Yoda vs. Sidious rematch (no where to fall)

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wolfpack86
This is Yoda vs. Sidious in a rematch, in the Geonosian hanger where Dooku fought in Episode 2. There is no where to fall, so there is going to be a definitive winner this time, who takes it?


1) Sabers


2) Force


3) All Out

Lord Knightfa11
too close to call. yoda and sideous a) both die or b) one gets bored and runs away.

notice how lucas had it be an "unluckiness" and they both got blown back in the end only yoda was on the wrong side of the senate pod.

Light_Sith
I will just go straight to all out.

In the ROTS novel it is implied that Sidious is just too good - even that he could not possibly be beaten at that particular time.

But yes - in the movie, it was more down to chance.

Who wins?

The Bookies.

Janus Marius
lol

Darth Sexy
They are equals according to GL. However, they were equal when Sidious had the high ground so it would be interesting to see what would happen had they been on the same level.

Lord Knightfa11
yea, darth sexy... there is like no way to debate this... someone would have to get lucky to win.

Lt. Valerian
I agree. There is no way to know the outcome of this duel.

Darth Subjekt
Yoda seemed to have the upper hand in their duel. Sidious just "got lucky" and won.

Lt. Valerian
It may have seemed, but they are stated to be equals. It will probably be the same here: someone needs to "get lucky" to be able to beat the other.

Publius
I "get lucky" with Gideon all the time.

Darth Sexy
Sure thing Noobaris, enjoy another ban..

Darth Subjekt
Originally posted by Lt. Valerian
It may have seemed, but they are stated to be equals. It will probably be the same here: someone needs to "get lucky" to be able to beat the other. Sidious got lucky that after Yoda over powered him with his own force attack and they both flew back, that a bar magically appeared for him to grab on to. Yoda was overpowering him and that's really all there is to it.

wolfpack86
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Sidious got lucky that after Yoda over powered him with his own force attack and they both flew back, that a bar magically appeared for him to grab on to. Yoda was overpowering him and that's really all there is to it.


Yeah, I agree that Yoda was overpowering him, you could just tell by the look on Sidious's face, I also believe that Yoda would probably win in the saber duel, because in the movie he did disarm Sidious of his saber, even though they didn't show it, it's pretty obvious that he did disarm him, otherwise Sidious would have whipped it out when Yoda was flying up to meet him, rather then having that concerned look on his face. With that in mind, I think Yoda would take this matchup.

0°Mandalore°0
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Sidious got lucky that after Yoda over powered him with his own force attack and they both flew back, that a bar magically appeared for him to grab on to. Yoda was overpowering him and that's really all there is to it.

That's like saying Yoda got lucky when he fell down because a platform to which he could hang on magically appeared. They are equals, there's nothing to it. Besides, there is absolutely nothing indicating Yoda was overpowering Sidious (I just saw the fight in Youtube). A fair duel, let's say, in Dantooine's plains, would be very different. Yoda has nothing to use in his advantage, and neither does Sidious.



Yoda did not disarm Sidious. As I said before, I just watched the fight on Youtub and there's not a single moment in the fight suggesting Sidious was disarmed. Besides, your logic fails. Disarming someone doesn't immediately put Person X above Person Y. Being able to disarm an opponent has nothing to do with the person's actual dueling skills.

xxxpoppunker182
from how ROTS portrays sidious and yoda i would have to say that yoda takes this but barely.

in ROTS palpatine would rather run away from yoda than face him.

During their lightsaber fight it is very clear to see yoda out dueling him. if you don't agree go to youtube right now and watch the fight palpatine struggles to overcome yoda at least twice from what the film shows.

and lastly during their force fight yoda confidently overcomes palpatines sith lightning( which is more or less quite powerful seeing as how he is the most powerful sith who ever lived and how it looks like he was putting alot of power into it from how the movie shows this scene) and when palpatine realizes that yoda can overcome this the look on his face is priceless and dumbfounded.

so from i i've deduced from the film is that although yoda and sidious are equals yoda is just a better combatant and putting them in a nutreal fighting area i'd say that 6/10 times yoda would win.

after a long and tiring very close fight i believe yoda manages to kill sidious

0°Mandalore°0
Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
from how ROTS portrays sidious and yoda i would have to say that yoda takes this but barely.

That's speculation from your part.



That's easily explained: Sidious knew how powerful Yoda is. He didn't want to risk fighting someone such as him, because he knew anyone could emerge victorious.



I just don't understand why people keep saying this. It's just not true.



I just did... and of course he struggles. They. Are. Equals. That is why both of them struggle.



Confidently? I can assure you he put up a bloody lot of effort to be able to block the lightning.



PS: I forgot to mention this in my other reply: Actually, Sidious is the one who disarms Yoda...

xxxpoppunker182
during the lightsaber fight yoda doesn't seem to be struggling at all. but then again i don't own the novelization so he very well could be stated as such but i wouldn't know.

also with that we seem to just have two different takes on how that fight appears to us.

during the force battle yes, yoda put in alot of effort to counter the lightning and i guess confident wasn't what i should have said more like determined. before they were blast apart yoda and sidious knew that yoda had overpowered the sith lightning and the look on yoda face right before they are blast apart is one of either determination or confidence. but again this is what it appears to me.

aren't all vs forums everyones own speculation on who wins and why. so we come together to argue points from our perspective along with canon evidence?

0°Mandalore°0
Well, partly. If you are 100% certain that Person X would beat Person Y, and all evidence available points that way, it is not speculation, it is fact. We only speculate in fights like this, I guess, when we can't really say with certainty how would it turn out.

xxxpoppunker182
ya i agree. i do think though that in fights like this when it comes down to personal opinions and speculation wouldn't we have to go towards what the majority say?

i think so because of the different cultures around the world. for example here in America it's illegal for anyone to be in public naked because the majority of people are offended by it but over in africa it isn't offensive so it's ok.

the same situation but depending on how the majority views it determines how the situation is dealt with. here in America a naked person would be arrested for indecent exposure and over in Africa the naked will go unpunished all because of peoples different takes on the same issue.

wolfpack86

Tangible God
Originally posted by wolfpack86
The way "I" perceived the fight he "did" disarm him, I mean really, when Yoda chucked the senate pod back up at Sidious, and Sidious jumped down to another pod, he was looking all frightened and scared, like where is he, where is he, at that point if he "actually" did have his saber "I" think it would have been a good time to pull it out, don't you? Why bother, Yoda lights his saber up twice during the Pod-hucking scene, and never even gets close to Palpatine. A direct blast of lightning at Yoda, and away goes his saber. It's also odd to note that, even if Yoda DID relieve Palpatine of his saber, Palpatine still manages to get all way the up to a Senate pod, stories above Yoda's head, and rip another two out of the wall to send them careening at Yoda. If that was Palpatine after getting legitimately disarmed by Yoda, then Yoda's poor timing is gonna lose him the fight.

Then factor in Yoda's necessity to use the Force to power his sporadic movements. He's gonna burn out. Throw in Yoda's thoughts from the novelization, and I just don't see how changing the environment is gonna help him here.

And there's a pretty nasty drop right outside that hangar by the way.

Gideon
Spot on logic. While it's possible and arguable that Yoda disarmed Sidious, as he demonstrated enough skill to do so, one would also have to account for Sidious -- unarmed -- managing to escape from a lightsaber wielding Yoda in close quarters combat and put that much distance between them.

Lt. Valerian
Yeah, but the problem is Yoda's lightsaber was sent flying away by Palpatine's lightning, so both of them would be unarmed.

truejedi
then it just all comes down to wrestling... No wonder GL ended when he did. Yoda hanging onto Sidous leg, trying to wrestle him to the ground, sidous shaking his leg around trying to shake him off... nobody wanted to see that. big grin

darthsith19
I see no reason why the results wouldn't be the same as in ROTS. Sure Yoda only lost because he is smaller and lighter, and therefore flew off the senate pod further than Sidious did, but size is a factor in a fight and not an excuse. In this fight, there is a place to fall off, too, the cliff right outside the hanger. If Sidious were losing he would do whatever he needs to do to win, and would go out there if he had to.

So I think Sidious wins the all-out and the Force. He was winning the majority of the Force duel in ROTS, up until the very end when they seemed even. Yoda wins the saber fight though, he was superior in ROTS when he disarmed Sidious and I see no reason why he wouldn't be able to do so again.










Short-version: Same results as in ROTS.

Faunus
Originally posted by darthsith19
I see no reason why the results wouldn't be the same as in ROTS. Sure Yoda only lost because he is smaller and lighter, and therefore flew off the senate pod further than Sidious did, but size is a factor in a fight and not an excuse. In this fight, there is a place to fall off, too, the cliff right outside the hanger. If Sidious were losing he would do whatever he needs to do to win, and would go out there if he had to.To quote IKC:

You heard it here first; if there's a drop, Yoda loses.

He was "winning" - this, apparently, being based on facial expressions alone - when Yoda was about to slip off the edge of the pod.


Why would he win the all-out for sure, but you would "think" he takes the Force contest? Considering Yoda's a Jedi, the only ways he'd be able to kill Sidious in a Force battle would be by dropping that crane on his head or knocking him over the edge of the cliff. In an all-out fight I would go with Yoda, although it'd be tight to say the least.

Lord Knightfa11
speculation. you really cant incorporate the way "YOU" percieve it into a debate/verdict on who would win something.

darthsith19
Originally posted by Faunus

Why would he win the all-out for sure, but you would "think" he takes the Force contest? Considering Yoda's a Jedi, the only ways he'd be able to kill Sidious in a Force battle would be by dropping that crane on his head or knocking him over the edge of the cliff. In an all-out fight I would go with Yoda, although it'd be tight to say the least.
I never said he would "for sure" win the all-out fight, since I stated it it is obviously just my opinion. I said "I think" for the Force and all-out duel, so I don't know what you're talking about. I do think it'd be very close.

Gideon
Though Yoda is no less than Sidious's equal in Force strength, it's a simple truth that, ultimately, Sidious has a much more offensive arsenal of Force powers at his command. Likewise, Yoda's lightsaber versus Sidious's Force lightning = weaponless Yoda. He'd put up a fight, but the context of the fight is against him. He loses the Force fight, for sure, and it's arguable that he could win the lightsaber fight. But as for an all out duel? I'm not so sure.

Faunus
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
speculation. you really cant incorporate the way "YOU" percieve it into a debate/verdict on who would win something. That's what this is, genius. Speculation. We don't know what would happen if the fight were take place in another location, so we speculate. Stop trying to sound smart.

0°Mandalore°0
Originally posted by Gideon
Though Yoda is no less than Sidious's equal in Force strength, it's a simple truth that, ultimately, Sidious has a much more offensive arsenal of Force powers at his command. Likewise, Yoda's lightsaber versus Sidious's Force lightning = weaponless Yoda. He'd put up a fight, but the context of the fight is against him. He loses the Force fight, for sure, and it's arguable that he could win the lightsaber fight. But as for an all out duel? I'm not so sure.

I think nobody's sure of this one.

Lord Knightfa11
Originally posted by Faunus
That's what this is, genius. Speculation. We don't know what would happen if the fight were take place in another location, so we speculate. Stop trying to sound smart.

not trying anything. if "you" percieved it as smart, then thats what it was.

didnt understand that we were debating through opinions and speculations, in wich case

they fight untill they are both tired, and then the moomu brothers attack and kill them both.

wolfpack86
Originally posted by Tangible God
Why bother, Yoda lights his saber up twice during the Pod-hucking scene, and never even gets close to Palpatine. A direct blast of lightning at Yoda, and away goes his saber. It's also odd to note that, even if Yoda DID relieve Palpatine of his saber, Palpatine still manages to get all way the up to a Senate pod, stories above Yoda's head, and rip another two out of the wall to send them careening at Yoda. If that was Palpatine after getting legitimately disarmed by Yoda, then Yoda's poor timing is gonna lose him the fight.

Then factor in Yoda's necessity to use the Force to power his sporadic movements. He's gonna burn out. Throw in Yoda's thoughts from the novelization, and I just don't see how changing the environment is gonna help him here.

And there's a pretty nasty drop right outside that hangar by the way.

Let's just say for the sake of the argument, that neither of them will be doing any falling.

MadMel
Originally posted by Tangible God
Then factor in Yoda's necessity to use the Force to power his sporadic movements. He's gonna burn out. Throw in Yoda's thoughts from the novelization, and I just don't see how changing the environment is gonna help him here.
theres one tiny flaw with this - palp also needs to empower himself with the force, otherwise, his weak old man's hands would wear out..
but does this really matter?? if they are truly equals with the force, then they shouldnt worry about "burning out" too much, since they both have the power to perform much greater feats than keep themselves strong and agile for the duration of one battle..

truejedi
Originally posted by truejedi
then it just all comes down to wrestling... No wonder GL ended when he did. Yoda hanging onto Sidous leg, trying to wrestle him to the ground, sidous shaking his leg around trying to shake him off... nobody wanted to see that. big grin

when i wrote this, i was kidding, but when you think about it, if sidious has lost his weapon, and is gonna try to fry Yoda, Yoda's best move is to just grab on and wrestle. Sidious couldn't hit him with lightning when he's hanging on to him. he could even have quoted Python's, "I'll gnaw your knees off" if lucas had let him.

0°Mandalore°0

Elok Quintly
Secondary sources, such as The New Essential Chronology and the ROTS novelization state that Yoda was overpowered and could not have won.

The movie, on the other hand, does nothing to reinforce this. It is interesting to note that Sidious seemed to be amused throughout the duel, while Yoda maintains a look of severity plastered over his face the whole time. There is no indication that Palpatine ever feared losing.

Also, the looks on their faces during the lightning struggle don't prove anything. They both exchanged expressions of exertion at different points.

Gideon
Palpatine, a man who willingly hurled himself at four of the Jedi Order's finest swordsmen after touching his lightsaber for the first time in over a decade, did attempt to flee the duel before hand, which is a good indicator that, given Yoda's status and reputation, he knew full well that there was an excellent chance that he could lose the engagement, and whereas Yoda's expression throughout the duel indicated pain, Palpatine -- during the Force-lightning-war on the Senate pod -- made facial expressions evident of fear or self concern. That said, he is a Sith Lord, and one who just achieved galactic domination, so self-preservation would be a high priority.

