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Thor

vs

Silver Surfer

vs

Adam Warlock

vs

Quasar

vs

Superman

vs

Green Lantern(Hal)

vs

Firestorm

vs

Wonder Woman(standard gear, plus sword, and sandals)


No one's holding back AT ALL, everybody wants everyone else dead or otherwise dealt with.

Who walks away victorious?

Genis, hands down. The guy friggin had cosmic awareness to the umpteenth degree and was able to tap into unlimited power. He was unstoppable. Take Genis out of this thread and you've got an excellent debate thread going.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Genis, hands down. The guy friggin had cosmic awareness to the umpteenth degree and was able to tap into unlimited power. He was unstoppable. Take Genis out of this thread and you've got an excellent debate thread going.
I forgot what a difference no CIS would make for Genis, so I switched him out for Adam Warlock. I'll get a mod to edit the poll...

thor stomps everybody

he actually uses his powers in a fight win CIS is off *gasp*

Too many variables to consider. This isn't a 1-on-1 match. Anything could go down...

Not considering the actual outcome of the fight I would say Surfer has the most total power when not holding back.

Originally posted by Gecko4lif
thor stomps everybody

he actually uses his powers in a fight win CIS is off *gasp* Thor always uses his powers... I know what comics you haven't been reading...

Still doesn't make his reflexes higher...

thor and wonder woman run the risk of going blind if these guy start throwing energy around since CIS is out

thor and wonder woman run the risk of going blind if these guy start throwing energy around since CIS is out, especially when norrin gets riled.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
thor and wonder woman run the risk of going blind if these guy start throwing energy around since CIS is out Thor? Thor has stood in the sun, and didn't go blind... don't know how he's going to be effected... plus, he can throw around a lot of fukken energy himself... so...

But I agree, Diana. Sucks. Bats. Off.

CIS protected his eyes, he is after all only a viking, what the hell is he doing in the sun anyway?

Originally posted by psycho gundam
CIS protected his eyes, he is after all only a viking, what the hell is he doing in the sun anyway?

Being Thor

I go with Surfer. Why? See Exiles Surfer.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
CIS protected his eyes, he is after all only a viking, what the hell is he doing in the sun anyway? Character stupidity protected his eyes? So, he's so stupid, that he can't go blind by being in the sun?
Hmm...

He was tracking down Atum.

thats not what CIS means

Originally posted by psycho gundam
thats not what CIS means

You're retarded.


Seriously. There's no other way to express my reaction without lying.

thor goes warrior mad if he REALLY wants everyone dead. and wm thor DID seem to be faster.

gimme thor.

Originally posted by leonidas
thor goes warrior mad if he REALLY wants everyone dead. and wm thor DID seem to be faster.

gimme thor.

Faster sure. But on the level of people like Surfer or Supes?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
You're retarded.


Seriously. There's no other way to express my reaction without lying. whats the meaning of this?

Character Induced Stupidity

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Faster sure. But on the level of people like Surfer or Supes?

given the way he trashed ss and warlock in a 2on1 scenario . . . maybe people don't like that arc, but it is STILL viable evidence. he also doesn't feel pain and is 10x as strong.

half of them can be bfr'd.

completely depends on what feats you want to use.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
whats the meaning of this?

I believe it's an emphatic substitute for the indefinite article in the way you have used it.

CIS, however, means Character Induced Stupidity and refers to personal limitations, moral codes, and idiocy.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
You're retarded.


Seriously. There's no other way to express my reaction without lying.

subtle . . .

Originally posted by leonidas
given the way he trashed ss and warlock in a 2on1 scenario . . . maybe people don't like that arc, but it is STILL viable evidence. he also doesn't feel pain and is 10x as strong.

But on the other hand Warlock and Surfer probably weren't similarly CIS free at the time.

Originally posted by leonidas
subtle . . .

It's a thing I do.

