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Wow, Darwin came from the dead to save this man. PRAISE EVOLUTION!!!

Sith, I have a question. Why is it when someone recovers from injuries that should have killed him/her, say falling out of a 20 story window, it's seen as "Thanks to the love of Jesus, they were saved!". Yet, when someone falls out of a window and dies, Jesus is never mentioned?

I'm talking about instances where people pray for healing and it happens. What you're talking about is not that.

Jesus isn't mentioned because He didn't kill that person that fell and died.

(will give more detail in PM)

Originally posted by sithsaber408
I'm talking about instances where people pray for healing and it happens. What you're talking about is not that.

Jesus isn't mentioned because He didn't kill that person that fell and died.

(will give more detail in PM) What about the many more times that people pray for something and ... well nothing happens?

OK, you guys win. It was all just a coincidence. There is no God.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
OK, you guys win. It was all just a coincidence. There is no God.















True.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
OK, you guys win. It was all just a coincidence. There is no God.















It wasn't even a coincidence. It was good work my the nurse.

Why do you always run to a the supernatural when there is a simple normal answer? HUMANS MADE A MISTAKE

Yes, why you would ascribe random divine intervention when this can be explained as a misdiagnosis is beyond me.

Imagine they euthanized him.

Originally posted by Robtard
Sith, I have a question. Why is it when someone recovers from injuries that should have killed him/her, say falling out of a 20 story window, it's seen as "Thanks to the love of Jesus, they were saved!". Yet, when someone falls out of a window and dies, Jesus is never mentioned? Because Jesus doesnt make them jump out the window. Jesus CAN, however, intervene when someone is ACCIDENTALLY injured and save them.

This is what I dont get about atheists, or others who dont believe in God. They think just because God doesnt hold their hand throughout everything they do that there is no god, and they blame god when bad things happen.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Because Jesus doesnt make them jump out the window. Jesus CAN, however, intervene when someone is ACCIDENTALLY injured and save them.

This is what I dont get about atheists, or others who dont believe in God. They think just because God doesnt hold their hand throughout everything they do that there is no god, and they blame god when bad things happen. I don't think any atheist blames God. Yeah. I would bet that not ONE atheist in this world or ANY other blames God for ANYTHING.


Caps make me look cool. Sadly it doesn't work for you.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Because Jesus doesnt make them jump out the window. Jesus CAN, however, intervene when someone is ACCIDENTALLY injured and save them.

This is what I dont get about atheists, or others who dont believe in God. They think just because God doesnt hold their hand throughout everything they do that there is no god, and they blame god when bad things happen.

What about the little girl, just now in the news, who died after not receiving medical help?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,341574,00.html

wow...a doctor mistakenly declared a man braindead. this must mean that god is real and that neoconservatives were right about terry schaivo.

so, given the big block of text, I didn't read the whole thing, so forgiveness please, but, um, what method was used to determine brain dead? And secondly, if there was enough activation for the man on the table to have actually heard the doctor say anything, there should have been more than enough activation to read... So I assume that is a fabrication.

Originally posted by inimalist
so, given the big block of text, I didn't read the whole thing, so forgiveness please, but, um, what method was used to determine brain dead? And secondly, if there was enough activation for the man on the table to have actually heard the doctor say anything, there should have been more than enough activation to read... So I assume that is a fabrication.

A PET scan was done, but if you don't set up the machine correctly, or read the results incorrectly, you will get the wrong answer.

Yeah, it's always sad to see an otherwise cool story marginalized to a religious anecdote, especially when the stories don't even account for anything resembling a causal link.

Why are people so defensive about it. If some one wants to beleive it was a miracle or the work of God then let them, what harm does it cause you? A lot of people need faith it's sad to see people try and take that away.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
What about the little girl, just now in the news, who died after not receiving medical help?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,341574,00.html Because the parents were insane people who didnt seek medical help. their prayers went unanswered, and I have no excuse for that, but whether you believe in God or not, when your child is extremely ill, you should always seek medical help.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I don't think any atheist blames God. Yeah. I would bet that not ONE atheist in this world or ANY other blames God for ANYTHING.


Caps make me look cool. Sadly it doesn't work for you. you need caps to look cool?

Originally posted by Magee
Why are people so defensive about it. If some one wants to beleive it was a miracle or the work of God then let them, what harm does it cause you? A lot of people need faith it's sad to see people try and take that away.

debunking claimed proof of a miracle is not being defensive. not sure how you came to that conclusion

Originally posted by Magee
Why are people so defensive about it. If some one wants to beleive it was a miracle or the work of God then let them, what harm does it cause you? A lot of people need faith it's sad to see people try and take that away.

I'm not defensive. Rather, I'm offensive toward those who skew facts to fit their personal ideologies. A LOT of people are gullible and/or uninformed and fall for pseudo-science, paranormal quackery, and easy religious answers to rational scientific phenomenon (or in the case of the paranormal hoo-doo, science has nothing to do with it). Nothing is gained by believing a lie. And my loyalty is to being as truthful as possible given the evidence available to us and rational logic.

But thanks for the advice. I'll work on being more overt with my opinions from now on, because if I'm coming across as defensive, clearly I'm not extending myself far enough.

As it concerns this topic, there's loads of studies to show how out-of-body experiences, near death experiences, and misdiagnoses have rational (and testable) explanations. Religion has nothing to do with it.

Originally posted by Magee
Why are people so defensive about it. If some one wants to beleive it was a miracle or the work of God then let them, what harm does it cause you? A lot of people need faith it's sad to see people try and take that away.

I agree with you, and if this thread had taken that tone, the outcome would have been quite different, at least from me. However, this "I find it interesting, when in the regular news there are so many occurrences that point straight to God... that people can continue to turn a blind eye and call it "coincidence, phenomena, etc.." when even the best professionals in the field can't explain it" made all the difference.

Do you see what I mean?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi

you need caps to look cool?
Nope, they do though.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Because the parents were insane people who didnt seek medical help. their prayers went unanswered, and I have no excuse for that, but whether you believe in God or not, when your child is extremely ill, you should always seek medical help.

But I have read the start of this thread correctly, there is no need to see a doctor. God can do anything. So, the fact that you would go to a doctor, would that be a sign of lack of faith?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Because Jesus doesnt make them jump out the window. Jesus CAN, however, intervene when someone is ACCIDENTALLY injured and save them.

