Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

All tournament participants must vote. Do not abstain. Non-participants/regular viewers must have 1000 posts on KMC forums to vote. Voting is not allowed until the first 10 hours of the match has elapsed.


Typhus



vs

id369

Originally posted by id369
I am purchasing the followings.
2 – Prep Time, Lv. 2: One(1) hour spent in either a mystic sanctum or scientific lab
4 – Power Boosting: 4 points for each character boosted and if this is done in prep, it is added on to prep points
5 – Knowledge of the Opposition, Lv. 3: Extensive knowledge of all opponents on opposing team including strengths and weaknesses


What I have bought.
Amlagam Name: The Rapture
6 - Shaman X-Man (Mind)
4- Jan Grey (Body)
4 – Amalgam, Lv. 1: A combination of two characters

Total 25 points


2007 X-Men - Messiah Complex (Mutant Files)
http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/8558/xmenmessiahcomplexmutanga8.th.jpghttp://img238.imageshack.us/img238/5449/xmenmessiahcomplexmutanhb8.th.jpghttp://img136.imageshack.us/img136/6382/xmenmessiahcomplexmutancg0.th.jpghttp://img223.imageshack.us/img223/5886/xmenmessiahcomplexmutanoi4.th.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Grey
http://www.marvel.com/universe/Phoenix_(Jean_Grey)


Official Hand Book of the Marvel Universe (2004)
Book of the Dead.
http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/8991/46lx9.th.jpg
http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/8991/46lx9.jpg


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-Man
http://www.marvel.com/universe/X-Man

Area

Amlagam Name: The Rapture
6 - Shaman X-Man (Mind)
4- Jean Grey (Body)
4 – Amalgam, Lv. 1: A combination of two characters

Options bought.
2 – Prep Time, Lv. 2: One(1) hour spent in either a mystic sanctum or scientific lab
4 – Power Boosting: 4 points for each character boosted and if this is done in prep, it is added on to prep points
5 – Knowledge of the Opposition, Lv. 3: Extensive knowledge of all opponents on opposing team including strengths and weaknesses


Prep Area ~ X-Mansion’s “Cerebra Room”
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/857/phntfs2.jpg
Unleash Nate’s Full Potential.
The Rapture proceeds to unleash Nate Grey Full Potential. The Rapture does not have to worry of the negative repercussions, of unleashing Phoenix Level of powers Cable #29 ]; thanks to the Omega Level Body U. X-Men #135 ].

Cerebra
Now The Rapture places here self in Cerebra to farther augment her mental powers.

Recreate Jean Grey.
http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/817/xman03714gn6.th.jpg
I will know recreate a feat done in X-Man issue 5 and 37. No matter/organic manipulation has taken place. The Psionic Essence is pulled from the astral plane, and inserted in the psionic shell you call her body.

Reforming a shattered mind
http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/1091/16po7.th.jpghttp://img151.imageshack.us/img151/415/17tp2.th.jpghttp://img182.imageshack.us/img182/7835/18kb3.th.jpg

The Rapture will now heal Jean mind. She will link her mind across her shattered self, and reform it into a complete one. Jean’s mind is now complete, the greater benefice is the Phoenix Conscious now intertwines with Jeans.

Fusion
I will now pull of a feat done from issue X-Man #70, 73, and 74. The Rapture and Jean Grey will merge with one another to become a single being.
X-Man #73 ~ ]~ ]~ ]

Note: No organic transmutation has taken place. Upon unleashing Nate’s Full power, The Rapture became a being of pure energy. Jean Grey is a being of Pure energy, with Jean Grey Conscious.


Unleash White Phoenix of the Crown
With Phoenix/Jean conscious merged, The Rapture will call forth the Phoenix Force. No surprise, what was the point of scouring across the galaxy only to locate them and reestablish a link with one another?


I now end my prep by placing a TK Shield, making a psionic armor and reinforcing mental shields. I finish up by merging between two planes. Co Existing in the astral/physical plane at the same time.

The Battle Plan
Plan is simple, I gets to play keep away. Unleashing wave after wave, of AoE attacks at full strength (Cosmic, Telekinetic, Raw Psionic, and Telepathic). Basically I just lay down the hammer on the opposing side.

Things to keep in mind.

4 – Power Boosting: 4 points for each character boosted and if this is done in prep, it is added on to prep points.

Are you a fan of power stacking? Ok lets run the numbers.

1 - Nate + Jean = More power. Yes if energies are identical no power stacking take place. However, with the option bought, it gets added on automatically.

2 - Nate Unleashed - Nate has Omega Level Powers, Jean has an omega level body. What happens when you unleash its full power? The character ascends, into a higher form. No longer human but living energy, and with a crap load of power.

3 - Attain White Phoenix of the Crown - Not only do I add on Abstract level power, but powers that are stated to be Phoenix level are naturally augmented .

4 - Psi Character + Astral Plan = More power - In case you didn’t know, if a character with a natural affinity to psi, shifts itself into the astral plane. Well he happens to gain a bonus amp.

Note: Remember I drafted Shaman X-Man who are 2 Nates that merged to reconstruct each other bodies, and augment their abilities and powers.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Intangibility Haxed!
In my prep The Rapture merging between the astral and the physical plane X-Men/Onslaught ]. It’s a nice trick, it permits me to co-exist in both planes at the same time The Uncanny X-Men #336 ]. In the astral realm I retain full shields, and abilities and what not. While in the physical plane, I remain invisible and ethereal. However I can exact my full force, in the physical world and still retain invisible & ethereal features. It’s basically a I higher form of intangibility (the highest one I ever come cross XD) X-Man/Flashback ]. But there is an added plus, for Psi characters like me that remain in the astral world we get to siphon more energy from the astral realm making us more powerful Cable #35 ].

-------------------------------------------------------------
Telepathy is no longer an option.
All telepathy is governed through the astral plane, aka the plane that is formed from the collective conscious of all living sentient beings within the universe. You want to link minds, it runs its course through the astral plane, let it be done through Psychic, mystic, or even power of cosmic.

As you may now, every time young Nate flexed its psi muscle’s it created ripples in the astral plane. What happens when a powerful psionic character enters the Astral Plane and flexes his muscles? It creates a massive interference, disrupting any form of telepathy within the vicinity. Bullshit right, I am making up claims….. or am I? I know so because we have seen this happen, take note from Onslaught a psionic being, and the interface he put up that shunt all Earth Telepath's. Ok now take note, that is Onslaught at base, hardly an X-Man unleashed (which is the current situation). A more powerful psi, co-existing in the astral plane. And the battle field is less then the totality of the planet. Safe bet would be any one within the planet is going to be shunt from using its means to apply any form of telepathy.

So yes locating The Rapture is going to be a task.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Contingency Plan, What if an actual confrontation?
I would like to know how one will be capable of pounding living energy to death? Hmmm…at least I don’t have to worry about physical attacks. And lets disregard the power stacking for the moment (some of it). During prep, I placed the followings:

Mental Shields: You have to keep in mind I have mental shields, no form of mind meddling will take place.

Telekinetic Shield: They are suffice enough to hold off attacks from M’Kran Crystal Gurdian, who power was augmented by the Nexus of Reality itself.
http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/9165/xman55p14sc9.th.jpghttp://img409.imageshack.us/img409/7796/xman55p15iy0.th.jpg

Golden Psionic Armor: The same armor that was given to Hulk, is now being worn by The Rapture. Its stat boost was enough to trade blows with Thanos, and win the exchange.
http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/9162/xmanannual1998page37imafk1.th.jpghttp://img371.imageshack.us/img371/1346/xmanannual1998page38imadq7.th.jpghttp://img377.imageshack.us/img377/1570/xmanannual1998page39imano9.th.jpg

Note: Those are independent constructs, The Rapture can go into intangimode if need be.

Sorry I'm late, was at work and didn't have access to my scans. Anyway it says too many images - does anyone know what the limit for thumbnails is? Thanks in advance.

(Nevermind, I think I got it) Ok, Part 1
Alright, I’m going to have a lot of scans, but they’re all relevant. Each one depicts what I’m explaining or demonstrates a power (so no one underestimates my team). So let’s get it on.

Prep

Ok, first things first. This is space, the Heralds favorite battleground, and the battle is focused around a giant asteroid. So for my first move I’ll have Terrax shatter the asteroid. Here is is shattering a planet, so in this case it’ll be cake.
http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/8761/annihilationheraldsofgayg8.th.jpg http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/6949/annihilationheraldsofgafx1.th.jpg


And now I have a battlefield full of weapons for Terrax since he can control the comets.

http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/4007/ff24202go5.th.jpg


Battle

Terrax
Terrax will play support pelting and crushing the enemy between asteroids. Now, that might not do too much damage but being slammed between two house sized rocks will certainly slow you down. He’ll also be mixing it up with blasts of power cosmic. And just so everyone is clear on the extent of Terrax’s power to move rock, here is the feat where he lifts friggan Manhattan into space:
http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/399/ff24214rd1.th.jpg http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/2716/ff24215sb0.th.jpg http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/954/ff24222zm0.th.jpg

Stardust
Now, Stardust will be the pointman because it isn’t hurt by physical attacks and can reform it’s body.

Explaining it:
http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/4139/annihilationheraldsofgaha5.th.jpg

In practice:
http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/6769/stormbreaker0310re3.th.jpg http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/1664/stormbreaker0311sy1.th.jpg http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/2637/stormbreaker0316lo1.th.jpg


And not only is Stardust incredibly durable, but powerful and fast as well. Here it is slamming Asteroth and Beta Ray through a planet’s core and the planet blowing up because of it:
http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/1550/stormbreaker41415cm1.th.jpg http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/8270/stormbreaker41617bu3.th.jpg

Aside from the standard Herald abilities, Stardust can also open portals, and although I didn’t purchase BFR, the portals pull would certainly slow you down since you would have to avoid them of accidently BFR yourself from the battlefield. Here they are:
http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/2831/stormbreaker0320zn6.th.jpg http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/3551/stormbreaker032122ux3.th.jpg

Morg
Ah Morg, what can I say about him that everyone doesn’t already know. Morg will back up Stardust, demolishing the opponent with powerful cosmic attacks.

Just for a power gauge - here he is cutting clean through Surfer’s board and subsequently destroying a planet with their impact:
http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/8904/silversurferannual0728jx6.th.jpg http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/5720/silversurferannual0729jd6.th.jpg http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/9752/silversurferannual07303ur5.th.jpg

Morg is my heavy hitter, I already posted a scan in the discussion thread of Surfer beating Cable, and Morg is Surfer’s better; in combat ESPECIALLY. The first time Surfer fought Morg, one zap from Morg was enough to down him. There’s no way he’s going down without a fight, and I still have 3 other Heralds supporting him.

Redshift
Finally we have Redshift. He’ll be running a general defense, slashing open portals to redirect and counter attacks:
http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/5467/galactusthedevourer208cm9.th.jpg http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/3428/galactusthedevourer209ak2.th.jpg

And again, he has all the standard Herald powers as well, so he can also take over if things get dicey for Morg or Stardust.


In Conclusion
Anyway, I can see your guy standing up to ONE of my Heralds, but the fact is, he’s dealing with 4. Each with unique and powerful abilities on top of their already impressive power cosmic. There’s just no way he can repel an attack of this magnitude. I think you’re severely overestimating your character.

A word on the Phoenix Strategy...
I believe I read this somewhere in the rules...

"no one can be summoned, even from other dimensions, to help. The locations however do have their natural inhabitants (except evacuated cities), so characters who can control animals can still call on them to help. Opponents start on opposite sides of the battlefield. “

It’s flat out against the rules PERIOD.

Originally posted by Typhus


A word on the Phoenix Strategy...
I believe I read this somewhere in the rules...

