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Setting: Bespin carbonite room.

Darth Vader possesses a greater connection to the Force, greater experience and longer instruction in the dark side of the Force, and has spent the vast majority of his Imperial career personally executing futigive and renegade Jedi. He is also the master of an apprentice who is powerful enough to rip out an Imperial-class Star Destroyer from a high altitude and drag it across the ground, and lastly, he possesses a greater physical strength and a lightsaber to counter Darth Malak's Force lightning.

However Escape, Malak showed impressive force drain, force choke, and whirlwind abilities and it is unlikely Vader knows any of the three.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
However Escape, Malak showed impressive force drain, force choke, and whirlwind abilities and it is unlikely Vader knows any of the three.

Pardon? Darth Vader doesn't know Force choke? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it his signature move?

ERRRR... I just forgot the entire SW Saga for a minute, thanks for the correction. The other two then.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
ERRRR... I just forgot the entire SW Saga for a minute, thanks for the correction. The other two then.

No problem.

Out of curiosity, are the Force powers in the KotOR series considered to be actual manifestations? Is there truly a "Force whirlwind" attack or is it aggrandized telekinesis? And, do the aforementioned demonstrations of Malak's power occur when he is being enhanced by the Star Forge?

Originally posted by Gideon
And, do the aforementioned demonstrations of Malak's power occur when he is being enhanced by the Star Forge?

True, but (other than using the semi-dead Jedi's energy) in what other aspects does the Star Forge benefit Malak?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
However Escape, Malak showed impressive force drain, force choke, and whirlwind abilities and it is unlikely Vader knows any of the three. Didn't he force drain captive jedi whom were unconscious? And what does it mean if he does not know 2 of the abilities malak has? That he is inferior to malak?

Has malak shown the ability to choke an opponent lightyears away as vader did to xizor in the bounty hunter wars?

Originally posted by Ivalice
Didn't he force drain captive jedi whom were unconscious? And what does it mean if he does not know 2 of the abilities malak has? That he is inferior to malak?

Has malak shown the ability to choke an opponent lightyears away as vader did to xizor in the bounty hunter wars?

I think DS is trying to say that Malak might know more offensive force powers.

Originally posted by Gideon
He is also the master of an apprentice who is powerful enough to rip out an Imperial-class Star Destroyer from a high altitude and drag it across the ground.
How exactly would that matter in this fight? From what I read there is a possibility that Vader might being using some device on the apprentice's wrist to control him. I don't think it is wise to list being master of the apprentice yet until we know there relationship in regard to that rumor as a feat for Vader just yet.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
I think DS is trying to say that Malak might know more offensive force powers. Vader himself has demonstrated 2 techniques that malak has not demonstrated and it compensates. Force crush and force wave.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter

How exactly would that matter in this fight? From what I read there is a possibility that Vader might being using some device on the apprentice's wrist to control him. That is pure speculation from gamespot.

Force wave is a more advanced version of force push. To answer your question Escape, I don't know if the force whirlweed is aggrandized telekinesis. Nor do I know if Malak is being powered by the SF while doing this. It is possible yes, but there's no real evidence of that.

It has been forever since I have had the wonderful experience of playing KotOR. Was Malak on the Star Forge when he used such attacks?

Originally posted by Gideon
It has been forever since I have had the wonderful experience of playing KotOR. Was Malak on the Star Forge when he used such attacks? According to sw legend force whirlwind is a feat listed in malaks profile and he demonstrated this technique in the leviathan.

Originally posted by Ivalice
That is pure speculation from gamespot.
Speculation yes, but something to not completely disregard until TFU comes out. Which is one of the reason why I like I said before, I don't feel mentioning Vader as the S.A.'s master (and his star destroyer feat) shouldn't be considered a feat for Vader like it seemed Gideon was implying until the novel and game come out.

I wasn't aware of such speculation, so I will retract it. That said, Vader is training his Apprentice to adhere to Sith principles, where the strongest rule.

The speculation I believe came from a picture in which the apprentice had electricity all over his right arm and it appears to enter the right side of his face. So let's just leave it at speculation for now and get back on topic.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Image:FUMiniatures.jpg

No problem.

Just for reference, anything demonstrated by Darth Malak aboard the Star Forge is subject to scrutiny.

http://www.wizards.com/default.aspx=starwars/article/sw20031009malak

I have pointed out a few things regarding Malak below:

Known Force abilities:

1) TK
2) Mind Dominate
3) Stasis Field
4) Force Lightning
5) Chain Lightning
6) Force Whirlwind
7) Force Choke
8) Drain Life
9) Stasis Field
10) Force Fear
11) Force Defense
12) Burst of Speed

NOTE: The full extent of Malak's Force knowledge is unknown.

Body Armor:

Than Malak wears an armor that is capable of protecting him from Light Saber attacks at certain angles. For example: Bastilla Shan threw her Light Saber at Malak on the Leviathan and it got deflected by Malak's armor.

Light Saber and dueling abilities:

Malak was among the most skilled swordsmen of his age.

Though only a young man, his skill in battle and prowess with the lightsaber had already earned him renown within the Order. (KOTOR Game official website)

According to Drew! he used Juyo form, when he became a Sith Lord.

And it should be noted that Malak used a Light Saber, that was bigger in length than the standard ones, thus giving him higher chances to hit his opponents.

General:

Additionally! Malak demonstrated Force Whirlwind on Leviathan, trapping Revan in it.

And it should be noted that 3 powerful and skilled warriors (Carth Onasi, Bastilla Shan and Revan) were unable to overcome Darth Malak on the Leviathan, which shows that Malak is a highly capable warrior even without the aid of Star Forge.

Also, Malak was Force choking two Jedi warriors simultaneously without even lifting a finger, on the Star Forge and he performed this feat without the help of any external source

And finally! Vader - Though a master of the dark side, is still highly vulnerable to Force abilities such as: Force Lightning, Force Whirlwind and Force Drain.

