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Lets sub in padawan anakin for padawan luke.

No, because vader wasn't serious in ESB, he was toying with luke.

And hw as toying with Luke in ROTJ too....
He's always toying with people.
Amazing how toying looks exactly like he's getting beaten and thank the heavens Vader has that armor or he'd be dead right now thanks to ESB Luke.

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
And hw as toying with Luke in ROTJ too....
He's always toying with people.
Amazing how toying looks exactly like he's getting beaten and thank the heavens Vader has that armor or he'd be dead right now thanks to ESB Luke. If you read any EU novels which is pretty clear you don't that luke stated at ANY given point of time during the duels in TESB or ROTJ, vader could have easily killed him had he wanted to. You seem to forget that vaders intention in BOTH movies was to turn luke, NOT kill him.

Now, if vader were under the orders of palpatine to TURN luke, NOT kill him.

And as for TESB i think it is pretty clear that vader wasn't trying to kill luke or immobalise him until he let his guard down when luke wacked his shoulder.

Oh and please DO quantify and substantiate that he "always toys with people" seeing that when he gets serious he can easily kill most of his opponents such as that duel in the purge where he quickly tools 4 out of 7 jedi knights before getting backstabbed and nearly killed.

One burning question, are you nikkolas or 123kid?

not to be argumentative
but luke is not a 3rd person omniscient source so if he says vader couldve killed him, that doesnt neccesarily make it true

luke wasnt going all out against vader in rotj either because luke was trying to turn vader too.

Originally posted by Man of Christ
not to be argumentative
but luke is not a 3rd person omniscient source so if he says vader couldve killed him, that doesnt neccesarily make it true Apparantly it IS true so accept it pal and move on with life. By your logic i should discredit anything any SW character says if nothing out of universe states it.

Don't be pathetic.

Originally posted by Ivalice
Apparantly it IS true so accept it pal and move on with life. By your logic i should discredit anything any SW character says if nothing out of universe states it.

Don't be pathetic.

ad hominum attacks are unnecessary.

i didnt say discredit it completely.

i just said IT WASNT GOOD ENOUGH.
as luke is not perfect

Originally posted by Man of Christ


i didnt say discredit it completely.

i just said IT WASNT GOOD ENOUGH.
as luke is not perfect Oh but the thing is it IS GOOD ENOUGH seeing vaders incredible force mastery and combat prowess which he had NOT demonstrated during both movies, so yes lukes statement is sure as hell good enough.

Originally posted by Ivalice
Oh but the thing is it IS GOOD ENOUGH seeing vaders incredible force mastery and combat prowess which he had NOT demonstrated during both movies, so yes lukes statement is sure as hell good enough.

luke is not 3rd person of omnipotent, end of story

People here, by the excepction of Ivalice, are highly underestimating Vader.

Originally posted by Man of Christ
luke is not 3rd person of omnipotent, end of story Then i should discredit everything any sw character says(by your logic). Shut zeh hell up end of story.

Originally posted by Ivalice
Then i should discredit everything any sw character says(by your logic). Shut zeh hell up end of story.

did you read what i just wrote above that?

im not saying that you discredit it just tht A CHARACTER'S WORDS ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH, couple his words with some CONCRETE EVIDENCE, then we'll talk. BUT A CHARACTER'S OPINION ALONE IS NOT PROOF.

Originally posted by Man of Christ
did you read what i just wrote above that?

im not saying that you discredit it just tht A CHARACTER'S WORDS ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH, couple his words with some CONCRETE EVIDENCE, then we'll talk. BUT A CHARACTER'S OPINION ALONE IS NOT PROOF. Then how about other novels comics and the movie itself you prick which clearly depicted vader as being an extremely powerful individual whom at any given point of time could annihilate luke in those 2 duels had he chose to use the force along with the fact that luke stated vader could have killed him easily?

Now would you kindly shut the hell up before i f*ck your backside? There IS enough evidence to prove lukes point, The ONLY problem is that you are too incompetent to do your damn research or look up at more EU material which depicts vaders incredible combat prowess.

I do think Luke's opinion on Vader is a 100% right. He has fought him to my knowledge 3 times so I would say he can judge his powers accurately. He also recognizes the fact that Vader wanted to him to turn to the darkside during the duels so he would know Vader wanted him alive. Furthermore Luke probably know where his skills rank at the time(courtship of princess Leia), plus the person he is fighting in the novel where he made the comments almost killed him and I know that person was weaker than Vader. So I can't see why Vader would not be able to kill Luke had he wanted to. So Luke's assessment is accurate.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
I do think Luke's opinion on Vader is a 100% right. He has fought him to my knowledge 3 times so I would say he can judge his powers accurately. He also recognizes the fact that Vader wanted to him to turn to the darkside during the duels so he would know Vader wanted him alive. Furthermore Luke probably know where his skills rank at the time(courtship of princess Leia), plus the person he is fighting in the novel where he made the comments almost killed him and I know that person was weaker than Vader. So I can't see why Vader would not be able to kill Luke had he wanted to. So Luke's assessment is accurate.


despite that luke was holding back too?

and that once luke got mad, vader didnt seem to be able to stop him or to call upon these powers you say he has.

