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Set in the bespine carbonite freezing chamber. who wins

Luke

Sideous.

well... luke does some fancy flipping heck move and flies around the arena farting. then he shoots force judgement out of his butt and fire at the same time needless to say, moth yoda and mace explode from the godlike powers of luke.

...

This would not be effortless for Skywalker, as he is facing two of the foremost duelists in the history of the Jedi Order. Yoda has had eight centuries of experience and training in the Force and combat, formal training that is arguably superior to the scraps and shambles that Skywalker has had to work with following Palpatine's purge. Likewise, Mace Windu is the ultimate master of the most unpredictable and deadly of the seven classical lightsaber forms.

He would win, but it wouldn't be easy.

He as in luke?

Originally posted by skywalker833
He as in luke?

Um... yes.

Agreed, luke has plenty of skill and power to hold them both off, he would win and it would be a pretty close match.

You're...a strange one....

Look, you dont even know me. I'm new to this whole thing. It would be nice if you guys just gave me a break. We all have one thing in common: we love star wars.

My, aren't you flying off the handle for such a small post...

No, no one here knows you, but there's no need for you to play the victim and lash out just yet. No one's flaming you or trying to get you banned.

Around here, respect is earned, not immediately given. It's like that in all established online and real life communities. If you insist on being overly sensitive and posting like that, you won't find that respect easily or quick enough, trust me. Just ignore the people who irk you and do what you want to do, so long as it's not against the forum rules and you'll be just fine.

Thanks for the advice. *man it seems like ive said that 100 times, lol*

No problem. KMC takes some getting used to, and it's not for the light of heart, but if you like SW, and you like to talk about it, this is one of the best places.

Yeah.

Anyway, anyone have arguments?

Yoda himself would be Luke's greatest challenge. adding Mace Windu is overkill.

Are you sure? this is NJO luke...

I wouldn't dismiss Yoda in any fight, and bringing in Mace Windu is even moreso amazing. Both of them are peerless in the PT era, and while Luke has amazing potential and powers in his own era, I just don't see him owning two amazing Jedi Masters.

The problem is...Luke is more amazing than either of them...this may be a somewhat decent fight, but it'd take more than them to bring him down

Not to dismiss you out of hand, but can you perhaps elaborate on why he's so damn uber? I mean, more uber than Yoda and Mace.

Well, his exceptional force powers (to the extent of being able to rip an engine out of a star destroyer,) the ability to wedge himself in the heart of the force to block Raynar Thul's power channeled with the Kliks (Which essentially made him immovable), his combat abilities (Slicing through an army of Vong to eliminate numerous elite slayers on his own when Kyp freaking Durron couldn't even take an injured and dying one, is described as moving so insanely fast, he might as well have been wielding twenty sabers in place of one, took out Shimrra in a straight up fight, as well in the Black Fleet crisis, having enough power to:
A. rebuild his father's CASTLE and then shatter it piece by piece using only the force
B. Cloaking an entire planet from sight and the Force and then leaving it in a state to last forever.

Not counting the boosts he's receive from increasing his knowledge from the Tedryn Holocron, Arca's holocron and many others. When it comes to it, Luke is a monster by NJO

Hm, that works better.

I read that part of the Black Fleet Crisis quickly at Barnes and Noble. It was pretty damn uber.

I'm going to play devil's advocate here...



Yoda has displayed the ability to keep a room pressurized during a breach as in Dark Rendenvouz. While no doubt ripping a Star Destroyer's engine out is impressive (Assuming here that the context is not PIS, or misconstrued; I would like to hear much more about the specifics if you would please), Yoda could potentially do the same. He could lift an X-Wing that was partially submerged in a swamp, throw around senate pods which must weight a good ton or so, and catch the crane Dooku threw in AotC. He also does a fine job with the missile in DR, too.



According to Nebaris' post, this was a plot device. While I note that Nebaris is not the most respected individual here, I think this instance should be properly explained. Was Luke boosted? Was it his own raw power stacked? How does this apply to a Force battle against two noted powerful Jedi Masters.



Again, Nebaris' fresh take on this makes me doubt. I would like to hear more specifics. Nebaris countered that the Vong's primary advantage is being unable to be properly sensed in the Force, but in this instance Luke was boosted and could actually sense them, making their one advantage null. What do you say to this? Likewise, Kyp didn't have this same advantage, or so I've been told. And how can we substantiate Shimrra as a fighter? What were the circumstances of the fight? Was Luke boosted then too?



