Final Fantasy VIII vs. Final Fantasy VII

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Pyron_is_God
This is the army-like battle....


We are excluding Ultimecia here.

All other characters and weapons and whatnot are allowed.

Who wins?

Dark-Jaxx
Well, FFVII has more strong characters, they have more Weapons, with actual feats and shit.

FFVII I gotta say.

Terryc250
FF7 has Chaos, Omega Weiss, Cloud, Zack and Sephiroth erm

Dark-Jaxx
And the other Weapons.

Darkstorm Zero
FF8 has the gardens, Ragnarok, and perhaps the biggest ace in the hole, Omega Weapon.... evil face

Pyron_is_God
The Weapons of FFVII aren't that impressive. Emerala nd Ruby never did anything storywise while Sapphire and Diamond both barely managed to destroy parts of buildings with their blasts.

Some missiles from Galbadia should do them in.

Pyron_is_God
Oh, I forgot FFVII's Omega Weapon. Well, it willl probably take a lot more than missiles to beat that thing.

Dark-Jaxx
Thing is, any one of the weapons can one shot Galbadia PHYSICALLY, they would kill all in their path, no weak ass Galbadia soldier is stopping a weapon.

Pyron_is_God
Dude...compare the damage output of a WEAPON
Fqt0c1TA7y8

And Galbadian missiles
BnmPQAgZiQE

Dark-Jaxx
But compare the SIZE of the weapon combined with speed, if a Weapon were to enter Galbadia Garden, they would be completely fvcked.

Terryc250
Why are you showing Saphire weapon?


These guys can probably solo and they're not even the strongest in FFVII world, watch from 0:20-1:50, the thing at the bottom of Omega WEAPONs feet is the largest city in FFVII, Midgar.
UyRkHx8THu0


Power of Chaos
F6fqKrOHCJk


Chaos and Omega
L14l2B3BWeg




Sephiroth is above even these guys

Pyron_Knight
No he's not. What creators say means nothing if it contradicts their work.
Their work is what is important, not them.
Or is the Hulk stronger than Galactus?

And we saw Sephiroth get WTFpwned in his strongest form iN AC. I know he was playing with Cloud but his durability doesn't go down. His durability was not enough to take Cloud's Omnislash so there's no reason to believe it can take anything stronger. And there are A LOT of things stronger than Omnislash iN FFVIII.

Terryc250
Omnislash is clearly a PIS move, I'm certain it would take out Chaos as well, Sephiroth didn't use any of his powers in that fight except a little TK which brought down the building.

Sephiroth held holy (which can END EVERYTHING) with his TK for months, he has the full power of jenova and power of the lifestream, which is the power of the planet, nothing beats that erm


"Kitase said that Sephiroth's existence and will is extremely powerful. There is nothing stronger, nothing above him."

"Zack was chosen as the main character as a representative of a BC era SOLDIER. Sephiroth is already the strongest in the world so there's no room for growth, and we couldn't possibly see ourselves making a game over type situation where he loses"

So since Sephiroth has the power of the planet, powerful willpower that is strong enough to hold even Holy, full power of the Jenova entity, stated by the creators that there is NOTHING above Sephiroth, and Sephiroth is the strongest in the world..

I'm sure Sephiroth is the most powerful FF7 being.

Luminatus
EDIT

SHM
Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
No he's not. What creators say means nothing if it contradicts their work.
Their work is what is important, not them.

This is one of the most stupid things I've ever read in my life.
FFVII is THEIR story, NOT yours. Only they have the authority to decide what is canon and what isn't. Not you, or me.
If they state something that contradicts their previous work, then it's a retcon, and still canon.

And yes, their work is more important than them. But they were talking about what, in the interviews? Oh yeah... About a story created by them, about their work.

FFVII only exists because of them. Therefore, everything they state about the story of FFVII, is canon. Deal with it.

Burning thought
PK your queer anology is not required and is incredibly low and wrong, especially asking if Hulk is stronger than galactus, i cant imagine the creator of Hulk seriously saying Hulk is stronger than Galactus, the anology is further shattered by the fact sephiroth designed by the same people that design other FF characters

Pyron_Knight
Correct. That's why i'm going by their story, which CONTRADICTS their word.
If we take what writers say above what their works say then all Hell is unleashed that makes no kind of sense.
You want to say Sephiroth > all because the creators say so? Well, I say Superman > a universe-creator because the writer said so. There.
Outside of their work, Nomura and Kitase are just people. What they say doesn't effect or mean anything to their universe unless they shape it acordingly.



No it's not. A retcon is when in-universe events contradict previous in-universe events like the scene with Cloud and Sephiroth in the Reactor being retconned in LO.
What a writer says outside of his creation, especially if it contradicts everything, should be thrown out.



Yep and what they say contradicts their work.
There's absolutely no proof from inside the FF7 Compilation that Sephiroth is stronger than Omega or Chaos. But because Nomura or Kitase say so, you jump all over it and worship it like the Gospel.



The writer of a comic is exactly the same as the creator of a character in a comic. It be like if Square got a brain and fired Nomura and replaced him with someone talented and innovative, it wouldn't mean what this new guy says or does is less important. He's part of SE just like the writer is part of Marvel/DC. What they write or make about that character in the game/comic is absolute canon.

SHM
So what you are saying PK, is that everything about FFVII that is not showed to us on a TV(or cellphone and PSP, in the case of BC and CC) is not canon?

LOL

Who gave you the authority to decide what is, and what isn't canon in the Compilation of FFVII?
FFVII is their story. If they publish books/guides and give interviews to explain things about THEIR story then it's canon.

It doesn't matter in what format(books, movies, games, etc) the story of FFVII is presented to us. If it comes from the guys who created it, it's canon.

Pyron_Knight
Tell me, what are we debating here?
Final Fantasy VII?
Which is...what? Oh yes...TV and cellphones and PSP.
I'm sorry if you're too stupid to understand that if what the creators say contradicts their work it means jack shit but it's the way it is.
Go ahead, ask anyone if they think what a writer of a comic says is worthwhile when it contradicts the actual comic.
Same applies here.



Simple brainpower.



Alright then. Hulk > Galactus. You win. Logic loses.

Terryc250
Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Tell me, what are we debating here?
Final Fantasy VII?
Which is...what? Oh yes...TV and cellphones and PSP.
I'm sorry if you're too stupid to understand that if what the creators say contradicts their work it means jack shit but it's the way it is.
Go ahead, ask anyone if they think what a writer of a comic says is worthwhile when it contradicts the actual comic.
Same applies here.
First of all, how does it contradict their work? It doesn't.. Sephiroth has the power of the lifestream, and the greatest willpower on the planet, which is MORE then enough to stop anyone in the FF7 world.

Can you actually quote SL, or JK saying Hulk is the strongest BEING in the universe? And not a quote from a story writer but from the actual creator themselves? However Hulks strength is technically potentially unlimited, but it would take thousands of years of getting mad to reach the level of abstract entities.


Umm.. no one ever said Hulk was above Galactus.. thats something you just pulled out of ur a**

Dark-Jaxx
No, but someone did say that Superman Prime>all but Pre-Retcon Beyonder, the writer did.

Pyron_Knight
And sorry Terry but PAD said Hulk could grow stronger than Galactus.
Deal with it tard.

Terryc250
PAD? Who's that? Wheres the quote?

Tard? Are u mad? You don't need to resort to name calling just because you're wrong, just deal with it.

SHM
Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Tell me, what are we debating here?
Final Fantasy VII?
Which is...what? Oh yes...TV and cellphones and PSP.
I'm sorry if you're too stupid to understand that if what the creators say contradicts their work it means jack shit but it's the way it is.
Go ahead, ask anyone if they think what a writer of a comic says is worthwhile when it contradicts the actual comic.
Same applies here.

And I'm sorry if you are to stupid to understand your opinion about FFVII means jack shit compared to statements from the guys who made the ****ing story.

They don't need to prove anything. A statement is enough, because they are the owners of FFVII, and they decide what is, and what isn't, in the story.

If we go by your retarded logic, I can say that S-E is a company that produces games... But AC is a movie, so it's not canon.

And who cares about what ONE writer of a comic said?! Is he the owner of Marvel Comics? He have authority over everyone else in the company, to state something like that?
Because everyone involved in the Compilation of FFVII at S-E, agree that there is nothing stronger than Sephiroth in FFVII. Deal with it.



Simple stubborness. You don't want to admit you are wrong.



If you prove to me, this guy have the authority over Marvel Comics to decide something like that, then... Yes, Hulk > Galactus.

Everything stated by the creators(about their story) is true. If it don't make sense, you can call it a retcon, plot-hole, or whatever. BUT IS CANON!

Now, stop disagreeing with the creators and making yourself look like a fool.

Pyron_Knight
My opinion is fact. Supported by the games. Unlike what the creators say.



No they're not. Square owns FFVII. Nomura and Kitase are disposable.
If Square hired Joe Schmo right now and put him in charge of an FFVII game he could do whatever the hell he wanted with it.



Worst. Analogy. Ever.

Advent Children is part of the FFVII Compilationa nd with every other game or book, is part of the FFVII Universe.
I'm referring to whatever happens in thsoe works as canon and worth discussion. Everything outside of it is worthless, ESPECIALLY if it contradicts in-universe events.



You make it sound like Kitase owns Square-Enix..he's ONE person in the company. Square could toss him out on his ass right now and hire anyone they wanted to make up FFVII canon.



Marvel Comics is c aompany. Square-Enix is a company. The writers who comment on their comics are just like the creators who comment on their games ie. both their opinions are worthless outside of their creations.



He's a wirter who writes Hulk comics. The FFVII creators are game developers who make a game. Same exact thing with no more authority than one another.

And that's why out-of-universe opinions are bullshit.

You think Hulk > Galactus. Sephiroth > Omega Weiss. Just because soem nitwit said so.
You are the fool, I'm afraid.

