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This is Obi Wan at his best, a bit after episode III against ROTS mace.
Who wins?

Originally posted by skywalker833
This is Obi Wan at his best, a bit after episode III against ROTS mace.
Who wins?

well since obi wan is a lightsider i dont see mace's vapaad superconducting loop working. obi wan's saber defenses are nearly inpenetrable as they survives the test of 4 lightsabers from grevious and prevaled against pre-suit vader's onslaught.
but whats to stop mace from popping obi wan's heart with force crush?
obi wan is too defensive to get a hit in so. obi wan could win but im giving this round to mace.

Dude, if Mace could force crush obi1's heart just like that, he would've been able to beat anyone. He would've killed palpatine. Obi wans defense is unbreakable, yet vaapad allows Mace to have very powerful blows. I don't think it will break Obi wans defense.

Mace was being humble. He takes out Kenobi Dooku style!

Originally posted by skywalker833
Dude, if Mace could force crush obi1's heart just like that, he would've been able to beat anyone. He would've killed palpatine. Obi wans defense is unbreakable, yet vaapad allows Mace to have very powerful blows. I don't think it will break Obi wans defense.

he force crushed grevious while grevious was running, so why couldnt he do it to obi wan?

palp had already luged foward and engaged him in saber combat so he had to use the blade

Originally posted by darthsith19
Mace was being humble. He takes out Kenobi Dooku style!

Do you have any proof of that?

It's a fact, ask anybody.

But okay, Dark Rendezvous says Dooku and Mace are equals, while Obsession shows Dooku running from Mace in combat. Dooku was shown to be Kenobi's superior. Yoda also tells Obi-Wan that he is not powerful enough to face the Emperor. However, Mace is left on Coruscant when Yoda leaves so he can deal with the Emperor should he need to. Lucas states that you have to be either Yoda or Mace to be able to compete with the Emperor in a duel, as well. Kenobi's not in the list with them. All this is proof that Mace > Kenobi.

Prove to me that it is a fact. I don't want what you think. I want proof. If you can't prove this, than you lose.
Obi wans skill with a lightsaber is just as good as Mace's, probably even better.
"He's as powerful as Master Windu, and as wise as Master Yoda"
-Anakin Skywalker to Padme' Amidala

I edited my post with proof.



ROFL, dude, that' AOTC Kenobi! What Anakin says doesn't count as proof! If that were true, Kenobi would have thrown Jango onto his ass in seconds, and Dooku would never have even engaged Yoda in a duel because Kenobi would already have killed him! You can't honestly believe that AOTC Kenobi is as powerful as Windu and as wise as Yoda.

Originally posted by skywalker833
Prove to me that it is a fact. I don't want what you think. I want proof. If you can't prove this, than you lose.
Obi wans skill with a lightsaber is just as good as Mace's, probably even better.
"He's as powerful as Master Windu, and as wise as Master Yoda"
-Anakin Skywalker to Padme' Amidala

Actually, Darthsith is very much right.

yeah...
But Obi wan could beat Mace. Obi wan can deflect anything 20 blows or less per second, and is pretty strong in the force. Which he showed us twice. 1. When he force pushed GRIEVOUS more than 100 meters. and 2. when he ripped darth krayts arm off with the force.
I'm thinking this will be a tie. This is considering that Kenobi is a master of soresu, extremely skilled with a lightsaber and has an inpenetrable defense, and Mace is a master and maker of vaapad. Either way, this one will be close

Originally posted by darthsith19
It's a fact, ask anybody.

But okay, Dark Rendezvous says Dooku and Mace are equals, while Obsession shows Dooku running from Mace in combat. Dooku was shown to be Kenobi's superior. Yoda also tells Obi-Wan that he is not powerful enough to face the Emperor. However, Mace is left on Coruscant when Yoda leaves so he can deal with the Emperor should he need to. Lucas states that you have to be either Yoda or Mace to be able to compete with the Emperor in a duel, as well. Kenobi's not in the list with them. All this is proof that Mace > Kenobi.

When did Lucas say that Mace and Yoda were the only ones who could beat sidious? And even if Mace can beat sidious and kenobi can't, this doesn't mean obi1 cant beat Mace. Bad logic.

George Lucas confirmed in Making of Revenge of the Sith that "one must be Yoda or Mace to compete with the Emperor", Kenobi was not included in that particular list because he lacks the power to be a threat to the Dark Lord of the Sith, a line of thought reiterated to Obi-Wan, verbatim, by Yoda himself in the movie ("strong enough to defeat Lord Sidious you are not", whereas the novelization goes one step farther ("strong enough, to defeat Lord Sidious, you will never be".



I'm afraid not.



Kenobi is a master of Soresu, the defensive form. That he was able to deflect up to twenty-strikes-per-second from General Grievous is impressive, but that hardly speaks for his offensive ability, whereas Windu's form is described as "the deadliest" and the most unpredictable of all seven, and according to Fight Saber, in order to master Vaapad or Juyo, one must be a "high level master of multiple forms". Likewise, Obi-Wan hasn't demonstrated anything approaching the level of Windu's Force powers.



Oh, you have proof that Kenobi hurled Grievous (a push he clearly put effort into, judging by his furrowed brow, his cocked arm, and the grunt of exertion) over one hundred meters?



An impressive display of the Force, but not enough to beat Windu.

Originally posted by Gideon
Actually, Darthsith is very much right.
Thank you. notworthy



Kenobi is fast but it doesn't matter. Lucas puts Sidious, mace and Yoda in the top tier for movie characters, and says Mace can compete with Sidious but Kenobi isn't good enough to compete with Sidious. That alone is flat out proof that Mace is more powerful than Kenobi.

Not that it matters, but where's the proof that Kenobi pushed GRIEVOUS more than 100 meters? I ran track for 4 years and I ran the 100m and 200m dash, and I doubt Grievous was pushed 100 meters, or even half of that, though I haven't watched ROTS since last December so I could be wrong and the not 50 meters part.

Wow Kenobi ripped Krayt's arm off with the Force (or cut it off, according to the author). Krayt is pretty strong, but Mace could have finished him off more quickly than Kenobi did, seeing as Mace is able to compete with Sidious and put him on his ass in lightsaber combat.





He may have said it more than once, but the source I got it from is The Making of Star Wars Revenge of the Sith. He says Palpatine took out Kit, Agen and Saesee so quickly because they are the B-Team and you have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor. And Yoda and Mace can compete with him, but they can't necessarily beat him. Also, Nick Gillard states that Kenobi is a level 8 swordsman and Mace is a level 9. Kenobi may have beaten ROTS Grievous, but Mace beat LoE Grievous, who is more powerful than ROTS Grievous. Really, Obi-Wan is good but he's got NOTHING on Mace.








Edit: Ah, Gideon, you beat me to it. I thought that might happen.

Possibly, possibly. I still say a tie. Obi Wan is extremely skilled in lightsaber

Again, Nick Gillard says Mace is a level 9 swordsman and that Kenobi's a level 8 swordsman. Being an employee of Lucas and being the guy in charge of the saber fights for the movies, his word does have some credibility. I can tell that you like Kenobi, but don't let your liking for him cloud your judgement.

There is no tie Mace wins

mace takes it, but difficulty..

Originally posted by darthsith19
Again, Nick Gillard says Mace is a level 9 swordsman and that Kenobi's a level 8 swordsman. Being an employee of Lucas and being the guy in charge of the saber fights for the movies, his word does have some credibility. I can tell that you like Kenobi, but don't let your liking for him cloud your judgement.

Ok. It seems you have enough proof. By the way, what level is Yoda?

Originally posted by Man of Christ
he force crushed grevious while grevious was running, so why couldnt he do it to obi wan?

palp had already luged foward and engaged him in saber combat so he had to use the blade

Kenobi can protect himself in the force... Grievous had no such protection.

Originally posted by skywalker833
Ok. It seems you have enough proof. By the way, what level is Yoda?
9, and so are Sidious and Anakin.

Anakin is higher than obi wan?

Obi wan was stated to be one of the best lightsaber swordsman the order had ever seen. Maybe even better than Mace Windu. I'm not saying obi wan is better, i'm saying he is probably a better swordsman.

Wrong. Obi-Wan is one of the best swordsmen the Order has ever seen. Anakin, Yoda and Mace are amongst the few who are above him and yes, Anakin is above Obi-Wan, on Mustafar, Kenobi was lucky that he got the high ground and Anakin made stupid mistake. Had Kenobi not gotten the high ground, he would soon have been finished. "This is the end for you, my master." Anakin said that in a calm voice. He isn't even breathing hard! But look at Obi-Wan when he says "I have failed you, Anakin. I have failed you." he is panting, usually a sign of exhaustion. George Lucas has also stated that, had the fight continued without Kenobi getting the high ground, Anakin would have won.

Originally posted by darthsith19
George Lucas has also stated that, had the fight continued without Kenobi getting the high ground, Anakin would have won.

I agree with you but where did he say that?

But he did, and that was a wise choice on his part. I agree, Mace would win, but I know for a fact that Obi wan and Anakin are equals.

Originally posted by skywalker833
but I know for a fact that Obi wan and Anakin are equals.

VERY debatable

It is true.

Originally posted by skywalker833
It is true.

In fact your opinion is very debatable if Anakin fights him like he did vs dooku than obiwan would lose. In the rots novel. Dooku acknowledges that Anakin is beating(right before dooku says" i sense great fear in you...) him and he he can sense Anakin is not going all out yet still winning.

Originally posted by truejedi
Kenobi can protect himself in the force... Grievous had no such protection.

Uhuuuuuuuh


and he didnt defend against dooku's force choke so he probably wont be able to defend against mace's force crush either.


by the way, these guys are right, mace comfortably beat the palp but obi wan seemed to struggle against darth vader.

so i say mace is a better duelist seeing as how obi wan wont be able to get a hit in with his soresu

Obi Wan can trap people in there own defense. But yes, Mace would beat Obi Wan. I still find it hard to believe that Anakin is better than Kenobi. He may have the potential, but Obi Wan is wiser, and has much more experience in lightsaber battles.

Originally posted by skywalker833

Obi Wan is wiser, and has much more experience in lightsaber battles.


i already said experience doesnt equal wins

qui gon was more expirienced but still lost to maul
same with dooku and anakin

Actually, experience does matter quite a bit. Because of it, obi1 is used to fighting a bladed opponent. And Obi wan is a master of Soresu, Anakin is not a master at any form.
Originally posted by darthsith19
Wrong. Obi-Wan is one of the best swordsmen the Order has ever seen. Anakin, Yoda and Mace are amongst the few who are above him and yes, Anakin is above Obi-Wan, on Mustafar, Kenobi was lucky that he got the high ground and Anakin made stupid mistake. Had Kenobi not gotten the high ground, he would soon have been finished. "This is the end for you, my master." Anakin said that in a calm voice. He isn't even breathing hard! But look at Obi-Wan when he says "I have failed you, Anakin. I have failed you." he is panting, usually a sign of exhaustion. George Lucas has also stated that, had the fight continued without Kenobi getting the high ground, Anakin would have won.

