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This thread is for discussion the role of clones in the upcomming Movie/TV series.

Starting with this clip from www.starwars.com

Interviewer: It also seems to show a little bit more of the clone characters as well.

Lucas: Yeah, now we get introduced to the clones, which we didn't get in the movies. Now, they're like main characters and they really are central to the whole thing, and you can identify them and know who they are, and it's sort of like "Band of Brothers" only with Jedi.

Therefore, we can expect to see a lot of development of who the clones are as people and as characters. It has also been noted that some episodes are expected to be clone only.

Development? Quite presumptious.

cool

Really no different to the animated series, then.

I am sure Jar Jar will have more screen time than all the clones together.

He'd beter not.

Platooooooooooon.

Or an Apocalypse Now parody.

Either would have me watching.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Really no different to the animated series, then.

Good point.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Really no different to the animated series, then.

Except really, it could be. Clones had roles in the Gendy series, but we're now talking 22min episodes with character development. I'd expect a lot more.

I wouldn't if I were you... just to save you the disappointment.

Originally posted by Alliance
Except really, it could be. Clones had roles in the Gendy series, but we're now talking 22min episodes with character development. I'd expect a lot more.

Well I dunno. They had central roles, episodes dedicated to them, they had personalities, they talked...

Ok, same as the original animated series but in a bit more detail? The principle is still the same. And they are still people who we all know do not, ultimately, have any moral sense, so I am hardly going to care about them just because we see what they do.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Well I dunno. They had central roles, episodes dedicated to them, they had personalities, they talked...

Nothing was ever mentioned about thier wants, goals, feelings, etc. I think its highly likely we'll see something of that magnitude.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Ok, same as the original animated series but in a bit more detail? The principle is still the same. And they are still people who we all know do not, ultimately, have any moral sense, so I am hardly going to care about them just because we see what they do.

Just because you refuse to interpret or extrapolate a moral sense doesn't mean they don't have one.

Why would they have any goals, wants, feeling or moral senses that can stand in the way of their very purpose? There's no point to that. If you're gonna design clones, you wanna make sure you use all the benefits of them being human but do away with everything that might stand in the way of your goals.
You want the Clones to be more than they are.

Still think they should parody Platoon. Have one clone as a nut and another as the pseudo messiah. Be fun that. Actually, it wouldn't, but I still like the concept.

Originally posted by Alliance
Nothing was ever mentioned about thier wants, goals, feelings, etc. I think its highly likely we'll see something of that magnitude.



Just because you refuse to interpret or extrapolate a moral sense doesn't mean they don't have one.

Their wants and goals are to serve; why would they be beyond that?

And the events of ROTS prove they do not have a moral sense; the only thing that counts for them is obeying orders. I'm not interpreting or extrapolating; it is flat out on screen.

As said- you are wanting them to be more than they are.

Originally posted by exanda kane
Still think they should parody Platoon. Have one clone as a nut and another as the pseudo messiah. Be fun that. Actually, it wouldn't, but I still like the concept.

I'll start writing the script.

Well at least you're not affected by the "you can write it but you can't say it" dogma that Lucas has!

How would you know?

Give us a draft!

It takes a while.

Or did ya mean beer?

That's a quicker and better solution.

Let's have a drink then.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Their wants and goals are to serve; why would they be beyond that?

And the events of ROTS prove they do not have a moral sense; the only thing that counts for them is obeying orders. I'm not interpreting or extrapolating; it is flat out on screen.

As said- you are wanting them to be more than they are.

When was that ever specifically stated or shown? Please, lets stop making up sh!t and start actually observing whats going on. You are basing your arguments on I N T E R P R E T A T I O N. You are:

1. Focusing on ONE specific instance.

2. Extrapolating what YOU want to see from that instance.

3. Ignoring other instances that might countradict your vapid claims.

What a great approach. No wonder you can't make points.

and "why would they be beyond that?" Please. Stop insulting yourself.

I think the Kaminoans in AOTC were pretty clear about the clones.

Well, I think the Kaminons seem pretty self important. They'd be like Ush. The clones are their little science project, they certianly would think of them highly. Wouldn't they oversell thier product?

It all boils down to this: you credit them with characteristics no canon source confirms. So who cares if they oversell, you still want them to be more than the canon or its maker allows them to be. It's your good right, but it belongs in the EU.

AS you so often damn well remind us, this IS an EU forum. So, even if you think my opinon is EU, its perfectable acceptable here. I do not think my opionion is EU, but if you're maintinaing that position, you should begin to act accordingly.

I have a brain. I can think beyond what is presented. Myabe you have problems doing this, but since all you're doing is the exact same thing I am, I see no reason to entertain your ideas.

There really is no movie evidence either way on this topic, so we have to turn to the EU.

No we don't. If there is a grey area in SW, this forum is it... for now. It's unclear whether the series is EU or not. But so far we have no reason to believe the clones are represented differently that in the canon movies.