Originally posted by Gideon
He is also the master of an apprentice who is powerful enough to rip out an Imperial-class Star Destroyer from a high altitude and drag it across the ground, and lastly, he possesses a greater physical strength and a lightsaber to counter Darth Malak's Force lightning.

Vader's apprentice:
1. We don't know that he ripped that Star destroyer down to the ground. Mebbe he controlled the minds of the pilots, mebbe he used the force to destroy the engines or something like that.

2. Even if he did, video game feats have to be put back into context. For instance: can we call Jaden Korr stronger than Marka Ragnos because he defeated him on Korriban? I don't think so. For that matter, one of SEVERAL Jedi can defeat Darth Maul, if you take "Jedi Power Battles" seriously. So we can't do that. Video games, cartoons, and comics all have to be put in context of the original movies, or it ruins everything. We can say Yoda is the most powerful force user of all time, bar none, not even close, if we consider him picking up that fleet of seperatist ships and sending them back into space like he did.

Allow me to address a few points legend.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I have pointed out a few things regarding Malak below:



Body Armor:

Than Malak wears an armor that is capable of protecting him from Light Saber attacks at certain angles. For example: Bastilla Shan threw her Light Saber at Malak on the Leviathan and it got deflected by Malak's armor. This is where you will have to prove up that malaks armor is saber resistant, Find an actual statement other than your own assumptions and speculations because i can simply argue that he was wounded but chose to engage bastila in a fight.


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Light Saber and dueling abilities:

Malak was among the most skilled swordsmen of his age.

Though only a young man, his skill in battle and prowess with the lightsaber had already earned him renown within the Order. (KOTOR Game official website)

According to Drew! he used Juyo form, when he became a Sith Lord.

And it should be noted that Malak used a Light Saber, that was bigger in length than the standard ones, thus giving him higher chances to hit his opponents. Ok, so was vader who demonstrated incredible saber feats such as slaughtering an entire platoon of storm troopers who turned on him right before the officer in charge could even run to the door.

And using the force to do telekenetical lightsaber combat when he killed 6 storm troopers with one swipe of his lightsaber.

And this quote here from wookiepedia(which is backed up by shadows of the empire)

Around 3.5 ABY, Vader had ordered ASP-19 droids, lightsaber combat droids based on the ASP-series droid, to be produced to fight him in sparring matches. They were faster and stronger than an ordinary man, and programmed with the knowledge of a hundred sword masters and a dozen fighting styles. Vader defeated them time and again, and thus ordered new, improved batches of them. As his finesse improved, they became too easy to defeat, even in a two-on-one match.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Additionally! Malak demonstrated Force Whirlwind on Leviathan, trapping Revan in it. So? Force attacks work on any one, even the strongest force users if you don't even attempt to resist or put up a defence.

Ok, lets put it that malak can trap vader in his whirlwind, but what is there to say that vader can't unleash an even more devastating attack on malak? Such as a force wave which can send an opponent flying back so fast that the moment the thug crashed the wall, it would be safe to assume it breaks every bone in his body(Empire betrayals
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

And it should be noted that 3 powerful and skilled warriors (Carth Onasi, Bastilla Shan and Revan) were unable to overcome Darth Malak on the Leviathan, which shows that Malak is a highly capable warrior even without the aid of Star Forge. Onasi is a non force user, bastila is a weakling when compared to malak or vader and revan, well thats the only feat i give credit to malak.

Nobody is denying that malak is a very good warrior but you have to acknowledge the fact that vader is also a very capable warrior and perhaps even greater than malak.


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Also, Malak was Force choking two Jedi warriors simultaneously without even lifting a finger, on the Star Forge and he performed this feat without the help of any external source While being empowered by the star forge? Vader was shown to suspend 10 wild dogs half his size in the air and instantly break all their necks without any effort.

Also vader has choked xizor millions of lightyears in the bounty hunter wars but failed because emperor palpatine had stopped him from doing so.

And there is another feat of vader where he could send his opponent(tark) into the air with TK smashing him hard enough in the star destroyer interior until it causes a massive dent

Or vader catching a bolt fired by a storm trooper and channels raw force energy into it and sends it flying back at the stormtrooper with enough force and power to completely rip his head off.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

And finally! Vader - Though a master of the dark side, is still highly vulnerable to Force abilities such as: Force Lightning, Force Whirlwind and Force Drain. Ok, as for lightning vader has a lightsaber, as for force drain there is no proof that it would even kill him instantly or harm him as malak only demonstrated it on captive jedi which were in stasis while being empowered by the starforge.

And any jedi are vulnerable to tk based attacks, even malak would be vulnerable to vaders superior TK.

Acutally the apprentice brings down the SD with TK. I heard it on one of the TUF videos around. And they have basically said that no one has ever used the force like the SA, he's Vader's ultimate experiment with the force.

Originally posted by Ivalice
This is where you will have to prove up that malaks armor is saber resistant, Find an actual statement other than your own assumptions and speculations because i can simply argue that he was wounded but chose to engage bastila in a fight.
And the wounded Malak easily tooled Bastilla Shan?

It is 100% clear from the cutscene in the KOTOR that the Bastilla's Light Saber got deflected by Malak's armor actually.

Now what do you think would have happened, if the Light Saber had penetrated Malak's armor? Would he be still active enough to charge towards Bastilla Shan?

From the G-canon sources, it is already clear that even a single cut from the Light Saber can immobilize a Jedi. Consider AOTC movie as an example.

Originally posted by Ivalice
Ok, so was vader who demonstrated incredible saber feats such as slaughtering an entire platoon of storm troopers who turned on him right before the officer in charge could even run to the door.

And using the force to do telekenetical lightsaber combat when he killed 6 storm troopers with one swipe of his lightsaber.

And this quote here from wookiepedia(which is backed up by shadows of the empire)

Around 3.5 ABY, Vader had ordered ASP-19 droids, lightsaber combat droids based on the ASP-series droid, to be produced to fight him in sparring matches. They were faster and stronger than an ordinary man, and programmed with the knowledge of a hundred sword masters and a dozen fighting styles. Vader defeated them time and again, and thus ordered new, improved batches of them. As his finesse improved, they became too easy to defeat, even in a two-on-one match.
I know that Vader is good with the saber. So what is the point of raising this issue?