SHM
Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
My opinion is fact. Supported by the games. Unlike what the creators say.

laughing laughing out loud rolling on floor laughing



Nomura and Kitase are part of S-E, genius. And Kitase is the story-writer of the Compilation. The guy who write the story stated a new fact about it, and everyone involved in the Comp agreed with him.

And that makes it a fact.



"with every other game and book"? You agree with me then.



Even if they fire him, everything he did(and stated) while working as the story-writer, is still canon.



You cannot compare some random writers of Marvel, with the FFVII team of S-E.
Kitase, Nomura, and Nojima created FFVII. They have control over all the universe and characters of FFVII.
A writer of Marvel, have control over a single story, and only that. And he/she didn't create all the characters in it(Galactus for example).
This is why the statements of FFVII's team have more validity than statements of a random writer, that is there only to write a story about characters who don't belong to him/her.



LOL
You always makes me laugh.

He writes Hulk stories then. Did he create Galactus? Because the guys who thinks there is nothing above Sephiroth in FFVII, created everything in FFVII!

Now, you understand the difference between them(one Marvel writer, and FFVII's team)? If you still don't, read slower.



Like yours.



The Hulk writer can be a "nitwit", but not FFVII's team.



laughing

Coming from the guy who said this:

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
You make it sound like Kitase owns Square-Enix..he's ONE person in the company. Square could toss him out on his ass right now and hire anyone they wanted to make up FFVII canon. We could only hope.

Terryc250
Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
My opinion is fact. Supported by the games. Unlike what the creators say.

AGAIN, no it is not, Comprehend this, Sephiroth has the power of the lifestream, lifestream is EVERYTHING in the FF7 world, Sephiroth has powerful willpower, that can contain even Holy, which is more powerful then any of those characters in FF7, Sephiroth is even stated the most powerful character, PERIOD.


Kitase is the story creator, Nomura is the character designer, what they say is CANON.



Again, NOTHING contradicts ANYTHING, there is no contradiction whatsoever, Sephiroth is the strongest charatcer, well duh look at what he has power over.



What does Marvel have to do with this? Hulk was never stated above Galactus by Jack Kirby (his creator). Unless you can give me a quote, stop spouting nonsense.



So... wheres the quote?

No one thinks Hulk > Galactus.

Sephiroth > Omega Weiss, yes.. wtf is Omega Weiss gonna do against Sephiroths willpower? Or the NL?

Pyron_Knight
And PAD writes the story of the Hulk.

And Joe Casy who said that Superman could ahve beaten a universe-creator who vaporized Superman's near-equal in one shot.

Like I said, if your argument wins, logic loses.



GASP
Guess what?!
Comic book writers have the exact same thing!



Each story is the writer's own creation and they can do whatever they want with it. You make it sound like Kitase has more power than c omic book writer simply because he made FFVII. Jack Kirby does not have more power over the New Gods than Starlin simply because he made them.



You seem to have a hard-on for these guys' positions. THey made FFVII....and you seem tot hink this grants them a higher pedestal than it does for any other writer who makes a story. Well, it doesn't.



-both simple employees of a company
-both disposable
-both creators of stories
-both writers of stories
-both are dead wrong in what they say

They got a lot in common.

Ivalice
Hulk > galactus? HAH.

Terryc250
Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
And PAD writes the story of the Hulk.

And Joe Casy who said that Superman could ahve beaten a universe-creator who vaporized Superman's near-equal in one shot.

Like I said, if your argument wins, logic loses.

There are THOUSANDS of stories of hulk, and HUNDREDS of writers, some of them dont even have much knowledge of all the characters in marvel. Show me the quote please.

And HOW does logic lose? Even WITHOUT the quote from the creators, if you had any knowledge of the FF7 world, logic would tell you Sephiroth is the strongest, not beacuse of the quote, but because of his powers.


JK/SL never said Hulk is more powerful then Galactus, show quote or it doesn't exist.



If the actual creator of both Hulk and Galactus says Hulk is more powerful then Galactus, then yes, Hulk will be more powerful then Galactus, but did JK/SL say that? No.



One is just a simple writer of ONE story
the other is the creator of the entire story, AND the characters

There is no reason for Nomura and Kitase to be wrong, logic says its true, their words make it true.

VinCon01
Umm...No, actually, he's not. Even the quotes provided earlier don't make that claim.

One of them is obviously referencing his willpower. You bolded the "Nothing is stronger, nothing above him" part of the statement, and that on its own would be enough to say nothing was better (Even then, there's the loophole in which something can be equal). However, that's only half of the statement. They said this directly after referring to his powerful will. This would imply that the second half of the statement was in fact referring to the first part of the statement. Meaning that neither of those is talking about physical or magical strength, but about willpower.


The second one was quite obviously in reference to his standing pre-Nibelheim, seeing as they were talking about the BC era of FFVII. On a side note, one of the new UOGs (For CC or the 10th Anniversary...Can't remember which) states that Genesis' combat abilities are on par with SOLDIER Sephiroths and Zack defeats a fully powered Genesis. This basically puts SOLDIER Sephiroth, Genesis, post-Nibelheim Zack, and possibly Angeal on the same power scale.


Those quotes could be taken as "Sephiroth is the strongest"...If we ignore all but a few parts of the statements. But then, you can turn pretty much anything into a quote working for your argument if you ignore significant parts of the quote. Of course, I'm not saying that Pyron is right. In fact, I think it's quite idiotic to think that the creators can't say what's what in their own fictional world. I'm simply saying that those quotes aren't really considering the entire quote. Just a small part of the quote that means something different when the entire thing is taken into consideration.

Oh, and on another note:

1) Sephiroth doesn't have the power of the planet. He has a rather small portion of the Lifestream.

2) Kitase isn't the Compilation's story creator. Nojima is the one who writes it all, and Kitase/Nomura make changes/additions/edits (Kind of like beta readers, I suppose), with Nomura having more authority. There's at least one interview in which Kitase even states that Nomura rejected his ideas sometimes.

Pyron_Knight
Hey. You're all free to use the words of the writers. If they contradict the game, so what. If they don't make sense logically, so what.
Go nuts.

Terryc250
Originally posted by VinCon01
Umm...No, actually, he's not. Even the quotes provided earlier don't make that claim.

One of them is obviously referencing his willpower. You bolded the "Nothing is stronger, nothing above him" part of the statement, and that on its own would be enough to say nothing was better (Even then, there's the loophole in which something can be equal). However, that's only half of the statement. They said this directly after referring to his powerful will. This would imply that the second half of the statement was in fact referring to the first part of the statement. Meaning that neither of those is talking about physical or magical strength, but about willpower.

"Sephiroth's existence and will is extremely powerful. There is nothing stronger, nothing above him"

This has been already debated on other forums, and your side lost.

There is a period splitting the sentence, if it was reference to the same thing it would be saying "Sephiroth's existence and will is extremely powerful there is nothing above HIS" they are talking clearly about HIM, not HIS willpower, but HIM

The creators are clearly talking about Sephiroths POWER, and how there is nothing above him, and nothing stronger then him

It has been proven that the translation of STRONGER means SUPERIOR

For example there was an interview and kitase said "Yazoo's bullets were failing to hit Cloud, not because Yazoo had bad aim, but because Cloud was too strong"


It was during an interview about CC, Sephiroth being the strongest in the world still puts him above every character in existance at that time, which doesnt change from CC to AC much.

Can you show me that quote? I thought they were SUPPOSEDLY going to make Genesis on par with Sephiroth but they changed that, Zack beat Genesis and then got owned by Sephiroth.



How do you know how much % of the lifestream he has? He's been infecting it for years, a gesture of his hand was enough to cover the city, anyway, a small portion of the lifestream was able to deteriorate Meteor, which can still kill about any FF character.

Kitase is the Director and Scenario writer along with Nojima, Nomura is the character designer and wrote the original scenario concept along with Sakaguchi.

Terryc250
The creators quotes don't contradict anything, so go figure.

VinCon01
I find that doubtful.




Actually, the period doesn't indicate that much.

Bill Gates is extremely rich. There's nothing wealthier, nothing more extravagant. Not true, but that's irrelevant to the example.


According to your logic, those statements aren't connected simply because of the period. "His existence and will is extremely powerful. There is nothing stronger, nothing above him" in no way, shape, or form implies that the second part of the statement is unconnected to the first, simply because of a period. In fact, that those two statements are the ONLY comments made regarding the subject implies that they're directly related.




The creators are clearly talking about Sephiroth's WILL, and how there is nothing with a more powerful WILL.




I would like to see this proof. Because there are a lot of things that "stronger" can mean, and superior isn't one of those definitions. Aside from that, there's still the matter of them referencing his will.




Links would be nice. Then there's the fact that if it was translatedused that way once, it doesn't mean that's the only translation/use. Simply being the same word doesn't automatically give them the same meaning, especially when context is taken into consideration.

And again, there's the matter of them referencing his will.





In the Ultimania Guide, released after that interview, they claim that Genesis' combat abilities are ranked equal to Sephiroth's. Meaning that, as with this entire compilation, the most recent statements override previous ones. It also screws around with the power charts yet again.





"A SOLDIER 1st Class who possesses combat abilities that rank equal to Sephiroth's, and who adheres to his own personal aesthetic. He takes pride in the handsome figure he cuts, his magnificent fighting style and the enthusiastic popularity it garners him, however he does not like mingling directly with people, and only opens himself up to his companions Sephiroth and Angeal."

Personally, I believe the quote is referring to his magic abilities, as he's clearly an inferior swordsman.




He covered a single city. The timeline in her profile in the Anniversary UOG says that, when stopping Meteor, Aerith used a mere portion of the Lifestream. Heck, you admit to being a aware of the fact that a small portion of the overall Lifestream stopped Meteor. This "small portion" covered pretty much the entire planet. If a small portion covers the entire planet, then Sephiroth covering the skies above a single city isn't a sign that he has a lot of it at his disposal.

