Punisher vs Crossbones H2H

K3VIL

Frank will show is own, but Crossbones takes this 7/10.The guy has received no sort of enhancement and is a match for Cap, through physical training he became Peak Human, despite not being a true supersoldier, to me he's the man.Damn, he even spared Cap's life cause he saw his old enemy wasn't ok, Cap at the time was having visions of his past but distorted, and seeing he couldn't fight at the peak of his abilities, he sayed he wouldn't kill him with an advantage.

Phantom Zone

Originally posted by K3VIL
Frank will show is own, but Crossbones takes this 7/10.The guy has received no sort of enhancement and is a match for Cap, through physical training he became Peak Human, despite not being a true supersoldier, to me he's the man.Damn, he even spared Cap's life cause he saw his old enemy wasn't ok, Cap at the time was having visions of his past but distorted, and seeing he couldn't fight at the peak of his abilities, he sayed he wouldn't kill him with an advantage.

Hes only a match for Cap if Cap is disadvantaged.....apart from the xample you have given Crossbones gave Steve a good fight when Cap didnt have the SSS.

Considering that Frank has stomped Bullseyes and BW, im giving it 6/10 to Crossbones. erm

Battlehammer

Originally posted by Phantom Zone

Considering that Frank has stomped Bullseyes and BW, im giving it 6/10 to Crossbones. erm

stomped? Are young fing kidding me? He did not stomp any thing. He was able to gain the advantage vs a bullseye who was toying with him. There was nothing closes to a stomp there. As for BW how do you stomp some one with out landing a hit? Your idea of stomp is quite skewed.

Etrigan

Frank's beating of Bullseye was far from a stomp. I'd say their match was pretty even.

But Crossbones still wins 8/10.

Phantom Zone

Originally posted by Battlehammer
stomped? Are young fing kidding me? He did not stomp any thing. He was able to gain the advantage vs a bullseye who was toying with him. There was nothing closes to a stomp there.

Even if he was toying with him he should have been good enough to turn it around. Furthermore since has good showings against DD, BW and Wolverine he should be able to beat him.

Originally posted by Battlehammer

As for BW how do you stomp some one with out landing a hit? Your idea of stomp is quite skewed.

I think you need to read the scans again.

Originally posted by Etrigan
Frank's beating of Bullseye was far from a stomp. I'd say their match was pretty even.

But Crossbones still wins 8/10.

Why?

Etrigan

Why? If you're asking why to my first statement, then because Bullseye got some pretty solid hits in before Frank got the upper hand on him.

For the second statement, it's because Crossbones is practically a super-soldier who can hang with and has beaten a good healthy Captain America. Punisher has admitted before that in hand to hand he would lose to Cap, so I reckon he would lose to Crossbones without weapons or prep.

Phantom Zone

Originally posted by Etrigan
Why? If you're asking why to my first statement, then because Bullseye got some pretty solid hits in before Frank got the upper hand on him.

Oh no I wanst refering to that you were right.

Originally posted by Etrigan

For the second statement, it's because Crossbones is practically a super-soldier who can hang with and has beaten a good healthy Captain America. Punisher has admitted before that in hand to hand he would lose to Cap, so I reckon he would lose to Crossbones without weapons or prep.

Are you sure about that...Crossbones has lost to Cap when he didnt have the SSS.

Also.....

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/6277/capvspun1oz4.th.jpg
http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/9010/capvspun32gibn3.th.jpg
http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/6694/capvspun43qmzl8.th.jpg

Etrigan

That's a fair point. But in the old Punisher respect thread I recall reading a fight where Punisher fought Cap and admitted that he would lose hand-to-hand, and so had to escape him by helicopter. And Crossbones has lost to Cap before, yeah, but he generally would give Cap trouble in H2H so I'm willing to bet he would give quite a bit more of that trouble to Punisher. Punisher's a good H2H combatant, but I feel that he simply doesn't have what it takes to bring down a super-soldier without weaponry.

Bentley

Lets see some facts: Punisher said that Bucky would kill him in hand to hand. Crossbones shit-stomped Bucky until he drew a gun and shot CB while dropping through a window.

Crossbones 10/10

Phantom Zone

Originally posted by Etrigan
That's a fair point. But in the old Punisher respect thread I recall reading a fight where Punisher fought Cap and admitted that he would lose hand-to-hand, and so had to escape him by helicopter.

I honestly think that was bad writing because if you look at the above feat Frank really should be able to hold his own against Cap. Its just that nowhere days some writers think that Frank is just a guy with a gun...yeah anyway that did happen.

Originally posted by Etrigan

And Crossbones has lost to Cap before, yeah, but he generally would give Cap trouble in H2H so I'm willing to bet he would give quite a bit more of that trouble to Punisher. Punisher's a good H2H combatant, but I feel that he simply doesn't have what it takes to bring down a super-soldier without weaponry.

Ok but do you have lots of examples of him giving Cap trouble in H2H with the SSS, because I think in other examples hes used prep.

Originally posted by Bentley
Lets see some facts: Punisher said that Bucky would kill him in hand to hand. Crossbones shit-stomped Bucky until he drew a gun and shot CB while dropping through a window.

Crossbones 10/10

I dunno man WS has beaten the **** out of Crossbones before. Frank has actually beaten DD before and ****ed him up, so really Crossbones should not win 10/10

Etrigan

I think 10/10 is taking it too far; Punisher is very skilled in H2H, while not on Crossbones level I think he could make a worthy attempt.

Battlehammer

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Even if he was toying with him he should have been good enough to turn it around. Furthermore since has good showings against DD, BW and Wolverine he should be able to beat him.

