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I have a question for all people who do not believe any religion at all or even the possibility of God.

It seems through the media and message boards like this that atheists are much more likely to insult religious people and stereotype them as stupid and ignorant. Of course, the few atheists I have known have never acted that way, so please understand I am not grouping you together.

But my question is: does it bother you in some way when someone says they are of faith? It just seems like some atheists like to "do us a favor" by telling us how stupid we all are. I suppose that's the equivalent of a missionary going out and trying to convert, but it seems more aggressive. What is your take on people of faith? Do any faiths bother you more than others? What are your takes on Wicca and beliefs that don't really acknowledge a God per se? Just curious on what makes you tick.

Originally posted by willofthewisp
I have a question for all people who do not believe any religion at all or even the possibility of God.

It seems through the media and message boards like this that atheists are much more likely to insult religious people and stereotype them as stupid and ignorant. Of course, the few atheists I have known have never acted that way, so please understand I am not grouping you together.

But my question is: does it bother you in some way when someone says they are of faith? It just seems like some atheists like to "do us a favor" by telling us how stupid we all are. I suppose that's the equivalent of a missionary going out and trying to convert, but it seems more aggressive. What is your take on people of faith? Do any faiths bother you more than others? What are your takes on Wicca and beliefs that don't really acknowledge a God per se? Just curious on what makes you tick. i agree with you, i am an atheist and i definitely consider those who believe in religion foolish. it does bother me ecause to me the only lgical position is atheism.

i havent seen the works of "god" in motion and the world really isnt fair which a just god(if there was one mind you) wouldnt allow. i love talking about religion and am an adamant atheist. Mormons bother me the most for 1 reason. they try and convert me my shotgun loves converting mormons. but the religion that bothers me just for being so public and anuisance is christianity.

but what really gets me is people who have blind faith. that is something i cant stand. like for instance latin americans and blacks. no offense but i seriously doubt they comprehend exactly what that religion entails. it seriously pisses me off when someone follows something they were brought up into blindly. i wasnt raised atheist i logically came to that conclusion. my family is jewish, but that seems even less logical than christianity.

as long as religions dont try and convert people i usually dont get too mad

Originally posted by willofthewisp
I have a question for all people who do not believe any religion at all or even the possibility of God.

It seems through the media and message boards like this that atheists are much more likely to insult religious people and stereotype them as stupid and ignorant. Of course, the few atheists I have known have never acted that way, so please understand I am not grouping you together.

But my question is: does it bother you in some way when someone says they are of faith? It just seems like some atheists like to "do us a favor" by telling us how stupid we all are. I suppose that's the equivalent of a missionary going out and trying to convert, but it seems more aggressive. What is your take on people of faith? Do any faiths bother you more than others? What are your takes on Wicca and beliefs that don't really acknowledge a God per se? Just curious on what makes you tick.

There's other atheists on this board, and none of us (not even all of us) counts as a representative sample of atheist thinking, so take it for what it is: one person's take.

Statements like this: It just seems like some atheists like to "do us a favor" by telling us how stupid we all are. tell me that you're as apt to fall into believing the stereotype as most, despite the 2nd paragraph. So whether or not you'll admit it, I'm assuming that I'm talking to a slightly jaded reception. I could counter with something like, Christians love telling us how we're doomed to hell, or lost from Christ's love, and it would be true for some cases but not he majority. A similarly erroneous stereotype (please understand, I don't agree with the last italizcized statement) but it shows how the thinking can be turned on its head.

I'm of the mind that variety of beliefs have little to do with intelligence, and more to do with exposure to information. The more you look into any religious belief, the more you realize that there's strong support for either side of any argument. Religion is no exception. But my point is not "the more you learn, the less you know." Far from it. Most times, I feel like one side can objectively be found to trump the others. But my point is that there's so much saturation of information on complex religious issues, that any one person is likely to have been "indoctrinated" into one side or the other. Thus, intelligent people intelligently defend all the various religions. Certainly they can't all be right, and I feel like some are very, very wrong...but it's an indictment of the beliefs themselves, not the people who believe them.

Otherwise, I and most atheists are as likely to share our beliefs as anyone else. The fact that we live in a predominantly Christian country, and an overwhelmingly theistic country, means that atheism gets thrown into sharp contrast to it, and thus probably gets more public attention than similar minority religious groups. Since the cultural zeitgeist is so far from atheism, people have a hard time understanding it, and so you get everything from curiosity and mild concern, to outright hostility and damaging stereotypes. It becomes a perpetual cycle as the animosity, misrepresentation, and misunderstanding leads to the so-called "angry atheists" that are paraded around as indicative of the movement, which thus leads to more misunderstanding, which...on and on.

As with many minority causes. Far from painting atheists as martyrs, it's just the cultural norm of not having mainstream acceptance, and that tension manifesting as negativity on both sides. One could say the same of different races and creeds, ethnicities, religious groups like the Wicca you mentioned, feminists, etc. The sterotypes exist....they are based in part upon fact. But they are in the minority of the minority, so to speak....as it is with most causes, where most people tend toward the "middle" while some exist at the extremes of the particular cause.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
There's other atheists on this board, and none of us (not even all of us) counts as a representative sample of atheist thinking, so take it for what it is: one person's take.

Statements like this: It just seems like some atheists like to "do us a favor" by telling us how stupid we all are. tell me that you're as apt to fall into believing the stereotype as most, despite the 2nd paragraph. So whether or not you'll admit it, I'm assuming that I'm talking to a slightly jaded reception.

I'm of the mind that variety of beliefs have little to do with intelligence, and more to do with exposure to information. The more you look into any religious belief, the more you realize that there's strong support for either side of any argument. Religion is no exception. But my point is not "the more you learn, the less you know." Far from it. Most times, I feel like one side can objectively be found to trump the others. But my point is that there's so much saturation of information on complex religious issues, that any one person is likely to have been "indoctrinated" into one side or the other. Thus, intelligent people intelligently defend all the various religions. Certainly they can't all be right, and I feel like some are very, very wrong...but it's an indictment of the beliefs themselves, not the people who believe them.

Otherwise, I and most atheists are as likely to share our beliefs as anyone else. The fact that we live in a predominantly Christian country, and an overwhelmingly theistic country, means that atheism gets thrown into sharp contrast to it, and thus probably gets more public attention than similar minority religious groups. Since the cultural zeitgeist is so far from atheism, people have a hard time understanding it, and so you get everything from curiosity and mild concern, to outright hostility and damaging stereotypes. It becomes a perpetual cycle as the animosity, misrepresentation, and misunderstanding leads to the so-called "angry atheists" that are paraded around as indicative of the movement, which thus leads to more misunderstanding, which...on and on.

As with many minority causes. Far from painting atheists as martyrs, it's just the cultural norm of not having mainstream acceptance, and that tension manifesting as negativity on both sides. One could say the same of different races and creeds, ethnicities, religious groups like the Wicca you mentioned, feminists, etc. The sterotypes exist. But they are in the minority of the minority, so to speak....as it is with most causes, where most people tend toward the "middle" while some exist at the extremes of the particular cause. good post cept you forgot one thing. im probably one of the people they base those stereotypes off of

Well, digi, you are at least speaking to a biased person. Obviously if I were an atheist, I probably wouldn't ask the question in the first place, but I wouldn't say that I'm jaded. I just don't like being called stupid by some people. I did say "some" atheists. Most, I feel, live and let live as long as they do not feel pressure on someone to change what they believe. What I cannot understand is the ones who don't, who feel the need to try to disprove every little bit. It doesn't seem to be good enough for those people that one person believes one way and someone else believes something else. It seems like some (not all) can be respectful.

Wow, chickenlover...latin americans and blacks don't understand what their religion means, huh? You have more in common with Joseph Smith's Mormon ideas than you think.

Originally posted by willofthewisp
Well, digi, you are at least speaking to a biased person. Obviously if I were an atheist, I probably wouldn't ask the question in the first place, but I wouldn't say that I'm jaded. I just don't like being called stupid by some people. I did say "some" atheists. Most, I feel, live and let live as long as they do not feel pressure on someone to change what they believe. What I cannot understand is the ones who don't, who feel the need to try to disprove every little bit. It doesn't seem to be good enough for those people that one person believes one way and someone else believes something else. It seems like some (not all) can be respectful.

Wow, chickenlover...latin americans and blacks don't understand what their religion means, huh? You have more in common with Joseph Smith's Mormon ideas than you think. sorry if that sounded racist. howver i live in la and the mojarity of them are uneducated, which is unfortunate. but yes i have met and seen a ton of non educated people with religion not only latin amercicans and blacks. however there is an outstanding majority of them here in los angeles

sorry i didnt read my ideas out of a hat

Originally posted by willofthewisp
Well, digi, you are at least speaking to a biased person. Obviously if I were an atheist, I probably wouldn't ask the question in the first place, but I wouldn't say that I'm jaded. I just don't like being called stupid by some people. I did say "some" atheists. Most, I feel, live and let live as long as they do not feel pressure on someone to change what they believe. What I cannot understand is the ones who don't, who feel the need to try to disprove every little bit. It doesn't seem to be good enough for those people that one person believes one way and someone else believes something else. It seems like some (not all) can be respectful.

Wow, chickenlover...latin americans and blacks don't understand what their religion means, huh? You have more in common with Joseph Smith's Mormon ideas than you think.

I sometimes come across as more combative, and don't personally subscribe to the "live and let live" philosophy, but there's a reason for it. I have a hard time attacking people, who are generally good, and have genuinely altruistic reasons for believing what they do. But I see a lot of hatred, negativity, and economic loss as a result of false beliefs...which I would extend not just to many religious beliefs but also paranormal and pseudo-scientific beliefs. So the distinction must be made, for me, between attacking the belief rather than the believer....sometimes it's harder to do than others.