"no one can be summoned, even from other dimensions, to help. The locations however do have their natural inhabitants (except evacuated cities), so characters who can control animals can still call on them to help. Opponents start on opposite sides of the battlefield. “

It’s flat out against the rules PERIOD.

Ah well, this was submitted to Evangiline before I finished my drafts, and again prior to my match. As far as I am concerned I am not summoning, but reestablishing a link to a power that rightfully belongs to Jean.

As last seen Jean and Phoenix truly merged with on another. This is seen, and stated in the comic and reinforced in bold print on the recent official bio. Incidentally the bio is also posted at the top of the page.

Like I stated before, I did not draft Jean with the phoenix force, but I did take advantage of the rule set. And re-establish her shattered mind which incidentally intertwines with the phoenix.

But if this is hard to swallow, I shall put it out like this. If Evan comes in and deems this as a violation, I concede to the match entirely.

So what, if you're instant win card doesn't work you quit? Huh... And Evangel doesn't NEED to come into this match and say anything because clearly its a violation of the rules. It failed in your match against King Kandy, so I have no idea why you are even trying it now. Besides, you don't even have Jeans mind, you only choose her BODY. You can't 'repair' something you never had to begin with.

Anyway you look at it, you're gaining a character for your team that you didn't draft - that breaks the rule about summoned help. By that logic I can have my Heralds send a signal to Galactus to some and devour the battlefield along with your character. Oh, I'm not summoning, I'm calling their master.

Anyway, I have to go out to dinner, I'll be back in a bit to debate.

Not to be arguing for id, but who is it that id is supposedly summoning?

The argument is, if I understand correctly, that you cannot reform a full Phoenix Force from Jean's body. There is some issue about Jean's mind being a piece of Phoenix so they are attempting to glue back the Phoenix Force and win with it.

Originally posted by Bentley
The argument is, if I understand correctly, that you cannot reform a full Phoenix Force from Jean's body. There is some issue about Jean's mind being a piece of Phoenix so they are attempting to glue back the Phoenix Force and win with it. So he's trying to "summon" a seperate piece of a character that he drafted?

Not precisely, the problem is that he drafted Jean's body but not her mind, so Typhus is arguing about the body not being a part of the Phoenix Force at all.

Ah well now that what we know what my foe was cooking up. I see the strategic planning was a success. Throwing attacks to the astral projection that is existing in the physical world is pointless as killing your own shadow.

You see when I merged between planes I co-exist in both at the same time. Though the one that is existing retain the features of an astral projection. No amount of any kind of punishment, is going to damage something such as an astral projection.

Luckily a safe haven was set in order to deal with the four weaker opponents.


Weaker Opponents?
Yes I said it, WEAKER. X-Man inferior, at a weaken state could fend off the Silver Surfer crushing his board in the process. Cable has admitted inferiority to Nate Grey even, if was not hindered by the T.O. And the comic states it one step farther and claims he is the ONLY fully functioning Nate in any reality. Mind you this is before Nate Grey merged to become stronger with his alternate Self.

Shaman X-Man by himself, is a match for a Herald class character. Not by my own opinion alone, this is apparent as a general concession in KMC due to its Tier Ranking.

What has happened now?
I duplex Jean power, on top of Nate
Unleash his potential which destroyed, Transcendent Level character.

That alone should be suffice to show that The Rapture is above any Herald type at this point. I will let you do the rest of the guess work.

Bentley & Creshosk -

The idea is this: Currently Jean is searching for fragments of herself and the phoenix. These fragments hold power along with the mind of both Jean/Phoenix.

What I am doing is interlocking all the fragments to unify the mind. Thus re-establish the link with the Phoenix Force in the same processes.

Similar Idiris, and how Nate interlocked and reformed her fractured mind, I did the same with Jean.


Am I violating the rules?
No because I drafted Jean, and I am simply communing with Jean psyche.

Am I taking advantage of the rule set?
Yes it’s the last incarnation of the character. Incidentally Jean and Phoenix conscious are intertwined with one another.

Originally posted by Typhus
Besides, you don't even have Jeans mind, you only choose her BODY. You can't 'repair' something you never had to begin with.



Recreate Jean Grey.
I will know recreate a feat done in X-Man issue 5 and 37. No matter/organic manipulation has taken place. The Psionic Essence is pulled from the astral plane, and inserted in the psionic shell you call her body.

All it takes is a stray thought, in the heat of the moment, to pull in the psionic essence that makes up Jean. This is the authentic Jean, minus the body (the body is a pisonic shell constructed by me). That’s how I got Jean and her Mind to work with.

Ok I just want to say, that if you think its going to take you a great deal of time to read what I write. It took me an even greater time to explain myself and pull out these scans. I am not a mind reader, and no one openly asks how I come up with my claims. So I am trying to cover all possible questions and leave no stone left unturned.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Why quote, when I can simply post the image of my conversation. http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/3051/prepqy8.jpg

Ok I am going to address the phoenix issue for one final time. You cant say, I don’t source or mislead any information since I take one step farther and post scans along with sourcing the issue from where the claim came from. I cant possibly do much more, after all I did take in mind all constructive criticism to make changes, along with submitting prep for approval.

----------------------------------------------------------

Background information that you must keep in mind.
Jean and Phoenix are truly merged.

From the official bio.
2007 X-Men - Messiah Complex (Mutant Files)
http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/8172/mergedfs7.th.jpg

Phoenix End Song
From Jeans and Phoenix comments and actions.
http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/3769/page14ox4.th.jpg

Jean and Phoenix retain memories of one another, problem is that its only fragments since it was shattered to billions of pieces.
http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/6498/xmes0101ro0.th.jpghttp://img338.imageshack.us/img338/1589/page15kc8.th.jpg

Even if you dismiss the plausibility of interlocking a shattered mind that retains the phoenix conscious. The fact that Jean and Phoenix have merged down to a conscious level must be respected. If not, than there is no point in reading on.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

What did I do?
I recreated Jean. I drafted Jean, so I am not adding some one new to the list. Incidentally according to the rule set, since no organic manipulation is taking place, and its done through my own means. I should not be violating the rule set to begin with. But what is and isn’t a violation has become a hot topic.

How did I recreate Jean?
The same way a Madelyne Pryor, a fragment of the Goblin Force, and Gwen Stacy?

What are the mechanics behind recreating someone?
Nate needs to have memory of the person he wishes to recrate. From their it pulls the psinoic essence, in the psionic shell Nate has created. Because the psionic essence is among many things (the mind for instance), it takes a form and life of its own.

Is this hard to pull off?
http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/5029/xman027large24lpmv2.th.jpghttp://img402.imageshack.us/img402/7028/xman03717az4.th.jpg
No according to Nate, all it takes is a stray thought, in the heat of the moment for him do so.

Ok you have Jean Grey in front of you, now what?
Similar to Madelyne Pryor case, where she suffered from a shattered mind. So does Jean in front of the Rapture. What the Rapture goes on to do is pull off a feat, he has shown to do on Jean. To merge one fragmented mind across herself to reform it that is it.

You must keep in mind that Nate has pulled off this feat before, and so has Jean (since I can do any TP/TK feat done by Jean). I just choose Nate’s last and most impressive one where he reforms the shattered mind on a Multi-Versal scale.


So you commune with your self?
For God Sakes, yes!?!? I drafted Jean for 4 points, and I am now pulling her psinonic essence to re-create her, thus work with mind.

So what happens next, you merged right?
Yes Nate has shown the ability to merge. Nate has shown the ability to do so in 3 instances. No organic transmutation took place. This is because Jean is nothing more then an independent construct, formed from solidified energy and its psionic essence. The Rapture has become living energy, thanks to unleashing its full potential.

How does the Phoenix fit in?
If you read the above, Jean and Phoenix are merged down to a conscious level. Reforming her mind, is tied in with reforming the Phoenix as well. Why settle for having the Phoenix Conscious, when you have re-establish a link to the Force?
http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/9981/merged2ky9.th.jpg

How can you be absolutely sure, that Jean and Phoenix retain memories from one another?
Aside from the fact that the comic state that they are merged.

Jean openly questions Phoenix if they have forgotten their mission, or in other words Jean remembers what Phoenix has forgotten. You also have the fact that the Phoenix retains memories of what happened in the future, where Jean goes of to obliterate an entire race (as shown in 4 issue arc Here Comes Tomorrow).

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/5453/rememberfp4.th.jpg


Wait so if you re-establish a link with the Phoenix you can call forth its power?
Apprently yes, the incident that took place in Here Comes Tomorrow.

Interference to the focal point at the top of her head, servers her connection to the Phoenix.
http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/8670/07wj9.jpg

With her own telepathic power, and due to her natural affinity to the Phoenix, She re-establishes her link to the phoenix and calls forth its power.
http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/8793/17ca7.jpg

Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe - Alternate Universes 2005
The incident is depicted and reinforced in the official bio.
http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/8001/19xq8.jpg

I’m surprised you’re still trying to put all your eggs in this Phoenix basket when it’s clearly ridiculous. I don’t know how much more clear I can make it. You’re trying to ‘re-establish a link’ that ISN'T THERE. Your character does not have Jean’s mind and cannot ‘reform the Phoenix’ to become whole. Your amalgam has Jean's body but is not Jean, simple as that. You’re totally misinterpreting how that’s been done before.

The fact is that the Phoenix is not in the battlefield before prep, and it CANNOT magically be in the battlefield after prep. Nice try, but this ‘rule bending’ is not as subtle as you’re trying to play it. It’s flat out breaking them and it’s ridiculous.

Anyway, addressing your Astral Projection. I seriously don’t understand what your scans prove. You have 3 seemingly unrelated events. So your character can exist in 2 planes at once. How exactly does that make my attacks useless? Surfer has used the power cosmic to simply disintegrate intangible enemies before. Shown here:
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/4278/fantasticfour07617bg0.th.jpg http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/2866/fantasticfour07619je7.th.jpg http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/2792/fantasticfour07620jh0.th.jpg
Child’s play.

And in your last scan Cable claims to be gaining energy from the astral plane, granted, but Hulk is still clearly hurting him. And Hulk has nowhere near the amount of versatility in power that my team has. Show me a scan of what you’re actually talking about and I’ll bite.

Anyway, forgive me if I sound ignorant, but I’m just a bit sketchy on the whole astral projection thing. I’ve shown that Stardust can basically open a portal to hell:
http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/3551/stormbreaker032122ux3.th.jpg
so how would this at all hinder my teams ability to combat you?

Finally, addressing your claim that locating your character would ‘be a task’ - well, to that I have two words: cosmic awareness.

I gained Jean Mind, by recreating Jean Grey. I thought I was clear on that?

I understand better now what Id wants to do, however, if he drafts Jean's body but not her mind, shouldn't getting her mind from the astral plane be summoning a new character?

Voting for id. Doesn't seem like summoning if they're just getting another part of the character that they already paid for.

I however do not see how all the fragments of the Phoenix Force belong to Jean's mind as a character. That would be like saying that an drafting an Imperiex probe could be used to use Imperiex in battle.

Originally posted by Bentley
I understand better now what Id wants to do, however, if he drafts Jean's body but not her mind, shouldn't getting her mind from the astral plane be summoning a new character?

I would argue that Its not, since I drafted Jean Grey in its entirety. What am I pulling from the astral plane? A character I already paid for.



--------------------------------------------------------------


I think most you will agree, that if I conceivably attained the Phoenix Force. The match is set, since 4 Heralds would never stand up an abstract level being. I understand that, no one in their right mind as a “participant”, would openly acknowledge it can be pulled off. Since you are inevitably admitted defeat.

