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1.Lightsabers

2.Force

3.All Out

1. Obi-Wan

2. Bane easily...

3. Bane, due to force abilities.

Bane wins over all.

Swords - Obi-Wan showed that Form 3 was good against Djem So, so he has a chance.

Kas'im: the guy who mastered all seven forms and spent decades perfecting them, was described to be in superb physical shape, was capable of using the Force to defend himself against attacks that would have been able to absolutely annihilate his undefended body in an instant, was described as being able to wield his two blades with the effectiveness of six, and was declared the greatest swordsman of his time by the omniscient narrator, and possibly the greatest ever.

Bane: the guy who, on fair ground with the above in lightsaber combat, absolutely demolished him. The guy who who was capable of moving at speeds far beyond the eyes of powerful Force users.

^And that's not even taking into account the fact that Bane grows considerably in power by the end of PoD, after he starts actually utilising his new found abilities, where he becomes far more powerful than he was when he performed mentioned feats.

It's no contest. Bane absolutely shits on Obi-Wan in lightsaber combat.



1. Oh, please. A minor advantage with lightsaber forms is far outweighed by a considerable superiority in Force ability (which itself is demonstrated in Bane's fight with Kas'im, who not only was able to use said form in combat (plus every other), but was literally leagues beyond him in that respect), and that's something that Bane possesses over Obi-Wan, firmly, to an even greater degree than he did with Kas'im.

2. Bane isn't limited to Djem So, as he's shown using both your vaunted Soresu, and Makashi, in combat, consistently throughout PoD.

I did say that Bane would probably win.

If only restricted to sword fighting I think that Kenobi would have a chance.

I am quite certain that he has a working knowledge of other forms, but his main style is Djem So (as far as I know).

Because kenobi uses soresu, i dont know if bane will be able to penetrate his defense. Kenobi wins sabers, bane wins the rest.

Kas'im spent his entire life honing his saber skills, and was stated to be the best swordsman of his era, perhaps of any era. That's very high up, and Bane, well, Kas'im did manage to get him in the saber duel eventualy but it took a LONG time and it was very close. By the end of PoD, Bane is probably Kas'im's equal with a saber. Kenobi's strength is his lightsaber skills, and he held off a pissed off Anakin for a long time. In fact, we never see anyone penetrate Obi-Wan's saber defense in all of ROTS. This would undoubtedly be close, but unless Bane makes a mistake like ROTS Vader did, or Kenobi gets the high ground, I'd say the guy who matches the guy who's possibly the bests saber wielder ever (up to his era) wins.


Force goes to Bane, Kenobi's not bad but seeing how badly Dooku demolished him with the Force I'd say Bane could do the same.



All-out goes to Bane.



What? When the f*ck was this??? I remember them fighting on uneven ground (the temple) and Kas'im, in the end, after a LONG fight, beat him in sabers. Then, Bane used the Force to drop the temple on him. The only other times they fought with sabers, that I am aware of, was when Kas'im was teaching Bane and theysparred, and all those times Kas'im won.

Originally posted by IKP
Kas'im: the guy who mastered all seven forms and spent decades perfecting them, was described to be in superb physical shape, was capable of using the Force to defend himself against attacks that would have been able to absolutely annihilate his undefended body in an instant, was described as being able to wield his two blades with the effectiveness of six, and was declared the greatest swordsman of his time by the omniscient narrator, and possibly the greatest ever.

Bane: the guy who, on fair ground with the above in lightsaber combat, absolutely demolished him. The guy who who was capable of moving at speeds far beyond the eyes of powerful Force users.

LOL WUT? Too bad Bane only demolished him when he force raped him. Bane himself admitted that Kas'im was whooping his ass in lightsaber combat, which his why he resorted to using the force. Losing to Kas'im in lightsaber combat does not = a good feat, even if he did hold out for awhile.




Speculation. Probably 100% correct, but it means nothing.