Originally posted by Ivalice
Then how about other novels comics and the movie itself you prick which clearly depicted vader as being an extremely powerful individual whom at any given point of time could annihilate luke in those 2 duels had he chose to use the force along with the fact that luke stated vader could have killed him easily?

Now would you kindly shut the hell up before i f*ck your backside? There IS enough evidence to prove lukes point, The ONLY problem is that you are too incompetent to do your damn research or look up at more EU material which depicts vaders incredible combat prowess.

I forgive you for you sins of cursing at me.
I have done nothing to you.

but allow me to give you an example of the falability of characters

upon confronting siddious yoda said "at an end your rule is, and not short enough it was"

but after the duel he said "into exile i must go, failed i have'

this shows that just cause a character says it doesnt mean its true. YOU NEED PROOF NOT JUST WORDS.

Originally posted by Man of Christ
despite that luke was holding back too?

and that once luke got mad, vader didnt seem to be able to stop him or to call upon these powers you say he has.

Because Vader didn't want to kill Luke otherwise there was a good chance that he would never be able to succeed Sidious as the DLOTS without Luke's aid, and when they both were holding back Vader was still winning the ROTJ duel. And once again Luke fought Vader atleast 3 times so he should have a good reading on Vader's power in relation to his own. Luke was in the process of being killed an opponent lesser that Vader so that also supports Luke opinion. Where is the proof that states otherwise? Oh wait there is none!


The proof has been given to you in the battles that Luke could only beat Vader by using the darkside. Luke admits Vader could have killed him when Luke was fighting a force witch I believe.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Because Vader didn't want to kill Luke otherwise there was a good chance that he would never be able to succeed Sidious as the DLOTS without Luke's aid, and when they both were holding back Vader was still winning the ROTJ duel. And once again Luke fought Vader atleast 3 times so he should have a good reading on Vader's power in relation to his own. Luke was in the process of being killed an opponent lesser that Vader so that also supports Luke opinion. Where is the proof that states otherwise? Oh wait there is none!

when was vader ever in control of the rotj duel?

Originally posted by Man of Christ
when was vader ever in control of the rotj duel?

After Luke got the one kick to Vader,Vader was the one causing Luke to retreat until(no matter what the circumstances were, Vader was dictating duel)the end where Luke gave into the darkside.

EDIT:Another thing I would like to point about your Yoda comment is that Yoda has never actually fought Sidious before while Luke fought Vader at least 3 times and lived so it is no surprise that Luke can compare his skills to Vader's.

Ivalice, tone down the vulgarity. You're on thin ice as it is, no pun intended. There is no need for that kind of talk, no matter where the debate is going.

As for Luke's word being unreliable... I don't think so. I would count on Luke's word to be pretty accurate. He's no swordmaster by Return of the Jedi, but he certainly has had dueling experience against Lord Vader to be able to compare himself, as Elite Hunter has stated. If Luke feels that Vader could have destroyed him easily, then he probably could have.

Not to mention that, indeed, Vader was not trying to obliterate Luke in their duels during Empire and Return of the Jedi.

Originally posted by Man of Christ


and that once luke got mad, vader didnt seem to be able to stop him or to call upon these powers you say he has. Maybe you forgot the fact that he can't because he was constantly getting wacked by a lightsaber and had to put his up or he would have gotten killed.

Originally posted by Man of Christ


upon confronting siddious yoda said "at an end your rule is, and not short enough it was"

but after the duel he said "into exile i must go, failed i have'

this shows that just cause a character says it doesnt mean its true. YOU NEED PROOF NOT JUST WORDS. Again, learn to read pal.

I myself already had stated that the movies books and novels and comics were a clear indication of how powerful vader is and the movies itself already showed that vader could have killed luke at any time.

Its so sad you just cannot and will not accept this fact man of christ solely due to the fact that you are too incompetent to read anything i have mentioned or read more EU material which depicts superiority.

Now man of christ, post your same pile of shit and i swear i will humiliate and own you infront of the entire forums with overwhelming evidence if you don't shut the hell up.

Originally posted by Ivalice
Maybe you forgot the fact that he can't because he was constantly getting wacked by a lightsaber and had to put his up or he would have gotten killed.

]

cursing is neither neccesary nor civil.

now to your argument.

if vader was able to kill him at ANY moment as you say then there is no "he cant'" because durring those moments too vader couldve put up a good defense but he doesnt

Vader was trying to bait Luke to the Dark side, not kill him, but at the end he definitely just lost control of the fight.

That said, were the two going at it for real, Vader would annihilate his son. Luke lacks the age and experience, training, skill, and realized power to compete with him.

Originally posted by Man of Christ


if vader was able to kill him at ANY moment as you say then there is no "he cant'" because durring those moments too vader couldve put up a good defense but he doesnt My god you are an idiot beyond belief, YES IT IS necessary because you are either stupid or just to damn lazy to read.

Uh what moments vader could have put up a defence? What force technique did luke unleash on vader? Think about what you are typing pal, you make absolutely ZERO sense.

