Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

All tournament participants must vote. Do not abstain. Non-participants/regular viewers must have 1000 posts on KMC forums to vote. Voting is not allowed until the first 12 hours of the match has elapsed.

id369



vs

Psycho Gundam



Area

well, since my "storytelling" got such negative reviews, I guess I have to do this your way.

juggy instantly activates his shield once the match starts.

this is also backed by the power gem so you get the point.
some say it gives off visable light so I guess he can sort of see in the underground tunnel system. if not, he can just smash out of it up onto
ground level.

I'l wait to hear from ID before I go on.

Man, that scan was one of the first ever to float around KMC....back in like early '05. I remember people giving Juggs so much credit when it was posted, because no one had any answer to it.

Good times. Sparse strategy so far, but good times.

Also, id had PMd me his writeup to post, but that was when he thought his match was yesterday. I'd rather wait to see if he'll be on, but if he doesn't, he set me up as the contingency plan and he made a thorough writeup, so if he's not on by early tomorrow, I'll just post it myself.

This vote will probably be horribly wrong by the end of the match, but here it is:

I don't buy Id's prep, not for a second. I won't explain this because I spent my entire last match arguing against it on every level, i'm not going to rehash it. But none the less, I just don't see what Psycho can do to him.

Vote: Id.

Sorry Psycho, I really, really, really wanted to vote for you. But you didn't give me much to work with.

Actually, I would like for you to briefly point out what is wrong with my prep/strategy?

Originally posted by King Kandy
This vote will probably be horribly wrong by the end of the match, but here it is:

I don't buy Id's prep, not for a second. I won't explain this because I spent my entire last match arguing against it on every level, i'm not going to rehash it. But none the less, I just don't see what Psycho can do to him.

Vote: Id.

Sorry Psycho, I really, really, really wanted to vote for you. But you didn't give me much to work with.

Wait before voting this time around King Kandy. This match will last until Sunday until your match is posted. It appears Psycho Gundam is going to respond point for point rather than post a long write-up.

Nate Greys full power matches the Dark Phoenix. This can be confirmed in

^^ I made a small mistake. It takes place in Cable #29, not 39. Sorry ^__^

Originally posted by King Kandy
This vote will probably be horribly wrong by the end of the match, but here it is:

I don't buy Id's prep, not for a second. I won't explain this because I spent my entire last match arguing against it on every level, i'm not going to rehash it. But none the less, I just don't see what Psycho can do to him.

Vote: Id.

Sorry Psycho, I really, really, really wanted to vote for you. But you didn't give me much to work with.

um...1)I don't have prep time.

2)I'm not "allowed" to write in lengths apparently.

sorry i didn't convince you yet....wth!

damn image shack is being a b, i guess i have to do it the long way.

same characters, more power in both, yadda yadda yadda

"nothing can stop the juggernaut"

if that somehow doesn't work(even though it should)or is too slow, he can also perform what I call the anger blast.

basically the frustration gets released by the power gem subconsciously in a burst of omni-directional energy. for example:

or to the extreme:

I don't want to hear any "i'm intangible so I win" or "eventualy______"
no, all professional fighting sports have a must engage rule and points get added to the more aggressive combatant. the force field can't be compromised + it's amped so......tearing it down is a waist of time .

oh yeah, to anyone who disbelieves he can do that sort of thing:
all he has to do is try harder and the power gem will obey

What exactly does that last scan show? That energy clearly isn't from his normal power set, and he's never had the gems before, so what is causing it?

Also, id, what happened to parts 2-3 of the writeup that you sent me via PM? Seems kinda sparse by comparison unless you decided to cut back the strategy.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
2)I'm not "allowed" to write in lengths apparently.

It wasn't about length it was about how you told a story rather than debating in a traditional sense.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
What exactly does that last scan show? That energy clearly isn't from his normal power set, and he's never had the gems before, so what is causing it?

Also, id, what happened to parts 2-3 of the writeup that you sent me via PM? Seems kinda sparse by comparison unless you decided to cut back the strategy.

Its actually his normal powerset. Juggs knows a little magic that got forgotten along the way.

The Grey's have intangibility? If not, I don't really see a way for them to win this.

Originally posted by Papa Smurph
The Grey's have intangibility? If not, I don't really see a way for them to win this.