Oh, and he was infecting it for two years at the most. As far as we're aware, the Negative Lifestream didn't begin forming until Geostigma, which didn't appear until some time between VII and AC.




For FFVII. Not the entire Compilation. Nojima has been doing most of the writing for the Compilation, Kitase and Nomura have been taking on more editorial/co-writer roles, Nomura basically had total control in AC, and based on statements from Tabata and Kitase, Nomura clearly had a lot of control in CC (Kitase even admits that several of his ideas were rejected by Nomura, despite the fact that Nomura is only labeled as a Character Designer in CC).

Darkstorm Zero
Wow....

Looks like someone has forgotten what the rules of Canon material is in a debate...

Sorry PK, but it's the truth, if the creators deem that something is official, then that is so, reguardless of everything else, the Creators are THE authority, because they are the ones who created the material used for the games (And subsequently the material we use for these debates).

I'm sorry this doesn't fulfill your vision of "Perfect Debating" but it is the way it is because the creators have the authority to change whatever suits them in their creation, for example, he could have said that Sephiroth is a gigantic mushroom, and you know what? it would be canon fact, simply because it's theirs.

We need no further confirmation than the word of the creators when it comes to what is/isn't official, because there is no higher authority.

Pyron_Knight
This debate is endless.
I'll go my way, you go yours.

Terryc250
Originally posted by VinCon01



Their talking about the power of Sephiroth, Sephiroth as a whole, his BEING , hence

"His will and his EXISTENCE is extremely powerful, there is nothing stronger, nothing above him."

Logically, it means their is no being stronger then Sephiroth.

theyre not saying "No one has a stronger willpower then his"




Stronger can mean more powerful, more superior, etc.. because from the japanese translation it is LITERALLY translated from japanese to english as "stronger" however the meaning does not mean physically stronger.




I cant find that interview anymore, but it did say something along the lines of that, not that exact context though


Well maybe just it terms of skill, but Sephiroth is way more powerful, i dont think Genesis is capable of cutting up those canons like Sephiroth did, and plus Genesis body was deteriorating, which also explains how Sephiroth easily overpowered Zack, while Genesis lost.


But only a midgar sized lifestream was needed to destroy meteor, as in the ending, as soon as about midgar filled with the lifestream the meteor quickly deteriorated

Midgar is huge, its bar far the biggest city in FF7, although we don't know how much of the lifestream he actually has, midgar sized + his willpower is enough to stop anyone in FF7

fascistcrusader
Vin, the statement is speaking of Sephiroth as a person as well as his will. It says will and existence, not just will, and as pointed out before, it says nothing above him, not nothing above his will.

While the statement doesn't say Sephiroth is the most powerful, merely that nothing is better than him, it does in fact refer to both his will and his power.

MadMel
indeed...
also, just to clear things up
what the creators say >> what the game itself says..
example - geroge lucas is the highest form of canon, not the star wars movies..
if lucas says something, but the movies contradict that, we go with lucas, as he = highest source of canon, and the same goes for FFIIV...

Pyron_Knight
The SW Universe and the Canon Tree is a unique entity. There is no such thing as G-Canon in other fiction.
It's the same shit manga wankers bring up with anime. "But the creators didn't make that!! It's NON-CANON!!!!!!" Of course the idea of canon probably never once crossed the creator's mind but the Japanophiles insist the manga should only be used.
It's all bullshit in the end.

If you all want to debate what some guys think, be my guest. i'll debate the actual games which happen to be the topic of this forum if you had forgotten.

Terryc250
Sephiroth = Strongest in FF7 world period.

and back on topic, FFVII wins.

MadMel
Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
If you all want to debate what some guys think, be my guest. i'll debate the actual games which happen to be the topic of this forum if you had forgotten.
not if the creators make a statement concerning the canon which can affect the fight
if the creators say seph is the strongest in FF7, then hes the stongest in ff7, period..

Kazenji
Originally posted by Pyron_Knight

It's the same shit manga wankers bring up with anime. "But the creators didn't make that!! It's NON-CANON!!!!!!" Of course the idea of canon probably never once crossed the creator's mind but the Japanophiles insist the manga should only be used.
It's all bullshit in the end.


Actually its not bullshit in the end with Manga and Anime, Most of the anime series are based on the manga and now and then when they adapt the manga into the animated series they sometimes do change something.

Blax_Hydralisk
They do all the time, most of the time it's filler.

Only ignorant fools think that the Anime is as canon as the Manga is. laughing out loud

Look at Naruto. They do shit in the anime that they never do in the manga, they're two separate retellings of the same story, really.

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by MadMel
indeed...
also, just to clear things up
what the creators say >> what the game itself says..
example - geroge lucas is the highest form of canon, not the star wars movies..
if lucas says something, but the movies contradict that, we go with lucas, as he = highest source of canon, and the same goes for FFIIV... The Star Wars universe has a very unique and different chain of canon, and can't be compared.

Pyron_Knight
]

Except they're both as canon as one another. The creator of the manga has given the anime company the right to take his creation and improve on it.

VinCon01
His existence...True, I suppose that certainly could be seen as his "being" or him as a whole. If that's what we're taking it as, then I could agree to that. However, I still find it rather vague/ambiguous.




The word "stronger" can mean a great number of things. What I'm asking is why you believe that it specifically refers to being superior in this particular case. Using a different article with a different subject doesn't really work well, as it's...Y'know, a different article on a different subject.




*sighs* FFVII is becoming more like Star Wars, in that sense. Nobody can find any of these accursed interviews anymore, because there are so darn many of them.




Like I said, the only way I can see Genesis as being equal to Sephiroth is if they're talking about his magical abilities. SOLDIER Seph hasn't really shown much in terms of magic, so I could see someone matching/surpassing him in that area. But he's clearly the superior of the two when it comes to melee.

On the note of Genesis' deterioration, that actually helps the case that Post-Nibelheim Zack is as powerful as Genesis and SOLDIER Sephiroth. He struggled with Genesis before his treatments in Nibelheim (During which not only was Genesis deteriorating, but they were fighting with melee, Zack's specialty, rather than magic). Yet after his treatments in Nibelheim, he takes on a fully powered Genesis in his Avatar form, and then a second time in his human form. So the matches went like this:

- Sephiroth vs. Genesis (Deteriorating): Sephiroth appears to be the superior of the two, but Genesis' deterioration had started by this point, and the UOG claims the two were equals in combat ability.

- Zack (Pre-Nibelheim) vs. Genesis (Deteriorating): Despite the fact that they were fighting with Zack's specialty, Zack still struggles with him.

- Zack (Post-Nibelheim) vs. Genesis (Avatar/Fully Powered): Zack appears to basically curbstomp a Genesis who was not only fully powered, but who very well may have been superior to the form that was equal to Sephiroth in combat (His "avatar" form).




Actually, a plent-sized Lifestream was required to stop Meteor. It wasn't just coming up from various places around the planet while the surge in Midgar faced off with Meteor. The Lifestream was connected, and covering the entire planet when it forced by Meteor. Whether or not it was necessary to use so much Lifestream that the planet was covered is unknown, but that's certainly how much was used.




Remember, it's not the size of Midgar. It's big enough to cover the skies above Midgar, and throughout the majority of the battle, is only covering the skies.

As for that being enough to stop anyone in FFVII...I can't completely agree. First off, the only way it's useful in a fight is if he either absorbs it (And seeing as we can't say exactly how much it would enhance him, we can't really use that in an argument), or uses it as a weapon (Which would be useless against people like Cloud, Vincent, or SOLDIER personnel).

So with that in mind, I'd say that Chaos Vincent and Omega Weiss, at the very least, could match him in a fight. They would all have advantages and disadvantages for the other to exploit, but I believe they could keep the playing field even.

Blax_Hydralisk
Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
]

Except they're both as canon as one another. The creator of the manga has given the anime company the right to take his creation and improve on it.

Uh, no. No he hasn't. He has given them the right to take his work and animate it, and then make filler, I.E., bullshit, episodes to take up space so he catch up with his manga. They're two seperate universes. It's similar to how George Lucas has his own Star Wars universe, and then there's EU which is canon in it's own right, but can still be retconned and ultimately, answers to the authority of the movies, which are primary canon.

VinCon01
That pretty much sums it up. When they make an anime based on the manga, the anime isn't what we would call "True Canon." It has its own canon, and it might even fit into continuity with the material it was based on (Such as with the Star Wars novels), but it still takes a back seat to the original, genuine canon (Unless, of course, the creators step in and say something. But I doubt many of the creators would choose someone else's interpretations of their work over their actual work). A couple examples?

Fullmetal Alchemist manga vs. FMA anime. Neither of them are connected, and they each have their own "canon." However, the manga is what we would call "true canon," and is where the line is drawn when it comes to information on the official story. The "real" FMA is the manga, while the anime is a sort of alternate universe.

Hellsing manga vs. Hellsing anime (The first one). As with FMA, neither of them are connected, and they each have their own canon (The manga once again being the "True Canon" unless the writer steps in and says otherwise).


Of course, this is all irrelevant in regards to the fact that the creators have absolute control over canon, and can't be overridden even by the material itself. It sucks for fans sometimes, but a perk of creating your own fictional universe is that you/those who wrote it are the God(s) of that universe.

Terryc250
Its unknown how far the NL stretched out, but its ATLEAST the size of midgar, when it did the above shot the whole city was darkened, and throughout the fight as far as you can see the NL was covered the skies, and it was basically instantaneous as well.



If Sephiroth used the lifestream as a weapon, i don't see how Cloud, Vincent, or Omega Weiss will beable to evade it, its basically instantaneous, and if its capable of damaging meteor its definately capable of damaging any of those guys, plus Sephiroth also has powerful willpower to keep them from moving like he the way he stopped Holy.

Having control over the lifestream is a huge feat, he can do basically anything like he claimed he can transform the planet, plus even the power of Materia comes from the lifestream, its stated in the UOG, that all materia is, is allowing the user to tap into the power of the lifestream, if Sephiroth has control over the lifestream he logically should be able to do anything.