Here we have FOUR people(Me, elite hunter, captain rex and faunus) stating the same thing that vaders INTENTION was to pull luke to the dark side on BOTH occasions and THUS unable to kill him, ok you get it?

Now, if you STILL can't get our points that lukes statement is STILL valid then you should go lock yourself up in a mental institution.

You got that? KTHXBAI!

Originally posted by Ivalice
My god you are an idiot beyond belief, YES IT IS necessary because you are either stupid or just to damn lazy to read.

Uh what moments vader could have put up a defence? What force technique did luke unleash on vader? Think about what you are typing pal, you make absolutely ZERO sense.

Here we have FOUR people(Me, elite hunter, captain rex and faunus) stating the same thing that vaders INTENTION was to pull luke to the dark side on BOTH occasions and THUS unable to kill him, ok you get it?

Now, if you STILL can't get our points that lukes statement is STILL valid then you should go lock yourself up in a mental institution.

You got that? KTHXBAI!

what about yourself are you insecure?
that you feel the need to curse?
be rude?
rough childhood.?

Originally posted by Man of Christ
what about yourself are you insecure?
that you feel the need to curse?
be rude?
rough childhood.? Nope, i just feel the need to point out your stupidity. If i felt insecure i wouldn't waste my money getting a gaming comp let alone argue with an individual whom has demonstrated stupidity beyond "the rictor scale".

Why did i insult you? Because i repeated the same thing over and over again as to WHY lukes statement is valid, but you just can't accept it can you? Along with the fact that OTHER individuals were trying to tell you the same thing. Your just too damn stubborn to listen hence(And i am not surprised) i'm not the first person to attack you.

Oh BTW, that was a lame half ass comeback.

So MOC like in a previous thread last year, I ask you for proof that Luke could be Vader had Vader been trying to kill him, especially without using the darkside.

Originally posted by Ivalice
Nope, i just feel the need to point out your stupidity. If i felt insecure i wouldn't waste my money getting a gaming comp let alone argue with an individual whom has demonstrated stupidity beyond "the rictor scale".

Why did i insult you? Because i repeated the same thing over and over again as to WHY lukes statement is valid, but you just can't accept it can you? Along with the fact that OTHER individuals were trying to tell you the same thing. Your just too damn stubborn to listen hence(And i am not surprised) i'm not the first person to attack you.

Oh BTW, that was a lame half ass comeback.
it wasnt a come back

i was wondering how you could be so hateful

also how you could be so forgetful in not regarding the rules which calll you not to be vulgar

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
So MOC like in a previous thread last year, I ask you for proof that Luke could be Vader had Vader been trying to kill him, especially without using the darkside.

Thank you elite hunter for showing civility in this board.

and to address your question i stated that luke seemed to be in control of the duel while on the lightside as you see when they first start dueling, niethier duelist is backing up but then luke kicks vader down the steps.

(granted they didnt have cgi or nick gilliard back then but this is still an impressive feat)

he could have pressed the attack on that level

Knock it off, Ivalice. Last time I'm going to say it. It doesn't matter how stupid you believe Man of Christ to be, you can't insult him or anyone else, or you can't participate.

Originally posted by Man of Christ
Thank you elite hunter for showing civility in this board.

It's what I'm here for



Then the next part of the duel is Vader on the offensive with Luke being force to retreat twice (up onto that bridge-like structure,then went into hiding) prior to using the darkside


Onto what level?

Furthermore I would also like to point out that Vader has beaten more experience opponents(jedi) when he is going all out and that Luke even after ROTJ is having trouble with a force witch(nearly killed him), which is not on the level of a Dark Lord of the Sith such as Vader who can rival other sith like Malak,Dooku,etc. and I highl doubt ROTJ Luke can compete with them.

I realized that I never gave an opinion about this battle. I would have to say that AOTC Anakin>ESB Luke due to more training but since ESB Vader wanted to keep Luke alive it is possible for Luke to last longer vs Vader since Vader would have no reason for Anakin to live. Though if he goes all out on both of them Anakin would last a little longer.

How many limbs did Vader lose? 8 I think. The guy could go on Wheel of Fortune and lose a limb to Pat while Vanna turns over the letters to spell Return of the Jedi.

Let's see...

Anakin lost his hand in AOTC to Dooku, then the mechanical limb on Nelvaan in the Clone Wars cartoon, then lost his arm and both legs to Obi-Wan in ROTS, then a mechanical limb in Jedi Purge, then a mechanical limb to Luke with distractions from Obi-Wan's spirit (I forget when), then his hand in ROTJ.

So yup, eight!

Didn't Sidious take one of Vader's hand at one point?