On the other hand, I am aware that some of you might be confused or not convinced. If you have any questions, you can address them to me. I am even willing to submit some of the material that was sourced. However as far as continuing (in regards to the Phoenix): it can/cant pulled off or its valid/invalid, would only diminish this topic into circular logic.

In short I will continue to debate with out the Phoenix for 2 reasons.
A) If you agree, or favor it is well within possibility to attain it due to my prep. Then Typhus has no real argument to counter overwhelming opponent (not that he will agree this anytime soon >_&gt.

B) To avoid circular logic, and make an argument that The Rapture in his own right is formidable with out it.
---------------------------------------------------------

@Typhus - I place much trust in my intangibility because you have not even addressed it properly. And please refrain from using any feat done by Silver Surfer. You and I know, that there is a learning curve in regards to how the power of cosmic is wielded. If Surfer is regarded as, an Elite Herald. Much has to do for him showing his capability, if not Goober would have drafted Stardust, and attempted to quantify any feat done from any Herald including the Surfer. Goober is a smart man, and didn’t do so for obvious reasons.

In regards to Portal’s and the Astral Plane.
If you think one can simply open a portal and enter the astral plane, you are gravely mistaken. The astral plane is not accessible in such a manner, even for Dr. Strange who is known for opening portal’s to reach “X” location; “MUST” use the astral form to enter the astral plane. This holds true to some of the wielders of the power of cosmic, Surfer for instance has never entered the astral plane unless it was in astral form.

If you want to say other wise, then I am calling you out. Show me “ANY” scan where your choice of Herald’s has entered the astral plane through a portal, and not in astral form.


Harming my self on the Physical Plane.
First off, it’s a feat done by the Surfer. Now try submitting a feat done by any of your choices. Now you have to understand that, you cant possibly harm something that retains no physiology to pain. Not the same as Martian Manhunter or Vision who phase their molecules in order to become intangible. It’s a projection in it of its self, try making your shadow scream in pain?

I know Nate can harm an astral projection, but only because he can pull them directly from the astral plan as seen with Xavier encounter. Now do any of “YOUR”, heralds have a feat to quantify? I sincerely doubt so, or else you would have posted it already.

Regarding Astral Plan Amp.
Yes Cable was still having trouble with Hulk (so to speak), however the amp is significant. Cable makes reference to its last encounter, where he was pushing himself (T.O. was going ape shit), and needed assistance from Storm. Ultimately, Cable nearly died from over exerting himself in efforts to pull off a big feat. Here and now, he is shown to handle Hulk with out assistance, and with out overexerting himself (T.O is seen stable).

Originally posted by Bentley
I however do not see how all the fragments of the Phoenix Force belong to Jean's mind as a character. That would be like saying that an drafting an Imperiex probe could be used to use Imperiex in battle.

Jean - 4 Points.
Jean in it of its self, holds no Phoenix Force due to the rule set. Ok fine.

Jean Links her mind to all shattered conscious of herself. She is linking her own mind. Ok Fine.

The Fragments to Jean’s conscious happen to reside within the Fragments of the Phoenix Force. The Phoenix Force and Jean within those fragments are one in the same since the day they fully merged.

Bullshit right? No its explained in the official bio, it is stated in End Song. You even see faint personalities of both Jean and Phoenix in the phoenix fragments in War Song. And Jean as White Phoenix of the Crown, was the Phoenix Conscious that guided Vulcan in the “What IF”.

So I ask you, what happens when Jean reforms her shattered self?

Voting for Typhus. Id369's plan is absolute bullshit.

I agree with Typhus's statement:
Originally posted by Typhus
Anyway you look at it, you're gaining a character for your team that you didn't draft - that breaks the rule about summoned help. By that logic I can have my Heralds send a signal to Galactus to some and devour the battlefield along with your character. Oh, I'm not summoning, I'm calling their master.

Oh but id369 rants "I bought Jean Grey." Yeah, you bought Jean Grey's body for 4 points to use as part of your amalgam. Hell, I don't even think Evangel94 would allow you to buy Jean Grey (body and mind) for 20 points if you claimed that buying her came with the Phoenix Force.

Id369 doesn't even have a back up plan:

Originally posted by id369
But if this is hard to swallow, I shall put it out like this. If Evan comes in and deems this as a violation, I concede to the match entirely.

Seriously what the hell? I think Typhus answered best:
Originally posted by Typhus
So what, if you're instant win card doesn't work you quit? Huh... And Evangel doesn't NEED to come into this match and say anything because clearly its a violation of the rules. It failed in your match against King Kandy, so I have no idea why you are even trying it now. Besides, you don't even have Jeans mind, you only choose her BODY. You can't 'repair' something you never had to begin with.


So basically, if id369 is allowed to summon the Phoenix, then by all means Typhus can just call universal swallowing Galactus to his aid, though I'm sure id369 will still argue Phoenix is more powerful.

Things to keep in mind.

At the bare minimum with Nate Grey power unleashed, is at a Transcendent Stage (Skyfather level). At the maximum he is Dark Phoenix Level.

Why Transcendent?
If we use, Nate as a gouge to narrow down how much energy he can pump out. The best one would be when one of the Great Beasts (Ranaq, The Devourer) over loaded and obliterate himself in the processes. This is because it attempted to siphon the energy from Nate Grey.
http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/5154/xman04007xm6.th.jpg

The Great Beasts are Transcendent level?
Well above any Herald, but Skyfather is a safe bet. If you read the recent Omega Flight, Tanaraq (Another of its Kin), was the one that granted the “Wrecking Crew” power formidable enough to deal with Omega Flight with Beta Ray Bill.

At the maximum Dark Phoenix Level?
This comes from when his readings where clocked, and the writer confirming those readings.
http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/7229/nate4iu1.jpg

Is their an explanation as to why Nate contains that much power?
Actually yes there is, and its not a coincidence or a fluke. It goes a bit more, then just having the authentic gene of his mother Jean Grey. Since birth Jean Grey in AoA was the host of the Phoenix Force. What Mr. Sinister was un-aware as to why Jean held such abruptly high energy readings. But wanted to harness this genetic material, to make the ultimate living weapon. Dark Beast comes to the same conclusion as Mr. Sinister. Ultimately Nate Grey, inherited his mother’s power. Incidentally he is also the descendent of the mutant Alpha, who’s power is passed on from generation to generation.

X-Man Flashback
http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/8972/xman01page22image0001sp9.th.jpg

X-Factor #22
http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/5410/xfactor02235py9.th.jpghttp://img338.imageshack.us/img338/7614/xfactor02236wv5.th.jpg


X-Men - Age of Apocalypse #06
http://img376.imageshack.us/img376/2974/xmenageofapocalypse06la1.th.jpg

^^ - If you read the above, you can begin to understand where I am coming from.

@Air Legend
Jean and Phoenix are merged. Heralds and Galactus share a master/herald relationship. The situation is greatly different from what try to make it out to be.

I have a question, how the hell did you come to the conclusion that I summoned Jean Grey?

Originally posted by id369
@Air Legend
Jean and Phoenix are merged. Heralds and Galactus share a master/herald relationship. The situation is greatly different from what try to make it out to be.

I have a question, how the hell did you come to the conclusion that I summoned Jean Grey?
Is this a response to this line?

"So basically, if id369 is allowed to summon the Phoenix, then by all means Typhus can just call universal swallowing Galactus to his aid, though I'm sure id369 will still argue Phoenix is more powerful."

I forgot the word Force. Insert that after the word Phoenix in bold.

Ok,

I've been a little busy and haven't had time to check up on the match since I posted it. Id369, I let you draft Jean Grey (without the phoenix force) for 4 (four) points. 4 for Enhanced Meta level You simply draft regular Jean Grey (without phoenix force unless otherwise specified) and Nate Grey in an amalgam. I don't know why your trying to claim the phoenix as part of your drafted character here.

What your doing now is completely different from your match with King Kandy where you claimed you could use psychometry (ability to gain bits of memory by touching an object) by touching Jean Grey's body (gaining bits of her memory) and therefore contact the phoenix to come to the battlefield.

And you drafted Nate Grey in the herald level category which means he is restricted to the maximum power level the herald category allows (Silver Surfer/Superman/Planetary Threat). That goes for all singular characters higher than herald level that snuck into the herald category. Don't use KMC tiers.

With regards to write-ups, I don't disprove or approve of write-ups ahead of time unless you have specific question about a rule you want me to answer. Don't take my silence and/or my non-response as a sign off approval. I get a lot of PM's during tournament time, and if I don't respond, then it is because I missed your PM and it was buried under the myriad of PM's from other posters. It is your responsibility to PM me again if you don't hear from me.


I've written all the rules in extreme detail, ahead of time so competitors know what the rules are, and you should be able to create a write-up without breaking them. I can't monitor every match in real time so it's up to the competitors to police each other and call me in only when necessary.

Link to rules:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t477386.html

Regardless if you have the Phoenix force or not, you still have a powerful character. Just because you don't think you can win and place first doesn't mean you should quit. You should fight with what you have available to you. If you want to drop because you somehow felt you've been wronged, you are free to do so however your team will still be used in the last chance three-way matches regardless If want to argue for your team or simply stay silent.

-Evangel94

Originally posted by Air Legend
Is this a response to this line?

"So basically, if id369 is allowed to summon the Phoenix, then by all means Typhus can just call universal swallowing Galactus to his aid, though I'm sure id369 will still argue Phoenix is more powerful."

I forgot the word Force. Insert that after the word Phoenix in bold.
That still didn’t answer my question. This is a low tactic even for yourself.

Originally posted by Evangel94
Ok,

I've been a little busy and haven't had time to check up on the match since I posted it. Id369, I let you draft Jean Grey (without the phoenix force) for 4 (four) points. 4 for Enhanced Meta level You simply draft regular Jean Grey (without phoenix force unless otherwise specified) and Nate Grey in an amalgam. I don't know why your trying to claim the phoenix as part of your drafted character here.

What your doing now is completely different from your match with King Kandy where you claimed you could use psychometry (ability to gain bits of memory by touching an object) by touching Jean Grey's body (gaining bits of her memory) and therefore contact the phoenix to come to the battlefield.

And you drafted Nate Grey in the herald level category which means he is restricted to the maximum power level the herald category allows (Silver Surfer/Superman/Planetary Threat). That goes for all singular characters higher than herald level that snuck into the herald category. Don't use KMC tiers.

With regards to write-ups, I don't disprove or approve of write-ups ahead of time unless you have specific question about a rule you want me to answer. Don't take my silence and/or my non-response as a sign off approval. I get a lot of PM's during tournament time, and if I don't respond, then it is because I missed your PM and it was buried under the myriad of PM's from other posters. It is your responsibility to PM me again if you don't hear from me.


I've written all the rules in extreme detail, ahead of time so competitors know what the rules are, and you should be able to create a write-up without breaking them. I can't monitor every match in real time so it's up to the competitors to police each other and call me in only when necessary.

Link to rules:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t477386.html

Regardless if you have the Phoenix force or not, you still have a powerful character. Just because you don't think you can win and place first doesn't mean you should quit. You should fight with what you have available to you. If you want to drop because you somehow felt you've been wronged, you are free to do so however your team will still be used in the last chance three-way matches regardless If want to argue for your team or simply stay silent.

-Evangel94

Wait I have a question, previously I used psychometry to attain the link with the phoenix.
This time I recreated Jean Grey in efforts to attain the mind (with out the Phoenix) do to the same as above.

Is it allowed yes or no?

Originally posted by Creshosk
Voting for id. Doesn't seem like summoning if they're just getting another part of the character that they already paid for.

But he doesn’t have that character. He has an amalgam with the body of that character...