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
Uh, no. No he hasn't. He has given them the right to take his work and animate it, and then make filler, I.E., bullshit, episodes to take up space so he catch up with his manga. They're two seperate universes. It's similar to how George Lucas has his own Star Wars universe, and then there's EU which is canon in it's own right, but can still be retconned and ultimately, answers to the authority of the movies, which are primary canon. So according to you, anime is canon if it doesn't contradict manga. That is what Star Wars EU is.

Darkstorm Zero
In essence it is up to the thread starter to decide which version they wish to use at the start of the thread, then a properly formulated series of canon material can then be debated.

For example, if the threadstarter says "AC Sephiroth" instead of simply "Sephiroth" then everyone knows which version of the character is in question, Another example, perse lets use "Anime Goku vs Anime Naruto", or more relevant to this forum "SF2 Anime Ryu vs SF3 Ryu".

it's entirely up to the thread starter to make sure they 'CLARIFY' what is in the debate and what isn't, thread rules and stipulations for the match and other factors.

This is why threads like "Ryu vs Bison" in the title, then with no thought put into the thread at all we read in the OP (Opening Post), "You know what to do..."

With open ended threads like that, it's far too open ended... there's no detail, theres no substance, heck anyone could argue any form of the character at that point, Bison would wipe Ryu out with a satelie attack and win without lifing a finger...

Obvious curb stomp.

But it could go deeper than that, if we get an open ended close matchup like Hugo vs Zangief, and it's completely open ended, then we have the highest potential for flame wars to start, simply because one group of debaters completely will not tolerate the oppinions of the other side, and vice versa, and because it's open ended, anything could be used.

Please people, to avoid this kind of useless arguments, put some deep thpught into your threads, make them worth while, challenging, but not fostering the need for heated arguments that furn to flame wars for stupid reasons.

VinCon01
And again, we really do have an idea of how far it stretched out, and it wasn't especially thick. It covered the skies above Midgar/Edge, but there are several gaps through which you can see the light from the sky above the NL. It's really nothing compared to what was used to throw Meteor back.





1) Again, it took enough Lifestream to cover the planet to destroy Meteor. Sephiroth has nothing on that scale. He covered Midgar and Edge with the NL, and the sky was visible through it. The Lifestream used to stop Meteor covered the entire planet (And big as the city may be, it's nothing remotely close to that size).


2) Chaos Vincent is literally a being created by the Lifestream. Why on Earth do you think the Lifestream would harm him? Omega Weiss is a being empowered by the Lifestream, whose power increases as he gets more. Why on Earth do you think being hit with even more of it would harm him? Cloud was thrown into the Lifestream itself. Why do you think Sephiroth's considerably smaller stash of Negative Lifestream would hurt him any more than that?

3) Willpower =/= Holding people back. We have no idea how his "willpower" held Holy back. It may not even be a physical thing. He may have simply been restraining it via the Lifestream. He might be able to use telekinesis to restrain them, but using his will to hold back a spell doesn't really give us much to go on. Even then, the limits of his telekinesis aren't known, as the party breaks free of it (Whether this was intentional on his part or not isn't really known).



1) And again, he only has control over an incredibly small portion of it, seeing as a mere portion of the Lifestream was able to cover the entire planet, and his merely covered a single city.

2) I doubt it would literally "transform the planet." It would transform the Lifestream into Negative Lifestream, and possibly waste the planet in the same way that Omega would, though.

3) You don't need to give me information from the UOG, trust me. Either way, the UOG's explanation isn't necessary, as Sephiroth explains it during Nibelheim in the game.

4) And that brings up yet another problem. The Lifestream doesn't grant a single set of abilities. Different materia, different pieces of the crystallized Lifestream, bring about different effects. As such, we have no clue what abilities Sephiroth would gain from the section of the Lifestream he controls, assuming that the Negative Lifestream works in the same way as the normal Lifestream. This is also a problem in that Kadaj, Loz, and Yazoo are capable of controlling Negative Lifestream to some degree (And are in fact composed of Lifestream), yet still require materia to use magic.

Terryc250
Originally posted by VinCon01
And again, we really do have an idea of how far it stretched out, and it wasn't especially thick. It covered the skies above Midgar/Edge, but there are several gaps through which you can see the light from the sky above the NL. It's really nothing compared to what was used to throw Meteor back.

There will always be small gaps, even when the lifestream supposedly covered the planet, there was gaps, it streteched out atleast as far as midgar and as far passed as the eye can see.





Because Sephiroth is in controlled of it? Theres a difference between lifestream thats just floating there, and lifestream used as a weapon (like against meteor) Chaos may have been physically created by the lifestream but it doesn't mean lifestream isn't capable of harming him just as a sword can, humans are made by humans and they can harm eachother, hell everything in FF7 is in one way made by the lfiestream, and they can harm eachother, and it was work the same way with Omega, Sephiroth is capable of infecting the lifestream, Omega is lifestream, and i wouldn't doubt it if Sephiroth would beable to take control of Omega, Cloud would just die like any other human by the lifestream


He was obviously bringing them in and slashing them back, they were all instantaneously brought in together, then Sephiroth brings them in the fight, Sephiroth with just a look brought down the top of the building in AC, and throughout FF7 held Holy.



Again, we don't know the limits of how much he controls, with a gesture he instantly covered the skies + more of midgar


Omega would waste the planet and fly himself off to another planet, Sephiroth would keep the planet alive however under HIS control, and to be able to pilot the ship, he much need to transform it in a way somehow.

Materia TAPS into the power of the lifestream, it borrows the lifestreams power, different materia taps into different forces of the lifestream, the SHM hold minimal power of the lifestream they are just weak renmants, Sephiroth is Jenova itself, he controls the J-cells at its full.

SHM
It was already proved to VinCon in another forum, that the SHM did use magic. They were using "Summon magic" to summon(duh!) the Shadow Creepers, without the aid of Materia. The Reunion Files even states the Creepers are called Summons with a capital 'S', like any other Summon in the series.
But VinCon is too stubborn to admit being wrong. For example:



His previous argument was destroyed by the evidence presented, living him without any refute, in the quote above. But he still can't admit being wrong.

VinCon01
It wasn't proven anywhere. I repeatedly asked for the one I was arguing with to tell me where they're referred to as such in the Reunion Files, and they repeatedly refused to provide a page number, or even the general section in which it was stated. Of course, this isn't even taking into consideration the various typos and mistranslations scattered throughout the Reunion Files (For example, referring to Cloud as a SOLDIER during the Nibelheim period).

Oh, and I'm still waiting for that page number.




Actually, I'm quite capable of admitting when I'm wrong. In fact, I do so pretty often. Just not when there's a clear flaw in the argument I'm presented with.




True, this is true.




1) How is there a difference between the two? Their effects are exactly the same. The only difference is that one actually has some physical force behind it due to the fact that it's moving.

2) An incredibly flawed analogy if I've ever seen one. A living thing gives birth to a living thing and can still harm it is the same as a living thing being harmed by the substance that created it? Major difference, friend.

3) Um...No. Everything is not "made by the Lifestream." Everything has Spirit Energy, but they aren't physically composed of Lifestream. Again, your analogy is incredibly flawed. You're comparing a being giving birth to another being having the ability to harm that second being, and a being created and at least partially composed of a non-living substance being harmed by that substance. You're basically saying that because a human can harm a human it created, water can hurt ice.

4) It's unlikely that Sephiroth could control Omega. He would actually have to corrupt the Lifestream it was composed of before he could do something like that. And if we're talking about Omega Weiss, then he would have to deal with Weiss' consciousness as well.




1) Again, not really. He was bringing them all in and slashing them back at first, yes. However, then they made their little inspiration speech, and all of them charge him. There's no way of knowing if they broke out themselves, or if he released them. Especially since AC's opening shows them all charging him at the same time.

2) Seriously, he was holding back Holy with his willpower.




Again, we do know the limits of what he controls. He controls what we see. Saying he could control more is flawed, as there's no basis for him controlling more than what we see. What he had was enough to cover the skies of Midgar/Edge. No more, no less. It only covered any space under the skies for a few moments, and is never seen in the battlefield again, simply remaining in the skies above.




The planet doesn't need to be alive for him to use it as a vessel. Jenova rode on a crappy hunk of meteor when she crashed to the planet, so Sephiroth could likely do the same. Odds are, he would want to absorb it at some point or another, as was his original plan.




...The SHM hold minimal power of the Lifestream? They have more Lifestream in them than Sephiroth...Heck, the only beings with more Lifestream in them are summons and WEAPONS. Kadaj, Loz, and Yazoo are completely composed of Lifestream. They create the Shadow Creepers in seconds with a gesture. I don't see how that is "minimal control."

Heck, if "having the Lifestream" as a weapon is a simple enough excuse to have more magic, then they should have MORE than Sephiroth, seeing as he simply controls it, while they're both composed of it, and control it. Yet they don't.

Terryc250
Originally posted by VinCon01
1) How is there a difference between the two? Their effects are exactly the same. The only difference is that one actually has some physical force behind it due to the fact that it's moving.
Lifestream is different in many ways, when it was just floating there, Cloud survived being in it, same with Tifa, when it was ATTACKING, meteor, meteor was being disitegrated, towns were being destroyed, Denzels mom was exposed to it and died instantly.

Chaos is a physical solid being created by the lifestream so is Omega WEAPON, it does not mean they are immune to being attacked with it, ice is created by water yet it would be destroyed by a powerful water force, and the ice will just follow the flow and become part of the water, in Sephiroth case, the negative lifestream.


If he attacked Omega with the NL, most likely the J-cells would infect him.


In AC all it did was show them attacking, in FF7 he brought them in to 'engage battle' most likely he let them fight.


Been over this a thousand times, willpower, TK are the the same thing, FF7 never used the word "telekinesis" but they are capable of doing the exact same things, holding/moving things in place with his mind power.