I think I know what you are referring to but I thought obiwan was either possessing Luke or guiding his lightsaber. The book was called "Splinter of the Mind's Eye"

And this conclusion is based on what evidence? If one wishes to take Mr. Zahn's narrative as it was intended, Joruus C'Baoth might actually be on par or superior to the Emperor himself -- Zahn certainly implied it numerous times, during C'Baoth's rants how he mastered the Force on a level "beyond the Emperor"; during Mara Jade's own internal narrative that she'd never experienced anything even from the Emperor; even Lando Calrissian comes to the conclusion that "C'Baoth is at least as dangerous as the Emperor was. Perhaps even moreso" -- yet we know for a fact that that isn't true. The story was ultimately retconned that Joruus C'Baoth was cloned from genetic tissue taken from the original host, Jorus C'Boath, during the various batteries of tests taken from the Jedi Master before he could depart on the Outbound Flight project. Let us also not forget George Lucas's own decisive statements on the matter: Palpatine was always on the lookout for someone who could be stronger than him in the Force. It's no surprise that Vader turned out to be a colossal disappointment in the Dark Lord's eyes. Sidious had knowledge of Joruus (he created him!), so if C'Baoth were indeed more powerful than Vader, is it not logical to assume that Sidious would want to take the cloned Jedi Master as an apprentice?

Maybe because Joruus was completely batshit insane.
I'd take a weaker but sane second-in-command over a guy who may fly off the handle at any time and try to kill me.

Originally posted by Ivalice
Does it matter if luke even intended to kill vader had vader wanted to kill luke in the firs place? I think common sense alone says that vader is far superior to ROTJ luke in the force.

Your quote which i will list blow really shows me your true intellect .

Amazing how toying looks exactly like he's getting beaten and thank the heavens Vader has that armor or he'd be dead right now thanks to ESB Luke.

Lol? HOW exactly was he getting beaten when the result of the duel in TESB that luke had his hand hacked off in the process?

Face it pyron, QUIT acting like your a debater.

i know this is hard for you but Ivalice i ask that you act like a civilized individual and please stop bashing us.

the point pyronknight is making is that if vader didnt have that armor then that one hit luke got in in ESB would have seriously damaged him but getting to the point

luke is not omnicient so it is possible that his statement is flawed and lets face it. vader is luke's father. although my own father is dead ,i know that if i had to fight him while he was still living i would be scared as well .
and if i won based on my skills, i wouldnt say i won because of my skills but because he let me win. its the fear/respect associated with the father position. that causes luke to say this but if you watch ROTJ closesly vader gains no ground in that duel.

Originally posted by Man of Christ
i know this is hard for you but Ivalice i ask that you act like a civilized individual and please stop bashing us.
Im not going to bash if if you pay attentio and accept the fact that you are wrong.

If i was the one who was wrong and arguing like a broken record, faunus would step in and tear my arguments to shreds which in this case he actually is backing up my point.
Originally posted by Man of Christ

the point pyronknight is making is that if vader didnt have that armor then that one hit luke got in in ESB would have seriously damaged him but getting to the point And he forget that it was due to the fact of vader not taking him seriously and after he got hit, vader got serious and THEN proceeded to hack his hand off without any effort.
Originally posted by Man of Christ

luke is not omnicient so it is possible that his statement is flawed and lets face it.
He is in this case, and please quantify and substantiate how it is flawed? Did we see vader even attempting to unleash the full power of the dark side in the ROTJ duel?

And this statement comes from an intellect known as faunus whom is more credible than both you and pyron knight in this forum(no offence seriously)


Vader was trying to bait Luke to the Dark side, not kill him, but at the end he definitely just lost control of the fight.

That said, were the two going at it for real, Vader would annihilate his son. Luke lacks the age and experience, training, skill, and realized power to compete with him.

Originally posted by Man of Christ

vader is luke's father. although my own father is dead ,i know that if i had to fight him while he was still living i would be scared as well .
and if i won based on my skills, i wouldnt say i won because of my skills but because he let me win. its the fear/respect associated with the father position. that causes luke to say this but if you watch ROTJ closesly vader gains no ground in that duel. And why did he not gain ground? Let me respond to that sentance i highlighted in bold.

Vader-was-not-trying-to-kill-luke. U-n-d-e-r-s-t-a-n-d? vader was h-o-l-d-i-n-g b-a-c-k and lost control of the fight.

Because Vader would never have done that if he didn't have the armor...he would have lost then and there thanks to that one hit by Luke.

Originally posted by Ivalice
Eh? Do you know how to read? Do you know how to reason logically? Did you forget that vader was holding back the ENTIRE time? Did you forget that luke stated vader could have KILLED him had vader wanted to even if luke intended to kill him?

Vader then throws his saber at Luke and then the taunting followed by Luke pwning Vader commences.




And that "crippled half droid" was powerful enough to rip out an entire bridge, crush the trunk of a huge tree effortlessly, break the necks of ten beings all at the same time, grab his secret apprentice(in the cutscene showed in the trailer) and flinging him like ragdoll and choke xizor millions of lightyears away in the bounty hunter wars.

You SEROUSLY underestimate vader despite him being as nearly as the most powerful sith lord in history.

self control. You should try it sometime.
look vader is one of my favorite characters too but luke still takes this.
i know what luke stated and i already addressed that. is PSYCHOLOGY.

i could go one by one and address how each of those examples of force feats by vader are insufficient to prove your point but i will stick to the short and the sweet by stating that.

none of those objects you mentioned could use the force to resist like luke can,. ten beings lol they were just dogs dude. if thats the case then michael vick is a powerful sith too.