And Malak is also capable of using the force to perform telekinetical strikes with his Light Saber. He has demonstrated this ability in a cutscene of the KOTOR, killing a Jedi in the process.

And not to forget that his Light Saber is bigger than the standard ones, which is also an advantage.

Originally posted by Ivalice
So? Force attacks work on any one, even the strongest force users if you don't even attempt to resist or put up a defence.

Ok, lets put it that malak can trap vader in his whirlwind, but what is there to say that vader can't unleash an even more devastating attack on malak? Such as a force wave which can send an opponent flying back so fast that the moment the thug crashed the wall, it would be safe to assume it breaks every bone in his body(Empire betrayals
I have said before and I will say it again, that both these Sith Lords are capable enough to harm each other with the Force.


And unlike that thug, Malak is a powerful Force user, who can defend himself against several kinds of Force attacks.

Originally posted by Ivalice
Onasi is a non force user, bastila is a weakling when compared to malak or vader and revan, well thats the only feat i give credit to malak.
Onasi relies on guns to fight his enemies and his skills as a soldier are exceptional. He managed to fire on Malak within a couple of seconds with both of his guns, which is impressive. But Malak was so skilled that he easily deflected his fire from his Light Saber and Force stunned him, within 3 seconds.

Bastilla Shan might not be among the elite, but she was still among the best of her age. I have yet to see a single source, in which it has been stated that Bastilla Shan was not a capable fighter.

And add Revan in to the equation, you get 3 vs 1 scenario, which is unfair in logical sense, but Malak still won without the aid of any external help.

Originally posted by Ivalice
Nobody is denying that malak is a very good warrior but you have to acknowledge the fact that vader is also a very capable warrior and perhaps even greater than malak.
Greater than Malak in some regards is more correct term. A Sith Lord, who is capable of unleashing powerful force attacks and control a huge artifact like Star Forge, cannot be any less of a warrior than Vader.

Originally posted by Ivalice
While being empowered by the star forge? Vader was shown to suspend 10 wild dogs half his size in the air and instantly break all their necks without any effort.
What empowerment do you speak of? I have told you before that it was only in the final battle, that he used the Star Forge for aid. Before that, there was no such external help and he relied on his own skills.

You want to see an example of Star Forge directly empowering a Sith? Than keep in mind, the Bastilla Shan vs Revan encounter on the Star Forge.

Originally posted by Ivalice
Also vader has choked xizor millions of lightyears in the bounty hunter wars but failed because emperor palpatine had stopped him from doing so.

And there is another feat of vader where he could send his opponent(tark) into the air with TK smashing him hard enough in the star destroyer interior until it causes a massive dent

Or vader catching a bolt fired by a storm trooper and channels raw force energy into it and sends it flying back at the stormtrooper with enough force and power to completely rip his head off.
I have always praised OT Vader's skill with the Force. Hence, I used the term "although a master of the dark side."

Originally posted by Ivalice
Ok, as for lightning vader has a lightsaber, as for force drain there is no proof that it would even kill him instantly or harm him as malak only demonstrated it on captive jedi which were in stasis while being empowered by the starforge.
What Drain will do, is weaken Vader gradually during the duel by sucking his energy out. And Malak would be feeding on those energies as a result, which will help him in remaining active and not tire out, like Dooku did.

And Light Saber is not always useful for blocking very powerful Force Lightning attacks.

Originally posted by Ivalice
And any jedi are vulnerable to tk based attacks, even malak would be vulnerable to vaders superior TK.
Yes! Both Malak and Vader are vulnerable to TK attacks.

And my conclusion is that both these Sith Lords are a big threat to each other.

Where was this from Ivalice?

Had no choice but to drag it out of wookie.

The thing is, both characters are extremely unique in their sense of fighting techniques. Malak is an assassin, which uses the force to strike from the shadows, and take his enemy by suprise (as proven at the betrayal of Revan). However, Darth Vadar is an extremely blunt type of fighter- he's one that would prefer to charge in head first with force powers to cripple his enemies. Really, the only thing that would make a difference between one wining and one losing is chance:
If Malak was able to sneak up upon Vadar, then I would say Malak would win.
If Vadar had Malak in his sights, Vadar would win.
As I said it's all about chance.

Malak is not an assassin and the fact that he took Revan by surprise (because of the jedi strike team) does not support the idea that he is an assassin all he did was take advantage of the situation.

Originally posted by sanque
The thing is, both characters are extremely unique in their sense of fighting techniques. Malak is an assassin, which uses the force to strike from the shadows, and take his enemy by suprise (as proven at the betrayal of Revan). However, Darth Vadar is an extremely blunt type of fighter- he's one that would prefer to charge in head first with force powers to cripple his enemies. Really, the only thing that would make a difference between one wining and one losing is chance:
If Malak was able to sneak up upon Vadar, then I would say Malak would win.
If Vadar had Malak in his sights, Vadar would win.
As I said it's all about chance. 'Kay, I'd like to know which version of KotOR you play. Malak is a 7 foot tall monster. Brutal and efficient is how HK-47 desribed him. No assassin would obliterate a planet from orbit, something Malak's quite proficient at. He's no assassin, just a backstabber (i.e. a Sith).

IMHO

vader force chokes malak to his knees in agony then beheads him EASILY>

COMPARED TO SITH LIKE VADER AND SIDDIOUS, MALAK AND REVAN WERE CHUMPCHANGE!!!

Originally posted by Man of Christ
IMHO

vader force chokes malak to his knees in agony then beheads him EASILY>

COMPARED TO SITH LIKE VADER AND SIDDIOUS, MALAK AND REVAN WERE CHUMPCHANGE!!! 'Cuz you know, Malak would easily be Force-choked. And there's no way in Hell his lightning would do anything to Vader's incredibly durable system.