Originally posted by leonidas
given the way he trashed ss and warlock in a 2on1 scenario . . . maybe people don't like that arc, but it is STILL viable evidence. he also doesn't feel pain and is 10x as strong.

half of them can be bfr'd.

completely depends on what feats you want to use. Ah, WM... still though, Surfer was seriously ass jobbing... or WM is multiple x's faster than Surfer...

Originally posted by leonidas
given the way he trashed ss and warlock in a 2on1 scenario . . . maybe people don't like that arc, but it is STILL viable evidence. he also doesn't feel pain and is 10x as strong.

half of them can be bfr'd.

completely depends on what feats you want to use.
Yes but you have to remember that the Blood and Thunder arc contradicts Thor's previous showings of power while in Warrior Madness. He was nowhere near that effective against Adam Warlock as Him or against Maestro, so it's really more of a high end showing than the average...

silver surfer all out wins imo

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
But on the other hand Warlock and Surfer probably weren't similarly CIS free at the time.

which is why i said depends on which feats. anytime heroes square off like that someone can cry cis . . . personally, i've always been in the corner of thor>ss, so . . .

there are also multiple cases of thor 'moving like lightning'. the high feats of his hammer could be used to match or counter whatever speed advantage someone can bring up for ss. i've debated thor v ss ad nauseum in the past so won't get into it again. just MO.

It's a thing I do.

hey, someone's gotta . . .

Originally posted by darthgoober
Yes but you have to remember that the Blood and Thunder arc contradicts Thor's previous showings of power while in Warrior Madness. He was nowhere near that effective against Adam Warlock as Him or against Maestro, so it's really more of a high end showing than the average...

effective enough that warlock was pretty much scared to death of thor . . .

and depends on what level of power you felt maestro was at. beyond that, thor never really fully attained 'complete madness' against the maestro. besides, he was just brawling. thor clearly doesn't need WM to wipe out ANY hulk.

what about a process of elimination, who goes first in you opinions?

wonder woman.

Originally posted by leonidas
effective enough that warlock was pretty much scared to death of thor . . .

and depends on what level of power you felt maestro was at. beyond that, thor never really fully attained 'complete madness' against the maestro. besides, he was just brawling. thor clearly doesn't need WM to wipe out ANY hulk.
I don't remember Warlock being scared, but then again it's been a while since I read the issue so I could be mistaken. But I do remember that the only reason Thor was even able to take him on was that Him lowered his force field and tried to go h2h with him.

Brawling was pretty much all he did against Surfer and the rest too, and he seemed a fair share more impressive doing it than he did against Maestro...

Originally posted by darthgoober
I don't remember Warlock being scared, but then again it's been a while since I read the issue so I could be mistaken. But I do remember that the only reason Thor was even able to take him on was that Him lowered his force field and tried to go h2h with him.

Brawling was pretty much all he did against Surfer and the rest too, and he seemed a fair share more impressive doing it than he did against Maestro...

yeah, reread the arc -- warlock was very much afraid of him. recalled the last time they fought and how thor almost killed, er, 'him'.

and regardless of how he looked comparatively, the arc is viable. in fact, since it FOCUSED on him being 'mad' i've always thought it should be the standard view of him in warrior madness.

Originally posted by leonidas
yeah, reread the arc -- warlock was very much afraid of him. recalled the last time they fought and how thor almost killed, er, 'him'.
After "Him" let down his force field you mean.

Originally posted by leonidas
and regardless of how he looked comparatively, the arc is viable. in fact, since it FOCUSED on him being 'mad' i've always thought it should be the standard view of him in warrior madness.
Of course the arc is viable, but the arc with Maestro is JUST as viable and unfortunately that instance isn't anywhere as impressive. So average the two together and you have a decent idea of just how effective Thor is when he's in Warrior Madness mode.