This is what I dont get about atheists, or others who dont believe in God. They think just because God doesnt hold their hand throughout everything they do that there is no god, and they blame god when bad things happen.

Let me simplify for you. Person A and person B both accidentally fall out of a 20 story window.

Person A) happens to survive; it someone equates to Jesus personally saving them with his love.

Person B) happens to die... Jesus who?

Oh boy,a mistaken diagnosis,that's never happened before.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
But I have read the start of this thread correctly, there is no need to see a doctor. God can do anything. So, the fact that you would go to a doctor, would that be a sign of lack of faith? OK, now you are splitting hairs. Sure, God can do anything, that doesnt mean he WILL do anything.

The parents refusing medical help and relying on their faith means they want God to do everything. God is NOT gonna do everything for us.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
OK, now you are splitting hairs. Sure, God can do anything, that doesnt mean he WILL do anything.

The parents refusing medical help and relying on their faith means they want God to do everything. God is NOT gonna do everything for us. Even though he could? Easily? What a dick.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
This is what I dont get about atheists, or others who dont believe in God. They think just because God doesnt hold their hand throughout everything they do that there is no god, and they blame god when bad things happen.

That's...probably the worst rationalization of atheist logic I've ever seen. Also, if they "blame god" for something, they aren't actually atheist, because that would have to include a belief in Him. It doesn't even make sense.



And who exactly are "others who don't believe in god" but aren't atheists? Does that subset of people exist? I mean, aside from labeling themselves differently (non-theist, non-religious, free thinker, humanitarian, etc.)....it's still the same belief (or non-belief).

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
OK, now you are splitting hairs. Sure, God can do anything, that doesnt mean he WILL do anything.

The parents refusing medical help and relying on their faith means they want God to do everything. God is NOT gonna do everything for us.

But god did everything for this guy. Was this guy of more value to god then that little girl?

Lol, atheistfags.

Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Lol, atheistfags. we are called athefags, you *****.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
That's...probably the worst rationalization of atheist logic I've ever seen. Also, if they "blame god" for something, they aren't actually atheist, because that would have to include a belief in Him. It doesn't even make sense.



And who exactly are "others who don't believe in god" but aren't atheists? Does that subset of people exist? I mean, aside from labeling themselves differently (non-theist, non-religious, free thinker, humanitarian, etc.)....it's still the same belief (or non-belief). Hey, I am only going with what I have been told by some of the atheists I have spoken to. Some of them actually do blame God when something goes wrong, or, more likely, says some shit like "Where was God when this happened" just to get their point across. Its not my fault the ones I have spoken to are idiots.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
A PET scan was done, but if you don't set up the machine correctly, or read the results incorrectly, you will get the wrong answer.

I would need more evidence and info on the technician before I claimed misreading or machine error.

There are many theoretical reasons why a PET scan may not have shown anything, or even why the brain would reduce activity during times of injury.

Not to sound pedantic, but a fMRI would be much more, though not 100%, authoritative.

Clearly, I don't see where God needs to be in order to explain this story, and why these apparently "stumped" doctors aren't being heralded as heroes...

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
But god did everything for this guy. Was this guy of more value to god then that little girl? Everything? Bullshit. God does EVERYTHING for NO ONE.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Hey, I am only going with what I have been told by some of the atheists I have spoken to. Some of them actually do blame God when something goes wrong, or, more likely, says some shit like "Where was God when this happened" just to get their point across. Its not my fault the ones I have spoken to are idiots. If they do the first they aren't atheists. If they do the second they are absolutely right, where the **** is your God when shit happens? Why is he only around in your minds when good stuff happens?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Everything? Bullshit. God does EVERYTHING for NO ONE. Dude, you should phrase more betterly.

Originally posted by Bardock42
What about the many more times that people pray for something and ... well nothing happens?

Tha lourd werks n myster'us whays....

Originally posted by Schecter
wow...a doctor mistakenly declared a man braindead. this must mean that god is real and that neoconservatives were right about terry schaivo.

Do you hear that? It's the sound of no one in congress doing anything.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Everything? Bullshit. God does EVERYTHING for NO ONE.

The Doctors gave up on this man and god saved his life, according to the thread starter.

Now, please answer my question instead of side stepping.

Originally posted by Bardock42
If they do the first they aren't atheists. If they do the second they are absolutely right, where the **** is your God when shit happens? Why is he only around in your minds when good stuff happens? God is always around, whether its good or bad things that are happening. He doesnt make these good or bad things happen, its our actions that make them happen. We have free will to act how we want, to do what we want, and there are always consequences to our actions. Sometimes good, sometimes bad. In the case of the little girl who didnt receive help, the parents should have known better.

God is only gonna do so much, the rest is up to us. He is not some babysitter, and he is not some giant in a robe with a magnifying glass toying with us as a child might do with a colony of ants.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
God is always around, whether its good or bad things that are happening. He doesnt make these good or bad things happen, its our actions that make them happen. We have free will to act how we want, to do what we want, and there are always consequences to our actions. Sometimes good, sometimes bad. In the case of the little girl who didnt receive help, the parents should have known better.

God is only gonna do so much, the rest is up to us. He is not some babysitter, and he is not some giant in a robe with a magnifying glass toying with us as a child might do with a colony of ants.

Your God's an ******* and I am happy he doesn't exist.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
God is always around, whether its good or bad things that are happening. He doesnt make these good or bad things happen, its our actions that make them happen. We have free will to act how we want, to do what we want, and there are always consequences to our actions. Sometimes good, sometimes bad. In the case of the little girl who didnt receive help, the parents should have known better.

God is only gonna do so much, the rest is up to us. He is not some babysitter, and he is not some giant in a robe with a magnifying glass toying with us as a child might do with a colony of ants.

Really now, God doesn't take a personal hand in things?

What about turning Lot's wife into salt?

What about flooding the Earth and killing everyone and everything (Arc crew aside)?

What about raining fire and brimstone upon Sodom and Gomorrah?

What about...

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
The Doctors gave up on this man and god saved his life, according to the thread starter.

Now, please answer my question instead of side stepping. who the fvck is sidestepping? Yes, they gave up on his life. Yes, he lived. Yes, I believe that it was Gods will that he lived.