I think you need to read the scans again.

Maybe maybe not. If one gets to over confident a lesser fighter can gain the advantage which is what clearly happen. It was also far from a stomp.

He also has some very shitty showings vs dd as well, BW fight was far to short to show anything, Wolverine fight was not h2h and if it was h2h punisher would loses with in a pannel.

No I really don't need to read the scann again Punisher never hit BW while they fought, let alone stompped her.

Etrigan

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Ok but do you have lots of examples of him giving Cap trouble in H2H with the SSS, because I think in other examples hes used prep.

During the Kingpin/Red Skull fight (I believe it's in the Kingpin respect thread) Crossbones gave Cap plenty of trouble, at one part outsmarted him and managed to wrench his shield away from him.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone I dunno man WS has beaten the **** out of Crossbones before. Frank has actually beaten DD before and ****ed him up, so really Crossbones should not win 10/10

When the hell has Frank ever ****ed Daredevil up?

BUSTER1

Ican't understand why so many people reckon Crossbones takes Frank easily. Neither are enhanced, but both have outstanding unarmed combat skills. Both men could, unarmed, take on a gang of ordinary thugs and and beat them up.
Until I see a fight between the 2 that proves otherwise, I say its 5/5 or 6/4 either way

Etrigan

Yeah, they are both outstanding in unarmed combat, but Crossbones is stronger and faster s well as that, which tips the scales in his favour. I think if he could get hold of Frank, maybe break his neck or take one of his eyes, then it would all be over.

BUSTER1

Originally posted by Etrigan
During the Kingpin/Red Skull fight (I believe it's in the Kingpin respect thread) Crossbones gave Cap plenty of trouble, at one part outsmarted him and managed to wrench his shield away from him.

When the hell has Frank ever ****ed Daredevil up?

I've seen that thread too. In 1 scan Cap says the Crossbones is stroner than him, because he is without his Super soldier serun

Phantom Zone

Originally posted by Etrigan
During the Kingpin/Red Skull fight (I believe it's in the Kingpin respect thread) Crossbones gave Cap plenty of trouble, at one part outsmarted him and managed to wrench his shield away from him.

Yeah Cap did not have SSS.

Originally posted by Etrigan

When the hell has Frank ever ****ed Daredevil up?

1.

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/4964/punddbeat1lu9.th.jpg
http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/9633/punddbeat2gl4.th.jpg
http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/6809/punddbeat3wu8.th.jpg

2.

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/6821/daredevilvspunisher6057ib1.th.jpg
http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/5804/daredevilvspunisher6069la3.th.jpg
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/8384/daredevilvspunisher6074jr2.th.jpg
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/7935/daredevilvspunisher6089cw0.th.jpg
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/2938/daredevilvspunisher6116mz5.th.jpg
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/3186/daredevilvspunisher6120kb9.th.jpg
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/8446/daredevilvspunisher6139oj7.th.jpg

Etrigan

My bad. But I still think Crossbones can hang with Cap in H2H when Cap has the SS serum.

Etrigan

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Yeah Cap did not have SSS.

1.

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/4964/punddbeat1lu9.th.jpg
http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/9633/punddbeat2gl4.th.jpg
http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/6809/punddbeat3wu8.th.jpg

2.

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/6821/daredevilvspunisher6057ib1.th.jpg
http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/5804/daredevilvspunisher6069la3.th.jpg
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/8384/daredevilvspunisher6074jr2.th.jpg
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/7935/daredevilvspunisher6089cw0.th.jpg
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/2938/daredevilvspunisher6116mz5.th.jpg
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/3186/daredevilvspunisher6120kb9.th.jpg
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/8446/daredevilvspunisher6139oj7.th.jpg

The first fight, was when they first met, I believe, and Punisher had his weaponry there, and so was able to get the drop on DD with the tranquilliser and shoot his club in half. All the other fights I've seen between them, DD has wiped the floor with Frank. Bear in mind that this is a H2H fight and so Frank doesn't have his weapons (he tends to get beaten far more when that's the case, in my opinion.)

The second fight, he confessed that Daredevil was smarter than him, respected his fighting skills, and I think it's safe to say he got ****ed up just as much as DD there, if not more. So Crossbones could **** him up H2H with no trouble.

Phantom Zone

Originally posted by Etrigan
The first fight, was when they first met, I believe, and Punisher had his weaponry there, and so was able to get the drop on DD with the tranquilliser and shoot his club in half. All the other fights I've seen between them, DD has wiped the floor with Frank. Bear in mind that this is a H2H fight and so Frank doesn't have his weapons (he tends to get beaten far more when that's the case, in my opinion.)

Thats true but he was still doing well and hell DD may not have had a gun but he did have his baton.

I can show you another fight were Frank fights DD and doesnt get humiliated

Originally posted by Etrigan

The second fight, he confessed that Daredevil was smarter than him, respected his fighting skills, and I think it's safe to say he got ****ed up just as much as DD there, if not more. So Crossbones could **** him up H2H with no trouble.

Bro he might have said that but in the acual fight DD got ****ed up so thats irrelevant.

Ha-Son

Crossbones wins.

Etrigan

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Thats true but he was still doing well and hell DD may not have had a gun but he did have his baton.

I can show you another fight were Frank fights DD and doesnt get humiliated

Please do. The one in Typhoid Mary on the rooftop? DD was the clear upper-hand there. And in the DD vs Punisher mini, where your second fight was from, DD humiliated Frank in another fight too.

Bentley

Ok, maybe I exaggerated, but Crossbones really kicked Bucky's ass in the last showing, he may not win 10/10 but he certainly is far superior to Frank. 8/10.