Midgar is huge, and it covered ATLEAST that, because normally you can see the skies from hundreds of miles away to the mountains for example that are waay beyond the city, during Sephiroths fight, it was covering as far as the eye can see.



SHM have more control over the lifestream then Sephiroth? wtf.. they were CREATED by Sephiroth, they are completely composed of the NEGATIVE lifestream, and why is the NEGATIVE lifestream referred to as NEGATIVE? Because they are infected by J-cells, and who are the J-cells by? JENOVA, and who is JENOVA? Sephiroth.

With a gesture they created Negative lifestream shadow creepers.. Sephiroth with a gesture covered the entire skies with Negative Lifestream


Being composed of it does not equal having control of all of it in the planet, Sephiroth has complete control over J-cells because he is the new form of Jenova, he was the one who infected it in the first place, SHM are just weak remnants of Sephiroth, he created them, for the purpose of restoring himself, SHM cannot use the full power of the negative lifestream, you would need complete control over J-Cells to do that which SHM don't have, only Jenova(Sephiroth) does.

Csdabest
Anime can be seen as both canon and ampliyers. To story and give vidid definition to to the abilities. But as soon as the Anime starts to contradict. What ever contradicts the truth has to be given priority to the manga

SHM
Originally posted by VinCon01
It wasn't proven anywhere. I repeatedly asked for the one I was arguing with to tell me where they're referred to as such in the Reunion Files, and they repeatedly refused to provide a page number, or even the general section in which it was stated. Of course, this isn't even taking into consideration the various typos and mistranslations scattered throughout the Reunion Files (For example, referring to Cloud as a SOLDIER during the Nibelheim period).

Oh, and I'm still waiting for that page number.

It was proven in the movie. Did you watch it? They summoned the Creepers without the aid of Materia.

And that's a translation of the UOG. In the end of it, you will find information about the Reunion Files:

http://faqs.ign.com/articles/698/698416p1.html

Go to the "Character and plot notes" section, and you will find this:





Then stop ignoring the fact the SHM used magic(Summons) without Materia.
Stop ignoring the fact Sephiroth can use magic without Materia. Stop underrating him all the time.

Pyron_Knight
Stop overrating him all the time.
For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
He's yours.

SHM
Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Stop overrating him all the time.
For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
He's yours.

You are just pissed because your flawed argument was destroyed, and you got owned by everyone in this thread.

Pyron_Knight
Pissed at what?
The defeat of logic by fanboy bullshit?
Anyone with half-a-brain would be pissed off at your retarded argument that what someone says, even if it blatantly contradicts their work and the very core of reason, should be accepted.
Such blind fealty might be good when serving a dictator but it's lousy for debating facts.

Dark-Jaxx
Feats always>Statements.

A writer has stated that Superman Prime could take anyone but PR Beyonder.

Guess that makes it true.

EvilAngel
I disagree Jaxx.

I think in that statement he's saying SMP has the power to do so. But then a Chocobo has the power to peck into Sephiroth's brain, thus killing him, but doesn't mean it's going to happen ;p


If the creator says something, then it goes above all else. It is their creation, they can do what they want.

Neo Darkhalen
is this allowed?

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by EvilAngel
I disagree Jaxx.

I think in that statement he's saying SMP has the power to do so. But then a Chocobo has the power to peck into Sephiroth's brain, thus killing him, but doesn't mean it's going to happen ;p


If the creator says something, then it goes above all else. It is their creation, they can do what they want. 1. No, he literally means SMP can beat anyone under PR Beyonder. no expression

Also, the writer of WWH stated that WWH beat Sentry, and said Sentry is the most powerful superhero in the universe, when many are stronger(Cough*Thor*Cough*Silver Surfer).

2. But sometimes the creator or writers can be idiotic morons. Or just say stupid crap.

I am not saying Seph is weaker than Omega Weiss, Chaos, or whatever, only that feats>Statements.

EvilAngel
Well, that's them trying to make their characters the best, like a certain roleplay thread i know of. None the less. Statements normally > feats of any kind.

That is fact and period. Also as the creator of something you can say and do what you want with it, that part is law, or so i believe.

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by EvilAngel
Well, that's them trying to make their characters the best, like a certain roleplay thread i know of. None the less. Statements normally > feats of any kind.

That is fact and period. Also as the creator of something you can say and do what you want with it, that part is law, or so i believe. 1. I can turn this around and say the FFVII guys say Sephiroth is strongest because they like him best. Statements are fine when supported by feats, when they aren't, they hold no weight. You can't say some statements are true but others aren't when both instances show a lack of proof.

Let's say a writer says Sephiroth can lift a building singlehanded.

Then in-game he gets crushed by a falling truck and is badly injured by it.

What holds more weight, the feat or the statement?

2. No it isn't. Otherwise we have to accept Superman Prime>Everyone but PR Beyonder level or above, and Sentry could beat Silver Surfer(lol).

Terryc250
Sephiroth does have feats that put him at the most powerful being in FF7.. he infected the lifestream, took over, he held Holy with his willpower for months, that alone puts him above anything any other character has done.

The creators statements are just additional proof that he's the most powerful being.

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by Terryc250
Sephiroth does have feats that put him at the most powerful being in FF7.. he infected the lifestream, took over, he held Holy with his willpower for months, that alone puts him above anything any other character has done. He infected a tiny portion of the Lifestream. And don't give me that covered Midgar crap, Midgar isn't even equal to 1/10 of the planet. Held Holy with WILLPOWER. Fat load that would do in a fight.

Oh, and Omega was going to absorb the whole Lifestream. That>anything Sephiroth has done.

Terryc250
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
1. No, he literally means SMP can beat anyone under PR Beyonder. no expression

Also, the writer of WWH stated that WWH beat Sentry, and said Sentry is the most powerful superhero in the universe, when many are stronger(Cough*Thor*Cough*Silver Surfer).

2. But sometimes the creator or writers can be idiotic morons. Or just say stupid crap.

I am not saying Seph is weaker than Omega Weiss, Chaos, or whatever, only that feats>Statements.

Umm first of all, the writer never claimed Sentry is the most powerful superhero in the universe. SPIDER-MAN said Sentry was the most powerful superhero(or human, i forgot which he said) in the GALAXY, and blackbolt was second until WWH kicked his ass

Stop twisting things into "writer said this and that" when you aren't even giving a remotely accurate quote.

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by Terryc250
Umm first of all, the writer never claimed Sentry is the most powerful superhero in the universe. SPIDER-MAN said Sentry was the most powerful superhero(or human, i forgot which he said) in the GALAXY, and blackbolt was second until WWH kicked his ass

Stop twisting things into "writer said this and that" when you aren't even giving a remotely accurate quote. http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=12365

CBR News sat down one last time with "WWH" writer Greg Pak for his thoughts on the battle set to answer the question of who's the strongest one in the Marvel Universe? The Green King or the Golden Guardian of Good? Let's get ready to rumble! (TM)
Greg Pak: "Of course, a match-up such as this is likely to be determined not by internal factors but instead by pure, brute strength. Or is it? "The Sentry's power approaches the cosmic," Pak explained. "The Hulk's the strongest one there is. Can a cosmic level hero withstand the mightiest blows of the strongest one there is? Can the strongest one there is survive a cosmic level assault? You'll have to read 'World War Hulk' #5 to find out"


Okay, I got the quote wrong, Hulk is the "strongest there is" lol.

Terryc250
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
He infected a tiny portion of the Lifestream. And don't give me that covered Midgar crap, Midgar isn't even equal to 1/10 of the planet. Held Holy with WILLPOWER. Fat load that would do in a fight.

Oh, and Omega was going to absorb the whole Lifestream. That>anything Sephiroth has done.

How would that be a "fat load" in a fight? He held all 8 characters with his willpower, he brought down the top of the shinra building with just a thought, he held Holy which is capable of "ending everything", explain how that wouldn't be useful in a fight if he used it to its full potential?

Omega was going to absorb the lifestream? Ur point..? So was Sephiroth in FF7, in AC He took over the lifestream, a tiny portion? Where is ur proof that he took over a tiny portion? With a gesture he covered as far as the eye can see, it was most likely BEYOND midgar because it was as far passed as the eye can see, and you can normally see CLouds from mountains way beyond the city, in the fight against Cloud/Seph you couldn't see any normal clouds at all.

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by Terryc250
How would that be a "fat load" in a fight? He held all 8 characters with his willpower, he brought down the top of the shinra building with just a thought, he held Holy which is capable of "ending everything", explain how that wouldn't be useful in a fight if he used it to its full potential?

Omega was going to absorb the lifestream? Ur point..? So was Sephiroth in FF7, in AC He took over the lifestream, a tiny portion? Where is ur proof that he took over a tiny portion? With a gesture he covered as far as the eye can see, it was most likely BEYOND midgar because it was as far passed as the eye can see, and you can normally see CLouds from mountains way beyond the city, in the fight against Cloud/Seph you couldn't see any normal clouds at all. 1. Because it was willpower. He used weak ass TK to hold the party, and some TK to topple the building. They aren't related.

2. Yeah, but he needed to use Meteor to do it in FFVII. Prove he took over the entire Lifestream in AC.

Terryc250
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
1. Because it was willpower. He used weak ass TK to hold the party, and some TK to topple the building. They aren't related.

2. Yeah, but he needed to use Meteor to do it in FFVII. Prove he took over the entire Lifestream in AC.

1) wtf is the difference between "TK" and "willpower" ? It has never been called "telekinesis" but it is the same thing, controlling something with his MIND

2) "About to absorb the lifestream" isn't a feat at all in the first place.



Being strongest there is, isnt normally translated to the strongest in the omniverse, logically when people read that they translate it to Strongest in the world

When they say Donovan Bailey was the fastest there is, they dont mean Donovan Bailey was the fastest in the universe, they mean he is the fastest in the world.

Why do you think they say "The Sentry's power approaches the cosmic"
Meaning Sentrys power rival's cosmic heralds.