I never heard anyone say that Anakin was one of the people better than him. Kenbi was not lucky he got the high ground, it was a wise choice, that is part of the battle.

Originally posted by skywalker833
Actually, experience does matter quite a bit. Because of it, obi1 is used to fighting a bladed opponent. And Obi wan is a master of Soresu, Anakin is not a master at any form.


I never heard anyone say that Anakin was one of the people better than him. Kenbi was not lucky he got the high ground, it was a wise choice, that is part of the battle.

expirience does matter but not as much as most say

it doesnt equal a win

I know, but it helps. Anyway, I think everyone agrees mace wins?

Originally posted by skywalker833
I know, but it helps. Anyway, I think everyone agrees mace wins?

pretty much

i agree Mace wins, but in reference to the above, i think Anakin would lose 8 out of 10 to Obi. Obi fought from the position of advantage the entire fight, giving ground, just like Soresu dictates. Goading Anakin, Almost killing him in the hallway, almost leaving him to die on the Girder or whatever it was. Obi-Wan just knows anakin to well to lose to him. His style is a perfect counter for Anakin's rage. Soresu is at its best against many strikes at once, using the other person's own energy against them with minimal effort to wear them down. Eventually anakin, being immature, in this fight, will always make the mistake. Name one mistake Obi-wan made in his fight against anakin, one overcalculation. He was in complete control.

Exactly, you should go on the Anakin vs obi wan post though, that is where it is being talked about now.

Originally posted by skywalker833
But he did, and that was a wise choice on his part. I agree, Mace would win, but I know for a fact that Obi wan and Anakin are equals.
No they aren't. Lucas says on the special features disk from the OT trilogy dvd set that "by ROTS Anakin has become more powerful than Obi-Wan".

That pretty much ends the fanboy's 'arguments', I'd say.

That would be nice, though I doubt it will for long.

Hopefully not.

i would only say that anakin's power does not necessarily give him a victory over kenobi. Kenobi knew him too well to be defeated in ROTS. Nobody is arguing that Kenobi could overpower Anakin. He used Anakin's weaknesses against him, and i would make the argument that he would do so again. btw, if you ever see me arguing a lost cause for ne-body on here, it'll probably be skywalker, not kenobi. I should be able to disagree with your assessement without being labeled a "fan-boy".

Just because anakin is more powerfu, doesnt mean he'll win. Obi wan finds his weaknesses, and uses them to his advantage. This is why he is better, and I am not a fanboy just because i am disagreeing.

How will Kenobi find Anakin's weakness? In ROTS he couldn't get anywhere near Anakin until the very end when Anakin made a mistake, a mistake that he wouldn't be able to make in most places because most places wouldn't have them ending up fighting on floating objects in a lava pool. Had they fought in almost any other location, Kenobi would have been dead. As I said before (it may have been in the Anakin vs. Kenobi thread), Anakin was controlling the pace of the fight and had Kenobi backing up the entire duel (when they were on flat ground). Kenobi is just lucky he had somewhere to back up to. Had they fought in the Geonosian Hanger, Kenobi would have been backed up against a wall and butchered. Had they fought on Tatooine where Maul and Jinn fought, there would be no "high ground" and Kenobi would eventually be killed. In most places Anakin would win, and in all places, Mace would beat Kenobi as he doesn't make "high ground" mistakes like Anakin does.

Originally posted by darthsith19
How will Kenobi find Anakin's weakness? In ROTS he couldn't get anywhere near Anakin until the very end when Anakin made a mistake, a mistake that he wouldn't be able to make in most places because most places wouldn't have them ending up fighting on floating objects in a lava pool. Had they fought in almost any other location, Kenobi would have been dead. As I said before (it may have been in the Anakin vs. Kenobi thread), Anakin was controlling the pace of the fight and had Kenobi backing up the entire duel (when they were on flat ground). Kenobi is just lucky he had somewhere to back up to. Had they fought in the Geonosian Hanger, Kenobi would have been backed up against a wall and butchered. Had they fought on Tatooine where Maul and Jinn fought, there would be no "high ground" and Kenobi would eventually be killed. In most places Anakin would win, and in all places, Mace would beat Kenobi as he doesn't make "high ground" mistakes like Anakin does.


i agree mace beats Kenobi,

what's funny though, is we seem to have a opinions that differ by 180 degrees on the Kenobi-Skywalker fight. IMO, Kenobi controlled that fight, chose the ground they fought on, and almost killed skywalker more than once (when he had him unarmed in the hallway, and when he almost left him to go over the lava-fall, on that girder thing.)

It was Anakin's 3rd mistake that finally cost him. The first mistake was to not just use the force to push Kenobi when he stepped out on that tiny tight-rope like thing, he should never have entered that enviornment with Obi-Wan. Kenobi was supposed to be the hunter here, Anakin's escape would have been considered victory (see Sidious trying to avoid fighting Yoda) His second mistake was to continue to fight on that girder instead of trying to get off of it, like Obi-Wan did, and finally, his third mistake was believing himself to be able to jump higher than he was able.

(which if you notice wasn't nearly as high as Obi-Wan was able to jump in TPM, thoughts on that? did Lucas tone down the Jedi's ability for the rest of the prequels)
neways, i think obi-wan did exactly how he pleased in the battle with Anakin. You notice he retreated as he fought, to defeat grievious, and each time he went on the offensive, he lost (Dooku twice, Maul disarmed him) I believe his retreat was calculated, and part of the reason he would defeat Anakin would lose again.

Obi-Wan was a smarter fighter, and that's why he won. Anakin was just trying to slaughter him; he wasn't controlling the fight beyond simply setting its furious pace. Kenobi was trying to stay alive, just as Palpatine was, and he used his wit and tactical superiority to do so.

Also, I noticed many of you pointing out Anakin's physical advantages; his stamina, superiority in skill, greater Force power, etc. Against Kenobi, all of these are completely nullified. Obi-Wan is the master of a form designed around simplicity and efficiency, and considering his own advanced physical conditioning he's unlikely to "tire out" to the point that Anakin could take advantage of fatigue and win. Second, Anakin's purported technical superiority is negated by the fact that Obi-Wan knows him inside and out. They've spent ludicrous amounts of time sparring or saving eachothers' asses on the battlefield, and as such Obi-Wan knows Anakin's every move. And lastly, Anakin's raw power advantage is negated by Obi-Wan's superior Force mastery. Despite not appearing to be extraordinarily powerful, his tremendous experience advantage and greater control over his abilities allow him to match Anakin fully in a Force contest, so that's obviously not going to be a deciding factor in this.

@truejedi: Anakin was basically jumping at Obi-Wan, staying within striking distance so he could kill his master. Of course, he failed miserably, but that's certainly not the extent of his jumping ability, as we see him leap a pretty significant distance from the bridge to the droid in the lava.

And Obi Wan had a chance to kill Anakin before, and could have when he disarmed him, but chose not to.

Originally posted by skywalker833
And Obi Wan had a chance to kill Anakin before, and could have when he disarmed him, but chose not to.


This is an incorrect assessment of the fight seeing as Obiwan went there with 1 intention, and that was to kill Anakin Skywalker. This is supported in RODV, Palpatine muses how Obiwan defeated Anakin because he came there with 1 purpose and if the Jedi were as efficient as Obiwan was when he came to Mustafar, they would have proven more difficult to topple.

Originally posted by Man of Christ
he force crushed grevious while grevious was running, so why couldnt he do it to obi wan?

palp had already luged foward and engaged him in saber combat so he had to use the blade

First of all the clone wars cartoons exaggerates their powers. Second Greious doesnt have the Force to protect himself from powerful Force attacks!

Palps force powers are much greater than Maces, so Maces best chance against him is in an up close intense saber fight.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
This is an incorrect assessment of the fight seeing as Obiwan went there with 1 intention, and that was to kill Anakin Skywalker. This is supported in RODV, Palpatine muses how Obiwan defeated Anakin because he came there with 1 purpose and if the Jedi were as efficient as Obiwan was when he came to Mustafar, they would have proven more difficult to topple.

he went there to kill him but was hoping he wuldnt have to. "Ill do what I must" Obi-wan says AFTER trying to talk some sense into Anakin.

Also lets not forget he practically begged Anakin not to make that jump.

Originally posted by darthsith19
How will Kenobi find Anakin's weakness? In ROTS he couldn't get anywhere near Anakin until the very end when Anakin made a mistake, a mistake that he wouldn't be able to make in most places because most places wouldn't have them ending up fighting on floating objects in a lava pool. Had they fought in almost any other location, Kenobi would have been dead. As I said before (it may have been in the Anakin vs. Kenobi thread), Anakin was controlling the pace of the fight and had Kenobi backing up the entire duel (when they were on flat ground). Kenobi is just lucky he had somewhere to back up to. Had they fought in the Geonosian Hanger, Kenobi would have been backed up against a wall and butchered. Had they fought on Tatooine where Maul and Jinn fought, there would be no "high ground" and Kenobi would eventually be killed. In most places Anakin would win, and in all places, Mace would beat Kenobi as he doesn't make "high ground" mistakes like Anakin does.

First of all Anakin didnt make a mistake with the High Ground. Obi-Wan just outsmarted him fair and square. Thats the great thing about Obi-Wan... hes like the perfect jedi... He can last so long against as someone as powerful as Anakin, until he finds a way to defeat him. hes wise and smart and will use his surroundings to tacticllay gain the advantage... hes the best with the abilities he has, thats why Yoda thinks so highly of him. It wnt always be the "high ground" thing. Obi-Wans got a million tricks up his sleeve.

I personally dnt think Mace is as smart or as wise as Obi-Wan and therfore Obi-Wan could potentially find a way to defeat him tactically, or just simply outsmart him though Mace probably has this 6 or 7 out of 10 due to his superior lightsaber skills, but Obi-Wan certainly has a chance.

Originally posted by Man of Christ
Uhuuuuuuuh


and he didnt defend against dooku's force choke so he probably wont be able to defend against mace's force crush either.


by the way, these guys are right, mace comfortably beat the palp but obi wan seemed to struggle against darth vader.

so i say mace is a better duelist seeing as how obi wan wont be able to get a hit in with his soresu

Dookus force abilities are much better than Maces, so you cant say because Dooku did that to Obi-Wan, Mace could.. Dooku can shoot and deflect Force lightning with his hands.. Mace needed his lightsaber to deflect FL, and was still shouting in pain. Also Dooku matched Yoda with the Force.

