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Shinnok, Fallen Elder God
-RnoTvOpeIo
k7R3ffKEJC4

Fight:
Shinnok w/(real) Amulet vs. Kain at the end of Defiance w/Purified SouL Reaver
Battlefield: The place shown in the second video with Liu kang

at the end of defiance? heavens above lord

this guy better be tough, whats Shinnoks best powers and feats with this amulet, he doesnt seem like an opponent at all, more of a gnat, can he destroy worlds and such?

He and Rayden almost destroyed all of Earthrealm so...yeah.
And end of Defiance Kain is far from unbeatable.

not that far, he becomes conceptual, he is the direct guardian to what the pillars embody, time, death etc etc, he has control over those concepts, he would just make Shinnock die and that would be the end of the battle

make it pre-post defiance Kain and then we may have a fight, but any kain is undefeatable unless you take away scion status or reduce it, because he will always come back through the fact time is immutable for him

but this guy only destroys Earthrealm? he wouldnt touch post defiance kain, pre-post he may be able to wiggle about a bit with, but you need more than Shinnock, add the rest of the Mortal Kombat cast, infact no that would make it easier, maybe...hmm....add infact just make it pre-post defiance kain and it should be a fight for a few moments before kain freezes the guy in time, rips out his soul, imprisons it in the blade or drains Shinnoks blood if he has any (he must do he splatters good enough in the games) to gain his powers.

A. He never used his power over Time or Dimension or Nature or any of that. We don't know his limits with it so it's not valid in a debate.
B. Shinnok is immortal.



A. Kain isn't even close to destroying a dimension like Shinnok did.
B. Kain can't freeze time, only slow it.
C. Shinnok's soul is far older and more powerful than anything the Reaver ever came close to being able to absorb.

Originally posted by IdiotGod
A. He never used his power over Time or Dimension or Nature or any of that. We don't know his limits with it so it's not valid in a debate.
B. Shinnok is immortal.



A. Kain isn't even close to destroying a dimension like Shinnok did.
B. Kain can't freeze time, only slow it.
C. Shinnok's soul is far older and more powerful than anything the Reaver ever came close to being able to absorb.

A1. its a conceptual link, it means there is no limit, the concept is his toy

B1. So is Kain, in every way possible to be immortal, but Shinook would die if kain wished it so

A2: Kain with dimensional conceptual control would be able to do what he likes with dimentional voids, close them off, or use the concept of energy to just fill the space of a dimension

B2: he can only slow it with the blood reaver emblem, and that was a gameplay limit, the limit is not known in canon, however i was talking about conceptual kain, who has the concept of Time at his call

C1: The reaver has never been stopped to absorb a soul, once its impaled and swallows the soul youve had it, also show me the power of Shinnocks soul please, not Shinnock, his soul, what soul destroying attacks has he survived? what defenses does he have?


Kain would just regulate Shinnocks magic to zero and Shin will be powerless

This never happened with any of the other Guardians. No Limits Fallacy is not allowed in debates.



No he wouldn't.



No feats, No Limit Fallacy, wrong.



Yay for conceptual Kain
I'm using factual Kain.



Well, for one, he is the ruler supreme of a dimension full of souls. He has been defeated twice and both times the victor was unable to kill him or do anything to his soul.

Originally posted by IdiotGod
This never happened with any of the other Guardians. No Limits Fallacy is not allowed in debates.



No he wouldn't.



No feats, No Limit Fallacy, wrong.



Yay for conceptual Kain
I'm using factual Kain.



Well, for one, he is the ruler supreme of a dimension full of souls. He has been defeated twice and both times the victor was unable to kill him or do anything to his soul.

The other guardians documented were the following that reduced all their powers in comparison to kain:

Human: The pillars were built to channel conceptual power for Vampires not humans

the guardians were gaining the small amount of power they had through their link with the balance guardian, who also regulated their power and could make them weak if she so wished because she regulates magic

problem is, Kain regulates because he is the balance guardian, he is a vampire, meaning he is meant for the pillars, he has links to all other conceptual powers and is the scion of the pillars which gives him the full power of the concepts, he is not going to regulate his own power and he doesnt have to link with anyone to reduce his power, furthermore, he has his full soul back.

seems youve got a lot to learn about the Guardians and about kain

he would, someone with control over the very concept of death would snuff Shinnock, saying kain could not would be the same as saying "Death" out of Marvel couldnt kill Shinnock, ime quite sure she can

ime not using no limits as a fallacy, he is the conceptually controller, he would not have a limit, who is giving him this limit other than you? he regulates his own power, and has links to all the concepts full power. Although if you want feats, then dont use this conceptual kain....as you said the kain AFTER Defiance, which is the conceptual one, your logic is both broken by asking for feats for a character after a game which is foolish anyway.

erm factual kain? thats a lame argument incredibly, what do you call a fact? your definition of a "fact" must be very peculier, what facts can you go by then, heres the facts:

Kain controls concepts, Kain is immortal and cannot be killed, kain has 101 (exageration, hes basically got more than i wish to list) powers he can use to defeat this lame @ss fallen Elder God

but going by actual feats (hehe see what i did there) hes never actually survived directly a sou destroying attack? did they try to take his soul? show me if your answers are yes please

heres what will happen, ill use the pre-post defiance kain, conceptual is more powerful than you seem to be able to understand and by asking for feats from a character at the end of a game whos powers are completly diffrent by then, is logically broken.....this is more fair...sort off:

Kain shields, soul wracks, Shinnocks soul gone, Kain replaces it, takes the replacement soul out, Shinnocks body rots into nothingness, the end.......
to add insult to injury he could imprison Shinnocks soul in the blade, the guy can be as immortal as he likes in there

seems its not so fair afterall lol.......

