Captain America Vs. Prometheus

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thadarknite84
In a plan to take down the Avengers; Prometheus attempts to break in SHIELD Headquarters in gain access to secret files on the Avengers. But is immediately confronted by Captain America. The two begin to engage in Battle. Will Captain America put a stop to Prometheus plans or will he be the first Avenger to fall?

Mr Marvel
I see this as a good match! If they meet randomly then I see captain America taking the majority however, if Prometheus already possesses the combined skill of the 30 martial artists then he takes it 10/10.

Tyler Dayspring
This happened in JLA vs. Avengers and unfortunately Prometheus got taken out waaaay too quickly.

TricksterPriest
Crossovers ain't canon. And Prom has taken out Lady Shiva in 3 seconds. Batman beat him by jamming his helmet and altering the data to that of Stephen Hawking. IE: prep.

Captain American should not be able to beat him in a straight fight.

Silent Master
Cap has already fought and beaten Cache who had every style downloaded.

Soljer
Originally posted by Silent Master
Cap has already fought and beaten Cache who had every style downloaded.

Just gonna mention that.

TricksterPriest
who's Cache?

Phantom Zone
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
who's Cache?
All you need to know is that hes a robot that downloaded every martial art in the world. Cap pawned him.

thadarknite84
Robots, computers, and machines have limitations. Human beings do not. Robot can only go as far as it's programed to. It's the human mind behind the machine. Prometheus would be way more difficult to handle. Look at what he did to the JLA. Cap is just one man. There is also some prep involved, and he has all 30 MA, including Batman's downloaded.

Silent Master
He had Batman downloaded in JLA/Avengers, it didn't do him any good.

BTW, there was no mention that Cache being a robot(not even sure if he was, IIRC he was listed as an artificial sentience)had anything to do with why Cap was able to beat him.

Galan007
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
All you need to know is that hes a robot that downloaded every martial art in the world. Cap pawned him. Neo from 'The Matrix' got damn near every style downloaded as well, and he was pwned at first too.

That's all you need to know. vin

thadarknite84
It did him a lot of good. He defeated Batman twice. Batman pulled away with win by reprogramming his helmet, not by h2h.

Silent Master
Again, I said it didn't do him any good in JLA/Avengers, and it didn't.

For those that don't use crossovers, Cap beat Cache who had a lot more than 30 styles downloaded.

thadarknite84
Again, as I said. Prometheus defeated Batman with just 30. You act like Batman is not better fighter than Cap. And your point proves nothing. That doesn't mean that Cap would Prometheus.

Silent Master
Originally posted by thadarknite84
Again, as I said. Prometheus defeated Batman with just 30.

And lost to Cap



He isn't.



Cap has beaten Prometheus and has beaten someone that had even more styles downloaded, all evidence points to Cap winning.

thadarknite84
Originally posted by Silent Master
And lost to Cap



He isn't.



Cap has beaten Prometheus and has beaten someone that had even more styles downloaded, all evidence points to Cap winning.

Batman is a better fighter, I've been through this before. There isn't nobody on this site that's going to tell me different. I'll put it like this. Batman is better all around. Your telling me that a grown man, who had the heart but didn't have the will or the determination to work hard and be the best. Is a better fighter than a 8 year old kid. who could have been playing with his toys or doing something else with all of that money. Who instead dedicated his entire life to be the best at everything. Is not a better fighter? Cap gets way too much credit. It's the SSS that makes him what he is. Batman didn't have to be Batman. How many rich kids lose their parents but they do nothing to help others or to better them selfs. A 8 year old boy had more determination and will than a grown man, how sad is that.

Silent Master
What does a grown man with no will or determination have to do with Cap?

thadarknite84
Originally posted by Silent Master
What does a grown man with no will or determination have to do with Cap?

It has everything to do with Cap or maybe you don't remember. That skinning man who wanted to be a solider and help his country. But he was physically weak and didn't have what it takes to be a solider.

Silent Master
There was a reason he was "physically weak" and it had nothing to do with will or determination, or maybe you don't remember

thadarknite84
There are a lot of reasons why a 8 year old boy shouldn't take on the kind of responsibility that Batman has taken on. And what reasons are you talking about? I got my info from Marvel.com and this what it said about Cap. "Steve Rogers was a scrawny fine arts student specializing in industrialization in the 1940's before America entered World War II. He attempted to enlist in the army only to be turned away due to his poor constitution. A U.S. officer offered Rogers an alternative way to serve his country by being a test subject in project, Operation: Rebirth, a top secret defense research project designed to create physically superior soldiers. Rogers accepted and after a rigorous physical and combat training and selection process was selected as the first test subject. He was given injections and oral ingestion of the formula dubbed the "Super Soldier Serum" developed by the scientist Dr. Abraham Erskine. Rogers was then exposed to a controlled burst of "Vita-Rays" that activated and stabilized the chemicals in his system. The process successfully altered his physiology from its frail state to the maximum of human efficiency, including greatly enhanced musculature and reflexes". So as I said. He didn't have what it takes to be a solider. He didn't need the SSS. Why not workout like anybody else, a 8 year old can do it.

Silent Master
That's what I thought, you've never read the books and are relying on a handbook type entry. IIRC it's been stated multiple times that the reason he was frail was that he was a sickly kid due to environment and genetics.

However, even the entry your trying to use states that he made it through a "rigorous physical and combat training and selection process" before being selected, which goes against your claim that he had no will or determination.

thadarknite84
Originally posted by Silent Master
That's what I thought, you've never read the books and are relying on a handbook type entry. IIRC it's been stated multiple times that the reason he was frail was that he was a sickly kid due to environment and genetics.