Sado22

damn straight, fanboy! mad

Sado22

"punisher fought him equally in their first meeting and second meeting. you are wrong and i am right. and since YOU posted those pics of frank getting pwned, i am automatically right even though you make sense and i could change my mind right about now.................but still you are wrong and i'm right. period. i don't care if i posted one pic of frank winning and you posted 10 with him being pwned by the same guy. i am right and you are wrong. in fact you are fanboy. that's right! you are a fanboy! stupid fanboy makes no damn sense! fanboy! fanboy!"

~Jinzin stick out tongue

BUSTER1

Istand by what i have already said - 5/5 between Punisher and Crossbones

jinzin

Originally posted by Sado22
"punisher fought him equally in their first meeting and second meeting. you are wrong and i am right. and since YOU posted those pics of frank getting pwned, i am automatically right even though you make sense and i could change my mind right about now.................but still you are wrong and i'm right. period. i don't care if i posted one pic of frank winning and you posted 10 with him being pwned by the same guy. i am right and you are wrong. in fact you are fanboy. that's right! you are a fanboy! stupid fanboy makes no damn sense! fanboy! fanboy!"

~Jinzin stick out tongue

Phantom Zone

Originally posted by Etrigan
Please do. The one in Typhoid Mary on the rooftop?

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/4376/ddvspunisher3bk1hs6.th.jpg
http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/3680/ddvspunisher21vm2qh7.th.jpg
http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/2049/ddvspunisher34zo3nu1.th.jpg
http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/5310/ddvspunisher46od4zf3.th.jpg

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/3360/ddvspunisher53yz5km0.th.jpg
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/5698/ddvspunisher64uq6yr8.th.jpg

Originally posted by Etrigan

DD was the clear upper-hand there.

Yes but you are missing the point. DD is better at H2H than Crossbones and Punisher was giving him a good fight he wasnt humilated, if he can give DD a good fight he can beat Crossbones.

This is not really a fight but its shows that DD was not able to completely defend himself against Punisher.

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/2084/shand07cardsonthetable0ri0.th.jpg

Originally posted by Etrigan

And in the DD vs Punisher mini, where your second fight was from, DD humiliated Frank in another fight too.

So what does that prove...DD humiliated him in one fight but Frank Castle dislocated his arm and bust his face in another one....so we just focus on one fight and negate the rest

Sado22

i've seen DD and frank fight several times and all i've seen is them fighting without going all out. Frank never tries to kill DD and DD never wants to hurt frank too badly cuz despite everything they are "friends" in ways.
the one time though that DD DID want to seriously beat the shit out of frank was in Punvolu4, confederary of dunces, and even then frank wasn't going all out and not trying to kill him. they fought to the finish that one time and Frank won, dislocated both his arms and would have shot him if he wanted to.

everyone knows that DD is the better H2H fighter. no one's denying it. the fact is though that there is more to fighting than skills. frank's a regular brawler and isn't above using the envirnoment or weapons or even dust against his opponent. that's his edge. that's what he relies on. and that's what he used to beat DD in the ONE TIME they fought to the finish.

~Sado

Etrigan

Originally posted by Sado22
i've seen DD and frank fight several times and all i've seen is them fighting without going all out. Frank never tries to kill DD and DD never wants to hurt frank too badly cuz despite everything they are "friends" in ways.
the one time though that DD DID want to seriously beat the shit out of frank was in Punvolu4, confederary of dunces, and even then frank wasn't going all out and not trying to kill him. they fought to the finish that one time and Frank won, dislocated both his arms and would have shot him if he wanted to.

everyone knows that DD is the better H2H fighter. no one's denying it. the fact is though that there is more to fighting than skills. frank's a regular brawler and isn't above using the envirnoment or weapons or even dust against his opponent. that's his edge. that's what he relies on. and that's what he used to beat DD in the ONE TIME they fought to the finish.

Good post, Sado. I still see DD as being better due to the fact that he wins the majority of fights they are in (or at least has the upper hand in the ones where they stalemate) and also I believe the one where Frank dislocated DD's arms was an Ennis story, which basically gives Frank "writer's advantage." In one of the fights that Phantom Zone posted before, the one from the DD vs Punisher story, they weren't holding back by any means, and although Punisher dealt out some heavy damage, DD put Frank's leg out of action and had him by the throat when the fight was stopped.

However, I would like to state in Frank's favour that he could easily shoot Daredevil if he wanted to: he has confessed before that he misses DD on purpose a lot of the time. This goes to show how much of a difference I think it makes between them if Frank has no weapons or prep.

Anyway, I suppose all this DD/Frank debate leads to whether Crossbones is a better fighter H2H than DD is. Maybe not, but I think Crossbones' strength makes him win the majority, he's tougher than Frank in brute force as well as being skilled.

Sado22

thanx. and you're right about DD having the upperhand. he even had the upperhand against frank in the ennis story all the way till the end. heck, despite all the shitthrown at ennis, he always has frank clearly state that he can't beat either DD, logan or spidey on his own. he said outright that they'd hand his @$$ to him. what more is there to say. he just outsmarted them. and he did it in believable ways that were NOT PIS or bad writing at all.

the thing worth mentioning though is that frank NEVER fought to kill DD. he's had DD at his mercy on three occassions that i remember off the top of my head. frank's the type who fights with hatred and killer instinct. it automatically dampens out when he's facing DD or the other boyscouts cuz he wont kill them. heck a few scans back in the issue where he fought Captain America...frank could have killed Cap if he wanted too.