1. What are the circumstances? How long did this take? Why is building a castle and then destroying it somehow better than the TK displayed by PT Jedi Masters? Dooku could rip chunks from a ceiling, break a huge crane in seconds, Yoda could deflect missiles, hold in oxygen from the incredibly strong pull of space, and lift an X-Wing as easily as breath. None of them have ever had to really build anything using the Force, but what's to say they didn't have the ability? Qui-Gon and padawan Obi-Wan actually deactivate droids internally using the Force in TPM, and Qui-Gon manipulates rolling dice as easy as can be.

2. What are the conditions of this cloaking ability? What are its limitations? How difficult was it supposed to be? We see people making massive illusions all the time, from Naga Sadow to the weakling Aleema. Can they defeat Yoda and Mace by virtue of having a unique ability?



Substantiate the knowledge gained from these sources. How does it compare with Yoda having the entire Jedi library at his disposal for 800 plus years? How can this knowledge assist him in defeating both Mace Windu and Yoda at once?

A lot of questions need to be asked, before the fight can just be given over to one side or the other. Burden of proof, if you will. I'd like thinks properly substantiated, with sources and specifics, not "I read somewhere" or "someone told me" type answers, because we all tend to remember things differently. I had forgotten portions of Shatterpoint and I read it two months ago.

No offense, Janus, but the point regarding Darth Vader's fortress is ridiculous. None of the feats of telekinesis that you've cited compares to reconstructing an enormous castle with only the Force and then destroying it, handling the weight involved and the precision and control. But I don't recall the length of time it took.


Edit: The Yuuzhan Vong are anamalous. Essentially, they exist within the Force, but cannot be sensed on the level of the Force that the Jedi were functioning, thus Vergere's cryptic remarks and Jacen's conclusion that the Force must be "expanded".

Which makes your objection moot, Escape. If you don't even know the specifics of it, how can you call my concern invalid? If you sat Qui-Gon Jinn down, he could likely remake a castle from existing materials. Yoda? Most definitely. The amount of Force power and precision required to divert an oncoming missile or deactivate a droid, or even still stabilize a vacuum is goddamn impressive. The latter feat Yoda did instantly while in combat, no less.

Again, substantiate how the building and destruction of Vader's castle was monumentally better than the respective feats and powers of Mace and Yoda. Then further substantiate how it has a bearing on this fight using source.

If you can't do that, don't support the claim. This is pretty evident, don't you think?

Sure. If you give him a few days and the services of the Republic's finest construction company. All I don't know the specifics of is the time it took, not exactly lagging on anything else. Now, in the meantime, I'm sure you'll make a spectacular argument for Qui-Gon Jinn's telekinesis and how it compares. I'll take a look when I get back.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
I'm going to play devil's advocate here...



Yoda has displayed the ability to keep a room pressurized during a breach as in Dark Rendenvouz. While no doubt ripping a Star Destroyer's engine out is impressive (Assuming here that the context is not PIS, or misconstrued; I would like to hear much more about the specifics if you would please), Yoda could potentially do the same. He could lift an X-Wing that was partially submerged in a swamp, throw around senate pods which must weight a good ton or so, and catch the crane Dooku threw in AotC. He also does a fine job with the missile in DR, too.
There's really nothing to it with Luke there...he just does it. No prep, no hesitation, no exhaustion. Yoda MIGHT potentially do the same, but he has not. And Luke, with the force, survived a point blank explosion in his X-wing cockpit as well. Or bringing down an AT AT...
The fact of the matter is Yoda might have that ability, but he has not demonstrated it



Luke was no different than he usually was, no. So, no boosts. Imagine if either tries to use the Force offensively on him...it's going to be blocked without effort.
It's rreally simple: Raynar tries to use the power against Luke, Luke raises his hand and wedges himself in the heart of the force, becoming, in the author's words, immobile



Nebaris is a liar, first and foremost. Luke is able to 'sense' them not because of a boost, but his attunement to the Unifying Force now. This doesn't negate the average Vong ability of exceptional combat prowess

The fact of the matter is, Kyp and Luke have had five years to get used to fighting the Vong. Kyp cuts down plenty on his own...but one slayer is two much for him. Luke effortlessly butchers quite a few in moments.
Luke's actual power, offhand, had not increased by this atunement