But underlying it is a desire to improve the lives of others by informing them of alternative ideas, and certainly not just to call them stupid (which they usually aren't) or to claim superiority.

And for those who gain great strength through their religion, or use it toward benevolent ends, those people I gladly "let live." My family is Catholic and we don't have problems, so it's not terribly hard to put to practice.

But it's when I see the negative side of faith-based belief rear its head that I am just as angry as the stereotype atheists, because I consider it tragic to see people without access to the right information throwing away their money to quack paranormalists, or lives destroyed because of religious persecution (homosexuals, non-Christians, Islam/Judaism, etc.), or putting untold amounts of faith in a God that will not reap the benefits of a more rational approach to life's problems.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
I sometimes come across as more combative, and don't personally subscribe to the "live and let live" philosophy, but there's a reason for it. I have a hard time attacking people, who are generally good, and have genuinely altruistic reasons for believing what they do. But I see a lot of hatred, negativity, and economic loss as a result of false beliefs...which I would extend not just to many religious beliefs but also paranormal and pseudo-scientific beliefs. So the distinction must be made, for me, between attacking the belief rather than the believer....sometimes it's harder to do than others.

But underlying it is a desire to improve the lives of others by informing them of alternative ideas, and certainly not just to call them stupid (which they usually aren't) or to claim superiority.

And for those who gain great strength through their religion, or use it toward benevolent ends, those people I gladly "let live." My family is Catholic and we don't have problems, so it's not terribly hard to put to practice.

But it's when I see the negative side of faith-based belief rear its head that I am just as angry as the stereotype atheists, because I consider it tragic to see people without access to the right information throwing away their money to quack paranormalists, or lives destroyed because of religious persecution (homosexuals, non-Christians, Islam/Judaism, etc.), or putting untold amounts of faith in a God that will not reap the benefits of a more rational approach to life's problems.

Originally posted by chickenlover98
i agree with you, i am an atheist and i definitely consider those who believe in religion foolish. it does bother me ecause to me the only lgical position is atheism.

I feel that the most logical would have to be agnosticism. It is less of a gamble than either full fledged theism or full fledged atheism and it seems to be able to withstand scientific criticism much better than either side.

Honestly, I prayed my little heart out for God to prove he exists. I asked him for signs...angels...anything. To this day, I have gotten basically nothing. If I could get anything other than "hearing" and answer to my prayer, I would dedicate my life to "spreading" the gospel like the vicious Mormons you describe. I was just a child and I genuinely, and with as pure of a heart as can be expected, asked for God to help me believe. I didn't get anything. God says I can just ask him and he will give liberally and upbraid not...so where is my knowledge? This is why I claim to have atheistic sympathies.

Logically, I would say agnosticism is the best choice.



I feel that atheists have to be more viscious because of theistic America. However, argue religion with a Baptists and an Atheist would appear to be rather timid.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I feel that the most logical would have to be agnosticism. It is less of a gamble than either full fledged theism or full fledged atheism and it seems to be able to withstand scientific criticism much better than either side.

Honestly, I prayed my little heart out for God to prove he exists. I asked him for signs...angels...anything. To this day, I have gotten basically nothing. If I could get anything other than "hearing" and answer to my prayer, I would dedicate my life to "spreading" the gospel like the vicious Mormons you describe. I was just a child and I genuinely, and with as pure of a heart as can be expected, asked for God to help me believe. I didn't get anything. God says I can just ask him and he will give liberally and upbraid not...so where is my knowledge? This is why I claim to have atheistic sympathies.

Logically, I would say agnosticism is the best choice.



I feel that atheists have to be more viscious because of theistic America. However, argue religion with a Baptists and an Atheist would appear to be rather timid. good post with good ideas, but my feeling is that if the christian religion is correct your still ****ed. might as well be a full blown atheist

Originally posted by willofthewisp
I have a question for all people who do not believe any religion at all or even the possibility of God.

It seems through the media and message boards like this that atheists are much more likely to insult religious people and stereotype them as stupid and ignorant. Of course, the few atheists I have known have never acted that way, so please understand I am not grouping you together.

But my question is: does it bother you in some way when someone says they are of faith? It just seems like some atheists like to "do us a favor" by telling us how stupid we all are. I suppose that's the equivalent of a missionary going out and trying to convert, but it seems more aggressive. What is your take on people of faith? Do any faiths bother you more than others? What are your takes on Wicca and beliefs that don't really acknowledge a God per se? Just curious on what makes you tick. well christiananity bothers me more than others, but i only bother people who are fanatics. i mean look at it this way, when somebody tells you they are of different faith do you not atleast think something of them thats negative? i mean if you are hardly religious then no but i've met people who basically tell people they are going to hell because of they're religion. but i usually dont care to know what people believe in the only time i asked somebody was when he didnt stand for oh canada (he was Jahova's witness) and i totally just said cool (and held my mouth from saying something stupid)

and to explain why i hate christanity: gods were created by man to explain (what was then) the unexplainable and beyond they're logic, christanity was created as a tool to control the people, and it worked very well

Originally posted by chickenlover98
good post with good ideas, but my feeling is that if the christian religion is correct your still ****ed. might as well be a full blown atheist

Depends on which flavor of Christianity you are talking about. In Mormonism, there is a chance for everyone to make it to heaven...not just a few select individuals or people who were baptized while here on earth.

Originally posted by willofthewisp
I have a question for all people who do not believe any religion at all or even the possibility of God.

It seems through the media and message boards like this that atheists are much more likely to insult religious people and stereotype them as stupid and ignorant. Of course, the few atheists I have known have never acted that way, so please understand I am not grouping you together.

But my question is: does it bother you in some way when someone says they are of faith? It just seems like some atheists like to "do us a favor" by telling us how stupid we all are. I suppose that's the equivalent of a missionary going out and trying to convert, but it seems more aggressive. What is your take on people of faith? Do any faiths bother you more than others? What are your takes on Wicca and beliefs that don't really acknowledge a God per se? Just curious on what makes you tick. It bothers me when faith equals "blind guess" or "believe in ****ing ridiculous garbage" as it does with many Religious people. So, I guess, yes, it does bother me.

What did they ever do to you then?

Originally posted by queeq
What did they ever do to you then?

Lots of things. And yet I am even one of the lucky people born in a mostly secular society.

Threads like these are too polarizing as well. I responded because I didn't want, say, chicken dominating the atheist perspective * to chicken* but wouldn't have said anything otherwise.

Anyway, if a person is angry and a jerk, chances are they'd be that way regardless of their beliefs. The stereotype "angry atheists," in my mind, aren't angry because of atheism, or even as a reaction to theism. They're just overtly combative people.

Same of the evangelists who annoy everyone. But neither group is in the majority of their faith, so it's really creating a false dichotomy to present it as a major schism between the two different ideologies.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I feel that the most logical would have to be agnosticism. It is less of a gamble than either full fledged theism or full fledged atheism and it seems to be able to withstand scientific criticism much better than either side.

Honestly, I prayed my little heart out for God to prove he exists. I asked him for signs...angels...anything. To this day, I have gotten basically nothing. If I could get anything other than "hearing" and answer to my prayer, I would dedicate my life to "spreading" the gospel like the vicious Mormons you describe. I was just a child and I genuinely, and with as pure of a heart as can be expected, asked for God to help me believe. I didn't get anything. God says I can just ask him and he will give liberally and upbraid not...so where is my knowledge? This is why I claim to have atheistic sympathies.

Logically, I would say agnosticism is the best choice.



I feel that atheists have to be more viscious because of theistic America. However, argue religion with a Baptists and an Atheist would appear to be rather timid.

I'm going to try and be a semantic smart arse and suggest that EVERYONE is really an agnostic. The definition of agnosticism requires some uncertainty, and I'm pretty sure that even the Pope has had his moments of doubt.

Any way IMO (for what its worth) both sets are as bad as each other. On one side of the coin you have incredibly educated 'believers' such as Wittgenstein, Aquinas, Einstein's, Kant, Pascal and Berkley all presenting good arguments for why belief should be considered.
On the other hand you have numerous angry Evangelicals, who would argue that an Ant could eat its own head, if mentioned in the bible.

On the other hand, there have been numerous educated Atheists, who have also presented mirroring convincing cases, such as Nietche, Sartre and Hume. While others such Richard Dawkins, have spent most of their time Antagonising and Patronising, rather than convincing.

What I hate is when people label me an atheist simply because I don't follow or beleive in any religion. There could be an all powerful God, there could be many and of course the most logical for me is there is not. This is just what my human brain tells me as the idea of such a thing existing just seems ridiculous. The closest thing to God is our planet as it created us and all life and essentialy created it's self. I have no problem with any religion and faith is good for motivation and helping people live a good life. I will admit these people who take the word of say the bible or any holy book as fact really annoy me but they can beleive what they want, just keep it away from me.

Originally posted by Cartesian Doubt
I'm going to try and be a semantic smart arse and suggest that EVERYONE is really an agnostic. The definition of agnosticism requires some uncertainty, and I'm pretty sure that even the Pope has had his moments of doubt.

Any way IMO (for what its worth) both sets are as bad as each other. On one side of the coin you have incredibly educated 'believers' such as Wittgenstein, Aquinas, Einstein's, Kant, Pascal and Berkley all presenting good arguments for why belief should be considered.
On the other hand you have numerous angry Evangelicals, who would argue that an Ant could eat its own head, if mentioned in the bible.

On the other hand, there have been numerous educated Atheists, who have also presented mirroring convincing cases, such as Nietche, Sartre and Hume. While others such Richard Dawkins, have spent most of their time Antagonising and Patronising, rather than convincing.

Not entirely wrong, especially about the "everyone's an agnostic" part (though "agnostic" implies a certain disposition that most don't have, so theist, or atheist is generally better to describe one's beliefs).