Does Malak even have a throat? 'Cuz if he doesn't then Force chokes kind of a waste of time. Damn, If only I remember what he looks like without his metal jaw.

Last time I check he does have one.

Originally posted by Tangible God
'Cuz you know, Malak would easily be Force-choked. And there's no way in Hell his lightning would do anything to Vader's incredibly durable system.

true seeing as how vader was trained by siddious who had a way more rigorous training style and was the most powerful sith in history of whom vader was about 80% as powerful.

but getting to the points

1) vader can choke malak without lifting a finger so malak wont be aware of it until it's too late

2) i think after 20 years of sith training vader knows how to counter lightening (with his saber possibly)

3) malak is less likely (from seeing him work in the game) to use lightning as oppose to whipping out his blade and trying to batter his opposition down.

this strategy wont work against vader as he can do what he did to luke in ESB which is take the force and fling things at malak, knocking off his jaw and embrasing him then beheading him.

Originally posted by Man of Christ
true seeing as how vader was trained by siddious who had a way more rigorous training style and was the most powerful sith in history of whom vader was about 80% as powerful.

but getting to the points

1) vader can choke malak without lifting a finger so malak wont be aware of it until it's too late

2) i think after 20 years of sith training vader knows how to counter lightening (with his saber possibly)

3) malak is less likely (from seeing him work in the game) to use lightning as oppose to whipping out his blade and trying to batter his opposition down.

this strategy wont work against vader as he can do what he did to luke in ESB which is take the force and fling things at malak, knocking off his jaw and embrasing him then beheading him. True, Malak's a brute. Unless he notices how frail Vader's system might be, he'll likely go charging in and get done out by Vader. But I don't think the Choke would be as effective as you think. I feel pretty confident in giving Malak a chance that he can dissipate the effect.

Correct, a mere choke won't simply kill malak that easily because it takes time to actually kill so vader would actually need to start using devastating attacks like force crush and TK.

Or stun him with the choke then rush him with his saber. I just think that with Vader's training and accolades, he'd be too much for Malak.

Likely. Vader feels like he has more patience, use Malak's jackassary against him.

No you don't.

That won't work too well against Malak. He's already fallen. Most he could do is try to distract him, but as he doesn't know anything about Malak's personal life, Dun Moch won't work well against a Sith Lord.

Dun Moch could even potentially hurt him against another sith lord like Malak and only make him tap into the dark side even more (as Luke did vs Vader) and as Tangible God said, Vader knows nothing personal about Malak so it would more likely hurt Vader to try and break Malak's will rather than concentrating on outdueling Malak.

Which is why vader wouldn't be foolish enough to attempt to use don moch against some one he doesn't know as would proceed to actually destroy his opponent.

I don't see how you sneak up on a force-sensitive. Especially one of Vader's caliber, so that theory is out. If Malak was attempting to defeat Vader and Vader was merely shrugging off his attacks, he could throw that in his face and talk shit and it would likely piss Malak off, as Sith are usually pretty hotheaded. If you want to call that Don Moch, then so be it, but i think it could be useful in that scenario.

Vader would annihilate Malak

Ok, i read all of Vader wookieepedia page, and i am not sure if this is right because my statement is based from it so plz excuse any errors: Vader fought with one hand for offense, two for defence. He had to use his tk to hurl objects at his opponents because his suit made him a very clumsy fighter because it hampered him so much. So, if Malak could stop the objects, then he may be able to kill Vader. Malak is also a very good lightsaber duelist, as is obvious on the Star Forge, which only HEALS sith, not amplifies their powers, as is shown in the Shan and Revan fight, Shan truly wanted to kill him. Revan was holding back, but thats off topic. Vader is very powerful in the force, (possibly being a pure creation of the force) and a clumsy fighter, but his style has been suited to his suit, so he wields a personal style, but must rely on tk to effectivly fight. Malak does not have such restrictions. I think Malak would be near death but come out the winner.


by the tl objects hurling comes from episode V, when he fights luke and throws stuff at him the whole time.

Vader a clumsy fighter? I see him beating malak, first off vader casually disabled and choked a jedi that tore part of a frickin space station apart and he nearly killed galen marek(who wernt toe to toe and beat vaders ass) in their final battle when he seized a massive telekinetic storm.

We also have vader crushing a massive hut that was described to be as durable as steel and we see vader destroying massive barriers in the TFU's scripted gameplay. Vader is also able to telekinetically suspend an entire pack of wild dogs and simultaneously killing then with one force attack

Vader is no slouch in the saber as well seeing that he, for a while at least was able to go head to head with darth maul in a pure saber duel, right before maul getting his light saber snapped apart and then wielding jar kai which vader isn't so great defending against, especially against darth maul, one of the deadliest sith apprentices in history.

And then in empire betrayel we see vader using the force to bend dozens of laser bolts fired at him in a different direction and even using the force to reflect a single bolt with enough energy to decapitate a storm trooper's head completely.

I don't see malak surviving this duel but i didn't say vader easily beats him either.

But don't use that logic where, "oh vaders opponents dont have his restrictions, so therefore they will win" sorta thing because if thats the case then every other force user, padawan, neophyte would beat vader as well.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
I don't see how you sneak up on a force-sensitive. Especially one of Vader's caliber, so that theory is out.

Easily, by closing your presence in the Force down shown by Ben, Jacen and Luke in LOTF. Though it doesnt show anywhere Malak can do this.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
Vader a clumsy fighter? I see him beating malak, first off vader casually disabled and choked a jedi that tore part of a frickin space station apart and he nearly killed galen marek(who wernt toe to toe and beat vaders ass) in their final battle when he seized a massive telekinetic storm.

We also have vader crushing a massive hut that was described to be as durable as steel and we see vader destroying massive barriers in the TFU's scripted gameplay. Vader is also able to telekinetically suspend an entire pack of wild dogs and simultaneously killing then with one force attack

Vader is no slouch in the saber as well seeing that he, for a while at least was able to go head to head with darth maul in a pure saber duel, right before maul getting his light saber snapped apart and then wielding jar kai which vader isn't so great defending against, especially against darth maul, one of the deadliest sith apprentices in history.