And thinking beyond what is represented is fine, but I do think you have to use the represented materials as foundations for that. Not to imagine something taht totally contradicts the presented material. That's not thinking beyond, that's wanting things to be different.

This is an EU forum. It's allready been stated that there are 2 classifications the movies and the EU. This isn't movies (It's a few episodes shown in a theater, and then a TV series) so therefore it must be EU, unless GL wants to be even more of a fool and creates a third classification.

besides, I'm sure this series will show clones acting on their own, but then all the movie purists in the world will start crying "Oh, but that's EU!" and nothing will ever change.

Well, there LFL of course. There are rumours from both the game makers of Force Unleashed and people who make the animated series that both SW spin offs are supposed to be canon. No official word from LFL, but if that's the case, it's canon. If not it's EU.

There is canon EU.

But in ROTS, aren't Cody and Obi-Wan joking with each other?

Originally posted by Kapton JAC
There is canon EU.

That like saying there's dry water.

It's true. Lucas wrote the stories for, executive produced, and directed pick-ups and re-shoots for, both of the Ewok films from the mid-eighties: Caravan of Courage and The Battle for Endor. Lucas has worked closely with the creators of the Star Wars: The Clone Wars TV series, and has rewrote several of the stories. Lucas also gave Genndy Tartakovsky information on specific events during the Clone Wars, which Genndy then used in part of the series. The character of Darth Bane is an original creation of Lucas'.

Originally posted by chik4lit
But in ROTS, aren't Cody and Obi-Wan joking with each other?

That is true. While he was still on the ship.

And before Order 66.

... hmm... He has a point...

Personally, I believe that the clones can think on their own, but the way they are made makes them follow orders from their superiors explicitly. That's what makes them superior to droids, they can think on their feet, but when it comes to following orders, they have little to no free will.

They have wants and goals like everyone, but their military life comes first and foremost, nothing else is as important as that.

Kapton JAC pretty much sums it up, in my opinion.

Same here.

Originally posted by chik4lit
Kapton JAC pretty much sums it up, in my opinion.

I do? Cool.

well done.

So the books aren't canon?

Say The Darth Vader:Rise of the Sith Lord or whatever its called which would, I imagine, fall into the same time period as this TV Show...

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
So the books aren't canon?

Say The Darth Vader:Rise of the Sith Lord or whatever its called which would, I imagine, fall into the same time period as this TV Show...
the only canon are the movies, their novels and their radio play. The rest is EU, even if lucas permissioned it and all.

I heard he wrote for this series too (or is that the live-action one?), so I'm unsure about those

We're all unsure about the status of the new television series. No official Lucasfilm comment on that.

This just in from LFL. Due to Alliance somehow pissing off Mr Lucas, there will be no clones in The Clone Wars. Instead, the clones will be replaced by... get ready for it.... EWOKS!!!!!

Sorry Alliance.

Considering the idiotic human-like personalities Lucas applied to some of the droids, I'd prefer the clones stay emotionless fighting machines.

i don't think your happy enough.

I'll teach you to be happy.

I'll teach your grandmother to suck eggs!

Sounds interesting.

Originally posted by Robtard
Considering the idiotic human-like personalities Lucas applied to some of the droids, I'd prefer the clones stay emotionless fighting machines.

I agree.

So all the emotion we get is from silly battle droids? The scary power that overturns the balance of the universe??? Pffffwoohhahahahaha....

Originally posted by queeq
So all the emotion we get is from silly battle droids?

The scary power that overturns the balance of the universe??? Pffffwoohhahahahaha....

No.

Not sure what you meant with your second sentence.

Me neither!

Ugh!!!

Originally posted by Jovan
the only canon are the movies,

And also the 2D clone Wars series.

I don't think so.

I hate that word...

Which one? Think?

Canon

Ah... well, it's a common word here.

Originally posted by queeq
Which one? Think?

There was a pretty interesting discussion going on here, so just my two cents- I believe the clones, despite being constructed and intended to be emotionless killing machine, in fact developed a personality and an attachment to their Jedi commanders.

This is notably seen in three instances; Obi-Wan's 'buddy'-styled relationship with Commander Cody. If Cody did not have human emotions, he wouldn't have joked around with Obi-Wan- orders, however, came before that for Cody. In Felucia, meanwhile, the Clones grew a deep respect and admiration for Aayla Secura, due to her feats on the battlefield, which involve saving the Clones' asses plenty of times. Perhaps the best example is seen in the beginning of Rise of Darth Vader, where a group of clones- due to their attachment to the Jedi commanders- refuse to carry out the orders, and let the Jedi escape.

Clearly, these Clones have developed a personality beyond their creator's original plans.

I doubt it's beyond the plans. Palpy need Clones to be better than mindless droids. So Clones needs personality to use creativity in battle, thus having an advantage over preprogrammed droids. It's not surprising a personality comes into play, but I doubt it's something that grows beyond the purpose they were made for.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
There was a pretty interesting discussion going on here, so just my two cents- I believe the clones, despite being constructed and intended to be emotionless killing machine, in fact developed a personality and an attachment to their Jedi commanders.