Though Einstein wasn't theist. Commonly held myth, but his "God" was equivalent to the wonder and awe that the forces of the universe engender within us....not a personal deity in the Western sense of the word.

As for Dawkins, his very name threatens to derail entire threads, so I tread lightly with him. But after reading a lot of his stuff, I'm always surprised at the negativity directed toward him without specific citations. He's painted as the extremist atheist....but when I read him it always seems like he presents himself much more rationally (and less combative) than one would think based on his rep. Even he himself qualifies his atheism as a version of agnosticism, given the inability we have to objectively "prove" anything. I think the extremist view of him stems mainly from the fact that he's among the world's most well-known atheists, and probably the most well-known. He's a figurehead for the movement, and does constantly advocate atheist thinking...but not at the expense of basic courtesy toward humanity, which many think of him.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Not entirely wrong, especially about the "everyone's an agnostic" part (though "agnostic" implies a certain disposition that most don't have, so theist, or atheist is generally better to describe one's beliefs).

Though Einstein wasn't theist. Commonly held myth, but his "God" was equivalent to the wonder and awe that the forces of the universe engender within us....not a personal deity in the Western sense of the word.

As for Dawkins, his very name threatens to derail entire threads, so I tread lightly with him. But after reading a lot of his stuff, I'm always surprised at the negativity directed toward him without specific citations. He's painted as the extremist atheist....but when I read him it always seems like he presents himself much more rationally (and less combative) than one would think based on his rep. Even he himself qualifies his atheism as a version of agnosticism, given the inability we have to objectively "prove" anything. I think the extremist view of him stems mainly from the fact that he's among the world's most well-known atheists, and probably the most well-known. He's a figurehead for the movement, and does constantly advocate atheist thinking...but not at the expense of basic courtesy toward humanity, which many think of him. i agree with your former points lol im just technically an angry person. however atheism is a hard postion to defend because so many people give you shit for it. i get angry when that happens *shrugs*

i also think your right about dawkins. people assume since he's the leader of atheists so to speak they think he's angry at theists. people definitely make assumptions about atheists. it gets annoying sometimes

Originally posted by chickenlover98


- but what really gets me is people who have blind faith. that is something i cant stand. like for instance latin americans and blacks. no offense but i seriously doubt they comprehend exactly what that religion entails.

- as long as religions dont try and convert people i usually dont get too mad

... WTF, streotyping minorities without any real logic; what religion does not try to convert; yep, you are very logical...

Silly

Originally posted by willofthewisp

It seems through the media and message boards like this that atheists are much more likely to insult religious people and stereotype them as stupid and ignorant.

That's because they're using the anonymity of the internet to their advantage. I doubt the gung-ho Atheists on KMC who frequent the Religion Forum only to talk negatively about religion, do so when they're around people out in the real world.

Its really annoying, and its no different than someone who doesn't like baseball to go into a baseball thread/chatroom only to talk trash about it. Ok, so you don't like it, fine, but keep it to yourself.

Originally posted by willofthewisp
It just seems like some atheists like to "do us a favor" by telling us how stupid we all are. I suppose that's the equivalent of a missionary going out and trying to convert, but it seems more aggressive.

Tell me about it....

i think athiests are just dicks about it cause they're bitter that religious people have something that brings them happyness and makes things seem more simple. kinda like how anti-drug people are so passionate against somethin that doesn't effect them at all.. they're just mad that other people get to do drugs and have fun while they're stuck debating why it's wrong.

so long story short: believing in god is kinda like doing drugs and being an athiest is kinda like having to face things sober and walk around with a stick up ur ass.

Originally posted by red g jacks
i think athiests are just dicks about it cause they're bitter that religious people have something that brings them happyness and makes things seem more simple. kinda like how anti-drug people are so passionate against somethin that doesn't effect them at all.. they're just mad that other people get to do drugs and have fun while they're stuck debating why it's wrong.

so long story short: believing in god is kinda like doing drugs and being an athiest is kinda like having to face things sober and walk around with a stick up ur ass. Just that Religion affects political decision every day. I don't mind a person that is religios in their home, or even talks about it in public or even prays in public ... or whatever they want, as long as me and my girlfriend are not in danger that those people take away our possibility to have an abortion if we want one, if they don't condition our possible children (if we haven't aborted them) that they should be abstinent and there's no other way, if they don't propose that "a blind guess" called "Intelligent Design" gets treated equally to the actual scientific theory of evolution in science classes, as long as my currency doesn't say that "we" trust in "God", as long as my children don't have to say that their nation is subject to a God I don't believe exists and personally hate about as much HItler or Emperor Palpatine, as long as they don't support bullshit church laws like banning gay marriage, banning drugs, banning prostitution...as long as they do not all that shit and all the other shit they do.

Now I realize it's not everyone, and I realize there are some atheist people believing that shit, too, but for a majority the reason is their (imo) ridiculous believe in God, which shouldn't affect me whatsoever. So, believe in God all you want, but don't press his 4000 year old, ignorant laws on me. Makes sense?

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
That's because they're using the anonymity of the internet to their advantage. I doubt the gung-ho Atheists on KMC who frequent the Religion Forum only to talk negatively about religion, do so when they're around people out in the real world.

Its really annoying, and its no different than someone who doesn't like baseball to go into a baseball thread/chatroom only to talk trash about it. Ok, so you don't like it, fine, but keep it to yourself. Because one disbelieves in gods and might not be part of a religion, doesn' t mean that the appropriate standpoint should be to ignore theists entirely, never voice an opinion, and perhaps never even have an opinion in the first place. If it doesn' t make sense for an atheist to be talking about theism, then why do theists ever bother arguing against them?

There is nothing at all wrong with questioning and reexamining ideas and beliefs. To suggest that there might be is merely an attempt to limit debate and dialogue to those who already agree, eliminating the critiques of outsiders and skeptics.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
That's because they're using the anonymity of the internet to their advantage. I doubt the gung-ho Atheists on KMC who frequent the Religion Forum only to talk negatively about religion, do so when they're around people out in the real world.

Its really annoying, and its no different than someone who doesn't like baseball to go into a baseball thread/chatroom only to talk trash about it. Ok, so you don't like it, fine, but keep it to yourself.



Tell me about it.... That's bullshit. At least I never made a secret of my disbelief in God and hate for some of the things Christian institutions do. Sure, you have more tact in real life, if you see some shy, scared "theist" who doesn't really bother anyone why the hell would you go Berserk on them....but on the Internet, in a forum dedicated to that kind of debate, I think it is reasonable to state your opinion as forcefully as you see appropriate, a situation which doesn't often arise in real life.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Just that Religion affects political decision every day. I don't mind a person that is religios in their home, or even talks about it in public or even prays in public ... or whatever they want, as long as me and my girlfriend are not in danger that those people take away our possibility to have an abortion if we want one, if they don't condition our possible children (if we haven't aborted them) that they should be abstinent and there's no other way, if they don't propose that "a blind guess" called "Intelligent Design" gets treated equally to the actual scientific theory of evolution in science classes, as long as my currency doesn't say that "we" trust in "God", as long as my children don't have to say that their nation is subject to a God I don't believe exists and personally hate about as much HItler or Emperor Palpatine, as long as they don't support bullshit church laws like banning gay marriage, banning drugs, banning prostitution...as long as they do not all that shit and all the other shit they do.

Now I realize it's not everyone, and I realize there are some atheist people believing that shit, too, but for a majority the reason is their (imo) ridiculous believe in God, which shouldn't affect me whatsoever. So, believe in God all you want, but don't press his 4000 year old, ignorant laws on me. Makes sense? i think you might be playin the victim just a little bit, depending on where you live. regaurdless of how you feel about political issues like abortion or intelligent design i think the mature thing to do would be just to adress those issues when they come up, not go around telling the religious how ignorant they are for believing in god. my observation is most atheists aren't just passive people who dont want to be subject to religious morality but rather some kind of religious cult in it self which is based on the values of promoting relative morality and rejecting the supernatural all while holding some kind of personal vendetta against the belief in god. that surely isnt helping your cause, just makes people with religion think you're being a douchebag.

i personally dont know if theres a god, wouldn't consider myself religious and don't hold myself to their morals but not once have they really been able to oppress me beyond the petty act of knocking on my door with a pamphlet. i live how i want to live and they don't really have the power to stop me. sorry if you can't say the same..

Originally posted by red g jacks
i think you might be playin the victim just a little bit, depending on where you live.

I said I live in a mostly secular society, which is why I personally have not been victimized by Religious propaganda too severely. The point stands though.

Originally posted by red g jacks
regaurdless of how you feel about political issues like abortion or intelligent design i think the mature thing to do would be just to adress those issues when they come up, not go around telling the religious how ignorant they are for believing in god.

That's an issuein it's own right though. Believing in the God of the bible is close to ridiculous, especially taking the information in the bible literally and as historically correct.

Originally posted by red g jacks
my observation is most atheists aren't just passive people who dont want to be subject to religious morality but rather some kind of religious cult in it self which is based on the values of promoting relative morality and rejecting the supernatural all while holding some kind of personal vendetta against the belief in god.

Well, not my experience, if that was that way it would suck. Wouldn't change the facts speaking against Religion though.

Originally posted by red g jacks
that surely isnt helping your cause, just makes people with religion think you're being a douchebag.

True, possibly, but they believe in a God that created the earth in 6 days, 6000 years ago, so they can think what they want.....as long as they don't force their subjective opinion on morality on everyone.

Originally posted by red g jacks
i personally dont know if theres a god, wouldn't consider myself religious and don't hold myself to their morals but not once have they really been able to oppress me beyond the petty act of knocking on my door with a pamphlet. i live how i want to live and they don't really have the power to stop me. sorry if you can't say the same..