However, even the entry your trying to use states that he made it through a "rigorous physical and combat training and selection process" before being selected, which goes against your claim that he had no will or determination.

No your wrong it's proves that he didn't need the SSS, why not keep training. I see the SSS as a short cut, and a big one at that. I don't read Caps books and I didn't use a handbook neither. I said Marvel.com. I do have the Marvel encyclopedia. And for the record, handbooks are canon.

Silent Master
Incorrect, he wasn't denied enlistment because he was out of shape but rather for medical reasons, all him making it through the training to be selected proves is that he doesn't lack either will or determination, something that you would know if you actually read Cap books.

Comics >>>> handbooks, BTW, most info from Marvel.com is from handbooks.

Caps Conscience
What does it matter if Cap took steroids to become a baddass. The fact of the matter is this. Cap is a better fighter than bat**** because he beats up people that bat**** loses to. Cap kicks more ass so he is better fighter regardless of the SSS. Get over it.

thadarknite84
Originally posted by Silent Master
Incorrect, he wasn't denied enlistment because he was out of shape but rather for medical reasons, all him making it through the training to be selected proves is that he doesn't lack either will or determination, something that you would know if you actually read Cap books.

Comics >>>> handbooks, BTW, most info from Marvel.com is from handbooks.

You should read my post more closely.

Originally posted by thadarknite84
No your wrong it's proves that he didn't need the SSS, why not keep training. I see the SSS as a short cut, and a big one at that. I don't read Caps books and I didn't use a handbook neither. I said Marvel.com. I do have the Marvel encyclopedia. And for the record, handbooks are canon.

Silent Master
The SSS was his only way into the Army since he was denied enlistment due to medical reasons.

thadarknite84
Originally posted by Caps Conscience
What does it matter if Cap took steroids to become a baddass. The fact of the matter is this. Cap is a better fighter than bat**** because he beats up people that bat**** loses to. Cap kicks more ass so he is better fighter regardless of the SSS. Get over it.

What the hell are you talking about. First off, crossovers are not canon and second, Cap is good because the SSS make him able to push himself to the limit. Batman pushes himself. SSS doesn't make him anymore of a better fighter than Batman. That's like saying he's as smart as Mr Fantastic, Dr Doom, or Lex Luthor, because the SSS pushes his intelligence to peak of what is humanly possible. No, that would be BS. Fighting skills, intelligence, and strategic thinking gos to Batman. Strength, stamina, and durability gos to Cap.

darthgoober
Originally posted by thadarknite84
What the hell are you talking about. First off, crossovers are not canon and second, Cap is good because the SSS make him able to push himself to the limit. Batman pushes himself. SSS doesn't make him anymore of a better fighter than Batman. That's like saying he's as smart as Mr Fantastic, Dr Doom, or Lex Luthor, because the SSS pushes his intelligence to peak of what is humanly possible. No, that would be BS. Fighting skills, intelligence, and strategic thinking gos to Batman. Strength, stamina, and durability gos to Cap.
The JLA/Avengers IS canon unless I'm mistaken. And if Bat's was a better strategist, then why would Supes say that Cap would be the best choice from both universes to coordinate the final battle at the end of the arc?

Caps Conscience
Originally posted by thadarknite84
What the hell are you talking about. First off, crossovers are not canon and second, Cap is good because the SSS make him able to push himself to the limit. Batman pushes himself. SSS doesn't make him anymore of a better fighter than Batman. That like saying he's as smart as Mr Fantastic, Dr Doom, or Lex Luthor, because the SSS pushes his intelligence to peak of what is humanly possible. No, that would be BS. Fighting skills, intelligence, and strategic thinking gos to Batman. Strength, stamina, and durability gos to Cap.

It doesn't matter what is pushing him to the limit. What matters is the result and the result is that Cap Kicks more ass than Bats. Sorry to hurt your pride but you arguement is moronic to say the least. Fighting Skill goes to Cap and Cap has better tactical mind that Bats also. If you need some body to lead an army you would get Cap if you needed somebody to find the cure for AIDS you would get Bats. Get over it. Cap>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Your life>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Bats

darthgoober
Originally posted by Caps Conscience
It doesn't matter what is pushing him to the limit. What matters is the result and the result is that Cap Kicks more ass than Bats. Sorry to hurt your pride but you arguement is moronic to say the least. Fighting Skill goes to Cap and Cap has better tactical mind that Bats also. If you need some body to lead an army you would get Cap if you needed somebody to find the cure for AIDS you would get Bats. Get over it. Cap>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Your life>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Bats
Settle down man, it's just a debate about comic books.

batdude123
Originally posted by darthgoober
The JLA/Avengers IS canon unless I'm mistaken. And if Bat's was a better strategist, then why would Supes say that Cap would be the best choice from both universes to coordinate the final battle at the end of the arc?

Because Kurt Busiek is a wanker...

Silent Master

darthgoober
Originally posted by batdude123
Because Kurt Busiek is a wanker...
Oh you're just mad that Iron Man was able to prep that ship faster than Batman thought was possible stick out tongue .

thadarknite84
Originally posted by darthgoober
The JLA/Avengers IS canon unless I'm mistaken. And if Bat's was a better strategist, then why would Supes say that Cap would be the best choice from both universes to coordinate the final battle at the end of the arc?