Mace did not Comfortably beat Palps!!! That was an intense lightsaber fight which could have gone either way. Sidious was winning first then the tables turned.

Obi-Wan is the master of defense but can also attack when he needs to. He used form 4 until Qui-Gon died, so is fully capable of attacking. I mean he didnt just defend the whole fight agianst Grevious did he! lol! as soon as he saw an opening he took it, and chopped off his arms..

but to be honest his best chance against Windu would be to keep defending until Windu tires himself out.

Originally posted by darthsith19
I edited my post with proof.



ROFL, dude, that' AOTC Kenobi! What Anakin says doesn't count as proof! If that were true, Kenobi would have thrown Jango onto his ass in seconds, and Dooku would never have even engaged Yoda in a duel because Kenobi would already have killed him! You can't honestly believe that AOTC Kenobi is as powerful as Windu and as wise as Yoda.

When Anakin sed "Master Obi-Wan is as powerful as Master Windu and as Wise as Master Yoda" what I assumed from that is the Obi-Wan is like a much younger version of Mace in terms of fighting. In other words he might be as powerful as him but not as experienced or as good a fighter yet. Maybe Obi-Wan and Mace have the same midi-chlorin count or something.

The same way I think in terms of Wisdom Obi-Wans a much much younger verison to Yoda.. We cant just ignore what Anakin says as Lucas wrote those lines but we have to put them into perspective.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
First of all Anakin didnt make a mistake with the High Ground. Obi-Wan just outsmarted him fair and square. Thats the great thing about Obi-Wan... hes like the perfect jedi... He can last so long against as someone as powerful as Anakin, until he finds a way to defeat him. hes wise and smart and will use his surroundings to tacticllay gain the advantage... hes the best with the abilities he has, thats why Yoda thinks so highly of him. It wnt always be the "high ground" thing. Obi-Wans got a million tricks up his sleeve.

I personally dnt think Mace is as smart or as wise as Obi-Wan and therfore Obi-Wan could potentially find a way to defeat him tactically, or just simply outsmart him though Mace probably has this 6 or 7 out of 10 due to his superior lightsaber skills, but Obi-Wan certainly has a chance.
Dooku tooled Kenobi and Mace has been called Dooku's equal. And, ROTFLAO, Anakin didn't make a mistake? Dude, Anakin made like a thousand mistakes, fighting Kenobi was a mistake, and attacking Kenobi when he was on the high ground was clearly a mistake, seeing as he lost half his body because of it.


Basically meaning that as of AOTC, Kenobi is not as powerful as Mace, which means Anakin was wrong. If Kenobi if less experienced and not as god a fighter he can't be more powerful unless he's more powerful with the Force and nobody would agree with you there. If you really want to debate this go ahead and make an AOTC Mace vs. AOTC Obi-Wan thread.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Dooku tooled Kenobi and Mace has been called Dooku's equal. And, ROTFLAO, Anakin didn't make a mistake? Dude, Anakin made like a thousand mistakes, fighting Kenobi was a mistake, and attacking Kenobi when he was on the high ground was clearly a mistake, seeing as he lost half his body because of it.


Basically meaning that as of AOTC, Kenobi is not as powerful as Mace, which means Anakin was wrong. If Kenobi if less experienced and not as god a fighter he can't be more powerful unless he's more powerful with the Force and nobody would agree with you there. If you really want to debate this go ahead and make an AOTC Mace vs. AOTC Obi-Wan thread.

Why was fighting Obi-Wan a mistake... He had no choice.. Obi-Wan came looking for him... Besides Anakin was a level 9 lightsaber duelist at that point whilst Obi-Wan was a level 8.. So it certainly wasnt futile for him to challenge Obi-Wan.

Neway I didnt say Anakin never made any mistake.. I simply sed the High Ground was not a mistake, it was simply Obi-Wan better tactics nd simply outsmarting him.. As Obi-Wan is more calm and composed during a fight and uses his brain more.

Anakin had already lost before he made the jump... so making the jump in itself was not the mistake which lost him the fight.. Remember Obi-Wan says "Its Over Anakin.. I have the High Ground" Anakin had 2 choices then... either see if against all odds he can make the jump, or simply surrender to Obi-Wan. Of course he was too arrogant and had too much pride to surrender. But thats not what cost him the fight.. He had already lost.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Dooku tooled Kenobi and Mace has been called Dooku's equal. And, ROTFLAO, Anakin didn't make a mistake? Dude, Anakin made like a thousand mistakes, fighting Kenobi was a mistake, and attacking Kenobi when he was on the high ground was clearly a mistake, seeing as he lost half his body because of it.


Basically meaning that as of AOTC, Kenobi is not as powerful as Mace, which means Anakin was wrong. If Kenobi if less experienced and not as god a fighter he can't be more powerful unless he's more powerful with the Force and nobody would agree with you there. If you really want to debate this go ahead and make an AOTC Mace vs. AOTC Obi-Wan thread.

Also your misunderstanding me about Anakins line in AOTC. Im saying Anakin meant in the context of his age.. So Obi-Wan in AOTC was probably a good match for a 35 year old Mace Windu years back.

So yes I agree Obi-Wan was no match for Mace in AOTC. And no Anakin and Lucas who wrote the line wasnt wrong, if you dnt take him out of context. And why would I create a debate about an AOTC Mace vs. AOTC Obi-Wan when iv already sed that the ROTS Mace takes ROTS Obi-Wan like 7/10 times.

All im saying is Obi-Wan has a chance if he can hold Mace off for long enough to figure a way to defeat him. So 3/10 for Obi-Wan. 4/10 on a Really Good Day!

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Why was fighting Obi-Wan a mistake... He had no choice.. Obi-Wan came looking for him... Besides Anakin was a level 9 lightsaber duelist at that point whilst Obi-Wan was a level 8.. So it certainly wasnt futile for him to challenge Obi-Wan.

Neway I didnt say Anakin never made any mistake.. I simply sed the High Ground was not a mistake, it was simply Obi-Wan better tactics nd simply outsmarting him.. As Obi-Wan is more calm and composed during a fight and uses his brain more.

Anakin had already lost before he made the jump... so making the jump in itself was not the mistake which lost him the fight.. Remember Obi-Wan says "Its Over Anakin.. I have the High Ground" Anakin had 2 choices then... either see if against all odds he can make the jump, or simply surrender to Obi-Wan. Of course he was too arrogant and had too much pride to surrender. But thats not what cost him the fight.. He had already lost.
He did have a choice. He chose to turn to the dark side, and then he chose to fight Kenobi. He could have surrendered rather than fight his brother. Or listened to him and returned to the light side. In case you didn't notice, Kenobi tried talking to Anakin and only fought him after he saw there was nothing else that could be done. So yes, it was a mistake, it was a mistake for him to be on opposite sides as Obi-Wan at all.

Anakin chose to jump at Kenobi whilst Kenobi was on the high ground, thus is was Anakin's mistake. Kenobi didn't use the Force to pull Anakin towards the high ground, Anakin chose to jump there. Because of his decision, he lost half his body and almost died. So yes, it was a mistake. Even Obi-Wan tells him "don't try it." Anakin had other options, he could have kept moving down the river in hopes of achieving some high ground, too, or he could have surrendered, after all, surrendering is better than dying.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Also your misunderstanding me about Anakins line in AOTC. Im saying Anakin meant in the context of his age.. So Obi-Wan in AOTC was probably a good match for a 35 year old Mace Windu years back.

So yes I agree Obi-Wan was no match for Mace in AOTC. And no Anakin and Lucas who wrote the line wasnt wrong, if you dnt take him out of context. And why would I create a debate about an AOTC Mace vs. AOTC Obi-Wan when iv already sed that the ROTS Mace takes ROTS Obi-Wan like 7/10 times.

All im saying is Obi-Wan has a chance if he can hold Mace off for long enough to figure a way to defeat him. So 3/10 for Obi-Wan. 4/10 on a Really Good Day!
Except Anakin didn't say "He has as much potential as Master Windu, and could one day be as wise as Master Yoda", he said "He IS as powerful as Master Windu as as wise as Master Yoda." Just because Lucas wrote the line doesn't mean anything, Anakin said it and in-universe characters can be fallible.

Originally posted by darthsith19
He did have a choice. He chose to turn to the dark side, and then he chose to fight Kenobi. He could have surrendered rather than fight his brother. Or listened to him and returned to the light side. In case you didn't notice, Kenobi tried talking to Anakin and only fought him after he saw there was nothing else that could be done. So yes, it was a mistake, it was a mistake for him to be on opposite sides as Obi-Wan at all.

Anakin chose to jump at Kenobi whilst Kenobi was on the high ground, thus is was Anakin's mistake. Kenobi didn't use the Force to pull Anakin towards the high ground, Anakin chose to jump there. Because of his decision, he lost half his body and almost died. So yes, it was a mistake. Even Obi-Wan tells him "don't try it." Anakin had other options, he could have kept moving down the river in hopes of achieving some high ground, too, or he could have surrendered, after all, surrendering is better than dying.



Except Anakin didn't say "He has as much potential as Master Windu, and could one day be as wise as Master Yoda", he said "He IS as powerful as Master Windu as as wise as Master Yoda." Just because Lucas wrote the line doesn't mean anything, Anakin said it and in-universe characters can be fallible.

Again hed already lost the fight... he was floating on lava there was no where else for him to go. Jumping was Anakin saying id rather die than surrender to you... so ill take my chances.. Surrendering is losing... Either way hed lost the fight.... not because he was stupid... but because Obi-Wan just outplayed him plain and simple... yes chosing the dark side was his choice... but were not talking about that... were talking about Anakins apparent stupidity in losing the fight... We could go over this all day..

Originally posted by darthsith19
He did have a choice. He chose to turn to the dark side, and then he chose to fight Kenobi. He could have surrendered rather than fight his brother. Or listened to him and returned to the light side. In case you didn't notice, Kenobi tried talking to Anakin and only fought him after he saw there was nothing else that could be done. So yes, it was a mistake, it was a mistake for him to be on opposite sides as Obi-Wan at all.

Anakin chose to jump at Kenobi whilst Kenobi was on the high ground, thus is was Anakin's mistake. Kenobi didn't use the Force to pull Anakin towards the high ground, Anakin chose to jump there. Because of his decision, he lost half his body and almost died. So yes, it was a mistake. Even Obi-Wan tells him "don't try it." Anakin had other options, he could have kept moving down the river in hopes of achieving some high ground, too, or he could have surrendered, after all, surrendering is better than dying.