Of course I can't say the same. I do have the freedom to do what I want, but I don't have the freedom to not be persecuted for it if it doesn't harm anyone. Can you walk on the street, past a cop with a bag of hash and a lighted joing without being arrested and persecuted?
Obviously it's not only the fault of Religious people, there are all sorts of secular organisations oppressing people, as well, but Religious moral is certainly a big part of it.

i think it's equally ridiculous to claim there is no god as it is to claim there definitely is a god. none of us know for a fact so any such claim is all speculation.

no i can't walk past the cops with a bag of hash and light it up but i don't really blame the religious for that as much i'd blame the government/law enforcement. although i COULD put the weed in a wine flavored black n mild and smoke it in public without anyone knowing the difference without coming in my breathing space and smelling it (hypothetically). i also wouldn't want drugs to be legal not for religious reasons but for other political reasons (i personally believe the government would ruin the drug trade) but that's another thread's discussion. as far as other things being illegal that don't harm anyone else, well that's life. can't always blame religion for that, has much more to do with money 90% of the time.

Originally posted by red g jacks
i think it's equally ridiculous to claim there is no god as it is to claim there definitely is a god. none of us know for a fact so any such claim is all speculation.

no i can't walk past the cops with a bag of hash and light it up but i don't really blame the religious for that as much i'd blame the government/law enforcement. although i COULD put the weed in a wine flavored black n mild and smoke it in public without anyone knowing the difference without coming in my breathing space and smelling it (hypothetically). i also wouldn't want drugs to be legal not for religious reasons but for other political reasons (i personally believe the government would ruin the drug trade) but that's another thread's discussion. as far as other things being illegal that don't harm anyone else, well that's life. can't always blame religion for that, has much more to do with money 90% of the time.

I wouldn't say equally ridiculous. But yes, claiming there is certainly no God, in no form, is an insane thing to do.

The second thing you said, is what I said. You can't always blame Religion, but often it is partly responsible.

i suppose, but i personally cant think of any freedom i'm deprived through religiously motivated legislation.

if they ever succeeded in banning abortion here then that would count but i'd hope that never effects me either way.

gay marriage i personally couldnt care less, but if you're gay i suppose you have something to ***** about

i guess if i ever needed to kill someone that could be considered a religious rule that stops me...

Originally posted by red g jacks
i suppose, but i personally cant think of any freedom i'm deprived through religiously motivated legislation.

if they ever succeeded in banning abortion here then that would count but i'd hope that never effects me either way.

gay marriage i personally couldnt care less, but if you're gay i suppose you have something to ***** about

i guess if i ever needed to kill someone that could be considered a religious rule that stops me... Well, all the things I said earlier apply more or less especially to people in the United States.

Originally posted by willofthewisp
I have a question for all people who do not believe any religion at all or even the possibility of God.

It seems through the media and message boards like this that atheists are much more likely to insult religious people and stereotype them as stupid and ignorant. Of course, the few atheists I have known have never acted that way, so please understand I am not grouping you together.

But my question is: does it bother you in some way when someone says they are of faith? It just seems like some atheists like to "do us a favor" by telling us how stupid we all are. I suppose that's the equivalent of a missionary going out and trying to convert, but it seems more aggressive. What is your take on people of faith? Do any faiths bother you more than others? What are your takes on Wicca and beliefs that don't really acknowledge a God per se? Just curious on what makes you tick.

thats a well loaded and essentially meaningless question, but let me ask you this:

can you present one name of one person who has died or beed killed in the name of atheism?

well bardock thats where i live. the south too, so we're swarming with jesus freaks.

so lemme run thru ur list.

abortion is legal here...
the abstinence thing is true. health classes need to be reformed but overall them telling me not to **** has never once been a deterant..
intelligent design is an idea, not a rule. and as far as i know not taught in schools here...
gay marriage is illegal but once again im not gay so doesnt really deprive me of anything..
drugs have about _ this much to do with jesus.. it was a religious group that initially pushed for banning drugs as well as alcohol but the government has since unbanned alcohol so the only excuse for the drug war is money...
prostitution well, i guess lol but that doesn't really bother me to be honest. i wouldn't care if they legalized it but im not being deprived of much since legal or illegal it's available and the main reason i dont participate is not because it's illegal, but because it's nasty. i prefer my sex to be with someone who isn't thinking about scoring crack afterwards.

so over all two of those things ring true, yet neither one is of any use to me. so i'd say they haven't deprived me of shit. if you're a homosexual or a john, then i guess you may run into some problems here.

Originally posted by red g jacks
well bardock thats where i live. the south too, so we're swarming with jesus freaks.

so lemme run thru ur list.

Originally posted by red g jacks
abortion is legal here...
And strongly opposed by a large amount of Christian's and people being harassed and even killed for performing them.

Originally posted by red g jacks
the abstinence thing is true. health classes need to be reformed but overall them telling me not to **** has never once been a deterant..

Not a deterrent. But, possibly a reason why (not necessarily you) but others have no idea about sexual protection, apparently leading to 1 in 4 girls to have an STD nowadays, not to speak about teenage pregnancy (resulting in abortion...yeah, the church is at fault for high abortion rates, good job, you twats)

Originally posted by red g jacks
intelligent design is an idea, not a rule. and as far as i know not taught in schools here...

I believe it is taught in a few schools. And yes, it is an "idea", but again there is a large support for the idea and a movement to push it on scientist that should solely be responding to the scientific method, not political ideologies.

Originally posted by red g jacks
gay marriage is illegal but once again im not gay so doesnt really deprive me of anything.

It does deprive others of something, kinda like segregation didn't really bother whites, cause they got the shinier piece of pie. It was still bullshit.

Originally posted by red g jacks
drugs have about _ this much to do with jesus.. it was a religious group that initially pushed for banning drugs as well as alcohol but the government has since unbanned alcohol so the only excuse for the drug war is money...

Money? How is that an excuse. But granted, it's not a solely religious issue.


Originally posted by red g jacks
prostitution well, i guess lol but that doesn't really bother me to be honest. i wouldn't care if they legalized it but im not being deprived of much since legal or illegal it's available and the main reason i dont participate is not because it's illegal, but because it's nasty. i prefer my sex to be with someone who isn't thinking about scoring crack afterwards.

Yeah, not bothering you. But bothering other "free" citizens of your country. I wouldn't be bothered if all blonde people get killed...I'd still be opposed to it.

Originally posted by red g jacks
so over all two of those things ring true, yet neither one is of any use to me. so i'd say they haven't deprived me of shit. if you're a homosexual or a john, then i guess you may run into some problems here.

3 people by your evaluation. 5 for any reasonably concerned person though. Sure, you are not bothered by everything, but it is still an issue.

Originally posted by Bardock42
And strongly opposed by a large amount of Christian's and people being harassed and even killed for performing them. very rarely. i thought we were talking about the religious denying our personal freedoms on a day to day basis not the rare occurences of religious fanaticism.



they teach birth control and safe sex in schools. they teach it secondary to abstinence which i find stupid but, with that said, anyone who can't figure out the concept of using protection really shouldn't be having sex... sorry but i can't pity them one bit if they get burnt.



i've heard that it's taught as an alternative to the big bang/evolution in a few random schools out in bum****, america. but i really don't see how that effects you or me.



not like i oppose gay marriage. my initial claim was that the religious havn't been able to stop me from doing anything. i didn't say everyone manages to escape their grasps. of course some people are still oppressed by religion. look at saudi arabia



not an excuse my nigga it's the reason. look at the money surrounding the drug war and it becomes oh so obvious that it's not about religion at all but rather, the government doesnt like anyone making money despite them. if you decide to anyway then they will figure out a way to profit from it.




like i say go ahead and make it legal i don't oppose that, it would be better from a health standpoint. but this doesn't debunk my claim that jesus can't hold me down.



well could be 3 if abstinence had been enforced rather than just promoted or if they really withheld info about safe sex from children (which public schools do not, only religious private schools, and those are allowed to enforce religious morality). not that none of it bothers me i just feel that most of the bitching surrounding religion stems more from personal bitterness rather than from trying to be a "freedom fighter" (not you personally, i dont know you but i've seen plenty of atheists with a chip on their shoulder and it just seems like the definition of ironic that, they ***** about the very thing they become.)

Originally posted by red g jacks
not an excuse my nigga it's the reason. look at the money surrounding the drug war and it becomes oh so obvious that it's not about religion at all but rather, the government doesnt like anyone making money despite them. if you decide to anyway then they will figure out a way to profit from it.



The other stuff I feel has been discussed thoroughly.

This though, is weird. As the government could make much more money making it legal.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Lots of things.

Like what?

Originally posted by queeq
Like what?

You didn't read any of the posts that came after that post, eh?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Just that Religion affects political decision every day. I don't mind a person that is religios in their home, or even talks about it in public or even prays in public ... or whatever they want, as long as me and my girlfriend are not in danger that those people take away our possibility to have an abortion if we want one, if they don't condition our possible children (if we haven't aborted them) that they should be abstinent and there's no other way, if they don't propose that "a blind guess" called "Intelligent Design" gets treated equally to the actual scientific theory of evolution in science classes, as long as my currency doesn't say that "we" trust in "God", as long as my children don't have to say that their nation is subject to a God I don't believe exists and personally hate about as much HItler or Emperor Palpatine, as long as they don't support bullshit church laws like banning gay marriage, banning drugs, banning prostitution...as long as they do not all that shit and all the other shit they do.

Now I realize it's not everyone, and I realize there are some atheist people believing that shit, too, but for a majority the reason is their (imo) ridiculous believe in God, which shouldn't affect me whatsoever. So, believe in God all you want, but don't press his 4000 year old, ignorant laws on me. Makes sense? two thumbs up. 1000% in agreement.