Originally posted by id369
First off, it’s a feat done by the Surfer. Now try submitting a feat done by any of your choices. Now you have to understand that, you cant possibly harm something that retains no physiology to pain. Not the same as Martian Manhunter or Vision who phase their molecules in order to become intangible. It’s a projection in it of its self, try making your shadow scream in pain?

And I used a feat of Surfer because to my knowledge Morg and company have never had to fight an intangible enemy. The point remains, however, that they all share the same base power set and abilities.


Let’s look at the facts. You have ONE powerful character which you’re boosting via a summoning that’s questionable at best and flat out rule breaking at worst.

I have FOUR (count em) powerful Heralds all with power cosmic and unique abilities to boot. ALL my scans are examples of what I’m having my characters do. In universe proof.

Your scans are a bunch of different characters and a bunch or different feats from which you piece meal an ultimate badass. I’m sorry, but none of your astral projection scans show anything like the crazy abilities you claim they would now have from existing on two planes at once.

You know what, f*ck it. I concede my match for braking the rule.
Honest to God, I didn’t think I did so.

I don't think Id broke a rule but I don't believe he can do it. Jean's body isn't enough to start getting the Pheonix force back together. I had serious trouble understanding how Id's plan was supposed to work which is serious but unavoidable problem at extremely high power level.s

Voting for Typhus.

This is becoming very questionable and confusing with all rules that are trying to be circumvented. Without getting into the specifics of your method (which I am going to avoid commenting on unless it breaks a rule), is the phoenix force your trying to gain an entity (an actual being), or a power (ala Cytorak channeling juggernaut his power) that you're trying to use?

Because keep in mind the following:
1. You are restricted to the battlefield and your designated prep zones for the entire match.
2. You cannot summon characters to assist you in battle from other dimensions/planes of reality.

I recreated Jean Grey with out the phoenix force. With a thought or memory of Jean Grey, she is pulled from the astral plane, into a solidified psionic shell. Nate was able to recreate AoA Gwen Stacy, even though he was in the 616 reality.

I never left the battlefield. I paid 4 points for Jean Grey No Phoenix Force. Now I wish to recreate Jean, to attain Jean’s mind. I didn’t think I was braking any rules, since I drafted Jean Grey with No Phoenix.

I figured hell, I drafted Jean and only retained her body. I guess its no problem if I pull out her mind from the astral plane.


LOOPEHOLE
This Jean will suffer from amnesia. This is because her mind is split into a billion pieces.

Where are her other pieces of her mind located?
Within the fragments of the Phoenix Force. Each piece of the Phoenix Force, contains a fragment of Jean conscious.

What is the Phoenix Force?
A cosmic entity.

Why are the Phoenix and Jean shattered to a million pieces?
Because at last seen, they had merged. And last seen Xorn blew them up with a massive EMP.

Where are the pieces of the phoenix force?
Lingering across the galaxy.
-----------------------------------------------------

Ok so what did I do?
Recreated Jean.
Attempting to reform her conscious.
The conscious reside within the fragments of the phoenix force.

------------------------------------------------
My questions are?
What going to happen if you re-establish a link to those pieces of your conscious?

Did I break any rules?

Originally posted by id369
You know what, f*ck it. I concede my match for braking the rule.
Honest to God, I didn’t think I did so.

Conception accepted.

Originally posted by Joe Pap
Conception accepted.

Ooohhh...have you picked out names yet?

huh

Conception.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Conception

2. fertilization; inception of pregnancy.

The word you were looking for was concession. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/concession

Yeah lmao

I was just trying not to say contraception lol

Originally posted by id369
I recreated Jean Grey with out the phoenix force. With a thought or memory of Jean Grey, she is pulled from the astral plane, into a solidified psionic shell. Nate was able to recreate AoA Gwen Stacy, even though he was in the 616 reality.

I never left the battlefield. I paid 4 points for Jean Grey No Phoenix Force. Now I wish to recreate Jean, to attain Jean’s mind. I didn’t think I was braking any rules, since I drafted Jean Grey with No Phoenix.

I figured hell, I drafted Jean and only retained her body. I guess its no problem if I pull out her mind from the astral plane.


LOOPEHOLE
This Jean will suffer from amnesia. This is because her mind is split into a billion pieces.

Where are her other pieces of her mind located?
Within the fragments of the Phoenix Force. Each piece of the Phoenix Force, contains a fragment of Jean conscious.

What is the Phoenix Force?
A cosmic entity.

Why are the Phoenix and Jean shattered to a million pieces?
Because at last seen, they had merged. And last seen Xorn blew them up with a massive EMP.

Where are the pieces of the phoenix force?
Lingering across the galaxy.
-----------------------------------------------------

Ok so what did I do?
Recreated Jean.
Attempting to reform her conscious.
The conscious reside within the fragments of the phoenix force.

------------------------------------------------
My questions are?
What going to happen if you re-establish a link to those pieces of your conscious?

Did I break any rules?

I think summoning Jean's mind from the astral plane, other parts of the galaxy, or wherever it is located to the battlefield is a violation of the summoning rule.

Voting for Typhus as I think there is something slightly illegal going on in the other team.

Originally posted by Evangel94
I think summoning Jean's mind from the astral plane, other parts of the galaxy, or wherever it is located to the battlefield is a violation of the summoning rule. So calling in other parts of your actual caharacter violates the summoning rule?

Seriously, your rules are very poorly written.

So I draft Hellboy and then summon the creature from which he has only the right arm.

I don't know why people who based their entire strategies in loophole rules are so surprised of being kicked out of this, Digi asked about his ruling before at least, did you Id369?

Originally posted by Bentley
So I draft Hellboy and then summon the creature from which he has only the right arm.

I don't know why people who based their entire strategies in loophole rules are so surprised of being kicked out of this, Digi asked about his ruling before at least, did you Id369? I draft helboy, I can't summon parts of hellboy would be a more accurate assesment.

He drafts jean grey, he can't summon a part of jean grey?

Originally posted by Creshosk

Seriously, your rules are very poorly written.

actually they're not. they just require some common sense to conform to.

Or else, why didn't id just draft Phoenix, rather than Jean Grey? The whole point was because he knew he could sneak Phoenix in only by picking Jean Grey and getting phoenix through the loophole of summoning.

You're right that id didn't technically violate the rule since he drafted someone who was allowed (jean), but he certainly violated the spirit of the rule, which was to limit the drafting to only a certain powerlevel...which the Phoenix was a clear violation of.

And Evangel is taking a lot of flack from people...I kinda feel bad for her. When she made the ruling against Digi, I was impressed (regardless of whether I agreed or not) with her ruling because it was clearly an unpopular choice...going against the mod and other influential members wasn't going to gain her any favor, yet she still did it. She could've easily dismissed Papa Smurph and everyone would've praised her, but she went against what was popular and perhaps majority opinion and stood for what she believed was right.

Also, instead of complaining about how poor Evangel is doing her tourney, why don't the folks who are criticizing her make their own (controversy-less) tournaments, its certainly more productive than bashing someone who's volunteered their time for the benefit of the KMC community.

So in conclusion, stop all the whining and bitching.

Well that's the problem people are having. Evangel made certain assumptions about how much people would respect the spirit of her rules. Hammering them out a bit more specifically would have been good.

Anyway I think this Tournament can keep going.

Where did she get that idea from??

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Well that's the problem people are having. Evangel made certain assumptions about how much people would respect the spirit of her rules. Hammering them out a bit more specifically would have been good.

Anyway I think this Tournament can keep going. well I feel people should respect the 'spirit' of the rules...its hard to make rules that someone won't somehow find someway to circumvent. we've got some creative folks in here after all.

Originally posted by Master-Borg
actually they're not. they just require some common sense to conform to.

Or else, why didn't id just draft Phoenix, rather than Jean Grey? The whole point was because he knew he could sneak Phoenix in only by picking Jean Grey and getting phoenix through the loophole of summoning.

You're right that id didn't technically violate the rule since he drafted someone who was allowed (jean), but he certainly violated the spirit of the rule, which was to limit the drafting to only a certain powerlevel...which the Phoenix was a clear violation of.

And Evangel is taking a lot of flack from people...I kinda feel bad for her. When she made the ruling against Digi, I was impressed (regardless of whether I agreed or not) with her ruling because it was clearly an unpopular choice...going against the mod and other influential members wasn't going to gain her any favor, yet she still did it. She could've easily dismissed Papa Smurph and everyone would've praised her, but she went against what was popular and perhaps majority opinion and stood for what she believed was right.

Also, instead of complaining about how poor Evangel is doing her tourney, why don't the folks who are criticizing her make their own (controversy-less) tournaments, its certainly more productive than bashing someone who's volunteered their time for the benefit of the KMC community.

So in conclusion, stop all the whining and bitching. So in conclusion how much are you paying? Or is this what you're paying for it?

Originally posted by Creshosk
So in conclusion how much are you paying? Or is this what you're paying for it? huh?

Originally posted by Master-Borg
huh? Gou know the exchange of "services"? a game of give and take... You scratch her back, she wets your whistle?

Originally posted by Creshosk
Gou know the exchange of "services"? a game of give and take... You scratch her back, she wets your whistle? that is a despicable insinuation and you should be ashamed of yourself.

Originally posted by Master-Borg
that is a despicable insinuation and you should be ashamed of yourself.

Originally posted by Master-Borg
that is a despicable insinuation and you should be ashamed of yourself. That's rich since you're the one in-sin-you-ating.

Originally posted by Creshosk
That's rich since you're the one in-sin-you-ating. I'm not sure what kinda game you're playing, but I refuse to engage in it any further. Some of us prefer our honor kept intact.

Originally posted by Master-Borg
I'm not sure what kinda game you're playing, but I refuse to engage in it any further. Some of us prefer our honor kept intact. Well you certainly blew that didn't you... or well.. you know...

Originally posted by Master-Borg
actually they're not. they just require some common sense to conform to.

Or else, why didn't id just draft Phoenix, rather than Jean Grey? The whole point was because he knew he could sneak Phoenix in only by picking Jean Grey and getting phoenix through the loophole of summoning.

You're right that id didn't technically violate the rule since he drafted someone who was allowed (jean), but he certainly violated the spirit of the rule, which was to limit the drafting to only a certain powerlevel...which the Phoenix was a clear violation of.

And Evangel is taking a lot of flack from people...I kinda feel bad for her. When she made the ruling against Digi, I was impressed (regardless of whether I agreed or not) with her ruling because it was clearly an unpopular choice...going against the mod and other influential members wasn't going to gain her any favor, yet she still did it. She could've easily dismissed Papa Smurph and everyone would've praised her, but she went against what was popular and perhaps majority opinion and stood for what she believed was right.

Also, instead of complaining about how poor Evangel is doing her tourney, why don't the folks who are criticizing her make their own (controversy-less) tournaments, its certainly more productive than bashing someone who's volunteered their time for the benefit of the KMC community.

So in conclusion, stop all the whining and bitching.

You agreed with her when she changed a rule mid-tourney?! You can admire it for "going against the grain" as you seem to imply, but there's a valid reason why it was against the grain. It was changing a rule entirely to invalidate a previously approved plan...not an unforeseen loophole, but something that was known and brought to her attention.

As for whining and b*tching, you have a point that less people should be doing it, but there's also legitimate times where complaining is warranted. And when rules aren't clear, or are changed, that is an appropriate time. It might've been interesting to see what reaction was like if goober had still been around, and his previously approved plan had been negated by the same change.

Props to id for stepping down (sine I think that's what he did) when he realized he was against the rules. It's easier than fighting for a losing cause and becoming more annoyed, which is why I stepped down after the rug got pulled out from under me as well.

