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Weapons, objects, items of power or anything that people can use to enhance their own abilities. From the Heart of The Infinite to a legion flight ring and T'Challa's vibranium Weave suit.

Infinite Power
HOTI, Infinity Guantlet,

Unlimited Power
Cosmic Cube, Crimson Gem of Cyttorak, Mind Gem, Power Gem, Reality Gem, Soul Gem, Space Gem, Time Gem, The Spear of Destiny, Ultimate Nullifier, Worlogogg,

Imaginable Power (Items limited only by imagination)
Darkness, Excalibur, Lanten Rings, Mjolnir, Nega Bands, Quantum Bands, Witchblade

Limited Power (Items limited by conventional means)
Black Panther's Vibranium Weave Suit, Captain America's Shield, Iron Man Armor, Legion Flight Ring,

This is just a quick start so just feel free to copy and add more as you see fit. I'm sure I'll think of more very soon to add.
I would now but my girl just showed up with food and I'm bout to eat before work.

Originally posted by Entity
Infinite Power

. . . .

Unlimited Power

Gonna need different names.

Imaginable Power (Items limited only by imagination)
-Shaman's Medicine Pouch
-Talisman of Power used by Talisman

Infinity Guantlet needs to be lower
So do all the gems

Ultimate nullifier needs to be higher

Gem of cy needs to be lower

Eye of Agamotto needs to be added
Orb of Agamotto needs to be added
Amulet of Agamotto needs to be added
Book of the Vishanti needs to be added
Celestial nullifier needs to be added
Sword of might needs to be added
Sword of power needs to be added
amulet of right needs to be added
Entropy aegis needs to be added

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Imaginable Power (Items limited only by imagination)
-Shaman's Medicine Pouch
-Talisman of Power used by Talisman

'Green Lantern Ring'?

Originally posted by Soljer
'Green Lantern Ring'?

Already on the list?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Already on the list?

Paying attention's overrated.

Unlimited power - needs name change

infinite power being the greatest...having a lower tier called unlimited power doesn't make sense

you may group it as Tier 1 Infinite/ Tier 2 Infinite, or maybe alpha, beta, etc

also imaginable power is basically unlimited power as well.

good idea, just needs better distinction between the groups

Worlogog needs to be higher...... estahuh

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Gonna need different names. Well I see it as Infinite level items have infinite power meaning all of infinity is influenced by their power. They are capable of literally anything even beyond imagination and limitations. Unlimited is similar but not necessarily infinite. They have no top out limit but that doesn't mean they are able to effect everything. For instance the Power Gem is able to supply unlimited power but can't effect minds, time, space or souls in the way infinitely powered items could.

The Gem of Cyttorak is potentially able to make its wielder completely unstoppable so it's unlimited in that sense but it isn't infinitely powerful to where it could control or overcome things such as free will or change reality and how the universe works.

Does that help make as much sense to you as it does to me? Not sure if I used the best wording to describe my understanding of the difference between the two.

I may still eventually change the levels but not until I can have something more clear and true to their differences. IMO

Infinite Power
HOTI, Infinity Gauntlet,

Unlimited Power
Cosmic Cube, Crimson Gem of Cyttorak, Mind Gem, Power Gem, Reality Gem, Soul Gem, Space Gem, Time Gem, The Spear of Destiny, Ultimate Nullifier, Worlogogg,

Imaginable Power (Items limited only by imagination)
Darkness, Excalibur, Lantern Rings, Mjolnir, Nega Bands, Quantum Bands, Shaman's Medicine Pouch, Talisman of Power, Witchblade,

Limited Power (Items limited by conventional means)
Black Panther's Vibranium Weave Suit, Captain America's Shield, Iron Man Armor, Legion Flight Ring, Symbiotes,

Want to add these, Amulet of Agamotto, Amulet of Right, Book of the Vishanti, Eye of Agamotto, Orb of Agamotto, Sword of might, Sword of power,
but I need a good level for them between Limited and Imaginable. Unless you would think limited works but I'm thinking something slightly higher like Semi limited (Limited to beyond conventional means). Any ideas?

New to me, need more info for proper classification!
Celestial Nullifier, Entropy Aegis

twilight sword

Originally posted by Entity
Symbiotes

Symbiotes aren't artifacts there living parasites!!!!


Show some respect

Originally posted by Entity
Well I see it as Infinite level items have infinite power meaning all of infinity is influenced by their power. They are capable of literally anything even beyond imagination and limitations. Unlimited is similar but not necessarily infinite. They have no top out limit but that doesn't mean they are able to effect everything. For instance the Power Gem is able to supply unlimited power but can't effect minds, time, space or souls in the way infinitely powered items could.

The Gem of Cyttorak is potentially able to make its wielder completely unstoppable so it's unlimited in that sense but it isn't infinitely powerful to where it could control or overcome things such as free will or change reality and how the universe works.

Does that help make as much sense to you as it does to me? Not sure if I used the best wording to describe my understanding of the difference between the two.

I may still eventually change the levels but not until I can have something more clear and true to their differences. IMO


T- that just made me more confused.

Originally posted by Soljer
'Green Lantern Ring'?

Yeah and both artifacts they can do with whatever comes to mind, as Shaman thinks of what he wants and pulls it out of his pouch through hammerspace, and with the Talisman power and knowledge is constantly fed to her

Unlimited Power:
Moubis Chair

Limited Power:
Cloak of Levetation

batman utility belt?

Originally posted by Entity
Well I see it as Infinite level items have infinite power meaning all of infinity is influenced by their power. They are capable of literally anything even beyond imagination and limitations. Unlimited is similar but not necessarily infinite. They have no top out limit but that doesn't mean they are able to effect everything. For instance the Power Gem is able to supply unlimited power but can't effect minds, time, space or souls in the way infinitely powered items could.

The Gem of Cyttorak is potentially able to make its wielder completely unstoppable so it's unlimited in that sense but it isn't infinitely powerful to where it could control or overcome things such as free will or change reality and how the universe works.

Does that help make as much sense to you as it does to me? Not sure if I used the best wording to describe my understanding of the difference between the two.

I may still eventually change the levels but not until I can have something more clear and true to their differences. IMO

Infinite Power
HOTI, Infinity Gauntlet,

Unlimited Power
Cosmic Cube, Crimson Gem of Cyttorak, Mind Gem, Power Gem, Reality Gem, Soul Gem, Space Gem, Time Gem, The Spear of Destiny, Ultimate Nullifier, Worlogogg,

Imaginable Power (Items limited only by imagination)
Darkness, Excalibur, Lantern Rings, Mjolnir, Nega Bands, Quantum Bands, Shaman's Medicine Pouch, Talisman of Power, Witchblade,

Limited Power (Items limited by conventional means)
Black Panther's Vibranium Weave Suit, Captain America's Shield, Iron Man Armor, Legion Flight Ring, Symbiotes,

Want to add these, Amulet of Agamotto, Amulet of Right, Book of the Vishanti, Eye of Agamotto, Orb of Agamotto, Sword of might, Sword of power,
but I need a good level for them between Limited and Imaginable. Unless you would think limited works but I'm thinking something slightly higher like Semi limited (Limited to beyond conventional means). Any ideas?

New to me, need more info for proper classification!
Celestial Nullifier, Entropy Aegis

Gauntlet needs to be bumped down to Unlimited Power
The sword of might and Amulet of right are also on Unlimited Power
All of the vishanti things are on Imaginable Power
The gems need to be bumped down to Imaginable Power
Celestial nullifer needs to be at Imaginable Power
Entropy aegis needs to be at Imaginable Power

Lulz at the Spear of Destiny and the Worlogog being below the Infinity Gauntlet and in the same group with the Gems.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Lulz at the Spear of Destiny and the Worlogog being below the Infinity Gauntlet and in the same group with the Gems.
why do you think they should be above the gauntlet?

Originally posted by LORD B
why do you think they should be above the gauntlet?

Worlogog = Total control over creation from the Big Bang to the End.

Spear of Destiny = One of, if not the most powerfull artifact in the DCU. It is capable of beating Spectre aswell as one-shotting Thunderbolt.

And these ones are in the same group with the likes of power gem ?

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Worlogog = Total control over creation from the Big Bang to the End.

Spear of Destiny = One of, if not the most powerfull artifact in the DCU. It is capable of beating Spectre aswell as one-shotting Thunderbolt.

And these ones are in the same group with the likes of power gem ?


good points

The Sword of Superman is also up there as one of the most powerfull artifacts in comics.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr

Worlogog = Total control over creation from the Big Bang to the End.

Spear of Destiny = One of, if not the most powerfull artifact in the DCU.
It is capable of beating Spectre aswell as one-shotting Thunderbolt.

And these ones are in the same group with the likes of power gem ?
If that's true about the Worlogog, (where is that stated and/or depicted?)
then it should be above any single Gem and possibly equal to the IG,
as the IG gives its wielder control over all creation,
in fact, it makes one "god" beneath the LT.

As for the Spear of Desitny,
I can't make comparisons as I understand Spectre's power fluxuates,
aside from that, if that's the Spear's only feat, it lessens perspective even further.

btw. The IG is the most powerful artifact in Marvel,
only a full potential CCU gives it a run for its money in Marvel.

Not to mention 2 other things. The Spear allows the user to control superpowered beings. it's the reason the allied heroes couldn't attack the axis during WW2. 2nd, the spear infects the user with Hitler's evil.

Originally posted by Entity
Weapons, objects, items of power or anything that people can use to enhance their own abilities. From the Heart of The Infinite to a legion flight ring and T'Challa's vibranium Weave suit.

Infinite Power
HOTI, Infinity Guantlet,

Unlimited Power
Cosmic Cube, Crimson Gem of Cyttorak, Mind Gem, Power Gem, Reality Gem, Soul Gem, Space Gem, Time Gem, The Spear of Destiny, Ultimate Nullifier, Worlogogg,

Imaginable Power (Items limited only by imagination)
Darkness, Excalibur, Lanten Rings, Mjolnir, Nega Bands, Quantum Bands, Witchblade

Limited Power (Items limited by conventional means)
Black Panther's Vibranium Weave Suit, Captain America's Shield, Iron Man Armor, Legion Flight Ring,
Surfer's board: Imaginable power.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
2nd, the spear infects the user with Hitler's evil.

hysterical2

.............................................................................................