Could be that God wanted it this way, for all medical help to fail, then to step in and save the mans life. Maybe he did it as a rare instance to show his divine presence. I dont know what happened, God and I havent had lunch in a few weeks.

you just have to have faith and believe that what actually happened never happened and what never happened actually happened. this makes you a good person and not an athiest ******.

Originally posted by Robtard
Really now, doesn't take a personal hand in things?

What about turning Lots wife into salt?

What about flooding the Earth and killing everyone and everything (Arc crew aside)?

What about raining fire and brimstone upon Sodom and Gomorrah?

What about... Yes, this was when God was establishing himself as our deity, when people didnt know about him as we do now. Now that he has established himself as our lord and savior, giving us the choice whether to believe in him or not, he has no need for such acts.

Damn, you guys make me feel like a holy roller, which I am not. I aint JIA.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
who the fvck is sidestepping? Yes, they gave up on his life. Yes, he lived. Yes, I believe that it was Gods will that he lived.

Could be that God wanted it this way, for all medical help to fail, then to step in and save the mans life. Maybe he did it as a rare instance to show his divine presence. I dont know what happened, God and I havent had lunch in a few weeks.

Wait, you just said "He doesnt make these good or bad things happen, its our actions that make them happen"... now God did make the man live?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Your God's an ******* and I am happy he doesn't exist. I'll send you a pack of marshmallows.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
who the fvck is sidestepping? Yes, they gave up on his life. Yes, he lived. Yes, I believe that it was Gods will that he lived.

Could be that God wanted it this way, for all medical help to fail, then to step in and save the mans life. Maybe he did it as a rare instance to show his divine presence. I dont know what happened, God and I havent had lunch in a few weeks.

Then god must have hated that little girl.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Then god must have hated that little girl. Sure, lets go with that. Talk about ignorance.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Yes, this was when God was establishing himself as our deity, when people didnt know about him as we do now. Now that he has established himself as our lord and savior, giving us the choice whether to believe in him or not, he has no need for such acts.

Damn, you guys make me feel like a holy roller, which I am not. I aint JIA.

Read Revealtions, God is certainly going to take a hand in things and do "such acts."

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Sure, lets go with that. Talk about ignorance.

I didn't want to say that about you but...

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
I'll send you a pack of marshmallows.

And I give you full credit for it, just like I do with everyone that does something, ie. no one in the case of this topic.

Just because this guy had a mistaken diagnosis god must have done it?
Give me a break.

ok, so now that this has turned from a debunked statement into yet another round of voodoo jesus freak faggotry, can we just scoot it off to the religion forum with the rest of the brain turds?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I didn't want to say that about you but... nice try, miss. you suck as a marksman.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
nice try, miss. you suck as a marksman.

Can't take a joke?

Originally posted by Robtard
Read Revealtions, God is certainly going to take a hand in things and do "such acts." I knew you would go there. So tell me, reverend, what are your thoughts on why God "allows" war, AIDS and poverty? hmm? Why has he "allowed" the world HE created to go to shit?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Can't take a joke? um.....that was a zing right back atcha.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
I knew you would go there. So tell me, reverend, what are your thoughts on why God "allows" war, AIDS and poverty? hmm? Why has he "allowed" the world HE created to go to shit?

Good question. However, it leads to a conclusion that I think you would not like.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
I knew you would go there. So tell me, reverend, what are your thoughts on why God "allows" war, AIDS and poverty? hmm? Why has he "allowed" the world HE created to go to shit?

My personal beliefs: I don't think God is the "all watchful and caring guy in the sky".

I do believe in God though, as a beginning to everything, I just don't think God keeping tabs on us.

Edit: In other words, I belive the Bible and every other religious text was written/dictated by man.

What's your excuse?

Some people want supernatural help in their lives, and they will seek it out anywhere.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Good question. However, it leads to a conclusion that I think you would not like. Try me.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Try me.

We are on our own.

Originally posted by Robtard
My personal beliefs: I don't think God is the "all watchful and caring guy in the sky".

I do believe in God though, as a beginning to everything, I just don't think God keeping tabs on us.

Edit: In other words, I belive the Bible and every other religious text was written/dictated by man.

What's your excuse?

Sounds like Albert Einstein's view on god.

Einstein believed in a god that doesn't interact with humans, doesn't interfere with human affairs, doesn't answer prayers, and doesn't take sides during wars.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
Sounds like Albert Einstein's view on god.

Einstein believed in a god that doesn't interact with humans, doesn't interfere with human affairs, doesn't answer prayers, and doesn't take sides during wars.
He also didn't believe in an individual god.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Hey, I am only going with what I have been told by some of the atheists I have spoken to. Some of them actually do blame God when something goes wrong, or, more likely, says some shit like "Where was God when this happened" just to get their point across. Its not my fault the ones I have spoken to are idiots.

No, but it's your fault for believing that a case study acts as a representative sample, then perpetuating the false (and offensive) stereotype.

Also, someone bothered to call atheists f*gs (Zeal). Um...ok. Reported for bashing.

Originally posted by Grinning Goku
Mmm... I smell an X-File...

not X-Files....

He has Claire's ability.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
No, but it's your fault for believing that a case study acts as a representative sample, then perpetuating the false (and offensive) stereotype.

Also, someone bothered to call atheists f*gs (Zeal). Um...ok. Reported for bashing.



It was a bit over the top....wasn't it? I'm surpised he hasn't earned a perma ban yet.

Well, no more threads from me.

I'm gonna say this though: God doesn't cause pain and hurt and death. That's in response to all of the: "Why does God allow bad stuff, then?" questions.

It's a result of our own sinful nature in the world, and the direct work of demons. Yup, hoogety boogetys. Not kiddin' either.

God is good, devil bad.

"The enemy comes to kill, steal, and destroy. But I came that you may have life, and live life abundantly."

We're in New Testament living now, New covenant.

People put alot of stuff on God that He doesn't do. He allows us to go our own way, and if we're not with Him, not under cover, then we're out there in the devil's world. And he'll jack you up.

Those that are saved, are praying, and prayers are answered all the time.

Missed diagnosis or not, the boy was called brain dead, and less than a few hours from being killed by having his organs harvested. Grandma prayed, and lo and behold, the nurses "on a hunch" decide to run a knife on his heel. With no reason to, with a conclusive PET run already, they just got the instinct, or urge to do it.