Elok Quintly
I suppose it is a subjective matter. To me, Palpatine's facial expressions during the lighting-struggle were indicative of strain and effort.

While I concede that Palpatine and Yoda were most likely evenly matched in lightsaber combat, I do not believe that they are equals in Force ability.

Janus Marius
Yoda vs Sidious video

Right at 3:40, the tide turns and Sidious looks quite afraid and pained.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Janus Marius
Yoda vs Sidious video

Right at 3:40, the tide turns and Sidious looks quite afraid and pained.

Indeed. People always seem to overlook this. Sidious might have more offensive weapons available to him but their force mastery is equal as of ROTS.

Janus Marius
I know this has been said many many times and not just by myself, but the two were most definitely not equal.

In lightsaber mastery, Yoda controls the engagement, making Sidious work double to keep track of him and even trapping his blade (2:35-2:40). Mind you, Yoda, barely as high as Sidious' knee, using a shoto saber, managed to trap his blade and hold it down. Shortly after, Sidious is shown hacking wildly, not scoring a hit (Watch it closely, every single swing is blocked neatly by Yoda before it's even truly begun) while snarling and generally not looking like he's having an easy time or it nor controlling the fight.

Then it cuts to him being saberless and up high with no real explanation, because GL hates his fans.

As for Force mastery? Yoda is clearly the superior here. In the lightning attack, Yoda catches the intial blast with one hand, steps forward now using both hands, and Sidious walks across the pod, increasing his power. Yoda, initially having a rough time of it, steels himself and Sidious starts to pee his pants. Then Yoda leans forward, the tide reverses entirely, and the resulting concussive blast ends the fight, Yoda falling the equivalent of several stories while Sidious manages to grab a handrail.

Fight goes to Sidious on account of ring out.

wolfpack86
Originally posted by Janus Marius
I know this has been said many many times and not just by myself, but the two were most definitely not equal.

In lightsaber mastery, Yoda controls the engagement, making Sidious work double to keep track of him and even trapping his blade (2:35-2:40). Mind you, Yoda, barely as high as Sidious' knee, using a shoto saber, managed to trap his blade and hold it down. Shortly after, Sidious is shown hacking wildly, not scoring a hit (Watch it closely, every single swing is blocked neatly by Yoda before it's even truly begun) while snarling and generally not looking like he's having an easy time or it nor controlling the fight.

Then it cuts to him being saberless and up high with no real explanation, because GL hates his fans.

As for Force mastery? Yoda is clearly the superior here. In the lightning attack, Yoda catches the intial blast with one hand, steps forward now using both hands, and Sidious walks across the pod, increasing his power. Yoda, initially having a rough time of it, steels himself and Sidious starts to pee his pants. Then Yoda leans forward, the tide reverses entirely, and the resulting concussive blast ends the fight, Yoda falling the equivalent of several stories while Sidious manages to grab a handrail.

Fight goes to Sidious on account of ring out.

Your assessment of the fight seems spot on to me, it's exactly the conclusions I have made while analyzing the video many times.

Lord Knightfa11
aye. me too. i always thought that yoda lost out of pure luck...

Elite Hunter
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
aye. me too. i always thought that yoda lost out of pure luck...

Or in star wars terms "the will of the force" and whoever said the comment about Sidious laughing,he was definitely using Dun Moch to try and break Yoda's will to fight/fighting spirit, since he (sidious) was appeared to be enjoying the fight and not tired while Yoda, you can tell is putting everything he has into it.

Darth Sexy
That's an interesting asseessment as well. Sidious is laughing at times and gnarling at times so it just proves he's psychotic, not that he's having a good time.

Gideon
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Indeed. People always seem to overlook this. Sidious might have more offensive weapons available to him but their force mastery is equal as of ROTS.

Darth Sexy, I'm going to abandon my usual patience and quickly apply the "bullshit!" stamp to the quoted statement. Very few people overlook Darth Sidious's facial expressions during the course of the duel; many more neglect or undermine Yoda's own expressions of pain and anguish.



And I know that this has been said many, many times and not just by myself, but the two were most definitely equals.



How does Yoda control the engagement, exactly? When Palpatine first launched himself into the Chancellor's podium, he was attacking Yoda at the same time, not being driven back. Furthermore, I would remind you that -- as the podium rises into the rotunda and the camera pulls back -- we see Yoda force Sidious from the central placement in the podium to Mas Amedda's spot. Yet when the camera resumes, Sidious has once again reclaimed the central position, logically concluding that he forced Yoda out of a position as well. Likewise, Yoda is the one doing the intense acrobatics and moving, and gains absolutely zero ground for it. I will also point out that none of Yoda's strikes breaks through Sidious's defenses, either. If you're going to assert that Yoda's clearly dominant throughout the duel, I expect further evidence to prove it.



Absurd. Palpatine made similar facial expressions during his fight with Mace Windu, even as he drove the Jedi Master back from the private office, through the hallway, and into the larger one. There is no indication that this was because he was "not controlling" the fight or because he was losing, Janus. He's an immensely psychotic Sith Lord who has just unleashed his full fury on an enemy combatant for the first time in presumably decades. You'll need more than this to insinuate that Yoda is superior to Sidious in terms of lightsaber combat.



He's clearly not, but I'll humor you.



Let's put this into precise context, shall we? Yoda lands on the pod, ignites his lightsaber, and brings it to his shoulder. Palpatine reaches out and relieves him of his weapon via Force lightning and the Jedi stumbles back, but catches the lightning with one hand. Palpatine then brings his other hand up and emits more Force lightning as Yoda regains his footing and uses both hands to deflect it. Palpatine advances; Yoda remains stationary. He can't move.



I'm off to a funeral, but I'd appreciate it if you'd let me finish my argument before responding to it. Thanks.

Janus Marius

Janus Marius
I have limited time to, Escape, so let me just post the following to get the argument started:

Here's the first real attack of the saber fight:

http://i25.tinypic.com/15x4u1j.jpg

Yoda does a leaping attack, back initially exposed. Sidious already had his blade up. He comes right down with it.

Next scene:

http://i27.tinypic.com/26201zp.jpg

Yoda deflects his cleave without any effort or change in his jump direction. And lands and does a jump back which makes Sidious flail about and pull a stupid face:

http://i25.tinypic.com/mb7nsw.jpg

Clearly, he's not in control of the fight at that moment, being unbalanced by Yoda's attack. Next, Yoda bounces again off of the center pod, this time behind Sidious' attacking shoulder. Watch the sequence to see how Sidious barely gets in a defense, and only in front of himself:

http://i28.tinypic.com/2zrjaqw.jpg

http://i25.tinypic.com/35izqsn.jpg

http://i29.tinypic.com/2bsmfq.jpg

So now Sidious has lost any advantage and is in a saber lock of sorts with his opponent. Despite being taller, physically stronger, and having a longer blade (Equally more leverage), Yoda again controls the engagement and breaks the saber lock, initiating another leap attack:

http://i26.tinypic.com/14vig03.jpg

http://i31.tinypic.com/idc0hk.jpg

http://i28.tinypic.com/2qvcim8.jpg

To be continued

Janus Marius
... And then during this twisting flip, Yoda hits Sidious' saber, but Sidious doesn't hit Yoda at all:

http://i29.tinypic.com/2j2f243.jpg

http://i30.tinypic.com/egsv2h.jpg

... And the swing which nearly connects is neatly caught by Yoda without any strain or effort:

http://i29.tinypic.com/2iqev6c.jpg

And then Sidious snarls in fruitless rage and swings his blade like it's a scythe before it cuts to the Obi versus Anakin fight.

There's the first part. I'll do the rest tonight so you all can review it entirely, but so far it's near conclusive. This is Sidious and Yoda on even ground, not Sidious in the center on flat ground and Yoda on the slippery sides, dancing like a bee. So it's pretty evident that Yoda would take a neutral setting and whup Sidious' ass.

Lord Knightfa11
aye. good job.

Elok Quintly
Interesting, if not overly analytical. Extolling Yoda for his defensive posturing is hardly providing veritable proof of the Grand Master controlling the fight.

Not to mention most canon sources describing the event--including the Databank--establish that Palpatine was simply too powerful for Yoda to defeat.

Darth Sexy
Yet one could say exactly the opposite, that Yoda was simple too powerful for Palpatine to defeat. The subjectivity goes both ways new guy.

Elok Quintly
But may I ask which canon source states such a thing?

Darth Sexy
It doesn't, which isn't the point. The point is that we all saw the same fight and there are different interpretations of it. George Lucas states they are equals. If Sidious is too powerful for Yoda to defeat, logic dictates that Yoda is also too powerful for Sidious to defeat, seeing as how they are equals. Canon sources aren't required for common sense.

At the same time, and after viewing the fight and Janus' scans and interpretations, I have to agree with him on the saber combat.

Gideon
...Continued from the above argument.



I want to address this right now, so we can save some time and a potential flame war. Janus, it is absolutely fruitless to treat their reactions differently. If Sidious looked like he was going to piss his pants, Yoda resembled someone getting shot with a nailgun. Pain and effort were plastered all over his face. It's ridiculous to undermine one and aggrandize the other. And this should nail the coffin shut that Yoda would "whup Sidious' ass" if the effort to repulse the Sith Lord is causing him intense physical pain.



The tide does not reverse entirely. The situation you're describing is more or less the situation that Harry Potter found himself in during the Goblet of Fire versus Lord Voldemort, where they found themselves engaged in the Priori Incantatem; Harry overpowered Voldemort by forcing the "beads of light" from his wand to the tip of Voldemort's. Such a thing did not happen here. In reality, Sidious was on the verge of overpowering Yoda, with the lightning coil just at Yoda's hands. All Yoda did was finally push the coil back in between them where it detonated. He repulsed the Sith Lord's offensive, but in no way did he shove it back to him as if it were a basketball.

Yoda did nothing during that entire duel that demonstrated superior Force strength. In fact, one could argue that Sidious demonstrated superiority during the pod hurling scene; Yoda struggled to stop the advance of one pod. And before you put gravity into the equation, consider this: Sidious had no trouble ripping three Senate pods from their moorings and tossing them above his head (in defiance of gravity) so as to gain momentum before flinging them at Yoda.

You're better off arguing lightsabers, because the best one could argue for Yoda in terms of Force strength is absolute parity. Superiority is totally out of the question.



The argument is in the semantics. The phrase "Sidious was too powerful to defeat" is not necessarily indicative that the Sith Lord was more powerful than Yoda. During the duel, Yoda could not have defeated Sidious. And indeed, his chances looked bleak. He was in enemy territory, facing an opponent whose offensive arsenal was well in excess of his own and who fought in a much more cunning manner, and -- worst yet -- he was without a weapon. The odds were most certainly against Yoda, and he knew he couldn't have won the fight. That's why he fled.



Janus's arguments are for the conclusion that Yoda > Sidious. You yourself said that Yoda = Sidious. Perhaps you could make up your mind?

IKP
Originally posted by Gideon
Yet when the camera resumes, Sidious has once again reclaimed the central position, logically concluding that he forced Yoda out of a position as well.

Which is a false conclusion. Yoda's not the type to remain in one position for too long, and the fact that he no longer remained in the central position in no way means that he was forced out of it. As can be seen in every single fight he appears in during the movies, his style places an extraordinary amount of focus onto kinetic energy, and he's shown to constantly be moving around his opponents, and attacking them from all angles. That Sidious was once again in that position would be better speculated as happening due to Yoda giving the position up, not being forced out of it.

Originally posted by Elok Quintly
Not to mention most canon sources describing the event--including the Databank--establish that Palpatine was simply too powerful for Yoda to defeat.

Only in reference to the overall engagement, and attempting to apply the same to the lightsaber segment of the battle is a Fallacy of Division.

Darth Sexy
Noobaris, you're an idiot.

Gideon
Very good, Nebaris. I can concede to this.


Edit: No, DS, he's not. From what I can see, he's right. There's no way I can conclude beyond a shadow of a doubt that my version of that particular scene is correct.

Darth Sexy
And to answer your question escape, I believe they are equals in respect to force abilities. In saber combat judging by the fight, it looks like Yoda would eventually wear out and defeat Sidious on even ground, which would explain Sidious' reluctance to continue the fight on even ground. In terms of Yoda fleeing, there were storm troopers everywhere and he lost his saber so there was no point. But lets be perfectly clear that even WITH Sidious holding the advantage in offense, at the end their force mastery is equal and Yoda is working with less. Now with gravity, You're comparing throwing 3 pods down to stopping one and throwing it back up. If Yoda was able to stop 3 pods going down he would undoubtedly be superior to Sidious in force mastery. The fact that he stopped one and then shot it back up at Sidious is as impressive as what Sidious did. Now I know youre going to say that Sidious was laughing when the pod was up at him and he was taking it as a joke, but I could make the argument that Sidious did not have the ability to stop a pod going up at him.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Gideon
Very good, Nebaris. I can concede to this.


Edit: No, DS, he's not. From what I can see, he's right. There's no way I can conclude beyond a shadow of a doubt that my version of that particular scene is correct.

I didnt' read what he said Escape, I'm calling him an idiot for coming back to the forum.

Gideon
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
And to answer your question escape, I believe they are equals in respect to force abilities. In saber combat judging by the fight, it looks like Yoda would eventually wear out and defeat Sidious on even ground, which would explain Sidious' reluctance to continue the fight on even ground.

Sidious was reluctant to fight at all, Darth Sexy. That he led the fight to the Rotunda is not conclusive nor necessarily indicative that he felt that Yoda would "eventually wear out and defeat ". You must put the circumstances into context so as to best explain the decisions of the characters; Sidious had just achieved galactic domination, a goal that had taken him decades to accomplish, and furthermore, there is no record of him ever being witness to Yoda's spectacular dueling ability (though he is aware of Yoda's reputation according to Labyrinth of Evil), so why would he conclude "I can't beat Yoda"?



If it is your goal to assert that Imperial personnel were going to interfere during the fight, you must prove it. As far as I am aware, the novelization, script, and movie all show Sidious calling for shocktroopers only after Yoda fled the Rotunda. So don't bother factoring them into the equation.