Except Anakin didn't say "He has as much potential as Master Windu, and could one day be as wise as Master Yoda", he said "He IS as powerful as Master Windu as as wise as Master Yoda." Just because Lucas wrote the line doesn't mean anything, Anakin said it and in-universe characters can be fallible.


and with the line from AOTC yes he did say Obi-wan is as powerful not that he has the potential to be.... but thing is this isnt politics where he has to explain exactly what he means... not everyone talks in black and white terms.... it may have been a perfectly reasonable implication and assumption as far as he was concerned....

also if Obi-Wan and Mace have the same midi-chlorian count then thats what Anakin might mean by power... we cant just assume by power he means whose the better lightsaber duelist. This would also mean Obi-wan has the potential to be the next Mace Windu as he gets older. But in terms of wisdom the next yoda...

I dnt see the confusion here..

Surrendering = Living. Jumping = Dying. Living > Dying. Anakin jumping wasn't him saying he'd rather live than die. "You underestimate my power!" He clearly thought that he could still win if he jumped, which was a mistake on his part.


And how would Anakin know what Mace and Kenobi's potentials are? No, as powerful means as powerful, Anakin isn't always right. Another example is when he says Obi-Wan's really jealous, he also says he is really ahead of Obi-Wan, in a lot of ways, and says Kenobi is holding him back. You can't expect to be abloe to twist everything Anakin says into the truth because the fact is, Anakin, especially as of AOTC, is an arrogant brat who doesn't know what he's talking about.



No, it doesn't just mean lightsaber duelist, it means everything, overall power, and, for overall power, Mace >>> AOTC Kenobi. Prove that Anakin was talking about potential when he didn't say that he was, and that he wasn't just being an idiot like he usually is.

^ yes hit the nail on the head. I real want to see the evidence that puts ATOC Kenobi equal to Mace other than Anakin's opinion.

Though I always wondered why Anakin didn't try to jump to the side and fight Kenobi on even ground there was like an entire coast line he could have jumped on. Big mistake there

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Though I always wondered why Anakin didn't try to jump to the side and fight Kenobi on even ground there was like an entire coast line he could have jumped on. Big mistake there
Yeah I know. I think he was just waaaaaaay to overconfident.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Yeah I know. I think he was just waaaaaaay to overconfident.

i would agree with you, except that Obi-Wan apparently thought
the fight was over too.. which is weird, because they had each been in more spectacorlorly terrible strategic positions at different points in the fight, and each had fought their way out of it. Like most saber duels in stars wars, it ended simply because it was time for it to end. The reason TPM qui gonn fight is the best, is because he is in mid swing when he gets stabbed in the stomach. EVERY other fight, somebody freezes, or does something stupid, and then dies. (possible exception is Mace kicking the saber out of palps hand, though that was only to make up for the incredibly stupid beginning, with three jedi standing still, looking at each other, being killed one by one)
too bad TPM fight went so bad after that, with Maul standing there thinking "huh?" as Obi-Wan jumps out of the pit, gets the saber, and then slices him in two.

Eh, good point. What about Anakin killing Dooku? Dooku was "frozen" when he died, but not when he got his hands cut off which was really when Anakin had won the duel.

well iv given my opinion and explained why i think that so i dnt see the point in carrying on arguing about it... lets just agree to disagree..

before Anakin jumped Obi-Wan sed "its over Anakin... I have the High Ground"... so as far as the movie was concerned the fight was already won at that point and so theres no point in arguing what anakin could have or should have done after that...

also with Anakins line in AOTC.... i dnt think he was being his usual arrogant self simply because he wasnt talking about himself... he was comparing Obi-Wan to different jedis so hes most likely to be a lot less biased.. and there was no reason for Lucas to put that line in the film if it didnt mean anything...

My intial assumption when i first watched the film is that Anakin meant Obi-Wan and Mace have very similar midi-chlorian counts after all the talk of midi-chlorians from the first film... Can I prove that?? No of course i cant... iv not sat down with Anakin to discuss exactly what he meant by that line... lol!! but similarly no one can prove that Aankin was talking about who would win in a fight..

And since Obi-Wan seemed to know what Yodas midi-chlorian count was it is a fair assumption that Jedis who know each other well are probably aware of what other jedis midi-chlorian counts are... its probably no secret, so Anakin would most likely know better than you or me in that respect..

Thats it.. thats my opinion on those 2 things which iv given my reasoning for, so im not gna carry on arguing back and forth on the same thing..

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
^ yes hit the nail on the head. I real want to see the evidence that puts ATOC Kenobi equal to Mace other than Anakin's opinion.

Though I always wondered why Anakin didn't try to jump to the side and fight Kenobi on even ground there was like an entire coast line he could have jumped on. Big mistake there

I think any jump Anakin made, Obi-Wan having the higher ground could have easily matched his jump but kept a bit higher, having the advantage..

we can nit pick all we like, but even according to Obi-Wan hed already won... and Obi-Wan certainly isnt stupid.

Lets just face it Obi-Wans a very smart and tactical fighter, and that added to having the saber skills to fight anakin off for so long is what gave him his victory.

LOL, 'a very smart and tactical fighter', It wasn't that smart to fight your nemasis on a space station filled with about 200,000 stormtroopers.

Bare in mind that Kenobi was stated to be a better diplomat than a fighter/stratagist.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
LOL, 'a very smart and tactical fighter', It wasn't that smart to fight your nemasis on a space station filled with about 200,000 stormtroopers.

Bare in mind that Kenobi was stated to be a better diplomat than a fighter/stratagist.

He had no choice. If he didn't engage Vader, the Sith Lord would butcher Luke Skywalker and balance to the Force would never be achieved.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

before Anakin jumped Obi-Wan sed "its over Anakin... I have the High Ground"... so as far as the movie was concerned the fight was already won at that point and so theres no point in arguing what anakin could have or should have done after that...

Obiwan's opinion of the battle yes.


The point of the line Lucas intended was that even though Anakin argues obiwan,disagree with obiwan's methods at time and feels like he is he being held back,he still thinks highly of his master and the line itself and the ones I mentioned above is to show the audience the frustration Anakin has which will influence his turn to the darkside.



Possibly but there is nothing that says he can't just jump way off to the side or go down the lava river a little further and simply walk onto the beach and find Obiwan to resume the fight or if Obiwan did leave he would have remained intact.



His opinion of the situation.


No but he did play a big role in the creation of two Dark Lords of the Sith. And once again just because your smart doesn't equal a victory,your always right or anything of the sort.


Smaert move by obwian but a bigger mistake by Anakin. And this thread is Mace vs Obiwan, Obiwan loses 10 out of 10 to a jedi who is his superior in every way imo.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
LOL, 'a very smart and tactical fighter', It wasn't that smart to fight your nemasis on a space station filled with about 200,000 stormtroopers.

Oh I don't know maybe escape was never his intention(as Vader even says) he fought Vader for a reason. Plus by the time he saw Luke coming he knew that had the duel went on Luke would come to try and help him which could have very well cost Luke his life as well as Leia's than there is no hope for the galaxy plus he knew by dying he can still help Luke.

Originally posted by darthsith19
It's a fact, ask anybody.

But okay, Dark Rendezvous says Dooku and Mace are equals, while Obsession shows Dooku running from Mace in combat. Dooku was shown to be Kenobi's superior. Yoda also tells Obi-Wan that he is not powerful enough to face the Emperor. However, Mace is left on Coruscant when Yoda leaves so he can deal with the Emperor should he need to. Lucas states that you have to be either Yoda or Mace to be able to compete with the Emperor in a duel, as well. Kenobi's not in the list with them. All this is proof that Mace > Kenobi.

That and by RotS, Mace had surpassed Dooku.

Kenobi's defense is breakable, though only by Mace, Yoda and Sidious.

The fact that Obi-Wan is a lightsider would not detract from vapaad's deadliness towards him.
Even If Mace couldn't feed off Kenobi's darkness, he could still feed off his own which is the core tenent of the Form.

RotS Mace would beat Obi-Wan very badly, probally in half a minuite If he's being serious.

On another note, even TPM Mace, still being a Master of Juyo at that point could still beat RotS Kenobi - by the skin of his teeth.

Originally posted by Master_Starbuck


On another note, even TPM Mace, still being a Master of Juyo at that point could still beat RotS Kenobi - by the skin of his teeth.

Wasn't Juyo incomplete as far the jedi are concerned by this point?

Sort of. It was considered incomplete because they felt it required too much control to harness in battle and thusly was not pratical due to the danger of the Jedi easily falling to the Dark Side.

But, it has enough technical deadliness to surpass any other lightsaber Form, except it's later descendant, in sheer killing ability.

That Form coupled with Windu's own personal discipline and talents at that time would have allowed him to just barely, and I mean barely beat RotS Obi-Wan.

TPM Maul would get butchered by ROTS kneobi.

Heh, no doubt.

Originally posted by skywalker833
TPM Maul would get butchered by ROTS kneobi.

He would probably lose but I seriously doubt he would be butchered.

heh, i was exaggerating.

Yeah there would be no butchering. death

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
LOL, 'a very smart and tactical fighter', It wasn't that smart to fight your nemasis on a space station filled with about 200,000 stormtroopers.

Bare in mind that Kenobi was stated to be a better diplomat than a fighter/stratagist.

Yes a very smart and tactical fighter. Just because he is better at diplomacy doesn't mean he cant be a heck of a fighter.

Originally posted by darthsith19
It's a fact, ask anybody.

But okay, Dark Rendezvous says Dooku and Mace are equals, while Obsession shows Dooku running from Mace in combat. Dooku was shown to be Kenobi's superior. Yoda also tells Obi-Wan that he is not powerful enough to face the Emperor. However, Mace is left on Coruscant when Yoda leaves so he can deal with the Emperor should he need to. Lucas states that you have to be either Yoda or Mace to be able to compete with the Emperor in a duel, as well. Kenobi's not in the list with them. All this is proof that Mace > Kenobi.

Obsessions also showed Dooku and Mace as equals... They lightsaber clashed for a few scenes, and there was no indication of either of them gaining the advantage.. although Dooku seemed to be gaining the psychological advantage, but thats just Dookus style, and probably why he fairs better in a saber fight with Mace than Sidious did.

The running away was just the smart thing to do... He couldnt just stand there fighting Mace to a stand -off waiting for the other jedis and clone troopers to come. That just would have been really dumb!

Notice the difference between that fight and the fight between Mace and Asajj Ventress... In the Asajj fight it was made clear that Mace was superior and was going to win, and Asajj even admitted thats why shes running away. Totally different to the Mace vs. Dooku in Obsessions.

Still i would give Mace the edge in a Saber fight, but would say Dooku is better with the Force. He took out SoraBulq (whose mastery of Vapaad is Almost equal to Maces) with Force lightning in the middle of a lightsaber fight, while fighting off Tholme!!! which is why I dnt see Mace taking out Obi-Wan with the same kind of Force Move that Dooku did.