So basically it means can Sentry whos power rivals cosmic heralds, survive blows from the worlds strongest being? (which makes sense.)

Instead of can Sentry survive blows from the strongest being in the omniverse? (makes no sense.)

EvilAngel
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
1. I can turn this around and say the FFVII guys say Sephiroth is strongest because they like him best. Statements are fine when supported by feats, when they aren't, they hold no weight. You can't say some statements are true but others aren't when both instances show a lack of proof.

Let's say a writer says Sephiroth can lift a building singlehanded.

Then in-game he gets crushed by a falling truck and is badly injured by it.

What holds more weight, the feat or the statement?

2. No it isn't. Otherwise we have to accept Superman Prime>Everyone but PR Beyonder level or above, and Sentry could beat Silver Surfer(lol).

1) You'll do anything to win this point won't you?

Well tough luck, their character, anything they say goes, legal works supports that, which btw > anything you have to say.


2) I'm gonig to assume the same person doesn't own every character in that universe. Therefore his words do not hold the same weight.


P.S Common mistake, Omega never abosrbed the lifestream the same way other beings do, he was a mere container for it. It's purpose was to take it to another planet.

SHM
Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Pissed at what?
The defeat of logic by fanboy bullshit?
Anyone with half-a-brain would be pissed off at your retarded argument that what someone says, even if it blatantly contradicts their work and the very core of reason, should be accepted.
Such blind fealty might be good when serving a dictator but it's lousy for debating facts.

Facts are: FFVII wouldn't exist if not because of them.
So...

Statements of FFVII's team > FFVII itself >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your opinion about THEIR story.




What she said.

FFVII team owns everything in FFVII universe. But the writer of WWH doesn't owns everything in Marvel universe. That's the difference.



Sephiroth was using his willpower to hold Holy in place, while using his TK to hold the party in place. "Both" power(s) that comes from his mind. Yeah, not related at all. roll eyes (sarcastic)
Stop arguing semantics. His TK and willpower can do the same thing, there is no difference between them.





And about the Negative Lifestream, this is what was stated by the creators:



He didn't took over the entire Lifestream, but we don't know the full size of the Negative one.

SHM
Ah, and I would pay a lot of money to see PK meeting Nomura, or Kitase, or Nojima, and trying to correct them about their own story.

That would be so fuc*ing pathetic and hilarious! laughing

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by EvilAngel
1) You'll do anything to win this point won't you?

Well tough luck, their character, anything they say goes, legal works supports that, which btw > anything you have to say.


2) I'm gonig to assume the same person doesn't own every character in that universe. Therefore his words do not hold the same weight.


P.S Common mistake, Omega never abosrbed the lifestream the same way other beings do, he was a mere container for it. It's purpose was to take it to another planet. 1. But their GAME does not, the feats do not, and feats>statements.

So if he is crushed by a truck and they say he can lift a building, we disregard the feat and say he can lift a building?

2. Sure they do, just like Kitase does not own everything in FFVII. Shit, like PK said, Square could boot his ass(we won't get that lucky) and give his job to anyone they wanted.

Pyron_Knight
Originally posted by SHM
Ah, and I would pay a lot of money to see PK meeting Nomura, or Kitase, or Nojima, and trying to correct them about their own story.

That would be so fuc*ing pathetic and hilarious! laughing

It be almost as pathetic and hilarious as your entire "argument' here.

"IGNORE reason, logic and THE GAME ITSELF because the game creators are more important."

You know WHY they are important?

Because of the game and no other effin' reason.

We're debating Final Fantasy VII. NOT the retards who made it and what they think. ESPECIALLY when it flatout contradicts evidence from the games.

EvilAngel
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
1. But their GAME does not, the feats do not, and feats>statements.

So if he is crushed by a truck and they say he can lift a building, we disregard the feat and say he can lift a building?

2. Sure they do, just like Kitase does not own everything in FFVII. Shit, like PK said, Square could boot his ass(we won't get that lucky) and give his job to anyone they wanted.


1. No if's no buts, legal works backs them, it's called tough s**t.


Kitase speaks on behalf of the whole FF7 team. That was declared. Go back and read the top of the interview, I'm sure that is mentioned.

It's a moot point, if it's happened, give me the actual example. It hasn't so drop it.


Just because Marvel and/or capcom has several writers constantly trying to outdo each other doesn't mean all companies are the same. FF7 is a story, so one should and must assume their saying Sephiroth is the strongest is significant for certain reasons that are or may be plot related.


To be honest Jaxx i care less you don't like it. That's the way it is, is the way it should and will be treated.

Neo Darkhalen
come on people can we liven up with each other please.

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by EvilAngel
1. No if's no buts, legal works backs them, it's called tough s**t.


Kitase speaks on behalf of the whole FF7 team. That was declared. Go back and read the top of the interview, I'm sure that is mentioned.

It's a moot point, if it's happened, give me the actual example. It hasn't so drop it.


Just because Marvel and/or capcom has several writers constantly trying to outdo each other doesn't mean all companies are the same. FF7 is a story, so one should and must assume their saying Sephiroth is the strongest is significant for certain reasons that are or may be plot related.


To be honest Jaxx i care less you don't like it. That's the way it is, is the way it should and will be treated. 1. Nope, it's called a bunch of morons who can't give their characters any feats to back their claims up.

2. Sure, he does, which only shows how they are all in fact morons in the case of power consistency.

3. But he doesn't really show it. I go by what I see when it comes to things like this, there are times when we must use logic and feats to judge things like this, statements don't amount to anything.

4. Nah. Omega>Sephiroth.

XJezebelX
I much preffered FFVIII.

EvilAngel
1-3) Not even gonna bother, you're problem.


4) .......... *slap* .......

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by EvilAngel
1-3) Not even gonna bother, you're problem.


4) .......... *slap* ....... 1. Nah, I don't have a problem.

2. Why would you hit me!? sad

EvilAngel
Because you're being annoying, according to you, the writers and creators of games are "Morons". Then just don't play them, and don't debate/talk about them. It's that simple.


Seems you have a real problem trusting people IMO. You must see it with your own eyes, otherwise it can't be so. I don't envy you.

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by EvilAngel
Because you're being annoying, according to you, the writers and creators of games are "Morons". Then just don't play them, and don't debate/talk about them. It's that simple.


Seems you have a real problem trusting people IMO. You must see it with your own eyes, otherwise it can't be so. I don't envy you. 1. Well they are, in the sense they can't be consistent with their characters abilities.

2. They say he is strongest. He has done nothing to prove it. If they say he is strongest, they should give him a feat to prove it.

EvilAngel
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
1. Well they are, in the sense they can't be consistent with their characters abilities.

2. They say he is strongest. He has done nothing to prove it. If they say he is strongest, they should give him a feat to prove it.

1. Not really, they just don't want to make up some random battle to appease people like you, who need to see those things to believe.

2. Who cares? Only you and Pyron Knight apparently

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by EvilAngel
1. Not really, they just don't want to make up some random battle to appease people like you, who need to see those things to believe.

2. Who cares? Only you and Pyron Knight apparently 1. No, but he should have better feats than what he currently has.

2. Appealing to the Majority fallacy.

EvilAngel
1. Like when? Name me a time he couldn't done so, without changing the plot lines of the stories and Animes thus far.

2. ....K.....W/E

SHM
The games are just a way the creators uses to present their ideas. If they decide to present it, in the form of a book, movie, or interview(instead of a game), it's still their ideas, only presented in a diferent format. It's still canon.

Everything comes from their heads. If you say the ideas presented by them in interviews aren't canon, then we can all say the ideas presented by them in the games aren't canon either.

You two(PK and Jaxx) are basing your argument on the notion that FFVII is canon, only if presented in media format. But that's bullshit you two picked from your asses. There is no rule stating that a story, to be canon, have to be presented in one format only.

And stop with the "contradicting the story" bullshit. Sephiroth didn't have "impressive feats" because he wanted to prolong the fight with Cloud and make him suffer. Something that wouldn't be possible if he used his full power from the beginning.
There is no contradiction.

Terryc250
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
1. Nope, it's called a bunch of morons who can't give their characters any feats to back their claims up.

2. Sure, he does, which only shows how they are all in fact morons in the case of power consistency.

3. But he doesn't really show it. I go by what I see when it comes to things like this, there are times when we must use logic and feats to judge things like this, statements don't amount to anything.

4. Nah. Omega>Sephiroth.

1) Willpower strong enough to hold a destruction capable of ending everything, infecting lifestream, creating a plague, gaining power over the negative lifestream, becoming the new Jenova entity, threatened to transform the entire planet into his own vessel raiding other planets

2) How so?

3) Sephiroth has more feats then Omega, Sephiroth was stated above any other character by the creators themselves, stop kidding yourself.

4) Ok, so what feats does Omega have that puts him above Sephiroth? The fact that he can be a container of lifestream to bring the lifestream to another planet?

VinCon01
...When were any towns "being destroyed" at all? The only things destroyed in that confrontation were Meteor, and the sections of Midgar below Meteor (But that was due to Meteor, rather than the Lifestream).

As for Denzel's mother? She died in Sector Seven, after the pillar collapsed.




No, they really aren't. Willpower and telekinesis are hardly "the same thing." Telekinesis deals in physically holding things back. Willpower doesn't deal with that. Sephiroth kept his mind from being caught in the flow of the Lifestream through willpower. Something that isn't remotely physical.




It wasn't covering as far as the eye can see. We don't really get much of a view of the area beyond where Cloud and Sephiroth are fighting.




It's not "most likely" that he brought them to him and let them fight at all. There's nothing indicating what happened there. It's just as likely that they broke free as it is that he let them loose willingly.




1) I never said that they did have more control over it than him. That's simply how it should work, given what they're composed of as compared to what Sephiroth is composed of.