And a controversy-less tourney is an oxymoron, so you're really just spouting ideological nonsense with that one. Good tourney directors, and good tourneys, have happened frequently, but never entirely without controversy. Part of it is that when you throw a bunch of pseudo-mature comic geeks (many of them teens) together in a competition, they lose whatever civility they possess. But some of it can also be attributed to the directors...whom I always empathize with to an extent, because it's far harder than most realize to run an efficient tourney. But that doesn't make them beyond reproach.

...

The problem, in my mind, seems to be that Evangel (and now yourself) are simply trying to squelch dissent rather than listening to it and adapting. People were banned from voting for disagreeing with some of the rules. They are told what to think in terms of how we should approach matches, whether its prep plans or drafted teams, rather than deciding on our own. There was no concession to those (I count 4 now) whose plans have been banned, either by a failure on the part of the participant or the director...no apologies, no compromises, not even a chance to make the case for the other side (I was never given a voice in my match's decision, though apparently Stacks was).

Originally posted by Creshosk
Well you certainly blew that didn't you... or well.. you know...

listen, I didn't insinuate anything. You left nothing to the imagination with the imagery of your post.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
a bunch of pseudo-mature comic geeks

You know us so well.

Originally posted by Master-Borg
listen, I didn't insinuate anything. You left nothing to the imagination with the imagery of your post. No, if I left nothing to the imagination I would have been downright vulgar. Funny thing is the "Wet your whistle" is a comment refering to getting a drink.

You COULD have taken it to she bought you a beer. Which there is nothing wrong with. But you obviously took it to mean something harsher.

Yes, I'm rather rude, I'm a self declared *******. But you lost your honor when you went the sexual route. Because volumes were written about where your mind was with your response.

Guys, does this really have anything to do with the tournament? We have an off topic thread. Thanks.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
You know us so well.



I'm not talking about everyone, but no one can honestly tell me that all people are entirely upright when it comes to these things. Every tourney there's hypocrisy in the form of believing anything one's own team does is fine, but a LOT of what others do should be banned....and sometimes it's the same stuff.

...

Anyway, bump.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
You agreed with her when she changed a rule mid-tourney?! You can admire it for "going against the grain" as you seem to imply, but there's a valid reason why it was against the grain. It was changing a rule entirely to invalidate a previously approved plan...not an unforeseen loophole, but something that was known and brought to her attention.

As for whining and b*tching, you have a point that less people should be doing it, but there's also legitimate times where complaining is warranted. And when rules aren't clear, or are changed, that is an appropriate time. It might've been interesting to see what reaction was like if goober had still been around, and his previously approved plan had been negated by the same change.

Props to id for stepping down (sine I think that's what he did) when he realized he was against the rules. It's easier than fighting for a losing cause and becoming more annoyed, which is why I stepped down after the rug got pulled out from under me as well.

And a controversy-less tourney is an oxymoron, so you're really just spouting ideological nonsense with that one. Good tourney directors, and good tourneys, have happened frequently, but never entirely without controversy. Part of it is that when you throw a bunch of pseudo-mature comic geeks (many of them teens) together in a competition, they lose whatever civility they possess. But some of it can also be attributed to the directors...whom I always empathize with to an extent, because it's far harder than most realize to run an efficient tourney. But that doesn't make them beyond reproach.

...

The problem, in my mind, seems to be that Evangel (and now yourself) are simply trying to squelch dissent rather than listening to it and adapting. People were banned from voting for disagreeing with some of the rules. They are told what to think in terms of how we should approach matches, whether its prep plans or drafted teams, rather than deciding on our own. There was no concession to those (I count 4 now) whose plans have been banned, either by a failure on the part of the participant or the director...no apologies, no compromises, not even a chance to make the case for the other side (I was never given a voice in my match's decision despite having laid my case out intelligently and respectfully, though apparently Stacks was).

Originally posted by DigiMark007
You agreed with her when she changed a rule mid-tourney?! You can admire it for "going against the grain" as you seem to imply, but there's a valid reason why it was against the grain. It was changing a rule entirely to invalidate a previously approved plan...not an unforeseen loophole, but something that was known and brought to her attention.

As for whining and b*tching, you have a point that less people should be doing it, but there's also legitimate times where complaining is warranted. And when rules aren't clear, or are changed, that is an appropriate time. It might've been interesting to see what reaction was like if goober had still been around, and his previously approved plan had been negated by the same change.

Props to id for stepping down (sine I think that's what he did) when he realized he was against the rules. It's easier than fighting for a losing cause, which is why I stepped down after the rug got pulled out from under me as well.

And a controversy-less tourney is an oxymoron, so you're really just spouting ideological nonsense with that one. Good tourney directors, and good tourneys, have happened frequently, but never entirely without controversy. Part of it is that when you throw a bunch of pseudo-mature comic geeks (many of them teens) together in a competition, they lose whatever civility they possess. But some of it can also be attributed to the directors...whom I always empathize with to an extent, because it's far harder than most realize to run an efficient tourney. But that doesn't make them beyond reproach.

1. I didn't have an opinion about her ruling regarding your case, since I'm not knowledgeable enough with the facts of the situation. Although from my understanding, her ruling didn't affect your plan at all. She said instant tech isn't available without purchase...your plan did not rely on 'instant' tech...it was merely very fast tech due to the nature of your team. Evangel clearly said it was up to voters to judge how feasible your tech plan was. For example, in Goober's case, voters plainly didn't buy his plan of creating 6 billion androids, even though Evangel's new rule wasn't established at the time. Hence no difference if Goober stayed in, because people still dont buy his plan of creating 6 billion androids.

2. I said people should stop whining and bitching. Not that people should stop providing constructive criticism. There's a big and clear difference.

3. My point was that every tourney has controversies. No matter what, someone is going to disagree and feel cheated. So someone is always going to feel the rules suck or the decisions were unfair.

Originally posted by Badabing
Guys, does this really have anything to do with the tournament? We have an off topic thread. Thanks. Quite possibly. As its discussing the behavior of those around it. *indicates Digi's post*

I share his concern. Its called "Railroading" and it sucks in RPGs and it sucks in tournaments.

Giving the illlusion of choice when things are rather much set on a linear path. While there is the illusion of being able to choose, it is just that an illlusion.

From Evangel:



She approved it multiple times (all of which I posted), then banned it mid-tourney MB. Nothing more or less. I would know if my plan were still acceptable.

And since you quoted my post before I had a chance to edit in the last section:
The problem, in my mind, seems to be that Evangel (and now yourself) are simply trying to squelch dissent rather than listening to it and adapting. People were banned from voting for disagreeing with some of the rules. They are told what to think in terms of how we should approach matches, whether its prep plans or drafted teams, rather than deciding on our own. There was no concession to those (I count 4 now) whose plans have been banned, either by a failure on the part of the participant or the director...no apologies, no compromises, not even a chance to make the case for the other side (I was never given a voice in my match's decision despite having laid my case out intelligently and respectfully, though apparently Stacks was).

Originally posted by Creshosk
But you lost your honor when you went the sexual route.

funny thing is I mentioned nothing about sexual innuendo in my posts, yet you assumed I went the 'sexual route', now who's mind is in the gutter?

Originally posted by Master-Borg
1. I didn't have an opinion about her ruling regarding your case, since I'm not knowledgeable enough with the facts of the situation. Although from my understanding, her ruling didn't affect your plan at all. She said instant tech isn't available without purchase...your plan did not rely on 'instant' tech...it was merely very fast tech due to the nature of your team. Evangel clearly said it was up to voters to judge how feasible your tech plan was. For example, in Goober's case, voters plainly didn't buy his plan of creating 6 billion androids, even though Evangel's new rule wasn't established at the time. Hence no difference if Goober stayed in, because people still dont buy his plan of creating 6 billion androids.

2. I said people should stop whining and bitching. Not that people should stop providing constructive criticism. There's a big and clear difference.

3. My point was that every tourney has controversies. No matter what, someone is going to disagree and feel cheated. So someone is always going to feel the rules suck or the decisions were unfair. So you didn't actually read what she said? And yet you defend her when it bothers people and they complain... And you wonder why I tease you about your motives for such actions?

Originally posted by DigiMark007
From Evangel:



She approved it multiple times (all of which I posted), then banned it mid-tourney MB. Nothing more or less. I would know if my plan were still acceptable.



I didnt know of the PM, as I think the rule change she posted on the thread was a bit different. But yeah I agree with you that it is wrong that she approved your plan and THEN changed the rules.

Originally posted by Master-Borg
funny thing is I mentioned nothing about sexual innuendo in my posts, yet you assumed I went the 'sexual route', now who's mind is in the gutter? Oh come now, how stupid do you think people are?

Originally posted by Master-Borg
that is a despicable insinuation and you should be ashamed of yourself.
Originally posted by Master-Borg
I'm not sure what kinda game you're playing, but I refuse to engage in it any further. Some of us prefer our honor kept intact.

It's pretty damned clear what you were thinking. Talks of "despicable insinuations" and "keeping honor intact". Even with the veiled "some of us" rift that clearly means "Not you".

So the answer is: Yours.

Originally posted by Badabing
Guys, does this really have anything to do with the tournament? We have an off topic thread. Thanks. This wasn't me joking.

Originally posted by Creshosk

It's pretty damned clear what you were thinking. as it was pretty clear what you were thinking as well.

Originally posted by Master-Borg
I didnt know of the PM, as I think the rule change she posted on the thread was a bit different. But yeah I agree with you that it is wrong that she approved your plan and THEN changed the rules. He posted her approving it in the match thread when the legality of it was challenged the first time. If you'd read when she made the change it'd be clear to you that she was instituting a change...

But you know what? I'm not going to get into that again...

Originally posted by Badabing
This wasn't me joking.

Reported!

Originally posted by Badabing
This wasn't me joking. Yes, Bada, it does have to do with the tournament.

Someone is probably reporting things but yes. The answer is Yes. It might seem off topic but we are indeed discussing events in the tournament.

Originally posted by Creshosk
He posted her approving it in the match thread when the legality of it was challenged the first time. If you'd read when she made the change it'd be clear to you that she was instituting a change...

But you know what? I'm not going to get into that again... I agree now, I had thought it was more a rule clarification than a change. my mistake.

The same was posted in the discussion or battle thread as well, but I didn't mean to spring a Pm on you (which you couldn't have known about).

In any case, the b*tching you mentioned...generally participants can tolerate flaws in a tourney if the decisions remain consistent and don't impart a massive advantage on one person (or disadvantage). But when 4 people (myself, goober, id, and Trick) have had entire plans banned, something is wrong. Trick brought his on himself, but the other 3 could have been avoided, and should have as well.

The alternative to complaints is lock-step acceptance, which I disagree with if there's something legit to complain about. The "no more comments like this. The tourney will move on." style of squelching discussion exemplifies this.

So I have wished everyone good luck (still do) and hope that the tourney can still have merit (it will...Sym, DL, Typhus, Kandy, id, others I'm probably forgetting...all cool in my book), and I will never encourage complaints...but neither will I discourage them if they are warranted.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
The same was posted in the discussion or battle thread as well, but I didn't mean to spring a Pm on you (which you couldn't have known about).

In any case, the b*tching you mentioned...generally participants can tolerate flaws in a tourney if the decisions remain consistent and don't impart a massive advantage on one person (or disadvantage). But when 4 people (myself, goober, id, and Trick) have had entire plans banned, something is wrong. Trick brought his on himself, but the other 3 could have been avoided.

The alternative to complaints is lock-step acceptance, which I disagree with if there's something to complain about.