He will take him with his lightsaber most likely.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Obsessions also showed Dooku and Mace as equals... They lightsaber clashed for a few scenes, and there was no indication of either of them gaining the advantage.. although Dooku seemed to be gaining the psychological advantage, but thats just Dookus style, and probably why he fairs better in a saber fight with Mace than Sidious did.


Still i would give Mace the edge in a Saber fight, but would say Dooku is better with the Force. He took out SoraBulq (whose mastery of Vapaad is Almost equal to Maces) with Force lightning in the middle of a lightsaber fight, while fighting off Tholme!!! which is why I dnt see Mace taking out Obi-Wan with the same kind of Force Move that Dooku did.

He will take him with his lightsaber most likely.

Force Crush seems to be Mace's best force technique.

And by ROTS Mace out duels a better swordsman that Dooku in his master Sidious who took out 3 jedi masters in seconds and I haven't read obsession but I doubt Mace was fully submerged in Vapaad. And in regars to Sora Bulq and Vapaad, Mace said it best "And he did not master Vaapad. Vaapad mastered him." Sora is not on Mace's level and neither is Obiwan.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Force Crush seems to be Mace's best force technique.

And by ROTS Mace out duels a better swordsman that Dooku in his master Sidious who took out 3 jedi masters in seconds and I haven't read obsession but I doubt Mace was fully submerged in Vapaad. And in regars to Sora Bulq and Vapaad, Mace said it best "And he did not master Vaapad. Vaapad mastered him." Sora is not on Mace's level and neither is Obiwan.

well theres no actual proof that Sidious is a better swordsman than Dooku.. Dooku was also far far above those 3 jedi Sidious killed... he took out Obi-Wan with a simple Force move while fighting Anakin! Just because Sidious is the Master doesnt mean his saber skills are better as he never trained Dooku in Saber skills.. Sidious would take out Dooku with his Better Force powers, and also has a HUGE pyschological lead over Dooku..

Obsessions takes place not long before ROTS. that quote about Vapaad mastering Sora Bulq, is relating to Sora turning to the Dark Side.. Mace himself says Sora knows Vapaad almost as well as he does(before he knew he turned to the Dark Side)... and Dooku took Sora out before he turned to the Dark Side... After turning to the Dark Side Sora did fight Mace, neither of them gaining the advantage... Mace had to leave the fight to save other Jedis.

And after turning to the dark side Sora is working for Dooku, and hasnt overthrown him to be Sidious's apprentice himself... and he certainly claims that now even Mace Windu could not defeat him.

I do agree Mace has the advantage in a saber fight, though Dooku might be able to fight him to a stand off by psychologically intimidating him, which is what he does.. Also the fact that Dooku always keeps a hand free which he can use Force Lighning or other Force moves with.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
well theres no actual proof that Sidious is a better swordsman than Dooku.. Dooku was also far far above those 3 jedi Sidious killed... he took out Obi-Wan with a simple Force move while fighting Anakin! Just because Sidious is the Master doesnt mean his saber skills are better as he never trained Dooku in Saber skills.. Sidious would take out Dooku with his Better Force powers, and also has a HUGE pyschological lead over Dooku..

Obsessions takes place not long before ROTS. that quote about Vapaad mastering Sora Bulq, is relating to Sora turning to the Dark Side.. Mace himself says Sora knows Vapaad almost as well as he does(before he knew he turned to the Dark Side)... and Dooku took Sora out before he turned to the Dark Side... After turning to the Dark Side Sora did fight Mace, neither of them gaining the advantage... Mace had to leave the fight to save other Jedis.

And after turning to the dark side Sora is working for Dooku, and hasnt overthrown him to be Sidious's apprentice himself... and he certainly claims that now even Mace Windu could not defeat him.

I do agree Mace has the advantage in a saber fight, though Dooku might be able to fight him to a stand off by psychologically intimidating him, which is what he does.. Also the fact that Dooku always keeps a hand free which he can use Force Lighning or other Force moves with.

Actually Sidious was more powerful than Dooku, at least by so many notches.
That's why Dooku wanted to wait and bide his time to learn enough before attempting to do battle with the Dark Lord.

Mace Windu isn't intimidated by anyone, not Sidious or Kar Vastor, so that wouldn't work.
And If Dooku used his weak Force lightning on him Mace would just use the Super-conducting loop technique.

Mace could beat either Dooku or Obi-Wan.

Mace would win, but with a struggle.

Originally posted by Master_Starbuck
Comparably to Sidious, Dooku's lightning is weak.
And Mace isn't Sora Bulg nor is he Anakin, Or Vos or a Kiffar Gaurd.I never said they were, obviously. But calling his lightning "weak," period, is stupid.

Can you support this assertion?

My stupid brother is basically the next most knowledgeable person next to Rampant_Ox on Dooku and literally wouldn't shut up telling me about how Dooku planned to join Sidious, use him and then eventually kill him when he learned enough secrets as a Sith.

I can also remember when Dooku asked Obi-Wan to join him in AotC and told him he wanted to crush the Sith - he wasn't joking.

Dooku could have cared less about the Sith and their goals, he really wanted planets to secede from the Republic, that's why when Sidious offered to help, he took it, with the plan to use and dump him.

Didn't turn out as he hoped.

And yes, Dooku's lightning is weak, It's only a few tendrils strong and Yoda was able to block it with moderate difficulty unlike with Sidious who ripped the Grandmaster's lightsaber out of his hand with it.

Man, It's boring knowing everything about Sith and Jedi...

Some stuff used to be a mystery to me...not any more...

Originally posted by Master_Starbuck
My stupid brother is basically the next most knowledgeable person next to Rampant_Ox on Dooku and literally wouldn't shut up telling me about how Dooku planned to join Sidious, use him and then eventually kill him when he learned enough secrets as a Sith.

I can also remember when Dooku asked Obi-Wan to join him in AotC and told him he wanted to crush the Sith - he wasn't joking.

Dooku could have cared less about the Sith and their goals, he really wanted planets to secede from the Republic, that's why when Sidious offered to help, he took it, with the plan to use and dump him.

Didn't turn out as he hoped.Your "stupid" brother isn't a canon source. Sorry.

A multitude of sources, to my knowledge, point to the opposite.

Way to take things completely out of context. In the first duel, Yoda blocked a long-distance, telegraphed attack initiated when neither combatant was moving. Against Sidious, he'd just leapt up and landed on the edge of the Senate pod when the lightning hit his hand and knocked away the saber. The two situations aren't very similar at all.

On second thought, screw it. You obviously don't know what you're talking about, so there's no reason to waste my time here.

Originally posted by Faunus
Your "stupid" brother isn't a canon source. Sorry.

A multitude of sources, to my knowledge, point to the opposite.

Way to take things completely out of context. In the first duel, Yoda blocked a long-distance, telegraphed attack initiated when neither combatant was moving. Against Sidious, he'd just leapt up and landed on the edge of the Senate pod when the lightning hit his hand and knocked away the saber. The two situations aren't very similar at all.

On second thought, screw it. You obviously don't know what you're talking about, so there's no reason to waste my time here.

Heh, what a funny attitude to take. You didn't explain your first point and we've already seen how powerful Dooku's lightning is, powerful enough to take out a hot-headed padawan but not a Master.

Also, I don't think we need to debate about Sidious having stronger lightning then Dooku, do we?

Care to elaborate on the sources that prove otherwise, or do you concede defeat?

If you don't then don't wrap yourself into a twist.

I gotta go now, sleepy time.

he is right, you haven't proved anything.

The mechno-chair's exceptional transceiver -- and others like it -- had been created for Sidious by a host of beings, a few of whom were still alive. And if the agents of the Republic -- or the Jedi, for that matter -- were clever and persistent enough, they could succeed in learning more about Sidious than he would want anyone to learn...
He had to be informed, Dooku thought.
Or did he?
For a heartbeat he hesitated, imagining the power that could be his.
Then he went directly to the hyperwave transmitter Sidious had given him, and began his transmission.

Labyrinth of Evil, page 137.

In Yoda

That was a good book.

that is kinda weird how you gave the guy 10 minutes to reply, then claimed victory though... i dunno about you, but i don't usually sit around waiting for someone to reply to everything i said ( 8

Sidious only had to be a little more powerful than Dooku to keep him in place.. He didnt have to be Massively more powerful and didnt even need to have superior lightsaber skills... Just as long as Dooku Knew that his Master was more powerful...

I believe Dooku did want Obi-Wans help to overthrow Sidious.. I believe he turned to the Dark Side becuase he knew how corrupt the Republic was, and was probably one of those Darksiders who thought they were doing the Right thing... but thats just my opinion.

Dookus lightning is most probably not as powerful as Sidious's... As Sidious is bound to have greater Force powers.. However this does not make Dookus lightning weak.. Remember the clone wars cartoons.. He knocked out Asajj Ventress in 2 seconds flat with his Force lightning while she was carrying 2 ignited lightsabers!!

Also just becuase Mace took Sidious does not mean hed take Dooku. Sidoius was quiet in their fight, and fights with BOTH hands on his lightsaber. Dooku would be talking to Mace in a fight with him, psychologically intimidating him.
Also he keeps a hand free to do a Force move with, or use Force Lightning, while simultaneously Lightsaber Clashing.. Its quite impressive really. His lightsaber handle has is curved for a more firm grip so he comfrtorbly fights with one hand.. Also his Form 2 technique helps with its parrying and minimum effort involved.

Anyway back to Mace vs. Obi-Wan... Mace isnt Dooku.. He doesnt keep a hand free to use an elegant Force move or use Force Lightning while simultaneously lightsaber clashing... So Mace wnt be doing that to Obi-Wan.. Their fight will be decided by lightsaber clashing... Mace will win due to his unique mastery of Vapaad, but it will take him a long time due to Obi-Wans Mastery of Soresu. Soresu Masters defences are supposed to be impenetrable and are sed to be invincilble.. But im still being kind enough to give Mace the win here.

Originally posted by truejedi
that is kinda weird how you gave the guy 10 minutes to reply, then claimed victory though... i dunno about you, but i don't usually sit around waiting for someone to reply to everything i said ( 8
?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Anyway back to Mace vs. Obi-Wan... Mace isnt Dooku.. He doesnt keep a hand free to use an elegant Force move or use Force Lightning while simultaneously lightsaber clashing... So Mace wnt be doing that to Obi-Wan.. Their fight will be decided by lightsaber clashing... Mace will win due to his unique mastery of Vapaad, but it will take him a long time due to Obi-Wans Mastery of Soresu. Soresu Masters defences are supposed to be impenetrable and are sed to be invincilble.. But im still being kind enough to give Mace the win here.

Yeah, it would be close, i'm still not sure if Mace can break his defense...

Originally posted by skywalker833
Yeah, it would be close, i'm still not sure if Mace can break his defense...


uh oh... Mace fanboys are gna go crazy at us now for even hinting Obi-Wan might be able to hold him off!!!