This is a cool feat: (concerning its potentiality)

Excalibur frightened an entity,
an entity that embodied the Concept of Death/Entropy and Oblivion all in one.
in fact, Excalibur was literally able to kill this being:


His name is Jude:


Jude (the Concept of Death)

http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/6882/death1mw9.th.jpg

http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/3792/death2jx1.th.jpg

.............................................................................................

Jude (the Concept of Entropy)

http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/2861/entropykx0.th.jpg

http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/9066/entropy2af0.th.jpg

.............................................................................................

Jude (the Concept of Oblivion)

http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/1751/oblivionky2.th.jpg

.............................................................................................


Jude had to obey Mephisto while he wielded Excalibur,
for fear of it's own death at the edge of the sword:

http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/9880/sword15pe8.th.jpg

Hourman is breaking the Worlogog into tachyons and retains only a fraction of it ..
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_Hourman1MilFraction.jpg
Yet he is still capable of stoping the Big Bang of a Universe ..
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_BIgBangStopFraction.jpg

Hourman also told Kyle Rayner (Green Lantern) that the Worlogog can do anything he can imagine.And I don't see why feats are needed in this case. There have been numerous statements confirming the Worlogog's potential, from different persons. It's like "hey, I don't like how powerfull they say it is so show me some feats".



Thanos with the HoTU is pretty much the top dog in Marvel yet, in order to recreate what he had destroyed, he still had to give up all the power he posessed. Not to mention that he wasn't Omnipotent, since he couldn't fix the flaw without destroying and recreating the Universe.



He is < Thanos w/HoTU. And this "spins Marvel's history in one hand" was obviously a metaphor for how he is the cosmic judge.



Even you said that the Scathan situation isn't exactly conclusive and he might have been an 'agent' used by TOAA.



You've already discussed this with GalacticStorm and honestly I'm not really in the mood to start this discussion only to get to the point where we move in circles.



They are < Living Tribunal who is < the HoTU.



I don't know anything about him so I won't comment.



Nothing she did the Worlogog couldn't do.



Not even close.



I'll be reading about this.



I'm not too well versed in these 2 objects either although, from what I've seen, the Celestial Nulifier can erase any object in the Marvel 'Omniverse', right ? If that's the case, what exactly does it make it 'Omniversal' ? Can it erase all the 'Omniverse' at once ?



If that's the case, then they don't come close to the Worlogog either.



I'll be reading it when I have time.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
hysterical2

Are you saying Hitler wasn't evil?

Originally posted by willRules
Are you saying Hitler wasn't evil?

No, it's just a hysterical curse.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
No, it's just a hysterical curse. In his last mini, Dr Strange was shot by a gun, that went through his spells and shields and stuff, because it was tainted by Hitler's evil, or some crazy shit.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
No, it's just a hysterical curse.




I was hankering for a debate....curse you Sym and your reasonably agreeable points of view

The Helm of Nabu and the amulet of Anubis should probably be on there somewhere but i'm not sure where I'd put them.

there was a jla volume, canrt remeber which one where luthor and his injustice gang were in full effect and he got a hold of the worlogog and he too was spouting some of that same kind of talk about its unlimited potential...plus it was a major player in the maggedon fiasco so i dont know how to rank it against marvel artifacts but i do know that it i s still serious business, so at the very least i would put it at the IG equal

Originally posted by Mindship
Surfer's board: Imaginable power.

Surfer's board is worthless in comparison to Lantern Rings or Mjolnir.

Surfer himself is more comparable to Mjolnir or a ring.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr

Hourman is breaking the Worlogog into tachyons and retains only a fraction of it ..

Yet he is still capable of stoping the Big Bang of a Universe ..
Nice, so on panel, it performed a Universal feat ... same as Excalibur.

Both are stated to control all of Creation.

Similarities?

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr

Hourman also told Kyle Rayner (Green Lantern)
that the Worlogog can do anything he can imagine.
3 different sources (including Roma)
stated Excalibur/Amulet can,
remake the Cosmos/sunder the Omniverse/protect the Omniverse.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr

And I don't see why feats are needed in this case.
There have been numerous statements confirming the Worlogog's potential,
from different persons.
It's like
"hey, I don't like how powerfull they say it is so show me some feats".
dontgetit

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr

Thanos with the HoTU is pretty much the top dog in Marvel yet,
in order to recreate what he had destroyed
That's not true.

Thanos didn't have to destroy in order to re-create,
thanos had to erase in order to heal.

Thanos had already remade the Universe prior in the End:
when he nulled Akhenaten's Reality tamperings,
he also warped the 4321 Reality to distort Akhenaten's Timeline.

The "flaw" though, was still there,
cause it's only remedy (even for god) was absorption/complete re-creation.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr

1. he still had to give up all the power he posessed.


2. Not to mention that he wasn't Omnipotent,
since he couldn't fix the flaw without destroying and recreating the Universe.
Not true.

1. Thanos gave up the power willingly,
as he always have while possessing infinite power.


2. That was the manner in which it was to be fixed, so in fact, Thanos did Fix the flaw.

Thanos absorbed the LT, aside from All of Space/Time in Marvel, I mean, come on.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr

1. He is < Thanos w/HoTU.

2. And this "spins Marvel's history in one hand"
was obviously a metaphor for how he is the cosmic judge.
1. That's my point.


2. I'll use your analogy (with a twist)

It's like,
"hey, I don't like what the writer is stating so I'll just spin (dismiss) his words. "

.............................................................................

"a metaphor for how he is the cosmic judge?" ermmno

http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/2936/ltrulescl3.th.jpg

The Tribunal is serene in His Omnipotence (hmm, yet THOTI isn't?)

"the Pulse of Creation reverberates through him, (LT) for he (LT) is its Heart,
ALPHA & OMEGA revolve on the Wheel of Destiny,
a Destiny SPUN by HIS (LT) mighty Hand"

.............................................................................

There, without any spinning of the words, the Writer clearly/definitively states,
that the LT controls/holds the Beginning and End in one hand.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr

1. Even you said that the Scathan situation isn't exactly conclusive

2. and he might have been an 'agent' used by TOAA.
1. I said that until I found out it was 100% canon,
and recognized as legit feat by Marvel:

(excerpt from the 2006 Handbook LT - bio)
http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/6676/scathanvt3.th.jpg

"The LT was nearly usurped by Protege,
who manifested the LT's own power,
Scathan the Celestial saved Reality by judging Protege"


2. That's always been just my speculation (with reason) but it's no fact,
this is a Fact: Scathan = LT ... how? ... that's the mystery.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr

You've already discussed this with GalacticStorm and honestly I'm not really in the mood to start this discussion only to get to the point where we move in circles.

Everything in Marvel is just one big ass 616,
one Universe (616)
that has expanded into a infinite branch of infinite UniverseS called the Omniverse.

616, is "the Core Reality from which All others come"

http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/719/616fl1.th.jpg
(god-like Mar-vell speaking)

.............................................................................

Again:


616, "is the Core, the First World from which even this Reality ... derived"

http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/8159/6162tj1.th.jpg
(X-51 - the new Watcher, speaking)

He even goes on,
and calls 616 "the Core" and "this Reality" (Earth-9997) the Marvel Universe.

This is because, everything is part of the Marvel Universe (616)
since everything flows from the Prime/Core Reality.


Here are some other examples:

.............................................................................

616, is the Prime Reality ... if it dies, the entire Marvel Universe dies:

(Ute, the Watcher speaking)

http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/5074/616if9.th.jpg

"Or THIS, the Prime Reality (616) will fall and with it ... ALL EXISTENCE"

.............................................................................

Confirmed by Uatu as well:

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/7572/96351941pf7.th.jpg

"We concluded that the destruction of This Universe
would Expand outward from This Universe ...
we call it 616 ... to engulf All Others ... "


http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/3118/78090319qu9.th.jpg

"If your World Dies now, Stephen, it will take Everything with it.
Not only This Universe (616) but All the Other UniverseS as well.
Everything there is, will End.
Or rather put it even more simply,
Everything will never have been"

.............................................................................

Everything will never have been"

(because without 616,
there never was an Omniverse/Megaverse/Multiverse or anything,
because everything comes from 616)


This isn't just talk, Dormammu literally witnessed in the core of 616,
the Marvel Universe (everything) taking shape:

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/2718/47980481ws8.th.jpg

"Wolds within Worlds, Dimensions folding into themselves,
Entire UniverseS being born, and collapsing into ruin,
and yet I sense that ALL This -- is but a fraction of what Eternity is,

the core, the Heart of Eternity's being ... here All Energy, All Matter, lies,
I will detonate Eternity's Heart --- triggering another Creation event,
Re-Birthing every being and thing in All the UniverseS"

.............................................................................

So ...

when the Alien Entity folded ALL the History of the 616 Universe,
he in fact, folded ALL of Marvel.

Indeed, it was Marvel (616) at it's Pre-Big Bang state: (the Void)

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/8331/bbdk1.th.jpg

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/6172/bb2ah3.th.jpg


And ... since it is a FACT, that all Realities flow from 616,
it's obvious what the Alien Entity did.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr

They are < Living Tribunal who is < the HoTU.
Again, that's my point, they are beneath the LT, (as are the others I mentioned)
and they can all control creation.

The LT himself is also beneath the HOTI, and the LT controls all of Creation.

So again,
my point was and still is,
just cause a being or thing can control creation,
doesn't make them the Supreme Being (HOTI)

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr

I don't know anything about him so I won't comment.
I already told you about him,
he can control ALL of Creation.

He literally made even Oblivion 616 tremble,
when he threatened to revert the entire Marvel Universe back to it's Cosmic Egg.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr

Nothing she did the Worlogog couldn't do.
Only Wanda did warp the entire 616 Reality,
tore the Omniverse to pieces,
then put the Omniverse back together again, with a phrase.


While the Worlogog's potential is theoretical technically speaking.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr

Not even close.
Ha, you have a universal feat and several statements for the Worlogog,
the IG (heck Incomplete IG) has performed Multiversal feats,
4 Gems performed Multi-Universal feats, and nearly collapsed the Omniverse)

Not just talk, oh, but there is talk,
the IG makes one "God/Omnipotent" on panel, (different sources)
confirmed by Starling in his Marvel Age interview,
makes one Omnipotent according to the IG bio at Marvel.com

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Infinity_Gauntlet_%28item%29

Powers: "Absolute Omnipotence when the Gems are used altogether"

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr

I'll be reading about this.
Cool,
but you're not going to discover anything more interesting than what I posted,
good story though.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr

I'm not too well versed in these 2 objects either although, from what I've seen,

1. the Celestial Nulifier can erase any object in the Marvel 'Omniverse', right ?
If that's the case, what exactly does it make it 'Omniversal' ?