Working with less? Substantiate.



You did not read. I said that Sidious ripped three pods from their moorings and simultaneously threw them back over his head in direct defiance of gravity without any visible effort.



His stop-and-hurl session caused visible effort. Sidious hurled three pods far into the air, simultaneously, to gain momentum, without any effort.



Actually, you can't, since Sidious displayed strength enough to do a much more difficult task with, ultimately, three times the weight.

IKP
Originally posted by Gideon
Darth Sexy, I'm going to abandon my usual patience and quickly apply the "bullshit!" stamp to the quoted statement.
Originally posted by Gideon
Janus's arguments are for the conclusion that Yoda > Sidious. You yourself said that Yoda = Sidious. Perhaps you could make up your mind?
Originally posted by Gideon
You did not read.

You know you're a fool when the people you suck up to don't take you seriously.

Darth Sexy
I don't ever see myself sucking up to Escape. Then again, you know you're a fool when you've been banned 35+ times, you come back for more, and you still haven't learned how to debate.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Gideon
Sidious was reluctant to fight at all, Darth Sexy. That he led the fight to the Rotunda is not conclusive nor necessarily indicative that he felt that Yoda would "eventually wear out and defeat ". You must put the circumstances into context so as to best explain the decisions of the characters; Sidious had just achieved galactic domination, a goal that had taken him decades to accomplish, and furthermore, there is no record of him ever being witness to Yoda's spectacular dueling ability (though he is aware of Yoda's reputation according to Labyrinth of Evil), so why would he conclude "I can't beat Yoda"?
He obviously made 1 out of two conclusions.
1. I can't beat yoda
or
2. Yoda is powerful so I'm not GUARANTEED a win against him, so I will put as much distance as I can between myself and him.

Obviously Sidious was focused on #2 but after watching the fight several times, Sidious seems to exert more energy into the saber duel.




No, I'm asserting that there were stormtroopers around the building and that it would be counterproductive for Yoda to find his lightsaber, climb up the senate building, and resume fighting Sidious, with the odds stacked heavily against him.




Sith=Offensive force powers. Sidious=MORE than enough offensive force powers. Yoda's got what? A force push? TK? What offensive force maneuver is he going to use to defeat Sidious?




And Yoda stopped ONE at full speed and sent it back UP at full speed.




You claim it was more difficult. I can argue this point that unless Sidious threw them so high over his head that measured the same distance as between him and Yoda, Yoda's feat of stopping one at full speed and sending one back up at full speed is equally as impressive.

Elok Quintly
I don't mean to interject, but as far as I can tell Lucas only proclaimed that you have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor. Being able to compete with someone doesn't necessarily equate parallel abilities.


It wasn't full speed. The reflected pod traveled at a considerably slower pace.

Elite Hunter

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Elok Quintly
I don't mean to interject, but as far as I can tell Lucas only proclaimed that you have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor. Being able to compete with someone doesn't necessarily equate parallel abilities.
I believe it was in the ROTS commentary? You'd have to ask Escape as he knows where all the sources are but I remember GL explicitly stating that Yoda and Sidious were equals.




Oh please, every pod Sidious threw down traveled at the same speed. You'd have to prove that the one Yoda just HAPPENED to stop was traveling at a slower speed.

Gideon
And it's illogical to even make number one an option. Darth Sidious has not seen Master Yoda in actual combat, though he is aware of the Jedi's reputation as a swordsman and combatant. Whereas the Sith Lord put keen interest on the progression of Anakin Skywalker's capabilities, there is nothing to suggest that he applied the same interest to Yoda, and without that intimate knowledge of how the Grandmaster's prowess compares with his own, he could not reasonably conclude that Yoda's abilities exceeded his own.



Sidious seems to exert more energy during the duel? Prior to his duel with Yoda, Sidious has touched a lightsaber once for the first time in over thirteen years, whereas Yoda has had regular field combat and has presumably kept up his lightsaber training and ability, as he battled a very powerful Sith Lord and accomplished swordsman twice during the war. It's not a surprise that he's had to exert more energy.



For some odd reason, Darth Sexy, you seem to be attempting to reiterate my own points -- but throw in some pro-Yoda spiel in to work out the kinks. To say that it is "counterproductive" for Yoda to find his lightsaber and so on implies that Yoda "couldn't be bothered" or "there was no sense in it" -- there was. What was Yoda's goal? To kill Darth Sidious by any means necessary, and that he willingly walked into the heart of the newly-formed Empire to do so seems evident that he was willing to put his life in major jeopardy to do so. The only reason that Yoda would not have resumed the fight in that instance is because he came to the conclusion (as per the novelization's narrative) that he could not win. Though he put up a very considerable fight, he failed, and he left.



You were referring to the little showdown involving the lightning coil. In that instance, Yoda had sufficient Force techniques and all that he needed. It wasn't exactly a pitched struggle where Sidious is hurling Force drain, Force choke, Force storm, Force-whatever after him. It was one technique, and Yoda had an answer to it. In that particular instance, Yoda was hardly "underequipped".



Yoda struggled to do both, whereas Sidious was doing his Wicked Witch of the West impersonation. We're gauging effort, and Sidious pulled off an incredibly difficult feat, hurling three times the weight Yoda was working with in defiance with gravity, and displayed no visible effort.



No, you can't. Because Sidious hurled three times the weight in direct defiance with gravity without any visible effort.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Gideon
And it's illogical to even make number one an option. Darth Sidious has not seen Master Yoda in actual combat, though he is aware of the Jedi's reputation as a swordsman and combatant. Whereas the Sith Lord put keen interest on the progression of Anakin Skywalker's capabilities, there is nothing to suggest that he applied the same interest to Yoda, and without that intimate knowledge of how the Grandmaster's prowess compares with his own, he could not reasonably conclude that Yoda's abilities exceeded his own.
Oh I know, but he COULD conclude that Yoda was powerful enough that a victory wasn't guaranteed. I was just making a point that after watching the fight, it seemed that Sidious exerted more energy into the lightsaber fight than Yoda, and it would be logical for Sidious to try and bridge a gap between himself and Yoda.




But was this due to a lack of practice, or a lack of skill? Ahhhhhhh.




Ok now when you say he could not win, WHY could he not win? Was it because Sidious was too powerful, because he lost his lightsaber, because stormtroopers were near by, or all of the above? I never argued why Yoda fled, because he simply had to.




No I'm referring to Yoda's lack of offensive weapons. When I say underequipped it simply means he lacks the offensive arsenal to defeat Sidious, and instead must rely on "pushing back" Sidious' weapons.





Lets examine that for a moment. Sidious broke the pods, threw them over his head, and chucked them DOWN at Yoda. Now, yoda stops 1 pod at a fast speed with no visible effort. He shows deep concentration on throwing the pod back up, where Sidious couldn't stop it. Again, you are claiming Sidious' feat is more impressive while I'm claiming that Yoda's is equally impressive based on the circumstances, which involved stopping a pod chucked down at him and throwing it back up at Sidious with some incredible speed.

Gideon
That Darth Sidious was not confident of total victory was never in question, Darth Sexy, which is why I consider it pointless for you to waste time and space by stating as such.



Drawing heavily on the Force will not enhance or improve one's skill with a lightsaber. So, you could chalk it up to the fact that one is a seasoned combatant and the other is not.



He could not win because he was battered, tired, and unarmed. His opponent demonstrated higher reserves of energy, a wider range of offensive Force powers, and more cunning field tactics. The second he lost his lightsaber, the fight was essentially over for him, because Sidious has not been wounded by his own lightning. The only shot that Yoda had was if Sidious had been hurled over the pod himself, even though that's not necessarily fatal to a Sith Lord.



And consider the context you applied this in. Strength in the Force is not based on how many techniques one has mastered. That Yoda has lesser offensive techniques and still managed to rival Sidious's strength in the Force is not anything special.



I've emboldened and underlined the important parts.

a.) Darth Sidious ripped three Senate pods from their moorings and hurled them above his head -- in DIRECT DEFIANCE OF GRAVITY -- with speed that was similar to when Yoda hurled one back. He, unlike Yoda, demonstrated no visible effort doing so, despite handling three times the weight.

b.) You cannot claim that Sidious "couldn't stop it". He demonstrated superior strength featured in "part a", and gravity would be on his side. At that point, it was clear that he didn't take the fight seriously at all, laughing into his hand.

Darth Sexy
How so exactly? There are offensive techniques Yoda is unfamiliar with so how is it nothing special?




Ok was the distance equal to the distance between himself and Yoda? I think not. While it is impressive, it is just as impressive for Yoda to stop something coming at him at full speed, whereas Sidious did NOT.


Why can't I claim Sidious couldn't stop a senate pod coming at full speed? The fact that Sidious could move stationary pods, even against gravity, does not automatically mean Sidious can stop them coming at him at full speed. He was psychotic the entire fight, going from laughing to grinning, to laughing to grinning, so you cannot say he didn't take the fight seriously, otherwise he wouldn't have any desire to escape without fighting Yoda at all, or even distance himself from Yoda.

Gideon
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
How so exactly? There are offensive techniques Yoda is unfamiliar with so how is it nothing special?

Strength in the Force is not based on how many techniques that one has mastered. Yoda is not the "underdog" or at a disadvantage in Force strength just because Sidious has more techniques at his disposal.



Judging from what we've seen? The distances are similar, yes. Yoda and the Emperor weren't that far away from each other to begin with. Yoda threw a single pod up a slope in direct defiance with gravity. Sidious did the same thing, but with three times the weight and no visible effort. That is why it can be construed as more impressive.



Because the pod was climbing in defiance with gravity, simple physics are already working against it. That Sidious performed a similar feat with three times the accumulated weight would logically indicate that he can stop a slower, lighter target, especially when gravity is already working against that target.



Yes, I can. Sidious's cackling is a sign of amusement and his narcissism tends to lead him to the conclusion of superiority. Twice, he was in a position to kill Yoda -- once when he rendered the Jedi Master unconscious and once when Yoda was preoccupied with the Senate pod -- and both times he did not capitalize on his advantage because he was busy laughing his ass off. Clearly, it wasn't a wise move, but since he wasn't "going all out" at those points, you can't argue that he couldn't have stopped the pod.



He wasn't trying to do either at those two points, Darth Sexy. Now, I'm sorry, but you don't have a cogent point here.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Gideon
Strength in the Force is not based on how many techniques that one has mastered. Yoda is not the "underdog" or at a disadvantage in Force strength just because Sidious has more techniques at his disposal.
So Yoda's force mastery would have helped against something like Exar Kun's black lightning or Traya's force drain? Mastery of the force is one thing. Yoda and Sidious were equals in that aspect, however Yoda didn't have the necessary offensive weapons to defeat him.




I disagree that they were the same distance. Furthermore, Sidious took stationary objects and lifted them over his head, whereas Yoda stopped an oncoming pod and chucked it back up. We're back to square one.




It's not that "simple" because Sidious took stationary objects at his body level and threw them over his shoulder. Yoda took a pod (1) that was coming down at full speed, NOT stationary, and was able to stop it and send it back up.




Really? Sidious wasn't trying to escape the senate chamber when Yoda blocked the entrance? That sounds like somebody who doesn't want to fight because he isn't sure of the outcome. Sidious was shown laughing during the saber duel, then he was shown grimacing because of either Yoda's speed or his inability to defeat the Jedi Master. Again, his "signs of superiority" as you call them, are inconsistent with the actual fight seeing as how he first try to flee, and then when he couldn't win a saber duel, he put distance between himself and Yoda.

Gideon
Force mastery and Force strength are not the same thing, Darth Sexy. Pick one.



Sidious took several stationary objects, levitated them for several seconds, and kept the rest suspended as he threw one or two. He then hurled each of them in direct defiance of gravity. All of this with no visible effort. Yoda had to use the Force to spin the pod so it could gain momentum before he hurled it, and it still didn't display any drastic increase of speed.



As I have already explained, Sidious -- ultimately -- performed several tasks at once that required suspending, controlling, and then flinging in direct defiance of gravity objects three times the collective weight of the object Yoda was handling. All without visible effort.



If you're going to use sarcasm, don't apply it incorrectly. This is what I said:



...He wasn't trying to escape during the moments he was cackling like a lunatic.



Once again, no one said, implied, suggested, or hinted that he was sure he could win. This is the final time I will address this, so don't bother bringing it up again.



No one ever said that he was consistent or superior. I simply said that there were moments when he clearly believed Yoda wasn't a threat to him.

This is the very final time I will ask you to take your time to read. If you're not going to bother addressing my points correctly and cogently, don't post.

Darth Sexy
Call me crazy but Yoda's upswinging pod seemed to go the exact same speed as Sidious' downswinging ones. We are arguing in circles here because I'm claiming that sidious picked up his pods from a stationary position and threw them over his head, whereas Yoda stopped one at full speed and threw it back at Sidious.




And again you're comparing apples to oranges (as am I), since Sidious didn't have to stop a pod from below and throw it back up. Rather he did NOT stop the pod going at him and instead elected to jump down. Logic dictates that such a powerful force user should have been able to stop the pod even if he WAS laughing.





So Sidious is bipolar then? He's a threat, he's not a threat, then he's a threat he's not a threat. Either he was very stupid, very psychotic, or very cocky.

Darth Sexy
You know what, nevermind. You wore me down so I don't specifically what we're talking about anymore, nor do I have any motivation or passion to continue a debate on different interpretations for 2 even characters.. You win.

Gideon
I'm sure it's possible, given his dual-personalities and alter egos.



Seems to be the gist of it. Bare in mind that I'm not deducing this or coming to this conclusion myself. I'm just giving you what the movie screen shows us and it fits.



Well, since he conquered the galaxy, we can rule out the first. Given that he's the ultimate evil, the second most certainly applies, and since you've read Publius's work, you're aware of Palpatine's considerable arrogance and narcissism, so the third applies as well.

Lord Knightfa11
wow. darth sexy debated..... not well, but its still impressive smile

Janus Marius
Escape.