So I have wished everyone good luck (still do) and hope that the tourney can still have merit (it will...Sym, DL, Typhus, Kandy, id, others I'm probably forgetting...all cool in my book), and I will never encourage complaints...but neither will I discourage them if they are warranted. Don't forget when stacks complained about Mogo for being a planet. Rather than proving that Mogo was on par with Ego He whined about some unrelated comparison and Mogo was banned.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Reported! cry

Originally posted by Creshosk
Yes, Bada, it does have to do with the tournament.

Someone is probably reporting things but yes. The answer is Yes. It might seem off topic but we are indeed discussing events in the tournament. Okay, then this is to me.....dur

Originally posted by DigiMark007
But when 4 people (myself, goober, id, and Trick) have had entire plans banned, something is wrong. Trick brought his on himself, but the other 3 could have been avoided, and should have as well.

Dude it's your fault for not doing anything about it and just deciding to quit. Stacks did what he had to do to get the win. And while I don't necessarily agree with the tactics he used to achieve this goal, he accomplished this because you backed down without a fight.

darthgoober quit before this dilemma happened, but I'm pretty sure he wouldn't just concede the match because one strategy got invalidated. His team still had plenty of viable options to win the tourney, while the same can't be said about your team or id369's team.

Originally posted by Air Legend
Dude it's your fault for not doing anything about it and just deciding to quit. Stacks did what he had to do to get the win. And while I don't necessarily agree with the tactics he used to achieve this goal, he accomplished this because you backed down without a fight.

darthgoober quit before this dilemma happened, but I'm pretty sure he wouldn't just concede the match because one strategy got invalidated. His team still had plenty of viable options to win the tourney, while the same can't be said about your team or id369's team.

Stacks didn't 'get the win.'

The votes were a shut out in Digi's favor. NO ONE voted stacks.

Just because he advances, doesn't mean he won.

I would continue the debate, with out the Phoenix force. But I am going to stand on what I previously mentioned.

If I was found braking any rule, I would concede the match no questions asked. It seems manipulating the mind of a character I drafted is out of the question, if its located in the astral plane. And I suppose communing with one self, is out of the prep/battlefield.

Good luck, Typhus. I will see what I can do, with my character in the 4th round.

Originally posted by Bentley
So I draft Hellboy and then summon the creature from which he has only the right arm.

I don't know why people who based their entire strategies in loophole rules are so surprised of being kicked out of this, Digi asked about his ruling before at least, did you Id369?
I was under the impression, to exploit as much as possible to see what end result your selection could achieve. So I thought of a plan and made up a combo.
My Plan was to amass as much power as possible, to the point of asserting myself as an abstract level being.
Digi prep counter, with virtually no limit to what kind of tech he can come up with.
Goober - the most massive army I have ever seen in the history of any tourney. Not just a massive army but versatile, with herald level power.

It takes, ingenuity, and a whole lot of research to confine what you came up with. So raiding on a loophole did not seem so dangerous at the time. Especially when you are making an attempt to walk on the rule line.

But to answer your question, yes I did try to address my prep time and intentions before the tourney kicked off (during draft) during the tourney, and prior to this match.

Apparently its my job, to continuously pm until she gets back at me for a ruling.

I feel I should address you directly in the open Digimark.


Originally posted by DigiMark007

She approved it multiple times (all of which I posted), then banned it mid-tourney MB. Nothing more or less. I would know if my plan were still acceptable.


Excuse me?

You asked me if you could build tech during your prep using matter manipulation. I didn't have a problem with THAT, BUT I said you needed to buy adequate prep and resources to do what you wanted. The Doctor was already questionable to begin with, and I received complaints about him during the draft. So I tried to get you to pick someone else. But you argued with me, and convinced me he was in your own words a simple matter manipulator, psi, and tk user. I was trying to avoid this situation to begin with, but you completely (why is that I?) adamant about picking the Doctor. While questionable, I wanted to give you a change and I didn't think it would pose as much a problem as it how shown to be.

It wasn't that your idea wasn't acceptable, it was that what you claimed to do during your 15 minutes of prep deeply infringed on the instant tech rule. I don't have a problem with the Doctor using matter manipulation to create the raw materials for Reed and Lex to use to create tech in prep, but you were basically using the Doctor to download the specs from Reed and lex to just instantly create and assemble tech with a mere thought.

If I allowed that what would be the point of instant tech and prep? You claim its not fair to you, but do you really think its fair to everyone else if I let what you do go, and completely ignore the complaints of other users who bought massive prep time and laboratories to do their prep? It's true I felt bad for making the rules more stringent mid-game, but its better to get it out of the way now then let it go on. I even changed the rule to more of a compromise later on, but you still quit.

Originally posted by DigiMark007

And since you quoted my post before I had a chance to edit in the last section:
The problem, in my mind, seems to be that Evangel (and now yourself) are simply trying to squelch dissent rather than listening to it and adapting.

Are you kidding me? I've been listening to EVERYONE's opinions from day one. You may or may not be aware of what goes on behind the scenes of a tournament, but I deeply listen to what everyone has to say. For example, you have no idea how many people had objections with the Doctor despite your claims. They may not want to admit it in the open (and I don't want to post their PM's in the open because I feel if they decided to PM me, they probably wish to remain anonymous). I don't disregard anything. I give everything everyone says tremendous thought.

Why do you think I came so close to simply ending the tournament early on and calling it quits. The amount of opinions, questions, comments, and arguments to me was simply staggering. More so than in any other tournament I've ever run. But I got through it and moved forward.


Originally posted by DigiMark007
People were banned from voting for disagreeing with some of the rules.

I only recall banning two people from the tournament completely. Laminator_X was the first because I felt he was being disrespectful. I gave him a warning beforehand as well to stop. The second was TricksterPriest which you led a personal crusade for to get banned. Almost the entire roster of tournament participants agreed with your suggestion, TricksterPriest himself wasn't serious about competing anymore and insulted the tournament, and with that in mind I removed him from the tournament.


Originally posted by DigiMark007
They are told what to think in terms of how we should approach matches, whether its prep plans or drafted teams, rather than deciding on our own. There was no concession to those (I count 4 now) whose plans have been banned, either by a failure on the part of the participant or the director...no apologies, no compromises, not even a chance to make the case for the other side (I was never given a voice in my match's decision despite having laid my case out intelligently and respectfully, though apparently Stacks was).

You're being pretty generic with your statements about "4 people" being told what to think. Unless your specific and mentions names, then I won't know who you're talking about, and I am not about to speculate unless you name them.

I gave you plenty of time to make your case against changing the rules. But you simply decided to quit Digimark because you were "disenchanted" with the tournament. I asked you twice if you were sure, and you simply quit and decided not to argue or fight about it at all. Papa Smurph on the other hand fought deeply hard to get a rule clarification from me, and so I decided to clear up the rules.

Yes, I changed the rules during your match, but what your neglecting to mention for everyone to read is that I changed the rule AGAIN to something more of a compromise. I didn't ban your matter manipulation during prep, but I said to you and everyone else to be deeply aware of how much prep they have and if you could claim to do what you said in your 15 minute prep time without infringing on instant technology. Doctor could still mind link with reed and lex and have them assemble the components into a device (depending on what device and what they could assumble in 15 minutes), but the doctor could not have the device instantly appear and be ready to go.

You had the following characters: The Doctor, Thor, Ultimate Reed, Lex

You had the following abilities you purchased: Spying on your opponent, Power boosting, and Prep lvl 1 (15 minutes)

You had a chance as much as anyone to win this tournament, but the moment you lost the ability to instantly have tech appear you still decided to quit despite that compromise rule I created.

-Evangel94

.

Originally posted by id369
I was under the impression, to exploit as much as possible to see what end result your selection could achieve. So I thought of a plan and made up a combo.
My Plan was to amass as much power as possible, to the point of asserting myself as an abstract level being.
Digi prep counter, with virtually no limit to what kind of tech he can come up with.
Goober - the most massive army I have ever seen in the history of any tourney. Not just a massive army but versatile, with herald level power.

It takes, ingenuity, and a whole lot of research to confine what you came up with. So raiding on a loophole did not seem so dangerous at the time. Especially when you are making an attempt to walk on the rule line.

But to answer your question, yes I did try to address my prep time and intentions before the tourney kicked off (during draft) during the tourney, and prior to this match.



I'll try to be polite and clear as possible with my response. Don't read this thinking I saying with a condescending tone. Think of it as me saying it with the utmost respect and as someone trying to be helpful.

---------------------

There's a very fine line between finding a great strategy and pick that doesn't break any rules, and actually outright breaking the rules.

When SpunkySmurph picked Mogo (a planet with the GL ring) for example, I thought that was hilariously funny yet still plausible pick that didn't really break any rules. No one could actually come up with any solid scan evidence that actually displayed Mogo being above Herald level. What I've seen of Mogo myself is him getting hurt by an asteroid, being attacked by Sinestro Corp members, and just floating around in space. No actual Herald level feats for Mogo. Plus Heralds themselves potentially can shatter planets. I gave it deep consideration, but in the end I could not in good conscience allow him with all the objections I received.

I read through your prep you submitted carefully. I worked with you on what I could without outright helping you and I thought your earlier write-ups with the Façade Virus and Nate Grey using telekinesis to break apart your opponent was very good. I had hoped your match with King Kandy would give you a better idea on how to re-work your strategy to focus more on the less questionable parts of your phoenix strategy, and more on the power of Nate Grey, facade virus, and your psi abilities that you posted for everyone to see.

But after your match with King Kandy you shifted your strategy from using the Façade Virus and Telekinesis to just completely trying to gain the phoenix power, and putting a whole lot less emphasis on Nate's other abilities. I think you would have done a lot better if you just debated and used what you had originally with Nate's psi, tk, and energy wielding abilities, and facade virus rather than just focusing on the phoenix aspect.

With regards to the phoenix, I thought your match would King Kandy (with whom you argued the same issues your facing now with Typus) would give you the hint to avoid the phoenix aspect and to focus on Nate Grey. I don't have a problem with psychometry and using it to understand objects better, but when you tried to use it to connect with the Phoenix that's when things start to get questionable and illegal in some respects. Your match with Psycho Gundam displayed that, not because of the phoenix, you won but because people felt Nate had the potential to defeat Juggernaut without any help from a phoenix power up, plus you debated well.

I could actually say a whole lot more and say some strategies your deeply overlooking with the selections you've chosen along with Nate Grey, but I can't. As tournament director, I have a responsibility to be fair and let everyone come up with their own legal strategies. I can't cross a certain line between making sure people understand the format effectively and downright helping someone win. However, I will say that, if you focus more on Nate and his natural abilities in debating then I think you would do a whole lot better. You don't need the phoenix power up to do well in this tournament.


Sincerely,
-Evangel94

Originally posted by id369
Apparently its my job, to continuously pm until she gets back at me for a ruling.

Id369, that's not what I meant at all.

You don't need continuously pm me about a ruling. I've responded to nearly every question you asked of me esp. in the early draft process However, if I do happen to miss something (I am human after all. I am not a robot) and I don't get back to you in a reasonable period of time, then just send me a polite private message reminder. It's happened with a few other contestants, and they have politely reminded me of a question I may have missed.

What I don't want to happen is people to assume that my non-response on the matter is a sign of approval. It is not.

Hope this clears it up.

Sincerely,
-Evangel94

Originally posted by Evangel94
I'll try to be polite and clear as possible with my response. Don't read this thinking I saying with a condescending tone. Think of it as me saying it with the utmost respect and as someone trying to be helpful.

---------------------

There's a very fine line between finding a great strategy and pick that doesn't break any rules, and actually outright breaking the rules.