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Sidious only had to be a little more powerful than Dooku to keep him in place.. He didnt have to be Massively more powerful and didnt even need to have superior lightsaber skills... Just as long as Dooku Knew that his Master was more powerful...

I believe Dooku did want Obi-Wans help to overthrow Sidious.. I believe he turned to the Dark Side becuase he knew how corrupt the Republic was, and was probably one of those Darksiders who thought they were doing the Right thing... but thats just my opinion.

Dookus lightning is most probably not as powerful as Sidious's... As Sidious is bound to have greater Force powers.. However this does not make Dookus lightning weak.. Remember the clone wars cartoons.. He knocked out Asajj Ventress in 2 seconds flat with his Force lightning while she was carrying 2 ignited lightsabers!!

Also just becuase Mace took Sidious does not mean hed take Dooku. Sidoius was quiet in their fight, and fights with BOTH hands on his lightsaber. Dooku would be talking to Mace in a fight with him, psychologically intimidating him.
Also he keeps a hand free to do a Force move with, or use Force Lightning, while simultaneously Lightsaber Clashing.. Its quite impressive really. His lightsaber handle has is curved for a more firm grip so he comfrtorbly fights with one hand.. Also his Form 2 technique helps with its parrying and minimum effort involved.

Anyway back to Mace vs. Obi-Wan... Mace isnt Dooku.. He doesnt keep a hand free to use an elegant Force move or use Force Lightning while simultaneously lightsaber clashing... So Mace wnt be doing that to Obi-Wan.. Their fight will be decided by lightsaber clashing... Mace will win due to his unique mastery of Vapaad, but it will take him a long time due to Obi-Wans Mastery of Soresu. Soresu Masters defences are supposed to be impenetrable and are sed to be invincilble.. But im still being kind enough to give Mace the win here.

This entire post is riddled with unsupported and unsubstantiated claims. Who knew that using two hands on one's lightsaber prevents one from using psychology against one's enemies...

Originally posted by Gideon
This entire post is riddled with unsupported and unsubstantiated claims. Who knew that using two hands on one's lightsaber prevents one from using psychology against one's enemies...

Dooku usually keeps one hand free while sword fighting to use force lightning or force choke on his opponent like he did to ObiWan and to Sora Bulq..

He also talks to his opponents while fightin to put them off balance, like he did to ObiWan (AOTC), to Mace(Obsessions), to Sora Bulq, to Tholme, to Quinlan Vos etc etc..

whats so difficult to understand, and wheres the unsupported claims here??? Wheres the riddles?? Iv supported all of my claims with fight scenes from the movies and the EU.. and even gone into the different fighting forms used. Apart from the overthrowing of Sidious, which I specifically sed was just my opinion tell me 1 unsupprted claim iv made. Or give my 1 riddle from my quote.

Clearly your not capable of debating and you didnt like what I was saying so thats the best you could write back.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Dooku usually keeps one hand free while sword fighting to use force lightning or force choke on his opponent like he did to ObiWan and to Sora Bulq..

Count Dooku's form relies on precision and accuracy rather than speed or kinetic energy. Darth Sidious is a master of Juyo (indicated by Maul's indoctrination in the form) which is only for high level masters of other forms; that he simply uses two hands to wield his lightsaber doesn't mean he can't wield it with one. That you'd even try to make a point out of this is stupid.



Because you're being completely ridiculous: "LOLZ MACE USES TWO HANDS ERGO HE CAN'T MAKE A TAUNT OR USE TEH FORCE LOLZ!!!1!" or "LOLZ PEOPLE WHO USE ONE HANDS > PEOPLE WHO USE TWOZ)RS!!!!1!"

I'm afraid that you'll have to do better than that. Raise your game or get the hell off the court.

Bring your A-Game, man.

and yet Mace couldnt take out Sora Bulq, whilst Dooku did quite quickly ny fighting him one handed, and shooting FL from his other hand. I dnt knw if Mace conceivably could do this, but the point is HE DOESNT!!!!

they have different fighting styles... what do you not understand... your not capable of debating

and the intimidation is something completely different... something Dooku does, but Mace doesnt... something Dooku has done to Mace while fighting him. if you knew anything about Dooku you wuldnt be disputing this.

Originally posted by Gideon


Because you're being completely ridiculous: "LOLZ MACE USES TWO HANDS ERGO HE CAN'T MAKE A TAUNT OR USE TEH FORCE LOLZ!!!1!" or "LOLZ PEOPLE WHO USE ONE HANDS > PEOPLE WHO USE TWOZ)RS!!!!1!"

I'm afraid that you'll have to do better than that. Raise your game or get the hell off the court.

two people sword fighting... one guy is doing it one handed... that wuldnt impress you in the least??? person A beats up person B one handed.... I guess that wuldnt impress you either... Yeah thats just totally ridiculous.

When Windu and Bulq fought it ended with Bolq being buried under a bunch of rocks. Mace leaving to go save other Jedi does not= being inferior to Bulq. That's like saying Dooku > Yoda because Yoda stopped fighting to save Obi-Wan and Anakin.

Originally posted by Gideon
Count Dooku's form relies on precision and accuracy rather than speed or kinetic energy. Darth Sidious is a master of Juyo (indicated by Maul's indoctrination in the form) which is only for high level masters of other forms; that he simply uses two hands to wield his lightsaber doesn't mean he can't wield it with one. That you'd even try to make a point out of this is stupid.






and Count Dooku is the Unrivalled Master of Form 2 which is the best form for blade to blade combat. Hes completely Mastered and Perfected this form. and yes it relies on precision and accuracy... it also relies on parrying hits and using minimum effort.
He uses a curved lightsaber handle for a firmer grip.. so yeah he can fight one handed better than most. and he usually keeps one hand free to do simultaneous attacks with. but clearly thats not impressive in the least for you.

thats his style of fighting... not maces, or sidious's.... you would most likely only see them doing that if fighting considerably weaker opponents.

Makashi being the ultimate lightsaber combat form seems unrealistic, considering it's weakness to Djem/So. Anakin was striking so hard that Dooku was forced to use two hands when fighting him.

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
When Windu and Bulq fought it ended with Bolq being buried under a bunch of rocks. Mace leaving to go save other Jedi does not= being inferior to Bulq. That's like saying Dooku > Yoda because Yoda stopped fighting to save Obi-Wan and Anakin.

I didnt say Bulqs better than Windu.. I sed he wasnt able to defeat him.. not that he culdnt if the fight went on... the point is Dooku handled him much better and much easier. he fought him one handed while force pushing Tholme away, and then shooting Bulq with FL... but clearly the simultaneous attacks doesnt impress you lot.

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
Makashi being the ultimate lightsaber combat form seems unrealistic, considering it's weakness to Djem/So. Anakin was striking so hard that Dooku was forced to use two hands when fighting him.

Exaclty... he was forced to with Anakin... but thats not normally his style.. Anakin was simply 2 powerful.. the guys got like twice the midichlorian count as Sidious, and now that he was a full fledged knight, his blows were simple too powerful for the Count. That scene was there to show how Powerful Anakin is, not to point out Dookus weakness to Djem/So! Lol!

Read up on Makashi... its whole purpose it was designed for was Blade to Blade combat, and so specialises in that, so is supposed to be the best for that. Just like Soresu is the best Defense form.. not just defending agianst lightsaber attacks, but blaster fire attacks, and all sorts of attacks in general. Each form has its own specilisation, and Makashis is Blade to Blade fighting.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
and Count Dooku is the Unrivalled Master of Form 2 which is the best form for blade to blade combat.

Not True.

And we're not even talking about Dooku. So, back to the discussion:

Obviously there is still some arument about who would win this battle. (considering the votes for obi1 have gone up) So, anyone have any arguments for one of the combatants.

Originally posted by skywalker833
Not True.

go read his bio on starwars.com.. it says hes unrivalled in that form. it also says hes completely mastered and perfected it.

Also if you read on Makashi you will see that this was specifically designed for blade to blade combat, which is why most jedis do not use it, as it is not relevant to most thier missions. It also says Makashi has created some of the best swordsmen in the whole history of the galaxy.

Originally posted by skywalker833
And we're not even talking about Dooku. So, back to the discussion:

Obviously there is still some arument about who would win this battle. (considering the votes for obi1 have gone up) So, anyone have any arguments for one of the combatants.

I only mentioned Dooku because sum1 sed that Mace would do to Obi-Wan exactly what Dooku did, which I think just isnt true due to thier completley different styles of fighting and different talents. Then somebody didnt like what I was saying about Dooku so that argument started.

Back to Mace vs. Obi-Wan.... like I sed it will be decided by the lightsaber fight. If im not wrong they have sparred somewhere in the EU close to ROTS and Mace culdnt get past Obi-Wans defences.. Mace also admits himself hes not neccessarily a better swordsman than ObiWan just because he created Vapaad.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
go read his bio on starwars.com.. it says hes unrivalled in that form. it also says hes completely mastered and perfected it.

Also if you read on Makashi you will see that this was specifically designed for blade to blade combat, which is why most jedis do not use it, as it is not relevant to most thier missions. It also says Makashi has created some of the best swordsmen in the whole history of the galaxy.
Yes, but it is not the best blade form. I'm not talking bout the "Hes the unrivaled master"

Originally posted by DARTH POWER


Agreed.

The only way Obi Wan can win is if he can defend himself long enough to find a weakness in Mace.

Originally posted by skywalker833
The only way Obi Wan can win is if he can defend himself long enough to find a weakness in Mace.

I think Mace would be more likely to find a weakness in Obiwan's defense due to shatterpoint.

I was kinda thinking that when I wrote it.

It seems we still have some people thinking obi might win. I myself, I really dont know, it will be close.

Originally posted by skywalker833
The only way Obi Wan can win is if he can defend himself long enough to find a weakness in Mace.


To be fair I think the best Obi-Wan could do really is fight him to a Stand-Off... and to do that he would have to defend at his very best, and use Soresu to its fullest degree of Mastery.

If Obi-Wan wins it would most likely be from tiring Mace out, and not by finding a weakness.... Tiring opponents out is one of the things Soresu is designed to do, as its minimum effort technique gives the Soresu user great Stamina, and able to last through long tiring fights.

very true. Obi wan will either do that, or he will trap mace in his own offense. Also, mace said just because he made vaapad doesn't mean he is better than obi wan because he is the master of it.

OH yeah Darth Power, welcome to the forums.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Not true. Obi Wan would probably get as tired out as Mace. OBi wan is very good at finding weaknesses, like he did against Anakin, and Maul, which, for both of them was their arrogance.

Originally posted by skywalker833
Not true. Obi Wan would probably get as tired out as Mace. OBi wan is very good at finding weaknesses, like he did against Anakin, and Maul, which, for both of them was their arrogance.