2. Can it erase all the 'Omniverse' at once ?

1. Actually it can erase any Universe in the Omniverse,

2. The CN nullifies a tiny crystal that contains the life-force of a Universe,
the Celestial Guardian possess every crystal,
that pertains to every Universe in the Omniverse.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr

If that's the case, then they don't come close to the Worlogog either.
You mean based on your opinion that the Warlogog is = to the HOTI?

I haven't seen a single shred of evidence that even alludes to that notion.

The Gog's potential is NOT theoretical. We saw what it could do when Extant took it. He unmade the universe. And then restructured it and the laws of physics, reality, and logic. Extant destroyed all future timelines and ended the universe prematurely. The wave of destruction was going backwards, and at the end, only Extant's universe would have existed.

He was stopped only because the Worlogog was incomplete. Hourman had the last fragment.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest

The Gog's potential is NOT theoretical.
I was basing my argument on what Erik was posting.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest

We saw what it could do when Extant took it. He unmade the universe.
And then restructured it and the laws of physics, reality, and logic.
Same as Excalibur.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest

Extant destroyed all future timelines and ended the universe prematurely.
The wave of destruction was going backwards,
and at the end, only Extant's universe would have existed.

He was stopped only because the Worlogog was incomplete.
Hourman had the last fragment.
Impressive, but this doesn't tell me it's = to HOTI. (Supreme being's power)

Still sounds like Excalibur/Amulet, or perhaps even the IG.

btw. You have those scans? (sounds like something nice to see)

Originally posted by Soljer
Surfer's board is worthless in comparison to Lantern Rings or Mjolnir.

Surfer himself is more comparable to Mjolnir or a ring.

Or the power cosmic, as we chumps call it

Originally posted by Mr Master
Impressive, but this doesn't tell me it's = to HOTI. (Supreme being's power)

The feat is identical to the HOTU's feat . . .

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
The feat is identical to the HOTU's feat . . .
I have to disagree.

The HOTI first defeated nearly every being/entity Marvel could throw at it,
then it absorbed all of space/time,
then it recreated all of space/time.

The HOTI was also stated to be,
the actual power of "God" ... "Supreme Being" ... "Supreme Power" ...
(on panel by Eternity/the LT/Warlock/Thanos/Thor/Zeus,
Thanos becoming "God" was confirmed in an official Marvel Handbook as well)

THOTI's greatest feat is absorbing the LT like a mote in a storm.

Imo, erasing/recreating space/time does not make one the Supreme Being.

....................................................................................................

1. Sis-Neg
2. The Alien Entity
3. Entropy/Genis
4. Wanda

have all re-created all of Marvel's space/time on panel.

5. the BeyonderS should be able to as well,
since one CCU (a tiny fraction or their power)
has proven to be able to influence all of Marvel.
Heck,
Post-retcon Molecule Man is stated to be by the LT himself,
"one of the most powerful beings in all Creation" (all of Marvel),
indeed,
in his battle with Post-retcon Beyonder reality was warped across the Omniverse,

6. Moore's Jaspers 616 collapsed the Omniverse in a possible alternate future.

7. Edifice Rex threatened to fold all of space/time to it's Cosmic Egg,
and he was capable, proven as the entire hierarchy was pooping in their pants.

8. Havok/Nexus was also able (easily) to collapse the Omniverse,
indeed, he nullified the Goblin Force from every Reality in Marvel,
the Goblin Force was seeking his power to control the infinite # of MultiverseS.

9. Merlin/Matrix was also an absolute Omniversal power,
he literally fused the entire Omniverse's life-force into tiny crystals,
which can then be easily crushed withIN the Celestial Nullifier to erase any Universe.

....................................................................................................

That's several honorary mentions, (there's actually more)
yet, All of these cats above are below the Living Tribunal.

So none of them are remotely close to being = to the Supreme Being (HOTI)
(yet, they have all at one point or another,
in some form or another controlled creation,
or proven to be able to control creation by other factors)

The Living Tribunal controls the Beginning and End of all things in the Omniverse,
Scathan is canonically somewhere equal to the LT.

Needless to say,
the LT is insignificance next to THOTI.

....................................................................................................

So again,
I still haven't heard of any reason to believe,
Warlogog = the power of the Supreme Being of DC,
and I surely haven't seen anything to suggest so.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I have to disagree.

The HOTI first defeated nearly every being/entity Marvel could throw at it,
then it absorbed all of space/time,
then it recreated all of space/time.

The HOTI was also stated to be,
the actual power of "God" ... "Supreme Being" ... "Supreme Power" ...
(on panel by Eternity/the LT/Warlock/Thanos/Thor/Zeus,
Thanos becoming "God" was confirmed in an official Marvel Handbook as well)

THOTI's greatest feat is absorbing the LT like a mote in a storm.

Imo, erasing/recreating space/time does not make one the Supreme Being.

....................................................................................................

1. Sis-Neg
2. The Alien Entity
3. Entropy/Genis
4. Wanda

have all re-created all of Marvel's space/time on panel.

5. the BeyonderS should be able to as well,
since one CCU (a tiny fraction or their power)
has proven to be able to influence all of Marvel.
Heck,
Post-retcon Molecule Man is stated to be by the LT himself,
"one of the most powerful beings in all Creation" (all of Marvel),
indeed,
in his battle with Post-retcon Beyonder reality was warped across the Omniverse,

6. Moore's Jaspers 616 collapsed the Omniverse in a possible alternate future.

7. Edifice Rex threatened to fold all of space/time to it's Cosmic Egg,
and he was capable, proven as the entire hierarchy was pooping in their pants.

8. Havok/Nexus was also able (easily) to collapse the Omniverse,
indeed, he nullified the Goblin Force from every Reality in Marvel,
the Goblin Force was seeking his power to control the infinite # of MultiverseS.

9. Merlin/Matrix was also an absolute Omniversal power,
he literally fused the entire Omniverse's life-force into tiny crystals,
which can then be easily crushed withIN the Celestial Nullifier to erase any Universe.

....................................................................................................

That's several honorary mentions, (there's actually more)
yet, All of these cats above are below the Living Tribunal.

So none of them are remotely close to being = to the Supreme Being (HOTI)
(yet, they have all at one point or another,
in some form or another controlled creation,
or proven to be able to control creation by other factors)

The Living Tribunal controls the Beginning and End of all things in the Omniverse,
Scathan is canonically somewhere equal to the LT.

Needless to say,
the LT is insignificance next to THOTI.

....................................................................................................

So again,
I still haven't heard of any reason to believe,
Warlogog = the power of the Supreme Being of DC,
and I surely haven't seen anything to suggest so.

It was used to unmake all of reality from beginning to end including every alternate timeline and universe

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
It was used to unmake all of reality from beginning to end
including every alternate timeline and universe
Trick had a different observation,
yours is equal to what Wanda did, or the Alien Entity.
Although, the Alien Entity literally re-created the Marvel Universe from scratch,
by harnessing,
and ultimately merging with the energies of creation from its Pre-Big Bang point.

Wanda collapsed the Omniverse subconsciously,
but consciously remade the 616 Reality, and ultimately put the Omniverse back.

Entropy/Genis ended the Marvel Universe. (everything)
Entropy literally re-created the Marvel Universe with his own power. (his conceptual purpose)

Zemo showed us a 616 Future in which Photon erased 616 and every other Timeline.
Cobweb showed us a possible Future in which Jaspers collapsed the entire Omniverse.

These aren't even the most powerful beings in Marvel, I mentioned bigger cats above,
and yet, their power is/was sufficient to wack even remake all Creation.

===

Again, Imo, based on this logic with examples,
destroying/re-creating creation does not make one the Supreme Being. (HOTI)

===

If the Worlogog on panel did unmake everything (Timelines and all) - I'd like to see that,
then it is definitely in the level of "Gods"
(the likes of the IG/Excalibur-Amulet/Merlin-Matrix/hom-Wanda
and other ubers I mentioned earlier)

but not of the Supreme Being, not just based on that feat atleast.

The HOTI is something akin to the Presence of DC, imo.


That aside, where's the depiction of this Worlogog feat taking place on panel?

Originally posted by Mr Master
.............................................................................................


This is a cool feat: (concerning its potentiality)

Excalibur frightened an entity,
an entity that embodied the Concept of Death/Entropy and Oblivion all in one.
in fact, Excalibur was literally able to kill this being:


His name is Jude:


Jude (the Concept of Death)

http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/6882/death1mw9.th.jpg

http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/3792/death2jx1.th.jpg

.............................................................................................

Jude (the Concept of Entropy)

http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/2861/entropykx0.th.jpg

http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/9066/entropy2af0.th.jpg

.............................................................................................

Jude (the Concept of Oblivion)

http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/1751/oblivionky2.th.jpg

.............................................................................................


Jude had to obey Mephisto while he wielded Excalibur,
for fear of it's own death at the edge of the sword:

http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/9880/sword15pe8.th.jpg

Er... non-canon...

Originally posted by Mr Master
Everything in Marvel is just one big ass 616,
one Universe (616)
that has expanded into a infinite branch of infinite UniverseS called the Omniverse.

616, is "the Core Reality from which All others come"

http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/719/616fl1.th.jpg
(god-like Mar-vell speaking)

.............................................................................

Again:


616, "is the Core, the First World from which even this Reality ... derived"

http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/8159/6162tj1.th.jpg
(X-51 - the new Watcher, speaking)

He even goes on,
and calls 616 "the Core" and "this Reality" (Earth-9997) the Marvel Universe.

This is because, everything is part of the Marvel Universe (616)
since everything flows from the Prime/Core Reality.


Here are some other examples:

.............................................................................

616, is the Prime Reality ... if it dies, the entire Marvel Universe dies:

(Ute, the Watcher speaking)

http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/5074/616if9.th.jpg

"Or THIS, the Prime Reality (616) will fall and with it ... ALL EXISTENCE"

.............................................................................