That's God at work to me.

And it happens all the time, in plenty of situations. (some of which I've described in this and other threads.)

But it's always blown off as "coincidence" of a false diagnosis or whatever. The family member or friend that prays for the healing just happened to be there when what they just happened to be praying for happens.

Ok, whatever helps you sleep at night.

Personally, I sleep better knowing that I pray effective prayers that the living God hears.

And apparently some others in the news feel that way too.

If you cannot see the simple logic that says that the fact that there are many, MANY times people have uttered simiular prayers and come unanswered means that your basic supposition is flawed says little for you.

Also if you cannot see that the simplest and most straightforward answer is a misdiagnosis then that is simply the atittude of a fool.

Human error before miracles, I am afraid.

Originally posted by sithsaber408

It's a result of our own sinful nature in the world, and the direct work of demons. Yup, hoogety boogetys. Not kiddin' either.


Just to be sure. Who created sin, demons and the devil again?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Just to be sure. Who created sin, demons and the devil again?

God created sin.

There are cases in which people are pinned between life and death. Some live others just don't....how did they survive? Who knows.....they are indeed mysteries in our world.

Also, I have a problem with the misdiagnosis comments. How can something as severe and deadly as brain damage could be misdiagnose? Having heart burn and thinking it's a heart attack is self diagnose. A doctor performing X-rays and a MRI and blood samples is a diagnosis....

Whatever happen to this guy...I'm sure his family is very thankful for it.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
There are cases in which people are pinned between life and death. Some live others just don't....how did they survive? Who knows.....they are indeed mysteries in our world.

Also, I have a problem with the misdiagnosis comments. How can something as severe and deadly as brain damage could be misdiagnose? Having heart burn and thinking it's a heart attack is self diagnose. A doctor performing X-rays and a MRI and blood samples is a diagnosis....

Whatever happen to this guy...I'm sure his family is very thankful for it. If a diagnosis is wrong it is called a misdiagnosis.

Originally posted by Bardock42
If a diagnosis is wrong it is called a misdiagnosis.

Thank you Dr. Bardock42.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Thank you Dr. Bardock42. Welcome.

They didn't diagnose brain damage, they said brain damage after such a thing was very likely. Note likely, not inevitable.

Misdiagnosis that he was brain dead is not only possible but... evidently 100% so in this situation.

And it's not even that fair to call it human error because the fact remains that we are still not scientifically sure what the literal point of death is, we can only make informed guesses. That's why it is not always right.

But a hundred years ago, with much less sensitive instruments, we were even less right. Plenty of people would have been called dead then which we wouldn't diagnose so now. Some of those people would have got up and walked away after being prayed for.

By sithsaber's logic, they would have all been miracles and put down to God. But if the same cases had happened today they simply would not have been called dead in the first place- so no miracle, no God held responsible. The only difference? Our ability to diagnose. This clearly marks out sithsaber's logic as preposterous.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if heaven is going to be full of people like sithsaber and JIA - I'll opt for going to hell.

Originally posted by dadudemon
It was a bit over the top....wasn't it? I'm surpised he hasn't earned a perma ban yet.

He's got 3 warnings already (one from me, actually). A temp ban likely isn't far off, though it may not be for this particular altercation.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
He's got 3 warnings already (one from me, actually). A temp ban likely isn't far off, though it may not be for this particular altercation.

Sithsabre and any other Christians, what do you think of the parents who neglected to give thier child medical attention which could/would have saved them and decided just to pray for a miracle instead? Should they be charged? Are they in their rights to do what they did? Were they right to l"et God decide?"

Originally posted by Robtard
Sithsabre and any other Christians, what do you think of the parents who neglected to give thier child medical attention which could/would have saved them and decided just to pray for a miracle instead? Should they be charged? Are they in their rights to do what they did? Were they right to l"et God decide?"

Was that and indirect reference to Emily Rose?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0404032/

Originally posted by Bardock42
He also didn't believe in an individual god.

So he was a polytheist?

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
So he was a polytheist?

His definition for God was basically equivalent to the physical forces of the universe. When he spoke of God, it wasn't an individual personal deity, but rather the wonder and awe that the universe is capable of creating in us.

His "God doesn't play dice." comment is usually taken out of context, and occasionally theists try to "claim" Einstein for their own, but he was on record multiple times as saying he didn't believe in a personal god, in the Western sense of the word.

Hope that clears things up.

Originally posted by Robtard
Sithsabre and any other Christians, what do you think of the parents who neglected to give thier child medical attention which could/would have saved them and decided just to pray for a miracle instead? Should they be charged? Are they in their rights to do what they did? Were they right to l"et God decide?"

A good question. Unfortunately it assumes that all christians place absolute trust in divine intervention. Most do not, however. Most would chaulk it up to trusting god when it works out, when they consider him at all in a fortunate situation, and assuming it's a mysterious motive when it doesn't.

Many people, religious or otherwise, claim their backs were being watched by something divine when they survive a terrible experience long enough to realize how lucky they were. How many dead people are still around to damn the idea of divine intervention when happenstance doesn't favor their outcome? Moreover, how does the majority of examples not reflecting the love of an all-knowing god not also support the idea that we are inherently evil and most of us have fallen prey to the temptations of satan and are getting our dues in god's grand scheme and just purpose for this existence? Apparently, everything happens for a reason, when we have no reason to justify it; so we offer it up to divine countenance, when it suits us or justifies why terrible things happen despite our faith.

Originally posted by Robtard
My personal beliefs: I don't think God is the "all watchful and caring guy in the sky".

I do believe in God though, as a beginning to everything, I just don't think God keeping tabs on us.

Edit: In other words, I belive the Bible and every other religious text was written/dictated by man.

What's your excuse? my excuse why the world has gone to shit? because we made it go to shit, we did it, not god. ever hear the old saying "dont shit where you sleep?"

Holy dying children, Batman!!!

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,341869,00.html


Thanks, Shaky, for the article.


I can't believe bullshit like this happens. I would work 3 or more jobs if it meant my children could get medical help...why didn't these parents get medical help?

Originally posted by dadudemon
Holy dying children, Batman!!!

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,341869,00.html


Thanks, Shaky, for the article.