Originally posted by Man of Christ
self control. You should try it sometime. Accept that you are WRONG. You should DO it when some one defeats your arguments you should also do it when you have nothing to bck up your arguments.

Originally posted by Man of Christ

look vader is one of my favorite characters too but luke still takes this.
Quantify and substantiate.

Originally posted by Man of Christ

i know what luke stated and i already addressed that. is PSYCHOLOGY. No. Coupled with all of vaders feats and superiority in the force, it merely takes common sense to agree with luke.
Originally posted by Man of Christ

i could go one by one and address how each of those examples of force feats by vader are insufficient to prove your point but i will stick to the short and the sweet by stating that. LMFAOROFLCOPTER. Ripping out a bridge easily and choking opponents millions of lightyears away is insufficient to prove that he is more powerful than someone whom has insufficient force experience to put him on par with someone as nearly powerful as sidious?


Originally posted by Man of Christ

none of those objects you mentioned could use the force to resist like luke can,. ten beings lol they were just dogs dude. if thats the case then michael vick is a powerful sith too. Prove that lukes resistance as of ROTJ is so almighty as you are trying to imply, considering that luke couldn't even take a hit from sidious lightning(which by the way was to merely tortue luke) whereas vader on the other hand took a full blast from sidious after sidious stated that he is going to kill luke and still had enough power to carry sidious while getting shocked and hurl his ass down a shaft.

Again about those 10 dogs, what would happen if a jedi failed to conjure up a force defence or put up a defence? The same would happen pal. Or better yet, vader could shatter his defences as vader is far superior to him in the force as of the OT.

MOC, i seriously suggest you quit debating with me. I am not surprised that i was the only one whom attacked you, darth sexy is on the other hand and he is just as credible as most of the other very good debaters in these forums.

Elite hunter says your wrong, hes more credible than you. FAUNUS himself backed my point considering the fact that if i said something wrong, he comes up and tear me to shreds, but in this case, he has the same opinion as i do. That vader, if he wanted to could have annihilated luke.

My request, if you don't want to get attacked by people in this forum(which i have observed some other members has been doing). Then QUIT arguing like a BROKEN record. Its of if you want to take part but if your wrong and someone PROVES you wrong, then its just best to shut it and accept it.

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Because Vader would never have done that if he didn't have the armor...he would have lost then and there thanks to that one hit by Luke. But how does that equate to him getting beaten in TESB, you have YET to answer my question or are you unable to conjure anything up?

Originally posted by Ivalice
Accept that you are WRONG. You should DO it when some one defeats your arguments you should also do it when you have nothing to bck up your arguments.


Quantify and substantiate.

No. Coupled with all of vaders feats and superiority in the force, it merely takes common sense to agree with luke.
LMFAOROFLCOPTER. Ripping out a bridge easily and choking opponents millions of lightyears away is insufficient to prove that he is more powerful than someone whom has insufficient force experience to put him on par with someone as nearly powerful as sidious?


Prove that lukes resistance as of ROTJ is so almighty as you are trying to imply, considering that luke couldn't even take a hit from sidious lightning(which by the way was to merely tortue luke) whereas vader on the other hand took a full blast from sidious after sidious stated that he is going to kill luke and still had enough power to carry sidious while getting shocked and hurl his ass down a shaft.

Again about those 10 dogs, what would happen if a jedi failed to conjure up a force defence or put up a defence? The same would happen pal. Or better yet, vader could shatter his defences as vader is far superior to him in the force as of the OT.

luke can force choke too, so thats not too uncommon and again force choke is just force tk focused on the trachea any force user can do it
again luke could still get up like its nothing after being shocked by sid's lightening for like 3 minutes. now a few seconds of this lighting would kill a normal human being.

luke got up after taking 3 straight minutes of it
vader fell out after taking 10 seconds of it

luke has greater force resistance

Originally posted by Man of Christ
luke can force choke too, so thats not too uncommon and again force choke is just force tk focused on the trachea any force user can do it
Any weakling can do it. The REAL question is could he choke an opponent millions of lightyears away like vader? Could he do it as effectively as vader?
Originally posted by Man of Christ


again luke could still get up like its nothing after being shocked by sid's lightening for like 3 minutes. now a few seconds of this lighting would kill a normal human being. Oh god did you just read my post, sidious was TORTURING luke at first, NOT trying to kill him.
Originally posted by Man of Christ

luke got up after taking 3 straight minutes of it
vader fell out after taking 10 seconds of it That was because vader took a FULL BLAST of lightning whereas luke was merely getting TORTURED. OH and you FORGOT that vader is naturally WEAK to lightning no matter how great his resistance is because of his SUIT.


Originally posted by Man of Christ

luke has greater force resistance No.

Originally posted by Ivalice
Any weakling can do it. The REAL question is could he choke an opponent millions of lightyears away like vader? Could he do it as effectively as vader?
Oh god did you just read my post, sidious was TORTURING luke at first, NOT trying to kill him.
That was because vader took a FULL BLAST of lightning whereas luke was merely getting TORTURED. OH and you FORGOT that vader is naturally WEAK to lightning no matter how great his resistance is because of his SUIT.