2) Except Kadaj, Loz, and Yazoo have absolutely no Jenova Cells in them whatsoever. The entire reason why they needed the children was because without Jenova Cells, they were incapable of sensing her themselves. They're composed of Negative Lifestream, but NL doesn't particularly contain Jenova Cells. It's simply an altered Lifestream, much like Stagnant Lifestream.




Sephiroth summoning the NL doesn't really have much to do with the point I was making on that one. I'm simply saying that their control is in no way, shape, or form minor.




I never said that being composed of it did equal having control of all of it in the planet. Oh, and you wouldn't need Jenova Cells to have complete control over the Negative Lifestream. In fact, as shown by Kadaj, Loz, and Yazoo, you don't even need to have Jenova Cells to control it.




And that doesn't qualify as "magic" any more than Cloud's Bladebeam or Sephiroth's Lakiri do.




I actually had to lamo at that. Ryu's RF information in his UOG translations are not direct translations from the UOG. And please, don't lecture me on that FAQ. I talked to the guy who translated and posted it on a regular basis, and have read over it multiple times.

Oh, and I actually have the Reunion Files. Something that really amuses me, as people often refer to Ryu's summaries of the information without actually having the Reunion Files themselves. Heck, I've even seen people claim that the information was from the UOG.

Don't get me wrong, Ryu is an excellent translator, and I trust any information he provides. However, aside from the fact that the SCs are also referred to as summons without the capital "s," I would have to talk to him personally again to see if that was an accurate translation, seeing as there are a plethora of mistranslations and typos in the Reunion Files. For example, the translation in Tifa's profile referring to her as a "koibito" (lover in the literal sense) wasn't translated very well into English, and there was a point in which the English translation referred to Cloud as a SOLDIER.




Stop ignoring the fact that the SHM don't use magic without materia. Stop ignoring the fact that Sephiroth has never been shown using magic without materia. Stop overrating him all the time.

And a suggestion for future debates? Don't try to argue with materials that you don't actually have access to. Because arguing with basic summaries of what's in the material doesn't work out too well.




Omega WEAPON? Nothing really. The only thing we've seen from Omega is its uber-barrier thing. Now, if we're talking about Omega Weiss, that's another matter, as his speed outclasses pretty much anything we've seen from another character besides Chaos Vincent.

Terryc250
Originally posted by VinCon01
When were any towns "being destroyed" at all? The only things destroyed in that confrontation were Meteor, and the sections of Midgar below Meteor (But that was due to Meteor, rather than the Lifestream).

As for Denzel's mother? She died in Sector Seven, after the pillar collapsed.

Denzels FOSTER mother died as soon as she was exposed to the lifestream that was attacking meteor, the fact that lifestream power source to everything in FF7 and can disintegrate meteor, fairly quickly is enough to know its a force not to be reckoned with


Again, it has NEVER been stated as TELEKINESIS in FF7, so what difference is it if he holds Holy making it immovable, lifting up the whole party and torturing them, taking down the top of the shinra building, all with the power of the mind, either definition it makes no difference.



Just look in the distance between buildings, theres nothing but NL as far as you can see.



So they all just somehow "fly" in similtaneously? Just like a second earlier when he was bringing them in and slashing them back?



Again, Sephiroth CREATED the SHM, Sephiroth CREATED the NL, why should it work that SHM have more control over the NL when Sephiroth creates both of them?


Where has it been stated SHM have "absolutly no Jenova Cells"? They are physical manifestations of Sephiroth afterall, even if they were created by the NL, the Jenova Cells were the first reason NL came to existence, when Sephiroth merged with the lfiestream contaminating it with J-cells.



I'm still waiting on where ur getting the info on SHM have absolutely no J-cells, keep in mind that they ARE weak remnants of Sephiroth, and the NL was originally created by J-cells, logically they should have small control over the NL.



Keep in mind that we've never AC Sephiroth at 100%, also remember that Loz is a weak remnant of Sephiroth and look at his speed, Sephiroth is far more powerful then all 3 combined even when he's not going at 100%, you can imagine how fast he should be at 100%, creators even state theres nothing above him.

fascistcrusader
Whoa there, champ, Vin hardly underrates Sephiroth. He and myself have been discussing FF VII for years, he knows what he's talking about.

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by EvilAngel
1. Like when? Name me a time he couldn't done so, without changing the plot lines of the stories and Animes thus far.

2. ....K.....W/E One obvious one is better speed feats, as Chaos currently crushes him in that department.

EvilAngel
You didn't answer what i asked.

I said:

Name me a time when he could have shown better feats that doesn't alter the plot lines of any of the stories thus far.

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by EvilAngel
You didn't answer what i asked.

I said:

Name me a time when he could have shown better feats that doesn't alter the plot lines of any of the stories thus far. AC, when fighting Cloud, speed feats. Like using massive speed to give Cloud small nicks and cuts to torture him and turn him even more emo.

EvilAngel
Then everyone would've realised the difference and all jumped in to help. Thus altering the story.

Got another one?

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by EvilAngel
Then everyone would've realised the difference and all jumped in to help. Thus altering the story.

Got another one? The difference between Seph and Cloud was obvious from the beginning. no expression

Catching Cloud's sword with one hand. That would be kewl.

EvilAngel
Not really, i mean the difference in power. It doesn't appear that big at all, least thats how i saw it.

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by EvilAngel
Not really, i mean the difference in power. It doesn't appear that big at all, least thats how i saw it. Seph during the fight was barely trying, and not even exerting himself, he dropped a building on him dude...

EvilAngel
Yeah but, not so big that their faith wouldn't be enough to believe Cloud could pull through ;p

Dark-Jaxx
...He dropped a building on him!!!!

EvilAngel
Cloud can cut through buildings........?

Dark-Jaxx
No he can't, he can cut through small chunks of buildings.

EvilAngel
Yeah but.. the whole thing didn't drop on him as a whole.... does it really matter?

Point is, if Sephiroth had used the alleged speed he has, he'd have killed Cloud before he could blink

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by EvilAngel
Yeah but.. the whole thing didn't drop on him as a whole.... does it really matter?

Point is, if Sephiroth had used the alleged speed he has, he'd have killed Cloud before he could blink Yeah, which is why I said make it a situation where he, in his arrogant nature, only deals really minor cuts and nicks.

EvilAngel
Yeah but Sephiroth doesn't work like that. He likes to make you think you have a chance.

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by EvilAngel
Yeah but Sephiroth doesn't work like that. He likes to make you think you have a chance. Which is part of what makes Seph a PIS factory.

EvilAngel
Meh, true.

I ran out of things to say now no expression

Pyron_Knight
FFVIII GFs vs. FFVII Summons be pretty interested IMO.

Pyron_Knight
Since SHM and Fascist blow FFVII but Vin seems reasonable.....
Is it true that the new Ultimania says Minerva isn't the uber powerful goddess that the other fanboys claim?

Terryc250
Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Since SHM and Fascist blow FFVII but Vin seems reasonable.....
Is it true that the new Ultimania says Minerva isn't the uber powerful goddess that the other fanboys claim?

... are you even reading the replies? SHM and I state FACTS, Vin is being shut down but just wont admit that hes wrong

Minerva is the concience of the lifestream, the goddess of the planet

SHM
Originally posted by Terryc250
Minerva is the concience of the lifestream, the goddess of the planet

Or just a Summon that represents the will of the planet. At least that's what the CC Ultimania compared her to. To a Summon.

But then, there is a chance she could tap into the power of the planet, because of her nature(represantation of it's will). Like the Living Tribunal being the represantation of TOAA's will, and taping into his/it's power when necessary.
Who knows? Minerva is still a big mistery.

And Terry, PK thinks his opinion is more important than statements from FFVII's team at Square-Enix.
If the word of the creators cannot convince him that he is wrong and full of shit, do you think YOU can?! Don't waste your time.

SHM
I found it.

Everything revealed so far, about Goddess Minerva:

http://ultimania.ff7compilation.net/ff7cc/goddess.php

SHM
Originally posted by VinCon01
And that doesn't qualify as "magic" any more than Cloud's Bladebeam or Sephiroth's Lakiri do.

This is why I don't like to debate with you. You are so full of yourself, you believe your own assumptions are facts.
Cloud and Sephiroth use their own spirit energy to perform Blade Beam and Iakiri. The SHM use an external force(the NL) to summon creatures.
Limit Breaks are completely different than Summon magic. Because in FFVII, using the Lifestream(Negative or not) to summon monsters, is considered magic Vin. Not Limit Break. roll eyes (sarcastic)

But I'm sure you will find another of your assumptions to counter me. This is what you do best, after all.

The rest of your post was just you, saying you have the Files, knows the guy who translated the UOG, and inflating your own ego because of that.

Go back to GameFAQs and the Sephiroth haters who believe in your bulshit. That place is full of them.

VinCon01
Meant to post this last night, but got sidetracked. If you count sleeping as getting sidetracked <_<



Ah, his foster mother then. I didn't bother to go back and look at that, seeing as I recalled his mother (And father, if I'm not mistaken) being killed in the pillar collapse. Indeed, it did kill her instantly.

However, again, this isn't likely to impact something like Chaos Vincent, which is composed of Lifestream. Just ask Nero. He tried it, and it didn't end too well for him.




It's also NEVER been stated that Rufus Shinra was blond in FFVII. That's because it should be clear. Telekinesis and Willpower aren't the same thing. Preventing his non-physical will from joining the flow of the Lifestream? This is willpower. Kadaj corrupting the kids via water corrupted by his will? This is willpower. Physically holding something =/= willpower.

Speaking of "definitions," let's take a look at the definition of willpower and will:

Willpower: The strength of will to carry out one's decisions, wishes, or plans.

Will:

1. The faculty of conscious and especially of deliberate action; the power of control the mind has over its own actions: the freedom of the will.

2. Power of choosing one's own actions: to have a strong or a weak will.

3. The act or process of using or asserting one's choice; volition: My hands are obedient to my will.

Power of will =/= something physically affecting the world.