Originally posted by darthgoober
After "Him" let down his force field you mean.

can't recall the battle offhand. got it somewhere . . .

and it could be argued thor at his fullest would simply absorb the shield's energy. or i could say he has shown the power to bust through a celestial's shield but he couldn't break THTA force field . . .?

there will ALWAYS be a 'but'.






nah, don't work that way. you don't take 2 appearances and 'average' them. it's not math. maestro was also said to have killed every hero in his time period -- INCLUDING (i believe) the ss . . . then, too, it was hulk's book. i'll take an arc in thor's book, that focused on him being mad, over a single issue in hulk's book where thor wasn't even yet in full madness. not that hulk actually managed to hurt him even in that partially mad state.

Originally posted by leonidas
can't recall the battle offhand. got it somewhere . . .

and it could be argued thor at his fullest would simply absorb the shield's energy. or i could say he has shown the power to bust through a celestial's shield but he couldn't break THTA force field . . .?

there will ALWAYS be a 'but'.
But it could ALSO be argued that Thor doesn't do things like absorb force fields because he doesn't fight smart in Warrior Madness mode. I mean can you think of an instance of him being in WM where he was creative with his powers?

And for every showing you have of Thor busting something on a Celestial, there are probably 10 were he couldn't penetrate the Force Field of someone like Radioactive Man or Magneto. For that matter, I seem to remember Surfer successfully blocking with a Force Field during the Blood and Thunder Arc as well.


Originally posted by leonidas




nah, don't work that way. you don't take 2 appearances and 'average' them. it's not math. maestro was also said to have killed every hero in his time period -- INCLUDING (i believe) the ss . . . then, too, it was hulk's book. i'll take an arc in thor's book, that focused on him being mad, over a single issue in hulk's book where thor wasn't even yet in full madness. not that hulk actually managed to hurt him even in that partially mad state.
Well that's your prerogative, but personally I like to take ALL showings into consideration rather than just those from a characters core books.

thor

Originally posted by darthgoober
But it could ALSO be argued that Thor doesn't do things like absorb force fields because he doesn't fight smart in Warrior Madness mode. I mean can you think of an instance of him being in WM where he was creative with his powers?

hence the reason i said there will always be a 'but'. and thor's only been in warrior madness a couple times so it's hard to tell WHERE exactly he should be at and just how effectively he can use his powers. however, it has been shown on panel that he is 10x is strong and can't feel pain. i've seen regular thor do as well against the hulk as wm thor did in that book. thor x 10 should have been able to stomp him. thor 10x SHOULD have looked like he did in blood and thunder. which is why i like to think that arc depicts him much more accurately.



of course you can. like i could show thor effortlessly absorbing ss's amped power bolts and using a fist to shatter his force field . . . and i'm about 90% certain that in the past thor has absorbed magneto's force field AND busted radioactive man's. these no cis battles are almost impossible because any high feat i say you'll say it worked only because SOMEONE ELSE was displaying cis.



generally speaking i do as well, but that hulk story was really crap, imo. be like looking at 2 issues of spidey and factoring in his defeat of firelord as one of his showings then trying to average spidey's powers based on the fact that he beat a herald. doesn't work. obviously spidey has more showings to 'average', but you get the point. there really aren't many showings of WM thor, but a thor who is 10x more powerful than a regular thor otta be the beast we saw in blood and thunder.

so . . . i agree with guy.

does warlock have the soul gem

Free-for-all, no-holds-barred fight? Surfer ftw.

Surfer probably with ease.

Originally posted by leonidas
hence the reason i said there will always be a 'but'. and thor's only been in warrior madness a couple times so it's hard to tell WHERE exactly he should be at and just how effectively he can use his powers. however, it has been shown on panel that he is 10x is strong and can't feel pain. i've seen regular thor do as well against the hulk as wm thor did in that book. thor x 10 should have been able to stomp him. thor 10x SHOULD have looked like he did in blood and thunder. which is why i like to think that arc depicts him much more accurately.



of course you can. like i could show thor effortlessly absorbing ss's amped power bolts and using a fist to shatter his force field . . . and i'm about 90% certain that in the past thor has absorbed magneto's force field AND busted radioactive man's. these no cis battles are almost impossible because any high feat i say you'll say it worked only because SOMEONE ELSE was displaying cis.