Considering about 90% of your post's points are speculation...

Anyway, I don't know enough about Shin to decide.

its not more speculation really than it is to belive Mr fantastic could make a modern day toaster with materials, even if he has not done it



do you not belive Mr fantastic could do so?

also no, not 90% speculation, a more probable percentage is 60% since most of the post is telling facts of what has happened

but its not real speculation, its just logic as in 2+2=4, Conceptual power+Kain=Conceptual Kain etc etc

So...Shinnok destroys Kain. Kain can't destroy dimensions but Shinnok can.

Originally posted by Pyron_is_God
So...Shinnok destroys Kain. Kain can't destroy dimensions but Shinnok can.

You are using "A can but B can not logic"?

Almost as lousy an argument as "A > B > C logic".

No, it's a feat of power.
If Character A can blow up planets but Character B can't, Character B loses. Unless Character B is made out of A's weakness or some other variable.

Or if Character B has other advantages that grants him victory against Character A. Say, for example, speed? Or other powers.

Well, both Shinnok and Kain can teleport so speed means nothing.
Kain has nothing except maybe TK but that's not enough to overcome Shinnok.

He has a sword that with one strike drains Shinnok of his soul. That is the difference here

Shinnok's soul has survived longer than the planet Nosgoth has existed and couldn't be destroyed by all of MK's Elder Gods or the Netherrealm.

MK's Elder Gods are soul eaters?

They don't eat them but they could destroy them.

Shinnok is a fvcking queer that wants to have bum sex with Taven. Kain beats the sh1t out of Shittock.

Um...what the hell?

Originally posted by Pyron_is_God
Um...what the hell?

Some guy struggling for a laughter. Ignore it

but yeh, this is old, stop bumping threads already decided upon PiG and then spamming rubbish, if you have arguments then list them, but if you dont then stop bumping threads to spread hate for characters

I don't hate Kain.
I hate your version of Kain because it really is insulting a great character.

but youve yet to prove anything ive said is false, your simply spamming "zomg i dont like your bias fanboyismz", unfortuatley youve got no argument or point

My point is already stated and you apparently ignored it.

Shinnok could have destroyed Earthrealm in his fight witH Rayden. Kain can't. Simple as that.

but its not simple as that.....Kain would tele blitz shinnock with a reaver slash, take his soul, use spirit death and soul wrack to destroy his soul from range near instantly, faster than likely anything lame @ss shinnock cna do, Kain could have his shield up, most of Shinniocks attacks seem to be physical/magical in nature, the shield protects and would refelct magic back onto Shinnock, so shinnock is stuffed twice over by now, Kain could just do the easy job of teleporting next to Shinnock with time reaver, slow him to a crawl then fire a time bolt into shinocks face freezing him instantly in time, then Shinnock is doomed

Shinnock has no "defeat" options for Kain, since Kain cannot die, you need to hold him or contain him, Shinnock can do neither

Then explain to me how Kain wins.
Please, I want to know.

i just did

You can't destroy Shinnok's soul.



He can teleport and blow people up with a thought.
Thought > movement.



Shinnok has a barrier too....



Of course he can. Shinnok can warp reality. He waprs Kain into a turtle.

Originally posted by Pyron_is_God
You can't destroy Shinnok's soul.



He can teleport and blow people up with a thought.
Thought > movement.



Shinnok has a barrier too....



Of course he can. Shinnok can warp reality. He waprs Kain into a turtle.

1. prove this please, also Kain wouldnt have to "destroy" jsut rip it out and imprison it in the blade ftw

2. a thought is a type of attack, also show me this, if he can blow people up with a thought then why didnt he just do it in one shot at Raiden? Kain can shield with a thought, so touchea

3. show me the barreir please, what does it stop? physical, magical? is it invulerable? how long does it last?

4. Show me Shinnock doing this, he was beaten so why didnt he warp Raiden, or the MK cast into turtles, also this warping reality sounds magical in nature, also he cant warp kain if Kain isnt there to warp, if he is invisble or teleporting, show me these things please.

1. The Elder Gods couldn't destroy his soul; just put it in the Netherrealm.

2. -RnoTvOpeIo

3. It's used in MK Mythologies to deflect Sub-Zero's punches as well as his freezing power.

4. Same reason a lot of characters don't use abilities when they're defeated: PIS.
And it's said in the MK Mythologies manual that Shinnok wapred the Nettherrealm to appear more like Earth, turning the demons in the dimension into humanoids.

1. Elder Gods tried then? can you show me please, simply because they did not is besdies the point, but as i said, Kain doesnt need to kill it, he can simply put it in Soul reaver instead of the Netherealm

2. lol Shinnock himself says it while threatening sometihng as weak as reptile, please do you have an official statement or refrence saying Shinnock CAN actually kill anyone with a thought

3. sub-zeros punches and freezing power, how impressive does that sound? it doesnt does it....no magic powers then?

4. yeh PIS indeed, prob another reason why Elder Gods didnt destroy Shinnocks soul then, also you take an example of a realm where he has control over of and you think he can do it to any opponent? post the place where it says it so i can read it exactley, warping something doesnt mean your warping reality

The Netherrealm is a dimension..the Soul Reaver is a sword.
You think they are comparable?



Well, let's think here, kay?

Fact 1: Shinnok says he can kill Reptile with a thought.
Fact 2: Reptile just blows up a few seconds later.

Now, what does this obviously mean? Come on. You can do it.



....his ice power is magic?
I mean, come on. Try to think here.
And I just remembered. Kain doesn't even have his barrier spell from BO1 here.



I don't have a scanner.

