not missing the point but I see what you are saying.But it is true that believing in God is not advoiding Responsibility

Here's Exhibit A for this thread's avoidance of responsibility as a result of belief in God:
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner/post/Steve-Johnson-blames-God-for-his-overtime-drop?urn=nfl-289770

From the brief article: It must be nice to live a consequence-free environment where all errors can be blamed on a supreme being.

....

And yes, before anyone points it out, I realize this isn't supposed to be how people treat their relationship with God, nor their personal responsibility. I also realize football players aren't a great source of religious dogma or insightful wisdom. But, and here's the point, it is how some people end up treating it. This sh*t happens as a result of religion, and a comical drop in an overtime football game is just the tip of an unfortunate iceberg for theism and how people use it for absurd justifications.

Originally posted by Mark Question
Wishful thinking. Just like wishing for an afterlife, it's a devaluing of this life.

I disagree: cherishing this life as "precious" and it "having repercussions lasting throughout the eternities" would actually make this life the most important portion of our existence.


Personally, I see God as a person that does very very little in his "childrens' lives." In fact, almost every last thing we do is of our own accord. Sure, God built the playground, but we pretty much made our own rules with God only giving us suggestions on how to play nicely.

Originally posted by Dreampanther
While I consider myself spiritual, I am not very religious. The other day I watched An Inconvenient Truth and I started wondering: Are we avoiding responsibility by placing our faith in a Higher Power? Be it Buddha, Jesus, Allah or Jah, The Great Turtle or The Source, should we not rather accept responsibility for our actions here on Earth, instead of praying to some deity to come and save us?

This is not how Abrahamic Belief functions. Your salvation depends 100% on what YOU choose to do in your lifetime. You will be saved if you believe in God, avoid evil and life righteously. That is HOW you accept responsibility for your actions.

responsibilty, the older I get the less I want of it..

Is believing in God avoiding responsibility?

the answers yes. it's more an excuse.

the reality is your on your own kid. you always was, and always will be, till the day you die. then it's lights off forever.

Sure you can do what ever you want and say it's god will. Why take responsibily for your action when you can put if off on someone else. "God made me do it. Satan made me do it. "

I'm okay as long as someone else is at fault. I'm just obeying orders.

It is certainly avoiding reality.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
It is certainly avoiding reality.

Congratulations, you sir, win the internet today.

Originally posted by Quark_666
That's a valid issue, but some of us are more responsible because of our belief in God.

Then what does that say about your moral standard? Personally, i don't need the threat of eternal torture to be a good person in my society. I love my wife, thats reason enough for me not to cheat on her, i respect my neighbours and am jelous of their porsche, but wouldn't dream of damaging another persons property. Living in a society where you want harmony while you live there is all the motivation you should need.

More to the point, you believe that a being capable of sending someone to be tortured for an eternity for a finite crime in any way deserves respect or your worship.

/Growballs

Originally posted by Juk3n
Then what does that say about your moral standard? Personally, i don't need the threat of eternal torture to be a good person in my society.

Is it the fear of being sent to a federal pound-you-in-the-ass prison?

Originally posted by Robtard
Is it the fear of being sent to a federal pound-you-in-the-ass prison?

No, the fear of punishment should never be the motivator, stealing a purse from an old lady is easy, you could probably do it without anyone ever finding out, including her if you wanted, near zero risk factor, buti don't do these things because they are shitty, and if everyone went around doing it it would be a less harmonious society. I wouldn't want to be stolen from, and if i walk around being an ******* all day, than 9/10 someone will be an ******* to me.

Originally posted by Deja~vu
Sure you can do what ever you want and say it's god will. Why take responsibily for your action when you can put if off on someone else. "God made me do it. Satan made me do it. "

I'm okay as long as someone else is at fault. I'm just obeying orders.

Yep. The Nuremberg defence.
"God mitt uns" ("God with us" was what the Nazis did their conquering under.

So citing, and comparing the issue to the Nuremberg defence is very very appropriate indeed.

Originally posted by Juk3n
More to the point, you believe that a being capable of sending someone to be tortured for an eternity for a finite crime in any way deserves respect or your worship.

/Growballs

I believe a being who creates universes, life, and is all loving and all just is something that deserves worship, yes.

Hell isn't something God wants, it's something that has to be.