Luke was exhausted, actually. And Shimrra, on his own, is the greatest warrior of the Yuuzhan Vong, genetically enhanced to hell and back and physically more powerful than any other Vong. The weakest of which, Shamed Ones, have twice the strength of a powerful, healthy male.
Jacen's observation of Shimrra as a fighter demonstrates him as nothing short of exceptional.



you can't compare the scale even slightly.
Luke assembles a castle with no visual effort, simply to explore it. When he is finished, with as little effort, he shatters it piece by piece.
By Courtship of Princess Leia, Luke is also able to fly the Falcon using only the Force, He is also able, with a single gesture, annihilate an army of advanced battle droids.
And manhandling giant castles and star destroyers is somewhat grander than chunks from the ceiling and missiles

By the standards of most Fallanassi, basic illusions of such are rather difficult indeed. Luke literally cloaks an entire planet in such a way that it is permanent. I am talking absolute shielding from sight and in the force as well. Aleema and Naga's Sith magic comes up rather short in such a way, given that Luke is able to leave the illusion up permanently, his distractions not breaking the shield. He is also able to create a practical fleet of illusionary ships. (Dark Nest for the latter, Black Fleet for the former)



Naturally, his knowledge will come up short to Yoda, but he has been gifted enough to study from some of the greatest sources the Jedi order has ever known. It has taught him a great deal of the Force, deepened his understanding and mastery, and unlike Mace and Yoda, he was privy to things like the Telos Holocron and other Sith sources under Palpatine and his stint with the Dark Side. (Dark Empire, Essential Guide to alien races and JvS)
His knowledge of the Force, and his mastery of it is considerable. At times, he is described as a sheer maelstrom of power in the force, both to Leia and the Solo Twins (Circa Dark Empire and NJO respectively)

Surely.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
He is also able, with a single gesture, annihilate an army of advanced battle droids.We only see him destroy four or five, IIRC.

I'm pretty sure he only created one replica of Mara's ship, and the effort burned him out so much that his features were temporarily distorted to the point that he looked like Palpatine.

EDIT

Originally posted by Faunus
We only see him destroy four or five, IIRC.
I believe the audiobook substantiates it
And it's worth noting that such a difficult ability came naturally to Luke


If someone could check that, much obliged.

You're correct; I purchased the entire Swarm War trilogy, read two thirds of the first book, got bored, and stopped. It's now collecting dust and other strange organisms on by bookshelf. Anyways, Skywalker was in immediate danger and had to quickly summon an illusion of the ship, and unfamiliarity with the technique combined with the sudden demand for its use began to cause considerable damage to his body, drawing on more energy than his body was conditioned to use, and the book said "according to Mara, this is what had happened to Palpatine". Though Wookipedia mentions that he later mastered the technique in the trilogy to the point that such an effect did not take place.

Luke's profile.

If even half of that shit listed under his Force powers is true, I have to concede. That's just a ridiculous laundry list of feats.

Could someone possibly post the scan of Leia remarking on how fast Luke and Palps are fighting in DE?

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Luke's profile.

If even half of that shit listed under his Force powers is true, I have to concede. That's just a ridiculous laundry list of feats.

I've been meaning to ask you, Janus, what you think of two particular characters: Gilad Pellaeon and Boba Fett.

Palleon= Zahn's best creation besides Mara imo.

Oh- Janus. Right.

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
Palleon= Zahn's best creation besides Mara imo.

Oh- Janus. Right.

First, I already know how you feel about them. Second, accept my invitation on MSN. Third, according to the list of feats, the source in question is the Dark Empire audiobook.

Pellaeon is pretty cool. Boba Fett is the worst thing ever to hit SW series. Seriously, Revelation makes me want to puke.

Fett was good until a blind Han Solo came around and pwned his ass. It was all downhill from there...

But nothing could put him below LotF's Jacen (see Darth Sexy) or Lumiya (WTF @ furce Fantums?!). And DE Sidious = fail.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Pellaeon is pretty cool. Boba Fett is the worst thing ever to hit SW series. Seriously, Revelation makes me want to puke.

Revelation was pure garbage, as is LOTF as a whole. On another note, I'm surprised that after all of these years, you just now look at the wikipedia feats for Luke. I have most of the sources for the feats. The rest are in various NJO books.