I can't believe bullshit like this happens. I would work 3 or more jobs if it meant my children could get medical help...why didn't these parents get medical help? lol that story proves gods either a dick or not real

Originally posted by chickenlover98
lol that story proves gods either a dick or not real

oooooor, more apathetic than most Christians would believe.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Holy dying children, Batman!!!

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,341869,00.html


Thanks, Shaky, for the article.


I can't believe bullshit like this happens. I would work 3 or more jobs if it meant my children could get medical help...why didn't these parents get medical help?

But, despite your inability to believe it, it does happen. And more people die because of it than are saved because of it.

Originally posted by Devil King
But, despite your inability to believe it, it does happen. And more people die because of it than are saved because of it.
Bitchy post + "duh" = ?

Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Bitchy post + "duh" = ?

You can't possibly be calling people who place their faith in divine intervention over a cold more important than a person realizing they have to take care of themslves, can you?

Which party serves the other; God or the people?

Originally posted by Devil King
Which party serves the other; God or the people?

hmm

Yes.

Originally posted by dadudemon
hmm

Yes.

not really a question of chin-scratching for a guy that is a hair's breadth away from atheism.

Originally posted by Devil King
not really a question of chin-scratching for a guy that is a hair's breadth away from atheism.

not really the response I'd expect from DK about a smart ass post.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
So he was a polytheist? No, what Digi said.

Originally posted by dadudemon
not really the response I'd expect from DK about a smart ass post.

Not really an answer, period. Especially from someone so close to atheism.

Originally posted by Devil King
Not really an answer, period. Especially from someone so close to atheism.

out of context much?

Originally posted by dadudemon
out of context much?

10 posts later? No.

Originally posted by Devil King
10 posts later? No.

10?

What does that have to do with me answer a "choice" question with a "yes"?

is it because I am married?

Originally posted by dadudemon
10?

What does that have to do with me answer a "choice" question with a "yes"?

is it because I am married?

you mean a "smart ass answer"?

Originally posted by Devil King
you mean a "smart ass answer"?

Sorry, my bad...it was supposed to read like this:

"10?

What does that have to do with me answering a "choice" question with a "yes"?

is it because I am married?"

In other words, my "yes" was a smart ass answer. I was supposed to chose one of two scenarios and instead I answered "yes".


Edit- EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

Originally posted by Devil King
You can't possibly be calling people who place their faith in divine intervention over a cold more important than a person realizing they have to take care of themslves, can you?

Which party serves the other; God or the people?
It was a bitchy post with an obvious statement.

1. Dadudemon was using the expression "I can't believe..." which does not actually indicate a lack of belief.

2. More people dying from not getting medical treatment (instead of praying) is obvious.

It wasn't an attack on my part; I was just a little confused. Also, the flames run high whenever dadudemon posts.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Sorry, my bad...it was supposed to read like this:

"10?

What does that have to do with me answering a "choice" question with a "yes"?

is it because I am married?"

In other words, my "yes" was a smart ass answer. I was supposed to chose one of two scenarios and instead I answered "yes".


Edit- EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE! Well, I suppose you are correct if you think that either God or the people serve the other.

Take the religious discussion to the Religion forum, f@ggots.

Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
It was a bitchy post with an obvious statement.

1. Dadudemon was using the expression "I can't believe..." which does not actually indicate a lack of belief.

2. More people dying from not getting medical treatment (instead of praying) is obvious.

It wasn't an attack on my part; I was just a little confused. Also, the flames run high whenever dadudemon posts.

I prayed yesterday, which was the same as hoping it wasn't so.

Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Take the religious discussion to the Religion forum, f@ggots.
I think we are approaching it from a logic and flame dadudemon angle.

Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Take the religious discussion to the Religion forum, f@ggots.

Has the though of Jesus, even in passing, ever crossed your mind during masturbation? Be honest.

damn that kid is lucky. should've wore a helmut

as far as jesus saving him.. maybe. i doubt it. they're just saying that to get invited on oprah

Originally posted by red g jacks
damn that kid is lucky. should've wore a helmut

as far as jesus saving him.. maybe. i doubt it. they're just saying that to get invited on oprah

You are brilliant.

Hell, I'd probably say Jesus saved me to get on Oprah. Or Satan, which would get me on Oprah, and also get me psychotic media coverage and cult status with the goth inner-city underground. I'd start a clothing line.

Yeah.

How many prayers are said every day? How many do you say in a month sith? You work in a church, how much do people pray? Do you think it is possible that things like the stuff you said happens, and someone prayed and God didn't intervene? Like, he knew it was going to turn out well anyways, and just left it? If it is possible, do you think God would still get the credit from the person that prayed?

Originally posted by Bardock42
How many prayers are said every day? How many do you say in a month sith? You work in a church, how much do people pray? Do you think it is possible that things like the stuff you said happens, and someone prayed and God didn't intervene? Like, he knew it was going to turn out well anyways, and just left it? If it is possible, do you think God would still get the credit from the person that prayed?

Maybe if he saved his receipt?

The more sobering conclusions when it comes to prayer is simply that it's an inevitability that many will be "answered" (i.e. the outcome will be what was prayed for, regardless of deity).

This is why the opening post's comments that downplay "coincidence" are sadly misinformed. Pray for a hundred thousand things (not outlandish for, say, a national output of prayers per day) and statistical certainty ensures that a fair number of them will be "answered" (again, I use quotations because no literal answer needs to happen). Calling it coincidence at all is to misunderstand the concept, and also the level of predictability of such outcomes.

But people tend to remember hits and forget the misses. So we see miraculous Jesus cures in the media, or propagated through anecdotal sources (Chicken Soup books, email forwards, internet forums, word of mouth, etc.) and used as evidence. But no one bothers to print the statistics of failed prayers, or even in cases like this the percentages of misdiagnoses. A religious answer suffices for most people, rather than empirically investigating the situation.

So if you're religious and looking for confirmation of such beliefs, you get the "Look at all the prayers that are answered!" rather than realizing that it would be a bigger miracle if none of them were, simply because the law of averages ensures that many will. It's sobering to realize that to a person who understands the facts correctly, you would have an easier time convincing him/her of divine intervention if no one was ever saved by prayer.

It's the same confirmation bias used by psychics, afterlife mediums, and paranormal occultists that rely on the credulity of the general public for such things.

...