Confirmed by Uatu as well:

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/7572/96351941pf7.th.jpg

"We concluded that the destruction of This Universe
would Expand outward from This Universe ...
we call it 616 ... to engulf All Others ... "


http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/3118/78090319qu9.th.jpg

"If your World Dies now, Stephen, it will take Everything with it.
Not only This Universe (616) but All the Other UniverseS as well.
Everything there is, will End.
Or rather put it even more simply,
Everything will never have been"

.............................................................................



And those first two are also non-canon Paradise X. And Mar-Vell wasn't talking about the 616 reality. He was talking about the reality that Excalibur was forged in- the reason it had power over Jude, The Entropic man was because it derived from this earlier, core reality. The three part story ends with the newly enlightened Mar-Vell leaving to go find that core reality. Are you saying that at the end, Mar-Vell is leaving what X-51 calls "the Marvel Universe" in order to go to 616, where Excalibur was forged? Because that's not the way it reads to me.

And the last two are also non-canon, seeing as how that's Gaiman's Marvel: 1602. Just look at Doc Strange's outfit. The 1602 is a divergent timeline of the 616 world that exists in a pocket universe... that's kind of the whole point.

Those don't actually prove anything.

Actually the X Trilogy is 100% Canon!

============================================

Marvel Handbook Bio: (2005) - solidifying it's canonicity.

============================================

From the first run Earth-X:

(excerpt from the official Marvel Handbook - Earh-X bio)
http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/8463/23335522xv4.th.jpg

"Earth-9997" (an alternate Universe in the Prime Multiverse)

..........................................................................................................

All the way to the third installment, Paradise-X: (same Universe - Earth-9997)

(excerpt from the official Marvel Handbook - Earh-X bio)
http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/5650/paradiseai2.th.jpg

"King Britain was able to Slay Mephisto with Excalibur"

"Mar-Vell explained to Reed that he was to become the new Eternity"

============================================


On Panel verification:


Mephisto slain: (Paradise X)

http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/301/mdielf8.th.jpg

..........................................................................................................


Reed becomes the new Eternity: (Paradise X)

http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/2771/reedetbi4.th.jpg

http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/5732/reedet2tb5.th.jpg

http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/7672/reedet3qi5.th.jpg

http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/4913/reedet4fc6.th.jpg

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/2721/reedet5wf2.th.jpg


Everything that took place from Earth-X to Paradise-X is 100%Canon.

Artistically depicted On Panel ... confirmed in Marvel Handbooks, making it Canon.

This isn't some chessy "What -If" ...
they're actually NEVER referenced in any Handbook.

Originally posted by tjcoady

And those first two are also non-canon Paradise X.
Addressed above with Proof.

Earth-X ... Universe-X and Paradise-X are all 100% Canon!

Originally posted by tjcoady

And Mar-Vell wasn't talking about the 616 reality.
He was talking about the reality that Excalibur was forged in-
the reason it had power over Jude, The Entropic man
was because it derived from this earlier, core reality.
Marvel was talking about the 616 Reality without a doubt.

Everyone knows the 616 Reality was the first and only Universe of current creation,
it blossomed into a Multiverse, it further expanded into multiple MultiverseS,
now it's an infinite # of MultiverseS.
But it all flows from 616, the Prime Reality, the Core Reality, foundation of the Omniverse.

I proved this already with the Defenders' scans/1602/Proctor arc/X-Trilogy
amongst others, I could post 10, 20 scans of more examples,
but if what I posted already isn't enough, I'd be wasting my time posting more.


Btw. Excalibur was forged in the "Fires of Creation"

http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/1701/swordoe2.th.jpg

"Forged in the Fires of Creation"

..........................................................................................................

And coincidentally,

the "Fires of Creation" is exactly what initiated the birth of the 616 Reality:

Here is the Alien Entity & Reed at the Pre-Big Bang point of the 616 Reality,
from this absolute void, (Pre-Big Bang of everything in Marvel)
they create the Marvel Universe, (all it's History)
and 616 is it's starting point:

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/2406/fire1tu4.th.jpg

"Our desire to understand was the Spark that Lit the Fire of Creation?"

..........................................................................................................

Indeed:

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/7788/fire2uf8.th.jpg

"Let the Universe itself .. become"

..........................................................................................................

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/9865/fire3ul7.th.jpg

"In the Void that was there before the Big Bang, before everything that is, was ...
in that Pre-Creation hesitation, the Entity asked a question ...
now that question ... has sparked the Engines (fire) of Creation,

I am here, outside Space & Time, at the moment of the Birth of ALL THAT IS!"

..........................................................................................................


At this point,

the Alien Entity merged with the Fires of Creation, and became it's embodiment:

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/299/fire4wo8.th.jpg

"Let me open your mind ... open you mind ... to Me ... to the Fires of Creation"

..........................................................................................................

Indeed, the Marvel Universe is re-created at a Million Years per second:

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/9827/fire5lr8.th.jpg

Originally posted by tjcoady

The three part story ends with the newly enlightened Mar-Vell leaving to go find that core reality. Are you saying that at the end, Mar-Vell is leaving what X-51 calls "the Marvel Universe" in order to go to 616,
where Excalibur was forged? Because that's not the way it reads to me.
The Core/Prime Reality from which everything flows is 616. (no arguing that)

Marvel was never leaving the Marvel Universe

http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/7190/6162zn6.th.jpg

"Mar-Vell is now at the core,
the FIRST World from which even this Reality is derived"

..........................................................................................................

When X-51 says,

"I wonder what they, whoever lives in that core,
will think of the World (Reality-9997) he (Mar-Vell) comes from,
what they will think of this, the Marvel Universe"


X-51 is referring to what the inhabitants of the First World (616)
will think about the rest of creation, as in the Marvel Universe,
when Mar-Vell informs them of their (Earth-9997) existence.


The First World from which all Alternate/Divergent Realities spawn is 616:

(exceprt from rthe official Marvel Handbook LT bio - 2006)
http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/7932/omniis1cz2.th.jpg



On Panel verification:

http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/3127/616copiesjh6.th.jpg

Indeed, all Alternate/Divergent realities derive from 616.

Earth-9997 (X-Trilogy) is just another alternate copy of 616.

Originally posted by tjcoady

And the last two are also non-canon,
seeing as how that's Gaiman's Marvel: 1602.
Just look at Doc Strange's outfit.
Not true friend.

1602 is 100% Canon!

(excerpt from the official Marvel Handbook - 1602 - bio)
http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/5030/616xo8.th.jpg

"Earth-311" (a divergent Universe in the Prime Multiverse)

..........................................................................................................

"Gaiman's Marvel?"

That's inconsequential as many other arcs withIN Marvel make the same claims:

ie. (Avengers #375) - 100% Canon!

http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/5074/616if9.th.jpg

"Or THIS, the Prime Reality (616) will fall and with it ... ALL EXISTENCE"

Originally posted by tjcoady

The 1602 is a divergent timeline of the 616 world that exists in a pocket universe... that's kind of the whole point.
Now it is a standalone Universe (311)
but originally,
Steve's presence withIN 616's Past, literally caused ripples across Time,
because the rift he came through would not close with him inside the year 1587,
this nearly collapsed all the UniverseS in Marvel,
because 616 was being directly affected by the ripples. (or Temporal rift)

http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/9738/163ki8.th.jpg

"Re-entering the Rift was the only way to set things right ...
Fury ko'd Rojhas (Steve) then carried him through the anomaly (Temporal Rift)
this RESET Earth-616's Timeline back to normal"


The Universe that was left behind was obviously altered
and spared by the Watchers.

..........................................................................................................

Anywho,

More ... On Panel verification: (after Steve leaves)

http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/2838/161dn9.th.jpg

"Time heals, and is healed, all will come into existence in its proper Time,
one small possibility has ended,
that EVERYTHING ELSE may exist"

..........................................................................................................

The High Tribunal Watcher also confirms the danger that passed:

http://img399.imageshack.us/img399/2878/162gu4.th.jpg

"All is now well, the UniverseS continue"

I understand what you're saying here; however, when Fury and Rogers (Rojahz) went through the rift, didn't that retroactively remove the events of 1602 from 616 continuity? By returning through that rift, it rendered the 1602 events no longer part of the 616 canon, because from that point on, none of the 1602 events had happened in the 616 universe. Personally, I'd say that if the mini stopped at issue three, it would have been canon, but the events of the last issue invalidate the previous three from happening within the 616 reality.

That's how I see it, but it's not really a big issue. I'm perfectly willing to believe that the 616 reality is the 'core' Marvel universe from which the other ones originate, the same way New Earth in DC is the 'core' reality which the other worlds of the multiverse are dependent upon. I just disagree that 1602 can be used to prove that.

Originally posted by tjcoady

I understand what you're saying here; however, when Fury and Rogers (Rojahz) went through the rift, didn't that retroactively remove the events of 1602 from 616 continuity? By returning through that rift, it rendered the 1602 events no longer part of the 616 canon, because from that point on, none of the 1602 events had happened in the 616 universe.
True, but what happened after Steve left is inconsequential,
cause when Uatu made his statement about the 616 Reality,
616 was being affected by the Temporal Rift.

So at that point, it was canon to 616,
I mean Uatu literally said ... 616:

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/7572/96351941pf7.th.jpg

"This Universe ... we call it 616"

Originally posted by tjcoady

Personally, I'd say that if the mini stopped at issue three, it would have been canon, but the events of the last issue invalidate the previous three from happening within the 616 reality.
Actually the arc was 8 issues,
with 2 mini side tie-ins.

And again, I agree the reality was altered into something else,
but the revelancy of Uatu's words,
pertain to what I was stating concerning 616's significance to Marvel.

It also corroborates with the other examples I used from other arcs,
including the mainstream titles presented as further evidence.

Originally posted by tjcoady

That's how I see it, but it's not really a big issue. I'm perfectly willing to believe that the 616 reality is the 'core' Marvel universe from which the other ones originate, the same way New Earth in DC is the 'core' reality which the other worlds of the multiverse are dependent upon.


DC has the same logic concerning their prime Multiverse.

Originally posted by tjcoady

I just disagree that 1602 can be used to prove that.
I used several sources though friend, including mainstream titles,
but the issue in question also applies for said reasons above.

Perfectly legitimate according to your arguments- and yes, you're right, I did forget the number of issues in the 1602 series.