This is notably seen in three instances; Obi-Wan's 'buddy'-styled relationship with Commander Cody. If Cody did not have human emotions, he wouldn't have joked around with Obi-Wan- orders, however, came before that for Cody. In Felucia, meanwhile, the Clones grew a deep respect and admiration for Aayla Secura, due to her feats on the battlefield, which involve saving the Clones' asses plenty of times. Perhaps the best example is seen in the beginning of Rise of Darth Vader, where a group of clones- due to their attachment to the Jedi commanders- refuse to carry out the orders, and let the Jedi escape.

Clearly, these Clones have developed a personality beyond their creator's original plans.

Judging by the comments made by the show's writers about this very issue, I am happy to concede that this is so.

That said, they DO all turn bad in the end, so theyt are still not fully developed sentient beings in the way we would recognise it; free will is essential to such a term. Cody turned bad with all of them.

I feel this statement by the film overrides what Rise of Darth Vader says. It was simply not possible for even the Jedi to prevent betrayal by their friends amongst the Clones. If Obi-Wan and Yoda could not, no-one could.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Judging by the comments made by the show's writers about this very issue, I am happy to concede that this is so.

That said, they DO all turn bad in the end, so theyt are still not fully developed sentient beings in the way we would recognise it; free will is essential to such a term. Cody turned bad with all of them.

I feel this statement by the film overrides what Rise of Darth Vader says. It was simply not possible for even the Jedi to prevent betrayal by their friends amongst the Clones. If Obi-Wan and Yoda could not, no-one could.

They have developed a range of emotions beyond what they were 'supposed' to possess, but nevertheless, the fundamental core of the Clone Troopers is follow-orders-at-all-costs. Meaning, even if they developed an attachment to someone, orders from the Supreme Commander still come first.

They aren't entirely human, but they aren't emotionless machines, either.

The thing is, it wasn't even 'orders come first'. There was no sign of regret or remorse from Cody, nothing in the line of "I hate to do this but ordersd are orders" (which is immoral enough a creed as it is). No, he went straight at it, just as enthusiastically as he had been fighting alongside him moments before.

Horrifying in many ways, and I think it goes beyond an inbuilt subservience. It's a moral void.

Originally posted by Alliance
AS you so often damn well remind us, this IS an EU forum. So, even if you think my opinon is EU, its perfectable acceptable here. I do not think my opionion is EU, but if you're maintinaing that position, you should begin to act accordingly.

I have a brain. I can think beyond what is presented. Myabe you have problems doing this, but since all you're doing is the exact same thing I am, I see no reason to entertain your ideas.

You are now my favorite person...

Well...we saw the clone wars episodes last night here in America...It was decent enough even tho the droids did too much talking.. Overall it was pretty good and the second episode that came on was pretty damn awesome. It was alot grittier and more Clone Wars like...

Originally posted by MasterAshenVor
You are now my favorite person... #

Except he was wrong. Please go check the canon rules; sources from the films override all else.

Originally posted by Alliance
AS you so often damn well remind us, this IS an EU forum. So, even if you think my opinon is EU, its perfectable acceptable here. I do not think my opionion is EU, but if you're maintinaing that position, you should begin to act accordingly.

I have a brain. I can think beyond what is presented. Myabe you have problems doing this, but since all you're doing is the exact same thing I am, I see no reason to entertain your ideas.



Originally posted by Ushgarak
#

Except he was wrong. Please go check the canon rules; sources from the films override all else.

But there is no true film source on that subject. But I guess for fools who can't see meaning behind what is actually said... *shrugs*

Yep. Until it's officially stated it's still up for interpretation.

That being said, in the Clone Commando novels a clone gets a jedi chick pregnant.

So... I'm sure there will end up being some conflict when 66 comes around.

That's manifestly untrue- you should read things properly. Alliance was trying to override things said on film with his own opinion, saying blanket things like that the lines by the Kaminoans about the troopers were lies, because these canon facts did not suit him.

The film facts here are actually clear. To support Alliance's position is contrary tp canon and thus folly.

It is canon that the Clones were made the way they were.

It is canon about how Cody acted with order 66 even after a long relationship with Obi-Wan.

In fact it is clear that with ALL the major Jedi who had had years to build up such relationships, their commanders cold-bloodedly ordered or caused their deaths without pause for thought or reason.

All facts for those with the wit to see them. Now, don't be like Alliance and constrcut you own contrary view and then try to selectively ignore canon to make it work for gim. That doesn't swing. Hence his attitude in this thread is an extremely bad one to find laudable.

There's plenty of room for debate about the Clones, but Alliance's pretention to his nonsense being intelligent thought was just whitewash. There is nothing smart or deeper-looking about simply ignoring presented facts to suit your own view. That's all he did.

Again, the canon rules here are clear. Your opinion does not trump what the films say, and that is what Alliance was trying to do and what you are trying to support.