I wouldn't exactly say he found their weaknesses especially with Maul. If I recall correctly Obiwan had to use some sort of technique to calm himself down while hanging on the ledge or he would have died. I don't recall it being said that Obiwan exploited Maul's weakness per say that he was some smart fighter at that point. Maul's death was more of a fluke. Though exploiting Anakin's arrogance might be debatable. I would need to reread the rots novel and another source on the mindset of the two fighters.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
I wouldn't exactly say he found their weaknesses especially with Maul. If I recall correctly Obiwan had to use some sort of technique to calm himself down while hanging on the ledge or he would have died. I don't recall it being said that Obiwan exploited Maul's weakness per say that he was some smart fighter at that point. Maul's death was more of a fluke. Though exploiting Anakin's arrogance might be debatable. I would need to reread the rots novel and another source on the mindset of the two fighters.

I wasn't really talking about maul. Although Maul's arrogance was his death. He was toying around with kenobi, throwing sparks down at him. Then obi wan flew at him and cut him through the torso.

Originally posted by skywalker833
OH yeah Darth Power, welcome to the forums.

Thanks Pal

Originally posted by skywalker833
Not true. Obi Wan would probably get as tired out as Mace. OBi wan is very good at finding weaknesses, like he did against Anakin, and Maul, which, for both of them was their arrogance.

Well id say more than finding peoples weaknessed ObiWan stays calm and focused during a fight and thinks tactically.. it seems he had the "high ground" thing planned. whilst Anakin didnt seem to do much planning, as he was just relying on his power to kill Obi-Wan.

Yoda thinks very highly of Obi-Wan as he uses his brain not just his power. Hes a great warrior but hed rather sit and meditate. He will do everything he can to avoid a fight, but when a fight starts, he will keep a cool head, and end the fight in the most efficient way he can.. e.g. setting a Rancor loose on Asajj Ventress, not because he was scared of her, but just because it was the most efficient way of dealing with her, which is what he explains to her when she accuses him of being a coward for SEEMINGLY always running away from her.

However his chances of outsmarting someone as experienced as Mace are a lot smaller. I still think Mace wuld tire first though. If you read on Soresu, ull find Soresu users have great stamina as they are prepared for longer fights because it is a defensive form of fighting. Makes sense that the "Negotiator" wuld be "The Master" of this style.

To add on to what you said about soresu, it is supposed to trap the person in their own attack. This is its offense i guess. It can also block about 20 strikes per second, and I think the only person who can hit that fast is grievous, so i don't think mace will break his defense.

If obi wan goes all out, he will have a good chance of winning. The only way mace would beat obi wan was if he used the force, which is probably what it will come down to.

Originally posted by skywalker833
If obi wan goes all out, he will have a good chance of winning. The only way mace would beat obi wan was if he used the force, which is probably what it will come down to.

Obi-Wans not weak with the Force. He stalemated Anakin. and Anakins done a lot of great feats with the Force. So I dnt see Mace overpoweing him in this area.

Poeple just assume that Obi-wan is weaker in the force because of what Dooku did to him. But Dooku caught him off guard. All credit to Dooku for doing that. But also Dooku is better than Mace with the Force. hes been mastering the Force for like 8 decades, and got even more powerful after turning to the Dark Side.

and remember Anakins line "master Obi-Wan is as powerful as Master Windu." I assume he meant power in the force.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
and remember Anakins line "master Obi-Wan is as powerful as Master Windu." I assume he meant power in the force.

And i know this has been addressed already. You can assume it meant force power or overall power. But the fact remains that Anakin is a fallible, and there is no proof at all that makes this AOTC quote accurate. And is there any proof that force crush would not work Obiwan? And what great feats is there for obiwan to be considered great in the force? "But EH he tied Anakin Skywalker in the force OMG!"

From his sw databank profiles

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
And i know this has been addressed already. You can assume it meant force power or overall power. But the fact remains that Anakin is a fallible, and there is no proof at all that makes this AOTC quote accurate. And is there any proof that force crush would not work Obiwan? And what great feats is there for obiwan to be considered great in the force? "But EH he tied Anakin Skywalker in the force OMG!"

From his sw databank profiles

you've quoted about Maces lightsaber skills, his experience and his wisdom, but nothing about his force power and proof that its greater than Obi-Wans.

Obi-Wan was also quite good you know.. In Mace's own words Obi-Wan is "THE Master" of Soresu.. and in Maces own words he is not neccesarily a better swordsman just because he has Vapaad.

Vapaad is a lethal form and would stand a much better chance at taking down sum1 as powerful as Sidious than Soresu.. Obi-Wan would never be able to tke down Sidious because a good defense wuld be next to useless against someone with such great force powers.. something more lethal and aggresive like Vapaad was needed to take down Sidious.

But on the other hand Soresu was sed to be the best style to handle Greivous... so its just about different styles.

As far as wisdom and experience goes... Obi-Wans wisdom and experience is also legendary.. and by ROTS he was contributing at the highest levels of Jedi Strategy according to his SW profile.. and it seems Mace and Yoda would always consult with him according to the movies.

And yeah I do think stalemating the "Chosen One" with the Force was very impressive. Did you see what Anakin did to Asajj Ventress and Durge just using the Force????

Also asking for proof to back up Anakins line in AOTC, well is his quote in the movie not proof in its own right?? Anakin would know the powers of other jedis much better than you or I.. The script was written by George Lucas, and the movies are the most cannon source there is.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
you've quoted about Maces lightsaber skills, his experience and his wisdom, but nothing about his force power and proof that its greater than Obi-Wans.

He is skilled with force crush (an actual offensives ability), use the force to empower his hands to punch and severely dent a battle droid ( I believe Lightsnake said they were made of durasteel), his skills in shatter point, force speed vs kar vastor, then of course he has the core tk powers as well.


And vapaad channels Mace's own anger into a weapon. And Obwian would never take sidious cause he is completely outmatched by Sidious in every way.





So you are using a single feat to make him equal to Mace in the force. And can Obiwan do anything that Mace can't? No



LOL,that is not proof.The movie also says Anakin made a statement he is a fallible character and there is nothing to back up Anakin's opinion and your's Anakin says he is more powerful than the chancellor but there is nothing to back that up. "But EH it was said in the script written by George Lucas so it must be true." You have to understand the plot devices. The purpose of that line was signify how highly Anakin thought of his master yet he still feels like his master is holding him back.

I'll be on later tonight but I strongly urge you to rid personal opinion/speculation out of your posts cause it is really annoying when nothing it backing up much like your last point I just addressed about Obiwan's AOTC power,that is what macde Gideon stop responding and soon it will make me.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
He is skilled with force crush (an actual offensives ability), use the force to empower his hands to punch and severely dent a battle droid ( I believe Lightsnake said they were made of durasteel), his skills in shatter point, force speed vs kar vastor, then of course he has the core tk powers as well.


And vapaad channels Mace's own anger into a weapon. And Obwian would never take sidious cause he is completely outmatched by Sidious in every way.





So you are using a single feat to make him equal to Mace in the force. And can Obiwan do anything that Mace can't? No



LOL,that is not proof.The movie also says Anakin made a statement he is a fallible character and there is nothing to back up Anakin's opinion and your's Anakin says he is more powerful than the chancellor but there is nothing to back that up. "But EH it was said in the script written by George Lucas so it must be true." You have to understand the plot devices. The purpose of that line was signify how highly Anakin thought of his master yet he still feels like his master is holding him back.

I'll be on later tonight but I strongly urge you to rid personal opinion/speculation out of your posts cause it is really annoying when nothing it backing up much like your last point I just addressed about Obiwan's AOTC power,that is what macde Gideon stop responding and soon it will make me.

To be honest im not even a massive Obi-Wan fan. Im jus giving my opinion from what iv picked up from the films, cartoons and comics. So if you prove me wrong then im wrong... jus giving my opinion, and the other side of the argument.

If you dnt want to respond thats fine. I havent insulted anyone. Theres no need to get angry at me for giving opinions which you may not like. And i usually do base opinions on whats in the movies, cartoons and comics. And by the way if you read Gideons posts to me you will find there were not that many facts, and he was speculating a fair bit as well. If people do not want me here or do not want me to debate opinions based on what weve seen in the Star Wars universe then I will voluntarily stop posting myself.

So ok... Force powers for Obi-Wan.. Blocking all of Durges's attacks, rockets, fire e.t.c., crushing Durge's weapons(and would that not count as Force Crush??An actual offensive ability like you said)... Breaking Durge apart when trapped inside him(Force Strength).. We saw Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon use Force Speed at the beginning of TPM.

Yes Mace uses Vapaad. Obi-Wan does not. Obi-Wan has Mastered Soresu and can in turn block 20 hits a second or something. Can Mace do this? Not as far as I know.. So would this count as something Obi-Wan can do that Mace can not? Or would it count as something Obi-Wan can do better than Mace??

That single feat of matching Anakin means a lot! And thats proof from the film, and yes just 1 feat like that is something, as it means he matches the Chosen One in Force Pushing Power at least. and then suddenly you have to think about everything Anakin can do with the Force. Because weve seen Obi-Wan match him. (Anakin beat the living daylights out of Asajj Ventress and Durge just using the Force.)

And by the way I see a lot of arguments for Mace on these boards based on 1 feat, him defeating Sidious in Lightsaber battle. Oh and that feat which started with 3 jedis helping Mace to initially engage Sidious, and ending with Sidious pretending to be weak with the Lightning(Lucas has confirmed this himself.) But when an argument comes for Obi-Wan based on 1 feat of his against Anakin its supposed to mean nothing??!! thats not very fair..

And finally about Anakins line... ur comparing that to when he sed hes more powerful than the chancellor, he can overthrow him??? thats when Anakin was completely saoked in the Dark Side and frankly was dillusional. Besides he did have more potential... Sidious himself sed Lord Vader will grow more powerful than either of us.. Power is a broad term in the Star Wars Universe. It can mean potential, or Force Power or fighting abilities... and its certainly been used in more than one sense in the SWU. my point again, when talking about himself Anakin was usually biased, but he was criticsing Obi-Wan at that point, but at the same time gave him credit where he deserves. He certainly didnt look like he was going to give Obi-Wan more credit than he deserves at that point! Lol!

If I cant use lines from the movies as proof, then forget it il stop posting and let you guys debate ur one sided arguments. Lol!

and by the way Elite Hunter uv given ur own Speculation of that line and why it was sed. And uv Presumed it was Anakin's own opinion and he wasnt talking facts there. Which is fine by me. Thats all part of debating.. giving ur own opinion on the context of a certain scene. But im not going to refuse to debate with you because of that. with these vs. columns there will be opinions.. sumtimes u just can not prove who wuld win in a fight... it is just speculation based on other parts of the SW Universe that weve seen.

but just for the record if Anakin just wanted to show how highly he thinks of Obi-Wan he could have just sed "dnt get me wrong Obi-Wan is an extremely Wise and Powerful JEDI"... but he equated power with Mace more as a factual statement than an opinion. It seems his opinion was that "Obi-Wan is a great mentor", then he backed it up with factual statements. Am i speculating... maybe thats ny interpretation of the scene, just like you gave yours. Is my interpretation more unreasonaable than yours?? Well I dnt think so.