However, the way I perceive 1602 to have gone down is this way:

Steve Rogers (Rojahz) leaves an alternate future, apparently off the 616 timeline: the fact that it's an alternate future is obviously apparent from the memories Captain America shows of it; even if you interpret it as Millar's Civil War, it still doesn't work: the memories Cap on panel display do not correspond to the canon 616 timeline.

Steve Rogers arrives in the Marvel: 1602 reality, is befriended by a child of the Ronoak settlement (as a sidenote, who is she based on? The best I could guess was that one Alpha Flight character. She could have been just a character Gaimain created for the series, but everyone else has either a Marvel Character analogue or a real life historical counterpart).
His transport through time changes the Marvel Universe history; before his time-travel, the Marvel Universe had not had predecessors such as Stephen Strange replacing John Dee, Nick Fury replacing Francis Walshingham. As Uata explains (and Dr. Strange guesses), history has moved to quickly and the heroes have arrived to save it.

Uata explains to Strange after his death "We conclued that the destruction of this universe, while still bounded by
the speed of light, would occur withan an expanding simultaneity, which would,
paratemporally, have begun immediately following the initial nanoseconds of this
universe...."

And then he explains that if one universe dies like this, all others would as well. He says above that the death of a universe is no big deal. However, the point he stresses is that if a universe dies in this particular way, then it would wipe out the rest. The way it makes sense to read it, is that it is the particular way this universe is dying rather than the particular universe which is dying that means that the Watchers must interfere with their oath and intervene.

Etc, etc,

Eventually, Rogers returns to his own time with Fury in tow. The "1602" universe is presented to Uata as a gift for him to observe.

My problem with your argument here is two fold: One, is your insinuation that because it is the 616 universe in question, when Uata explains that all other universes will be destroyed, that means that all universes expand outward from the 616 universe (I will return to this idea, though). Uata, and the rest of text, gives no evidence that the collapse of the multiverse is dependent on the collapse of the 616 universe.

And two: even if the above point was proved, it wouldn't matter: once Steve Rogers closed the singularity by returning to his own time, then all of the events of the 1602 universe seized to have happened . At the end, everything, including all of Uata's actions no longer existed within the 616 universe. So even if he had said something along the lines of "everything is dependent on 616," that statement would no longer exist within the 616 continuity. By the end of the series, everything that had happened now existed inside the pocket universe, not the main time stream.

But, really, Mr. Master, even though I've never gotten into a debate with you, and did enjoy this quick one, this is fairly off topic from the thread. Although I would very much enjoy continuing to debate the canonicity of both Marvel: 1602, as well as Paradise X, I don't believe this is the correct place.

Albeit, in the overall point, I do agree with you: the rest of the Marvel Multiverse is maintained and is existent through 616, although 1602 and Paradise X's evidence does not convince me of that. So whatever point you were originally making about a 616 artifact, I give me agreement to.

srsly @ what this thread turned into.



and on a sidenote,
The SoD = an extremely powerful weapon // but it's lack of versatility makes it an extremely poor weapon, battle-wise.

Originally posted by Galan007
srsly @ what this thread turned into.

You got me..i was happily lurking around the thread for a while and now?

Are we trying to let 616 characters use feats from alternate realities? i thought it was known that these things are canon unto themselves...so are we trying to get feats from reality1602 and use them for reality 616?

Serpent Crown? where to put it?

Other Items:

-The Ultimate Weapon
-Godslayer
- Stormbreaker- although Mljolnir is already up there
- Waters of Life
- Motherbox
- Lasso of Truth
- Yellow Lantern Rings
- Astro Force Harness
- Gauntlets of Ares

Originally posted by tjcoady

However, the way I perceive 1602 to have gone down is this way:

Steve Rogers (Rojahz) leaves an alternate future, apparently off the 616 timeline: the fact that it's an alternate future is obviously apparent from the memories Captain America shows of it; even if you interpret it as Millar's Civil War, it still doesn't work: the memories Cap on panel display do not correspond to the canon 616 timeline.

Steve Rogers arrives in the Marvel: 1602 reality, is befriended by a child of the Ronoak settlement (as a sidenote, who is she based on? The best I could guess was that one Alpha Flight character. She could have been just a character Gaimain created for the series, but everyone else has either a Marvel Character analogue or a real life historical counterpart).
His transport through time changes the Marvel Universe history; before his time-travel, the Marvel Universe had not had predecessors such as Stephen Strange replacing John Dee, Nick Fury replacing Francis Walshingham. As Uata explains (and Dr. Strange guesses), history has moved to quickly and the heroes have arrived to save it.

Uata explains to Strange after his death "We conclued that the destruction of this universe, while still bounded by
the speed of light, would occur withan an expanding simultaneity, which would,
paratemporally, have begun immediately following the initial nanoseconds of this
universe...."

And then he explains that if one universe dies like this, all others would as well. He says above that the death of a universe is no big deal. However, the point he stresses is that if a universe dies in this particular way, then it would wipe out the rest. The way it makes sense to read it,

is that it is the particular way this universe is dying,

rather than the particular universe which is dying

that means that the Watchers must interfere with their oath and intervene.
Your re-cap of the story is on point with the exception of what's in bold.

You also left out,
what's clearly written on panel after,
"nanoseconds of This universe" ... (that is ... 616)


*note* (I won't post the scan again, I know you saw it if you quoted it)

Originally posted by tjcoady

Eventually, Rogers returns to his own time with Fury in tow.
The "1602" universe is presented to Uata as a gift for him to observe.
It became Earth-311 after the year 1587 was eradicated by Steve's departure.

It was the Watchers themselves that re-created that point in time,
then it became an alternate reality standalone universe.


This is the thing, Time-Travel (concerning 616's Timeline) is extremely dangerous,
one can easily set all of Marvel on a collapse by doing so,
cause damaging the 616 Timeline, means damaging the core Reality of Marvel.
And like simple physics, take out the base, and everything falls.

Originally posted by tjcoady

My problem with your argument here is two fold:
One, is your insinuation that because it is the 616 universe in question,
when Uata explains that all other universes will be destroyed,
that means that all universes expand outward from the 616 universe
(I will return to this idea, though).
Uata, and the rest of text,
gives no evidence that the collapse of the multiverse
is dependent on the collapse of the 616 universe.
As you wish.

I guess it's a coincidence that other arcs claim the same thing about 616,
like the scan I posted from Avengers #375, (which You saw) amongst others.

If you want me to post 10 more scans from different mainstream titles, it's no problem.

Originally posted by tjcoady

And two: even if the above point was proved, it wouldn't matter: once Steve Rogers closed the singularity by returning to his own time, then all of the events of the 1602 universe seized to have happened. At the end, everything, including all of Uata's actions no longer existed within the 616 universe. So even if he had said something along the lines of "everything is dependent on 616," that statement would no longer exist within the 616 continuity. By the end of the series, everything that had happened now existed inside the pocket universe, not the main time stream.
I strongly disagree.

The events of the now Earth-311, in fact, did happen,
otherwise,
there wouldn't be an entry for 311 in the official Marvel Handbook of 2005.

Did it happen withIN 616 now?

That's inconsequential and never was my point,
my point in bringing up that arc (Uatu's words)
from the very beginning,
was to strengthen the OTHER scans I posted concerning 616's significance to Marvel.

I matters not whether it happened in 616, 311 or whatever,
what does matter, is what Uatu states about the 616 Universe. (only relevance)
(confirmed as canon in the official Marvel Handbook, as I presented in the previous page)

Just cause a story takes a place in another Universe (not 616)
doesn't mean direct canon statements can't be made about 616.

Originally posted by tjcoady

But, really, Mr. Master, even though I've never gotten into a debate with you, and did enjoy this quick one, this is fairly off topic from the thread. Although I would very much enjoy continuing to debate the canonicity of both Marvel: 1602, as well as Paradise X, I don't believe this is the correct place.
I was never trying to prove their canonicity,
as that was already proven conclusively in the previous page.

The 616 Reality is reference in both arcs ... also ...

1602 (311) has a full entry in the official Marvel Handbook 2005:

Canon!

Earth-X-Universe-Paradise (9997) has a full entry in the official Marvel Handbook 2005:

Canon!



What ifs?

Have no entry in Marvel Handbooks, an argument can be made there.

Originally posted by tjcoady

Albeit, in the overall point, I do agree with you:
the rest of the Marvel Multiverse is maintained and is existent through 616

So whatever point you were originally making about a 616 artifact,

I give me agreement to.
That was my only point.

That's why I presented several sources of info, not just 1602 or X.

I never use a single source,
and I would never just canon alternate realities either to prove a point.

Which is why I posted several examples from mainstream titles too.

Originally posted by starlock

You got me..i was happily lurking around the thread for a while and now?
Everything I posted is relevant to my discussion with those fellow members.

I enjoy giving the onlookers on panel examples to corroborate my claims,
some are thankful for the info they absorb,
others get offended by my thoroughness,
it's the way of the world. (can't please eveyone)

Originally posted by starlock

Are we trying to let 616 characters use feats from alternate realities?
Only feat used outside 616 was the Excalibur feat in the X-Trilogy,
this arc though involved the rest of the Marvel Universe,
including the real Merlin & Roma (who have no counters) amongst others.

Btw. The feat was performed by 616 Excalibur. (no counter)


Also, the re-creation of that alternate Universe in (the Sword is Drawn arc)
was performed by Brian (Captain Britain) 616 with 616 Excalibur.

Originally posted by starlock

i thought it was known that these things are canon unto themselves...
Cross company cross-overs? (like DC/Marvel garbage)

Heck yea, they are definitely canon unto themselves.

Stories taking place withIN the Marvel Universe,
confirmed in Marvel Handbooks, are 100% Canon.

Now What if's are a different story,
and even they are technically canon,
although they are never referenced outside of said What if, or bios.
So an argument can be made there.

Originally posted by starlock

so are we trying to get feats from reality1602 and use them for reality 616?
hum ... I NEVER used any feat from 1602 to support a 616 character.

I was only using 616 Uatu's statements about the significance of 616 to Marvel.

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/7572/96351941pf7.th.jpg

"This Universe ... we call it 616"

..........................................................................................................

(excerpt from the official Marvel Handbook - 2005 - 1602 bio)
http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/9738/163ki8.th.jpg

"Re-entering the Rift was the only way to set things right ...
Fury ko'd Rojhas (Steve) then carried him through the anomaly (Temporal Rift)
this RESET Earth-616's Timeline back to normal"

..........................................................................................................