~Sado

Etrigan

Frank doesn't kill innocents, according to Daredevil when he realised that Frank was missing him on purpose. However, although DD was innocent, I wouldn't go to say he's a boyscout. Batman wouldn't put him under the boyscout category along with Superman, I'm willing to bet.

BUSTER1

Originally posted by Sado22
thanx. and you're right about DD having the upperhand. he even had the upperhand against frank in the ennis story all the way till the end. heck, despite all the shitthrown at ennis, he always has frank clearly state that he can't beat either DD, logan or spidey on his own. he said outright that they'd hand his @$$ to him. what more is there to say. he just outsmarted them. and he did it in believable ways that were NOT PIS or bad writing at all.

the thing worth mentioning though is that frank NEVER fought to kill DD. he's had DD at his mercy on three occassions that i remember off the top of my head. frank's the type who fights with hatred and killer instinct. it automatically dampens out when he's facing DD or the other boyscouts cuz he wont kill them. heck a few scans back in the issue where he fought Captain America...frank could have killed Cap if he wanted too.

~Sado
Too true. Against Crossbones Frank would go all out with no qualms about killing him. Any physical advantage that Crossbones has over Frank, would be negligible, compared to the power gap between Captain America and Spiderman -but we all agree that Cap can give Spiderman a decent fight.
Punisher should not be underestimated h2h. He is very highly skilled in unarmed combat, is in excellent condition, and is very tough, able to ignore pain.

jinzin

Originally posted by BUSTER1
Too true. Against Crossbones Frank would go all out with no qualms about killing him. Any physical advantage that Crossbones has over Frank, would be negligible, compared to the power gap between Captain America and Spiderman -but we all agree that Cap can give Spiderman a decent fight.
Punisher should not be underestimated h2h. He is very highly skilled in unarmed combat, is in excellent condition, and is very tough, able to ignore pain.

But he's not gonna be able to ignore a broken neck. smile

Etrigan

Crossbones is strong enough to subdue Frank and then finish him off with a killer attack. Frank may have pain tolerance (indeed he does) and brawling skills (indeed he does) but without prep and without guns, Crossbones is just going to break him using superior techniques.

Phantom Zone

Originally posted by Etrigan
Crossbones is strong enough to subdue Frank and then finish him off with a killer attack. Frank may have pain tolerance (indeed he does) and brawling skills (indeed he does) but without prep and without guns, Crossbones is just going to break him using superior techniques.

Thats possible but you havent established how good he is. You have given exmaples of him doing well againt Cap in weakened states. erm

Bentley

And recently owning Bucky.

Phantom Zone

Originally posted by Bentley
And recently owning Bucky.

Yeah but didnt Bucky kick his ass at one point?

Bentley

Not hand to hand, he was owned and thrown by a window, then he pulled a gun.

Phantom Zone

Originally posted by Bentley
Not hand to hand, he was owned and thrown by a window, then he pulled a gun.

Well after Cap was shot WS and Falcon went after him but as far as I know WS beat the crap out of Crossbones not Falcon.

BUSTER1

Originally posted by jinzin
But he's not gonna be able to ignore a broken neck. smile

Like Frank just gonna stand there and let Crossbones get in position and break his neck

jinzin

Originally posted by BUSTER1
Like Frank just gonna stand there and let Crossbones get in position and break his neck Won't have much of a choice after Crossbones breaks his arms. smile

BUSTER1

Originally posted by jinzin
Won't have much of a choice after Crossbones breaks his arms. smile

Yeah right-Punisher will just stand there with his eyes closed waiting for it to be over. He won't fight back at all

jinzin

Originally posted by BUSTER1
Yeah right-Punisher will just stand there with his eyes closed waiting for it to be over. He won't fight back at all
laughing out loud

So testy.

Okay in all seriousness, We've seen Crossbones go toe to toe with Cap and hold his own, we've seen him do the same with Bullseye, and we've seen him do the same with Winter Soldier...

Punisher's good, but he's basically outmatched here, even if his fighting skills were on par with Bones, and I don't think that they are all things considered, he is still behind in brute strength, and speed isn't his strongsuit. Crossbones takes this.

Sado22

frank has a chance. at least we all agree on one thing. compared to that past few months that's saying a LOT stick out tongue

Etrigan

Yeah, Frank has a chance, Crossbones is just better in all areas of H2H.

Phantom Zone

Originally posted by Etrigan
Yeah, Frank has a chance, Crossbones is just better in all areas of H2H.

Yeah I would expect him to be better than Frank but really what evidence do we have that he beats Frank 8/10? Him fighting a weakened Cap, he did fight Cap with full SSS but apprently he used prep.

What else hes wrecked Winter Soldier? I tell you what BW gave Winter Soldier a good fight but this is what he did to BW and she had the drop on him.

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/742/widow11pqpz0.th.jpg
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/5435/widow28jrdb8.th.jpg
http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/1051/widow37wdln7.th.jpg
http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/7849/widow40dgex6.th.jpg
http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/9594/widow50uqbv2.th.jpg

Im pretty sure though Winter Soldier beat the crap out of Crossbones but I dont know exactly what happened.

Etrigan

But did Punisher beat WS in pure H2H? I think you're forgetting this fight is purely H2H, no prep or weaponry. Another factor that gives Crossbones the edge; Frank is at his best with both of those things.

Phantom Zone

Originally posted by Etrigan
But did Punisher beat WS in pure H2H? I think you're forgetting this fight is purely H2H, no prep or weaponry. Another factor that gives Crossbones the edge; Frank is at his best with both of those things.

Er bro that wasnt my point Frank didnt beat WS purely H2H...but he did kick the crap out of Black Widow, when WS was fighting BW she was actually a challenge. Also I think WS has beaten Crossbones before. Maybe in aother fight Frank could do better against WS.