Nah, Neb. As far as Bane's track record is concerned in PoD, IIRC he only actually won one lightsaber duel without using the force offensively, aside from the fights that he was in that weren't actually shown. Every time that he's about to get his ass wafflestomped he throws a temper tantrum and lashes out with the force, which gives him the win. That doesn't bode well for him in a purely lightsabers only fight. Obi-Wan will probably have to work his ass off for it, but he will take pure lightsaber combat.





This is only relevant in the all out fight and force fight, where it's already the common census that Bane would win those due to his force abilities.

Obi-Wan wins 1. Bane wins 2 and 3.

There are no rules when it comes to battles-to-the-death, Nebaris. Kas'im's advantage wasn't "unfair" or otherwise illegitimate simply because he was a swordsman with greater experience and technique than Bane.

Was the point not clear enough the first time I made it?

I wasn't whining about Kas'im's victory being cheap or anything; he used an advantage he possessed over Bane well, and won their exchange based on merits of his vast expertise with the lightsaber.

The point is that Kas'im's defeat of Bane, under those circumstances, doesn't conclusively prove that his relative level of ability (by that, I mean their ability in comparison to others, not to eachother) was better than Bane's, as the fact that Bane was unfamiliar with his style is a primary factor in his defeat. Bane's poor performance in that situation can be attributed to his unfamiliarity with Kas'im's style, which is a limitation that would only hinder him in a fight with the mentioned Twi'Lek (as Kas'im is the only combatant in Star Wars known to have mastered all seven forms with the Jar'Kai style), and it certainly wouldn't factor in on a fight with Obi-Wan.

What would, however, is the relative level of ability Bane displays in taking down someone of Kas'im's calibre on equal terms, and he absolutely outclassed someone who has Obi-Wan beat in every way as far as lightsaber combat goes.

The same would happen here: Obi-Wan would get curbstomped, the only difference being even moreso than Kas'im was.

You would still have to prove that he is capable of breaching through Obi-Wan's defense, which is among the greatest in swordsmanship to the point where Count Dooku (a man who spent decades refining Makashi and mastering it at levels Bane has not) didn't even bother and simply disabled him with the Force.

Given how Kas'im:

A) Mastered Soresu.
B) Spent decades perfecting it.
C) Has the defensive manoeuvres of all the six other forms at his command,

and how Bane had - by Kas'im's own admission - been in a position to break though the master swordsman's defences and defeat him, when they were on equal footing, I fail to see how Obi-Wan's defence would be too much for him. It certainly didn't prove too effective against Anakin's (who Bane is arguably far beyond given his performance against Kas'im and feats of speed) offence, given how frequently the young Sith Lord had been breaking through it via continuous melee attacks.

It's pretty clear that Obi-Wan's outclassed here.

Wasn't Obiwan called the greatest Soresu master ever? Bane would have a hell of a hard time breaching his defenses.

He was. By Lightsnake and AcStyles, and by them only.

Given Bane's phenomenal superiority in Force ability (and thus, superiority in speed, strength, and reflexes), I'm not thinking Obi-Wan would last too long. Seconds, if he's lucky.

Lucky for you there is a saber battle and a force battle. If Dooku was unable to penetrate Obiwan's defenses and had to resort to the force, Bane would have an even harder time.

Yeah, no one has ever penetrated obi wan's defense with a lightsaber. I don't think it will change against Bane.

Come again? ANd as Gideon said, it wasn't unfair. Kas'im possessed a lightsaber that was 2 blades, and could connect to make one double bladed lightsaber, like Asajj Ventress's blades. Using his lightsaber and his mastery of all lightsaber forms to his advantage is in no way cheap, and in the end, Kas'im did best Bane in saber combat.

Firstly, what the hell is up with the "Nebrais?" I know it's not a typo, as it's about the fifth time you've referred to me in such a way, so really, are you trying to be clever or something? Because it's not. At least "Noobaris" makes sense, even if it does sound somewhat lame, but this just sounds stupid. It would be like me purposefully calling you "Darth Siht." It just sounds stupid.