Originally posted by tjcoady

I do agree with you:
the rest of the Marvel Multiverse is maintained and is existent through 616,
although 1602 and Paradise X's evidence does not convince me of that.

(Avengers #375) - 100% Canon! to 616, withIN 616, then and now!


Proctor arrives on 616 after traversing many alternate Earths, killing Sersi alternates,
he destroys every alternate Earth he visited as well,
now he wants to destroy 616:

http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/1221/pr1ss0.th.jpg

"They come, as they have in every Timeline I have traveled,
so they come to THIS, the PRIME REALITY"

=============================================


Let's make sure this "Prime Reality" is the 616 Universe.
(needless to prove, but let's anyway)

=============================================

Proctor (alternate Black Knight)
is a counter-part of 616's Black Knight (the Template)


"Dane (616 BK) you're Proctor's Template"

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/671/pr2nz6.th.jpg


We know Template in this context obviously means:

"something that serves as a Model for Others to Copy"

=============================================

Proctor continues to explain why his existence diverged from the Template BK:

http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/8277/pr3vv6.th.jpg


Because, as we know, Everything diverges from 616.

..........................................................................................................

More proof that BK in THIS Reality is the Template (616) of Proctor (alternate BK)

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/631/pr5kw7.th.jpg

"You have to absorb your Template's life energy to stay sane in THIS Reality,
I'm still here ... which means .. you are insane"

..........................................................................................................

More proof:

http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/2182/pr6rp7.th.jpg

"All I (Proctor) am is an echo of what You (template BK) might've been"

=============================================

Sersi (along with everyone else from THIS Reality)
are also the Templates of their counters too,
because they are all part of THIS Reality - 616:

http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/2171/pr7pn5.th.jpg

Sersi: "Across the Multiverse, you sought me"

Proctor: "You were the Template woman"

=============================================
=============================================

Ok, so we know "THIS, the PRIME REALITY" ... is indeed 616.

Now, what was stated about 616 in this 100% Canon story,
taking place withIN 616, in Avengers #375?

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/3170/pr4ye9.th.jpg

"Or THIS, the PRIME REALITY will fall and with it, ALL Existence"



... I have more examples, (don't think they're needed)
but like you said, this isn't the place.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Everything I posted is relevant to my discussion with those fellow members.

I enjoy giving the onlookers on panel examples to corroborate my claims,
some are thankful for the info they absorb,
others get offended by my thoroughness,
it's the way of the world. (can't please eveyone)


Only feat used outside 616 was the Excalibur feat in the X-Trilogy,
this arc though involved the rest of the Marvel Universe,
including the real Merlin & Roma (who have no counters) amongst others.

Btw. The feat was performed by 616 Excalibur. (no counter)


Also, the re-creation of that alternate Universe in (the Sword is Drawn arc)
was performed by Brian (Captain Britain) 616 with 616 Excalibur.


Cross company cross-overs? (like DC/Marvel garbage)

Heck yea, they are definitely canon unto themselves.

Stories taking place withIN the Marvel Universe,
confirmed in Marvel Handbooks, are 100% Canon.

Now What if's are a different story,
and even they are technically canon,
although they are never referenced outside of said What if, or bios.
So an argument can be made there.


hum ... I NEVER used any feat from 1602 to support a 616 character.

I was only using 616 Uatu's statements about the significance of 616 to Marvel.

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/7572/96351941pf7.th.jpg

"This Universe ... we call it 616"

..........................................................................................................

(excerpt from the official Marvel Handbook - 2005 - 1602 bio)
http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/9738/163ki8.th.jpg

"Re-entering the Rift was the only way to set things right ...
Fury ko'd Rojhas (Steve) then carried him through the anomaly (Temporal Rift)
this RESET Earth-616's Timeline back to normal"

..........................................................................................................

I just used 1602 as an example....i was just interested to know if posters are going to start using alternate realities feats(other than 616) for characters in the prime 616 reality

Originally posted by starlock

I just used 1602 as an example....
Cool, but I wanted to make it clear,
absolutely NO feat from 1602 was ever used by me.

Originally posted by starlock

i was just interested to know if posters are going to start using alternate realities feats(other than 616) for characters in the prime 616 reality
If they're not originally from 616,
I'd be the first to complain about something like that.

Now if 616 characters perform feats withIN alternate realities,
(like my Brian/Excalibur scans)
then that's permissable, cause it directly involves the real 616 Template character.

But again, I agree with you on the other side of that coin,
alternate characters (counter-parts of 616) should never be used,
to support 616 characters' abilities, and vice-versa.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Nice, so on panel, it performed a Universal feat ... same as Excalibur.

Both are stated to control all of Creation.

Similarities?

3 different sources (including Roma)
stated Excalibur/Amulet can,
remake the Cosmos/sunder the Omniverse/protect the Omniverse.

dontgetit

That's not true.

Thanos didn't have to destroy in order to re-create,
thanos had to erase in order to heal.

Thanos had already remade the Universe prior in the End:
when he nulled Akhenaten's Reality tamperings,
he also warped the 4321 Reality to distort Akhenaten's Timeline.

The "flaw" though, was still there,
cause it's only remedy (even for god) was absorption/complete re-creation.

Not true.
1. Thanos gave up the power willingly,
as he always have while possessing infinite power.
2. That was the manner in which it was to be fixed, so in fact, Thanos did Fix the flaw.
Thanos absorbed the LT, aside from All of Space/Time in Marvel, I mean, come on.

As I said, I won't comment on something I haven't read about. I'll probably finish reading the series where Excalibur is involved by the end of the week and continue this then. What I do know is that the Worlogog allows the wielder to have complete control over creation from the Big Bang to the Omega Point.

As for the HoTU I wasn't even talking about the flaw in the Universe, I was talking strictly about the fact that Thanos needed to give up his power in order to recreate everything. Thus, what Thanos w/HOTU's power posesses is the power to create everything he had destroyed.

Him not being able to fix the flaw without recreating the Universe proves limitations, which somebody who is Omnipotent shouldn't have.

Originally posted by Mr Master
1. That's my point.

2. I'll use your analogy (with a twist)

It's like,
"hey, I don't like what the writer is stating so I'll just spin (dismiss) his words. "
............................................................................

"a metaphor for how he is the cosmic judge?" ermmno

http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/2936/ltrulescl3.th.jpg

The Tribunal is serene in His Omnipotence (hmm, yet THOTI isn't?)

"the Pulse of Creation reverberates through him, (LT) for he (LT) is its Heart,
ALPHA & OMEGA revolve on the Wheel of Destiny,
a Destiny SPUN by HIS (LT) mighty Hand"

.............................................................................

There, without any spinning of the words, the Writer clearly/definitively states,
that the LT controls/holds the Beginning and End in one hand.

1. I said that until I found out it was 100% canon,
and recognized as legit feat by Marvel:

(excerpt from the 2006 Handbook LT - bio)
http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/6676/scathanvt3.th.jpg

"The LT was nearly usurped by Protege,
who manifested the LT's own power,
Scathan the Celestial saved Reality by judging Protege"

2. That's always been just my speculation (with reason) but it's no fact,
this is a Fact: Scathan = LT ... how? ... that's the mystery.

No, it's more of a 'I don't like the fact that you twist statements and events to look more awsome than they seem'. Like I said, since Living Tribunal is the cosmic judge, it's not that hard to figure out what the author meant.

I know the Scathan incidend is canon, but it doesn't change the fact that what was presented was pretty illogic and stupid, on which we both agree.

And where did you get that 'Scathan=Lt" ? The way I saw it, Scathan was potrayed more powerfull which is illogical since LT is stated to be second only to TOAA. The Alien Entity discussing, like I said, I'm not interested in pursuing since it will get to circular arguments.

And it's about obvious by now that when somebody makes statements like "It's the end of everything", "All Existence is threatened" etc. he reffers to the main Marvel Multiverse.

It is illogical to think that collapsing the main 616 Universe would colapse anything beyond the Multiverse, which is pretty much the only thing connected to it, aswell as taking hyperboles as literal (the 'Everything is going to get destroyed !!!" type of statements).

Originally posted by Mr Master
Again, that's my point, they are beneath the LT, (as are the others I mentioned)
and they can all control creation.

The LT himself is also beneath the HOTI, and the LT controls all of Creation.

So again,
my point was and still is,
just cause a being or thing can control creation,
doesn't make them the Supreme Being (HOTI)

I already told you about him,
he can control ALL of Creation.

He literally made even Oblivion 616 tremble,
when he threatened to revert the entire Marvel Universe back to it's Cosmic Egg.

Only Wanda did warp the entire 616 Reality,
tore the Omniverse to pieces,
then put the Omniverse back together again, with a phrase.

While the Worlogog's potential is theoretical technically speaking.

Ha, you have a universal feat and several statements for the Worlogog,
the IG (heck Incomplete IG) has performed Multiversal feats,
4 Gems performed Multi-Universal feats, and nearly collapsed the Omniverse)

Not just talk, oh, but there is talk,
the IG makes one "God/Omnipotent" on panel, (different sources)
confirmed by Starling in his Marvel Age interview,
makes one Omnipotent according to the IG bio at Marvel.com

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Infinity_Gauntlet_%28item%29

Powers: "Absolute Omnipotence when the Gems are used altogether"

Cool,
but you're not going to discover anything more interesting than what I posted,
good story though.

1. Actually it can erase any Universe in the Omniverse,

2. The CN nullifies a tiny crystal that contains the life-force of a Universe,
the Celestial Guardian possess every crystal,
that pertains to every Universe in the Omniverse.

You mean based on your opinion that the Warlogog is = to the HOTI?
I haven't seen a single shred of evidence that even alludes to that notion.

Just because it's theoreticall doesn't mean that the Worlogog is less powerfull. The fact that it's an artifact that grants you total control from start to end is stated numerous times and never contradicted.

About the Celestial Nullifier, how does being able to erase any Universe in the Omniverse make it Omniversal ?

Not one of them have full control over creation like the Worlogog has and I'll post my view on each one of them except Sis-Neg and Excalibur which I haven't read about yet.

Entropy

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_EternityDestroyed.jpg

"Entropy is the Son of Eternity, the Cosmic being whose essence encompasses the entirety of the Multiverse
hoping then to enlist him in a quest to destroy his father, Eternity, and end All Creation "

As obviously seen, Eternity is stated to encompass the Multiverse and the Multiverse is reffered as all of creation.