Its a bit ABC logic but...meh.

Etrigan

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Er bro that wasnt my point Frank didnt beat WS purely H2H...

Precisely. My point is that Frank hasn't got prep or weapons. With those, he could beat Crossbones. An hour of prep would probably do. But, Frank is NOT used to beating villains on Crossbones' level with nothing but his H2H skills. Not to mention the fact that Crossbones completely outweighs him in all other factors, especially strength. FRank just isn't good enough without his weapons to take on a master H2H combatant and win (which relates to my points on him and DD.) He may be able to hang with Crossbones for a while, which gives him a chance, but he can't win the majority against someone who can go toe-to-toe with Cap if he has trouble with Daredevil even bloodlusted (see Means and Ends.)

BUSTER1

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Er bro that wasnt my point Frank didnt beat WS purely H2H...but he did kick the crap out of Black Widow, when WS was fighting BW she was actually a challenge. Also I think WS has beaten Crossbones before. Maybe in aother fight Frank could do better against WS.

Its a bit ABC logic but...meh.

I agree wth you Phantom. All these characters, are humans (as opposed to superhumans) who are highly skilled in unarmed combat and are peak human in attributes. They are all so close ability wise that no h2h fight will be a sure thing. So Ireckon that Punisher always has a good chance against Crossbones.

Etrigan

Punisher is nowhere as near peak human as Crossbones is, or Black Widow. The pure truth is that Punisher operates best with weapons, I think that's safe to say. The only times he's beaten DD has been with weapons (I'm using DD as my example most of the time.) And Crossbones is stronger than DD, and more of a killer. Better at H2H? Debatable. But it's safe to say both of them are better than Frank in H2H; Crossbones is stronger as well.

BUSTER1

Originally posted by Etrigan
Punisher is nowhere as near peak human as Crossbones is, or Black Widow. The pure truth is that Punisher operates best with weapons, I think that's safe to say. The only times he's beaten DD has been with weapons (I'm using DD as my example most of the time.) And Crossbones is stronger than DD, and more of a killer. Better at H2H? Debatable. But it's safe to say both of them are better than Frank in H2H; Crossbones is stronger as well.

I'm not saying that Crossbones won't win -out of 10 fights he probably would win more. But it wouldn't be a 5 second curb stomp. Punisher's h2h skills shouldn't be underestimated. True he is exceptional with weapons, but that shouldn't detract from his excellent unarmed fighting skills.

Etrigan

I don't think it would be a 5 second curbstomp at all, Punisher would put up a good fight, and yes he is a good unarmed fighter. Probably nearly equal to Crossbones, but Crossbones is very strong and very fast, close to peak human. That, added to Crossbones' H2H skills, would be too much for Punisher to handle in the majority.

BUSTER1

I know Crossbones outdoes Frank in Strength, but does anyone know how much either can lift. I csn't find anything that states this info

Etrigan

Neither can I, to be honest, but I'd imagine it's just below Cap's lifting strength, which is a max of 800 pounds if he uses all his effort.

Can't find Punisher's lifting strength, but on several occasions I've seen him lift a beefy man above his head with no much effort. So even so, he's pretty strong. The Marvel Directory tells us "The Punisher possesses the normal human strength of a man of his age, height, and build who engages in intensive regular exercise."

Phantom Zone

Originally posted by Etrigan
which gives him a chance, but he can't win the majority against someone who can go toe-to-toe with Cap if he has trouble with Daredevil even bloodlusted (see Means and Ends.)

But bro you havnet got any proof that he can go to-toe-toe with Cap at full capacity. erm

Etrigan

I haven't got scans, but I have definitely read fights between them where he's stalemated Cap. Wiki says he can go toe-to-toe with an SS Cap. He's stalemated Diamondback as well, I think.

Phantom Zone

Originally posted by Etrigan
I haven't got scans, but I have definitely read fights between them where he's stalemated Cap.

Ok but the two examples you gave where one without SSS and one while he was hallucinating.

Originally posted by Etrigan

Wiki says he can go toe-to-toe with an SS Cap. He's stalemated Diamondback as well, I think.

Bro i read wiki and I think it says he has goen toe-to-toe with Cap but it does not say SSS, so obvoulsy that includes the examples where he hasnt had SSS. Like I said I know he has fought Cap with SSS but apprently he had prep.

Diamondback aint top tier.

Etrigan

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Bro i read wiki and I think it says he has goen toe-to-toe with Cap but it does not say SSS, so obvoulsy that includes the examples where he hasnt had SSS. Like I said I know he has fought Cap with SSS but apprently he had prep.

Yeah, maybe you are right. But I still don't see why that means Punisher can easily beat Crossbones. What are your actual grounds for Frank being better than him in H2H? Or even being able to beat him in H2H for the majority?

Phantom Zone

Originally posted by Etrigan
Yeah, maybe you are right. But I still don't see why that means Punisher can easily beat Crossbones. What are your actual grounds for Frank being better than him in H2H? Or even being able to beat him in H2H for the majority?

Nah I dont think he can easily beat Cross. I just think maybe 8/10 is too much with the lack of evidence, maybe 6/10.

Etrigan

Other than Frank vs Daredevil, what evidence do you have that Frank is a very good H2H combatant?

Phantom Zone

Originally posted by Etrigan
Other than Frank vs Daredevil, what evidence do you have that Frank is a very good H2H combatant?

Bro I did post the scans of him fighting Black Widow and basically humiliating her. erm

Also his fight with Moon Knight

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/2815/msmoonknight021p106mz1ya6.th.jpg
http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/8796/msmoonknight021p110zj2zl9.th.jpg

Mk was pissed off as well.