Originally posted by Bardock42
You didn't read any of the posts that came after that post, eh?

I did... I still don't see anything they did to you, personally. Unless you mean the posts by Christians in this thread?

Originally posted by queeq
I did... I still don't see anything they did to you, personally. Unless you mean the posts by Christians in this thread? I never said that Christian's do anything to me personally. They use democratic processes to push their opinion. Well, unless you consider Christians trying to condition me into subscribing to their believes a personal attack...which one might do.

Originally posted by willofthewisp
I have a question for all people who do not believe any religion at all or even the possibility of God.

It seems through the media and message boards like this that atheists are much more likely to insult religious people and stereotype them as stupid and ignorant. Of course, the few atheists I have known have never acted that way, so please understand I am not grouping you together.

But my question is: does it bother you in some way when someone says they are of faith? It just seems like some atheists like to "do us a favor" by telling us how stupid we all are. I suppose that's the equivalent of a missionary going out and trying to convert, but it seems more aggressive. What is your take on people of faith? Do any faiths bother you more than others? What are your takes on Wicca and beliefs that don't really acknowledge a God per se? Just curious on what makes you tick.
I'm not an atheist but I can appreciate your curiosity.

What do you mean by "God?" The Christian God exclusively? That exclusiveness tends to turn many people off, and often, defensiveness follows.

It's been my experience that sincere theists are less likely than sincere atheists to admit that, ultimately, no one really knows if "God" exists. In my opinion, that is not admirable.

Originally posted by Mindship
I'm not an atheist but I can appreciate your curiosity.

What do you mean by "God?" The Christian God exclusively? That exclusiveness tends to turn many people off, and often, defensiveness follows.

It's been my experience that sincere theists are less likely than sincere atheists to admit that, ultimately, no one really knows if "God" exists. In my opinion, that is not admirable. well the reason is theists completely believe in a god. that is a given. its much harder to admit a negative than to accept a positive

Originally posted by Bardock42
The other stuff I feel has been discussed thoroughly.

This though, is weird. As the government could make much more money making it legal. i'll pm you what i mean if you want

dont want to derail this thread any further

Originally posted by red g jacks
i'll pm you what i mean if you want

dont want to derail this thread any further Would appreciate it.

Originally posted by queeq
What did they ever do to you then?


Originally posted by Bardock42
Lots of things. And yet I am even one of the lucky people born in a mostly secular society.


Originally posted by queeq
Like what?

Originally posted by Bardock42
You didn't read any of the posts that came after that post, eh?


Originally posted by queeq
I did... I still don't see anything they did to you, personally.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I never said that Christian's do anything to me personally. They use democratic processes to push their opinion. Well, unless you consider Christians trying to condition me into subscribing to their believes a personal attack...which one might do.


Confusing conversation.... Sounds like you have not been harassed by Christians. You just don't like what they have to say. That's your right, just as it's their right to stand for their opinions.

And EVERYBODY uses the democratic process to push their opinion. That's what democracy is all about. Every politician tries to get his points across, legalised etc. The one who gets the largest support, gets his way. Why should a Christian suddenly be excluded from that process? Because if he is, it's not very democratic anymore.
Once you start excluding groups from the democratic process, you're on your way to dictatorship.

Originally posted by queeq
Confusing conversation.... Sounds like you have not been harassed by Christians. You just don't like what they have to say. That's your right, just as it's their right to stand for their opinions.

And EVERYBODY uses the democratic process to push their opinion. That's what democracy is all about. Every politician tries to get his points across, legalised etc. The one who gets the largest support, gets his way. Why should a Christian suddenly be excluded from that process? Because if he is, it's not very democratic anymore.
Once you start excluding groups from the democratic process, you're on your way to dictatorship.

Again, you disregarded all my posts on the topic. I was forced into Religious education for years. I take it that doesn't count similarly to using the democratic process because "Everyone tries to convince you of their point ... wahh ... wahh", right?

So, using the democratic process is excluded from being harassed. If all nazis got together used the Democratic process to ..I don't know...ban Jews from marrying or something then the Jews would not have been harassed by the nazis? Serious?

Also, that's idiotic. Democracy is a dictatorship. The majority can do what the **** they want. Once you start excluding everyone from the democratic process you're on your way to freedom.

I am sorry, but just because Christians didn't come together to beat me with a bat to stop me from marrying a male I could possibly fall in love with, doesn't mean that Christian's didn't use other processes to force me to adapt their morality by the use of force (police). You have no right to exclude any kind of oppression, really. Also, before you talk bullshit again (which will obviously happen), remember that I know that other groups do similar shit (socialists, nazis, Muslims, Jews, communists, authoritarians), it just doesn't excuse Christian's from doing so.

Thanks for using the usual polite phrasing to continue this debate.

But you just have a problem with the democratic system. Yes, a majority can do whatever it wants, as long as they keep that majority. THat's part of the system you live in. If you don't like it, leave. Luckily for you most Western countries also have Trias Politica, where not everyone can just do whatever they want, not even when you're in power.

In the past people would be in charge by birthright and only a small elite ruled the country and made everyone do whatever they want. Some consider democracy an improvement. It just sounds you don't like any form of government with another opinion that yours.

And harassment is something else than getting sent to religious schools. Blame your parents for that for frocing you to go to schools you didn't liek, not the schools, or the religious people. I've been going to religious schools all my life and I have had no problems at all. And disagreeing with people there just helped me to learn to think for myself.

No insult intended, but you frustrations sound stronger than your arguments.

Originally posted by queeq
Thanks for using the usual polite phrasing to continue this debate.

But you just have a problem with the democratic system. Yes, a majority can do whatever it wants, as long as they keep that majority. THat's part of the system you live in. If you don't like it, leave. Luckily for you most Western countries also have Trias Politica, where not everyone can just do whatever they want, not even when you're in power.

In the past people would be in charge by birthright and only a small elite ruled the country and made everyone do whatever they want. Some consider democracy an improvement. It just sounds you don't like any form of government with another opinion that yours.

And harassment is something else than getting sent to religious schools. Blame your parents for that for frocing you to go to schools you didn't liek, not the schools, or the religious people. I've been going to religious schools all my life and I have had no problems at all. And disagreeing with people there just helped me to learn to think for myself.

No insult intended, but you frustrations sound stronger than your arguments. Regardless of the nonsense you say, Christian's as a group, are strongly organized and similarly conditioned, so that they can use the democratic system to oppress people with their views on solely personal issues. And yes, I dislike the democratic system, but that doesn't mean that I also dislike groups that have in my opinion idiotic morals and on top of that force them on people. So, that's the reason I dislike Religion and some (though not all) religious people, hope that answers the initial question.

Not really. I still wonder what they did to you that make syou hate them so much. It doesn't sound very healthy.

The idea that Christians opppress and/or brainwash their members is seriously outdated, by the way. They are not sects. You sound rather biased without any serious foundation.

It seems you want room for your own freedom and prefer to take way the freedom of others to do what they believe. That makes you just as bad. You said you want the freedom to have an abortion if the need for that arises. Christians want the freedom to object to abortion. The group that gets the largest following wins. So I propose you get yourself strongly organised and large following, that you can condition in your own views. That is the freedom you have.

Science H Logic. Are you serious?Originally posted by queeq
Not really. I still wonder what they did to you that make syou hate them so much. It doesn't sound very healthy.

Yeah, I will consult my psychologist about it. What I don't think is healthy is that you don't feel like admitting to your theistic leanings.

Originally posted by queeq
The idea that Christians opppress and/or brainwash their members is seriously outdated, by the way. They are not sects. You sound rather biased without any serious foundation.

It's not outdated. They might not put them in a room and beat them until they believe, but Christians (and most Religions up to date) use brainwashing techniques and conditioning of children to ensure that they will not run out of followers. Hardly deniable.

Originally posted by queeq
It seems you want room for your own freedom and prefer to take way the freedom of others to do what they believe. That makes you just as bad. You said you want the freedom to have an abortion if the need for that arises. Christians want the freedom to object to abortion. The group that gets the largest following wins. So I propose you get yourself strongly organised and large following, that you can condition in your own views. That is the freedom you have.

I want room for my freedom. Also for theirs, as long as it does not include the freedom to oppress people. I want every Religious person to have the right to practice their Religion and believe what they want, I do not want anyone to have the right to take away freedoms that do not affect you in any manner. It's not just Christians, as I said, it's anyone that wants to use legislation to stop doing something that does not harm any person except for possibly the person doing it. It's a pretty easy philosophical concept really.

So I propose you go **** yourself. hmm

You always enlighten us with your nice phrasing. Shows you certainly know how to have a civilised debate. Can't wait to see you start your own political faction.

Originally posted by Bardock42
It's not outdated. They might not put them in a room and beat them until they believe, but Christians (and most Religions up to date) use brainwashing techniques and conditioning of children to ensure that they will not run out of followers. Hardly deniable. hmm

Apart from certain sects, it's veryu deniable. Give us some proof then? How does, for instance, the Catholic Church brainwash their followers? Or the Presbyterians? Or the Southern Baptists? Or the Church of England? Of the Protestant Chruch in Europe? I'd like to see some evidence.

Originally posted by queeq
You always enlighten us with your nice phrasing. Shows you certainly know how to have a civilised debate. Can't wait to see you start your own political faction.



Apart from certain sects, it's veryu deniable. Give us some proof then? How does, for instance, the Catholic Church brainwash their followers? Or the Presbyterians? Or the Southern Baptists? Or the Church of England? Of the Protestant Chruch in Europe? I'd like to see some evidence.
Thanks.

I never said that the leaders brainwash their followers. Though their is conditioning and brainwashing going on by parents of the children, which is not necessarily discouraged by the church.