It is also stated that Entropy wanted Captain Marvel's help in defeating his father, obviously suggesting that he is not powerfull enough to do it on his own.

Further confirmation ?

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_NeedHelp.jpg

"The Universe will end eventually. But I tire of enventually. I'd put it and myself out of our misery now.I could, however, use your help.

"Eternity didn't want to keep going. Couldn't you tell that ? If he had, do you think Entropy and I could have bound him so easily ? Or at all ?. His final thought was .. 'at last'"

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_EternityGiveup2.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_EternityGiveup1.jpg

Edifice Rex

Where should I start ? This was probably one of the most idiotic and childish stories I've ever read. From ..

Galactus, literally holding a planet in his hand and eating it ..

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_GalactusEating.jpg

Then clealing his teeth using his fingers ..

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_GalactusCleaning.jpg

To Edifice Rex making Infinity's nails look nicer and her actually saying 'Wow! The look great!' ...

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_InfinityNails1.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_InfinityNails2.jpg

Eternity acting like a complete idiot ..

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_EternityIdiot.jpg

And their reaction on Edifice Rex saying that he will reduce the Universe back to a cosmic egg ..

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_ReactionCosmics.jpg

And before you bring in Mxy, there is a difference. In story he is present, characters aren't acting differently like, very obviously, they do in this story.

Ignoring the fact that you even bring such a comic into discussion (Hey, while you're at it, post some pages of She-Hulk ripping comic pages), there's still the fact that none of this is even close to Omniversal and it's pretty obvious, for those who've read it, that at most it reffers to the Multiverse.

Do I also need to mention that Edifice Rex himself stated that has has near limitless cosmic powers, and not unlimited ?

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_Near-Infinite.jpg

Yeah ..

Mad Jim Jaspers ? He can't instantly control/destroy the Omniverse. The same goes for Wanda since their 'wave' or 'warp' need to extend in order to do so.


Here's how it is. I'll debate against you in any of the following : Infinity Gauntlet,Entropy,Alien Entity, Edifice Rex but this time with judges. It will be similar to a battlezone match only in this case, we won't have a character A vs character B but try to prove that our points of view are the correct ones. You'll debate that they have Omniversal power while I will try to prove the opposite.

I want to do this because I find discussions such as this relativly useless, with neither side ever admitting they are wrong and it eventually and inevitably gets to the point where we will be running in circles.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr

As I said, I won't comment on something I haven't read about. I'll probably finish reading the series where Excalibur is involved by the end of the week and continue this then.
I won't be around next week unfortunately.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr

What I do know is that the Worlogog allows the wielder to have complete control over creation from the Big Bang to the Omega Point.
So "Everything is going to be destroyed"
(according to you) is hyperbole although it's happened 4 times On Panel,
but this should be cemented as fact although it's never happened on panel.

Got it.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr

As for the HoTU I wasn't even talking about the flaw in the Universe, I was talking strictly about the fact that Thanos needed to give up his power in order to recreate everything. Thus, what Thanos w/HOTU's power posesses is the power to create everything he had destroyed.

Him not being able to fix the flaw without recreating the Universe proves limitations, which somebody who is Omnipotent shouldn't have.
As you wish.

But Thanos becoming "GOD" ... the "Almighty ... Omnipotent Supreme being,
has been proven across many threads:

(Here's a few for the onlookers, no need to re-hash, it's all been said)

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=463345&pagenumber=11

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=454235&pagenumber=2

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=460217&pagenumber=3


I think Galan said it best concerning THOTI:

Originally posted by Galan007

The way I see it ...

The "old man" was a comic character,

and as such was God within the world of comics.

When Thanos usurped THOTI, he too became God within comics.


So imo,

Thanos = "the little old man"..

If you disagree Erik, that's fine.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr

No, it's more of a '
I don't like the fact that you twist statements
and events to look more awsome than they seem'.
Are you speaking about yourself,
concerning the Nabu > Multiversal Eternity comedy?

Or the Ultraverse fiasco?

Or are you referring to the intransigence involving the Levels of Infinity in Marvel?


Which Galan has brought to light now exists withIN DC as well.
(levels of infinity ... oh yea)

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr

Like I said, since Living Tribunal is the cosmic judge,
it's not that hard to figure out what the author meant.
Like you said?

You mean like you said,
the author meant something other than there are LEVELS of INFINITY here?


http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/6475/kkht2.th.jpg

Kosmos replies,

"But Kubik, do we not possess Infinite Power (Omnipotence)

Kubik retorts,

"Yes, Our might is Infinite. But there are Levels of Infinity"

...............................................................................................

http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/8929/infipo9.th.jpg

http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/958/infi2lt7.th.jpg

http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/1130/infi3rl5.th.jpg

Kubik finishes,

"Thus are demonstrated TWO LEVELS of INFINITY,

there are of course, an INFINITE number MORE"

==============================================

dontgetit


This the Second time you jump off-topic, first with irritable sarcasm here:
Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr

It's like "hey, I don't like how powerfull they say it is so show me some feats".
And secondly with a direct fallacious accusation here:
Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr

B]you twist statements

and events to look more awsome than they seem'.
Next time I pull out your cards,
I already told you before, don't start some shit
and then go off complain when I strike.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr

I know the Scathan incidend is canon,
but it doesn't change the fact that was presented
was pretty illogic and stupid, on which we both agree.
True, but it's Canon nonetheless, so .. it's accepted.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr

And where did you get that 'Scathan=Lt" ? The way I saw it, Scathan was potrayed more powerfull which is illogical since LT is stated to be second only to TOAA.
Scathan never proved to be above the LT,
Scathan never battled the LT,
in fact, in the end, the LT actually told Scathan what to do.

Protege never did anything to the LT as well.

But Scathan did prove to be above an inexperienced wielder of the LT's power.

Protege had the LT's power for a very short time, (didn't adapt sufficiently)
imo, this is why he got stomped.
Or there is the possibility that Scathan was an agent of Toaa ... that's inconclusive though.

This is why I put Scathan & LT as equals, cause there isn't conclusive evidence yet.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr

The Alien Entity discussing, like I said,
I'm not interested in pursuing since it will get to circular arguments.
Nothing to discuss.

Alien Entity from the Pre-Big Bang point of Marvel re-created the entire Marvel Reality.

Simple, effective.

Or is it, that the term "Big Bang" is only relevant concerning your Worlogog?

Yea, your scan claims it controls everything form the Big Bang to now,
my scans literally/artistically depicts the Alien Entity from the Pre-Big Bang point,
before EVERYTHING that is was, (as stated on panel) re-creating the Marvel Universe.

But yea, there's actually room for speculation there unlike the Warlogog case.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr

And it's about obvious by now that when somebody makes statements like "It's the end of everything", "All Existence is threatened" etc. he reffers to the maine Marvel Multiverse.
But in DC it refers to everything, not just their prime Multiverse.

Got it.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr

It is illogical to think that collapsing the main 616 Universe would colapse anything beyond the Multiverse, which is pretty much the only thing connected to it,
Email Marvel about it if you disagree.

I presented On Panel proof, that is the case.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr

aswell as taking hyperboles as literal
(the 'Everything is going to get destroyed !!!" type of statements).
Even though it happened FOUR times On Panel.

Sis-Neg in 72'
Entropy/Genis in 02'
Thanos/HOTI in 03'
Alien Entity in 06'

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr

Just because it's theoreticall doesn't mean that the Worlogog is less powerfull.
The fact that it's an artifact that grants you total control from start to end is stated numerous times and never contradicted.
And of course, since it's DC it's not hyperbole right?

But 616 collapsing,
and thus destroying everything which is also stated On Panel,
is hyperbole right?

Meh, who cares if it actually happened FOUR times on panel,
it's not DC so ...

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr

About the Celestial Nullifier,
how does being able to erase any Universe in the Omniverse
make it Omniversal ?
The fact that it can erase any Universe in the Omniverse.

Again, the Celestial guardians possess every single Crustal,
that pertains to every single Universe in the Omniverse,
even 616's Crystal:

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/1056/r8fu4.th.jpg

"This Crystal embodies the LifeForce of your Home Dimension,
By breaking it, that Entire Portion of the Omniverse CEASES TO EXIST"

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr

Not one of them have full control over creation like the Worlogog has
Still waiting to see the Warlogog control all of DC on panel.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr

Entropy

"Entropy is the Son of Eternity, the Cosmic being whose essence encompasses the entirety of the Multiverse
hoping then to enlist him in a quest to destroy his father, Eternity,
and end All Creation "

As obviously seen,
Eternity is stated to encompass the Multiverse
and the Multiverse is reffered as all of creation.
Actually no where in that scan does it say the Multiverse encompasses all of creation.

Eternity's consciousness is limited to the Prime Multiverse (always known that)

The reason "all of creaion" will be ended,
is because the Prime Multiverse (which houses 616) dies, everything dies.
(Eternity is the Alpha/Omega of Marvel because everything derives from 616)

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr

It is also stated that Entropy wanted Captain Marvel's help in defeating his father,
obviously suggesting that he is not powerfull enough to do it on his own.

Further confirmation ?

"The Universe will end eventually. But I tire of enventually. I'd put it and myself out of our misery now.I could, however, use your help.

"Eternity didn't want to keep going. Couldn't you tell that ? If he had, do you think Entropy and I could have bound him so easily ? Or at all ?. His final thought was .. 'at last'"
This proves nothing, I never said Entropy was more powerful than Eternity.

Entropy did in fact, CREATE from scratch all of Marvel with his own power:
(which is = to power over Creation)

http://img367.imageshack.us/img367/6691/71900581bn2.th.jpg

http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/9453/27793431ra7.th.jpg

http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/8766/77946528pi6.th.jpg

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/8850/50572162ml9.th.jpg

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/3183/59314833pj2.th.jpg

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/9489/26456554mz5.th.jpg

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr

Edifice Rex

Where should I start ?
This was probably one of the most idiotic and childish stories I've ever read. From ..

Galactus, literally holding a planet in his hand and eating it ..

Then clealing his teeth using his fingers ..

To Edifice Rex making Infinity's nails look nicer and her actually saying 'Wow! The look great!' ...

Eternity acting like a complete idiot ..