No.

prove that the wattage of the shock luke took differed from the one vader took

Originally posted by Man of Christ
prove that the wattage of the shock luke took differed from the one vader took Notice how after getting shocked for a while and sidious finally says "Now you will die" and then starts shooting out bolts and gets interrupted by vader?

Originally posted by Ivalice
Notice how after getting shocked for a while and sidious finally says "Now you will die" and then starts shooting out bolts and gets interrupted by vader?

ok i just watched it again and the bolts look the same
but even if we went with that argument lets look at it

after being tortured and subject to about 30 seconds of the "killing" variety of force lightening, luke getsup like its nothing, but vader drops like a fly. thus proving the extent of lukes force resistance.
one bolt knocked yoda out but luke sustained continuous bolts.

Originally posted by Man of Christ
ok i just watched it again and the bolts look the same
but even if we went with that argument lets look at it You claimed you have watched it, you can't tell the intensity of lightning by merely looking at it.

Quit arguing like a broken record,
Originally posted by Man of Christ

after being tortured and subject to about 30 seconds of the "killing" variety of force lightening, luke getsup like its nothing,
Because torturing someone is not as dangerous and powerful as actually killing some one?
Originally posted by Man of Christ

but vader drops like a fly. thus proving the extent of lukes force resistance.
NO it DOES NOT. Again how bad can be your reading abilities? Have you forgot that one shock of lightning no matter how great his force resistance will shut down his suit controls thus killing him?
Originally posted by Man of Christ

one bolt knocked yoda out but luke sustained continuous bolts. And that one bolt was a very powerful blast whereas the bolt which hit luke WAS NOT MEANT TO KILL HIM meaning it was to TORTURE him.



Seriously man of christ you need to shut the hell up. Your arguments have been defeated time and again and you argue and argue and argue and argue like a condemned broken record.

Really MOC. If lukes resistance is so god damned almighty as you claim and failed to prove and will never prove, how come he didn't "Resist" sidious lightning and get up in the process to kill him? Why lay there SCREAMING in pain BEGGING for his father to help him?

The whole point of him SCREAMING and BEGGING for help shows that he COULD NOT resist the lightning.

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Maybe because Joruus was completely batshit insane.

Which, in Zahn's opinion, would actually make him easier to control.



Yes, and I wouldn't be looking for a subordinate who could potentially overpower and destroy me, but Sidious did. It's not as though Vader himself was a beacon of stability. The fact remains that if one is going to assert that C'Baoth outclassed Vader (of which there is no proof), one would also have to assert -- as per the Thrawn trilogy itself -- that C'Baoth was equal to or superior than Sidious himself.

Originally posted by Man of Christ
ok i just watched it again and the bolts look the same
but even if we went with that argument lets look at it

after being tortured and subject to about 30 seconds of the "killing" variety of force lightening, luke getsup like its nothing, but vader drops like a fly. thus proving the extent of lukes force resistance.
one bolt knocked yoda out but luke sustained continuous bolts. I know Ivalice already covered this but, you're not by chance suggesting that because Luke withstood Sidious' lightning longer than say, Yoda or Mace, that he's... on par with them?

Because, if that was Sidious' best lightning attack on all three of 'em, then that would be what you're saying. Unless of course you mean that it WASN'T Sidious' best attack, which reduces it to a level which is meant to torture the very last of the Jedi, and thus, Sidious and the Sith's last enemy. But isn't that what you're negating?

And since any amount of electricity, especially from Sidious, would fry Vader's circuits, then you can't possibly be arguing that Luke was naturally more powerful than his father simply because such a specific attack kills him.

Tell that to Thrawn.



Of which there is no proof? Well, Joruus can on a whim freeze freeze over 37,000 men. This feat is only surpassed by Exar's freezing of the Senate.
Furthermore C'baoth could literally rip out chunks' of other people's brains and replace them with his own using just his telepathy.
Vader has nothing on C'baoth's demonstrated mental capabilities with the dark side.

Oh and he brought down a fighter-class ship with just rocks using his TK.

Originally posted by Ivalice
You claimed you have watched it, you can't tell the intensity of lightning by merely looking at it.

Quit arguing like a broken record,
Because torturing someone is not as dangerous and powerful as actually killing some one?
NO it DOES NOT. Again how bad can be your reading abilities? Have you forgot that one shock of lightning no matter how great his force resistance will shut down his suit controls thus killing him?
And that one bolt was a very powerful blast whereas the bolt which hit luke WAS NOT MEANT TO KILL HIM meaning it was to TORTURE him.



Seriously man of christ you need to shut the hell up. Your arguments have been defeated time and again and you argue and argue and argue and argue like a condemned broken record.

Really MOC. If lukes resistance is so god damned almighty as you claim and failed to prove and will never prove, how come he didn't "Resist" sidious lightning and get up in the process to kill him? Why lay there SCREAMING in pain BEGGING for his father to help him?