Your post would mean something if were canon. I have Info on these characters and that event is not mention in any of their histories. Batman is not a team leader but he knows how to get out of almost any situation. He is the second greatest escape artist in the world. Can Cap crate serums? No, Batman is well rounded. He studied criminology and chemistry. He can speak more than 6 different languages. And he built most of his equipment and modified them. He really doesn't need a team, as he mostly work alone. And he prefers it that way. Cap is a great team leader, but all around strategic thinking still gos to Batman. Just compare the bat-suit to Cap's. That alone shows you just how much more of a strategic thinker, that Batman is.

batdude123
Originally posted by darthgoober
Oh you're just mad that Iron Man was able to prep that ship faster than Batman thought was possible stick out tongue .

Nigga, please. A lot of things about JLA/Avengers are hokey as hell.

Silent Master
How does comparing the batsuit to Cap's prove that Batman is a more strategic thinker?

brainchild81
Originally posted by thadarknite84
Batman is a better fighter, I've been through this before. There isn't nobody on this site that's going to tell me different. I'll put it like this. Batman is better all around. Your telling me that a grown man, who had the heart but didn't have the will or the determination to work hard and be the best. Is a better fighter than a 8 year old kid. who could have been playing with his toys or doing something else with all of that money. Who instead dedicated his entire life to be the best at everything. Is not a better fighter? Cap gets way too much credit. It's the SSS that makes him what he is. Batman didn't have to be Batman. How many rich kids lose their parents but they do nothing to help others or to better them selfs. A 8 year old boy had more determination and will than a grown man, how sad is that. laughing out loud What's really sad is how irrelevant your post was. This isn't about who got their physical talents in a more admirable way, if it was, I'd also say Bats. It''s about who's the better fighter. Cap is. Cap's a cut above Batman physically & he's at least just as good as or possibly better than Bats as a tactician. The argument you use is one often used by Batfanboys. Avoid it.

shiv
Prometheus's tech drags and drops AllaCapsSkills directly to Prometheus's muscle memory

BIG OUCH for Cap

Silent Master
Except he also has exp fighting people like that "Taskmaster".

Edit:Besides, he doesn't get prep so he likely isn't going to have the time needed for that.

shiv
Insta Feed Drag and drop baby. wink

Silent Master
Examples of him doing this during a fight?

thadarknite84
Originally posted by brainchild81
laughing out loud What's really sad is how irrelevant your post was. This isn't about who got their physical talents in a more admirable way, if it was, I'd also say Bats. It''s about who's the better fighter. Cap is. Cap's a cut above Batman physically & he's at least just as good as or possibly better than Bats as a tactician. The argument you use is one often used by Batfanboys. Avoid it.

Irrelevant to the thread, if anything. I see you just read and don't fully understand my point. I'll make it simple. Batman has been training very hard since he was 8. When you start training at a young age. The mind is more adaptable (like a sponge) to learning martial arts. Apart form that, Batman knows more fighting styles. This is common knowledge. And you say that Cap is possibly a better tactician, yeah when it comes to leading a team. But everything can't be solved through fighting. What can Cap do to stop a plague from spreading? In "Civil War" when he was captured by Iron Man. what happen to him being a great tactician? Batman would have escaped on his own without any help.

Silent Master

thadarknite84

Silent Master
So?

thadarknite84
Originally posted by Silent Master
So?

That's why he isn't better.

Silent Master
Originally posted by thadarknite84
Yeah because of the SSS BS. Your not telling nothing that Batman can't do.

Really, Where has it been said that Batman can master a new style of fighting in minutes?

Silent Master
Originally posted by thadarknite84
That's why he isn't better.

Could you be a little more clear, Are you saying that having the SSS means that Cap isn't a better fighter?

thadarknite84
Originally posted by Silent Master
Really, Where has it been said that Batman can master a new style of fighting in minutes?

Just by that post alone tells me that you really don't understand Batman. What makes you doubt batman?

Daredevil1
Cap defeats Pro.

Cap 7/10


People don't just reference Cache for nothing.

Cache stated he also chose a body that is more durable then weakly human flesh.

Plus too boot he had every martial arts style known to earth. Add to that he had multiple streams of data knowing all information from the net. Shows his computer genius was greater then regular man thats for sure.

thadarknite84
Originally posted by Silent Master
Could you be a little more clear, Are you saying that having the SSS means that Cap isn't a better fighter?

If someone cheats on a test and pasted the class. Is he consider as smart or smarter than someone who didn't cheat?

Silent Master
Originally posted by thadarknite84
Just by that post alone tells me that you really don't understand Batman. What makes you doubt batman?

I'll take your inability to answer my question to mean that no such thing has been said of Batman.

Originally posted by thadarknite84
If someone cheats on a test and pasted the class. Is he consider as smart or smarter than someone who didn't cheat?

What does cheating on a test have to do with whether Cap is a better fighter?

darthgoober
Originally posted by thadarknite84
If someone cheats on a test and pasted the class. Is he consider as smart or smarter than someone who didn't cheat?
It would only be cheating if Cap took the SSS after the match was arranged. When people say "Cap vs Batman" unless otherwise stipulated it's Cap WITH the SSS vs Batman. The SSS is a stipulation of the comparison so it's in no way cheating because it goes right along with the rules set down for the match. Taking the SSS away from Cap on the other hand WOULD be cheating because it's going against the battle's established format.

See saying that Batman is a better fighter than Cap without the SSS is one thing, but saying that Batman is a better fighter than Cap WITH the SSS just because Batman's better without it stinks of bias. You may find Batman's methods to be the more admirable of the two, but how admirable their methods were doesn't the level of fighting ability both ended up with.

thadarknite84
Originally posted by Silent Master
I'll take your inability to answer my question to mean that no such thing has been said of Batman.