Originally posted by queeq
That makes you just as bad. You said you want the freedom to have an abortion if the need for that arises. Christians want the freedom to object to abortion. The group that gets the largest following wins. So I propose you get yourself strongly organised and large following, that you can condition in your own views. That is the freedom you have.

if democracy includes the right of one minority to strip a right from another via personal beliefs and popular opinion, then what if a population voted for practicing religion to be illegal? would that be an example of democracy/freedom in action?

Originally posted by willofthewisp
It seems through the media and message boards like this that atheists are much more likely to insult religious people and stereotype them as stupid and ignorant. Of course, the few atheists I have known have never acted that way, so please understand I am not grouping you together.


Now where would you get an idea like that? hmmm.......

Originally posted by Bardock42
Again, you disregarded all my posts on the topic.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Also, that's idiotic. Democracy is a dictatorship. The majority can do what the **** they want. Once you start excluding everyone from the democratic process you're on your way to freedom.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I Also, before you talk bullshit again (which will obviously happen), remember that I know that other groups do similar shit (socialists, nazis, Muslims, Jews, communists, authoritarians), it just doesn't excuse Christian's from doing so.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Regardless of the nonsense you say

Originally posted by Bardock42
So I propose you go **** yourself. hmm


I was gonna add posts like this from others here, but I thought showing how many of these "respectful" comments came from one user was a much more powerful argument.

Good post.

Originally posted by Schecter
if democracy includes the right of one minority to strip a right from another via personal beliefs and popular opinion, then what if a population voted for practicing religion to be illegal? would that be an example of democracy/freedom in action?

No one is stripping rights from anyone. As stated before, there is a Trias Politica in most Western Democracies and there is such a thing as the constitution. In most Western democracies the Freedom of Religion is a constitutional right. Removing unborn embryos from a womb is not a right included in the constitution. It is in fact no right at all until it's legalised. That's basically what's going on: a group of people trying to attain a new right.

And yes, if a 2/3 majority would decide to remove the constitutional right of Freedom of Religion and would even forbid it, then that would be democratic indeed. A People's Democracy like the Soviet Union did have religion forbidden, so it's not such a big fantasy thing to have such a situation. Freedom is take too much for granted these days, be happy with the freedom you have. And feel free to attain more, just don't go screaming you have the RIGHT to have all the freedom you think you deserve.

Originally posted by willRules
Now where would you get an idea like that? hmmm.......












I was gonna add posts like this from others here, but I thought showing how many of these "respectful" comments came from one user was a much more powerful argument.

Would be a good point if I would only insult religious people or if queeq would be openly Christian. Since neither of those applies your point is just that I am rude and use strong and offensive language in my posts...which, I doubt comes as a surprise to anyone.

Also, how is stating that someone disregarded what I said disrespectful?

Originally posted by queeq
Good post.



No one is stripping rights from anyone. As stated before, there is a Trias Politica in most Western Democracies and there is such a thing as the constitution. In most Western democracies the Freedom of Religion is a constitutional right. Removing unborn embryos from a womb is not a right included in the constitution. It is in fact no right at all until it's legalised. That's basically what's going on: a group of people trying to attain a new right.

And yes, if a 2/3 majority would decide to remove the constitutional right of Freedom of Religion and would even forbid it, then that would be democratic indeed. A People's Democracy like the Soviet Union did have religion forbidden, so it's not such a big fantasy thing to have such a situation. Freedom is take too much for granted these days, be happy with the freedom you have. And feel free to attain more, just don't go screaming you have the RIGHT to have all the freedom you think you deserve. You are correct about it just being a right when it becomes legalized or at least not forbidden. But the freedom I have already, I can go around killing people, I can smoke marijuana and I can go abort children of pregnant women. The freedom is not what I am "screaming" about, it's the right to use the freedoms that do not harm any other person. Which is obviously a philosophical belief and as such debatable. But I feel like I have very much the freedom to be annoyed at people that are opposed to that believe I hold. Kinda like Religios people can be annoyed at people trying to ban their believes. Or force them to be atheist or something.

Originally posted by queeq

No one is stripping rights from anyone. As stated before, there is a Trias Politica in most Western Democracies and there is such a thing as the constitution. In most Western democracies the Freedom of Religion is a constitutional right. Removing unborn embryos from a womb is not a right included in the constitution. It is in fact no right at all until it's legalised. That's basically what's going on: a group of people trying to attain a new right.

i see it as a group of people trying to strip the rights of other people. i find my take logically sound simply because nobody is being forced to have an abortion, but rather forced not to. you were supposed to examine the moral implications of my statement.

also, just fyi, criminalization of drug use is against the constitution, and look how that worked out. with the right manipulation, the constitution can and has been rendered useless in preserving the rights of u.s. citizens.

Originally posted by queeq
And yes, if a 2/3 majority would decide to remove the constitutional right of Freedom of Religion and would even forbid it, then that would be democratic indeed. A People's Democracy like the Soviet Union did have religion forbidden, so it's not such a big fantasy thing to have such a situation. Freedom is take too much for granted these days, be happy with the freedom you have. And feel free to attain more, just don't go screaming you have the RIGHT to have all the freedom you think you deserve.

'be happy with the freedom that i have'. the mantra of any dictatorship.
a truly 'free' society is not one which is oppressive, and ESPECIALLY not a theocracy, which all this pro-life crap is rooted in.

Originally posted by willRules

I was gonna add posts like this from others here, but I thought showing how many of these "respectful" comments came from one user was a much more powerful argument.

argument of what? that you have a bigoted mentallity and wish to paint athiests as being rude and vile and spewing venom? oh, except the few that you know. how sweet. thats kind of like telling a black guy "you're nice for a black person. not like all those other dirty n*****s. you're one of the good ones"

Originally posted by Schecter
a truly 'free' society is not one which is oppressive, and ESPECIALLY not a theocracy, which all this pro-life crap is rooted in.

I don't even think it exists. But Western society does have the freedom to strive for more freedom, and the porspect of even achieving that. I think that's quite a luxuruous position compared to many other parts in this world. But there's freedom for the individual and there's freedom for all co-habitants. They may clash, your freedom may inhibit the freedom of others.
And when it comes to abortion, it's just a matter of something being legal or not. To have opinion whether you like a law or not, is part of the freedom we already have attained.
In my country it's already legal. So it's a bit different here. But I still think people who object to it (and Bardock is right to say it's a philosophical question) are entitled to. They don't strip rights, they object and also offer alternatives. That's pretty responsible, not just shouting.

Originally posted by Schecter
argument of what? that you have a bigoted mentallity and wish to paint athiests as being rude and vile and spewing venom? oh, except the few that you know. how sweet. thats kind of like telling a black guy "you're nice for a black person. not like all those other dirty n*****s. you're one of the good ones" the stuff under your name just doesnt sum it up enough i wish u came on the religion forum. its true though. im one of the angry atheists, but i seriously that even 1/3 of atheists feel like i do.

dont label people, will, by a small percentage of the actual population. thats like finding one mutant baby and thing, oh all humans must look like this. there are tons ofvariations you just have to look for them

Originally posted by chickenlover98
the stuff under your name just doesnt sum it up enough i wish u came on the religion forum. its true though. im one of the angry atheists, but i seriously that even 1/3 of atheists feel like i do.

dont label people, will, by a small percentage of the actual population. thats like finding one mutant baby and thing, oh all humans must look like this. there are tons ofvariations you just have to look for them Wow, you can't form a coherent thought, can you?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Wow, you can't form a coherent thought, can you? i just woke up man gimme a break

Chuck will understand, chickenlover.

Originally posted by willofthewisp
I have a question for all people who do not believe any religion at all or even the possibility of God.

It seems through the media and message boards like this that atheists are much more likely to insult religious people and stereotype them as stupid and ignorant. Of course, the few atheists I have known have never acted that way, so please understand I am not grouping you together.

But my question is: does it bother you in some way when someone says they are of faith? It just seems like some atheists like to "do us a favor" by telling us how stupid we all are. I suppose that's the equivalent of a missionary going out and trying to convert, but it seems more aggressive. What is your take on people of faith? Do any faiths bother you more than others? What are your takes on Wicca and beliefs that don't really acknowledge a God per se? Just curious on what makes you tick.




I will admit, I used to have a severe dislike of Christianity, but then I calmed down a bit, when I realized just because many people share a religion, does not mean they all think alike.



It doesn't bother me for someone to believe in God. Not in the slightest. What DOES bother me is when people claim they know God's will. That is total stupidity.

I hope I don't have to explain to you why.

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
I will admit, I used to have a severe dislike of Christianity, but then I calmed down a bit, when I realized just because many people share a religion, does not mean they all think alike.



It doesn't bother me for someone to believe in God. Not in the slightest. What DOES bother me is when people claim they know God's will. That is total stupidity.

I hope I don't have to explain to you why. Agreed.

How do you mean "know God's will," exactly? I'm just going for specifics because I'm interested. I mean, yes, I am in total agreement with you for people that choose to impose their beliefs on other people using the excuse that it is God's will, such as many establishments in the Middle East, but on an individual basis, part of being a Christian is trying to discover what God's will is and trying to do it. It's very hard to explain, and I'm sure at times it can be hard for you to explain your belief system too. I was just wondering what you meant.

Not by religious denominations means..imo. If a WILL is controlling than it is NOT your FREE WILL...

It does bother me when people say they believe in God. Most people really couldn't defend their position when I talked to them, and had just been brainwashed into believing. It's a bit sad to see people just crumble when they try and think logically about God, and it's a sad state when people's belief in god is not founded on rationality, since those people mire themselves in ignorance. It's the kind of faith pushed by Evangelicals and I think some christians actively avoid logical thought since they know they will feel bad about themselves.