generally speaking i do as well, but that hulk story was really crap, imo. be like looking at 2 issues of spidey and factoring in his defeat of firelord as one of his showings then trying to average spidey's powers based on the fact that he beat a herald. doesn't work. obviously spidey has more showings to 'average', but you get the point. there really aren't many showings of WM thor, but a thor who is 10x more powerful than a regular thor otta be the beast we saw in blood and thunder.

so . . . i agree with guy.
You raise many valid points, but there's one problem with your reasoning.... Thor has never been described as being x10 in Warrior Madness mode. There's a book where he talks about the Asgardian Berserker State as increasing as warriors strength by 10x, but no such description actually exist for Warrior Madness.

Now you want to say that the Blood and Thunder arc is a valid portrayal of WM because of it's limited number of appearances, then you should apply the same standard to everyone. For instance, why don't we take a look at one the only instances of Surfer in an insane/enraged state...

http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/2213/silversurferv3105p12mk3.jpg
http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/5638/silversurferv3105p13ak7.jpg
http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/1125/silversurferv3105p16bg8.jpg
http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/7110/silversurferv3105p17ec7.jpg
http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/2818/silversurferv3105p18yz0.jpg

And compare it to Thor performance against Super Skrull while in Warrior Madness mode...

http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/3900/thor46511vl6.jpg
http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/4760/thor46512ss4.jpg
http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/4149/thor46513gh5.jpg
http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/4094/thor46514cu9.jpg
http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/1433/thor46515ys6.jpg
http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/6956/thor46516zf8.jpg
http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/1047/thor4651718nx7.jpg
http://img266.imageshack.us/my.php?image=thor46519sf8.jpg

Who's seemed more powerful in your opinion?

that's all well and good except going warrior mad is a viable, in-character option for thor. going insane is NOT in-character for ss who is a pacifist at heart. regardless, thor is the consumate energy absorber -- no matter how much energy ss puts out thor should be able to deal with it if there is no stupidity involved. i've never understood why he couldn't do the same thing to ss as he did to the presence, who was quite uber as well. his hammer>ss which is why i take thor over ss in any debate.

and imo berserker state IS warrior madness.

Originally posted by leonidas
that's all well and good except going warrior mad is a viable, in-character option for thor. going insane is NOT in-character for ss who is a pacifist at heart. regardless, thor is the consumate energy absorber -- no matter how much energy ss puts out thor should be able to deal with it if there is no stupidity involved. i've never understood why he couldn't do the same thing to ss as he did to the presence, who was quite uber as well. his hammer>ss which is why i take thor over ss in any debate.

and imo berserker state IS warrior madness.
CIS is off, whether or not it's "in character" is irrelevant. And I'm not denying Thor's ability to absorb energy, he's one of the best at it and I fully credit him as such. But Quasar is right on par with him in that department and still had some problems with Surfer's energy...
http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/2526/quasar5038mh0.jpg

And the berserker state CAN'T be the same as Warrior Madness. We know that because one of them is an accepted practice in battle while one of them is an absolute cultural taboo. Until it's stated to have the same strength increase assigning one is simply speculation.

And what's to stop Surfer from handling Thor just as he did Durok(who Thor was pretty much completely ineffective against)?

Originally posted by LORD B
does warlock have the soul gem

Originally posted by LORD B

Yes(my bad for missing that).

Looks like Surfer is getting the popular vote in the polls..........

Originally posted by darthgoober
Yes(my bad for missing that).

adam warlock ftw via soul rip

Originally posted by darthgoober
CIS is off, whether or not it's "in character" is irrelevant. And I'm not denying Thor's ability to absorb energy, he's one of the best at it and I fully credit him as such. But Quasar is right on par with him in that department and still had some problems with Surfer's energy...
http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/2526/quasar5038mh0.jpg

And the berserker state CAN'T be the same as Warrior Madness. We know that because one of them is an accepted practice in battle while one of them is an absolute cultural taboo. Until it's stated to have the same strength increase assigning one is simply speculation.