Secondly, it seems simple points are still completely beyond your grasp.

Bane ended up losing due to a lack of ability that would only work against him when up against Kas'im. His unfamiliarity with Jar'Kai would never hinder him to the degree that it did in his duel with Kas'im with any other combatant, and it certainly wouldn't be a factor in a fight with Obi-Wan. All that his loss speaks for is a lack of ability relative to Kas'im alone, not relative to anyone else, ergo it's irrelevant in any duel that Kas'im isn't a part of.

However, the first part of the fight, where neither possessed an unfair advantage over the other, and where Bane absolutely demolished the Blademaster does speak for their general relative ability, as Bane won based on merits that would be applicable in any fight (his incredible force ability). Neither possessed a specific advantage over the other, meaning that Bane did as well as he did, simply because he's just that good, and that much better than Kas'im is.

He would destroy Obi-Wan. He would be able to go on the offence immediately (given Obi-Wan's style), his natural style (variance in grip and blade angle, which only Kas'im would be familiar with) would likely be able to throw the Jedi Master off guard at first, and it would be all the more easy to quickly overpower Obi-Wan given the obvious inferiority in Force ability and physical conditioning there is between Kas'im and Obi-Wan, on Obi-Wan's part.

I would honestly give Obi-Wan seconds, at most. Bane's natural style which would catch Obi-Wan unawares + his ridiculous speed and strength net him an easy and early win.

It doesn't matter. I said he lost to Kas'im with a lightsaber, and that's all I said. And before you wet yourself, remember that I was the ONLY one besides you so far who favored Bane in all 3 scenarios.

Your original name, I believe, was Nebrais, so I called you that. Now, please do us all a favor and go suck Bane's cock somewhere else.

There is absolutely no way that Obi-wan could win in any of the scenarios.

LOL@Noobaris telling other people that simple points are out of their grasp. If this is the case then what does that say about your lack of intelligence, originality, social life, etc..

Am I to assume that your post was directed at me? If so than let me remind you that everything that needs to be said have been said, I have nothing further to contribute to the discussion because I know that it's not even a real argument.
Bane pwn's Ken sh*tless. It's barely even a fight.
Unless of course Bane chokes with laughter, Kenobi drown's in agony and his own ineptitude. Absolute Rape.

No I'm not talking to you, I'm talking to the other idiot.

I don't think it will be as easy a fight as you think, at least not at sabers. In wookiepedia, it clearly stated that obi wan was one of the best swordsmen the order has ever seen. Also, it says that a master of soresu will have an invincible defense, and trap the enemy in their own offense. I think obi wan will win with sabers.

There is a slight issue that relates to not only this thread, but many others like it. While moving 'faster than the eye can see' is impressive, I'm beginning to doubt that it should be put on such a high plateau, especially when it is one of the primary reasons for arguing in favor of one opponent. I was just going back through the Revenge of the Sith novelization and it confirms that General Grievous's Magnaguards can move "faster than the eye can see" according to the omniscient narrator (just before Obi-Wan defeats them); though the Magnaguards are highly lethal and expertly trained in all seven modes of lightsaber combat (thus more than a match for the vast majority of most droids and non-Force users), they are still just droids. If they can move faster than the eye can see, it's a reasonable expectation that any Jedi or Sith Lord with anything approaching a decent connection to the Force can move similarly.

That's pretty interesting the novels would need to say how much faster than the normal can see for it to be a very impressive feat rather than impressive. I'm going to go back to read that.

The point is that "moving faster than the eye can see" is not good enough reason for someone to beat another person.


-- Revenge of the Sith, page 285

And though it isn't relevant, I'd like to point out that two new observations can be made about Darth Maul and Mace Windu -- they are masters of multiple forms.