What does cheating on a test have to do with whether Cap is a better fighter?

Well I see that you couldn't answer my question neither. It's kinda like Ryu and Ken. Batman has more skill but Cap is a better fighter. Because he has something that batman doesn't. And it's not skill, will power, or determination. Because chances are that it would be a draw.

Silent Master
Well, for one thing, your first question was asking why I doubt Batman, however I've never said that I doubted him.

Your second question had no bearing on the topic.

thadarknite84
Originally posted by darthgoober
It would only be cheating if Cap took the SSS after the match was arranged. When people say "Cap vs Batman" unless otherwise stipulated it's Cap WITH the SSS vs Batman. The SSS is a stipulation of the comparison so it's in no way cheating because it goes right along with the rules set down for the match. Taking the SSS away from Cap on the other hand WOULD be cheating because it's going against the battle's established format.

See saying that Batman is a better fighter than Cap without the SSS is one thing, but saying that Batman is a better fighter than Cap WITH the SSS just because Batman's better without it stinks of bias. You may find Batman's methods to be the more admirable of the two, but how admirable their methods were doesn't the level of fighting ability both ended up with.

No, but batman has more skill

darthgoober
Originally posted by thadarknite84
No, but batman has more skill
Based on what? No opinions about which character is "better", what actual proof/scan establishes that Batman is outright more skilled?

shiv
uuggh. back to topic.

Prometheus crafted The Helmet with the ''Key To Everything'' -the ultimate plot device - Period.

With the current upgrades to Prometheus's Muscle Memory, Bronze Tiger W.W. Richard Dragon etc etc Cap is not connecting with a punch/shield untill a significant amount of lactic acid builds up within Prometheus.

Going Back to The Helmet. By 45 seconds into the fight The Helmet will have hardwired every move Cap has ever practiced direct to Pro's skillset.

Btw Prometheus has a gun.


Prometheus 10/10

Phantom Zone
Originally posted by Galan007
Neo from 'The Matrix' got damn near every style downloaded as well, and he was pwned at first too.

That's all you need to know. vin

This aint the matrix. Cap listed the reasons why he beat him and those reasons dont apply to the matrix. miffed:

Phantom Zone
Originally posted by thadarknite84
No, but batman has more skill


http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/8683/dcdbatcap2csu8.th.jpg

no expression

Silent Master
Originally posted by shiv
uuggh. back to topic.

Prometheus crafted The Helmet with the ''Key To Everything'' -the ultimate plot device - Period.

With the current upgrades to Prometheus's Muscle Memory, Bronze Tiger W.W. Richard Dragon etc etc Cap is not connecting with a punch/shield untill a significant amount of lactic acid builds up within Prometheus.

Going Back to The Helmet. By 45 seconds into the fight The Helmet will have hardwired every move Cap has ever practiced direct to Pro's skillset.

Btw Prometheus has a gun.


Prometheus 10/10

Sorry, but according to the comics, Cap has already beaten him and for those that don't want to use a crossover, he's beaten Cache and Cache had even more skills downloaded.

shiv
ok lets go with what yer sayin

Bane beats Batman Therefore Bane > Batman.

Cap= Bats from here:
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/8683/dcdbatcap2csu8.th.jpg



Bane > Bats n Cap Right?

aND given the belief that Cap>Prometheus
Then Bane > Cap Bats Prometheus Iron Fist Richard Dragon Batgirl Champion WW etc.

Phantom Zone
Originally posted by shiv
ok lets go with what yer sayin

Bane beats Batman Therefore Bane > Batman.

Cap= Bats from here:

Bane > Bats n Cap Right?

aND given the belief that Cap>Prometheus
Then Bane > Cap Bats Prometheus Iron Fist Richard Dragon Batgirl Champion WW etc. confused

Silent Master
So what you're saying is that we can't use examples where Cap has beaten Prometheus or ones that have Cap beating someone that has downloaded every style on Earth.

Interesting.

shiv
Batman beat Prometheus but we can't use that example because Well Batman sneakily reprogrammed Pro's helmet with Parkinsons before the fight.

And we can't use that scan of Wayne and Rogers Crossover coz thats Pis AND CIS from Bruce Wayne. Bruce Wayne persona is known for CIS.

And we can't use That Crossover of Cap vs Pro coz the Plot does not allow The character to make full usage of his skillset

In The TPB Hush Returns There is a Green Arrow vs Prometheus Showdown which Green Arrow wins with arrows. This too whilst in continuity is PIS.

Because with The Moves Pro Downloaded from Batman plucking the arrows out of the air would have been no big deal. The failiure to reach for the gun at his side to lay down covering fire was also PIS.

Phantom Zone
Originally posted by shiv
Batman beat Prometheus but we can't use that example because Well Batman sneakily reprogrammed Pro's helmet with Parkinsons before the fight.

And we can't use that scan of Wayne and Rogers Crossover coz thats Pis AND CIS from Bruce Wayne. Bruce Wayne persona is known for CIS.

And we can't use That Crossover of Cap vs Pro coz the Plot does not allow The character to make full usage of his skillset

In The TPB Hush Returns There is a Green Arrow vs Prometheus Showdown which Green Arrow wins with arrows. This too whilst in continuity is PIS.

Because with The Moves Pro Downloaded from Batman plucking the arrows out of the air would have been no big deal. The failiure to reach for the gun at his side to lay down covering fire was also PIS.