And then in empire betrayel we see vader using the force to bend dozens of laser bolts fired at him in a different direction and even using the force to reflect a single bolt with enough energy to decapitate a storm trooper's head completely.

I don't see malak surviving this duel but i didn't say vader easily beats him either.

But don't use that logic where, "oh vaders opponents dont have his restrictions, so therefore they will win" sorta thing because if thats the case then every other force user, padawan, neophyte would beat vader as well.


by clumsy i mean he cant weild ANY regular forms, because of his suit, so he had to develop his own version of Shien/Djem So with Soresu and Ataru in it. But he cant do a lot of acrobatic crap. I still think Malak would win. Ph, and btw that blaster bolt stuff is FORCE, not lightsaber, i was talking about his lightsaber fighting, in which he is more on the clumsy than fluid side.

Originally posted by Incanus
by clumsy i mean he cant weild ANY regular forms, because of his suit, so he had to develop his own version of Shien/Djem So with Soresu and Ataru in it. But he cant do a lot of acrobatic crap. I still think Malak would win. Ph, and btw that blaster bolt stuff is FORCE, not lightsaber, i was talking about his lightsaber fighting, in which he is more on the clumsy than fluid side. Cant do acrobatic stuff? Read crimson empire then, it shows a very acrobatic vader.

Or hell read rise of darth vader, his moves were described as fast, quick and acrobatic. It even states that his light saber style is unpredictable and that threw the number of jedi he duled off balance so that gives him an edge against malak in a pure saber duel.

Then again vader was able to keep up to darth maul , an incredibly skilled lightsaber duelist(that defeated anoon bondara i think whose saber skills were second to none at that time) at least until darth mauls lightsaber was broken in half and used jar kai which vader isn't that good at countering.

Now, exactly how good is malaks lightsaber skills? As far as we know it is virtually unknown just how good he really is and there is nothing to prove that he is even on par with vader as far as saber skills go.

Prove malak would win or simply concede.

Sorry but vader > malak in force and saber.

ok, Vader made HIS OWN STYLE. He included mostly Shien and Djem So, but had the not as acrobatic Ataru and Soresu moves in it, because he was not able to use them traditions forms traditionally. Suit wouldnt let him.



As for Malak he was a jedi guardian, those that focus on lightsaber combat. He was also a sith sorceror, whos to say he wouldnt make Vader see Padme or Shmi more likely and drive him insane? Zannah did that to Cyndra with sith sorcery, and 1 on 1 fight and Malak can use it, Vader would be screwed if he was insane and fighting imaginary demons and not Malak.

Originally posted by Incanus
ok, Vader made HIS OWN STYLE. He included mostly Shien and Djem So, but had the not as acrobatic Ataru and Soresu moves in it, because he was not able to use them traditions forms traditionally. Suit wouldnt let him.
Your are starting to get on nerves, i have proven you WRONG that vader CAN move acrobatically but you simply refuse to shut up and listen and you choose to make yourself look more of a dumbass than you already are.

Being quick and acrobatic isn't dependent on the style but rather the user or practitionar.

But then again SO WHAT if vader can't fight and do acrobatic stuff? HOW does that show that his lightsaber skills isn't good at all which you are implying? Would you kindly prove up or shut the hell up?

READ CRIMSON EMPIRE and RISE OF DARTH VADER which SHOWS vaders ability to fight with ACROBATIC stunts.

Oh, and STOP being an idiot.

Originally posted by Incanus

As for Malak he was a jedi guardian, those that focus on lightsaber combat.
HOW is that an indicator on skill? HOW good is he exactly? Quantify, substantiate, prove up or shut up.

Originally posted by Incanus
He was also a sith sorceror, whos to say he wouldnt make Vader see Padme or Shmi more likely and drive him insane?
Even if he could(which you cant prove he can) how exactly is that going to drive vader insane when it would probably make him more angry and more motivated to kill malak?

And secondly, does malak even know who padme or shmi is? STOP pulling things out of your ass and for gods sake remove your head from your arse.

Originally posted by Incanus
Zannah did that to Cyndra with sith sorcery, and 1 on 1 fight and Malak can use it, Vader would be screwed if he was insane and fighting imaginary demons and not Malak. Right, zannah did it to a NON FORCE USER, so there fore with your half braincells, its going to work on an incerdibly powerful sith lord.

Great for logic! If thats the case vader would be able to choke malak millions of light years away seeing that vader did it to xizor easily in the bounty hunter wars.


I pretty much listed some of vaders strongest feats and yet you, like a fanboy in denial still choose to argue and make yourself look extremely stupid.

Its pretty obvious your a hardcore malak fanboy pulling things out of your ass and trying to use them for a debate. My advice is look at the facts, ACCEPT it, take your hand of your cock, stop jerking infront of malaks wallpaper and shut the hell up.

Wow. Wolverine is dominating Incanus.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
Your are starting to get on nerves, i have proven you WRONG that vader CAN move acrobatically but you simply refuse to shut up and listen and you choose to make yourself look more of a dumbass than you already are.

Being quick and acrobatic isn't dependent on the style but rather the user or practitionar.

But then again SO WHAT if vader can't fight and do acrobatic stuff? HOW does that show that his lightsaber skills isn't good at all which you are implying? Would you kindly prove up or shut the hell up?

READ CRIMSON EMPIRE and RISE OF DARTH VADER which SHOWS vaders ability to fight with ACROBATIC stunts.

Oh, and STOP being an idiot.

HOW is that an indicator on skill? HOW good is he exactly? Quantify, substantiate, prove up or shut up.

Even if he could(which you cant prove he can) how exactly is that going to drive vader insane when it would probably make him more angry and more motivated to kill malak?

And secondly, does malak even know who padme or shmi is? STOP pulling things out of your ass and for gods sake remove your head from your arse.