But this is clearly contradicted in the movie, which is according to Leland Chee, the highest source of canon and the source we should "look to first". Ergo, if the movies show Yoda as being superior, then by all rights Yoda is superior. All other canon must bow down to the movies' version of events and beings. That's SW canon. You cannot use a blanket statement by the in-universe third party NEC narrator, or some novelisation interpretation, or an off-hand remark made by some forum goons... in the end, you must look to the movies first and foremost.

I notice that in this place, members tend to only use the movies when it supports them and turn against them when the movies cease to support them.



Most of this has been conceded or disproven. As for a point-by-point ringside review, it's pending. Some of the scenes are very difficult to take screen captures of because the take is long and quick. I'll have it up shortly.



Sidious looks pained, unhappy, and overly-focused when he's fighting Yoda in lightsaber combat, but when he finally has some room and is up high, he's laughing. Likewise, when Yoda threw the pod back, he looked like he shit his pants, and then he jumped away. After that, he looked around all paranoid, and looked absolutely terrified when Yoda reversed his lightning.

All in all, Sidious doesn't have that smug, shit-eating grin that a winner has, or someone confident in their victory. Sidious looked noticeably more confident fighting Mace then he did Yoda. He didn't try to run from Mace, either.

Then there's the nagging fact that Sidious was unable to keep Yoda at bay during the fight or knock him out. Yoda KO'd himself like some demented Super Smash Bros. player in trying to defend against the lightning. Again, supposing for yourself that Sidious was the one controlling the fight, he would have come out better. Not saberless, grabbing a handrail and having leveled half of the damn senate room. As it was, Yoda was defeated by the one thing which could stop him- a fall from several stories.



Let's correct something here that you seem to be glossing over:

Yoda only looks pained when he's first confronted with a huge concentration of Sith lightning. And then, when he looks like he's about to bite the dust, he steels himself and pushes back with such force that Sidious looks downright afraid and pained. Yoda at no point looks afraid. Pained? Once, and briefly overcome. Afraid? No.

So yeah, put it into context, Escape. Please do so.



You seem to be smoking some serious dope, because your concept of "advantage" as well as "turning of the tide" are strangely incompatible with the real world.

Sidious poured on the Sith Lightning at Yoda from a distance of less than eight feet for a good 18-20 seconds before Yoda got the pissed look, Sidious then suddenly got the pained look (Before Yoda had even done anything other than stop grimacing), and then Yoda pushed forward and then there was the explosion. The actual push takes less than three seconds. Sidious simply could not resist. If this isn't a show of superior force mastery and power, nothing will suffice.



Except this is wrong. Firstly, Yoda did NOT struggle to stop the pod. He did it instantly.

Secondly...

The pods make humming sounds because their anti-grav systems are enabled when Sidious throws them!

Watch the DVD with the sound way up. You can hear it. Sidious is manipulating the anti-grav systems to throw them at Yoda. Yoda catches one in a heartbeat, spins it around (Notice there's no humming sound when Yoda throws it), and it comes flying at Sidious. Sidious does not even consider stopping it using the force.

QED, Escape.



Let's look at my position in full:

Lightsaber combat- Yoda on neutral ground held every advantage. He pushed Sidious who was barely able to keep up, and he was able to create openings in Sidious' defense while showing none of his own. Even on the pod, he was able to keep this same advantage

Force combat- Yoda demonstrates the ability to overcome Sidious' vaunted lightning, his most powerful attack in the movies. Likewise, he makes all TK pointless, as he dodges it or outright stops it dead and hurls it back. Sidious is revealed to be using the anti-grav systems and not his own force power, so it's apparent he can't just haul up three at a time using his own power. His Sith lightning, on which he relies quite a bit, is useless against Yoda.

Conclusion: In a neutral setting, no falls, Yoda wins, hands down. Yoda is superior.

Escape, feel free to argue this against all logic.

darthsith19
Yoda and Obi-Wan should have hijacked a star destroyer and flew it into the senate building... better yet, reprogrammed a droid to fly it into the senate building... then they wouldn't have died... and most of the people who did die would have deserved it. While the droid was flying it into the senate building, they could have been double-teaming Vader on Mustafar. Then, both Sith would have died. If Sidious somehow got out of the Senate building before the star destroyer hit it, well, the outcome would have still been better than what did happen.

Blax_Hydralisk
That would include killing like... thousands of people who did nothing wrong...

I see the sarcasm. But still.

darthsith19
No, I am serious! Who else would have died? The meeting was over, a lot of the Senators were probably gone. Most of the Senators were in favor of Sidious, and all of them were dead by ANH anyways. And far less deaths would have been caused than there were in Sidious's time as Emperor, so.

Janus Marius
Heh, good point.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
wow. darth sexy debated..... not well, but its still impressive smile

It's my first active participation in months and its a hell of a lot better than anything you've ever done. I don't have the passion for it nor do I care which is why I concede. Not to mention, Escape is a better debator and a more patient man than myself, with more sources at his disposal. Hats off to him, I have no hard feelings.

Gideon
Originally posted by Janus Marius
Escape.



You do seem to bring that up quite a bit anymore, but it doesn't particularly matter. The movie does not show us that Yoda could 'whup Sidious' ass on a neutral setting!!1oneone!!!", and you further must question why -- if that were the case -- does every single supplemental source interpret a much different perspective than your own? Statements aren't thrown out arbitrarily just to screw with the movies, Janus, and it's this lack of acceptance that prevents you from ever making your point. Ultimately, more sources support my argument, and your assertions that the movie clearly expresses yours isn't working.



Oh, come off it, Janus. People here (for the most part) attempt to make use of the movies, Expanded Universe, and all available sources to arrive at the most logical conclusion. You seem keen on disregarding everything but the movies at this point because everything else contradicts the delusion that Yoda > Sidious. We can go back and forth on this for eternity, Janus, it's your choice. But if you're going to, a little honesty would be nice, instead of the desperate behavior that results from someone who can't stand being proven wrong.



I conceded that Yoda may have not necessarily been forced out of his position. What you "glossed over" was the fact that Yoda had not breached Sidious's defenses or injured the Dark Lord. But, once again, I never expected you to play fair or be objective in this.



As I've told you before, you'd make an excellent spin doctor. Janus, the only combatant in that duel who expresses pain is Yoda. Sidious expresses exertion, effort, and fear -- but never pain -- and on the flipside, he also expresses immense amusement, something that Yoda never does. If we're going to base this whole argument on the expression that each is wearing, I could argue that Sidious was clearly superior to Yoda because he was laughing his ass off and having a jolly good time, not even capitalizing on the two instances where he could have killed Yoda.

As far as the pod being hurled back to him, all I see is a signature cock of the head, which signifies confusion and perplexity, and then he shakes his head in anger and dives away. No "shitting his pants" expression, though -- once again -- I don't expect you to be either fair nor objective during this. It would make it hard to cement your unsupported argument.



All in all, Sidious's expression changed quite frequently during the duel. He looked pissed, afraid, and amused throughout the exchange. As for your idea that Sidious looked noticeably more confident fighting Mace, I'd submit that he looked simply angrier. That was the first time that he had touched a lightsaber in decades, and perhaps the first time he ever crossed blades with a Jedi Master, and he clearly went ballistic on the assembled Jedi team -- so it would be logical to assume he would be giving into his awesome rage. Likewise, as I have already explained, Sidious was aware of Yoda's legendary skills as a duelist by the time of Labyrinth of Evil and was presumably aware of Count Dooku's duels with the Jedi Master that resulted in the Count's continuous defeat and retreat. And, combined with the fact that he was beaten by a technically lesser Jedi Master (even though this was due to certain dueling properties) and he had just achieved galactic domination, I'm sure he wouldn't be absolutely confident of superiority.



I must have missed the scene where Yoda sent Sidious for a nap, and I've watched the duel countless times. Would you mind pointing it out for me? Because, once again, I have my doubts that you're going to be fair or objective in this debate.



No, no, no! Gosh, Janus! The movie shows Palpatine hurl Force lightning at Yoda and the Jedi Master attempt to deflect the lightning -- too late! -- and is overpowered and blasted against the office wall and knocked unconscious. The only way he KO'd himself was because he failed to deflect the lightning.



I don't recall saying that Sidious did control the fight.



So controlling the fight would have resulted in the combatant coming out in a better position? You mean like Yoda?

Oh, and prove that he was without his lightsaber. The movie didn't show it, and since you'd like to disregard everything else, there's no need to bring up the screenplay which says he was disarmed. Of course, even if you did (which I expect you will), I could counter that by either bringing in the novelization or pointing out that since the precise disarming scene does not follow the movie, it is clearly non-canon, meaning the question of Sidious's lightsaber might never be answered.



Right. I can see how that could be construed as the "better position". I guess Yoda did control the fight...



I rarely gloss over anything. And when I do, I concede, as Nebaris has demonstrated.



And I was disputing this... how?



Several problems with this, I'm afraid.

a.) The lightning was still coiled and was still, at that point, closer to Yoda than Sidious. Add to the fact that this was a man who was nailed so hard with his own Force lightning that the act melted his face and, seconds later, he jumped to his feet without any strain or pain, I'm going to call out your notion that he "looked pained" and demand that you prove it.

b.) Of course Sidious looks afraid. That was never in question. What was in question was that you downplay the pain Yoda appeared to be in and concentrate solely on Sidious's expression of fear -- which I never disputed or questioned. Yoda looked to be in extreme pain, not like he was agitated with a Force splinter or something. Try to keep it in context.



Gee whiz, if only I said that he looked afraid. Did I, Janus? Or are you going to continue to put words in my mouth and address unnecessary points?



Extreme pain and overcome.



Redundant? Yes. Unnecessary? Definitely.



Once again, the only one here exposed to be completely biased and subjective here is you. I don't deny, gloss over, or take things out of context unless I am proving a point in a debate to those who do. Like yourself.

Gideon
As you'll now demonstrate, I'm sure.



Sidious poured on the Sith Lightning that Yoda was blocking. Yoda pushed forward, and the lightning coil moved away from his hands and it went slightly closer to Sidious, where it stopped and detonated. I don't know what the hell you're trying to insinuate here, but Yoda didn't overpower Sidious. He pushed the coil of lightning a few inches away from his hands. That's it. It's not like there was a lightning coil in between them when Sidious originally hurled the lightning and he was trying to push it in Yoda's direction and failed. Then he would have been overpowered. But that's not what happened.

So, you're right, this is totally insufficient.



He struggled to keep it stop it, keep it stable, and send it back.



Desperation is sinking in, I see. Let's shut this theory down right now.

a.) I listened to the scene in question multiple times with the volume up. There is no humming sound emitted by the pods. There is only a whooshing sound that clearly comes from the fact that they are being hurled through the air at high velocities. If it is your assertion that this is the anti-grav systems in place, you must prove it. Because this isn't cutting it.

b.) When Sidious hurls the final pod at Yoda, there is a chugging noise which might be what you're referring to. However, the noise is still present when Yoda stops the pod, stabilizes it, and hurls it back. In fact, it even gets louder.

c.) Prove that it was the anti-grav systems and not a noise emitted by an object traveling downward at a high velocity or some sonical registry of the Force. Furthermore, even if you do, the noise is still there and even louder when Yoda stops the pod.



Aside from the amusement I get that you're so desperate as to base this entire argument on a sound, I've already dismantled it. At best, Janus, you'll gain no ground. At worst, you'll lose even more, and my friend, you don't have that much to lose. Don't waste it.



Being a master combatant for eight centuries, explain to me why he didn't capitalize on these "openings", Janus.



a.) You've yet to prove that Yoda can "overcome" Sidious's lightning.

b.) You've yet to prove that Yoda makes all telekinesis pointless.

c.) You've yet to prove that Sidious was using the anti-gravity systems.

d.) As for his Sith lightning being useless, you "glossed over" that he rendered Yoda unconscious with it during the opening salvo.

QED, Janus.



This would hold weight if you'd bothered to prove any of it.



This would be the same logic that you use at EoD, right? That would explain the distinct lack of substance. Really, Janus, you have no idea how amused I am. You've come off desperate before, but never to this great length. I enjoyed this and I can't wait for your rebuttal.

skywalker833
yoda, barely

skywalker833
Yoda barely beats sidious because he is too quick, itd be really close

Lord Knightfa11
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
It's my first active participation in months and its a hell of a lot better than anything you've ever done. I don't have the passion for it nor do I care which is why I concede. Not to mention, Escape is a better debator and a more patient man than myself, with more sources at his disposal. Hats off to him, I have no hard feelings.

there is no passion... there is peace

jk bro.

that was a complement, not an insult.

Janus Marius
And now, ladies and gentlemen, Escape-speak for Dummies!



Translation: I refuse to accept the movie version of events even though it is the highest canon there is because it does not fit my argument and my fanboyism.



Translation: I refuse again to accept the movie version of events because several less-canon sources support my fanboyism. I will now accuse you of being unable to accept reason. Kettle. Pot. Black.



Translation: I made a small concession which reason and the majority demanded, but then I'll counter it by saying you have not proved your side. Ultimately, when Yoda has the upper hand during the entire engagement and is defeated mostly by chance not by his opponent, I will still say that it was equal to avoid saying Yoda > Sidious, because I am a fanboy.



Translation: Somehow, despite looking horrified and wailing, Sidious was never in pain whatsoever, but Yoda was briefly, therefore Yoda must be weaker. I'm going to make a huge big deal about this particular point and gloss over the truly important stuff like force mastery and lightsabery mastery, both of which would affect this versus match, whereas taunts, leers, and grimaces mean nothing. I will also make a jab at you as being some sort of new-age Sophist because at this point insulting you and trying to poison the well is all I can do when I'm losing the argument this badly.



Translation: You cannot possibly be objective, even though I'm the one arguing against all reason in favor of my favorite character. You, on the other hand, are not a Yoda fanboy, but somehow you must not be "objective" enough for this debate.

http://i27.tinypic.com/313qe4w.jpg

Above: Official Pants-Shitting Face. Noticeably different from Shit-Eating Grin Face.



Translation: Yoda grimaces or doesn't laugh and he's inferior. Sidious changes facial expressions from rage, fear, frustration, pain, confusion, eating shit type grin, and he is superior or at the very least equal. Let's just ignore that Sidious wails in pain when Yoda starts to really repel his Sith Lightning.