Etrigan

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Bro I did post the scans of him fighting Black Widow and basically humiliating her. erm

...Bullseye's beaten Black Widow, and I would say he humiliated her as well. Isn't it general opinion that Frank is a better H2H than Bullseye? *sigh*

I would say that the only person I can really think of who is similar level of H2H as Crossbones who Frank has stalemated or beaten (I can't remember how their fight came out in the end) is Silver Sable.

Etrigan

Also I think Punisher fought some dude once called Pittsy in Ennis's series. Whether that was hand-to-hand or not I can't remember, but it's probably good proof of Punisher's fighting prowess as it is. And it isn't biased because he isn't fighting a superhero. Do you have scans of that?

Phantom Zone

Originally posted by Etrigan
Also I think Punisher fought some dude once called Pittsy in Ennis's series. Whether that was hand-to-hand or not I can't remember, but it's probably good proof of Punisher's fighting prowess as it is. And it isn't biased because he isn't fighting a superhero. Do you have scans of that?

Nope I dont think its canon because its Punisher Max. I think it was in an alternate universe.

Etrigan

Is Max an alternate universe? Non-canon? Really? I thought it was just the same, but Punisher ages and there's more violence and stuff.

Phantom Zone

Originally posted by Etrigan
Is Max an alternate universe? Non-canon? Really? I thought it was just the same, but Punisher ages and there's more violence and stuff.

Im pretty sure that its non-canon but....some people think otherwise, but I have not seen any evidence to say its canon.

BUSTER1

I've seen the scans where Bullseye wipes the floor with BW. I've also seen scans of Frank, in h2h stalemating, at least, Bullseye
That being said, I don't think Bulseye is as good as Crossbones.
Frank is very tough and thats why he has given DD a run for his money, despite DD being better at h2h. Its debatable whether Crossbones is as good, skillwise, as DD, or as fast.
I must admit my opinion has shifted slightly -I reckon Punisher v Crossbones h2h would be 6/4 in Crossbones favour.

Etrigan

I don't think Crossbones is as fast as DD or as acrobatic or skilled. Maybe about his equal in H2H skill and knowledge. In my opinion (this is completely H2H, no weapons involved, not counting strength or acrobatic ability)

Black Widow < Bullseye << Punisher < Daredevil = Crossbones

jinzin

Originally posted by Etrigan
Neither can I, to be honest, but I'd imagine it's just below Cap's lifting strength, which is a max of 800 pounds if he uses all his effort.

Can't find Punisher's lifting strength, but on several occasions I've seen him lift a beefy man above his head with no much effort. So even so, he's pretty strong. The Marvel Directory tells us "The Punisher possesses the normal human strength of a man of his age, height, and build who engages in intensive regular exercise."

Cap actually casually neches over 1000's pounds, and can infact press the same weight over his head.

jinzin

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Bro I did post the scans of him fighting Black Widow and basically humiliating her. erm

No one won that fight or WAS winning, all Punisher successfully did was shoot her widow's bite, which is nowhere close to an impressive h2h feat.

And stop misrepresenting that, saying that BW got the drop on him when he shot at her first.

no expression

Etrigan

Well in that case the source I got that info from is retarded.

What has he benched that's over 1000 pounds? Casually?

jinzin

Originally posted by Etrigan
Well in that case the source I got that info from is retarded.

What has he benched that's over 1000 pounds? Casually?
A bench bar? confused

He was having a full blown conversation, I'll try to locate the scan for ya.

Soljer

Originally posted by Etrigan
Well in that case the source I got that info from is retarded.

What has he benched that's over 1000 pounds? Casually?

Cap was on a bench, with a bar, with weights that read '1100,' meaning that he was either benching 1100 pounds or 2200 (the former being much more reasonable).

But the impressive thing is that he wasn't straining in the least. He was having a casual conversation with a work out partner at the same time, and immediately afterwards went to go do a bunch of acrobatics.

jinzin

Originally posted by Soljer
Cap was on a bench, with a bar, with weights that read '1100,' meaning that he was either benching 1100 pounds or 2200 (the former being much more reasonable).

But the impressive thing is that he wasn't straining in the least. He was having a casual conversation with a work out partner at the same time, and immediately afterwards went to go do a bunch of acrobatics.

Yup, it was during that ludicrus Cap-Wolf arc... Can't remember which issue...

Here's cap curling 500 Lbs (thanks to Soljer for the scan) http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/1125/curl500tu1.jpg

I can't find the benching feat, the thread it was in isn't opening for me, and it's not reposted in the respect thread on KMC, after I get home I'll post it up for ya.

redhotrash

Crossbones has been trained by Taskmaster and others, which I think says something about his h2h. Hes basically on the bottom end of the next tier up from Punisher h2h wise, if that makes any sense. Crossbones should be able to take this 8/10 at least. Give them both knives and it starts to look better for Punisher.

Phantom Zone

Originally posted by jinzin
What the f**k?

How many times did Punisher get hit....how many times did BW get hit and what happened to her weapon?

jinzin

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
How many times did Punisher get hit....how many times did BW get hit and what happened to her weapon?

Punisher got one hit off on her, that's not winning.
Disabling one of her widow's bite wrist bracelets is not winning.
And as Etrigan already made clear this fight isn't about weapons, it's h2h.

Phantom Zone

Originally posted by jinzin
Punisher got one hit off on her, that's not winning.
Disabling one of her widow's bite wrist bracelets is not winning.