And their reaction on Edifice Rex saying that he will reduce the Universe back to a cosmic egg ..
Making fun of the issue doesn't nullify it's canonicity.

So these complaints are meaningless.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr

And before you bring in Mxy, there is a difference.
In story he is present,
characters aren't acting differently like, very obviously, they do in this story.
Really, like this Spectre backed by his boss hm
getting stomped by having a single Planet cracked over his head?

http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/9890/sp1ji3.th.jpg

http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/6536/sp2ji4.th.jpg
"Sorry BOSS ... I Tried"


Yea, I see the difference.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr

Ignoring the fact that you even bring such a comic into discussion
(Hey, while you're at it, post some pages of She-Hulk ripping comic pages),
Nah, I rather post scans of Spectre backed by the Presence,
getting owned by being bopped in the head with a planet.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr

there's still the fact that none of this is even close to Omniversal and it's pretty obvious, for those who've read it, that at most it reffers to the Multiverse.
Right, cause there's more than one Cosmic Egg in Marvel.

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/9707/ed1bj1.th.jpg

http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/372/14xa3.th.jpg

Is Edifice hyperboling?

Not with the reaction of the Cosmic hierarchy: (no matter how silly they seem)

http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/3803/15he6.th.jpg

Look at Oblivion for crying out loud, he embodies nothingness,
and even he would suffer from no Marvel Universe.

Stories took place in 616 btw.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr

Do I also need to mention that Edifice Rex himself stated that has has near limitless cosmic powers, and not unlimited ?
Edifice is an idiot with absolute power,
we only know that he was truly capable of returning the Marvel Universe to it's Pre-Big Bang state (Cosmic Egg)
because the Cosmic Hierarchy consented with their reaction.

On the other hand,
Do I also have to mention,
that the 616 Hierarchy admitted Edifice would stomped them all collectively?

http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/1123/17sp1.th.jpg

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr

Yeah ..

Mad Jim Jaspers ? He can't instantly control/destroy the Omniverse.
When did the Warlogog control/destroy all Reality simultaneously?

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr

The same goes for Wanda
since their 'wave' or 'warp' need to extend in order to do so.
Actually, Wanda fixed the entire Omniverse in an instant with a single phrase.

The Omniverse's collapse was an expansion process though.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr

Here's how it is. I'll debate against you in any of the following
:Infinity Gauntlet,Entropy,Alien Entity, Edifice Rex but this time with judges.

It will be similar to a battlezone match only in this case, we won't have a character A vs character B but try to prove that our points of view are the correct ones. You'll debate that they have Omniversal power while I will try to prove the opposite.

I want to do this because I find discussions such as this relativly useless, with neither side ever admitting they are wrong and it eventually and inevitably gets to the point where we will be running in circles.
Unfortunately for now I haven't the time,
in a few months when I get back I'd be more than willing to debate with judges.

For now, for the record though,

Entropy is a Multiversal power,
that in-advertently influences all of Marvel's destruction/recreation,
because his conceptual purpose is to recycle the Prime Multiverse,
and when the Prime Reality is erased, everything else is erased as well.

IG makes one "God" below the LT.

Alien Entity is without a doubt an Omniversal power,
now more than ever since he merged and became the Fires/Engines of Creation.

Edifice Rex can seemingly do what the Alien Entity can do,
making him potentially equal.

...................................................................

Ok ... see yall in a few Months friends.

Its amazing how a thread about weapons goes form all their power levels to nothing but omniversal cosmic power comparisons and what is and isn't canon.

Also I have a question. Could the HOTI not just absorb the Worlogogg or the Infinity Gauntlet just unmake it?

The way I understand the Worlogog is that it is a map of the entirety of the DC multiverse, throughout time, and affecting anything on the micro-scale of the 'Gog affects everything on the macro-scale of the multiverse.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Edifice Rex

Where should I start ? This was probably one of the most idiotic and childish stories I've ever read. From ..

Galactus, literally holding a planet in his hand and eating it ..

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_GalactusEating.jpg

Then clealing his teeth using his fingers ..

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_GalactusCleaning.jpg

To Edifice Rex making Infinity's nails look nicer and her actually saying 'Wow! The look great!' ...

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_InfinityNails1.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_InfinityNails2.jpg

Eternity acting like a complete idiot ..

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_EternityIdiot.jpg

And their reaction on Edifice Rex saying that he will reduce the Universe back to a cosmic egg ..

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_ReactionCosmics.jpg

And before you bring in Mxy, there is a difference. In story he is present, characters aren't acting differently like, very obviously, they do in this story.

Ignoring the fact that you even bring such a comic into discussion (Hey, while you're at it, post some pages of She-Hulk ripping comic pages), there's still the fact that none of this is even close to Omniversal and it's pretty obvious, for those who've read it, that at most it reffers to the Multiverse.

Do I also need to mention that Edifice Rex himself stated that has has near limitless cosmic powers, and not unlimited ?

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_Near-Infinite.jpg

Yeah ..

Mad Jim Jaspers ? He can't instantly control/destroy the Omniverse. The same goes for Wanda since their 'wave' or 'warp' need to extend in order to do so.


Here's how it is. I'll debate against you in any of the following : Infinity Gauntlet,Entropy,Alien Entity, Edifice Rex but this time with judges. It will be similar to a battlezone match only in this case, we won't have a character A vs character B but try to prove that our points of view are the correct ones. You'll debate that they have Omniversal power while I will try to prove the opposite.

I want to do this because I find discussions such as this relativly useless, with neither side ever admitting they are wrong and it eventually and inevitably gets to the point where we will be running in circles.

well idiotic or no....canon is canon

Originally posted by LORD B
batman utility belt?

Clearly Imaginable Power or higher...

oh... the anti life equation is up there somewhere....

Originally posted by manjaro
oh... the anti life equation is up there somewhere.... Thought about that but then isn't that a formula? And if we add that then wouldn't we need to start with things like the Super Solider Serum, and all the different kinds. ex Green Goblins, Deathstrokes, Bane's Venom, Heart Shaped Herb, and then what about magical spells anyone can access? Because they'd be considered formulas IMO.

The Anti-Life is more of a concept than an artifact.

Although I'd Mageddon as an artifact. It is a weapon, after all.

Is the Motherbox (and that one Fatherbox) on the list yet?

Originally posted by tjcoady
The Anti-Life is more of a concept than an artifact.

Although I'd Mageddon as an artifact. It is a weapon, after all.

Is the Motherbox (and that one Fatherbox) on the list yet? No but I've got some time to kill this morning so I'm gonna be going threw the posts and try and update the list.

If I can make any sense of all the post and some clear judgements. ermm


So yea if anyone wants to try and update their version of the list to help me get an idea and add even more additions please it would be appreciated!

And yea concept is a much better word and the one I was looking for earlier but couldn't come to it for some reason. Thanks

No, I'm speaking about you twisting statements in many situations in order to make many feets seem more amazing than they are.

The Ultraverse fiasco ? You mean the instance that, in the discussion we've had you weren't able to prove it's canocity ?

The Nabu situation, I already presented my point of view.

And the levels of infinity is seems is something you won't let go, despite the fact that you've been shown to be incorrect.



So you practically admit that putting LT and Scathan as equals is pretty much just an assumption on your part. Cool.



That doesn't make it Omniversal



Why, because you just can't accept the fact that it's stated many times that it can so you try to make your way around it ?



As a matter of fact no, if Eternity dies, only the prime Multiverse dies and nothing more. A few hyperboles about "everything getting destroyed !!11" doesn't change that fact.



Where did I say that pointing out how ridiculous it is makes it less canon ?



This doesn't even compare.

Different version of Spectre in a debatabley canon comic, while the Galactus, Eternity and Infinity presented in the Edifice Rex issues are supposed to be the main ones. Do you see the main characters acting the way they did in the Edifice Rex story regulary ? Didn't think so.

As for the rest, we'll continue when you get back in a month, with judges like we agreed.

Originally posted by manjaro
well idiotic or no....canon is canon

Didn't say it isn't

The Stairs of Apokolips are up there as well for DC artifacts.
http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/6985/darkseid1.th.jpghttp://img42.imageshack.us/img42/3781/darkseid2.th.jpg

Equally, the Coffee Table is Marvel's equivalent. It's definitely up there with the Cosmic Cube and Wand of Watomb.
http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/9185/namorvsapocalypse034py.th.jpghttp://img196.imageshack.us/img196/9356/namorvsapocalypse045at.th.jpg

godhead
lucifer's wings
the book of fate
the letter to the void
the heart of infinite
the ankh of death
the basanos
the spear of destiny
superman armour
infinity gauntlett
ultimate nullifier
the green
dreams pouch/mask/gem
warlogog
cain's mark
the darkness
the angelus
the witchblade
sentry serum
cosmic cube
darkhold
the book of vishanti
the eye of agomato
the cloak of levitation
nega bands
cosmic control rod
uni mind
moonstones
asgardian destroyer
green lantern ring
gungnir
crymson bands of cyttorak
red ruby of cyttorak
mjolnir
quantum bands

Originally posted by leonheartmm

stairs of apokolips
the coffee table
godhead
lucifer's wings
the book of fate
the letter to the void
the heart of infinite
the ankh of death
the basanos
the spear of destiny
superman armour
infinity gauntlett
ultimate nullifier
the green
dreams pouch/mask/gem
warlogog
cain's mark
the darkness
the angelus
the witchblade
sentry serum
cosmic cube
darkhold
the book of vishanti
the eye of agomato
the cloak of levitation
nega bands
cosmic control rod
uni mind
moonstones
asgardian destroyer
green lantern ring
gungnir
crymson bands of cyttorak
red ruby of cyttorak
mjolnir
quantum bands

That's a pretty good list.

Here's my short list:

Cosmic Armor/HOTU
...
...
...
Miracle Machine/UN
...
...
IG/Worgollog
...
Stairs of Apokolips/NYPD Handcuffs
...
Cosmic Cube
...
Everything else

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Miracle Machine/UN
...
...
IG/Worgollog I'd put all of those items in the same tier, personally.

Originally posted by Galan007
I'd put all of those items in the same tier, personally.
Its about scale, baby.

-THOTI
-Cosmic Armor
-Infinity Gauntlet/Worlogog/Miracle Machine/Ultimate Nullifier
-The sword and amulet that cap Brittain has
-Nexus of all realities

-----

everything else