Translation: You've noted that Sidious didn't have the upper hand at all during the engagement and didn't himself put Yoda down. Reversing thrusters, captain! Wait, wait! Yoda didn't do the same thing, even though he was clearly superior during the entire battle! Quick, the argument's losing ballast, captain! Toss reason overboard! If we get rid of enough, this bullshit will help us float the argument! Another "fair and balanced" type reference against the opposition, who has done more than just sling opinions and insults this entire debate!



Translation: I'm going to skew the evident reality of the battle with my own biased opinion because I'm losing and the USS Bullshit is sinking to the superior firepower of USS Anti-Fanboy. So now I'm asserting that Yoda was -too late- and that he was defeated by a superior show of Sith Lightning, despite the fact that Sidious was unable to overcome or destroy Yoda even at a superior advantage with said attack and only survived the same fate as Yoda because he had a handrail to grab on to.



Translation: You said Yoda controlled the fight. I said he didn't. But somehow, I didn't say Sidious controlled the fight, despite the fact that I've said repeatedly that Sidious was his equal, yet was winning and superior in many ways and Yoda grimaced like he hadn't had his daily prunes so somehow he's losing. I also hate on people for being contradictory like DS, but I do the same damn thing when it suits me.



Translation: Occam's Razor be damned, if Sidious is suddenly without his saber in the next scene and he never ever uses it even when it could be advantageous to himself, you must be the liar by asserting it is gone and likely knocked away or destroyed. Also, things not shown on seen but implied by context must somehow be non-canon. So strictly speaking, according to my fanboy type logic, Anakin and Obi-Wan never shit or bath. If anyone asserted that they did, it is non-canon.

Janus Marius
Translation: Captain, misdirection thrusters! Let's get this ship back on tack! Let's reference the exception as the rule and call it reasonable. Despite you proving conclusively that Yoda was outpacing Sidious in lightsaber combat with frame-by-frame scans and commentary, despite providing a video for all to see with every bleeding second of the fight in question, and despite new evidence arising which totally sinks all my assertions, I will continue to nitpick and misdirect until eventually you lose sight of your valid points.



Translation: I've conceded a minor detail once, and turned around and contradicted it in a debate with you because it endangers the tatters of what little argument I can support. Therefore, the exception must be the rule. Stop hatin', dawg.



Translation: I'll play the good guy and ignore all the times I did dispute this, because it makes you look bad when I pretend to have concessions. Exception becomes the rule, FTW.



Translation: The lightning, which Sidious shot away from himself at Yoda who was on a ledge with no real traction from about six to eight feet away, is somehow "farther from Sidious" and therefore proves the latter's superiority in Force mastery, despite the fact that he initiated the attack and by all rights it should always be farther away from him initially. I'll gloss over the fact that Yoda defended this assault with one hand after he dropped his saber.

http://i29.tinypic.com/2hn85c7.jpg

Above: The massive distance difference in the endgame of the Sith Lightning DBZ power battle which conclusively demonstrates SIdious' uberness.

Additionally, Sidious looking pained and panicked before Yoda even does anything is overlooked, because I said so.

http://i28.tinypic.com/2q8n3nk.jpg

Above: The look on Escape's face when he realizes he's hopeless and cannot debate objectively. Also; Sidious' non-pained and panicked face when Yoda just gives him a stern look during the sith lightning DBZ battle.



Translation: Yoda looked pained for all of ten seconds during a five minute combat, because he was absorbing lightning which melted Sidious' face and made Luke Skywalker twitch with agony with his bare hands. Let's just gloss over that.



Translation: I made a big point on Yoda looking pained, but suddenly I'm attacking you for addressing supposedly unnecessary points.



Translation: I ran this sentence through the Escape fanboy machine, and it came out looking more in favor of Sidious. You should see what it does with tax returns.



Translation: You made a point that Yoda did not look afraid at all during the combat, but Sidious did. I say it's unnecessary because I want to draw attention away from your entire argument, especially the parts which totally sink my bullshit ship of an argument. I love to nitpick arguments to the point in which the original intent and validity is obscured by my bullshit. I am a fanboy.



Translation: You don't agree with my skewed and biased view of things, therefore you are not objective and must be biased somehow. Because I said so.



Translation: Quoted and wittily replied to, when really I should be putting some decent sources, evidence, and reason into the argument itself. I am secretly jealous of you and I hate you a la Anakin, so I'm going to writh around on the burning sand and spit at your arguments when I should instead focus on bettering myself and not being a fanboy for a scrawny, wrinkled old British man.



Translation: Because Yoda didn't push the lightning another six inches (At which point it would have been in Sidious' lap) he didn't overpower Sidious, despite the clear and evident fact that Yoda caught the lightning with his bare hands on the pod's ledge, pushed back after twenty seconds with a push forward that Sidious could not resist. Of course, because my entire reputation on these forums is wrapped up in my rabid defense of my favorite character, your view of events must be skewed only because they do not make Sidious look better and more powerful. You can never convince me because I have abandoned reason and I make out with my Sidious full-body pillow every night.



Translation: Yoda stopped the pod instantly without any effort and send it back after winding it up like a top while Sidious sat there chewing on his hand.

http://i25.tinypic.com/2ext43o.jpg

Above: Yoda having a difficult time stopping the pod in under a second.



Translation: I assert that there are no humming sounds, despite the fact that it's clearly there in the DVD version of the movie- a clear every half-second whirling sound like some sort of 1940's UFO sound effect. I'm going to deny this one until I die, because it puts the final nail in the coffin of Sidious' superiority. You must prove that the pods have anti-grav, despite the fact that they routinely float around the senate chamber during the prequels.



Translation: I'm now subtlely admitting that there are noises, but apparently they only happen when Yoda uses the force to throw pods, despite the fact that when Yoda throws the pod, it makes a telltale whooshing sound as if it's cutting through the air, but it specifically does not make the UFO humming sound which all of Sidious' pods do. God, I am so desperate.



Translation: I try and put your new astute observation in doubt by asking you for burden of proof, when any idiot who owns the DVD and a working pair of ears can deduce the same thing, assuming they are not rabid fanboys. Also, Yoda did it more/only/worse, cuz it makes Sidious look better. Never mind that Yoda rotated the pod using the Force instead of using the anti-grav systems, hence no humming on the way up.



Translation: I'm hopeless and now I must insult you personally because it's all I have left. I can't defend Sidious any more because you've destroyed my baseless assertions using facts, reason, and even source evidence by way of videos and scans. I've done nothing but piss and moan and dispute you out of principle because I love Sidious more than my parents.

Janus Marius
Translation: Yoda is really good, but because he didn't kill Sidious and create a George Lucas paradox and totally make the OT obsolete, he must somehow not be good enough to have those same openings. I rule.



Translation: I claim that all your arguments are unsound and not valid without submitting any definite proof of reason of my own. I win!



Translation: You make a good argument, I say no to all of it because I love Sidious. I win!



Translation: I'll jab at your forum which I willingly left because I found out I couldn't bash regulars and administrators and not get a simple warning. I'm going to act amused because it makes me seem more reasonable and mature if I do that, instead of kneeling and begging the forum for forgiveness from my rabid fanboyism.

http://i32.tinypic.com/9j1wzt.jpg

Above: Escape's fanboyism and argument being blown away.

Gideon
I was wondering why I didn't get a timely response from you, Janus, and I now see why: you spent all of this time cooking up a deliciously hilarious series of posts and designing a new signature. I don't know if I can declare that as time well spent, however, because if you exclude the humor, it doesn't really offer anything new. You spent all this time creating funny, mocking translations of the points that I had made, and yet all the while, you refuse to continue the debate. On a personal note, I am honored that I, a mere sixteen-year-old boy, have managed to have such a profound effect on your disposition. You attack me, call me a "fanboy", and attempt to embarrass me? All the while, you must remember that you're the founder of a dying, ignored forum where some of your oldest internet friends secretly think you're remarkably biased, obtuse, and otherwise inept as an administrator. Likewise, every time you've come back to KMC, paying your visits, you always whine and complain why I think the way I do and that I never "offer you sources!!!oneone!11!" -- and yet, when I do this and offer to discuss it, as well as question you about your obsession with Marka Ragnos via PM -- you ignore it.

Really, Janus, you'd think that a twenty-something-year-old man wouldn't be so easily pushed and would have a bit more maturity than a teenaged "fanboy". But as I've told you before, just when I think you've hit rock bottom, you manage to fall to a lower place.

Bravo, Janus. Bravo.

Now, perhaps when you've calmed down and stop getting your underwear in a knot over an online debate, you'd like to continue? I'm waiting and willing.

And nice work on the posts. Absolutely hilarious.

Lord Darkstar
Alright, I have not posted here in forever but this above post annoyed me first

Agreed, nice work Janus


Second

This is completely out of line and hardly good debating. Instead of attacking an arguement, you attack the person, a poor show and it makes me question your entire arguement if that is what you have to rely on. Also, I would hardly call EoD a dying, ignored forum, there are several new members within the last few weeks, some new RPs being designed, many new posts and discussions taking place. That it hardly the description of a dying forum. Besides, how would you know anything about EoD unless you visit, in which case I wonder why you would go to a dying forum unles you are seeking acceptance of the members, enjoy the discussions, or go merely to pick small items out to bash in order to increase your e-peen. Kudos mate

As for some of his 'oldest internet friends secretly think you're remarkably biased, obtuse, and otherwise inept as an administrator' that begs for proof since anyone can post something without backing it up. WIthout proof that holds the same level of accuracy as an accusation that you are secretly a Ragnos fanboy.


tl;dr version, STFU and provide proof
http://www.users.on.net/~mackerill/Avatars/stop-posting.gif

Gideon
Originally posted by Lord Darkstar
Alright, I have not posted here in forever but this above post annoyed me first

Did the Batsignal go up at EoD? Are all the Antedivulians coming out of the woodwork to unite and smite the wicked Gideon? How melodramatic.



'Nice work' doesn't begin to cover it. They were truly great examples of comedy, which makes Janus's recent slurs (calling Darth Sexy my "girlfriend"wink all the more embarrassing. And the logic he uses provides a bit of unintentional humor, as well. When asked why Yoda didn't exploit the supposed gaping holes in Sidious's defense, Janus replies with "LOL so Yoda should haff killed Sidz and made the OT obsolete?!!oneon!!@". Adorable.



I'll tell you what: I'll get in touch with the few individuals who made those comments, and ask if I can give you their names. That they still visit those forums to interact with the rest of you, however, might prevent that from happening. Wouldn't the wrath of a petty dictator and those who love him bring that to a grinding halt?

So, I appreciate it, Darkstar. But the rude behavior I now demonstrate to yourself, IKC, and (in your eyes) Janus, has always been that which they have dealt with me. Don't bother whining to me on their behalf, casting them as saints.

Lord Darkstar
The batsignal? Nah don't over estimate yourself, if we were to bring all the Antediluvian's out this forum would likely crash from the sheer epic win we eminate. Besides, we don't need numbers when we have logic and facts on our side.



Sure you get in touch with those individuals, just remember bots and people with <10 posts do not count. As for calling Janus a petty dictator, I would disagree with that, at some time or another everyone at EoD, myself included, has disagreed with the others. The difference is that we disagree in a respectful manner, using logic and facts to support ourselves. We do not ban or warn for no reason and opposing beliefs can be expressed, hardly the actions of a dicator.

Gideon
Originally posted by Lord Darkstar
The batsignal? Nah don't over estimate yourself, if we were to bring all the Antediluvian's out this forum would likely crash from the sheer epic win we eminate. Besides, we don't need numbers when we have logic and facts on our side.

Is that so? Well, from the looks of things, you're going to need the numbers.



I think you'd be surprised at some of the names. And, please, I've been there and I've seen what you all do to one another. Lying and claiming that what IKC and people like him do is "respectful" doesn't exactly help your fragile credibility, Darkstar. If you're going to discuss this shit with me, don't try to sugarcoat the things that they do. Likewise, ****ing with Darth Sexy's usertitle to say "Escape's girlfriend", having threads dedicated to Lightsnake and him "getting owned", doesn't exactly inspire sentiments of an objective, fair administrator.

Try. Again.

I have time for about one more response, to please get to stepping.

Lord Darkstar
Considering you have ignored Janus' posts as to why Yoda wins and used faulty logic and facts to try and get your point across, I don't think so. However, even that failed and you resorted to attacking the person himself and the forum he made, the next stage in fanboyism and defeating arguements it to resort to either a) lolz or b) okay thats enough, I'm done here, the facts speak for themselves based on past experience with fanboyzrus I'm guessing it will take another 2 pages of posts *sigh*


Considering you have yet to post names I have nothing to be surprised at
And again if you have been there, that begs the question of why considering you seem to hold some sort of grudge against us. And considering LS is still hanging around EoD, things aren't quite as bad as you say.


http://inorpo-a.mirror.waffleimages.com/files/89/898140f4fc1c44ef61701355729660f21bd64543.jpg

^^ your argument

Gideon
Originally posted by Lord Darkstar
Considering you have ignored Janus' posts as to why Yoda wins and used faulty logic and facts to try and get your point across, I don't think so. However, even that failed and you resorted to attacking the person himself and the forum he made, the next stage in fanboyism and defeating arguements it to resort to either a) lolz or b) okay thats enough, I'm done here, the facts speak for themselves based on past experience with fanboyzrus I'm guessing it will take another 2 pages of posts *sigh*

The comical diatribe Janus has posted were supposed 'translations' of my points; to respond would mean to go back and restate everything. That's counterproductive. If he would like to continue the argument, as I said, I am more than willing to do so. Pointing out that others find him to be anything but a competent administrator isn't a personal attack. At least, not on my end. I've vouched for Janus's intellect and ability on more than one occasion; he's brilliant. If you would please post examples of when I have said otherwise, now would be the time.





Some people have these new inventions that we call "lives". Ergo, they are not at my beck and call 24/7. You should try to pick one of these things up.



I have been there. As far as a grudge is concerned, I'm not the one crawling back to my forums and asking others for some help bashing the wicked Gideon (like you). I'm not the only lying to the public and saying that Antedivulians "respectfully disagree" with one another. I'm not the one coming out of the woodwork to argue against a person with whom I have had supremely limited interaction with.