No she got hit at least twice read the scans again and she got disarmed. Next time when two people get into a fight if one person doesnt get hit and the other one gets hit twice and gets disarmed im going to think its a stalemate. thumb up

Originally posted by jinzin

And as Etrigan already made clear this fight isn't about weapons, it's h2h.

He was refering to the fight that Frank had with WS not BW were Pun pulled out a gun. Thats not H2H at all.

jinzin

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
No she got hit at least twice read the scans again and she got disarmed. Next time when two people get into a fight if one person doesnt get hit and the other one gets hit twice and gets disarmed im going to think its a stalemate. thumb up

She still had another bracelet she wasn't dissarmed.
Punisher hit her once.

No one won that fight.

no expression

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
He was refering to the fight that Frank had with WS not BW were Pun pulled out a gun. Thats not H2H at all.
Umm no we're referring to this fight HERE in THIS THREAD! Are you really that dense? You can't be! It's impossible! You're toying with me right? lol.

jinzin

Originally posted by redhotrash
Crossbones has been trained by Taskmaster and others, which I think says something about his h2h. Hes basically on the bottom end of the next tier up from Punisher h2h wise, if that makes any sense. Crossbones should be able to take this 8/10 at least. Give them both knives and it starts to look better for Punisher.

yeah Crossbones has punked out DD, and Bullseye, stalemated Cap when he had the SSS, and thrashed Winter Soldier.
What he's done in h2h combat speaks volumes above what Punisher has done IMO.

Phantom Zone

Originally posted by jinzin
She still had another bracelet she wasn't dissarmed.
Punisher hit her once.

Learn to read scans until then dont bother wasting my time.

Originally posted by jinzin

No one won that fight.

no expression

I didnt say he did. Pay attention....I said he was winning....

ARGHHHHH!!!!!! banghead

Sado22

i say band every punisher thread! mad

Etrigan

Originally posted by jinzin
yeah Crossbones has punked out DD, and Bullseye, stalemated Cap when he had the SSS, and thrashed Winter Soldier.
What he's done in h2h combat speaks volumes above what Punisher has done IMO.

Exactly my point. I can't find any real good H2H showings for Punisher; weapons are his specialty, and this is PURELY H2H.

Phantom Zone

Originally posted by Etrigan
Exactly my point. I can't find any real good H2H showings for Punisher; weapons are his specialty, and this is PURELY H2H.

When you mean weapons what are you talking about....guns?

Etrigan

Guns, explosives, even knives.

jinzin

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Learn to read scans until then dont bother wasting my time.

I didnt say he did. Pay attention....I said he was winning....

ARGHHHHH!!!!!! banghead

Sorry I don't see the same delusional bias Punisher fanboy nonsense that you do, I see Punisher tagging Widow once and disarming ONE bracelet.... Not both, and not winning.

I also don't see BW getting the "drop" on Punisher, I see Punisher shooting first.

Etrigan

Yeah, I sort of did have doubt about Phantom Zone's opinion on that fight, firstly because Frank didn't really beat her, let alone humiliate her, and also he shot at her first, so didn't he technically get the drop on her?

jinzin

Exactly. yes

Phantom Zone

Originally posted by Etrigan
Guns, explosives, even knives.

Bro Wolverine fights with his claws 90 perecent of the time that doesnt mean when he uses his claws he doesnt show good H2H skill because even if you are using weapons the skills that you need in H2H are still similar. So when Cap uses his shield in a fight we discredit it because he used his shield. Ive posted numerous fights with him using his barehands juist because there are weapons in it does not go against it.

Hell we have a MA ranking thread lots of the fights there are not completely unarmed.

Originally posted by Etrigan
Yeah, I sort of did have doubt about Phantom Zone's opinion on that fight, firstly because Frank didn't really beat her,

Well heres the thing, help me out here. Were did I say he beat her? Do you need to beat an opponent to show you are superior to them or even if the fight doesnt end if you are winning doesnt that indicate you are better? My point he was winning eventhough he got her by suprise.

Originally posted by Etrigan

let alone humiliate her, and also he shot at her first, so didn't he technically get the drop on her?

Yes he did, but think about what you just said. What your telling me is that because Frank got the drop on her, that means BW didnt get Punsiher by suprise and try to kick the gun out of his hand?

The point is she suprised him afterwards...she tried to kick the gun out of his hand, got hit over the head at least twice, got one of her widow bites exploding in her face and Punisher didnt even get hit once. no expression

Etrigan

Your first point makes no sense, either because of the way it's written or because there's not really any way to challenge the fact that a character can be more experienced with weaponry than without it, which was what I said applies to Punisher. I have yet to see him beat a character as strong as Crossbones in H2H. Without prep.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Er bro that wasnt my point Frank didnt beat WS purely H2H...but he did kick the crap out of Black Widow

"Kicking the crap out of" generally means "beating."

Yes he did, but think about what you just said. What your telling me is that because Frank got the drop on her, that means BW didnt get Punsiher by suprise and try to kick the gun out of his hand?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone Yes he did, but think about what you just said. What your telling me is that because Frank got the drop on her, that means BW didnt get Punsiher by suprise and try to kick the gun out of his hand? The point is she suprised him afterwards...she tried to kick the gun out of his hand, got hit over the head at least twice, got one of her widow bites exploding in her face and Punisher didnt even get hit once.

This doesn't matter. It's not a H2H fight. Whether he could disarm her or not, he HAD WEAPONRY and he was PREPARED, obviously as he shot at her first. Without that, he could not do as well against someone like Crossbones, who is stronger and faster than Black Widow, probably as well as being a better H2H opponent!