Also, in Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter, it says that Maul moves his lightsaber so fast that it looks like a Crimson Shield. So, yeah they need to say how much faster than the human eye.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Also, in Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter, it says that Maul moves his lightsaber so fast that it looks like a Crimson Shield. So, yeah they need to say how much faster than the human eye.

That's just great, now can we get back on topic?

Okay. That really shows how frigging' fast Sidious can move his blade, but I don't really see why you quoted me before saying that.



skywalker833, this is on topic. PoD states that Bane can move his lightsaber faster than the eye can see. This topic is Bane vs. Obi-Wan. Everything we're discussing is relevant.

Sorry, have read the book for a while. Anyways, even if he can move his blade faster than the eye can see, Obi Wan can parry anything 20 hits or less per second.

Another good point.

Also, Obi wan can just trap bane in his own attack, as i stated before, and take him out. Probably easier said than done, but he can do it.

To show that Bane's particular level of speed isn't unique at all.

Originally posted by Gideon
To show that Bane's particular level of speed isn't unique at all.
So, you were doing the same thing that I was doing when I mentioned Maul's speed?

Originally posted by darthsith19
So, you were doing the same thing that I was doing when I mentioned Maul's speed?

Bingo.

So anyways, sounds like it would go like this:
1. Obi Wan

2. Bane

3. Bane

All of you are ignoring/missing four fundamental points.

1. Bane was able to move at speeds beyond that of which the eyes of powerful Force users like Kas'im can see.

2. He was described as moving so fast that time seemed to freeze, indicating that his speed went far beyond what the present Force users were capable of following.

3. It was his entire body that moved at such speeds, not just his lightsaber.

4. The feat in question was performed midway through PoD, before Bane had even gained Darth Revan's holocron, and he grows far more powerful by the end of the book.

So yeah, nothing that's been said changes the uniqueness behind Bane's display of speed. It's beyond compare, and this at a time where Bane's power had yet to skyrocket.

Originally posted by IKP
All of you are ignoring/missing four fundamental points.

1. Bane was able to move at speeds beyond that of which the eyes of powerful Force users like Kas'im can see.

2. He was described as moving so fast that time seemed to freeze, indicating that his speed went far beyond what the present Force users were capable of following.

3. It was his entire body that moved at such speeds, not just his lightsaber.

4. The feat in question was performed midway through PoD, before Bane had even gained Darth Revan's holocron, and he grows far more powerful by the end of the book.

So yeah, nothing that's been said changes the uniqueness behind Bane's display of speed. It's beyond compare, and this at a time where Bane's power had yet to skyrocket.

Prove that refining one's Force ability leads to refinement in speed. Prove that the passage -- especially the one about time freezing -- is not an example of hyperbole. Prove that Bane's ability relative to Kas'im is greater than Sidious appearing as "a blur" to Anakin Skywalker, whose connection and power in the Force is truly beyond compare, or any of the aforementioned citations of speed.

Once you do, we'll talk about Bane and his special status.

Have you not been looking at this whole thread? Are you bane's girlfriend or something? These are all questions we would like to know. Obviously, Obi-Wan has amazing skills with the lightsaber and you fail to see that.

Originally posted by IKP
All of you are ignoring/missing four fundamental points.

1. Bane was able to move at speeds beyond that of which the eyes of powerful Force users like Kas'im can see.

2. He was described as moving so fast that time seemed to freeze, indicating that his speed went far beyond what the present Force users were capable of following.

3. It was his entire body that moved at such speeds, not just his lightsaber.

4. The feat in question was performed midway through PoD, before Bane had even gained Darth Revan's holocron, and he grows far more powerful by the end of the book.

So yeah, nothing that's been said changes the uniqueness behind Bane's display of speed. It's beyond compare, and this at a time where Bane's power had yet to skyrocket.


http://www.orlyowl.com/goawai.jpg

Originally posted by darthsith19
http://www.orlyowl.com/goawai.jpg

Come across a cache of avian pictures, recently?