Who holds the grudge here?



Did I say that the entire place is oppressive? No. But thanks for trying to dodge around that point and sugarcoat it. What are you, EoD's fairy godmother? You want to discuss this with me or "bash" me, you go right ahead. But putting a spin on shit, outright lying, and then scrambling back trying to cover your ass once you've been exposed is not the way to do it. I suppose it's too difficult for you to actually be honest, so eager are you to avenge Janus's noble name?

Get over yourself. And while you're at it, you might want to ask for some more help from your e-buddies. Whatever advice they're giving you isn't working.

I'll be back later to resume this, assuming you're still keen on it.

Lord Darkstar
And we have entered the bashing the person stage again. Please try something new, oh and for future reference, you are debating in an online forum, bashing someone else doing the same about 'real life 1!!!1' might not be the best thing to do. After all the interwebz iz seri0uz businez!1!
Also,
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u263/Dango-Fetish/You_need_a_girl.jpg



As for crawling back to the other forums asking for help... WTF I have not done that and I haven't seen anyone else here posting in favor of this, its just me. SO unless you happen to be seeing my posts as done by different people here, I'm afraid I don't know what you are talking about.

As for this:

Actually you did say Janus was a 'petty dictator' one would assume that you were calling the place oppresive, now you seem not to think that. Which one is it?
As for being honest, what are you talking about man? You need to pass whatever it is you're smoking because I sure don't know what you're talking about.

http://media.damnfunnypictures.com/dfp/inspired_08.jpg

Darth Sexy
All the clowns are coming out today.

Gideon
This... is it?

Good ol' Darkstar. Count on him to tackle a situation and make it even worse. I give you a remarkable courtesy of five hours to come up with either a reasoned argument or a hilarious rebuttal, and you waste all that time on an unremarkable diatribe that only demonstrates your lack of skill with the quote function? This is a profound disappointment, in my eyes, as my expectations were higher than this.



If I may respond with a statement, made by you, on EoD:



We may now make three observations from this:

1.) You clearly have no room to lecture anyone about bashing, and yet you do, ergo, you're a hypocrite (much like some other friends of yours).

2.) You asked for help, an indication that you're not equipped enough to "take me on" all by your lonesome.

3.) Funny pictures, like witty remarks, are in some serious short supply at EoD.





Denial is an ugly, ugly thing.



I suppose it was too much to think that you might put two and two together to get four. I'll translate: even if Janus is a petty dictator, that does not make the entire place oppressive and unappealing. He is but one of the administrators (though I am by no means suggesting that Illustrious is superior to him) and one of the many (but few in comparison to other forums) people who congregate there. People have struck friendships and bonds and, even in the face of a lackluster administration, continue to remain. President Bush is the most disliked and hated president in United States history; the whole population isn't packing up and leaving because of it, are they? No. A little common sense would be nice (odd to use 'Bush' and 'common sense' in a paragraph together).



LOL. I'm tempted to profile this. "As for being honest... I sure don't know what you're talking about" is pure, genuine brilliance. I'm very sure that it's not a concept you're familiar with, but I understand that dictionaries have been made online now. Googling a word can lead you to its definition. Who knew? Anyways, once you've learned the definition, I'll point out that you claimed that Antedivulians disagree in a "respectful manner". That is, perhaps, the most tainted ****ing lie I've ever seen. You haven't been respectful. Neither has IKC. Neither has Janus. The only respectful one who has posted as of late is Faunus. If you're going to continue, don't bother lying, otherwise I think it's time for the amateur Antedivulian-wannabes to head back to EoD and send out the big guns if you're hellbent on carrying on this argument.

Lord Darkstar
You said that you were not making personal attacks and asked for evidence of where you have said otherwise. I know that in some places you have praised Janus, yet in other cases you described him as:
-a the founder of a dying, ignored forum
-a petty dictator
-someone that has hit rock bottom, and then managed to fall to a lower place

I consider all of those personal attacks, hence the use of the quote bottom to show your own words, as you asked for.



As for the thing about me asking for help, I've already addressed this in a PM but I'll say it again:
I don't consider asking people to search for pictures the same as helping. Wait, before you write off an angry reply, know that I would consider help something more along the lines of giving me lines to say, helping me formulate an arguement etc. I consider pictures simply something funny to add to a post, not the argument of a post which is why I said that. You may view it differently, but that is my view on it.


As to your comment about Janus being petty but the place not oppresive, I consider that a stretch because like you said, he is an admin and plays a huge role in running the place. If he ran it as a dictator, then opposing view would be supressed, which I do not believe happens



As for the comment about being honest, okay that really came out wrong embarrasment I can see why you laughed at that, looking back I would as well. What I meant by that is that while what you posted earlier about :

" ****ing with Darth Sexy's usertitle to say "Escape's girlfriend", having threads dedicated to Lightsnake and him "getting owned", doesn't exactly inspire sentiments of an objective, fair administrator."

First, for quite a while I was away from EoD so I am unfamiliar with the story about Darth Sexy. As for the threads about 'bashing people', yeah I can see at first blush that it does not inspire thoughts of an objective person, but honestly it was pointing out flaws in logic that Janus saw and rebuttles that showcase a persons skills or cause laughs. They are not intended to be personal assualts, which is why I posted that I had no idea what you were talking about, we view it differently.


Sorry for escalating this and I hope we can continue in a calm manner

Lord Darkstar
Alright, considering you have mentioned that you did respond to Janus' post and all he did was translate it, I'll have a go at it:



Proof that these sources back you up. Also, the movies, which Janus did an analysis of, seem to disagree with that and the movies trump all other canon.



You can bring in the EU all you want but in the case when the movies can be directly analyzed to provide an answer to the question, they trump everything else. Unless you can analyze the lightsaber fight and refute Janus' arguments, the movies seem to indicate that Yoda > Sidious


Alright, so you will not concede that Yoda never breached Sidous' defenses, but what about the screenshots that Janus posted on page three of this thread. In there it shows that Yoda is clearly in control of the lightsaber fight, with Sidious loosing that. Also, we run into the problem of what happened to Sidious' lightsaber. Considering it would have been useful to him in the Senate battle, why was it never used? We know Yoda had his and was using it, considering the best (aka only real) defense against a lightsaber is another lightsaber, where is Sidious'? The conclusion from this is that at some point, Yoda knocked away Sidious' blade and Sid was forced to flee, resorted to chucking pods. The alternative is that Sid was an idiot who resorted to putting away his weapon in a battle



While Yoda may never laugh during the battle, it is hardly an indication of how he feels the battle is going, he is the jedi master, it is hardly in keeping with his personality to laugh in a battle. And while you may say that Yoda was the only person to show pain during the battle, it is also quite clear that Sid was being pushed back during the force lightning bit on the pod and the longer it went on, the more scared he seemed to become.

We also see at the very beginning of the battle, Sid says that he has been looking forward to this for a very long time, Yoda then pushes him across the room onto his head and the next thing we know, Sid is trying to flee, perhaps he realized that he was outmatched?

As for the thing about Sid simply cocking his head, shaking his head and diving out of the way of the pod, that is quite the stretch. Sid was laughing at Yoda before, then sees the pod flying towards him, stares for a second and leaps out of the way. When in the pod, he is looking around, unsure of where Yoda was and the expression on his face is one of confusion and I would say a hint of fear. Comments about an unsupported argument are ironic to say the least when you have direct movie screenshots countering your claims.

As for Sid's facial expression changing often throughout the fight, yeah they did change, and as the fight wore on, the less secure he seemed to get.


Attempt to deflect the lightning? Is that why he kept his hands on his staff? He was caught off guard, sure a foolish thing to happen, but then we see a few seconds later Sid getting blasted across the room and landing on his head, the first few seconds were anomolies with both sides displaying a clear and noticable advantage over the other, which odd as it seems, appears to come from surprise about the others skills and being off guard.



Excellent, so Sid's lightsaber disappearing is non canon because it contradicts the movie, however the screenshots from said movie that show Yoda winning are invalid due to outside sources that say differently and the outside sources do not directly contradict the movie. Glad we clarified that. Also, if Sid still had his lightsaber, why was it not used in the Senate room, did it run out of energy or was starting to give him a blister and he decied to put it away?

As for the pod, I would argue that Sid was actually blasted farther away than Yoda. If you view the screenshots posted by Janus on page five, we see that Yoda was right on the edge of the pod, with Sid around 1-2 feet away from him, on the same edge of the pod. When the exposion happens, Yoda is pushed back, but enough so that he still grabs onto the edge of the pod by a few inches. Sid on the other hand is blasted to the complete other edge of the pod so that he is holding on to a bit more than Yoda, but was pushed back considerably farther. Since Yoda is far lighter and smaller than Sid, why was Sid pushed farther?


a) Please view the movie where Yoda blocks the lightning

b) Please see the point where Yoda halts a pod that was flung at him and tosses it back. Sid did not even attempt to stop said pod, why?

c) I haven't listened to the movie to hear the anti-grav so I'm ignoring this

d) And if the lightning at the beginning knocked Yoda out and therefore proves that lightning > Yoda, then in the same vein the push that Yoda used that blew Sid across the room proves that push > Sidious, excellent

Gideon
The official databank, the New Essential Chronology, and the Ultimate Visual Guide all unanimously contradict the idea that Yoda was kicking Sidious's ass. As I've told Janus, these statements and interpretations are not thrown out arbitrarily; that they are not eliminated or retconned by subsequent material seems likely that LFL does not feel that the statements provided are contradicting the movies.



Essentially, all that Janus has indicated is that Yoda was outpacing Sidious through their lightsaber duel. When the point was posed to him that Yoda was obviously unable to exploit the openings in Sidious's defense, Janus responded with the out-of-universe, sarcastic explanation that it was because the OT could not be rendered obsolete. That does not cut it. Essentially, if we are to take this analysis as fact, Yoda was still unable to break through Sidious's defense.



Controlling the fight? Yoda was making all the moves, true, but was gaining absolutely no ground for it. The fight was not moving anywhere, and all Sidious had to do was remain in the center. It's not as though he was herding Sidious down dark corridors and hallways. Once again, to assert that Yoda would "kick Sidious' ass on even ground" is baseless because Janus cannot provide a cogent explanation for why Yoda was unable to breach Sidious's defense. The best that he can prove is that Yoda is a hair's width superior in lightsaber department over a Sith Lord who hasn't practiced with one in over thirteen years.



Janus offered this explanation. And, to you, I pose the question: how would it have been of further use? Outside of close quarters combat, Sidious has no need for a lightsaber.



There is no canon explanation. I do not exclude the possibility that he was disarmed, but it cannot be proven. It is just as likely that he put it away and opted for long-ranged assault.



That conclusion is only valid if either Yoda turned into a completely inept combatant and allowed Sidious to abandon the Chancellor's podium and reach a vast distance away or Sidious, unarmed, managed to overpower and evade a still fully armed Yoda in close quarters. The former is completely out of the question and the latter would only serve to glorify Sidious.



Actually, no, there is no proof for that. Sidious would be an idiot if he put the lightsaber away during a lightsaber duel, which is not what I have suggested. Sidious would be a self-preserving realist to put his lightsaber away if he came to the conclusion that it was getting him nowhere, and opt for a method of combat that requires putting as much distance from Yoda as humanly possible.



Darkstar, this is exactly what I'm talking about. My quoted statements clearly address that Sidious "was afraid". That Janus and yourself seem to be keen on reiterating points that I have acknowledged and pointed out on my own accord is absurd. That is why I accuse him of bias. It's not like I'm trying to hide the fact that Sidious was frightened during parts of the duel; so why waste precious time going back over it? Yoda was the only one in the duel to demonstrate extreme pain. That was the point Janus neglected to acknowledge and it was the point I was trying to make.



This is, perhaps, even more absurd. Put things into context, please. First, both Sidious and Yoda went into that fight more than a shade overconfident. Sidious blasts Yoda across the room -- Yoda's futile attempt to block the lightning was overpowered (and one could make a point of the look of "oh shit!" that crossed his own face) -- and knocked unconscious. Rather lackluster for the Grandmaster of the Jedi Order, and given Sidious's malignant narcissism and arrogance, it is no surprise that he found the situation amusing. Likewise, when Yoda gave a forceful retaliation, it is then no surprise that Sidious began to question the logistics of a fight. He was facing his titular equal, a Jedi whose sole ambition in life was to end his, and after years of plotting, it would make sense for a Sith (someone bent on self preservation) to look for an escape. So, concluding, it is ridiculous that Sidious magically came to the conclusion that "I am outmatched!!" based on an opening salvo from which he actually dealt the better hand; Yoda knocked Sidious over his desk. Sidious knocked Yoda out.



I'm going to extend you a courtesy of patience. If you'd like to keep this up, I would suggest not being needlessly sarcastic. You see, you say it yourself: "a hint of fear". Janus said "shitting his pants". There is an ocean of a difference between the two, and when you get sarcastic like this, you leave yourself open to a brutal retaliation. In short: you're not helping his point.



He seemed to fluctuate quite often, the likely result of being an unstable man.



Reminds me of the time Nai Fohl claimed "Oh, he was trying to cover his eyes!" -- Yoda clearly lifted his hands up as the lightning encroached upon him. Why? To cover his eyes or to try to block it. Which one seems more logical to you?

Gideon
Pardon? Sidious's lightsaber was used in the Senate rotunda. But after the lightsaber duel ended, he was never in a position where it would be advantageous, thus nullifying Janus's attempt to use Occam's Razor. Once again, be mindful of your sarcasm, young padawan.



You're incorrect. When the lightning coil detonated, Yoda and Sidious were flung off of the Senate pod. Sidious grabbed on the railing; Yoda was blasted all the way back into the interior to crash onto the Chancellor's podium. That is the pod you see him gripping. He was knocked away, far farther than Sidious.



a.) Blocking something is not the same as overpowering it. Otherwise, when Sidious blocks Yoda's lightsaber strike, he must obviously be superior with a blade.



b.) He's demonstrated more than enough power to stop one Senate pod, especially with gravity on his side. Perhaps it was because he felt that it was getting him nowhere?



c.) The only humming noise is detectable on the last pod, when Sidious throws it and when Yoda throws it back.