Originally posted by Pyron_is_God
The Netherrealm is a dimension..the Soul Reaver is a sword.
You think they are comparable?



Well, let's think here, kay?

Fact 1: Shinnok says he can kill Reptile with a thought.
Fact 2: Reptile just blows up a few seconds later.

Now, what does this obviously mean? Come on. You can do it.



....his ice power is magic?
I mean, come on. Try to think here.
And I just remembered. Kain doesn't even have his barrier spell from BO1 here.



I don't have a scanner.

1. thats not even a comparison PiG, the comparison is that their both containtments, and inside the Soul reaver, is a containtment for Shinnock, also what do you call a dimension? for example Jedahs little pocket dimension is still a dimension but its tiny, much like the inside imprisonment of the sword, either way, its an imprisonment, Shinnock is doomed.

2. thats an incredibly weak feat tho, Reptile is hardly the most powerful of beings, now that is a no limits fallacy to think he could do the same to kain who will not be held by the throat but will be teleporting all over the place. But blowing kain up, what use will that do? hes already been literally ripped out of excistence in a way, how is blowing him up going to do anything? even if i believed your no limits fallacy.

3. It says hes fighting Kain, so Kain has his shield

4. shame....

Who says Jedah's dimension is tiny and only a pocket one?



He got knocked through a portal into another dimension..he wasn't blown up.



Reading the Op might help.

Originally posted by Pyron_is_God
Who says Jedah's dimension is tiny and only a pocket one?



He got knocked through a portal into another dimension..he wasn't blown up.



Reading the Op might help.

everyone who has played DS, its only got his castle in it, thats about it, theres nothing more, ime not sure even the Shintai is in it, but its got nothing else

no his excistence was destroyed when his heart was ripped out

regardless, it says "Kain" that means it can be any Kain i wish, and i choose the one from Defiance

That's the one I'm using....and in Defiance he doesn't have a shield.

And no, you can't choose whatever Kain you wish. Get over yourself.

now thats a weak claim, FIRST Defiance Kain is the same kain from all the games, so unless you show me where he loses the ability to shield himself, ill not respond to more "zomg kain never used his shieldsor!" rubbish, in canon, Kain never loses any of his powers.

and yes i can, if ime debating Kain I can choose any of them i wish to do so, since the thread is KAIN not a specific version

but for the record, any Kain apart from maybe Blood omen 2 version beats Shinnoks @ss

He losted all of his magic after BO1. That's fact.
He never used a single spell after the first game without the Reaver.
These are facts and if you intend to disprove them you will provide facts he still has his magic from Blood Omen 1 and 2.



It's specified in the opening post. Intellectual people, not you, read those before posting.

Originally posted by Pyron_is_God
He losted all of his magic after BO1. That's fact.
He never used a single spell after the first game without the Reaver.
These are facts and if you intend to disprove them you will provide facts he still has his magic from Blood Omen 1 and 2.



It's specified in the opening post. Intellectual people, not you, read those before posting.

losted? lol, no he didnt "losted" his magic, can you show me an official source to back up that claim. I know he never used a single spell, so what? does that mean he has randomly lost the power, until you show me a canon source stating officially that he lost all his magic powers then. Also furthermore, you need to realise Kain from Defiance has lived both timelines, meaning effects of Blood omen 2 which are new, come only as memories to the Kain were using, so technically, the only one even if you somehow do prove that he loses his Magic powers canonically is the Blood omen 2 version

ah yes, you simply put it in Itallics, this is the most powerful version so yeh he wipes out Shinnock with soul powers and shield

Keep it up and you will get a bann. You have already recieved a warning, PIG.

Shittock is pathetic really. I mean, he got beat by Johnny Cage. Kain is superior to most of the MK Fighters. Kain can just use his TK or Time or something and cut off Shittock's head.

...what?
He did not get beat by Johny Cage............................

Yeah he did. It was in Cage's Armeggedon Bio or something. Shittock had to teleport to escape I believe.

Please prove this.
It was Liu Kang who beat him in MK4.

lmao? Liu Kang? seems Shinnock is not half as powerful, he deserves zero respect

http://mkarmageddon.com/assets/bios/bio_johnny_cage.html

and BT, Liu Kang is the MK Champion. Show him some respect.

Originally posted by Burning thought
lmao? Liu Kang? seems Shinnock is not half as powerful, he deserves zero respect

lmao? Grom Hellscream killed Cenarius and Mannoroth. They deserve no respect.

Originally posted by Furion
http://mkarmageddon.com/assets/bios/bio_johnny_cage.html

and BT, Liu Kang is the MK Champion. Show him some respect.

So...he didn't beat Shinnok.

Originally posted by Furion
http://mkarmageddon.com/assets/bios/bio_johnny_cage.html

and BT, Liu Kang is the MK Champion. Show him some respect.

I know who he is, but he doesnt seem to have a lot of power, isnt he just a guy? with some special abilities, he can summon dragons and stuff can he not as well and transform into one, but i was imagining Shinnock to be more than some guy who can get beats by something like that

Originally posted by Becci
lmao? Grom Hellscream killed Cenarius and Mannoroth. They deserve no respect.

certainly not, and they often dont get any and are passed as major PIS events

Yeah he did get beat. Shittock was supposed to be all powerful, why didn't he just explode Cage? Cause he's a fricking wuss that's why.

He wasn't beaten by Johnny Cage though...it doesn't say that anywhere in there.