Originally posted by willofthewisp
How do you mean "know God's will," exactly? I'm just going for specifics because I'm interested. I mean, yes, I am in total agreement with you for people that choose to impose their beliefs on other people using the excuse that it is God's will, such as many establishments in the Middle East, but on an individual basis, part of being a Christian is trying to discover what God's will is and trying to do it. It's very hard to explain, and I'm sure at times it can be hard for you to explain your belief system too. I was just wondering what you meant.



What I meant was this:


Christianity, to me, is one way of knowing God. But I think there are other ways as well. To claim that Christianity (or Islam, etc.) is the only path to God, I think is ignorance.


Even if we're talking from one religious perspective: For one Christian to tell another Christian that he or she is not following the will of God, I also think is total ignorance. How could one person know what God's will is ?

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
Christianity, to me, is one way of knowing God.
Um, what makes you think there's ANY way of knowing God?

It's sad that's been your experience with us. No, God can't really be proven or disproven, but religion/philosophy in general has to do more with faith, I think.

I wish you knew more Christians (and people of other faiths) that use logic and reason in every other aspect of their lives. I know several religious people in careers that involve high levels on analysis and scientific method.

Often times, if you ask a Christian why they believe what they do, they will tell you a great number of them will say that they believe their hearts were touched. They've experienced things in their life that have made them believe what they do. Very few depend only on the authority of their minister to tell them what to believe. You could go the other way, also, and say that nonbelieving parents, certain schools, and the secular media can also brainwash.

Originally posted by willofthewisp
It's sad that's been your experience with us. No, God can't really be proven or disproven, but religion/philosophy in general has to do more with faith, I think.
Yeah, that's the part that bothers me. Faith is really one of the most dangerous forces in the universe. Particularly if it's blind faith and there's no way to get the person to change his mind.

Originally posted by willofthewisp
I wish you knew more Christians (and people of other faiths) that use logic and reason in every other aspect of their lives. I know several religious people in careers that involve high levels on analysis and scientific method.
So do I. But they are the minority IMO. I seem to recall a study showing that 40% (It might of been higher, it definitely wasn't lower.) of evangelical children couldn't tell the difference between genesis and revelations. The thing that annoys me the most is when people don't understand their own religion. I was arguing with this guy who said that the story of Moses was in genesis. It's pathetic.

Originally posted by willofthewisp
Often times, if you ask a Christian why they believe what they do, they will tell you a great number of them will say that they believe their hearts were touched. They've experienced things in their life that have made them believe what they do. Very few depend only on the authority of their minister to tell them what to believe. You could go the other way, also, and say that nonbelieving parents, certain schools, and the secular media can also brainwash.
I don't think as many people have experiences motivating them. 90% of Christians i've met offline were completely in the thralls of blind faith, totally brainwashed by their parents. I tend to think (from my experience) that secular families work harder to provide their children with logical thinking skills and knowledge of other viewpoints.

Originally posted by queeq
Chuck will understand, chickenlover. thank you for understanding my son

Originally posted by chickenlover98
i agree with you, i am an atheist and i definitely consider those who believe in religion foolish. it does bother me ecause to me the only lgical position is atheism.

Believing in a god or collective spirit is not foolish (and I'm not saying that's what you said.) Even if a person believes in a god or a process and ritual through which they believe they can endear themselves to that entity or influence and effect it's "descisions", it doesn't particularly imply foolishness. Religion is a very basic and somewhat essential aspect to the human condition; it's the basis for every person of religion deciding they can rationalize our own ability to seperate ourselves from nature while implying to themselves that we have the means to control the world they already don't believe themselves a part of. What is foolish is believing that as simple human beings we are so far outisde the natural order of things that we can control the lives of others around us. It's a pretty simple idea that someone who believes in ideas A, B and C, is more comfortable believing in those ideas if someone else, or everyone for that matter, believed in A, B and C too.

Originally posted by chickenlover98
i havent seen the works of "god" in motion and the world really isnt fair which a just god(if there was one mind you) wouldnt allow. i love talking about religion and am an adamant atheist. Mormons bother me the most for 1 reason. they try and convert me my shotgun loves converting mormons. but the religion that bothers me just for being so public and anuisance is christianity.

You haven't seen the "works" of god, but neither have most of the people who believe in this religion or that one. Conversion is a lovely scapegoat for the animmosity felt by athists in the face of the questions presented by religious people. But it isn't that a religious person is trying to replace a belief; it's that the religious are trying to push the answer to a question you don't have. It's like trying to say "Hey, I've got the answer to your questions", when no answer was asked for or required. It isn't one belief v another; it's one belief being pushed on someone who doesn't require it.

Originally posted by chickenlover98
but what really gets me is people who have blind faith. that is something i cant stand. like for instance latin americans and blacks. no offense but i seriously doubt they comprehend exactly what that religion entails. it seriously pisses me off when someone follows something they were brought up into blindly. i wasnt raised atheist i logically came to that conclusion. my family is jewish, but that seems even less logical than christianity.

"Blind Faith" is typically a contradiction in terms.

Judaism is much more logical than Christianity. In fact, much like many eastern religions, it's had time to sharpen the blade; refine itself. That's why there aren't as many Jews running around the net posting, as there are christians and muslims and atheists. (Just to answer the question posed by another thread) While my first reaction is to agree that people who grow up believing everything they've been told is fact and managed to grow up holding on to those beliefs are usually willfully ignorant, more often than not such an instance implies that have found rationalization for their adult beliefs. It's only those who present as their arguments rationalization used by creationist museums and sunday school classes that strike me as those who are willfully ignorant.

Originally posted by chickenlover98
as long as religions dont try and convert people i usually dont get too mad

How many religions do you know that aren't told to do just that, though; as though it were an essential element to their personal salvation and just living?

Yours are the answeres to the question that only a troll would provide.

Originally posted by Devil King
Judaism is much more logical than Christianity. In fact, much like many eastern religions, it's had time to sharpen the blade; refine itself. More "logical?" I would say it's more direct: Jews don't require someone to "save" them. Jews save themselves, through study and especially by good deed. Also, Judaism encourages asking questions. Except for the existence of God--which is taken as the inital given--everything else is open to question.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Um, what makes you think there's ANY way of knowing God?



I meant God as a phenomena, not God as a literal being. Different people will claim they have experienced the presence of God, but will describe it differently. Whatever this experience is, I am just calling it God for arguments sake.

Originally posted by Devil King
Religion is a very basic and somewhat essential aspect to the human condition; it's the basis for every person of religion deciding they can rationalize our own ability to seperate ourselves from nature while implying to themselves that we have the means to control the world they already don't believe themselves a part of. What is foolish is believing that as simple human beings we are so far outisde the natural order of things that we can control the lives of others around us.

I disagree with this point here. I think it is the other way around.

Specifically:

Religion is a very basic and somewhat essential aspect to the human condition. What is foolish is the basis for every person of religion deciding they can rationalize our own ability to separate ourselves from nature while implying to themselves that we have the means to control the world they already don't believe themselves a part of. Believing that we human beings are so superior to everything around us that we even control the lives of others around us is actually much more natural because nature is saturated with social hierarchies; hierarchies that sometimes transcend more than one species. (Humans a grand example of this last point.)

nit pick: social hierarchies are almost exclusively conspecific, re: animals don't have inter-species social hierarchies

Originally posted by inimalist
nit pick: social hierarchies are almost exclusively conspecific, re: animals don't have inter-species social hierarchies

Really? You mean you have never heard of pack of wolves giving way on their kill to a bear? That is what I meant. I was referring to "pecking order" and symbiosis as a "social.

lol

its actually funny, I just finished a paper, for which I read a paper about evolution that made the claim

my assumption is that social hierarchies are different from just "pecking order" or "who is the biggest" type thing.

Originally posted by inimalist
lol

its actually funny, I just finished a paper, for which I read a paper about evolution that made the claim

my assumption is that social hierarchies are different from just "pecking order" or "who is the biggest" type thing.

Most definitely.

However, in this context (from both DK and myself) it was referential to "who controls who".

Can you think of better terms to define what I am meaning other than "social hierarchy"? If so, I welcome them. I couldn't think of ANYTHING to put into words what I was meaning and I had to settle for "social hierarchy".

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
I meant God as a phenomena, not God as a literal being. Different people will claim they have experienced the presence of God, but will describe it differently. Whatever this experience is, I am just calling it God for arguments sake.
You could call it "them being out of their minds."

Originally posted by Mindship
More "logical?" I would say it's more direct: Jews don't require someone to "save" them. Jews save themselves, through study and especially by good deed. Also, Judaism encourages asking questions. Except for the existence of God--which is taken as the inital given--everything else is open to question.

It sounds to me like you examples of more "directed" roughly equate themselves to more "logical".

But, they aren't my point. The followers tend to be more logical than the religion. Take Christianity as an example: christies are a religion independant of Judaism, but include Jewish religious text as the first half of the Christian holy text. This was likely done to illustrate where Christians were before the enlightenment of Jesus, but far too many Christians hold the old testament on par with the actual words of the Christ as written in the new testament. So many ignore the love and acceptance illustrated by the stories of Jesus in favor of holding on to the hate and disdain illustrated by the original covenant laid out in the OT that Jesus came to Earth to revise. So, basically, Jesus wasted his time, life, pain and sacrifice.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I disagree with this point here. I think it is the other way around.

Specifically:

Religion is a very basic and somewhat essential aspect to the human condition. What is foolish is the basis for every person of religion deciding they can rationalize our own ability to separate ourselves from nature while implying to themselves that we have the means to control the world they already don't believe themselves a part of. Believing that we human beings are so superior to everything around us that we even control the lives of others around us is actually much more natural because nature is saturated with social hierarchies; hierarchies that sometimes transcend more than one species. (Humans a grand example of this last point.)

it is unfortunate that most religions closely resemble the natural hierarchy they so strongly profess they are not a part of. Your idea only furthers the point that religions are a construct of humans, and not the "divine".