Turning intangible and being defensive doesn't earn one victory. You actually need defeat, subdue or immobilize your opponent, and not wait it out in intangible form. So, offense is the key to victory.

Originally posted by Papa Smurph
The Grey's have intangibility? If not, I don't really see a way for them to win this.

Yes Nate Grey can phase through solid and organic matter. I can think of 5 times of the top of my head.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
What exactly does that last scan show? That energy clearly isn't from his normal power set, and he's never had the gems before, so what is causing it?

Also, id, what happened to parts 2-3 of the writeup that you sent me via PM? Seems kinda sparse by comparison unless you decided to cut back the strategy.

They where pre-written explanations, in case I got called on them. I was not going to be online for a day or so. I figured I would have that much up, to help my case. I can still post them.

Originally posted by Evangel94
Just so I am clear about your plan; let me see if I have this right.

1. Nate Grey is going to be invisible and intangible.
2. Nate Grey is going to create psi decoys to confuse Juggernaut.


This is in effect at the start of the match. My last actions during my prep. So yes pretty clear.

Originally posted by Evangel94

3. Nate Grey is then going to use his TK to hold down the Juggernaut and keep him from moving.
4. Then when he is not moving and held down via TK, you're going to keep him from moving for 10 minutes and win via immobilization.

#3 - everything is set up to follow this plan. I am aware that he has increased his powers considerably, but so have I.

#4 - Contingency plan, if the TK freeze is not suffice lets see if I can hold him down applying considerably effort. At this point I want to point out that my TK is enough to through One Hitter Quitters, and Shatter the moon.
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/3554/xma45p03ob8rr9.th.jpghttp://img87.imageshack.us/img87/1830/xma45p0506vf6bx0.th.jpg

Note: (Yes that is a theorized power level, Prior to Nate Merging with Alternate Nate. Remember the Current Shaman Nate, who is like Nate Grey 2.0 with crap level of more control. His theorized level of power, is said to be enough to shatter planets).

Originally posted by Evangel94



5. Or when he is held down via TK, Nate is going to use TK to remove the helmet, then the secondary skullcap underneath, and then attack Juggernaut's mind.

Hope I have that right. I Just wanted to briefly summarize your battle strategy in my head.

-Evangel94

Vary accurate, at this point I want to mention that I Nate is known to be strong mult-tasker. A better example would be Cable, if you followed my prep I have gained all of his experience. And since I am his superior, I should be able to pull of everything he has no questions asked.

ID369 gets my vote

since your most powerful attack was nate tangible:
"moons don't hit back"

Do we vote now? If so then my vote goes to Id369. with that intagability I don't see a way for Juggernaut to hit Nate. but being a psi he is perfectly set up to be able to take juggernaut out.

Voting for ID

Voting for id. His prep is extremely strange but it hardly seems like he would need those weird powers to pull off the mindrape he has planned.

Vote for id.

Gundam, you kinda went the other direction from your last match...a few scans, but minus any sort of explanation of how they'd fit into your larger plan, or even in some cases it was missing an explanation of what we were being shown. Blair had to clear up the one scan for me, because I didn't know what I was looking at, and there were a couple others like that too.

Also, this:
Originally posted by psycho gundam
all professional fighting sports have a must engage rule and points get added to the more aggressive combatant.
...is quite obviously worthless for tourney purposes. If a person can use phasing to their advantage, we're not in a MMA match here, so it's not only legal but expected.

And at least one of your scans was from the completed Infinity Gauntlet, not just the power gem (the planet-busting thing, iirc), but it was shown out of context.

...

Id had the fortunate distinction of not needing to convince me one way or another about his uber-mesh. I didn't put a ton of thought into it after reading through it, but that's mainly because competent tk and tp are two crucial ingredients to taking out Juggs efficiently. He has those at base levels, so the mesh, to me, was a moot point for this match. Props on altering some from your last match though. It's a clever strategy if nothing else, and if it works it would make your win easier.

since nobody will actually fight me, I also vote for ID369.

I didn't receive any votes in the other match either, so i get the hint.

If I may, I have a question if someone can answer it; can Telekinesis go through Juggernaut's forcefield?

Originally posted by Evangel94
If I may, I have a question if someone can answer it; can Telekinesis go through Juggernaut's forcefield?