When SpunkySmurph picked Mogo (a planet with the GL ring) for example, I thought that was hilariously funny yet still plausible pick that didn't really break any rules. No one could actually come up with any solid scan evidence that actually displayed Mogo being above Herald level. What I've seen of Mogo myself is him getting hurt by an asteroid, being attacked by Sinestro Corp members, and just floating around in space. No actual Herald level feats for Mogo. Plus Heralds themselves potentially can shatter planets. I gave it deep consideration, but in the end I could not in good conscience allow him with all the objections I received. So despite the lack of valid evidence to support their case you still gave in to the underhanded tactic of complain about it enough to get you to go against valid logic and evidence anyway?

Don't you see that that's my main complaint? You have people who have this idea that they can just complain to get the other partricipant's legitimate picks banned just by complaining. And you gave in. Rather than actually being fair you give in just because people complained.

They were incorrect in their assesment, and their fears were not legitimate. Its an underhanded strategy that appearently works. Complain to you enough and you can get your opponents tossed from the tourny, thus giving you a clear pathway to the crown rather than actually participating in the tournament.

ITs a rat-bastard thing to do, but appearently it works. You took away Metron's Chair, based on King Kandy complaining about it?

You took away Mogo based on Joey Stacks complaining about it? And then again when Joey Stacks complained about Digi's prep you changed the rule mid tourny after Digi had attempted to use the strategy in two prior matches.

They don't even have to present a decent argument as to why they should have their way. From what it sounds like they just spam your pm box with complaints and you'll jump to.

Is that how a person is supposed to win this tournament? Complian loudly enough? This then becomes not a debate tournament, but a tournament of who can ***** the most.

Yet you ban other people who express their concerns. This is why there is this appearence of favoritism. Kandy or Stacks complain they get their way. Other people complain you tell them too bad?

Noone voted for stacks, yet he advanced in his match vs Digi. Everyone thought Digi's strat was legit. So why was it an issue?

Digi gets all the votes, Stacks advances... Don't you see anything MAJORly wrong there?

Originally posted by Creshosk


Noone voted for stacks, yet he advanced in his match vs Digi. Everyone thought Digi's strat was legit. So why was it an issue?

Digi gets all the votes, Stacks advances... Don't you see anything MAJORly wrong there?

Those are my only problems. I thought Evangel was playing 'hands off' in the tourney; like she did with Trick.

She specifically said "I will not be your judge; KMC will be."

KMC thought that Trick's strategy was against the rules. No one thought that Digi's was.

We all read the rules, we all read the matches, shouldn't it be up to the judges, then, to decide what strategies follow those rules(Digi), and which are just totally out of the realm of realism (Trick)?

Digi wins his match in a shut out, and Stacks advances because he bitched and moaned enough.

If that's all the tourney takes; maybe you do have a shot at the title, Cresh.

Originally posted by Soljer
Stacks didn't 'get the win.'

The votes were a shut out in Digi's favor. NO ONE voted stacks.

Just because he advances, doesn't mean he won.

He might not have "won" by your standards, but officially he did because Digimark forfeited. Digimark's forfeit wasn't a noble act. It came off as rather cowardly. Even without his instant tech strategy he could have won, but chose to be a quitter.

I reiterate: I don't think darthgoober would have quit if one of his strategies got eliminated.

One thing I've learned about this tourney is people should quit trying to find loopholes and just build a solid all-around team. Like I said earlier in this thread, I'm pretty sure Evangel wouldn't have allowed Jean Grey (with body and mind) for even 20 points if she knew id369 would claim she came with the Phoenix Force.

Originally posted by Air Legend
He might not have "won" by your standards, but officially he did because Digimark forfeited. Digimark's forfeit wasn't a noble act. It came off as rather cowardly. Even without his instant tech strategy he could have won, but chose to be a quitter.

I reiterate: I don't think darthgoober would have quit if one of his strategies got eliminated.

One thing I've learned about this tourney is people should quit trying to find loopholes and just build a solid all-around team. Like I said earlier in this thread, I'm pretty sure Evangel wouldn't have allowed Jean Grey (with body and mind) for even 20 points if she knew id369 would claim she came with the Phoenix Force.

Do you not comprehend the principles behind his actions? It's not so much as he could not win, but why compete in a tournament where rules can be changed on a whim by the director based on invalid complaints? I would have personally done the same as he did, being that he already used the strategy in other matches and no one complained or said his plan was invalid. To suddenly compete for a (fourth?) time and have his plan be outlawed is preposterous.

Originally posted by Blair Wind
Do you not comprehend the principles behind his actions? It's not so much as he could not win, but why compete in a tournament where rules can be changed on a whim by the director based on invalid complaints? I would have personally done the same as he did, being that he already used the strategy in other matches and no one complained or said his plan was invalid. To suddenly compete for a (fourth?) time and have his plan be outlawed is preposterous.
Apparently it WAS a valid complaint. Just because none of the previous competitors decided to argue against it, doesn't mean it's not illegal. Almost all the matches I've read has had a contestant call out one of the "flaws" in his opponent's plan that wasn't previously mentioned, and in this case, he (Stacks) argued to the point that the technique got invalidated. Digimark could have put up resistance to Stacks's argument and convinced Evangel that his strategy was legal, but instead he just quit, a blatant attempt to make the director look bad and gain the forum's condolences.

Originally posted by Creshosk


jeebus, there's so much wrong with your post it needs to be addressed point-by-point:

"So despite the lack of valid evidence to support their case you still gave in to the underhanded tactic of complain about it enough to get you to go against valid logic and evidence anyway?"
-- You think there is a lack of valid evidence. Others think there IS valid evidence. Evangel listened to both sides and disagreed with your assessment. Deal with it.

Don't you see that that's my main complaint? You have people who have this idea that they can just complain to get the other partricipant's legitimate picks banned just by complaining. And you gave in. Rather than actually being fair you give in just because people complained.
-- Just by complaining? I doubt that would work. You need to have legitimate complaints that show Evangel's initial rules being circumvented. Joey must've been more convincing that Digi's prep violated instant prep than your argument that it doesn't.


They were incorrect in their assesment, and their fears were not legitimate. Its an underhanded strategy that appearently works. Complain to you enough and you can get your opponents tossed from the tourny, thus giving you a clear pathway to the crown rather than actually participating in the tournament.
-- How correct their assessment is is subjective. So, it wasn't underhanded to those who consider their assessment correct. If you believe incessant complaining works, be Evangel's guest and continue on complaining...don't see it doing much for you so far.

ITs a rat-bastard thing to do, but appearently it works. You took away Metron's Chair, based on King Kandy complaining about it?
You took away Mogo based on Joey Stacks complaining about it? And then again when Joey Stacks complained about Digi's prep you changed the rule mid tourny after Digi had attempted to use the strategy in two prior matches.
They don't even have to present a decent argument as to why they should have their way. From what it sounds like they just spam your pm box with complaints and you'll jump to.
-- the decency of their argument is subjective. There are people who agree with them and some who agree with you. Evangel even stated she received MANY complaints from MANY posters.


Is that how a person is supposed to win this tournament? Complian loudly enough? This then becomes not a debate tournament, but a tournament of who can ***** the most.
- You've complained quite a bit, how's it been working so far?

Yet you ban other people who express their concerns. This is why there is this appearence of favoritism. Kandy or Stacks complain they get their way. Other people complain you tell them too bad?
- Who did she ban? Trickster...who everyone was giddy to ban? Or someone else who was violating terms of debate? yeah, 2 cases which pretty much everyone agreed Evangel was in the right to ban, who many of you supported banning and now you use that against Evangel?

Noone voted for stacks, yet he advanced in his match vs Digi. Everyone thought Digi's strat was legit. So why was it an issue?
"Digi gets all the votes, Stacks advances... Don't you see anything MAJORly wrong there?"
-- Evangel SAID she was going to advance Digi had he not quit, or did you fail to read that. You know, it's pretty hard to advance someone who is no longer in the tourney.

Originally posted by Blair Wind
Do you not comprehend the principles behind his actions? It's not so much as he could not win, but why compete in a tournament where rules can be changed on a whim by the director based on invalid complaints?

Invalid to whom? To you they may be invalid. However, Evangel clearly stated there were numerous complaints from many people. To them, it was a legitimate complaint. Why is your OPINION any more valid than theirs?

Originally posted by Soljer


She specifically said "I will not be your judge; KMC will be."



Evangel has specifically stated that she would've advanced Digi had he not quit. That seems like to me like letting KMC being judge.

Also, I have noticed that Digi hasn't really attempted to argue why his prep DOESN'T violate the instant tech rule.

Rather, his argument has been "I've used that strat in prior battles without it being an issue, so for it to be brought up now is unfair."

But that argument is weak imo. Just because prior opponents don't bring up a flaw or illegality does not mean one doesn't exist.

If Digi feels his prep doesn't violate the instant tech rule, than he should make his case for it and allow the board to see how convincing it is.

Originally posted by Master-Borg
Also, I have noticed that Digi hasn't really attempted to argue why his prep DOESN'T violate the instant tech rule.

Rather, his argument has been "I've used that strat in prior battles without it being an issue, so for it to be brought up now is unfair."

But that argument is weak imo. Just because prior opponents don't bring up a flaw or illegality does not mean one doesn't exist.

If Digi feels his prep doesn't violate the instant tech rule, than he should make his case for it and allow the board to see how convincing it is.

He already did. An entirely accurate and resoundingly convincing one.

Perhaps you should pay more attention.

Originally posted by Air Legend
Apparently it WAS a valid complaint. Just because none of the previous competitors decided to argue against it, doesn't mean it's not illegal. Almost all the matches I've read has had a contestant call out one of the "flaws" in his opponent's plan that wasn't previously mentioned, and in this case, he (Stacks) argued to the point that the technique got invalidated. Digimark could have put up resistance to Stacks's argument and convinced Evangel that his strategy was legal, but instead he just quit, a blatant attempt to make the director look bad and gain the forum's condolences.

As a simple game thing, there was no point playing with a handicapped team against other good debaters with not-handicapped ones. Being a "quitter" when you save yourself from unneeded agony seems to me like a smart move to do. Besides, its Digi's choice to do, he could forfeit even if he was winning the whole thing, same thing here.

Originally posted by Soljer
He already did. An entirely accurate and resoundingly convincing one.

Perhaps you should pay more attention. eh, guess it wasn't as convincing to Evangel as the other side's argument that it did violate the rules.

Also, by reading Evangels post, she states that she has voiced her concern with Digi over the Doctor before the tourney even started...so this wasn't completely out of the blue as some portray it.

I don’t feel like arguing the legality of Jean and the PF. I covered it, its ruled out, Its over. And I dropped the use of the façade virus, because of the legality of how I would acquire it. Since the means of accruing knowledge was deem illegal, and neither Nate or Jean have knowledge of it, I simply refrained from using it.

But no I did not depend entirely on the PF, and I used Nate Grey in ways I don’t think anyone would have come up with. This is why I placed a battle strategy, and argued with out use of the Phoenix Force. (intangibility haxed, Amped Psi Armor, Unleash Full Potential, Impenetrable Force Field, Mind Shield, Concealment, etc..).
------------------------------------------------------------------


Now if you look back, the legality was not brought up until now. Mind you the Jean mind link, and its association to the PF was submitted since match #1. No one stated it was illegal, just improbable.

So what I did was took in all constructive criticism, and tweaked the prep.
Example:
King Kandy for instance urged that it would have worked if I had Jeans mind, and not her psi signature.
Others urged I needed to revamp the order of how I did things. Have more power at hand first, would facilitate things.

Ok so having the mind would work, no problem I know of a trick to pull that off. And this time unleash his full power first, and have Cerebra ready so this time my abilities augmented with out question.

I replaced Psychometry/Psi Signature for Jeans mind. And ran the list of legality.