And what's to stop Surfer from handling Thor just as he did Durok(who Thor was pretty much completely ineffective against)?

no cis doesn't imply we change the nature of a character. in any event it wouldn't matter if ss were insane or not. insane ss v wm thor, i still take thor. quasar had some trouble with ss but got the best of ss in that battle, imo. ss was going all out, q was holding back and let him win. and i'll take mjollnir over the quantum bands.

as for madness vs berserk: until i see evidence that one is actually 'more powerful' than the other, i'll consider them the same in that regard -- i think most consider them the same. madness is taboo because it is dishonorable in a sense that they lose a form of respect for their foe, they strike only in anger, without pity or mercy. how that's different from berserk, i've no idea but a mad or insane thor certainly has proven to be immensely powerful.

and . . . how is ss going to handle thor like durok?? didn't ss take durok through time on his board or something ridiculous like that to win? pretty nonsensical if i recall it correctly. and i also seem to recall durok ko'ing ss in that battle AND breaking his board. thor fought him for 3 issues. minus the pis ending, i'd say NEITHER was very effective against durok . . .

anyway, i doubt you'll alter your stance, and i've deabted thor v ss enough to know i'll take thor. ergo my friend, we're at an impasse. besides, i've already debated this longer than i intended.

Either Hal or Surfer take the win.

Uhm, a green lantern without CIS?

Hal stomps anyone?

Originally posted by leonidas
no cis doesn't imply we change the nature of a character. in any event it wouldn't matter if ss were insane or not. insane ss v wm thor, i still take thor. quasar had some trouble with ss but got the best of ss in that battle, imo. ss was going all out, q was holding back and let him win. and i'll take mjollnir over the quantum bands.

as for madness vs berserk: until i see evidence that one is actually 'more powerful' than the other, i'll consider them the same in that regard -- i think most consider them the same. madness is taboo because it is dishonorable in a sense that they lose a form of respect for their foe, they strike only in anger, without pity or mercy. how that's different from berserk, i've no idea but a mad or insane thor certainly has proven to be immensely powerful.

and . . . how is ss going to handle thor like durok?? didn't ss take durok through time on his board or something ridiculous like that to win? pretty nonsensical if i recall it correctly. and i also seem to recall durok ko'ing ss in that battle AND breaking his board. thor fought him for 3 issues. minus the pis ending, i'd say NEITHER was very effective against durok . . .

anyway, i doubt you'll alter your stance, and i've deabted thor v ss enough to know i'll take thor. ergo my friend, we're at an impasse. besides, i've already debated this longer than i intended.

You mean Durok who Thor later beat WITHOUT Mjolnir?

Originally posted by llagrok
Uhm, a green lantern without CIS?

Hal stomps anyone?



Exactly what I was thinking, to be honest.

The power of a Lantern is stated in-canon to be limited only by what we common refer to as 'CIS'.

I'd still put him about on par with the Surfer though; even if the Surfer wasn't explicitly stated to be limited by nothing but CIS.

Originally posted by leonidas
no cis doesn't imply we change the nature of a character. in any event it wouldn't matter if ss were insane or not. insane ss v wm thor, i still take thor. quasar had some trouble with ss but got the best of ss in that battle, imo. ss was going all out, q was holding back and let him win. and i'll take mjollnir over the quantum bands.
Quasar started holding back after he saw what was going on with Order and Chaos, but up until then he fighting just as hard as Surfer. And the scan I posted came from the period of the fight when he WAS trying. Ande while Thor's hammer may have the Q-Bands beaten in many respects, they're energy absorption is right there with Thor's.


BTW why do you still give insane Surfer vs WM Thor to Thor when Surfer's showing against a common foe was much more impressive?