Johnny Cage shadow kicked Shittcock then beat him to a pulp. Shittcock then retreated to avoid getting killed. Retreat is another version of lost. Getting Beaten. Losing. Shittcock wouldn't of teleported away if he was winning or won. Shittcock got his ass beaten in by Cage and then teleported away. Simple. Accept it.

lol "Shittock" is lame, ime surprised this thread as lasted 3 pages

Not Shittock, Shittcock.

ah i see

You all have the maturity of first graders.
But less debating skill.

yh rite Nikkolas, now if that came from someone who could attempt a debate themselves, i may have cared a little enough to ask why

You fail in the Seph vs Kain thread. Seriously. Fail. Major Uber Fvcking Fail

in the Seph vs Kain thread? he fails in every thread

But especially in that one.

*yawns*
You two done being immature morons yet?

Which two are you refering to?

You figure it out.

I'm lazy. Tell me.

You and BT.

dont make him cry Furion lol, he may rant on suddenly about "zomg Galaxy sized Pyronz" among other queer things

You mean rant on about facts?

Originally posted by Pyron_is_God
You mean rant on about facts?

Fact is solid. Your claims are not.

lol oh my gosh, he is still grasping for his shattering straws and chips? heavens above

Hypocrisy, thy name is burning thought.
Don't you have No Limits Fallacies to make and to get laughed at by everyone on the forum?

laughed at by everyone on the forum? thats not my sort of thing, however you can by saying "Andromeda pyronz!" go on, please say it again

Sure.
1C-LHzDOTl4

Blatantly shown and ignored and excuses away by people here. It's rather amusing.

I'm still waiting for someone to show how he's not in Makai...when he's talking about it and what it is and then saying
http://www.vgmuseum.com/end/psx/c/ds3vspyr-6.gif

"Here" as in where he is...if he wasn't actually in Makai and was just talking about a place, he'd say "there." It's been conveniently passed over, just like my asking for proof of the distance perception BS Darth was babbling about.

I guess this is how people here debate?
"I got proven wrong. Guess I'll just ignore that and keep saying it."

Do you have to include insults in every post you make, PIG?

now thats how you debate my young friend, youve been told by not only many people that the video shows nothing on him actually being IN or NEAR any of those places, otherwise he wouldnt of said "perhaps i will go to Andromeda next" hes obviously thinking lol, wally

Originally posted by Burning thought
now thats how you debate my young friend, youve been told by not only many people that the video shows nothing on him actually being IN or NEAR any of those places, otherwise he

i just answered it, he wouldnt say "perhaps i will go to Andromeda next" if he was already there, lol......

also your getting people to prove a negative, its like me saying "prove Kain can be permanently killed" or "prove Pyron will not be sliced in one hit by the reaver", its a negative, you need to give evidence for you claim WHY you belive and your evidence in thinking Pyron is moving from Makai (when he has shown no dimensional movement) in the same pose as he goes next to Andromeda so you belive (lmao)

Originally posted by Pyron_is_God
You and BT.

Who is You? Is he a regular poster on KMC?

..............................................................

You have proven once and for all you do not read my posts.

Not ONCE in that post I quoted again did I mention Andromeda.

Yet you answered it?
WTF?

I haven't seen this You? He hasn't posted in this thread. Where is he?

Originally posted by Pyron_is_God
..............................................................

You have proven once and for all you do not read my posts.

Not ONCE in that post I quoted again did I mention Andromeda.

Yet you answered it?
WTF?

its incredibly relevent because the way he tralks about Makai is similiar to Andromeda, the look and picture is all the same, the whole line of this argument is around him being Andromeda size which is a broken claim by you, the fact remains, he is simply thinking about it, end of argument, also it makes sense he is not in Makai, otherwise considering his size he would of wiped out that planet

Stop repeating your baseless claim of Makai is only a single planet.

lawlz stop trying to debate with me and debate with me (Samuel Jackson ftw)

umm....wasnt it morpheus from the matrix who said that?
"common, stop tring to hit me and HIT me!"

imo, it depends on who strikes first.

both are immortal but shinnok is considerably more powerful. mk has a poor and inconsistent level of feats by it's characters but, it can be assessed by shinnoks' greatest feats that he is indeed a badass.

kain is bonifide, and can only be killed by the reaver blade, which he holds.

if shinnok manages to separate the reaver from kain. kain is in trouble that is, if shinnok figures out that important tid bit.

(i believe any one can wield the physical reaver)

as rule of thumb, any "vs topic" can be resolved by k.o. when a clear victor needs to be determined.

as such i can see that going either way but, more in shinnoks favor.

if kain manages to get close enough, which isn't as hard as some may think (given his impressive powers), he could use the reaver on shinnok.

i think for the sake of the fight, shinnok would have a soul to devour. why not? i did it for my "raziel and kratos vs olympus gods" topic.


my final assessment.

shinnok 6/10


kains' still the badder mofo.

kain cant be killed by anything now...not even the reaver

Originally posted by MadMel
kain cant be killed by anything now...not even the reaver

no such statement was made.

so technically, kain can still be killed by the reaver.

just because it's whole doesn't mean it lost it's ability to kill kain. glare

If Raziel wielded the Reaver he could have kicked Kain's ass.
He was invincible with it.
I never quite understood that. Maybe it had somethign to do with time wouldn't let him be harmed.

Originally posted by Pyron_is_God
If Raziel wielded the Reaver he could have kicked Kain's ass.
He was invincible with it.
I never quite understood that. Maybe it had somethign to do with time wouldn't let him be harmed.


the games' time-line is all kinds of crazy.

the quantum physics get a little fuzzy. especially when raziel kills himself. i guess the universe doesn't implode after all. but, it's all theory anyways.

it's kinda like the movie "southland" only it makes a little more sense and it doesn't have the rock.

man, can you imagine raziel and the rock?

it would be like "back to the future" meets the "scorpion king," and "ghostbusters."

i'd watch it.

better yet put raziel in a sitcom.

call it "two and a half dead men"

oh that charlie sheen...

id watch it
Originally posted by geshien
just because it's whole doesn't mean it lost it's ability to kill kain. glare
where was that stated

I would think it has a greater chance of killing Kain now that it's a soul-devourering blade. Raziel had spiritual immortality in his soul can not be destroyed. Kain is immortal because his body is supposedly indestructible and his soul will be always trapped in him. So, now that the blade devours souls, it can bypass his physical immortality and get at his vulnerable soul.