Telepathy and Telekinesis have been shown to work on him when his forcefield is inactive. Telepathy has actually worked on him on quite a few occasions when his forcefield is inactive (Even when he's wearing both his Skull Cap + Helmet).

However on the very rare occasion when he does activate his forcefield, it can stop TK stone cold. Not sure about telepathy because it's never been tested but presumably it can do that too since it stopped telekinesis.

Note - Juggernaut has only activated his forcefield on a handful(I can literally count them on one hand) of occasions throughout his 40+ year comic book career.

Telekinesis (Forcefield) Active

Uncanny X-Men #32
(May 1967)
(Writer: Roy Thomas, Artist: Werner Roth)

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/7594/xmen103217ma2.th.jpg

Telekinesis (Forcefield) Inactive

Uncanny X-Men #46
(July 1968)
(Writer: Gary Friedrich, Artist: Werner Roth)

http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/3852/xmen104611kk8.th.jpghttp://img246.imageshack.us/img246/1776/xmen104612qi6.th.jpghttp://img155.imageshack.us/img155/3461/xmen104613vn8.th.jpg

Originally posted by Evangel94
If I may, I have a question if someone can answer it; can Telekinesis go through Juggernaut's forcefield?

Maybe not (not sure about the limitations) but it works both ways, because Juggs would need to let someone through his forcefield in order to attack them at close range.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
since nobody will actually fight me, I also vote for ID369.

I didn't receive any votes in the other match either, so i get the hint.

Don't hold such a grudge. It puts people off, and I mean personally, not as it pertains to tourneys.

People legitimately voted against you because they thought your opponent presented a better argument. It's not personal, and it's not a "hint," but merely a logical appraisal of the match.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Maybe not (not sure about the limitations) but it works both ways, because Juggs would need to let someone through his forcefield in order to attack them at close range.

If Juggernaut had an inclination on how to use the Space Gem then that may not factor in.
But I agree with the general consensus, Psycho G does have a powerful amalgam that could very well have won this match if used right but id369 presented his case better even though I was a little bit confused with some of his prep/strategy.

id for reasons others have listed.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
since nobody will actually fight me, I also vote for ID369.

I didn't receive any votes in the other match either, so i get the hint.
Don't take it personally. No one's knocking the power of your amalgam, it's just that versatility kills in these events and that's one area that your amalgam is sorely lacking in. If you want to see the kinds of things that go over well with the judges for next time then you should check out some past tourney threads...

Question:

On what basis are we supposed to vote on?

1.) Do we vote based on just the information to presented to us and analyze the debate as if we're seeing the evidence for the first time?

or

2.) Or do we include our own knowledge when voting? eg. Participant may not have mentioned Factor B(May not know about about Factor B) but you know of Factor B. Factor B could have one the Participant the match.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Question:

On what basis are we supposed to vote on?

1.) Do we vote based on just the information to presented to us and analyze the debate as if we're seeing the evidence for the first time?

or

2.) Or do we include our own knowledge when voting? eg. Participant may not have mentioned Factor B but you know of Factor B. Factor B could have one the Participant the match.

Evangel made a rule/suggestion to "assume the minimum" about a character, such as the last match where Doom had 36 hours of prep but he didn't turn in a writeup...we were allowed to extrapolate for ourselves the "minimum" of what Doom might do with that time, which is still quite formidable.

So we can use our own knowledge, and go beyond what the participants say in the debates. Most voters tend to put less importance on that than in-thread debating and plans, but it should be a consideration.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Evangel made a rule/suggestion to "assume the minimum" about a character, such as the last match where Doom had 36 hours of prep but he didn't turn in a writeup...we were allowed to extrapolate for ourselves the "minimum" of what Doom might do with that time, which is still quite formidable.

So we can use our own knowledge, and go beyond what the participants say in the debates. Most voters tend to put less importance on that than in-thread debating and plans, but it should be a consideration.

that's actually a good rule. i like the way evangel dealt with that. it's always a problem for judges to keep their own thoughts seperate from what is shown in a match.