Originally posted by leonidas
as for madness vs berserk: until i see evidence that one is actually 'more powerful' than the other, i'll consider them the same in that regard -- i think most consider them the same. madness is taboo because it is dishonorable in a sense that they lose a form of respect for their foe, they strike only in anger, without pity or mercy. how that's different from berserk, i've no idea but a mad or insane thor certainly has proven to be immensely powerful.
Feel free, but until I see confirmation that the two states are the same there's no way I'll consider feats for one to valid for the other. One is accepted freely among Asgardians and one carries an immediate death sentence from them so it seems fairly obvious to me that the two are different. They may be incredibly similar in description, but they're obviously different as far as the Asgardians are concerned.

Originally posted by leonidas
and . . . how is ss going to handle thor like durok?? didn't ss take durok through time on his board or something ridiculous like that to win? pretty nonsensical if i recall it correctly. and i also seem to recall durok ko'ing ss in that battle AND breaking his board. thor fought him for 3 issues. minus the pis ending, i'd say NEITHER was very effective against durok . . .

Unless I'm mistaken Thor lost his ability to time travel a whole back didn't he? That means that if Surfer BFR's him via time travel there's nothing Thor can do about it. And yes Surfer did win via time travel, but if you look Durok is unconscious when they get to the future....

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/2946/thor19327zt8.jpg
http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/9743/thor19328hv7.jpg

So Surfer was able to knock the guy out, which was something Thor was unable to do in that particular instance.

Originally posted by leonidas
anyway, i doubt you'll alter your stance, and i've deabted thor v ss enough to know i'll take thor. ergo my friend, we're at an impasse. besides, i've already debated this longer than i intended.

Originally posted by Soljer
Exactly what I was thinking, to be honest.

The power of a Lantern is stated in-canon to be limited only by what we common refer to as 'CIS'.

I'd still put him about on par with the Surfer though; even if the Surfer wasn't explicitly stated to be limited by nothing but CIS.
Unless I'm mistaken, the Power Cosmic's been described as being able to do anything and also as being limited only by Surfer's imagination. It's not nearly as well established as it is for GL's, but it's been mentioned at least once or twice. I'll look through some of my Surfer stuff and see if I can track down the instances...

Originally posted by darthgoober
Unless I'm mistaken, the Power Cosmic's been described as being able to do anything and also as being limited only by Surfer's imagination. It's not nearly as well established as it is for GL's, but it's been mentioned at least once or twice. I'll look through some of my Surfer stuff and see if I can track down the instances...
.

Originally posted by Soljer
.
It's not a lot cause I just glanced over the respect thread but here are a couple of things I found...

The Power Cosmic can accomplish anything...
http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/1075/fantasticfour07205ps3.jpg

Dr Doom using Surfer's powers can create any kind of weapon he wants(similarly to a GL's ability to create anything they can imagine)...
http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/1690/9itemcreationls7.jpg

Originally posted by Soljer
Exactly what I was thinking, to be honest.

The power of a Lantern is stated in-canon to be limited only by what we common refer to as 'CIS'.

I'd still put him about on par with the Surfer though; even if the Surfer wasn't explicitly stated to be limited by nothing but CIS. Maybe pre-Crisis this was true. The ring has limits. I think the power of a Green Lantern is more limited then the Surfer's.

There are far too many variables with this many characters involved at once.

I chose the Surfer. When he's holding back he destroys planets and creates black holes. Imagine what he could do uncorked.

Avlon, just list the variables and make an informed decision:

Thor
- Overall power: Near or at the top of this group (even minus Odinforce)
- Most powerful attack: Godblast, which wouldn't do too much since it takes a while to focus the energies, leaves him exhausted and apparently hasn't been shown to be all-encompassing.
- Trump card: Warrior madness, Mjolnir and plot device magic he has regularly employed in the past.
- Of special note: Immune to Warlock's karmic blast and Mjolnir can be used to deflect just about anything.

Silver Surfer
- Overall power: Near or at the top of this group (amped since 'Annihilation.')
- Most powerful attack: Black hole creation, among other things
- Trump card: Cosmic awareness and high end matter/energy manipulation which includes absorption and redirection.
- Of special note: Has had a historically tough time against Thor and probably Warlock who melded his soul with him.