The only point you have is the first one, apart from that you just seem to be making excuses.

Silent Master
Cap didn't reprogram anything during his fights with Prometheus and Cache, he just straight beat them down.

Phantom Zone
Originally posted by Silent Master
Cap didn't reprogram anything during his fights with Prometheus and Cache, he just straight beat them down.

Uh uh no he didnt. no expression

Silent Master

Phantom Zone

Silent Master
Ah...ok, sometimes it's hard to tell.

shiv
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Its ok im just takin the piss. laughing out loud

Geddouttahere /stfu lol.

thadarknite84
Originally posted by darthgoober
Based on what? No opinions about which character is "better", what actual proof/scan establishes that Batman is outright more skilled?

Prove what, Watcher? With a name like that, you should already know. I say he is more skilled because he's more well rounded than Cap. Batman is more skilled in alot of different areas.

brainchild81
Originally posted by thadarknite84
If someone cheats on a test and pasted the class. Is he consider as smart or smarter than someone who didn't cheat? That example shows your bias. A better example'd be is: is someone who took a "smarter than everybody" drug smarter than the guy who's studied hard to be smarter than almost everybody. The answer is "yes". The way the studied guy got his smarts was more honorable, but in the end the guy who took the enhancement would still be smarter.

darthgoober
Originally posted by thadarknite84
Prove what, Watcher? With a name like that, you should already know. I say he is more skilled because he's more well rounded than Cap. Batman is more skilled in alot of different areas.
Oh if you're talking about things other than fighting skills such as chemistry and criminology then I completely agree. I thought you were trying to say that Batman h2h combat skills were superior, which is why I asked for proof(since Cap can pretty much match Bats feat for feat in that department).

Just keep in mind that things like chemistry aren't going to help Bats in a forum fight were he doesn't get prep.

thadarknite84
Originally posted by brainchild81
That example shows your bias. A better example'd be is: is someone who took a "smarter than everybody" drug smarter than the guy who's studied hard to be smarter than almost everybody. The answer is "yes". The way the studied guy got his smarts was more honorable, but in the end the guy who took the enhancement would still be smarter.

No it really doesn't. What you said is not so different. Cap having the SSS doesn't make him more skilled. It's about how much you know and how good is your ability to use it. So give Batman the SSS and see who is really the better, more skilled fighter while they're on even ground. Because that is the only thing that puts Cap over Batman.

Silent Master
So you admit that Cap is more skilled?

thadarknite84
No, I'm saying that the SSS is the only thing that puts him over Batman.

brainchild81
I agree that's what put's him over Bats. You're gonna have to learn to cope w/that a lil' better though. You're parked in a no-whine zone laughing out loud SSS Batman vs. Cap would likely end in stalemates. These guys are both masters of using what they know to the utmost(it seems like Cap may be more adaptable though if he can master new stuff in moments).

Silent Master
Originally posted by thadarknite84
No, I'm saying that the SSS is the only thing that puts him over Batman.

That statement is a little vague.

Do you mean it makes him a better fighter, physically superior, that it's what gives him the win, or all/none of the above?

Phantom Zone
Originally posted by thadarknite84
No, I'm saying that the SSS is the only thing that puts him over Batman.

No it does not they would probably be equal. Did you see the scans where Batman was fighting Cap and it said it seemed like he had the slight edge?

Of course the SSS makes him superior compare Cap feats with Batman feats and they are vastly superior but even without the SSS Cap is still a master hell he humilited Thunderstrike and he was pissed off.

h1a8
Originally posted by Silent Master

Comics >>>> handbooks, BTW, most info from Marvel.com is from handbooks.

I disagree. Comics lie and are inconsistent more than handbooks. But I will agree that sometimes Comics>>>>handbooks and sometimes handbooks>>>>comics.

A handbook is only wrong if the comics prove it to be.
And a comic is wrong if other comics prove it to be (not the handbook).

Note:
This doesn't mean that comics>handbooks in general.
It just means that if there is a contradiction somewhere then comics take precedent over handbooks. Otherwise, if there is no contradiction then handbooks are fair game. And if comics contradict comics (in stats) then an average should be taken. And if the handbook shows that average then it has precedent over any one comic.

Silent Master
Comics are the primary source while handbooks are secondary sources and primary sources always trump secondary.

thadarknite84
No, not really. Where do you think handbooks get the info from.

Caps Conscience
Originally posted by thadarknite84
No, not really. Where do you think handbooks get the info from.

Kill yourself.



Comics are the primary source while handbooks are secondary sources and primary sources always trump secondary.

h1a8
Originally posted by Silent Master
primary sources always trump secondary.

False. Not if the primary source is inconsistent or false itself. Averages sometimes need to be taken and original writers need to be consulted.
This is to say that handbooks are not always solely based off comics (but sometimes based on the original writers opinions). Marvel says that handbook writers many times go to the original writers as a source.

And here's a kicker. Comics sometimes reference handbooks. Bet you didn't know that.

Silent Master
Who decides when the primary source is wrong?

TricksterPriest
Handbooks are NEVER to be taken over on-panel.

Regarding Hush, Prometheus was apparently a placeholder character, since the person the writer wanted to use was under litigation or unavailable.

As for JLA/Avengers...............I don't care if it is canon. Any comic where Wondy loses to Storm, or Iron Man is able to hurt Superman on his own, is outright BS and deserves to be ignored. And yes, that includes the Superman vs. Thor fight, even if I think that could happen. vin

Prometheus's skill showings at his best should be able to take down Cap. And btw, vs. Taskmaster, Cap was losing until he pulled out an energy shield. Captain American even admitted he couldn't beat Tasky without the shield.