Originally posted by Pyron_is_God
I would think it has a greater chance of killing Kain now that it's a soul-devourering blade. Raziel had spiritual immortality in his soul can not be destroyed. Kain is immortal because his body is supposedly indestructible and his soul will be always trapped in him. So, now that the blade devours souls, it can bypass his physical immortality and get at his vulnerable soul.

exactly...

Originally posted by Pyron_is_God
Well, both Shinnok and Kain can teleport so speed means nothing.
.


Just noting that this is not true.

All this about the reaver killing Kain, heres the big "oops" to anyone who thinks so

the ONLY reason anyone thought kain could be defeatd by the reaver or Raziel is because of the fact they thought he was the vampire champ destined to fall to the hylden champ when Raziel was infact both, Kain is neither, meaning Kain is unkillable, also its unkown if Kain sitll has a soul OR if he does, if it is indeed touchable, since the heart of darkness was supposed to be the thing giving him his vampiric unlife, and holding his soul to the corpse, without it, kain "should" of died, but ofc he cannot, so he did not.

Um, Kain WAS going to die in the tomb of William the Just. Raziel would kill him with the Soul Reaver there.

yet Kain is not dead, nothing would allow Kain to die permanently, he was always destined, also show me this about Raziel going to kill Kain...since time is immutable, something would always allow kain to survive

also how would stabbing Kain with the reaver kill him? his heart (soul and basically excistence keeping his corpse alive) ripped out is just as bad

A. Time was ****ed up in SR2. Kain was supposed to die and Raziel was supposed to be absorbed by the Reaver. Neither happened. Time can be changed with enough effort, the edge of the coin or the introduction of paradoxes like multiple versions of the Reaver in one room at one time.

B. The Soul Reaver eats your soul. It's Kain's soul that is vulnerable with his body being invulnerable to a degree.

A: time is immutable, do you want me to show you the official developer questions and answers page where it says time IS IMMUTABLE meaning kain never was really going to die, also Kain HAS never been properly killed, it doesnt matter if he was apprently according to you "going to"

B: prove this, its not Kains soul thats vulerable, his body is indeed invulerable, since it doesnt matter, its his soul that does, but his soul seems damn untouchable to with the Heart of darkness, its main link to the body ripped out

I care what the game tells us.
What does the game tell us?
Time can be changed. It HAS been changed since Blood Omen.
Original timeline - Nemesis rules the world.
Altered timeline ie. time is changed - Kain kills William and alters the future.

Original timeline - Kain doesn't die in SRII. Raziel doesn't enter the Reaver.
Altered timeline ie. time is changed - Blood Omen 2 comes about with The Hylden escaping, Janos being resurrected.

These are FACTS. Time has been reshuffled multiple times.

Originally posted by Pyron_is_God
I care what the game tells us.
What does the game tell us?
Time can be changed. It HAS been changed since Blood Omen.
Original timeline - Nemesis rules the world.
Altered timeline ie. time is changed - Kain kills William and alters the future.

Original timeline - Kain doesn't die in SRII. Raziel doesn't enter the Reaver.
Altered timeline ie. time is changed - Blood Omen 2 comes about with The Hylden escaping, Janos being resurrected.

These are FACTS. Time has been reshuffled multiple times.

you seem to have a poor grasping of the game, Kain will never die from the blade, simple, there is no possible way anyone can kill Kain in LOK, and time is immutable, as in unchangable, you cannot change time if you didnt already which then ofc your not really changing it, time is immutable , a developer>your poor intepretations

Well, I'm going by what the game says.
Come back to me when wha tyou say is supported by the game.
As of right now, the facts are shown. Kain dies in the tomb of King William and Raziel would have gone on to be absorbed by the blade. That was the original timeline and you have no proof otherwise.
FACTS >>>> your interpretations.

they do indeed, which why the fact is time is immutable as said by developer :

http://www.thelostworlds.net/Defiance/Question_and_Answer_with_Jen,_Richard,_and_Kyle.html

TIME IS IMMUTABLE it cannot be changed, so Kain was always going to come back, just like when he had his heart torn out

time was never going to die, nothing would let him die at all, these are not facts your showing me, your showing me your interpretations of the game, SHOW me your apprent proof

Proof is laid right out in Soul Reaver 2.
0XYtktBNlBs

He feels the spirit in the Reaver deranged and ravenous....How did that spirit get there?
rlGJ8yymkRM

Yep. Raziel was absorbed into the Reaver after killing Kain earlier on. No Kain to save him, he's forced into the blade and goes mad.

Oh and please look at the scene. See all those new memories? That be Janos being resurrected. That be the Hylden and all of Blood Omen 2.

Which never happened originally which meant time was changed.

Oh and time itself is forcing Raziel to try and kill Kain. As it always was. But guess what? He changes time and Kain doesn't die.
nl0X_-qejD8

Originally posted by Pyron_is_God
Proof is laid right out in Soul Reaver 2.
0XYtktBNlBs

He feels the spirit in the Reaver deranged and ravenous....How did that spirit get there?
rlGJ8yymkRM

Yep. Raziel was absorbed into the Reaver after killing Kain earlier on. No Kain to save him, he's forced into the blade and goes mad.