So much opinions with little to back it up. Though I give you credit for listing the force feats to obiwan which I may get to later today if i have the time but i feel this is more important than the actual vs match in this thread.


Except Anakin nor Obiwan outdueled the most powerful dark lord of the sith even by ROTS. Which is fact.


Both of them have similarities,Anakin makes a claim and it is wrong. Do you not understand that just because a statement is in the movies doesn't make it a true. Anakin is a FALLIBLE character. He gave his opinion and there is NO evidence to support it. All the board members would agree with me on this.



You can use them but if you keep using them in such a way like this than the arguments will get ruined, just because something is said in the movie doesn't make it fact. You need evidence to back up the claims and in this case there is no evidence.




Do you not understand that you need evidence to back up Anakin's claim yet there is none. And as I already said Anakin is an in universe character thus making him fallible.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
So much opinions with little to back it up. Though I give you credit for listing the force feats to obiwan which I may get to later today if i have the time but i feel this is more important than the actual vs match in this thread.




I listed Obi-Wans force feats from the cw cartoons because people on these boards tend to miss them, but tend to remember Mace's for some reason. I usually do back my claims up as much as everyone else does on these boards and speculate about as much as everyone else. I just think a couple of people on these boards are accusing me of too much speculating simply because they dnt like my conclusions from certain lines and scenes from the SWU.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter


Except Anakin nor Obiwan outdueled the most powerful dark lord of the sith even by ROTS. Which is fact.

thats not what i was saying. i was trying to say if you can use that one feat of Maces to back up so many of the arguments in favour of him, then why cant I use the feat of Obi-Wan equlaing Anakin in the Force as an argument for Obi-Wan being powerful in the Force again and again.

You see even when I back up my arguments from scenes from the films, you still dnt accept it and accuse me of speculating.

And by the way, we never saw Anakin or Obi-Wan lightsaber duel with Sidious, so to say you know what would happen would again be speculation. Which is fine by me. because thats all we can do here is speculate, but from what we have understood from different lines and scenes in the SWU, and debate about that.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter


Both of them have similarities,Anakin makes a claim and it is wrong. Do you not understand that just because a statement is in the movies doesn't make it a true. Anakin is a FALLIBLE character. He gave his opinion and there is NO evidence to support it. All the board members would agree with me on this.

You can use them but if you keep using them in such a way like this than the arguments will get ruined, just because something is said in the movie doesn't make it fact. You need evidence to back up the claims and in this case there is no evidence.

Do you not understand that you need evidence to back up Anakin's claim yet there is none. And as I already said Anakin is an in universe character thus making him fallible.

And ur not understanding what im saying about that line either.
I never said that Anakins word is The Truth, and must be a fact. I was just adding that line as part of my argument. And saying we shuldnt just totally ignore that line. Yes iv not proved what he said was true.... but nobodys proved that he was lying or mistaken either.

Its a very simple argument to say Anakin MIGHT be wrong, thereby just ignoring a line in the movie because you dnt want that to be true. And like Iv already said many times... Anakin wasnt talking about himself, so wasnt likely to be that biased. If he just wanted to say Obi-Wans great, then he could say "dnt get me wrong. Obi-Wan's is a great mentor. Hes a very WISE and POWERFUL Jedi." but he specifically compared him to these other jedis. and he was still on the light side so not completely unreasonable or dillusional.

also looking at the context of the scene he was wanting to criticise Obi-Wan so was unlikey going to give him More Credit than he Deserved.
And yes Anakins from that Universe and he is a jedi himself so is more likely to know the level of powers of other jedis than me or you wuld knw.

And finally Lucas put that line in specifically comparing Obi-Wan to these 2 other great Jedis. he didnt have to... he could have just put the line Obi-Wan is a great jedi. So thats why I dnt think we should just ignore that line.

And by the way, Anakins not the only one who thinks so highly of Obi-Wan.. Yoda has always thought very highly of him, and basically considers him to be like the perfect jedi. For his powers, his wisdom, and overall skills. Do you need proof of this too before you accuse me of speculating without any proof again? I can provide some if you want, i just need to find all the quotes from Yoda.

George Lucas, the Making of Revenge of the Sith: "You need to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor." Anakin, Obi-Wan, Dooku, and everyone else don't qualify.

Originally posted by Gideon
George Lucas, the Making of Revenge of the Sith: "You need to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor." Anakin, Obi-Wan, Dooku, and everyone else don't qualify.

Im pretty sure he was talking about the heroes thats why Anakin and Dooku were not mentioned.. and before you accuse me of speculating, I think it was Nick Gillard who called Anakin, Mace, Yoda and Sidious all level 9 Saber duelists. He said fights between level 9's can go either way. Thats how they choreographed the fights. He put Obi-Wan at a level 8. He put Anakin in AOTC at a level 7, so we can assume Obi-Wan was probably a level 7 at that time as well. They didnt say what level Dooku was at.

So you see if he was talking about the villains as well, then Anakin would definetely have been included as they already put him in the level 9 league. Also common sense would suggest that if he can defeat Dooku, then he would at least be able to COMPETE with Sidious.

I assure you I have zero intention on bashing you so this will be my last post in this thread regardless if you apply to or not.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
thats not what i was saying. i was trying to say if you can use that one feat of Maces to back up so many of the arguments in favour of him, then why cant I use the feat of Obi-Wan equlaing Anakin in the Force as an argument for Obi-Wan being powerful in the Force again and again.

Because I already mentioned a few other feats and the feat out dueling the most powerful sith lord ever>>>>>>>>Stalemating Anakin with the force.




You brought up the point and I among others, have said that it is not true and asked for proof that back ups Anakin's opinion.




Most of if not all of what you posted does not back up Anakin's opinion which was made before the CW.



We know ROTS Sidious is the most powerful sith to have come till that point. We see Dooku knock out Obiwan. We Sidious take out 3 jedi masters in seconds and take take Mace and Yoda on for a long period of time giving them hell. I recall hearing that Lucas has stated that "you have to be a Mace or Yoda to compete with Sidious" and Anakin and Obiwan is not included in that statement.



This part of your argument has been refuted due to the lack of proof that backs up AOTC Anakin's opinion It is up to YOU to provide the evidence to back up the statement.



Anakin=in universe character and is fallible. He can most certainly be bias and wants to believe that his master is as powerful as Mace so he can think to himself that he is being trained by one of the elite in AOTC. And once again the lack of proof to back up this statement.



Anakin is saying it in universe and see the above posts




There is of course a difference in thinking highly of someone and their actual power and Dooku did effortlessly repel him in AOTC he also said he was disappointed at Obiwan due to the quickness in which he was repelled.


I don't need proof of Yoda thinking highly on AOTC Obiwan because it has no affect on the duel. Thinking highly of some doesn't equate to them being a powerful being.

Hunter, I think you need to consider some of the facts that POWER has put on the thread. You also need to consider the fact that Obi-wan actually has the ability to beat Mace. Just because obi1 isn't a level 9 fighter, doesn't mean he can't beat one. Him beating anakin is proof of that. (And it wasnt Lucas that said the saber fighting levels, so i'm still not convinced) Still, most of POWER's "facts" aren't backed up with info. Some of them are good, solid facts though. Like it was pretty impressive when obi1 blocked the fire from durge, and all the needles. And matching anakin in the force. imo, either combatant could win this.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
I assure you I have zero intention on bashing you so this will be my last post in this thread regardless if you apply to or not.

thats entirely up to you. im just giving my opinion.. if you dnt want to debate them thats fine.. i dnt see the point in the thread then, if your not going to debate with anyone who gives ponits in Obi-Wans favour.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Because I already mentioned a few other feats and the feat out dueling the most powerful sith lord ever>>>>>>>>Stalemating Anakin with the force.

I also mentioned a few feats of Obi-Wan. I never sed beating the emporer was not as impressive. Besides I was talking about force power when i brought up that feat, not lightsaber dueling. And that Force feat straight from the movies says a lot.


Originally posted by Elite Hunter

You brought up the point and I among others, have said that it is not true and asked for proof that back ups Anakin's opinion.

Most of if not all of what you posted does not back up Anakin's opinion which was made before the CW. .

Fine I give up on the AOTC line.. its not such a huge thing to spend most our posts just arguing over one line in the film. Id much rather you address the Force Feats i mentioned Obi-Wan doing including Force Crushing Durges weapons.. and using Force Strength to break him apart from the inside. Especially since a lot of the arguments on Mace side were that he could Force Crush Obi-Wan??? and that he has Force Strength.

By the way since we have decided to ignore the AOTC line, then can we also not ignore Yodas line in ROTS when he says "Not Powerful enough are You to Fight this Emporer.." since Yoda is also an in Universe fallible character with his own opinons(not always right).. and it was clear he wanted to go kick the Emporers b*** himself! Lol!

Originally posted by Elite Hunter


We know ROTS Sidious is the most powerful sith to have come till that point. We see Dooku knock out Obiwan. We Sidious take out 3 jedi masters in seconds and take take Mace and Yoda on for a long period of time giving them hell. I recall hearing that Lucas has stated that "you have to be a Mace or Yoda to compete with Sidious" and Anakin and Obiwan is not included in that statement. .

in ROTS Dooku knocked out Obi-Wan with superior Force Powers.. he didnt outduel Obi-Wan. AOTC fight doesnt count since Obi-Wan improved since then. Sidious taking out 3 jedis quickly doesnt mean that much after seeing General Grevious defeat 5 Jedis at once.
Yes Lucas has said that. But you know Lucas is also a fallible character known to make mistakes. Lol.. he at least should not have left out Anakin, as Nick Gillard already said Anakin was a level 9 Saber duelist in ROTS. Thats how the fights were choreographed anyway. and after Anakin took out Dooku, I think its quite obvious that he could at Least COMPETE with Sidious.

Neway im just adressing some of your points.. im not saying Obi-Wan can outduel Sidious. Although in a Saber Only fight, he could probably last quite a while due to his mastery of Soresu. Iv already said Mace would have a much better chance agianst Sidious than Obi-Wan due to Vapaad. But that doesnt mean Mace would win against Obi-Wan.

Anakin would stand a much better chance against Sidious than Obi-Wan would. Anakin took Dooku, which Obi-Wan could not. But that didnt mean Obi-Wan culdnt take Anakin in the end did it.