**-Am I setting Foot outside the prep area? No and I never did.
**-No outside help, you are restricted to your own means during prep? No problem Nate wields exotic psi powers in an unimaginable ways deem impossible. Like recreating characters, from sheer memory (there is some explanation behind how its done and I provided it).
**-Am I communing with forces outside of the universe? No its Jeans fractured mind, I am attempting to link up with and re-forge.

^^ Now following the above, I was assured I didn’t pull out a fast one. But the loop hole was brought into question. This is because Jeans fractured conscious, reside in the fractured pieces of the Phoenix force. Well since, those pieces are merged with the Force I was going take advantage of the loop hole.

Establishing a link to the fractured mind = establishing a link the Phoenix Force. And as it shown in the comic, all it takes is a link to call forth its power. This is why I placed a mental shields, I didn’t want any one getting smart, and server the link from Jean to the PF via the Charka Crown located at the top of Jean head.


In the end, I think I came up with a convincible way to gain the PF unlike my match with King Kandy. Only this time, instead of member crying out improbable, its invalid in every sense of the word. Well shit on me, and I thought I was following the rules down to the letter of the word.

And that’s the entire story.

Originally posted by Master-Borg
eh, guess it wasn't as convincing to Evangel ...

By which you must surely mean "I guess he didn't act like a complete ***** and spam her PM box with twenty copies of the same sentences."

As evident; the louder you *****, the more likely you are to win.

Originally posted by Soljer
By which you must surely mean "I guess he didn't act like a complete ***** and spam her PM box with twenty copies of the same sentences."

As evident; the louder you *****, the more likely you are to win. its sad you and cresh believe that was the reason Evangel ruled the way she did

is it really incomprehensible to you she may have felt differently about the validity of Digi's argument?

Also, she stated MANY people complained, not just one guy spamming her. Are you calling her a liar?

id369, I just want to say your presentation of the debate was phenomenal...rarely are debates a pleasure (aesthetically) to read!

Here I thought I was being to anal with detail. Glad you can make out of the mess I typed up. ^__^.

Originally posted by Master-Borg
Are you calling her a liar?

Funny how much you enjoy putting words into peoples' mouths. .

Originally posted by Soljer
Funny how much you enjoy putting words into peoples' mouths. . not at all, you basically dismissed Evangel's valid reasons for her decision and stated that she only did so because one guy spammed her inbox. I would say that's akin to calling her a liar.

Originally posted by Master-Borg
not at all, you basically dismissed Evangel's valid reasons for her decision and stated that she only did so because one guy spammed her inbox. I would say that's akin to calling her a liar.


But no one else other than stacks in the tourney had voiced any complaints about it

He's the only one who continued to B*tch

Really name one Tourney competitor who would have complained about this. Everyone except stacks in the tourney was on Digi's side on this matter

Originally posted by Devil Lance
But no one else other than stacks in the tourney had voiced any complaints about it

He's the only one who continued to B*tch

Really name one Tourney competitor who would have complained about this. Everyone except stacks in the tourney was on Digi's side on this matter

Evangel has stated that many who were against Digi's argument chose to voice their complaints through PM and that she'll respect their privacy and not post who they were, so Stacks certainly is not the only one complaining....unless you assume Evangel is lying.

Originally posted by Master-Borg
Evangel has stated that many who were against Digi's argument chose to voice their complaints through PM and that she'll respect their privacy and not post who they were, so Stacks certainly is not the only one complaining....unless you assume Evangel is lying.

I can respect peoples' privacy, but the fact remains that no argument for the rule change was presented except for the complaints. Complaints in and of themselves shouldn't get rules changed unless they have some sort of logical backing behind it.

it does look like instant tech though;

-15 minutes to build GALACTUS KILLING CANNON
-matter manipulator getting blueprints via mind link
-the fight is in an underground tunnel system

???wouldn't the cave turn to plasma when heated thus killing some of your team???

dude, you should have ditched the gun and used thor to his fullest.
you didn't have to quit either.

Originally posted by Master-Borg
jeebus, there's so much wrong with your post it needs to be addressed point-by-point:

"So despite the lack of valid evidence to support their case you still gave in to the underhanded tactic of complain about it enough to get you to go against valid logic and evidence anyway?"
-- You think there is a lack of valid evidence. Others think there IS valid evidence. Evangel listened to both sides and disagreed with your assessment. Deal with it. How about if you post it? Or better yet learn to ****ing read:

Originally posted by Evangel94
No one could actually come up with any solid scan evidence that actually displayed Mogo being above Herald level.

There was valid evidence Master-Troll? Eva says No one could come up with any.

Originally posted by Master-Borg
Don't you see that that's my main complaint? You have people who have this idea that they can just complain to get the other partricipant's legitimate picks banned just by complaining. And they CAN because they DID.

What the hell is your stake in this? You're not a competitor. So what's it to you? You enjoying the cock suck?

Originally posted by Master-Borg
And you gave in. Rather than actually being fair you give in just because people complained.
-- Just by complaining? I doubt that would work.Well it did. Need I remind you that without any evidence placing Mogo above herlald level he was banned Just because Stacks complained.

Originally posted by Master-Borg
You need to have legitimate complaints that show Evangel's initial rules being circumvented. Joey must've been more convincing that Digi's prep violated instant prep than your argument that it doesn't. Or he just whined more. How about you try tro read rwhat's going on?

Originally posted by Master-Borg
They were incorrect in their assesment, and their fears were not legitimate. Its an underhanded strategy that appearently works. Complain to you enough and you can get your opponents tossed from the tourny, thus giving you a clear pathway to the crown rather than actually participating in the tournament.
-- How correct their assessment is is subjective. Incorrect. There was no evidence. Yet they still got their way.

Originally posted by Master-Borg
So, it wasn't underhanded to those who consider their assessment correct. You mean the one complaining and the tourny director who gave in to whining?

Originally posted by Master-Borg
If you believe incessant complaining works, be Evangel's guest and continue on complaining...don't see it doing much for you so far.Why are you even in here? You're not a competitor you little troll.

Originally posted by Master-Borg
ITs a rat-bastard thing to do, but appearently it works. You took away Metron's Chair, based on King Kandy complaining about it?
You took away Mogo based on Joey Stacks complaining about it? And then again when Joey Stacks complained about Digi's prep you changed the rule mid tourny after Digi had attempted to use the strategy in two prior matches.
They don't even have to present a decent argument as to why they should have their way. From what it sounds like they just spam your pm box with complaints and you'll jump to.
-- the decency of their argument is subjective.It was apparently enough even without evidence to get her to change her mind.

Originally posted by Master-Borg
There are people who agree with them and some who agree with you. Ad populem. It doesn't matter who agrees with whom that doesn't change the facts. There was no evidence.

Originally posted by Master-Borg
Evangel even stated she received MANY complaints from MANY posters. Which might be an exageration to hide the real number. Some of us are smart enough to see through these ruses.

Originally posted by Master-Borg
Is that how a person is supposed to win this tournament? Complian loudly enough? This then becomes not a debate tournament, but a tournament of who can ***** the most.
- You've complained quite a bit, how's it been working so far?How about you troll?

Originally posted by Master-Borg
Yet you ban other people who express their concerns. This is why there is this appearence of favoritism. Kandy or Stacks complain they get their way. Other people complain you tell them too bad?
- Who did she ban? Trickster...who everyone was giddy to ban? Or someone else who was violating terms of debate? yeah, 2 cases which pretty much everyone agreed Evangel was in the right to ban, who many of you supported banning and now you use that against Evangel?I'm getting tired of your trolling. Begone.

Originally posted by Master-Borg
Noone voted for stacks, yet he advanced in his match vs Digi. Everyone thought Digi's strat was legit. So why was it an issue?
"Digi gets all the votes, Stacks advances... Don't you see anything MAJORly wrong there?"
-- Evangel SAID she was going to advance Digi had he not quit, or did you fail to read that. Oh that's rich YOU accusing someone of not reading.

Digi said he became disenchanted after Eva decided to change the rules because stacks complained.

Originally posted by Master-Borg
You know, it's pretty hard to advance someone who is no longer in the tourney. Yeah, and what's your stake in this again? The cock suck, troll?

Originally posted by Master-Borg
its sad you and cresh believe that was the reason Evangel ruled the way she did

is it really incomprehensible to you she may have felt differently about the validity of Digi's argument?

Also, she stated MANY people complained, not just one guy spamming her. Are you calling her a liar? It's sad that you have the reading comprehension level of mayonaise

Originally posted by Evangel94
No one could actually come up with any solid scan evidence that actually displayed Mogo being above Herald level.

"No evidence? That's fine You complained enough for me to rule in your favor."

Originally posted by Soljer
Funny how much you enjoy putting words into peoples' mouths. . That's not all he likes putting in people's mouths.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
I can respect peoples' privacy, but the fact remains that no argument for the rule change was presented except for the complaints. Complaints in and of themselves shouldn't get rules changed unless they have some sort of logical backing behind it. And we already know that no evidence is enough evidence:

Originally posted by Evangel94
No one could actually come up with any solid scan evidence that actually displayed Mogo being above Herald level.

Creshosk, resorting to insults and sexual innuendos is really unbecoming of you, there's absolutely no need to lower our discourse to such a level. It merely diminishes the credibility and any possible validity your arguments possess when you engage in unnecessary and unprovoked below the belt attacks.

You're right, I'm not a competitor. But I am a respected elder of KMC, and therefore have not only a right but also a duty to maintain the sanctum of this community...especially since I aspire to be a mod one day. When I feel I need to lend my voice in a controversial debate, I will certainly do so and will neither seek your approval nor require your permission.

I'm not going to rehash anymore points. I've already provided my thoughts on the issue, and you have yours (although you could have done so a bit more artfully), nothing more can be accomplished in this ***--for-tat nonsense.

Cresh and MB, this has been going on for 2 days. I don't want to see this carry over to another thread. Please take it to PMs or put each other on ignore. Thanks.

It's all yours Evangel94.

Votes for Typhus: 3
Air Legend
Bentley
Symmetric Chaos

Votes for id369: 1
Creshosk

Typhus advances to the next round. Id369 is sent to the last chance finale to compete for a spot in the tournament.

4 votes?

Does that seem a bit ... low?

Originally posted by Creshosk
That's not all he likes putting in people's mouths. Wrong way around, Cresh.
Originally posted by Master-Borg
But I am a respected elder of KMC, and therefore have not only a right but also a duty to maintain the sanctum of this community...especially since I aspire to be a mod one day. When I feel I need to lend my voice in a controversial debate, I will certainly do so and will neither seek your approval nor require your permission. My god, you need a strong does of shut the **** up. You're either delusional or trying and failing to be funny. Anna Nicole Smith's rotting corpse has more respect than you on KMC and is more likely to become a mod.

Okay, I'm not sure what got into the water or who's to blame. I've been getting too many reports from the tournament threads. Bashing, flaming, trolling, swearing....you all get the point. I'm not about to read several pages to see who started what. If I see any more trouble coming from these threads I'm warning everybody involved.

Lulz at MB aspiring to mod-dom. You have 3 warnings and a temp ban on your record. A willingness to reform is commendable, but I wouldn't hold your breathe waiting for the call.

As for inserting yourself into the debate, you're neither a participant nor have you been working with all the facts from the beginning. Myself and Cresh have been catching you up, just like the couple others who have chimed in with opinions without full knowledge and seemingly no motive to enter it besides random ill-informed grudges.

Cresh can be a jerk sometimes, he'll be the first to admit it, and I won't defend his methods in general (though I think he's been right in his points here), but to pretend yourself innocent is equally as hypocritical.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Cresh can be a jerk sometimes, he'll be the first to admit it, and I won't defend his methods in general (though I think he's been right in his points here), but to pretend yourself innocent is equally as hypocritical. 313