Then there's the matter of evidence. People can believe what they will, but if there is intervention of some sort, it doesn't remain fully transcendent to our reality...for God to intervene there needs to be a physical outcome. Which is testable. So far, no evidence has ever been found of such intervention, which is why such stories remain just that: stories. Not evidence.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
True, but that's an entirely different sort of prayer, and wasn't really the focus of my critique. Prayer, meditative exercises, or just quiet down-time for relaxation can be worthwhile endeavors, but the religious import attached to them often leads people to make false conclusions about prayer, which is where my problem lies.

It's like alternative medicine. Advocates love pointing out the documented healing properties of relaxation techniques, which is entirely valid. Reduced stress is know to aid traditional medical practice. But then they use it to push their own brand of snake oil that goes beyond documented science. Acupuncture, aroma or music therapy, herbal supplements, homeopathic remedies, crystal or magnet healing, all fall into this category. At best, they have similar effects to regular meditation or a massage, and are otherwise a placebo. At worst, they actually have negative affects.

The same can be said of prayer. At best, a spiritual placebo. At worst, people refusing medical treatment because "God heals." The perceived answered prayers are essentially analogous to a placebo affect, where the person is reading further into the conclusions than the evidence warrants. But any claims of divine intervention tacitly support such thinking, so even people who wouldn't deny medical care are still helping to provide the basis upon which the harmful consequences of prayer happen.

I realize it was not your focus, but I just had to butt in.

I heard a Doctor one time say that he was surprised that other doctors were so upset about the placebo effect. As long as you don't take it to a point where it can be harmful, like you said about, it can be the best medicine. The person gets better, and there are no side effects.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I realize it was not your focus, but I just had to butt in.

I heard a Doctor one time say that he was surprised that other doctors were so upset about the placebo effect. As long as you don't take it to a point where it can be harmful, like you said about, it can be the best medicine. The person gets better, and there are no side effects.

The problem lies in the fact that placebos generally only work when people literally believe they are being cured by the placebo...in other words, they aren't aware of it. This ignorance leads to taking the ideas too far, which many of the things I listed in my last post would fall into. At that point, it becomes a money-making scheme that exploits peoples' credulity and sometimes even has negative consequences.

So the doctor was partially right. The placebo effect isn't harmful in and of itself, but his view of the situation was too limited to see the more real dangers.

You guys made this topic boring. It was so much fun before.

...and its off topic. wrong forum in fact.

Originally posted by Bardock42
You guys made this topic boring. It was so much fun before.

You fed up ? Go jump off a building ; we start over. Cool?

Originally posted by Bardock42
How many prayers are said every day? How many do you say in a month sith? You work in a church, how much do people pray?

Cause you can tell. It's like living in a house with a smoker. Eventually the walls turn yellow and when you rehang a picture there's a clean spot on the wall. If you spend the evening in the house of someone who prays, you have to go home and immeadiately wash your clothes.

Originally posted by Devil King
Cause you can tell. It's like living in a house with a smoker. Eventually the walls turn yellow and when you rehang a picture there's a clean spot on the wall. If you spend the evening in the house of someone who prays, you have to go home and immeadiately wash your clothes. Are you poking fun at me?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Are you poking fun at me?

no, I'm poking fun at prayer.

Originally posted by Devil King
no, I'm poking fun at prayer. Proceed.

Originally posted by Robtard
My personal beliefs: I don't think God is the "all watchful and caring guy in the sky".

I do believe in God though, as a beginning to everything, I just don't think God keeping tabs on us.

Edit: In other words, I belive the Bible and every other religious text was written/dictated by man.

What's your excuse? i follow pretty much the same philosophy.

Originally posted by Bardock42
How many prayers are said every day? How many do you say in a month sith? You work in a church, how much do people pray? Do you think it is possible that things like the stuff you said happens, and someone prayed and God didn't intervene? Like, he knew it was going to turn out well anyways, and just left it? If it is possible, do you think God would still get the credit from the person that prayed?

I say alot. I pray often. Shoot, an hour on Thursday morning, 1 1/2 hours on Friday, and an hour of Saturday night are PART of my work week.

I see answers to prayers all the time.

In just the last month:

An answered prayer for a couple that on Sunday had until Friday afternoon to come up with 2 months worth of rent, had no work in 3 months, had gotten behind in bills, and within that Sunday-Friday time frame, had gotten 3 months worth of rent. (new jobs, a contractor)

A healing of asthma that literally had the 13 year old boys chest moving, waves pulsing up and down his shirt. (see my testimony thread in the religion forum.)

And just today, in our Thursday morning prayer, we'd taken the requests turned in on Sunday, and were praying for a young couple where the husband had been out of work since Christmas. I'm not lying when I tell you that we got a call as soon as prayer was over, and he'd been hired at 9:00 in the morning, right about the time that we were actually praying for him.


As far as people praying and not receiving an answer, I don't know what you mean. We pray for the needs that people turn in and I'd say that 3/4 of them are answered within a week or 2. The other 1/4 come to pass later on, and usually there was some good reasoning that God had.

Example: One young couple that lived in Yuba City, about 45 min. from our church in Roseville, had been praying and believing for a new job, and new place to live that would be much closer. They wanted to help and serve more at the church. The prayers didn't seem to be answered. In the meantime, the wife's younger sister (16) ended up having to leave the home of their other sister due to a divorce. (they had custody of her) So the younger sister came to live with this couple for a few months, until she ended up being placed with another family in our church, through social services. And what happened? JUST as she was moving, the husband got a job as a supervisor for a company that said they had no supervisor positions, living on site (apartment complex maintenance manager),when they said that they had no homes on site, and making more money than they ever had before.

The answer to the prayer wasn't "No", but it was "wait, because I have a reason for this." They were able to help the 16 year old sister, speak into her life and encourage her, and after she was put in a good home, the timing was right for them and they received even MORE than what they had asked God for.



Y'all showed up a little too late in the game to tell me that prayer doesn't work and that God isn't real. You give hypothetical examples of people :"Well what if so and so prayed for such and such and it didn't happen, where's God then?" but you don't know anybody, or have actual people telling you that.

Every testimony I've ever given, from my wife's father healed of Hepatitis C, to the healing of the boy with the torn and ruptured spleen, to the ones above, are real people who I know and talk to.

Their word of testimony trumps your unbelief, every time.