Right, zannah did it to a NON FORCE USER, so there fore with your half braincells, its going to work on an incerdibly powerful sith lord.

Great for logic! If thats the case vader would be able to choke malak millions of light years away seeing that vader did it to xizor easily in the bounty hunter wars.


I pretty much listed some of vaders strongest feats and yet you, like a fanboy in denial still choose to argue and make yourself look extremely stupid.

Its pretty obvious your a hardcore malak fanboy pulling things out of your ass and trying to use them for a debate. My advice is look at the facts, ACCEPT it, take your hand of your cock, stop jerking infront of malaks wallpaper and shut the hell up.

remember to stay calm. getting mad will only get you banned.

Yeah your right...

Damn it. And I was just beginning to feel your anger. It was making me powerful, giving me focus. *sigh* Now all I have left is my enormous genitals.

o.o

Ok, fo rone thing, i hate Malak, he is just a plain *****. And second, jedi guardians DID NOT HAVE to be exceptional lightsaber DUELISTS, they were just good at fighting. THIRD, I f you bothered to read Darth BAne:Rule of Two, you would know that the terrors inspired from Sith Sorcery DO NOT HAVE TO BE KNOWN TO THE CASTER. The caster plunges into their victims mind and tears their deepest and darkest fears from their head, and make them think they are seeing them, so Malak DOSNT HAVE TO KNOW ABOUT SHMI OR PADME. VADER DOES, AND HE DOES. And it MAY work on Vader, no one has tried it. Obviously, you cant stop staring at Vader. And do you know how acrobatic Ataru IS? Yoda fights with it, AND HE IS ALWAYS JUMPING!!!!! I dont htink would be able to maintain that style for long. And yes, Malak IS suceptible to Force Choke, he just know how to tell when people are trying to choke him. Malak is like Revan, being a virtual unknown guy. Both were jedi guardians WHICH FOCUS ON PERFECTING LIGHTSABER SKILLS. I fyou say a guy who spent around 20 years pperfecting lightsaber combat is NOT good, then you are very messed up in that small little brain of yours. And if a guy was swinging a lighsaber at imaginary demons, do YOU think he would focus on Malak, when he wants to kill the creations of his own cranium first? And Zannah probably did it to jedi to, it just dosnt say. Next youll be saying Vader would kill BANE. Even Sidious would have a hard time of that......

Originally posted by Incanus
Ok, fo rone thing, i hate Malak, he is just a plain *****. And second, jedi guardians DID NOT HAVE to be exceptional lightsaber DUELISTS,

Then why bring it out in the first place noob?

Originally posted by Incanus

they were just good at fighting. THIRD, I f you bothered to read Darth BAne:Rule of Two, you would know that the terrors inspired from Sith Sorcery DO NOT HAVE TO BE KNOWN TO THE CASTER. The caster plunges into their victims mind and tears their deepest and darkest fears from their head, and make them think they are seeing them, so Malak DOSNT HAVE TO KNOW ABOUT SHMI OR PADME. VADER DOES, AND HE DOES.
Point taken, but im still going to have fun destroying your arguments and posts.



Originally posted by Incanus

And it MAY work on Vader, no one has tried it.
Oh so it "may" work on vader, is there any proof at all? When was the last time a sith spell successfully worked on a powerful individual, hell even nomi sunrider could easily be immune and resist sith spells thus negating all of its effects.

Sorry hun but you lose again.

The star wars universe "MAY" also take place in a microscopic scale in lucas rectum, without evidence dont claim it.

Prove it will work on vader, or shut up.

Even if malak knew such techniques(which once again you cannot and will not prove), why didn't he use it on revan in a fight to the death hmmmmmm?

Originally posted by Incanus


Obviously, you cant stop staring at Vader.
lol


Originally posted by Incanus
And do you know how acrobatic Ataru IS? Yoda fights with it, AND HE IS ALWAYS JUMPING!!!!!
ZOMG THATS OWNAGE!!!!

You forget that obi wan wasn't jumping as much as yoda did in TPM when he utilized that saber form, hell even AOTC anakin wasn't jumping that much. So whats your point dumbass? That because vader cant jump it means he sucks ass in saber skills?

Another idiot score point for you.

Originally posted by Incanus

I dont htink would be able to maintain that style for long.
Read the above properly dick.

Originally posted by Incanus

And yes, Malak IS suceptible to Force Choke, he just know how to tell when people are trying to choke him.
Same can be said for vader.

Originally posted by Incanus

Malak is like Revan, being a virtual unknown guy. Both were jedi guardians WHICH FOCUS ON PERFECTING LIGHTSABER SKILLS.
Prove that its "perfecting lightsaber skills", again you ****ing moron even if that was the case, just HOW good is he is inconclusive.

And focusing on saber combat doesn't mean focusing on perfecting your saber skills.

Another idiot point for you.

Originally posted by Incanus


I fyou say a guy who spent around 20 years pperfecting lightsaber combat is NOT good, then you are very messed up in that small little brain of yours.
Just because you have been a jedi for 20 years doesn't mean your saber skills are ub3r.

Yoda was 800 years old yet he could barely break sidious saber defences when he has like what? 40-50 years experience?

Another idiot point for you.
Originally posted by Incanus

And if a guy was swinging a lighsaber at imaginary demons, do YOU think he would focus on Malak, when he wants to kill the creations of his own cranium first?
Well your the idiot that has yet to prove it will work on a powerful force user let alone prove malak knows this technique.

The stronger the force user, the stronger the resistance and defences.

Another idoit point for you!
Originally posted by Incanus


And Zannah probably did it to jedi to, it just dosnt say.
Stop pulling things out of your ass.

Starwars also "probably" takes place in lucas anus, but it just doesn't say.

No evidence to prove it? Then shut up!

Originally posted by Incanus
Next youll be saying Vader would kill BANE. Even Sidious would have a hard time of that...... Sidious as of dark empire would beat bane rather comfortably.

OWNED again.