I'm not saying Cap can't win, just that by showings, Tasky almost beat him without the shield, and Prometheus is better than Tasky on occasion.

Wait..........the scenario indicates prep for Prom right? If so, he wins. For one thing, he's likely to have Cap's data.

Silent Master
Actually, the thread has him breaking into Shield to get the info he needs for prep.

h1a8
Originally posted by Silent Master
Who decides when the primary source is wrong?

Who decides what's the case?
That's a good question.

Assuming comics are always the primary source (which they're not).
The thing we must ask is "how is the primary source wrong". If it is wrong by inconsistency then an average must be made. If the handbooks shows this average then it is decided by logic to be true. If it is wrong by putting false things then that source (comic feat) is invalid and another source is needed. A handbook can be that source if it doesn't contradict both the original writers opinions and the consistency of comics.

So to answer your question:
Depending on the situation, the handbook can decide, any person who shows proof can decide, the original writer can decide, and other comics can decide.

darthgoober
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Handbooks are NEVER to be taken over on-panel.

Regarding Hush, Prometheus was apparently a placeholder character, since the person the writer wanted to use was under litigation or unavailable.

As for JLA/Avengers...............I don't care if it is canon. Any comic where Wondy loses to Storm, or Iron Man is able to hurt Superman on his own, is outright BS and deserves to be ignored. And yes, that includes the Superman vs. Thor fight, even if I think that could happen. vin

Prometheus's skill showings at his best should be able to take down Cap. And btw, vs. Taskmaster, Cap was losing until he pulled out an energy shield. Captain American even admitted he couldn't beat Tasky without the shield.

I'm not saying Cap can't win, just that by showings, Tasky almost beat him without the shield, and Prometheus is better than Tasky on occasion.

Wait..........the scenario indicates prep for Prom right? If so, he wins. For one thing, he's likely to have Cap's data.
Storm didn't beat Wondy in JLA/Avengers, that was Marvel vs DC(the fan voted arc). And Iron Man only hurt Supes after Supes went through a battle with Thor, so that's not really all that big of a deal. Overall the match ups were ok as long as you look past the length of the battles themselves(which were entirely too short in most cases).

In regards to this scenario, Prometheus is on his way to get data on the Avengers, so I doubt he has Caps available. And since Cap knows Shield like the back of his hand and is the one confronting Prometheus after he breaks in he's going to have the home field advantage.

Silent Master
Since when are the comics not always the primary source?

h1a8
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Handbooks are NEVER to be taken over on-panel.

I disagree. Comics lie and are inconsistent more than handbooks. But I will agree that sometimes Comics>>>>handbooks and sometimes handbooks>>>>comics.

A handbook is only wrong if the comics prove it to be.
And a comic is wrong if other comics prove it to be (not the handbook).

Note:
This doesn't mean that comics>handbooks in general.
It just means that if there is a contradiction somewhere then comics take precedent over handbooks. Otherwise, if there is no contradiction then handbooks are fair game. And if comics contradict comics (in stats) then an average should be taken. And if the handbook shows that average then it has precedent over any one comic.

The reason why I disagee is because of the word "NEVER".
Handbooks can be taken over on-panel in only the cases of the above.

thadarknite84
Originally posted by Caps Conscience
Kill yourself.



Comics are the primary source while handbooks are secondary sources and primary sources always trump secondary.

Who the hell do you think you're talking to. You wouldn't talk that nonsense in front of me and that's for dam sure. Number 1, your wrong and 2, you could join your friend, Cap. The Bat's still lives on. You better talk to me like you got some sense.

Caps Conscience
Originally posted by thadarknite84
Who the hell do you think you're talking to. You wouldn't talk that nonsense in front of me and that's for dam sure. Number 1, your wrong and 2, you could join your friend, Cap. The Bat's still lives on. You better talk to me like you got some sense.

Yes I would you little ****. Now shut the **** up and go play with your transformers or something.

h1a8
Originally posted by Silent Master
Since when are the comics not always the primary source? Since the beginning. The original writers are the primary source. Thus the handbooks are the secondary source if the info is taken straight from the original writers. And if the comics take that info from the handbook to create itself then it is thirdary (I made this up) source.

thadarknite84
Originally posted by Caps Conscience
Yes I would you little ****. Now shut the **** up and go play with your transformers or something.

There isn't nothing little about me. and if you did, you'll get f***ed up quick. I don't have time for little f***ing kids. Getting mad over f***ing comic book characters. Shut the f*** up, and stop wasting my time. Your wrong, just get over it, you Captain America ass licking son of a B****. And get a life, these characters are not real.

psycho gundam
chill out guys

Silent Master
The first handbooks weren't made until 1982, the comics by that point were decades old.

Mindset
Originally posted by thadarknite84
There isn't nothing little about me. and if you did, you'll get f***ed up quick. I don't have time for little f***ing kids. Getting mad over f***ing comic book characters. Shut the f*** up, and stop wasting my time. Your wrong, just get over it, you Captain America ass licking son of a B****. And get a life, these characters are not real.

....

darthgoober
Originally posted by Caps Conscience
Yes I would you little ****. Now shut the **** up and go play with your transformers or something.
Originally posted by thadarknite84
There isn't nothing little about me. and if you did, you'll get f***ed up quick. I don't have time for little f***ing kids. Getting mad over f***ing comic book characters. Shut the f*** up, and stop wasting my time. Your wrong, just get over it, you Captain America ass licking son of a B****. And get a life, these characters are not real.
Both of you chill out or I'll get the Mods involved. If you dislike each other that much then learn to use the ignore button.