That doesn't work. If we use your logic, all you've proven is that they're equal, which is really the point I've been arguing for this whole time. Ultimately, in the opening salvo, more damage was done to Yoda than to Sidious. It's irretrievable fact.

IKP
lol laughing out loud

Gideon
Originally posted by IKP
lol laughing out loud

You might think I'm joking, but he actually said that.

Lord Darkstar
First, what exactly did they say? Also, I don't think anyone was seriously saying that Yoda would wtfpwn Sid, just that Yoda would win.


So Yoda was unable to break through Yoda's defense in the first few seconds of the duel, the fact that he was outpacing him still shows that over time, Sid would have lost. Unless there in a VERY clear difference of power (which there is not in the this case) the battles go on for quite some time although one person is gaining the upper hand and will eventually exploit a weakness.



No Yoda wasn't hearding him down corridors, but it still shows that he was superior in lightsaber combat.



Yeah both of them went in overconfident, agreed. Those first few moments of the battle, the push and the lightning, are both anomolies that would likely not occur again.


I think you need to understand hyperbole, no Sid did not have to hire a maid to come in and clean up the pod and it was never seriously meant that way. The point was that after Yoda tossed the pod back, Sid was afraid.


Granted, I hadn't watched the movie to check and that was my recollection.


Yes but why did the lightsaber duel end? If Sid was winning in that, why would he decide to try something else? Yoda was clearly keen on continuing, when he jumped up to the pod he brought his lightsaber out to continue. As for cases when the lightsaber would have been useful, a large portion of the fight is skipped, but I would say that instead of fleeing up higher in the pods, continuing with the blade would be good. Also, the blade would have been useful when Yoda landed in the pod with him. Also when Sid jumped down to the pod and was looking around, wondering where Yoda was. If in a battle and uncertain of your opponents location, I would have my weapon out, just in case he came from behind.


Whoops my bad, I remembered Yoda grabbing onto something and assumed it was the pod.


That is completely different, if you block a blade it shows that your physical strength is approximately the same as your opponents. Blocking a force attack demonstrates that your level of the force is around equal with your opponent. Sid tried to use the lightning against Yoda in the pod, it failed and the expression on Sid's face was hardly that of a man about to win.


And if he felt it was getting him nowhere, than does that not demonstrate that Yoda, with gravity against him, was defeating all Sid's force attacks? Also, Sid blocking the pod would have been better for him because then he would not have had to dive away, uncertain of Yoda's location. When in a serious battle, you would always want to know where your enemy is, in diving away, Sid gave that up.


I'm not saying that Yoda would wtfpwn Sid, just that given time and in a level arena, Yoda would win. In the screenshots Janus posted Yoda was winning the saber battle. In force attacks Sid's telekensis was failing and at the very end with the lightning we see that Sid was certainly not looking confident. Sure in the opening salvo Yoda came out worse for the wear, but in the end, that means very little as the opening was both opponents being foolish and underestimating their opponent. In the end we see Yoda beating Sid with the blade and against the lightning we see Sid looking scared, mouth wide open in shock. At the very end before the exposion we hear Sid go "uh, uhggg" and then the explosion takes place. Also, as to the lightsaber combat, view the very beginning of the battle in the Senate, when they still have their blades. Sid has his teeth clenched, mouth tight and just before they cut to the pod section, Sid is going "ahhh" mouth wide open. He is hardly laughing and defintely seems to be loosing.

While the battle would not be a cakewalk, Yoda wins

Gideon
Originally posted by Lord Darkstar
First, what exactly did they say? Also, I don't think anyone was seriously saying that Yoda would wtfpwn Sid, just that Yoda would win.

I can access the official databank from here, but the two other sources are at my father's house. Sometime tonight, I'll be able to give you all three statements from all three sources.



Which was the entire point. It was Janus's contention that Yoda was dominating Sidious like a rapist with a thirteen year old girl. At best, Yoda's advantage in lightsaber combat is comically marginal, and if we are to take Janus at his word, Yoda was still unable to breach Sidious's defense, meaning that Yoda's apparent outpacing of Sidious is irrelevant unless he can use that to break through the Sith Lord's defense, of which there is no evidence.



At best, a marginally slim superiority over a Sith Lord who has not used a lightsaber in thirteen years, the greater point being that nowhere has Yoda displayed the ability to breach Sidious's defense.



Conceded, then? Excellent. We may move on to other points.



There is no objective reason to use hyperbole in this scenario unless you are seeking to aggrandize the abilities of one character and downgrade the abilities of another (further proof that Janus is not being objective nor fair).



Conceded, then? Excellent. We may move on to other points.



Was it my contention that Sidious was "winning" the lightsaber duel? No. Was it my contention that Sidious was "winning" the entire fight itself? No. If you're going to debate this with me, as I have explained, do not try to put a spin on my words or imply something alternative to what I've said.



Well, of course Yoda was clearly keen on continuing the lightsaber duel. He's a Jedi Master -- he hasn't access to nearly as many offensive Force powers as Sidious -- his best chance for success is with that weapon. Which is why, when he loses it, he has no intention of continuing the fight and retreats.



With all due respect, your assertion is preposterous. Sidious's goal throughout the fight is to escape, if it means retreating or overpowering Yoda by any means necessary. Continuing to engage in a lightsaber duel that is getting him nowhere is foolish and conterproductive to his goals. He is in less danger when there is greater distance between himself and Yoda.



Once again, with respect, this line of thought is asinine. The movie quite handily displayed that, after the pod hurling mini-battle, Sidious's lightsaber was not necessary. When Yoda landed on the final Senate pod, he ignited his lightsaber, which Sidious promptly relieved him of via Sith lightning; he disarmed his opponent without utilizing the weapon that you claim that he needed.



Conceded, then? Excellent, we may move on.



No, it is not different. Your assertion was that "Yoda is greater" because he "blocked" Sidious's Force lightning; if we apply that very same logic to lightsabers, "Sidious is greater" because he blocked all of Yoda's strikes. It is a line of thought that does not work and is best discarded.



Was it my contention that Sidious "won"? This is the very final time I will ask you to not put a spin to my words, as I have no interest in responding to someone who is going to imply something contrary to what I've said. And, to make an addendum, it did not fail. The lightning coil detonated and, as a result, Yoda was forced to flee. It was very much a success, though not in the way that Sidious intended it.



You do not seem to quite understand the concept of "getting nowhere". You're familiar with the term stalemate? In a stalemate, neither side gains any true advantage or major ground. That Sidious was not getting anywhere using the pods is not indicative that he was losing.



While I'm certain your personal expertise in battle is profound, once again, Sidious was gaining absolutely zero ground from making use of the pods. This behavior is consistent with the explanation I offered for the lightsaber duel; he changed environments and tactics to try to gain an advantage.



This was Janus's contention, and you decided to argue on behalf of him, not yourself.



Once again, if we're going to base "who is better" on facial expressions, I can point out that Sidious was "WTFpwnz0rs!" Yoda because there were moments throughout the duel that he was obviously not taking it seriously. Hell, he was in a position to kill Yoda twice (once when Yoda was unconscious, and once when Yoda was distracted trying to fling the Senate pod back) and did not capitalize on it because he found the situation amusing. You'd best just scuttle the entire point about facial expressions altogether.



There is no indication of that, but I do appreciate the efforts.

Borbarad

Borbarad

Gideon
It was only a matter of time before Nai arrived to demonstrate the capacity for arrogance in spite of mediocre ability.



Hey, Nai, did you happen to read any of the arguments posted by Janus and Lord Darkstar? Obviously not, but I'll play the good samaritan and recap the situation for you: it was Janus's contention that Yoda was decisively kicking Sidious's ass during their duel in Revenge of the Sith and, as a result, he would be able to do so on even ground. Lord Darkstar took up the same argument on Janus's behalf, which is why I mentioned the three aforementioned sources; not a single supplement to the movies concludes that Yoda was doing any bit of ass kicking. Now, while I appreciate your unnecessary observation of the logistics of this particular duel, you might want to sit this one out. No need for someone ignorant of the circumstances of the debate to throw in his two cents if he's not going to bother to read. Don't you make a habit out of lecturing others for that?



Wow, Nai, you're sure starting your baits and jabs off in a much more versatile manner than usual.

Should I start a "wow count"? I understand that English isn't your native language, but some versatility would be nice.



If the disparity between Yoda and Sidious were as immense as Janus likes to pretend that it is, yes, Nai, he should have been able to render Sidious without his weapon in such a short amount of time. That he was unable to would suggest that either the "holes" in Sidious's defense really weren't that large to exploit or Yoda was unable to do so for whatever reason.



What are you on about? Yoda's position was hardly disadvantageous, as his form relies on kinetic energy and fast movements to apply force on his opponents. Had their positions been reversed, Yoda would have been at a disadvantage, as he would lack the room to maneuver. If it is your contention that Sidious "had teh superior position!!1!", it might be best for you to relearn the basics of Ataru; it was to Yoda's best interest that Sidious remain in the center of the podium.



The passage of time is not indicative of inferior skill relative to other combatants; it would only be indicative that Sidious is not as good as he once was when he practiced with a lightsaber frequently. After all, his state of dormancy in terms of lightsaber skill did not mean that his abilities atrophied totally, as he was still able to outmaneuver and defeat three of the finest swordsmen in the Jedi Order's history in about twenty seconds, the third of which he managed to kill while sparring with Windu himself. And, while I appreciate the attempt at the ABC argument, Windu's Vaapad is tailor made to work wonders against dark side combatants, turning "the dark into a weapon of the light", so attempting to bring Yoda's skills in comparison to Windu's into the equation is ridiculous.



Really, Nai, is it your habit to apply sarcasm to situations when you're hardly making a point?



Take the syringe out of your arm, Nai. At the last sequence in the lightsaber fight that is shown in the film, Sidious is not fought out of the center position on the Chancellor's podium; Yoda breaks the lightsaber lock and moves back in the direction from whence he came, trying to wear down Sidious's defense.



You've been injecting more than your usual amount, Nai. Are there not clinics for this sort of abuse in Germany? I did not say that Sidious -- while in close quarter combat with Yoda -- deactivated his lightsaber. In fact, just for you:



...Lecturing people on reading comprehension should be high on the list of 'things not to do when arguing with Gideon, especially if he makes it look like I am a complete an utter ass'. It was never my contention that, in mid-swing, Sidious puts his lightsaber away. Now, is it your contention that an unarmed Sidious managed to escape from a lightsaber-wielding-Yoda and put several meters worth of distance between them? That would suggest that Yoda was either disabled by the Sith Lord or that Sidious is much faster than his opponent. Either way, you're not helping your case.



The former is totally out of the question, unless it is your contention that Sidious can move far faster than Yoda or overpowered him, despite being unarmed. The latter is something that I have no problem accepting and it is more logical .



I'm afraid that this branches out from speculation and into the area of assuming characters' thoughts. That Sidious "felt he couldn't last much longer" has no logical basis, Nai, and so you cannot assume that is how he thought. It is just as plausible that he thought: "Damn, this is not getting me anywhere, let's try something else." The comments on fanboyism are quaint, and that you continue to be exposed to be a bit of a hack would suggest that the drug abuse is beginning to corrupt what few brain cells you have left, Nai.

Help is out there, Nai, you need only make one telephone call.

Gideon
You're right, why bother proving it or supporting the idea, when we can just claim that it is God-given-fact and assume it, anyways. And, let's not bring up the "he ran away, LOLZ!!1!" argument, because if I remember correctly, that is exactly how the fight ended. With Sidious laughing and Yoda scrambling his little green ass across the Senate floor, and then after wards, moaning to Bail Organa how "he failed".

I can take things out of context, too, Nai, and despite the fact that your expertise in that particular area well exceeds mine, it's not to your advantage to continue.



Nai, these little one liners are ridiculous. We've gone to the obligatory "Wow, Escape " to greetings? What has EoD done to your ability to convey skilled sarcasm?







He always brings his hands up near his upper chest and face, Janus. Likewise, we clearly saw from the trajectory of the lightning that that is where Sidious was aiming for. Can it be that Sidious really didn't pull a sneak attack on Yoda and lifted his hands rather slowly, punctuating with the obligatory evil monologue, but Yoda's head (like Sidious's own with the telekinetic push) was up his ass and he (you'll pardon me for saying this) "paid the price for lack of vision"?



Nai (on Sidious knocking Yoda unconscious): "LOLZ, Yoda was not prepareD!!!11!"

Me: "I know, Nai. It was never my contention that Sidious overpowered a fully prepared Yoda. However, due to hubris, Yoda was unable to provide a solid defense."

Nai (on Sidious being knocked across the room): "LOLZ, YODA OWNED HIM!!!"

Me: "What? Nai, he obviously wasn't concentrating on Yoda, since he was laughing and spitting out venomous one liners at the Jedi Master."

Nai: *waving around his Hypocrite License* I know! But, see, I'm gonna call you a fanboy and then make bullshit, tainted, and biased observations on my own!! Hahahah! Wow, Escape!"



Speculation without basis. But, we know, old habits die hard. You're excused.

What an astonishing comment.

What? A (not-so-funny attempt at a) one liner? No, Nai, I am astonished.



This just in: Nai Fohl is attempting to make a logical deduction. In other news, hell just froze over.



We interrupt this bullshit for a breaking news announcement: this is bullshit.

Nai, this is beyond retarded. It's your contention that Sidious could not have disengaged lightsaber combat against Yoda,



...But it is your contention that Sidious, being the inferior duelist and Force user, managed to evade and/or overpowered a fully armed Yoda to escape to the far away Senate pods? Maybe I should let you argue this for me.



Once again, Nai, the explanation your offering is illogical and serves, despite your intent, only to aggrandize Sidious. As far as the screenplay is concerned, Sidious was disarmed, but the circumstances around the fight (Yoda letting Sidious go, for no reason) is utter crap, as well as contradicted by the movie, novelization, and supplementary sources.



Where the hell do you get those calculations, Nai? Sidious is a small, adult male and you're suggesting that he is eight times the weight of Yoda?