Oh and please look at the scene. See all those new memories? That be Janos being resurrected. That be the Hylden and all of Blood Omen 2.

Which never happened originally which meant time was changed.

Oh and time itself is forcing Raziel to try and kill Kain. As it always was. But guess what? He changes time and Kain doesn't die.
nl0X_-qejD8

How did the spirit get in there? have you not played Defiance? Raziel goes into the blade lol, understand your sources before you post them

Kain never dies, he cannot....Raziel never kills Kain

Ive seen the scene when I completed it several times myself, yes Kain has the memories of BO2 and has lived them both ,another thing that means Kain would still have his powers from BO1, but the thing is, this was still all written in time, this was always going to happen

time cannot be changed, read what the developer says, time cannot be changed, its immutable, Developer>>>>any other source since all these events are still YOUR own interpretation of whats happening

exactley, KAIN does not die and never dies properly, he will always excist or return some way, the scion of balance simply cannot die.

That would make a Nozdormu in the Kain universe unstoppable

hm, sort of, as soon as he enters the time stream he would be deleted from excistence, however if he was allowed to stay, he would be like Kain in that universe

Wrong. The Soul Reaver there is not the one at the end of Defiance. The Soul Reaver there is like the one in Blood Omen - the one that screams.
The Soul Reaver Kain uses in Defiance is the Purified Soul Reaver which was never seen before.



Time says otherwise.



No it wasn't. It never would have happened because it was a paradox that had never occured before.



Nope. It's fact.

Time can't be altered?

BIQ1a_aFSLs

"Gy going back in time and ALTERING THE PAST you turned William the Just into the Nemesis."



Take it up with what the game flatly tells us.

Originally posted by Pyron_is_God
Wrong. The Soul Reaver there is not the one at the end of Defiance. The Soul Reaver there is like the one in Blood Omen - the one that screams.
The Soul Reaver Kain uses in Defiance is the Purified Soul Reaver which was never seen before.



Time says otherwise.



No it wasn't. It never would have happened because it was a paradox that had never occured before.



Nope. It's fact.

Time can't be altered?

BIQ1a_aFSLs

"Gy going back in time and ALTERING THE PAST you turned William the Just into the Nemesis."



Take it up with what the game flatly tells us.

Prove its not the one at the end of defiance, the one in Blood omen is still the soul reaver, there are not two "soul" reavers which is why they break if you bring two of them together.

Time is immutable, it would of always happened

This is where you fail most, you fail terribly by going against developers word who knows far more on the game than the public thats for sure, and likely far more than we will ever know from the script and future games since i doubt another game will be made, but to make it worse, your bringing up what characters like the youngest and most arrogent of kains say, do you not realise the characters are wrong in the end?

another point where their wrong even in their eldest forms is in Defiance both Kain and Raziel belive they are the Champions for their races, when Raziel is both, the charatcers can be very wrong, and no matter what they do, Time is not really changing, their fates are already written and Kain does never die, he is unkillable.

Because Raziel never entered the Reaver willingly for that Soul Reaver. He was forced into it hence why he went insane.

Also, it is blatantly obvious visually. Look at the Soul Reaver iN Blood Omen 1 and 2 and then look at the one at the end of Defiance. TheY look nothing alike. Like Raziel said, the version he gave Kain at the end of Defiance was "free of all corruption."
The Purified Soul Reaver was NEVER seen before Defiance.



Game >>>>> what you think.



A. Moebius said Kain was right..........................................
B. If the Developers told you Kain had an extra hand growing out of his ass, would you believe them?
The developers made the game thus they are saying "well, here's the game." Are you telling me that their word overrules their creation? That Superman can beat a guy who is a universe?
Creators' words don't matter. Their creations matter.
ESPECAILLY if what they say contradicts all facts in their creation.



Take it up with what the game tells us.

Originally posted by Pyron_is_God
Because Raziel never entered the Reaver willingly for that Soul Reaver. He was forced into it hence why he went insane.

Also, it is blatantly obvious visually. Look at the Soul Reaver iN Blood Omen 1 and 2 and then look at the one at the end of Defiance. TheY look nothing alike. Like Raziel said, the version he gave Kain at the end of Defiance was "free of all corruption."
The Purified Soul Reaver was NEVER seen before Defiance.



Game >>>>> what you think.



A. Moebius said Kain was right..........................................
B. If the Developers told you Kain had an extra hand growing out of his ass, would you believe them?
The developers made the game thus they are saying "well, here's the game." Are you telling me that their word overrules their creation? That Superman can beat a guy who is a universe?
Creators' words don't matter. Their creations matter.
ESPECAILLY if what they say contradicts all facts in their creation.



Take it up with what the game tells us.

Prove all this theory your spouting, please do.....

prove it goes bad because he doesnt want to, there could be dozens of diffrent reasons, either its mad because it is starved, it is mad because its been sitting until Kain finds it in avernus, as Raziel says, he is imprisoned in the blade, he never wanted to go in it ever, he just has no choice.

what are you talking about, look notihng alike, their the same sword, they look the same, or do you mean the special effects around the sword? lol....the special effects Blood omen couldnt have done? youve no proof their not the same sword in the end, considering time movements and such, many things could happen to the reaver and your theories are not proof of any of it.

Developpers>>>>Game>>>your poor intepretations of the game

A. Moebius did? ofcourse he did, and youve got proof moebius knows that time is immutable? nobody other than the developers know that time cannot be properly changed until Raziel realises he cannot change it and his fate is already written, so he goes into the blade

B. That would be common sense not to belive that, and to think its a joke an officail and serious questions and answers interview is not the same, the developers know far more than anyone on the game, and your simply beating around the bush and grasping at straws to keep your dead argument afloat, the developers say its immutable, time is immutable and the game does indeed show us, that neither of them can escape their fates, Raziel was always going into the blade.