Badabing
Originally posted by Caps Conscience
Kill yourself.

Originally posted by Caps Conscience
Yes I would you little ****. Now shut the **** up and go play with your transformers or something. Cap, I don't want to see you flaming, bashing, name calling or swearing again. The next time it will be a warning.
Originally posted by thadarknite84
There isn't nothing little about me. and if you did, you'll get f***ed up quick. I don't have time for little f***ing kids. Getting mad over f***ing comic book characters. Shut the f*** up, and stop wasting my time. Your wrong, just get over it, you Captain America ass licking son of a B****. And get a life, these characters are not real. Darknite, don't let yourself get goaded into an argument which may get you a warning also. Please report anybody breaking the rules or harassing you. Even though it was in retaliation, I don't want to see that kind of language again. Thanks.


To everybody else. durfist

shiv
Originally posted by h1a8
I disagree. Comics lie and are inconsistent more than handbooks. But I will agree that sometimes Comics>>>>handbooks and sometimes handbooks>>>>comics.

A handbook is only wrong if the comics prove it to be.
And a comic is wrong if other comics prove it to be (not the handbook).

Note:
This doesn't mean that comics>handbooks in general.
It just means that if there is a contradiction somewhere then comics take precedent over handbooks. Otherwise, if there is no contradiction then handbooks are fair game. And if comics contradict comics (in stats) then an average should be taken. And if the handbook shows that average then it has precedent over any one comic.

W eek! W.
, thats... er... very Mature.

h1a8
Originally posted by Silent Master
The first handbooks weren't made until 1982, the comics by that point were decades old.

It doesn't matter. The original authors were consulted when the handbooks were made.

Silent Master
What doesn't matter is who was consulted as that doesn't change the fact that handbooks are a secondary source.

h1a8
Originally posted by Silent Master
What doesn't matter is who was consulted as that doesn't change the fact that handbooks are a secondary source.

Prehaps. But comics are sometimes a thirded source. Thus sometimes handbooks>>>comics.

Silent Master
Incorrect, comics are always the primary source.

Mr. Slippyfist
Originally posted by h1a8
Prehaps. But comics are sometimes a thirded source. Thus sometimes handbooks>>>comics.
...

If there were no comics... nevermind... doh

h1a8
Originally posted by Silent Master
Incorrect, comics are always the primary source.

False, comics many times referenced both handbooks and original writers knowledge and opinions.

Silent Master
Comics referencing handbooks doesn't make the handbooks a primary source, it's just a way of validating the info.

Do you know how it validates the info, because it's putting the info into a primary source.

h1a8
Originally posted by Silent Master
Comics referencing handbooks doesn't make the handbooks a primary source, it's just a way of validating the info.

Do you know how it validates the info, because it's putting the info into a primary source.

But some of the info in the handbook doesn't come from the comic at all.
It comes straight from the writers or original writers. Thus it is the primary source here.

Silent Master
What info?

h1a8
Originally posted by Silent Master
What info?

Power stats and bios on characters whose story isn't told in the comics.

Silent Master
Like?

h1a8
Originally posted by Silent Master
Like?


Well for starters some abstracts and cosmic beings are defined in the bios of the handbook and not in the comic. If you don't believe that some handbook info comes first from the writers then say so. Personally, I think this is common sense. I mean how would they know how strong Sinister was in the beginning before he ever showed limits to his physical strength (or even showed any physical strength whatsoever)? That is because the original creator of him already knew how strong he is. This info went straight to the handbook. Why don't you write Marvel for more info (or read their column on how they create handbooks).

Silent Master
Anything specific?

xmarksthespot
Characters tend to be around a while before they receive an OHOTMU entry, which aren't written by actual comic authors. The comic is pretty much always the primary source, at least on KMC.

h1a8
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Characters tend to be around a while before they receive an OHOTMU entry, which aren't written by actual comic authors. The comic is pretty much always the primary source, at least on KMC.

The key world is 'tend' as this isn't always the case.
You must know that some handbook writers are indeed comic writers (or were) and that the original writers of a character is sometimes consulted (over the comic). Meaning, the original writers give a lot of input to the handbooks.

There are character's that had absolutely no strength feats prior to their entry in OHOTMU. But the handbook gave them a specific strength (I'm referring to under class 100 characters) for that character. This info on that character's strength had to come from the original writers (not the comic). Thus that stat is the primary source.

Comics are wrong sometimes. They have errors, contradictions, and other things. Handbooks sometimes even average the feats (trying to negotiate the contradictions) which in itself is sound.

Let's not get off track now. I'm in no way am arguing that handbooks>>comics.

My point is that there exist instances when handbooks are just as valid as or overrule comics.

These instances are:

1. A Handbook piece of info is valid if it doesn't contradict the same info in the comics and the comics doesn't contradict themselves on that info. Meaning, the handbook is wrong only if it contradicts the non-contradicting evidence in comics.

2. If the comic contains an error or contradiction then the handbook is
the deciding judge of what's what. Meaning, since the comic can't be right and we need a deciding factor to continue the debate the handbook is that factor since it is the closest (and only) thing we have
to the truth.

3. If the comic fails to explain a character in completion (or at all) or fails to show all the powers and limits (if they exist) of that character then if the handbook list those things then the handbook info is valid. As doing this doesn't really contradict the comic (but adds on to it).