The whole point of him SCREAMING and BEGGING for help shows that he COULD NOT resist the lightning.

again luke got up like it was nothing from continuous bolts of sidious, lightening.
you can tell from sidious furred brow and facial expression that he was putting his all into the force lightening, especially the last time but does it kill luke?
no! the worse thing that happens is luke sweats.
but he got up right after it happened and still had the strength to cary vader off the death star.
thats some pretty frekin high stamina and resistance.

and you keep breaking the rules in your cursing. please be mature.

couldnt sids fry people to ashes with his lightning?..if so he would have owned luke with one hit if he really tried..

Originally posted by MadMel
couldnt sids fry people to ashes with his lightning?..if so he would have owned luke with one hit if he really tried..

he did try hence the phrases like 'you will pay for your lack of vision'
'you will die etc...'

Originally posted by Man of Christ
again luke got up like it was nothing from continuous bolts of sidious, lightening. And you keep forgetting that the lightning unleashed by sidious was to an extent where it would not kill him but merely inflict pain which would be non fatal. Had luke actually resisted the lightning he wouldn't have been BEGGING for his daddy to help him.
Originally posted by Man of Christ

you can tell from sidious furred brow and facial expression that he was putting his all into the force lightening, especially the last time but does it kill luke?
ROFLCOPTER, have you read the essential guide to characters that sidious was torturing luke and not trying to kill him in the first place. The very fact that you refuse to accept this despite it being repeated so many times only shows me your lack of maturity and hyper ignorance.

Palpatine had one concern left: the venting of his awesome rage. Even to kill Skywalker was not enough; he had to suffer for his defiance. Raising his arms, Palpatine released a withering barrage of Force lightning that tore through the boy and brought him to his knees. Skywalker had never been trained to repel such an assault, nor could he call on his saber to block it. He taunted the Jedi without pause

^ your friend wookiepedia says this. Since you ignore logic and common sense and since you can't debate logically nor accept any bodies arguments, i'll just have to rip a passage of wookie to smack it in your face.

If he could actually resist it he wouldn't have falled on his knees and then roll on the floor screaming like a spoilt brat begging for candy.

Face it MOC, you CANNOT debate, you NEVER will be able to debate, You will NEVER learn to reason logically, you will NEVER be able to voice your opinion which some one will take seriously.
Originally posted by Man of Christ

no! the worse thing that happens is luke sweats.
but he got up right after it happened and still had the strength to cary vader off the death star. Again if he was so almighty with his resistance why didn't he deflect or repel the attack in the first place, why was he SCREAMING IN PAIN if he was resisting it the whole time? Why was he screaming "FATHER... PLEASE!"

Originally posted by Man of Christ

thats some pretty frekin high stamina and resistance. See the above.
Originally posted by Man of Christ

and you keep breaking the rules in your cursing. please be mature. Lol? Please be mature? Are you the number 1 hypocrite? You get overwhelmed with evidence and you still argue like a broken record. Even nebaris and s_w_legend know when to stop when they get overwhelmed.

Originally posted by Man of Christ
he did try hence the phrases like 'you will pay for your lack of vision'
'you will die etc...' You will die was AFTER torturing luke, just as the essential guide of characters stated he TORTURED luke and was not even trying to kill him yet. He wanted luke to SUFFER not DIE YET.

And just a question. How old are you MOC? Are you a 12 year old? 10 year old? Or an 8 year old? Your certeinly don't know when to shut up ESPECIALLY when you get defeated in an argument that you failed to even last in and the fact you don't capitalise. You too are demonstrating the intellect of a 12 year old.

Originally posted by Ivalice
And you keep forgetting that the lightning unleashed by sidious was to an extent where it would not kill him but merely inflict pain which would be non fatal. Had luke actually resisted the lightning he wouldn't have been BEGGING for his daddy to help him.
ROFLCOPTER, have you read the essential guide to characters that sidious was torturing luke and not trying to kill him in the first place. The very fact that you refuse to accept this despite it being repeated so many times only shows me your lack of maturity and hyper ignorance.

Palpatine had one concern left: the venting of his awesome rage. Even to kill Skywalker was not enough; he had to suffer for his defiance. Raising his arms, Palpatine released a withering barrage of Force lightning that tore through the boy and brought him to his knees. Skywalker had never been trained to repel such an assault, nor could he call on his saber to block it. He taunted the Jedi without pause

^ your friend wookiepedia says this. Since you ignore logic and common sense and since you can't debate logically nor accept any bodies arguments, i'll just have to rip a passage of wookie to smack it in your face.

If he could actually resist it he wouldn't have falled on his knees and then roll on the floor screaming like a spoilt brat begging for candy.

Face it MOC, you CANNOT debate, you NEVER will be able to debate, You will NEVER learn to reason logically, you will NEVER be able to voice your opinion which some one will take seriously.
Again if he was so almighty with his resistance why didn't he deflect or repel the attack in the first place, why was he SCREAMING IN PAIN if he was resisting it the whole time? Why was he screaming "FATHER... PLEASE!"