Take it up with the developers themselves, and what do you mean take it up with the game? more like your poor interpreations, i can see the game pretty clearly and ive played it enough times to see why the developers would say its immutable, its damn obvious.

Wrong Soul Reaver. We're talking about the one William had and we have no idea where Moebius got it from. Somewhere in the timestream but exactly where is unknown.

And don't you think you'd go mad from thousands of years after being dragged into a blade?

Also, again, the visuals clearly show the difference.



Your pathetic theories mean nothing to fact.

Let's look at it then.
Blood Omen 2, the original Soul Reaver from when Raziel was trapped in the blade and not the Purified version.
a8xrgSo6iLg

vs.

The Purified Soul Reaver in Defiance.

J4uQ5-44P78

Look anything alike? No?

Raziel never got the Spirit Reaver originally. He was trapped in Soul Reaver 2. THAT IS FACT and what you think means nothing.



Game >>>>> developers when the developers are contradicted by their creation.
Or can the Hulk beat Galactus becaue a writer who wrote the Hulk said he could?



Time isn't immutable.

It's been changed FOUR TIMES IN THE GAMES.

1. Moebius turnning William the Just into the Nemesis.
2. Kain killing William and altering the future.
3. Raziel not killing Kain.
4. Kain preventing Raziel from entering the Reaver, thus making Blood Omen
2.

Game >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you.



And Kain was always going to die until Raziel changed it.
FACT.
Come back when you have proof from teh games instead of your BS that contradicts every game in the series.



Immutable; changeless, unable to be changed


So, WRONG.

Originally posted by Pyron_is_God
Wrong Soul Reaver. We're talking about the one William had and we have no idea where Moebius got it from. Somewhere in the timestream but exactly where is unknown.

And don't you think you'd go mad from thousands of years after being dragged into a blade?

Also, again, the visuals clearly show the difference.



Your pathetic theories mean nothing to fact.

Let's look at it then.
Blood Omen 2, the original Soul Reaver from when Raziel was trapped in the blade and not the Purified version.
a8xrgSo6iLg

vs.

The Purified Soul Reaver in Defiance.

J4uQ5-44P78

Look anything alike? No?

Raziel never got the Spirit Reaver originally. He was trapped in Soul Reaver 2. THAT IS FACT and what you think means nothing.



Game >>>>> developers when the developers are contradicted by their creation.
Or can the Hulk beat Galactus becaue a writer who wrote the Hulk said he could?



Time isn't immutable.

It's been changed FOUR TIMES IN THE GAMES.

1. Moebius turnning William the Just into the Nemesis.
2. Kain killing William and altering the future.
3. Raziel not killing Kain.
4. Kain preventing Raziel from entering the Reaver, thus making Blood Omen
2.

Game >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you.



And Kain was always going to die until Raziel changed it.
FACT.
Come back when you have proof from teh games instead of your BS that contradicts every game in the series.



Immutable; changeless, unable to be changed


So, WRONG.

Theres only one soul reaver, so where he got it from is irrelevent, where ever kain puts it after hes done with it in Defiance.

if you dont thnk they look anything alike then i heard theres many specsaver deals. and wtf? hes trapped in it in Defiance not SR 2, lol...play the games dude

no the game never >>Developers since they know tricks behind the storylines that none of us will ever likely know

does the Hulk writer also write galactus? if he does then Hulk can beat Galactus if the writer makes him do so and is allowed to....you have to take into account A: this is not a flawed comic where all kinds of stupid things happen, this is a canon game and B: LOK is made by the same people ,all of it is from the same company although diffrent teams make the diffrent games, Amy Herring was the story creator, their all tied in.

using your own example against you, what your saying is if LOK developer said time is immutable in Marvel, then he would be wrong to think he does know this, unfortuatley for you, this is a LOK developer.

even more unfortuate for you, you seem to have lost the grasp of the entire game and its story, its okie tho becuae a lot of people do, however better people at the story (the developers and me) than you are here to help you, come back when you understand the LOK storyline

Wrong Soul Reaver...again.
Defiance never happened originally.



Wrong again. Raziel enters the Reaver in Defiance. He is trapped in i tin SR2, the original timeline.



Like Kain has a hand growing out of his anus.

If what they say contradicts the games, it's wrong.



Blood Omen 2 was done by a different team.
It's the same as different writers.
Same company, different set.



Lolz time can't be changed.
Even if the game says it can and shows it can and it has been.


Come back to me when you know what you're talking about.

Originally posted by Burning thought
hm, sort of, as soon as he enters the time stream he would be deleted from excistence, however if he was allowed to stay, he would be like Kain in that universe

What are you basing this on? If time is immutable and Nozdormu is one with time, that should make him unstoppable.

Originally posted by Diamond Kisses
What are you basing this on? If time is immutable and Nozdormu is one with time, that should make him unstoppable.

Nozmordu does not excist in the LOK timeline, so he would be deleted from it, if he tried to enter

His powers is over time and not "warcraft"-time.

he woud still not be part of the immutable timeline of LOK, so if he tried to enter it, he would be deleted, he could not make himself excist in LOK since he does not, its not in the canon or any of it.

If he was placed in a versus inside the LoK universe he would be as unstoppable as time is immutable.

Except time isn't immutable. It's been changed, screwed over and reshuffled many times.

Then Nozdormu would be just his normal unkillable self and not extra-unkillable


But if listening to what BT says that time is immutable, then the concept of time is a useless concept. Why would they make a useless concept? No, I am not buying the whole "immutable" deal

And you're right to buy it. If time was immutable, the Legacy of Kain would have ended with Blood Omen since Kain could never have altered time and thus would have been destroyed by the Nemesis.
Then it would have ended in Soul Reaver 2 because Raziel would have killed Kain and be trapped in the Reaver...so there goes our two heroes.
Blood Omen 2 and Defiance would never have happened.