Originally posted by Devil King
It sounds to me like you examples of more "directed" roughly equate themselves to more "logical". Understood. I was attempting to be more magnanimous

Originally posted by Devil King
it is unfortunate that most religions closely resemble the natural hierarchy they so strongly profess they are not a part of. Your idea only furthers the point that religions are a construct of humans, and not the "divine".

I do not disagree. Theists, namely Christians, seem to think we are eons ahead or light years better than the organisms around us. That's the "foolish" part, imo. That belief probably comes from "created in God's image".


I believe God created man via evolution.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I believe God created man via evolution. This is what my wife believes.

Originally posted by Da Pittman
This is what my wife believes.
Does she believe that God intervened personally to create humans during evolution? If not, she is going against a dogma of the Catholic Church.

Originally posted by Transfinitum
Does she believe that God intervened personally to create humans during evolution? If not, she is going against a dogma of the Catholic Church. I'm not sure what you are asking.

Originally posted by King Kandy
You could call it "them being out of their minds."


Only if they think they touched an old white man living in the sky.



I have my own personal beliefs about God, but I don't bring them up unless asked. What I will say is that I don't think we are separate from or below God. And at the same time, I use God and Nature as interchangeable terms.


I don't think there's anything wrong or straight up ignorant about beleiving in God. I just think the problem is when you think you know what your God's plan is for other people.



Somehow, I think every religion is a little bit correct (but mostly wrong). I believe every religion has figured something useful out about nature/god.

But I do not think it is an absolute necessity to know God. I think it's farrr more important to know yourself. Sometimes we can be a bigger mystery than anything around us.

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
Only if they think they touched an old white man living in the sky.
True, true.

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
I have my own personal beliefs about God, but I don't bring them up unless asked. What I will say is that I don't think we are separate from or below God. And at the same time, I use God and Nature as interchangeable terms.
Why bother? Using God as a term for nature just ties it down to the obsolete concept of "The old white man in the sky."

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
I don't think there's anything wrong or straight up ignorant about beleiving in God. I just think the problem is when you think you know what your God's plan is for other people.
Well it's ignorance if you can't come up with a legit reason for believing it I.E. Faith.

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
Somehow, I think every religion is a little bit correct (but mostly wrong). I believe every religion has figured something useful out about nature/god.
Yeah, that he conviniently seems to favor them. I would be interested in hearing what you think these useful truths are. (Really, I am.)

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
But I do not think it is an absolute necessity to know God. I think it's farrr more important to know yourself. Sometimes we can be a bigger mystery than anything around us.
Certainly, I agree 100%.

Originally posted by Da Pittman
This is what my wife believes.

That settles it then.

I believe man created god/s during evolution

Originally posted by queeq
That settles it then. At least in my corner of the world, got to keep the wife happy.

Originally posted by anaconda
I believe man created god/s during evolution

That would explain why god looks like us.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
That would explain why god looks like us.

Okay, pretend the God of Christians exists...


What if God actually looked closer to our evolutionary ancestors? prominent eyebrow ridges, longer arms, hairier, etc. hmm

Originally posted by dadudemon
Okay, pretend the God of Christians exists...


What if God actually looked closer to our evolutionary ancestors? prominent eyebrow ridges, longer arms, hairier, etc. hmm

Then this god would not be a god.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Then this god would not be a god.

He could still be a God of matter...but I was thinking that if this were true, it would shatter the Western European idea that they have of God. That was my angle.

Originally posted by dadudemon
He could still be a God of matter...but I was thinking that if this were true, it would shatter the Western European idea that they have of God. That was my angle.

You are correct, that would shatter a lot of peoples ideas.

This is the image of god that I like best:

http://www.skierpage.com/images/southparkgod.jpg

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
You are correct, that would shatter a lot of peoples ideas.

This is the image of god that I like best:

http://www.skierpage.com/images/southparkgod.jpg

LOL!

One of the funniest sayings I have ever heard was when God from Southpark said "Goddamnit Satan!".

I never understood the question: what does God look like? God can take any form he wants. The only reason everyone calls him "he" is that the ancient world was so into misogyny that coming down as a man was the best way to get people's attention. God can be a man, woman, man-bear-pig, talking rock, etc. That South Park image is hilarious because it would serve some people right if God chose to come to them that way when they've been picturing the classic robed, old man image.

Going back to someone asking what if he had a neanderthal-type appearance, my guess is that Jesus at least looked like an every day guy back then, meaning he would be average in that time period's weight, height, eye color, hair color, skin tone... Most paintings of him were done by medieval and Renaissance artists who European-ized his hair and features and probably covered more of his body than what was really the case.

Originally posted by willofthewisp
Going back to someone asking what if he had a neanderthal-type appearance, my guess is that Jesus at least looked like an every day guy back then, meaning he would be average in that time period's weight, height, eye color, hair color, skin tone... Most paintings of him were done by medieval and Renaissance artists who European-ized his hair and features and probably covered more of his body than what was really the case.

Agreed. Though he may have been handsome because Mary was supposedly a very fair lady.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Agreed. Though he may have been handsome because Mary was supposedly a very fair lady.


But how many beautiful women have you seen with ugly men?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
But how many beautiful women have you seen with ugly men?

I have seen beautiful children as the offspring of very ugly parents. "Dani" comes to mind. She was one of the hottest women I have ever seen. Her parents were rather plain...ugly actually. I couldn't believe that their offspring were so pretty. ("Dani" had a little sister who was gorgeous as well.)

But, I was thinking that Joseph couldn't have ruined the "pretty" genes too much...

Making Mary beautiful may have also been another propaganda mechanism to further the idea of being born of a pure virgin. I would like to think she was a pretty lady, though. hmm

Originally posted by dadudemon
I have seen beautiful children as the offspring of very ugly parents. "Dani" comes to mind. She was one of the hottest women I have ever seen. Her parents were rather plain...ugly actually. I couldn't believe that their offspring were so pretty. ("Dani" had a little sister who was gorgeous as well.)

But, I was thinking that Joseph couldn't have ruined the "pretty" genes too much...

Making Mary beautiful may have also been another propaganda mechanism to further the idea of being born of a pure virgin. I would like to think she was a pretty lady, though. hmm

Propaganda? Christians would never do that.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Making Mary beautiful may have also been another propaganda mechanism to further the idea of being born of a pure virgin. I would like to think she was a pretty lady, though. hmm Hopefully she didn't look like your new avatar, God willing. Or is that what happened to that fine lass after she finished that j?

Originally posted by Mindship
Hopefully she didn't look like your new avatar, God willing. Or is that what happened to that fine lass after she finished that j?



That would explain the vergin thing.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Propaganda? Christians would never do that.

I have no idea what you are talking about. whistling

Originally posted by Mindship
Hopefully she didn't look like your new avatar, God willing. Or is that what happened to that fine lass after she finished that j?



It took me a bit...but now I follow what you meant by "j". You mean the Alyssa Milano look-a-like smoking that big ass joint in my signature.

Originally posted by dadudemon
You mean the Alyssa Milano look-a-like smoking that big ass joint in my signature. If that doesn't bring her enlightenment, nothing will.

"But how many beautiful women have you seen with ugly men?"----Shaky

Well, there is Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt, imo. Lol. Charlize Theron's husband is a little too girly for my taste, and even though Pamela Anderson's not really that pretty, she's with Tommy Lee and Kid Rock and they are just hideous.

But you were talking about offspring? My guess is Mary was average looking. I'd love to know a description of her, but I think she was picked because of her faith rather than her looks.

Originally posted by willofthewisp
"But how many beautiful women have you seen with ugly men?"----Shaky

Well, there is Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt, imo. Lol. Charlize Theron's husband is a little too girly for my taste, and even though Pamela Anderson's not really that pretty, she's with Tommy Lee and Kid Rock and they are just hideous.

But you were talking about offspring? My guess is Mary was average looking. I'd love to know a description of her, but I think she was picked because of her faith rather than her looks. Tommy though is hung like a horse, who needs looks

Had to be something keeping Pam around... It's definitely not the looks or the conversation.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
But how many beautiful women have you seen with ugly men?

More than I'd like, to be honest. Nothing is more depressing and simultaneously baffling than seeing some fine woman with an ugly/nerdy-ass fool. Because it means that you actually had a chance.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
More than I'd like, to be honest. Nothing is more depressing and simultaneously baffling than seeing some fine woman with an ugly/nerdy-ass fool. Because it means that you actually had a chance. thats cold man. puttin the lil nerds down like me. thats low dude. low

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
More than I'd like, to be honest. Nothing is more depressing and simultaneously baffling than seeing some fine woman with an ugly/nerdy-ass fool. Because it means that you actually had a chance.

Do you mean to say that hindsight allows you to reconsider the outcome of your present choices?

Originally posted by Devil King
Do you mean to say that hindsight allows you to reconsider the outcome of your present choices?

I didn't mean it that way, but I suppose that's one way to look at it.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
More than I'd like, to be honest. Nothing is more depressing and simultaneously baffling than seeing some fine woman with an ugly/nerdy-ass fool. Because it means that you actually had a chance.

Wow...that is a really pessimistic point of view.

What that meant to me is I had a chance.



Also, if all else fails...there is always rape. Rape don't cost a thang, either.

Originally posted by dadudemon

Also, if all else fails...there is always rape. Rape don't cost a thang, either.

........

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
........

Use roofies if it makes you feel better. JEEZ Mr. softy.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
I didn't mean it that way, but I suppose that's one way to look at it.

And I didn't think you did. I doubt there's much that would make you reconsider the choices you've made when it comes to your family. But that certainty isn't exclusive to you, or anyone else that is happy with their choices.