Phantom Zone

Originally posted by Etrigan
Your first point makes no sense, either because of the way it's written or because there's not really any way to challenge the fact that a character can be more experienced with weaponry than without it, which was what I said applies to Punisher. I have yet to see him beat a character as strong as Crossbones in H2H. Without prep.

Again the skills used in fights with weapons are similar to the skills needed in unarmed combat are they not? When Wolverine uses his claws in fight that means he doesnt show H2H skills?

Like I said we have an MA ranking thread and lots of the scans used as evidence have weapons in them so when a person uses weapons in an unarmed fight we descredit because weapoins are used? We dont because even in the fight with BW, Frank Castle still had to be fast enough to react to BW, his speed and reflexes are not superhuman he got it from his MA training and therefore the fight with BW shows how fast his reflexes are eventhough he got suprised.

Originally posted by Etrigan

"Kicking the crap out of" generally means "beating."

and he wasnt winning? How many times did Punisher get hit in that fight?

Originally posted by Etrigan

This doesn't matter. It's not a H2H fight. Whether he could disarm her or not, he HAD WEAPONRY and he was PREPARED, obviously as he shot at her first.

Again so what your sayins is because he suprised her, that means she didnt suprise him and get smacked in the face twice and get one of her weapons destroyed? Thats basically what you're saying. Also as stated before eventhough it was not purely H2H it showed Franks reflexes because evenhough he was suprised he was still fast enoguh to react to BW.

Originally posted by Etrigan

Without that, he could not do as well against someone like Crossbones, who is stronger and faster than Black Widow, probably as well as being a better H2H opponent!

Well the thing is Crossbones is in teh same tier as BW, but I dont see how him having a rifle gave him that much of an advantage against BW.

Etrigan

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Again the skills used in fights with weapons are similar to the skills needed in unarmed combat are they not? When Wolverine uses his claws in fight that means he doesnt show H2H skills?

Ah, I see what you mean. But Wolverine using his claws and Cap using his shield are close-ranged weapons (except when Cap throws the shield, but that's beside the point). Punisher having a gun doesn't require H2H skills.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Well the thing is Crossbones is in teh same tier as BW, but I dont see how him having a rifle gave him that much of an advantage against BW.

Well as you would say, it meant that he got the drop on her, right? Surprised her with a shot.

Phantom Zone

Originally posted by Etrigan
Ah, I see what you mean.

Thank you.

Originally posted by Etrigan

But Wolverine using his claws and Cap using his shield are close-ranged weapons (except when Cap throws the shield, but that's beside the point). Punisher having a gun doesn't require H2H skills.

Bro he smacked her over the head with it at least twice....that the samething as Wolverine using his claws or Cap using his sheild, exacept that Frank just improvised.

Originally posted by Etrigan

Well as you would say, it meant that he got the drop on her, right? Surprised her with a shot.

Bro im aware the he suprised her with a shot....but what happened afterwards. The fcat that he suprised her with a shot does not negate the fact that BW suprised him and ended up eating the butt of his rifle....at least twice. Did Frank Castle bring the rifle to shot somebody or beat them over the head with? He was prepared to shot somebody but not to beat them over the head with the rifle he improvised on the fly. Afterwards the rifle was used in H2H and it did not give him a huge advantage.

Now I understand that this fight is purelly H2H but as mentioned before the skills needed to wack somebody over the head with a rifle are similar to unarmed combat and Frank isnt even trained in the art of hitting with a gun.

Etrigan

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Now I understand that this fight is purelly H2H but as mentioned before the skills needed to wack somebody over the head with a rifle are similar to unarmed combat and Frank isnt even trained in the art of hitting with a gun.

Exactly, there are no skills to striking somebody over the head with the butt of a rifle. I'm guessing there is probably some technique involved in army training or such things, but generally it does not require any particular skill. However, if Frank is to be fighting Crossbones without a rifle, or any form of club or staff, or anything for that matter (that is what H2H is, no weaponry) then he will require some degree of skill, due to Crossbones being bigger, stronger, faster than him, and on a higher level of H2H. So why is whether Frank has rifle-butt training or not at all relevant?

Phantom Zone

Originally posted by Etrigan
Exactly, there are no skills to striking somebody over the head with the butt of a rifle. I'm guessing there is probably some technique involved in army training or such things, but generally it does not require any particular skill. However, if Frank is to be fighting Crossbones without a rifle, or any form of club or staff, or anything for that matter (that is what H2H is, no weaponry) then he will require some degree of skill, due to Crossbones being bigger, stronger, faster than him, and on a higher level of H2H. So why is whether Frank has rifle-butt training or not at all relevant?

Because if he can smack somebody over the head with a but of the rifle which takes no skill, its going to be easier for him to use that which he has more skill in ie his barehands.

Using the rifle wasnt really an advantage it was in his hands at the time so he thought "what the hell", also remember it shows his reflexes she attempted to kick it out of his hand but he turned the table on her. If he can do well against a skilled opponent that suprised him, hes going to do even better when he knows they are there.

Etrigan

He doesn't have anything to go "what the hell" with here. It will be easier to use something that he has more skill with, his bare hands, but Crossbones has more skill with his bare hands than Punisher.

Phantom Zone

Originally posted by Etrigan
He doesn't have anything to go "what the hell" with here.

Yeah it does, why would you drop the gun and use your barehands when its going to take more time? The time it takes to drop the gun he could have been taken out.

Originally posted by Etrigan

It will be easier to use something that he has more skill with, his bare hands, but Crossbones has more skill with his bare hands than Punisher.

Most likely. The point of the scans with Pun and BW were not to say that Punisher wins the majority you just wanted other examples of him doing well against skilled opponents. Yes it was not purelly H2H but the skills used in that fight could aplly to unarmed combat.