Originally posted by Diamond Kisses
Then Nozdormu would be just his normal unkillable self and not extra-unkillable


But if listening to what BT says that time is immutable, then the concept of time is a useless concept. Why would they make a useless concept? No, I am not buying the whole "immutable" deal

If Nozmordu was put in LOK in a verses, and was allowed to excist there, then he would be like Kain, unbeatable yet he could not change time either, by trying to change events, so he would be invulerable but not quite as lethal in a normal time zone

why would it be a useless concept? you just couldnt change time, you dont need to change time for it to be a useful concept. What do you mean "buying" its in the game wether anyone likes it or not

PiG you seem to be under the impression that someone changed time? lol....nobody changed it, it was going to happen like that all along, Raziel was always going to enter the blade the way he did, Kain was never going to die, he simply cannot, Kain was always going tokill the boy King in order to bring down the events of the Nemesis.

The main fact remains, time is told to be immutable, and Kain never dies, every event, something happens to keep him alive, even if its escaping, he was always going to save Raziel from the blade because he was destined to

Originally posted by Burning thought
why would it be a useless concept? you just couldnt change time, you dont need to change time for it to be a useful concept. What do you mean "buying" its in the game wether anyone likes it or not

Yes you do. Even slowing time is part of changing time. Since Kain slows time all the time, it can not be immutable. Since Kain has time-powers, time can not be immutable.

Originally posted by Diamond Kisses
Yes you do. Even slowing time is part of changing time. Since Kain slows time all the time, it can not be immutable. Since Kain has time-powers, time can not be immutable.

slowing it is not actually changing time, if i reduced by cars speed from 20 mph to 15, ime not changing my car am I?

No, you are changing the time surrounding the car and not the car itself, therefore altering/effecting time. Immutable means incapability of modify, but if you slow the car you are modifying the speed by slowing the speed of the car.

Time is supposed to go faster or slower, you would not be changing time, time would not be changing, it would simply be acting exactley how it should and always does act, by going faster, something is not making time go faster.....you are not changing time by going faster...

by time being immutable as the developer explains, they mean one cannot change times events and history, thats the main low down anyway

That is exactly what you are doing. By making it go faster, or slower you are changing time. Time unchanged would be if you did not manipulate it at all. By slowing it, you are manipulating it and therefore proving it is not immutable.

If the developers says time is immutable, they need to extend their vocabulary, because by slowing/halting time, even at minor areas you are changing it. Therefore, making it not-immutable.

explain to me by having a car go faster you are changing time? considering time is a concept speed does not neccerily have to be time, for example, slowing the speed of an enemy, does not mean you are using time to do it, or manipulating time in any way, the opponent is simply going slower, Time is not changing, a slower creature like a tortoise is not changing time in diffrence to the faster cheater, time is the same, it simply acts as what the "passing" of a moment means, just because something passes that moment faster or slower,does not change the moment.

look:

http://www.thelostworlds.net/Defiance/Question_and_Answer_with_Jen,_Richard,_and_Kyle.html

they say:



perhaps what they meant to say was that events in history cannot be changed, maybe your looking too deeply into the "time is immutable" comment but as they say, basically history cannot be changed, Noz could not change an event (he cant really in Warcraft, not if his own strength or such are not capable, he doesnt use power to change time, he uses it to travel it)

BT, go to the Eidos forums for Legacy of Kain.
Me, everyone there, other LoK fans, we all know the truth: that time was changed several times.

It's outright SAID:
Raziel:
Behind Kain's eyes, I could see new memories blooming and dying, as history labored to reshuffle itself around this monumental obstruction...
And I could see by the dawning horror on his face that perhaps we had strained history too far this time...

What's that? History was changed? You have nothing on your side except some worthless words while I have the game itself?

Raziel killed Kain in the tomb of William the Just and then was sucked into the Reaver. That's how time originally happened. After it was CHANGED Blood Omen 2 and Defiance happened. They never happened originally.,
"

But thats the problem, your the one calling them worthless words when their official words direct from the developers themselves, thats the fact itself.

Although time can be reshuffled, its not permanent, all events that will happen or are stated to happen eventually were ALWAYS going to happen, Kain was never going to die, because time was ALWAYS going to reshuffle at that time, so technically, its not a change in time, because time already knew it was going to change, it was already written, which is difficult to comprehend but there ya go, thats lOK for ya, same about Kain not being able to die, he just simply cannot, same with the reaver absorbing Raziel, in the end, the Reaver was always going to get Raziel, Kain simply bided more time by taking it out of Raziel not completly saving him, in the end he was always written to be absorbed and so he does, same with all beings, so time is not really changable, it does change, but its already written to change like that, thats why the events of some of the games are possible.

Except if their words contradictt ehri creation, they are worthless. If time was immutable, LoK would've ended with the Nemesis since Kain wouldn't have been able to change time and kill William.

And yes, Kain died in the original timeline. That's why Raziel was sucked into the Reaver in the first place. Why else would time change when Kain saved him? Because originally Kain was killed in William's Tomb and thus could not save him.

Your not understanding this concept, you see that change in time was not really a change, it was an illusion of choice which the characters talk about throughout the game but every event that was written, would always have happened, Kain will always be saved by something, Kain would always not die in the original timeline because that is the timeline, there is no original, the reshuffle is written in time as well, so technically something changed in time is just an illusion, Kain was always going to change it, or Raziel would have done or whoever etc etc