It's as far as the eye can see because it almost never shows us anything beyond the area of Cloud/Sephiroth's confrontation, most shots of which are upwards (Not the best angle for seeing distance), surrounded by debris, or focusing on a small area. smile





*Watches the opening to AC*

Right. So what you're saying is that people are now incapable of charging forward at the same time? Man, the human race's physical ability sure has degraded a lot.





It should work that way because they're composed of it. He shouldn't have any more control over the Negative Lifestream than them, seeing as the Negative Lifestream is Lifestream corrupted by Jenova Cells, not Lifestream literally containing Jenova Cells. The Jenova Cells would remain with the physical bodies, meaning that Seph having control over Jenova wouldn't mean much.

On a side note, whether or not Sephiroth actually "created them" in the sense that he consciously made them has been called into question. In the 10th Anniversary UOG, in relation to Sephiroth, it says that:

"Although he was defeated in the war surrounding Meteor, and had once fallen into a Mako Reactor, he did not return to the Planet but instead was diffused into the Lifestream. Elements from his body flowed into the atmosphere, and the rejection of these heterogeneous elements was called "Geostigma". Soon after, a remnant of his called Kadaj acquired substance. He was to fulfill the volition inherited from "Mother" to "To rule the Planet", and fought against his fated rival Cloud."

He diffused into the Lifestream, and soon after one of his remnants "acquired substance." Now why not just say that he formed/created them? Of course, I'm not saying that he didn't create them. I'm rather intent on the idea that he did. However, exactly HOW he created them is a bity iffy.




1) They're the physical manifestations of his spirit/will. Not his physical body. Whether or not he has Jenova Cells has no impact on whether or not they do.

2) The Jenova Cells were the reason the NL came into existence. However, it doesn't physically contain them. If it did, then KYLE wouldn't need the children, because their Jenova Cells would allow them to sense Jenova. The Negative Lifestream is formed from the Spirit Energy of those killed by Geostigma, and in turn by Jenova Cells. However, the Jenova Cells are a physical thing in the human body. So it's not really logical to say that the rest of their physical bodies would remain, but that particular element would suddenly go with their Spirit Energy.


Aside from that, them having Jenova Cells but not being able to sense Jenova would completely contradict everything we know about Jenova Cells. Heck, half of FFVII and AC were about those with Jenova Cells using the ability to sense Jenova to respond to her call for the Reunion, and return to her. It's the entire reason Hojo even went through the trouble of the Sephiroth Copy Project. In VII, Cloud subciounsciously responds to the call from continents away. The idea that they would have Jenova Cells, but not be able to even get a hint of the fact that the biggest remaining concentration was quite literally in front of their noses, flies in the face of everything FFVII and the Compilation has told us about the cells.




You mean besides the fact that every shred of information we have regarding Jenova Cells directly contradicts the idea that they have them? The Copies, from entirely different continents, heard Jenova's (Sephiroth's) call, and made their way to him, even with no other way of knowing where he would be. So if people simply injected with those cells could follow their insticts to Jenova from continents away, why would three beings composed of Jenova Cells suddenly not be able to tell when they were literally within reaching distance of Jenova Cells?

On that note, it also contradicts what we know of Sephiroth's return. Sephiroth was only able to reform his body after his spirit (Kadaj) came into contact with a large enough concentration of Jenova Cells, and Kadaj even states that those infected with Geostigma aren't enough. So how is it that they can be composed of something that's composed of Jenova Cells, have all the children with Geostigma, but still not have enough?




1) Loz being able to do it doesn't specifically mean Sephiroth can. Remember, he's not a physical part of Sephiroth. He's simply a manifestation of his will/spirit, composed of Lifestream. It could simply be an innate technique unique to him. Even then, exactly how fast he moves is questionable (Though I personally believe that the way its depicted implies he moves on speeds similar to those of CV/OW, even if not quite on that level).

VinCon01
Bah! Curse these character limits! Vin want teh rantzors!

2) Again, I still have to disagree on that particular quote. It's still pretty vague, and could be taken in several ways. Especially considering the incredibly vague use of the term "strength." After all, while they can sometimes use "strength" to mean every ability, they also say things such as:

Nozue states in the Prologue Book/Interviews that Kadaj is the "fastest of the three" in reference to Sephiroth, Cloud, and Kadaj. Of course, I personally believe that he's referring to speed of movement, but it's still not absolutely certain. This would mean that if Sephiroth is faster than Loz, and Kadaj is faster than Sephiroth, then Kadaj is faster than either of them but simply didn't feel like moving that fast, even when facing someone like Cloud.

In the Reunion Files, Nomura says "Sephiroth was an incredibly powerful rival for Cloud in the game. We needed a villain just as powerful for this film, but maybe even more so given the short amount of time. That's why we made Kadaj so evil, in addition to being insane."

This is why translated comments regarding their power are a bit iffy. They can often mean a multitude of different things, especially considering how they tend to word the statements and what the context of the statements is.





Interesting, considering my "assumptions" are based on actual information, and that information generally backs them. Your assumptions are based on a summary of the information from a book you've apparently never seen.




Oh, wrong again. Cloud and Sephiroth use their own Spirit Energy to use these attacks. So do Kadaj, Yazoo, and Loz. The brothers are made of Negative Lifestream, and therefore the Negative Lifestream is an extension of their own Spirit Energy. Or perhaps they're merely extensions of the Negative Lifestream. Either way, they are merely extensions of one another.



A bit hypocritical, there. The only thing you're countering me with are your own assumptions. Apparently you're still miffed about that topic.



It had nothing to do with ego inflation. It's a simple fact. I've known about this information you're providing me with for some time now. However, you're also not considering things that you probably wouldn't know if you didn't have the book yourself. For instance, as before, the number of typos and mistranslations in the book. I believe I've already provided the "koibito" and "SOLDIER" examples. Also, while I'd have to go back and check, I'm pretty sure they're referred to simply as "summons" without the "s" at least once.




I love how you assume that I don't like Sephiroth. In fact, several people over there are well aware of the fact that Sephiroth isn't simply one of my favorite FFVII characters (The favorite, in fact, aside from Jenova. And that's just because she = teh hotness), but he's among my all-time favorite Final Fantasy characters in general.

Doesn't change the fact that I'm willing to look beyond how much I like him to see his flaws.




You've "shut me down" on perhaps one thing. And that's just you. I'll admit that you're actually using evidence to support your argument. SHM, on the other hand, is definitely not using anything reasonable to support the arguments he's made against me. In fact, most of it has simply been rather sad jabs at me.

The only thing he provided was "They're called Summons," which was taken from a one-line summary of information from the Reunion Files, ignoring any possible instance of them being referred to as "summons" without the "S", but also ignoring mistranslations and typos in the RF, such as when they refer to Cloud as a SOLDIER during Nibelheim, rather than simply as a soldier.



However, exactly how powerful she is is quite questionable. For instance, if she's as "uber" as some claim, then why not simply deal with Jenova herself? Why bother creating half a dozen WEAPONS to deal with a threat, if she can handle the problem on her own?

Pyron_Knight
Typically you make a weapon when you yourself can't perform a task.

Diamond Kisses
Is this thread allowed? Because if so, then all the "Blabla Universe Vs. Blabla Universe" should be too, since it is the exact same concept.

Pyron_Knight
I dunno. Ask Peach or GK about it.

Ya know who'd kick everyone in FFVII's ass in swordfighting? Kenshin

Dark-Jaxx
Not fast enough, definately not strong enough, though has more skill.

You know who really would beat the whole verse in a sword fight? Surtur.

You know who would kill them all with a gun? Saint of Killers.

You know who would one shot the whole planet physically? Superman Prime.

fascistcrusader
If Ultimecia isn't included then FF VII would win this pretty easily. SOLDIER has proven itself to be superior to SeeD, Cloud is stronger than Squall, and Sephiroth is mightier than pretty much anything else in FF VIII. However, I don't think even Sephiroth would be able to handle time compression.

Pyron_Knight
Pft. We all know about your man crush on SMP.
I'll admit, he's buff. And got the whole "bad boy" thing going on perfectly.

But Kenshin...the long red hair, that sweetlook on his face? Positively dreamy.

Oh and uh...well, if it comes to tech, FFVIII will dominate. They can launch cruise missiles at any time and Shinra has a distinct lack of air defenses against such weapons.

SHM
Let me explain VinCon's logic to you all. He believes everything that happens during a battle, is gameplay mechanics. Including the magic spells. Yeah, you read it right. He thinks that most FF characters cannot use magic in the story, just because they only use it in battle.
Ridiculous, isn't it?

This is why he says Sephiroth cannot use magic without Materia. Because we never saw him using it in a cutscene or FMV, only in battle(Bizarro and Safer).
But then we have the fact that Seph was absorbing Lifestream, the source of magic. VinCon says that this is not a proof he can cast spells, because Kadaj and his brothers are made of Lifestream and cannot cast them.
That's why we are talking about the SHM. But in truth, we are talking about Sephiroth here. And I will talk about him now.

Even if we accept Vin's flawed and ridiculous logic that most FF characters cannot use magic in the story, that's not applied to Sephiroth.

Why?

Because of his profile in the Compilation Ultimania, where we can read the resume of his life story in the series(Compilation). Here is the link:

http://ultimania.ff7compilation.net/profile/sephiroth.php

And look at that! His profile have a description of one of his attacks in the story. Super Nova, a MAGIC spell! A spell he used during the final battle, without the aid of Materia.

But Vin said he can't use magic without Materia! VinCon or the creators...

Hmmmm.....

I wonder who is right? roll eyes (sarcastic)


Another of Vin's assumptions destroyed.

Back to topic:

It depends of what timeline we are using. FFVIII pre-game, during it, or post? FFVII pre-game(time of CC and BC), during it, or post?

Terryc250
Plus the fact that Sephiroths remnants were able to summon without materia..

SHM
Please, forget what I said about Sephiroth not using magic in a cutscene or FMV.

He created a HUGE magical barrier around the Northern Crater, after all.

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