With that said,
1. says that handbook info can be used
if it doesn't disagree with the soundness of the comics. So I guess you would translate that to comics>>> or equal to handbooks.

2. shows the only way that handbooks>comics

3. shows that handbooks can add to comics and thus the added info wasn't secondary from the comic but from the writers.

If you disagree with any of the numbers state which one and why.

Silent Master
Stength listings in handbooks are almost never accurate.

h1a8
Originally posted by Silent Master
Stength listings in handbooks are almost never accurate. False, they're more accurate than not. I can even prove
it.

thadarknite84
It's hard to put one over another. A handbook can say someone has class 100 strength. But you wouldn't understand how strong class 100 is unless you see someone display that level of strength in a comic book. So to me, comics and handbooks are both important. But I do agree that comic books can be sometimes inconstant with characters powers.

Silent Master
Originally posted by h1a8
False, they're more accurate than not. I can even prove
it.

No, you can't.

Phantom Zone
Originally posted by h1a8
Prehaps. But comics are sometimes a thirded source. Thus sometimes handbooks>>>comics.

Yeah sometimes most of the time comics are the primary source.

h1a8
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Yeah sometimes most of the time comics are the primary source.

I can agree with that. That is why I said that the handbook is only valid if it doesn't contradict the soundness of the comics. Wouldn't that mean comics>>>>handbooks most of the time?

Phantom Zone
Originally posted by h1a8
I can agree with that. That is why I said that the handbook is only valid if it doesn't contradict the soundness of the comics. Wouldn't that mean comics>>>>handbooks most of the time?

Yeah.

The Great Galen
I'd say Cap gets raped within the first couple of minutes...complete spite.

OneDumbG0
Even Prometheus would say: no

As stated on the first page, Cap has already defeated a walking plot device named Cache who essentially downloaded fighting styles exactly like Prometheus does. Hell, Cap also beats Taskmaster whose special trait is to memorize his opponent's every fighting move. That should be more than enough reason to believe that Cap at least isn't "raped." Prometheus' weapons would be as useless as all of Cap's other tech foes' weapons are.

If... and only if... Prometheus had Cap's fighting style downloaded, would this turn out bad for Cap. But the thread doesn't state that and we assume only basic knowledge. Shiva was only defeated because she thought Prometheus' files on her were outdated and they weren't. We saw how Iron Man remained untouched and countered all of Cap's blows in 'Civil War.' But let's not delude ourselves into thinking Prometheus is anywhere near as strong or durable as Iron Man anyway. Either way, if you want to make a thread that states Prometheus has downloaded all of Cap's skills, make one. Otherwise, Cap's pretty good here. Your claims of spite are nonsense.

cmack
captain america wins this 7/10

Silent Master
Originally posted by The Great Galen
I'd say Cap gets raped within the first couple of minutes...complete spite.

You realize that Cap has already beaten him, right?

Cap has also beaten Cache, a being that had even more downloaded styles than Prom.

The Great Galen
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Even Prometheus would say: no

As stated on the first page, Cap has already defeated a walking plot device named Cache who essentially downloaded fighting styles exactly like Prometheus does. Hell, Cap also beats Taskmaster whose special trait is to memorize his opponent's every fighting move. That should be more than enough reason to believe that Cap at least isn't "raped." Prometheus' weapons would be as useless as all of Cap's other tech foes' weapons are.

If... and only if... Prometheus had Cap's fighting style downloaded, would this turn out bad for Cap. But the thread doesn't state that and we assume only basic knowledge. Shiva was only defeated because she thought Prometheus' files on her were outdated and they weren't. We saw how Iron Man remained untouched and countered all of Cap's blows in 'Civil War.' But let's not delude ourselves into thinking Prometheus is anywhere near as strong or durable as Iron Man anyway. Either way, if you want to make a thread that states Prometheus has downloaded all of Cap's skills, make one. Otherwise, Cap's pretty good here. Your claims of spite are nonsense.

Were u being serious or not...I know ur smart enough to realize how badly this turns out for CA but I cant understand why u would think he even stands a chance. Oh and by the way Prom>>>>Cache.

Silent Master
The only way this turns out bad for Cap is if you ignore the fact that Cap has already beaten him and has betaen those with even more downloaded styles(Cache).

The Great Galen
Cache isn't anywhere near as good as prometheus though..soooo

Silent Master
IYO only, not like it matters much since Cap has also beaten Prom.

Phantom Zone
Originally posted by The Great Galen
Cache isn't anywhere near as good as prometheus though..soooo

Yeah lets just assume that. Anyways he beaten Taskmaster as well.

-K-M-
Cap has also needed the help from the Power Pack to take on Taskmaster another time shifty

Phantom Zone
Originally posted by -K-M-
Cap has also needed the help from the Power Pack to take on Taskmaster another time shifty

hey I dont even think thats canon...

Daredevil1
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
hey I dont even think thats canon...


Its not cannon.

-K-M-
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
hey I dont even think thats canon...

*shrugs* Power Pack lately has been said to be canon as their trying to cross it over to the main U, but who knows.

Daredevil1
Originally posted by -K-M-
*shrugs* Power Pack lately has been said to be canon, but who knows.


Proof?

-K-M-
Originally posted by Daredevil1
Proof?

JUst an interview saying the exact samething that their trying to bring it to the main universe, as before they were in their own universe. Wether their doing it, I don't know hence the shrug

Phantom Zone
Originally posted by Daredevil1
Its not cannon.

*phew*

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