That's probably going to get you warned or banned for bashing. Take it down a notch.

read this wookieepedia excerpt dude. About Malaks canonical powers and abilities. And dude, i said VADER and Bane, not Sidious and Bane, you just dont want to have to face the fact that the guy that you wish slept in your bed would die if faced by this guy, and die FAST.





Having been a Jedi Guardian, Darth Malak was a skilled lightsaber duelist. He spoke and comprehended several languages, including Basic and the Sith language. Contrasting his Sith Master Revan, Malak used brute force rather than strategy to defeat his enemies, as demonstrated when he ordered both the bombing of Telos IV and the destruction of Taris.

As a Jedi, Malak was known to have used the Force as a means of protection and for healing. When he was a Sith Lord, Malak could use the Force to choke more than one person at a time, demonstrating this ability to Revan when he simultaneously choked two Jedi that he had captured just before their final confrontation. Immediately after that, he also displayed his ability to throw his lightsaber, igniting and throwing it at one of the captured Jedi's chest, killing him. His strength with the Force enabled him to create a whirlwind of Force energy that would encircle his victim, and he could use the Force to create a stasis field which froze his enemies in place. Malak was also proficient in using the Force to augment his speed, and could also use it to supress the abilities of another Force-user. He could render himself virtually invulnerable to most Force powers for a limited amount of time, and could also use the Force to leap large distances in order to reach his enemyThe Dark Lord also could use the Force to amplify his screams, triggering shock waves that rippled through the Force. Malak could also use the Force to tap into his innermost fears, pain and hate, and convert them into intense anger, channeling it to increase his speed, strength, and ferocity. His connection to the dark side gave him the use of Dark Healing, an ability that fueled regenerative processes by draining the life force of another. He was also skilled in the use of Sith sorcery. During his time as a Sith, Malak was especially proficient in the use of Force lightning, which he continually used with ease while torturing Bastila Shan and while dueling his former Master for the last time.


So i add empahsis to some things, INVULNERABLE TO A FORCE USERS POWERS, SUPRESS ANOTHERS FORCE POWERS, DARK HEALING, AND STASIS FIELD.

Good god you lose so badly that your using WOOKIEPEDIA to back your arguments? You truly are a desperate guy trying to win a debate.

Anybody could have typed it in wookiepedia and there is nothing, no concrete source material to back wookiepedia up so therefore your credibility has been severely damaged.

You have been avoiding EVERY single question i have thrown at you which just proves that you have lost the debate and further prove your pig headedness refusing to back down and shut up.


Originally posted by Incanus
read this wookieepedia excerpt dude. About Malaks canonical powers and abilities. And dude, i said VADER and Bane, not Sidious and Bane, you just dont want to have to face the fact that the guy that you wish slept in your bed would die if faced by this guy, and die FAST.
Dude what ever, calling me a vader fanboy isn't going to change the fact that your an absolutely pathethic and lousy debater.

And he isn't going to die fast, there is ZERO proof to even back your claims that malak is going to pawn vader, it is NOT a fact.

Like i said, if malak is so uber with sith spells which is unproven that he knows off, how come he couldn't kill revan who is barely more powerful than vader?


Originally posted by Incanus

Having been a Jedi Guardian, Darth Malak was a skilled lightsaber duelist.

Again HOW skilled is he actually? Even wookiepedia CANNOT conclude just how skilled is he, how is this proof he is better than vader?

Originally posted by Incanus

He spoke and comprehended several languages, including Basic and the Sith language. Contrasting his Sith Master Revan, Malak used brute force rather than strategy to defeat his enemies, as demonstrated when he ordered both the bombing of Telos IV and the destruction of Taris.
Not relevant to debate

Originally posted by Incanus


When he was a Sith Lord, Malak could use the Force to choke more than one person at a time, demonstrating this ability to Revan when he simultaneously choked two Jedi that he had captured just before their final confrontation.

And this proves what? That hes more powerful than vader? Oh right vader suspended 10 wild dogs in the air(each dog is capable of tearing a man to pieces with ease) and snapped all their necks at once.


Originally posted by Incanus

Immediately after that, he also displayed his ability to throw his lightsaber, igniting and throwing it at one of the captured Jedi's chest, killing him.
Wow so throwing his lightsaber means hes ub3r.

Vader is probably more "ub3r" seeing that he threw his lightsaber at a FLYING SHIP and killed fang zhar when his lightsaber landed on him.

Source: Rise of darth vader.


Originally posted by Incanus

His strength with the Force enabled him to create a whirlwind of Force energy that would encircle his victim,
And vader could create force waves and seize telekinetic storms that nearly killed one of the most powerful force users ever: galen marek.


Originally posted by Incanus

and he could use the Force to create a stasis field which froze his enemies in place.
Which doesn't work on incredibly powerful force users, or revan would have been frozen by malak and then slaughtered.


Originally posted by Incanus

Malak was also proficient in using the Force to augment his speed, and could also use it to supress the abilities of another Force-user. He could render himself virtually invulnerable to most Force powers for a limited amount of time,
Oh right, how you forget that him being "invulnerable" to force attacks is GAMEPLAY MECHANICS which sadly are NOT canon.

If he truly was invulnerable then why isn't he the most powerful force user ever? Why was revan still able to beat him? Hell why didn't he even dare confront revan in the first place and choose to backstab him with a frickin star ship?


Originally posted by Incanus

He was also skilled in the use of Sith sorcery.
Unsubstantiated and unproven, malak has NEVER shown sith sorcery in ANY SW material ever so obviously wookiepedia is lying, you can't use wookipedia to back your claims in a debate.

Originally posted by Incanus

So i add empahsis to some things, INVULNERABLE TO A FORCE USERS POWERS, SUPRESS ANOTHERS FORCE POWERS, DARK HEALING, AND STASIS FIELD. First off he isn't invulnerable to force powers, he can't supress the powers of a more powerful force user and neither would the stasis field work.

And his "dark healing" is actually a force drain, wookiepedia is being full of shit again(anybody can edit it).

Sorry spud, you lose, you want to continue to debate then ANSWER every single question i have thrown at you that you blatantly ignored.