Adam Warlock
- Overall power: Rivals most in the group (assuming circa 'Infinity Watch')
- Most powerful attack: Soul steal, which he's used on very high-level beings. But I've never seen it done to multiple opponents, so at best might be a one-shot kill.
- Trump card: Can control Surfer's board, karmic blast
- Of special note: He is probably the only one who fights better when he is calm and cool-headed rather then bloodlusted. His karmic blast would give everyone trouble... except Thor who is immune.

Quasar
- Overall power: Although underrated, still near the bottom (assuming Wendell Vaughn)
- Most powerful attack: Nothing special
- Trump card: Good energy manipulator, but still outclassed by Surfer
- Of special note: Apparently there have been several beings who have absorbed his Quantum energy, including Skeletron and Annihilus.

Superman
- Overall power: Near or at the top of this group
- Most powerful attack: T-Vo, hate it all you want, but its there, but I've never seen it used against more then one foe and other then agreeing to a duel, apparently it takes time to expand a theta field to draw an opponent in.
- Trump card: Would probably fly people into the sun and amp himself.
- Of special note: Has shattered Green Lantern constructs. Unfortunately, he has the most exploitable weaknesses since three characters could synthesize kryptonite and red sun radiation and two other characters could use magic/magical weapons against him.

Green Lantern (Hal)
- Overall power: Lil bit lower but can still rival some in the group
- Most powerful attack: Nothing special comes to mind
- Trump card: Matter/energy manipulation
- Of special note: Unfortunately, against the high-end capabilities listed, he'd probably have to focus an incredible amount of willpower while attacking/defending and his personal fields would suffer. He's also vulnerable to intense backlash should his contructs be shattered by pure force.

Firestorm
- Overall power: Rivals most in the group, sorely underrated IMHO
- Most powerful attack: Nothing special comes to mind
- Trump card: Instantaneous high-end matter/energy manipulation
- Of special note: Although relatively inexperienced, even current Firestorm has a large amount of feats under his belt. But he does seem to be a little bit out of his depth and might feel overwhelmed. Now that's not CIS, he just happens to not be as battle-tested as others and requires guidance/advice during some of his feats.

Wonder Woman (standard gear, plus sword, and sandals)
- Overall power: Rivals most in this group, sorely underrated IMHO
- Most powerful attack: Godwave, can amp her to an unknown degree but it can kill her if used for too long.
- Trump card: Lasso is versatile and she possesses nearly impenetrable defense. Some say invulnerable, but I've seen comics where even she admits that the bracelets won't protect her.
- Of special note: She can and has hung tough with a bloodlusted Superman, twice. Magical weapons would give Superman a tough time.

Hmmm. I'm going to go with Thor. He's near the top for strength, speed, fighting ability, versatility, defensive capabilities and he has no exploitable weaknesses. I think Surfer would still have a tough time against Thor and Warlock would honestly screw around with Surfer IMHO. I wanted to pick Adam Warlock as a dark horse candidate because of his cunning, but bottom-line is, he could find no answer against Thor if it ever turned into a 1v1.

Surfer: Could make a black hole to distract everyone while he exploited their weaknesses.

Firestorm: Could transmute everyone on the team imo.

Superman: Without cis, he would fly to the sun and amp himself before anyone noticed, wait for everyone to fight it out, and come back faster than anyone could react witha speed blitz.

I think that it would be between surfer and firestorm. Maybe.

Thor, Sufer, Hal and Firestorm are all capable of transmutation.

So, hmm....

Originally posted by llagrok
Thor, Sufer, Hal and Firestorm are all capable of transmutation.

So, hmm....

Sure, but the Surfer and Firestorm have way more experience with it than the other two, and Hal has more than Thor.

Originally posted by Soljer
Sure, but the Surfer and Firestorm have way more experience with it than the other two, and Hal has more than Thor.

It's not really a matter of experience, because you can easily turn your opponent into something fukked up. They're all capable of turning the players on the field into cotton candy.

Thor's hammer gives him some pretty impressive defense though.