(a quick note: somebody who prays for something, but doesn't really believe it, or only half believes it isn't going to receive anything. The book of James talks about this saying: "How can any man expect to receive anything from God if he is of two minds?" So that may be the part of some peoples problems. I've yet to see anybody ask anything of God with TRUE faith, REALLY believing in HIM that He'll do it, then not see it happen. At least, not any people that I know.)

Did anyone pray on Sept 10th 2001?

Someone must have.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Did anyone pray on Sept 10th 2001?

Someone must have.

-AC

At least 19.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Did anyone pray on Sept 10th 2001?

Someone must have.

-AC

Yeah, but they were praying to the wrong god. Some of them were catholic, hindu and muslim gods. What a waste of effort.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
I say alot. I pray often. Shoot, an hour on Thursday morning, 1 1/2 hours on Friday, and an hour of Saturday night are PART of my work week.

You're special because god pencils you in to his schedule 3 times a week. And for over an hour each time, no less!

What the hell do you pray for that it takes an hour? And isn't praying really a waste of god's time? I mean, if he knows everything, isn't prayer redundant? Isn't it kind of like spam mail?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Did anyone pray on Sept 10th 2001?

Someone must have.

-AC Thought about making that one. But I remembered most people don't really remember September 11th was a tuesday, and if you can't use the correct phrasing, what's the point.

I don't mind the idea that prayer as a means for a man or woman to settle their issues with themselves and their God, but I don't think it's wise to consider it a way to ask God for things that will then be granted.

That just seems stupid to me.

-AC

Originally posted by sithsaber408
I say alot. I pray often. Shoot, an hour on Thursday morning, 1 1/2 hours on Friday, and an hour of Saturday night are PART of my work week.

I see answers to prayers all the time.

In just the last month:

An answered prayer for a couple that on Sunday had until Friday afternoon to come up with 2 months worth of rent, had no work in 3 months, had gotten behind in bills, and within that Sunday-Friday time frame, had gotten 3 months worth of rent. (new jobs, a contractor)

A healing of asthma that literally had the 13 year old boys chest moving, waves pulsing up and down his shirt. (see my testimony thread in the religion forum.)

And just today, in our Thursday morning prayer, we'd taken the requests turned in on Sunday, and were praying for a young couple where the husband had been out of work since Christmas. I'm not lying when I tell you that we got a call as soon as prayer was over, and he'd been hired at 9:00 in the morning, right about the time that we were actually praying for him.


As far as people praying and not receiving an answer, I don't know what you mean. We pray for the needs that people turn in and I'd say that 3/4 of them are answered within a week or 2. The other 1/4 come to pass later on, and usually there was some good reasoning that God had.

Example: One young couple that lived in Yuba City, about 45 min. from our church in Roseville, had been praying and believing for a new job, and new place to live that would be much closer. They wanted to help and serve more at the church. The prayers didn't seem to be answered. In the meantime, the wife's younger sister (16) ended up having to leave the home of their other sister due to a divorce. (they had custody of her) So the younger sister came to live with this couple for a few months, until she ended up being placed with another family in our church, through social services. And what happened? JUST as she was moving, the husband got a job as a supervisor for a company that said they had no supervisor positions, living on site (apartment complex maintenance manager),when they said that they had no homes on site, and making more money than they ever had before.

The answer to the prayer wasn't "No", but it was "wait, because I have a reason for this." They were able to help the 16 year old sister, speak into her life and encourage her, and after she was put in a good home, the timing was right for them and they received even MORE than what they had asked God for.



Y'all showed up a little too late in the game to tell me that prayer doesn't work and that God isn't real. You give hypothetical examples of people :"Well what if so and so prayed for such and such and it didn't happen, where's God then?" but you don't know anybody, or have actual people telling you that.

Every testimony I've ever given, from my wife's father healed of Hepatitis C, to the healing of the boy with the torn and ruptured spleen, to the ones above, are real people who I know and talk to.

Their word of testimony trumps your unbelief, every time.

(a quick note: somebody who prays for something, but doesn't really believe it, or only half believes it isn't going to receive anything. The book of James talks about this saying: "How can any man expect to receive anything from God if he is of two minds?" So that may be the part of some peoples problems. I've yet to see anybody ask anything of God with TRUE faith, REALLY believing in HIM that He'll do it, then not see it happen. At least, not any people that I know.) So you are saying that you never prayed for a terminally ill patient and they didn't get healed? Or don't you take that request.

****, if you are actually correct, check this out http://www.randi.org/joom/challenge-info.html , prove that your prayers work (shouldn't be hard with a 100% success rate) get a huge chunk of money to help your church and poor people and whatever you Christian weirdos are into and show the world the most convincing and largest testimony yet. Just...when you get the money, don't forget I linked you up, I hope you see a fair share for me in your heart.

Sithsaber, I was curious if you read my formal rebuttal (as opposed to the casual dismissal earlier when I didn't have time to type everything out). I've added a little bit to it as well in the following quote, so even if you did it might be worth another look (new sections are italicized):

Originally posted by DigiMark007
The more sobering conclusions when it comes to prayer is simply that it's an inevitability that many will be "answered" (i.e. the outcome will be what was prayed for, regardless of deity).

This is why the opening post's comments that downplay "coincidence" are sadly misinformed. Pray for a hundred thousand things (not outlandish for, say, a national output of prayers per day) and statistical certainty ensures that a fair number of them will be "answered" (again, I use quotations because no literal answer needs to happen). Calling it coincidence at all is to misunderstand the concept, and also the level of predictability of such outcomes.

But people tend to remember hits and forget the misses. So we see miraculous Jesus cures in the media, or propagated through anecdotal sources (Chicken Soup books, email forwards, internet forums, word of mouth, etc.) and used as evidence. But no one bothers to print the statistics of failed prayers, or even in cases like this the percentages of misdiagnoses. A religious answer suffices for most people, rather than empirically investigating the situation.

And "normal" people remember the hits and forget the misses, so when you are suddenly convinced that God intervenes via prayer, these people will be even more likely to search for something that they consider success. Maybe it isn't exactly what they prayed for, but it's similar. This is chalked up to "God's Plan" without considering that perhaps the prayer was ineffectual. And if they pray for something and it happens the next day, it's a "hit." But if it happens in 5 years, such fanaticism will still lead people to call it a success...it was just God waiting for the right time. Given such vague criteria, it's no wonder sithsaber pronounces that "Probably 3/4 of the prayers are answered." Selective interpretation, vague criterion for success and variable timeframes, the aforementioned statistical certainty, and the likelihood that 3/4 is an exaggeration brought about by selective memory of successes as opposed to failures, and this is exactly what one would expect. No miracle, simply a stretching of credulity past the breaking point mixed with a confirmation bias that is commonplace in the faithful.