I'd like to remind everyone who still wants to vote, that you must vote before 12:30 PM Central Standard Time.

final statement, this also goes with the other match I "lost".
all I wanted was juggy to activate the force field for this tournament.
since this is a tournament you would expect him to try to win so logically the field goes up without hesitation. now, it's undebatable if the power gem backs the field but not really sure if he would need that anyway.

in essence, it's an absolute defense and everybody and their grandma knows he doesn't tire or weaken so......how do you win again?

Originally posted by psycho gundam
final statement, this also goes with the other match I "lost".
all I wanted was juggy to activate the force field for this tournament.
since this is a tournament you would expect him to try to win so logically the field goes up without hesitation. now, it's undebatable if the power gem backs the field but not really sure if he would need that anyway.

in essence, it's an absolute defense and everybody and their grandma knows he doesn't tire or weaken so......how do you win again?

I don't want to interfere, but I do want to respond to this.

What's being argued isn't your forcefield's power; yes it is powerful. But the problem is that the moment Juggernaut lowers his forcefield to punch or attack, id369's character will use his telekinesis to remove your helmet and skull cap to attack Juggernaut's mind.

I am not trying to debate for psycho gundam, but I would like to know something about Juggernaut if anyone can answer it. Tournaments after all can be a learning experience for all those involved.

I vaguely recall Juggernaut's helmet and skullcap being made out of special material. Perhaps provided by cytorak that give it special properties. Anyone care to elaborate on this?s

Originally posted by Evangel94
I don't want to interfere, but I do want to respond to this.

What's being argued isn't your forcefield's power; yes it is powerful. But the problem is that the moment Juggernaut lowers his forcefield to punch or attack, id369's character will use his telekinesis to remove your helmet and skull cap to attack Juggernaut's mind.

Basically what Evangel said. Juggs can win this fight, but I see this as a more likely scenario, since he'd need to be on his A-game with the gems in order to touch and/or harm Nate. Juggs has to lower his shield, and when he does Nate's tailor-made to take him out with tk and tp.

Originally posted by Evangel94
I don't want to interfere, but I do want to respond to this.

What's being argued isn't your forcefield's power; yes it is powerful. But the problem is that the moment Juggernaut lowers his forcefield to punch or attack, id369's character will use his telekinesis to remove your helmet and skull cap to attack Juggernaut's mind. is that how it works? he can't hit with th force field on? not too sure about that.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
is that how it works? he can't hit with th force field on? not too sure about that.

How would he though? If the other person can't get through the forcefield, and Juggs is relegated to physical attacks, it's an inevitibility that it would need to come down to mount an offense.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems physically impossible otherwise, and Exodus said that Juggs has only used his shield 5-6 times ever, so I doubt there's contrary evidence.

And with all the votes, I'm assuming this match is all but officially over. If it was close, I'd be shutting up right now. As it is, this discussion is probably harmless.

In short what I did in prep can be set as so.

Unleash his full potential.
Get In Cerebra
Recreate some characters - Xavier, Stryfe, Cable, and Jean.


1) Strfye, Xavier and Cable where recreated for the puprose of me gaining all that they know.

2) Jean was recreated, for the puropse of linking her mind, which is currently shattered. It takes a double dip effect, since I gain the phoenix conscious in the process.

I proceed to transfer Jeans consious onto The Rapture.

Finally I prepared for battle.

I would actually like to know, what is and isn't within reason. Or if anything needs some explanation.

Votes for id369: 8
Papa Smurph
Creshosk
Devil Lance
Symmetric Chaos
DigiMark007
ExodusCloak
darthgoober
King Kandy

Votes for psycho gundam: N/A

id369 advances to the next round with a (1-1) record, while psycho gundam gets sent the last chance finale.

Final Thoughts: It appears peopple thought Psycho Gundam could have won, but didn't present a strong case for his amalgam compared to id369. Psycho Gundam imo debated better than his last battle. But voters felt id369 still presented his case better. He argued that while Nate could remained invisible and intangible, he could use TK to remove the helmet and skullcap and attack Juggernaut's mind. Juggernaut however could not "hit" Nate according to id369 while Nate could attack Juggernaut, and the voters agreed.

I am not sure this is possible because I recall the helmet being made of special material from cytorak that prevents all but physical removal, but again I am not sure. Perhaps someone can clear this up for me.

Don't worry Psycho Gundam, you still have a chance in the last chance finale round.