Originally posted by Gideon
First, I already know how you feel about them. Second, accept my invitation on MSN. Third, according to the list of feats, the source in question is the Dark Empire audiobook.

First, alright, no need to bring my mother into this. Second, I don't have MSN on this computer. Third, well... I don't have the audiobook... a person on another forum is requesting the scan, is all.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Revelation was pure garbage, as is LOTF as a whole. On another note, I'm surprised that after all of these years, you just now look at the wikipedia feats for Luke. I have most of the sources for the feats. The rest are in various NJO books.

All I got to say is that Jaina better not all of sudden have these uber powers from training with Fett that puts her in Jacen's level.

Then you should plan on being disappointed.

Originally posted by Faunus
Then you should plan on being disappointed.

Unfortunately I am.

Karen Traviss is simply terrible. I plan on sending Faunus and Blaxican to... persuade her... to find an alternative career. By means of torture or even sex.

...

Ew.

Ew?

negro you gay.

EDIT- Oh.. Karren Traviss. Ew...

This coming from the guy who said black men don't smile.

And I heard you'll be having rough sex with Karen Traviss sometime soon... Good luck with that.

She'll probably wear the pants in the relationship too.

Ah well, I suppose the rough mandalorian treatment might do me some good. Toughen me up. And I could always put a bag over her head, pretend it's your Mom

Only a black man...

HA HA ha...

Reported. haermm

I don't know what you guys are on about when you talk about Jacen's 'Uber magic power's'. The guy gets his ass pwned in every book, I actually feel sorry for him sometimes. And his force feats aren't all that impressive when compared to some others. In my eye's the best thing he's done was when he completely curpstomped Kyle Katarn and 3 other Jedi.

That was awesome.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Luke's profile.

If even half of that shit listed under his Force powers is true, I have to concede. That's just a ridiculous laundry list of feats.

Unfortunately many of those are inaccurate..half of it? I dunno. I just saw this post a long time ago...



I'm currently listening to the whole DE and Black Fleet series. I'll comment on my observations when I'm through.

However, here are lines about the Vader Fortress feat:

Black Fleet #1 - Before the Storm
He sat down on the sand, cross-legged and straight-backed, and brought his hands together in his lap, fingertip to fingertip. Concentrating on a picture in his mind, Luke dipped his awareness deeply into the flow of the Force beneath him. With eyes that looked inward, he found what he was seeking, like flaws in a near-perfect crystal. He extended his will.

The sand around him stirred. The rocks shuddered, shifted, then began to rise from the sea and the sand as though sifted from them by an invisible screen.

Swirling through the air as they sought their place, the stones took shape as broken wall and shattered foundation, as arch and gate and dome-the ruins of Darth Vader's fortress retreat. It hung in the air around and above Luke as it had once stood atop the cliff, a dark-faced and forbidding edifice.

Black Fleet #1 - Before the Storm
Now the stones swirled again in the air, joined by others plucked from the sea and stripped from the face of the cliff. Now broken edge fused against broken edge, and the dark faces of the rock lightened as their mineral structure was reshuffled. Now heavy rock walls and floors thinned to an airy elegance as if they were clay in a potter's press.

Now a tower stretched skyward until it rose above the edge of the cliff.

When it was done, the last gap closed, the last rock transformed, the structure securely perched just above the sand on pillars of stone extending down to the bedrock, Luke brought the E-wing down the beach and nestled it in the chamber he had made for it. It was not a door that closed over the opening, though, but a solid wall that closed out not only the wind and the cold, but the world.


Black Fleet #3 - Tyrant's Test
Extending his hands and his will, Luke found the points of greatest stress within the structure and pressed upon them, found the points of greatest fragility and sundered them. With a roar that momentarily rivaled the wind, the hermitage collapsed in on itself, crushing the fighter still sealed within it.

But that was not enough to satisfy Luke, not enough to forever erase the temptation. One after another, he raised the pieces of the ruined hermitage, the broken ship, up out of the sand and into the air, crumbling them with the force of his thoughts, until it was a dense, swirling cloud of pebble-sized fragments and metal bits.

Then, with a final, explosive effort of will, he hurled the cloud of debris far out beyond the breakers, where it rained down on the churning water and vanished from sight.