Prove that he was pushing Sidious back. The lightning coil, once again, was no where near Sidious when it detonated. Prove that Sidious, obviously more familiar with the effects of Force lightning than Yoda, did not predict the coming explosion and attempt to lean away from its full force. Likewise, prove that the height and weight factored in as an advantage with the metaphysical Force lightning, since -- when Yoda pushed the coil back -- it stopped directly in the middle before it detonated. Yoda didn't fling the lightning back to Sidious, much as you try to portray otherwise.

Gideon
He hurled pods over his head in direct defiance of gravity to gain momentum. Multiple pods. Without visible effort. Logic concludes that he possessed the power to stop that pod, especially with gravity on his side.



You have yet to prove that the position, the center of the podium, was disadvantageous to Yoda, and you're not in a position to say, without a shadow of a doubt, that he "decided he can't stand Yoda's assault any longer".









Why don't you go ahead and post the entire excerpt of the fight that the screenplay documents? Really, if you want, Nai, I can go ahead and post statements from the novelization, which is as much pro-Sidious as the screenplay is pro-Yoda, and being on the same plateau of canon (with Stover's own assurances that everything in the novel is there because Lucas wanted it to be), and you'll be on a one man destination to the town of Nowhere, population 01.



Well, this was entertaining, but you haven't proved a bit of the above. Likewise, the little "recovery" point is laughable. Sidious was hanging on the ledge, trying to pull himself up. Yoda wasn't in such a position. You'd have to prove that Sidious would recover slower from such a fall. Really, Nai, you should leave this to Lord Darkstar. Because with each new addition to this debate, those arguing pro-Yoda are failing.

Go into exile, you must.

Darth Sexy
One problem with this Escape. If Sidious did in fact predict the coming explosion, why did he make the "oh shit I'm screwed face"? That would be quite contradictory to him "expecting" the oncoming explosion and more along the lines of "wow I didn't know Yoda could do this and it's actually affecting me and coming towards me."

Gideon
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
One problem with this Escape. If Sidious did in fact predict the coming explosion, why did he make the "oh shit I'm screwed face"? That would be quite contradictory to him "expecting" the oncoming explosion and more along the lines of "wow I didn't know Yoda could do this and it's actually affecting me and coming towards me."

It's not contradictory at all, Darth Sexy. Even if he predicted the coming detonation, he was screwed either way: he could either suffer the consequences of the explosion or he could have disengaged the lightning attack, in which case, any resistance to Yoda would be severed, and he would suffer the full blast of deflected energy. It could be the expression of a man who realizes that he might have his ass knocked off of the pod either way.

Darth Sexy
From my POV, it looked like Sidious was either scared shitless or hurt, whereas Yoda had that serious look on his face.

Gideon
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
From my POV, it looked like Sidious was either scared shitless or hurt, whereas Yoda had that serious look on his face.

Once again, it is not my contention that the Emperor was not afraid. I'm getting tired of having to repeat myself to everyone, repeating this same shit, verbatim. But those who suggest pain should be taken as candidates for the Special Olympics; at the time of Sidious's anger/'fear' facial expression, the lightning had neither detonated nor touched him. There is no reason for him to feel pain, so it unquestionably comes to fear, which I did not deny.



That might instill fear in a human Sith Lord; "Gee, I just achieved galacitc conquest and am now in a position where I might either suffer a sudden shockwave (no pun intended) and a great fall or I might be disabled with my own lightning and thrown off this pod by the Green Goblin's mini-me."

Darth Sexy
It's not so much as the face, but the sounds coming from his mouth. If you turn up the volume loud you'll hear them. They sounded like pain, unless I'm smoking something.

Gideon
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
It's not so much as the face, but the sounds coming from his mouth. If you turn up the volume loud you'll hear them. They sounded like pain, unless I'm smoking something.

And now you're relying on conclusions based solely from sounds, Darth Sexy? Isn't that Janus's line of reasoning that led to something along the lines of: "Omg! Sidz usez teh pods anti-grav features, including ze one sent at Yoda, but Yoda turns it off cuz he's 2 cool 2 use it!!one!"? Is it your contention (I'm using that word a hell of a lot) that people who are afraid do not make noises or whimpers? Likewise, is it your contention that Sidious is obviously in pain despite no suggestion of evidence that would lead one to conclude as much?

Darth Sexy
No no Escape, I said it's what it SOUNDS like, not what it is. Notice how I'm not making a foregone conclusion, instead electing to voice an opinion.

Gideon
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No no Escape, I said it's what it SOUNDS like, not what it is. Notice how I'm not making a foregone conclusion, instead electing to voice an opinion.

That's precisely the point. I'm all for sharing opinions, but why voice an observation in the midst of a debate that clearly defies logic and canon? Especially when it gives people such as Nai opportunities to rehash the same things with the same words, draining more of my patience due to the constant demand to repeat everything I say with not only Nai, but Lord Darkstar and Janus.

Darth Sexy
Point taken. Wouldn't it be logical to conclude that when Yoda stopped and pushed Sidious' lightning back at him, Sidious was in a great deal of pain, albeit for a short time?

Gideon
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Point taken. Wouldn't it be logical to conclude that when Yoda stopped and pushed Sidious' lightning back at him, Sidious was in a great deal of pain, albeit for a short time?

My friend, take this for what it's worth (even if it isn't much), but I'm about to make an observation that is truly void of insult or ill intent. It seems to me that you're, for some reason, very keen on the conclusion that the Emperor was in pain sometime throughout this confrontation. For what reason, I can't be sure, but I suspect it's because that we know -- beyond all doubt -- that Yoda himself was in pain.

That said, no. There is absolutely no reason to suggest that the Emperor was in pain during that last portion of the battle concerning the lightning coil. The lightning did not touch him, even when Yoda was pressing back against it. Indeed, he was not struck by any force until the coil detonated. So, unless you have something else to offer why in the world Sidious would be in agony, I see no reason to even entertain the idea.

Darth Sexy
I'm not keen on the Emperor being in pain, it's just an observation I've made through watching the movie many times, however distorted it may be.

Gideon
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I'm not keen on the Emperor being in pain, it's just an observation I've made through watching the movie many times, however distorted it may be.

Very distorted. Though, as I said, if you have something to suggest that he is, post it.

Darth Sexy
Well my observation is the fact that the lightning ball was slowly coming back at him and his reaction (in my opinion) was that out of fear and pain. I'm not saying he was in pain the entire fight, just in that one instance, before he quickly recovered. If you explain (again) WHY he wouldn't be in pain then maybe I will understand better.

Gideon
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Well my observation is the fact that the lightning ball was slowly coming back at him and his reaction (in my opinion) was that out of fear and pain. I'm not saying he was in pain the entire fight, just in that one instance, before he quickly recovered. If you explain (again) WHY he wouldn't be in pain then maybe I will understand better.

Darth Sexy, why would he be in pain? Neither the lightning nor the lightning coil touched him; he couldn't have suffered any ill effects or "pain" until after the coil detonated.

Darth Sexy
I am not an expert on the characteristics of force lightning. The closer the ball was coming towards Sidious, the wider his eyes opened and the more noise he made. It APPEARED to be pain, that's all I am saying.

Gideon
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I am not an expert on the characteristics of force lightning. The closer the ball was coming towards Sidious, the wider his eyes opened and the more noise he made. It APPEARED to be pain, that's all I am saying.

Neither am I, but the ball did not touch him. The lightning did not touch him. There is no logical reason for him to be in pain. In all seriousness, I don't see what's so hard to understand. Surprise, fear, sure. But pain makes no sense.

wolfpack86
I'm going to touch on just two points, and see if they seem like the "most logical" explanation, of who is more powerful in both areas saber combat and force.

1) In the saber combat, ask yourself, in all the star wars movies when did a jedi or sith "ever" tuck there weapon away "in combat"? To me it's "much more logical" to conclude that indeed Sidious was relieved of his blade, as the ROTS script also states.

2) In the Force department, watch the force duel on the pod carefully, and you "will" see that Yoda is deflecting the lightning coil and that it is moving closer to Sidious, thus it is the "most logical" conclusion that Yoda is the superior in the force power department as well, because Sidious was not able to stop Yoda from beginning the deflection, and that is despite the fact that Yoda also starts the lightning coil scene at a disadvantage, with Sidious leaning heavily forward, but by the end it is reversed and Sidious is leaning heavily backwards, obviously being overcome by Yoda.

Gideon
I suppose two pages of ridiculously articulate points have been lost on some people, but since I'm repeating myself for Darth Sexy, I might as well try it for you, as well.

Originally posted by wolfpack86
I'm going to touch on just two points, and see if they seem like the "most logical" explanation, of who is more powerful in both areas saber combat and force.

Very well. I'm game.



The script:



...To me, it's "more logical" that Yoda did not WTFpwn Sidious in combat and then let him escape for no reason. Or does it make sense that the Jedi Master would allow his target and most deadly foe to potentially gain an advantage over him?




Sidious inferior because he can't stop Yoda from deflecting his bolts? I suppose Yoda is inferior to Dooku because he can't stop Dooku from generating Force lightning. What kind of logic is that? The lightning coil starts just short of Yoda's fingertips, he collects his energy and pushes it back towards Sidious; it doesn't strike the Sith Lord or explode in his face, but rather halts in between them both before it detonates. He doesn't exactly make Sidious eat it or anything. Likewise, prove Sidious wasn't leaning back to try to avoid being blasted further by the explosion that was about to come.

Darth Sexy
Now is the script inadmissible because it wasn't in the movies or is it justified as something happening "in between" scenes?

Luminatus
The idea Yoda disarmed Sidious is not contradicted in the movie. It's the same as saying because a person did not deny something he is accused of, it's true.
There is no denying large gaps in the two fights of the movies are shown as we switch from Anakin/Obi-Wan to Palpatine/Yoda. Since the movie itself does not say or show that Palpatine was not disamred by Yoda, the claim that he was disarmed should be taken as fact as no actual evidence contradicts it.

Gideon
Originally posted by Luminatus
The idea Yoda disarmed Sidious is not contradicted in the movie. It's the same as saying because a person did not deny something he is accused of, it's true.
There is no denying large gaps in the two fights of the movies are shown as we switch from Anakin/Obi-Wan to Palpatine/Yoda. Since the movie itself does not say or show that Palpatine was not disamred by Yoda, the claim that he was disarmed should be taken as fact as no actual evidence contradicts it.

No one is suggesting that Palpatine being disarmed is not a possibility, but what I quoted is from the screenplay, verbatim. If we accept that version of the truth, Yoda was about to kill Palpatine, but then let the Dark Lord escape for no reason.

Luminatus
You make a valid point.
Why can't we just go by the movie itself? That's what ultimately matters most in this.

wolfpack86
That is completely different, Yoda isn't going to stop force powers before they happen, he stops the force power when he reacts to it. The fact that Sidious could not "overwhelm" Yoda, is evidence that at the very least he is not capable of doing so in the force, but also Yoda "was able" to resist Sidious, and begin to push the force coil back towards him. Ask yourself this, if the lightning coil had not detonated, how do you think the coil scene would have ended, being as Yoda "was" pushing it back in Sidious's direction? As far as Sidious leaning back, I am again trying to come to what I think is the "most logical" explanation for why he was doing so, and I think it's because he was being overwhelmed by Yoda.

Gideon
Originally posted by wolfpack86
That is completely different, Yoda isn't going to stop force powers before they happen, he stops the force power when he reacts to it.

It's not completely different. Just as Yoda is unable to intercept and prevent Force powers from being activated, Sidious is unable to intercept and prevent Yoda from attempting to deflect (a Force power)his Sith lightning.



Sidious was unable to overwhelm Yoda in a Force contest regarding a specific Force power that Yoda happens to have a natural defense against.



It was impressive that Yoda was able to deflect Sidious's lightning and begin to push the lightning coil back in the Sith Lord's direction, but that does not conclude superior Force ability.



No idea, because before the coil detonated, it stopped.



And if you had a measure of evidence to support it, I submit and concede the point. But every single source I have seen has contradicted the point that Janus, Nai Fohl, and Lord Darkstar wish to conclude:



-- the New Essential Chronology, page 84.



-- the Ultimate Visual Guide, page 61.



-- the Complete Visual Dictionary, page 161.



-- the official databank, 'Yoda' profile.

wolfpack86
Natural defense or not, he was unable to do it, it doesn't matter which force power he was using.





It might not conclude that, but it gives very strong evidence of such. It's just like when you bench press something, if you can begin to push the bar back up "the hardest part", by the halfway point don't you think it's "more likely" that you will continue to push it all the way up, rather then to let it fall back down? giving evidence that you are strong enough to "overcome" the force.

Pyron_Knight

Pyron_Knight

Admiral Akbar
Another post using good textual as well as visual evidence. Job well done.

Pyron_Knight
Thanks. smile The praise is much appreciated.

Darth Sexy
You know escape, the databank is contradictory of what actually happened in the movie. Nobody bested anybody. It was a stalemate, the end.

Admiral Akbar
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You know escape, the databank is contradictory of what actually happened in the movie. Nobody bested anybody. It was a stalemate, the end.

How boring.

Pyron_Knight
Indeed. I say:

A) Palpatine lost fairly to Mace Windu in a pure saber duel. He did not fair much better than that when engaging Master Yoda. Yoda wins the lightsaber fight.

B) The junk in the hanger that could be thrown using the Force includes those things on the wall or pieces of the ceiling or even that crane. Yoda will not be having to jump from platform to platform this time so he'll more than likely do what he did with Dooku and just chuck everything Palpatine throws at him away. If Palpatine uses his lightning at Yoda...we know what will happen. Yoda pushes it back on the Sith Lord and once he's gained the advantage from this, who knows.

C) All-out fight probably goes like it did in ROTS. However, if Sidious starts off quick with the lightning and Yoda shoves it back in his face again, he will still have his lightsaber which he can utilize with his superior speed to follow up the lightning explosion by cutting off Palpatine's head.

There ya go.

Gideon
Taking into consideration the sheer amount of opposition and thinking about it reflectively, I suppose there is no way to conclude that I'm the one who has come to the right conclusion, I suppose I'm just not seeing something. I'm going to concede the argument without quarter or objection.

Darth Sexy
No escape, you are still right, but people are making assumptions as to what would happen on even ground, that's all.

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