Oh by the way, yet again you have been OWNED once more. Now shut the hell up.

Dude, you actually think VADER would kill BANE????????????? You truly are demented dude. But think about it, a guy who has only had 1 game with him fighting, and a comic series with him in it, is going to actually have a good background? im just rolling with what i can give about Malak, while you have a whole bunch of **** about a guy who got pwned by his son, who had basically no training. oh, and btw, Revan was a better duelist than Malak, so he didnt need to kill him with the force.

Originally posted by Incanus
Dude, you actually think VADER would kill BANE????????????? You truly are demented dude. But think about it, a guy who has only had 1 game with him fighting, and a comic series with him in it, is going to actually have a good background? im just rolling with what i can give about Malak, while you have a whole bunch of **** about a guy who got pwned by his son, who had basically no training. oh, and btw, Revan was a better duelist than Malak, so he didnt need to kill him with the force. No, bane would kill vader and rape his ass.

And no, vader didn't get pwned by his own son, wow if thats the case luke should also be able to pwn marek... NOT.

You see son vader, according to luke skywalker was holding back in a sense where vader did not use any force powers or luke would have been dead by the start of the duel.

And so because revan is a better duelist means he doesn't need to use the force? What kinda bullshit are you pulling it out of your ass again?

Dude, i said Malak was NOT a better duelist than Revan, and being able to supress his powers, OR being immune to them thru a force technique, would NOT matter when Revan blade is thru his stomach.

There is still zero proof that hes immune to force powers moron, quit being an idiotic cow and pull your bloody head out of your arse.

I'm trying my best to be patient but you are just wracking my nerves, thank god your not a lawyer or your clients are all going to get sodomized in jail and get a death sentence.

Prove that malak can supress revans or anybodies powers.

Uh, well considering how the fact is, he posses the power in the game that cancels tier on and two force powers, for supression. He did that to me and i pwned his ass without them.

Gameplay mechanics aren't canon fool and cannot be used in debates, you see? You pulled more stuff out of your ass, now get your head out of there.

Want proof that it isn't canon? Go read leland chees blog on the official star wars site.

Because if you consider that a feat then vader would be a god considering in empire at war, he could wipe out 50-100 rebel troopers with one force wave.

hehehe leland chees(e)

I think that ^ is a euphemism for "Okay, I concede."

no its not, i just couldnt help but put that for some reason.........

You probably should concede though. Most of the little that I read of your argument revolved around game mechanics, which as Wolverine said, isn't canon at all.

I just havnt read all that crap about Vader, like i said i live in a small place witha small library, none of that stuff. If i read the,, i might agree with him, its just i cant get my hands on the stuff. So dontblame me if i know more about Malak than Vader. which i dont. He just wants to know stuff about a guy who is virtually unknown in powers and abilities.

Wookieepedia.

Checked it, he rebutted everything with absolutly no logic of Malak apparently. Asking for the lightsaber skill of a guy who is virtually unknown, though he was a jedi guardian, focusing on lightsaber combat.

Exactly. This is why I say that before any new member posts in this forum, that they be made to read a notice describing how the KotOR characters don't have any specific feats or power to their names and thus suck as Vs. opponents.

I know one thing about Malak that is from the coics: He had trained since he became a jedi to focus on lightsaber combat, so he would be a formidable duelist. And Revan has feats to his name, so does Bastila,(albeit few for her) Canderous, And Carth (i think) Revan has alot of feats in fact..... not all combat albeit, but some, so does Malak, all from canon comics, i think.

Yeah, their activities are known. But when these things say "very skilled lightsaber duelist" it doesn't help. Because so was Qui-Gon, and Obi-Wan, and Anakin, and Bondara, and Yoda, and Dooku, and Mace and Marek, and Luke, and Palaptine, and Drallig, and Shaak, and Kas'im, and Bane, and Revan, and Kun etc. etc. etc. etc.

The thing is, he trained almost exclusivly for it, so he must at least be a good duelist. The Mandalorian Wars would have improved his technique.

Originally posted by Incanus
Checked it, he rebutted everything with absolutly no logic of Malak apparently. Asking for the lightsaber skill of a guy who is virtually unknown, though he was a jedi guardian, focusing on lightsaber combat. Please don't tell me i have no logic when it is obvious that your the one without any logic at all.

They say malak is good, but how good and how defined is virtually unknown, look at exar kun, bane and sidious, they too are good but we know EXACTLY how good.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
Please don't tell me i have no logic when it is obvious that your the one without any logic at all.

They say malak is good, but how good and how defined is virtually unknown, look at exar kun, bane and sidious, they too are good but we know EXACTLY how good.

Ok dude, NO ONE has knowledge of Malak, not you, not me. Only Lucas (maybe) and the guys who invented him. I will admit i lost, but it is mainly becuase i have no logic of Malak, but neither do you. You can not say you do. Unless you say you do, but you would be lying.

I do and im not lying, and you dont say things like "i have no logic of malak", you dont refer to logic like that.

Correction, its "i dont know shit about malak and i should stop debating".

Now please zip it.

Dude, you dont know shit about Malak either, do you. I know i dont, but no one does.

I do, i know revan killed him, i know his skills like any other kotor character is inconclusive, i know he is bald, i know he doesn't have a jaw and i know he is tall.

Shut it.

Dude, those are the only thing canon about Malak other than his use of choke, lightsaber throw, lightning, and force drain.

Go pop a hemorrhoid.

I'm gonna miss you Arnie. What with REX's zero-tolerance bash control and a well-funded auto-ban system, there's no place for anger in these forums anymore.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
Go pop a hemorrhoid. Dude, i just stated a fact that is irrefutible. And he has a red lightsaber. He originally had a blue one. That also is canon. And how he lost his jaw.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I'm gonna miss you Arnie. What with REX's zero-tolerance bash control and a well-funded auto-ban system, there's no place for anger in these forums anymore. That was a blatant joke, not a personal attack.

I'm winking at you through my monitor and tapping the side of my nose.