Yup, it is the return of the "O rly?" owls!!!

Originally posted by darthsith19
Yup, it is the return of the "O rly?" owls!!!

Fowl Wars...

Originally posted by Gideon
Prove that refining one's Force ability leads to refinement in speed.

That's like asking one to prove that developing one's muscles leads to an increase in one's physical strength.

As I've explained to you before, the ability to enhance your speed with the Force is one of the many different Force abilities there are, and like all of the others, it relies on a Force user's ability with manipulating the power source that said ability derives from (force strength + mastery).

This is further cemented by the correlation there is between powerful Force user, and great ability to enhance your speed, as an be seen with the likes of Sidious, Yoda, Luke Skywalker, Mace Windu, Darth Sion etc. Not that this is at all really necessary, as the very nature of of the Force itself would tell you as much, as I explained above.

It's pretty conclusive that the more powerful the Force user, the greater the ability to enhance one's speed is, and by extension, developing your ability with the Force in general (which Bane did by leaps and bounds following his display against Sirak), and in turn becoming a greater Force user, would increase your ability to enhance your speed.



The first part of the passage, where he's described to move faster than the eyes of all present could see, is not subject to hyperbole. It's directly stated down as a fact.

The second part, about it seeming as if time had frozen, is, but as I've said before, it's not like we can't gauge any knowledge from hyperbolic statements, as they're put there for a reason - we just can't completely take each and every word at face value.

Which is absolutely not what I was doing; as I said, even if it's being exaggerated, it's absolutely conclusive that Bane wasn't just moving slightly too quickly for the eyes of Kas'im and the students to see, he was moving well in excess of such a speed. You can't argue that; hyperbole or not, if it's stated that time appeared to be frozen, the clear, underlying message is that Bane was moving considerably faster than what they would have been able to see, to the point where it seemed as if he were teleporting from one position to another (as that is exactly what it would appear like if time were to have been frozen).



I generally don't compare apples and oranges, Escape, and you asking me this, here, after I was talking solely about speed comes across as a tad bit odd.

Anyways, the exact part of the RotS novelisation you're referring to is invalid in this case, because as the movie shows us, Anakin didn't arrive until Mace and Sidious' duel had ended. That Anakin was able to see them fighting contradicts the movies.



Which is what you'd call irrelevant misdirection. His force connection alone doesn't mean anything until you can substantiate how much of it was realised. Based on his individual displays, and performances against other Force users (being stalemated by Obi-Wan, and overpowered by Dooku), we can logically assume that not too much of it was.



Again, you're asking me to compare a dueling accomplishment to several displays of speed. Don't be silly, you're replying to a post that was talking solely about speed - keep the discussion relevant and stop bringing forth these absurd comparisons.

Anyway, Obi wan can block nearly any move bane throws at him. Bane beats him up with the force and wins. Its a done deal.

He didn't seem to block Dooku's kick to the chops that well, or Grevious' backhand. I seriously think that Kenobi's defence is vastly overrated, only working on Anakin becuase of how stupid he was being.

However it should be noted that although Bane cream's him with the force, he isn't to be underestimated in that area. He was able to match Anakin's force push in their duel. Anakin who, when very weak, can crush Palpatines vertually indestructable medical centre.

In his duel with Anakin in ROTS, he also fails to block a few kicks and almost gets chokes th death by Anakin when their in the Mustafar Control Room.

Originally posted by darthsith19
In his duel with Anakin in ROTS, he also fails to block a few kicks and almost gets chokes th death by Anakin when their in the Mustafar Control Room.

To be quite fair, Anakin is unique in the sense that, unlike virtually everyone else, the longer a duel progresses, the more ferocious Anakin becomes.

Originally posted by darthsith19
In his duel with Anakin in ROTS, he also fails to block a few kicks and almost gets chokes th death by Anakin when their in the Mustafar Control Room.

Obi wan's style is to protect himself from a lightsaber, not punches or kicks.