So if you're religious and looking for confirmation of such beliefs, you get the "Look at all the prayers that are answered!" rather than realizing that it would be a bigger miracle if none of them were, simply because the law of averages ensures that many will. It's sobering to realize that to a person who understands the facts correctly, you would have an easier time convincing him/her of divine intervention if no one was ever saved by prayer.

It's the same confirmation bias used by psychics, afterlife mediums, and paranormal occultists that rely on the credulity of the general public for such things.

...

Then there's the matter of evidence. People can believe what they will, but if there is intervention of some sort, it doesn't remain fully transcendent to our reality...for God to intervene there needs to be a physical outcome. If a patient is dead, for example, then brought back to life by God, a physical change takes place that is outside the normal laws of causality. Such things are testable. So far, no evidence has ever been found of such intervention, which is why such stories remain just that: stories. Not evidence.

One also wonders, speaking of evidence, why prayer is needed to perform such acts of intervention in the first place. If something is God's Plan, prayers will neither aid the intended outcome nor prevent it. And if the intervention is brought about by prayer, we have a case of people determining what should and shouldn't happen...in this scenario, no unalterable Plan exists, but it is merely God's whim as to which ones to respond to and which ones not to. If he only responds to prayers in his "Plan" it robs people of the illusion of free will (central to Christianity) and if it solely the peoples' will (It can't be, because then no one would ever die) then it robs God of his omnipotence. Various theological responses attempt to validate this, because the need for prayer must be shown to congregations of followers. But none logically hold up.

I'm curious to see if you have a response. I don't want to come across as negative, and hope we can engage in a respectful discussion, but these are legitimate flaws that I see in your interpretation of such events.

As far as I understand it....Prayer isn't bargaining. It's spiritual moment of hope.

So, all that "pray and you don't get results" it's off if you think this is some way to get a better deal while praying.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
As far as I understand it....Prayer isn't bargaining. It's spiritual moment of hope.

But that isn't what is being argued with this report. He's saying there is direct intervention as a result of prayer. I want to hear him defend himself in light of the objections I have raised.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I don't mind the idea that prayer as a means for a man or woman to settle their issues with themselves and their God, but I don't think it's wise to consider it a way to ask God for things that will then be granted.

That just seems stupid to me.

-AC

Still sore about never receiving that puppy, huh?

Originally posted by DigiMark007
But that isn't what is being argued with this report. He's saying there is direct intervention as a result of prayer. I want to hear him defend himself in light of the objections I have raised.

I will be surprised if he gives you anything more then an insult.

Originally posted by Bardock42
So you are saying that you never prayed for a terminally ill patient and they didn't get healed? Or don't you take that request.

****, if you are actually correct, check this out http://www.randi.org/joom/challenge-info.html , prove that your prayers work (shouldn't be hard with a 100% success rate) get a huge chunk of money to help your church and poor people and whatever you Christian weirdos are into and show the world the most convincing and largest testimony yet. Just...when you get the money, don't forget I linked you up, I hope you see a fair share for me in your heart.

That's a complaint I've had for years with Christian's that proclaim they've personally seen people cured of terminal diseases and even the miraculous regrowth or limbs. I went over it with JIA about a year ago.

If it indeed is true and is so common, all they need do is film it, hire an objective 3rd party to verify and walla, millions of converts and the spread of Jesus' love, hallelujah. What better way to spread "the word", than with miracles.

Also, why not send these faith healers to children's cancer and burn hospitals, and have them heal every sick child?

Edit: Sithsabre, concerning my last paragraph on top, why not? If anyone deserves Jesus' love, it would be the "sinless" children.

Originally posted by Robtard
Also, why not send these faith healers to children's cancer and burn hospitals, and have them heal every sick child?

Because sick kids don't have major cedit cards or paypal accounts?

Originally posted by Robtard
Still sore about never receiving that puppy, huh?

It mostly hurts at night.

Mostly.

-AC

Originally posted by Robtard
That's a complaint I've had for years with Christian's that proclaim they've personally seen people cured of terminal diseases and even the miraculous regrowth or limbs. I went over it with JIA about a year ago.

If it indeed is true and is so common, all they need do is film it, hire an objective 3rd party to verify and walla, millions of converts and the spread of Jesus' love, hallelujah. What better way to spread "the word", than with miracles.

Also, why not send these faith healers to children's cancer and burn hospitals, and have them heal every sick child?

Edit: Sithsabre, concerning my last paragraph on top, why not? If anyone deserves Jesus' love, it would be the "sinless" children.

And even awards like Randi's would be small potatoes. For such proof, the person who comes forward with it would receive the Nobel Prize for the discovery, have book and movie deals, etc.

Originally posted by Devil King
Because sick kids don't have major cedit cards or paypal accounts?


Ohh ho ho ho ho...

That is some pretty malicious cynicism right there...

Isn't it a little early for Christmas? Besides, we just celebrated Jesus' return by hunting for eggs.

Originally posted by Robtard
Isn't it a little early for Christmas? Besides, we just celebrated Jesus' return by hunting for eggs.

We did?

I thought I spent a bundle of money on candy, gifts, gasoline(for driving, you cynic), and eggs for other people's children. I most certainly didn't hunt any eggs. I spent money so other parents children could hunt for eggs. (Okay, I admit, my son hunted for eggs as well...)

Do you want a miracle?

Here's a miracle...


It is a miracle I did smack the shit out of some of those loud mouth disrespectful children. That is a damned miracle. Concourses of angels sang ever time I stilled my hand.

Here is my favorite quote from this last Easter:

Me- "Don't paint and draw on that wall. That is very naughty."

Little Girl- "I don't have to listen to you. You aren't my daddy."


That day, a miracle happened. A little girl did not die from strangulation. I saved her.

Ah, the anecdotal torture that is dadudemon - I wonder if hell will be like that.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It mostly hurts at night.

Mostly.

-AC

aaawww....newt