See the above.
Lol? Please be mature? Are you the number 1 hypocrite? You get overwhelmed with evidence and you still argue like a broken record. Even nebaris and s_w_legend know when to stop when they get overwhelmed.

You will die was AFTER torturing luke, just as the essential guide of characters stated he TORTURED luke and was not even trying to kill him yet. He wanted luke to SUFFER not DIE YET.

And just a question. How old are you MOC? Are you a 12 year old? 10 year old? Or an 8 year old? Your certeinly don't know when to shut up ESPECIALLY when you get defeated in an argument that you failed to even last in and the fact you don't capitalise. You too are demonstrating the intellect of a 12 year old.
all you do is rant and rave
try calming down. since you agreed to the right to post on this forum you agreed to not bash other members. i have not bashed you yet you continue to bash me.
try being a gentleman.

the text said he had not been trained to resist it.
i have not been trained to drive a car but if i get behind the wheel i could probably know somewhat what i am doing.

in the case of luke even if you are arguing that the last bolt of lightening was intended to kill him, a normal human being would be dead after a few seconds of that.
you saw how after a 1 second of dookus lightening AOTC anakin was out for a few minutes
but after siddious' killer lightening luke got up INSTANTLY merely sweating.

and please, find better things to than to insult me.

Manslayer is a 100% right. Luke had only recieved lightning intended to torture him not kill him,Sidious wants Luke to realize he made a mistake by not turning to the darkside and staking his father's place. But Sidious never got to unleash his lightning that was intended to kill Luke due to Vader's betrayal.

I also find the idea of Luke >Vader due to the affects of lightning on them and how long they lasted 100% absurd. Vader is naturally weak against lightning in his suit,well guess what so was Darth Bane in his orbalisk armor but does the make ROTJ Luke better than Bane? NO!

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Manslayer is a 100% right. Luke had only recieved lightning intended to torture him not kill him,Sidious wants Luke to realize he made a mistake by not turning to the darkside and staking his father's place. But Sidious never got to unleash his lightning that was intended to kill Luke due to Vader's betrayal.

I also find the idea of Luke >Vader due to the affects of lightning on them and how long they lasted 100% absurd. Vader is naturally weak against lightning in his suit,well guess what so was Darth Bane in his orbalisk armor but does the make ROTJ Luke better than Bane? NO!

"and now young skywalker, you will die"

thus he was trying to kill him

and the fact that luke got up unafected by that speaks to his endurance

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Tell that to Thrawn.

Grand Admiral Thrawn believed the exact same thing, despite Captain Pellaeon's fervent warnings.



This line of thought is ridiculous, Pyron. Palpatine himself has never been shown to "freeze over 37,000 men", is he now weaker than C'baoth?



This line of thought is ridiculous, Pyron. Palpatine himself has never been shown to "rip out chunks of people's brains and replace them with his own using just telepathy", is he now weaker than C'baoth?



The fact that Sidious was searching for a stronger candidate for his apprentice, happened to create C'baoth and thus be aware of his existence, and relegated him to guard dog status on some backward planet would seem to indicate that the Emperor didn't give two shits about C'baoth at all.



Good for him. But to argue this point would be to argue that C'baoth rivals or surpasses the Emperor himself in acquired ability, as was clearly Zahn's intent when he created the character. Further canon has relegated C'baoth to the status of a powerful, insane dark Jedi who ultimately does not compare to the "two most powerful beings in the galaxy" (Death Star).

Originally posted by Man of Christ
all you do is rant and rave
And all you do is argue like a broken record.
Originally posted by Man of Christ

try calming down.
Try shutting the hell up and accept the fact that you are wrong
Originally posted by Man of Christ

since you agreed to the right to post on this forum you agreed to not bash other members. i have not bashed you yet you continue to bash me.
I am not "bashing" you. I am simply telling you to shut up because not only have i destroyed your posts but OTHER people are saying i am right.
Originally posted by Man of Christ

try being a gentleman. Try and be more intelligent.
Originally posted by Man of Christ

the text said he had not been trained to resist it.
If he can't defend it he can't resist it.

You just seem to forget the more powerful the individual, the higher his resistance is and luke as of ROTJ is no powerhouse and still weak in the force.
Originally posted by Man of Christ

i have not been trained to drive a car but if i get behind the wheel i could probably know somewhat what i am doing. Stupid analogy.

If i can't block a punch i'm not going to be able to endure it.
Originally posted by Man of Christ

in the case of luke even if you are arguing that the last bolt of lightening was intended to kill him, a normal human being would be dead after a few seconds of that.

Correct which only backs my point that he wasn't trying to kill luke at first seeing that human beings can tolerate a certain voltage of electricity flowing through their bodies.
Originally posted by Man of Christ

you saw how after a 1 second of dookus lightening AOTC anakin was out for a few minutes
Thats because he INTENDED to put anakin on his ass as he was trying to KILL dooku. Sidious was MERELY wanting to make luke suffer hence he didn't kill him with one blast of lightning.

Hell sidious was able to knock out yoda with one hit when he merely heckled yoda(when hes not even serious about killing him yet), luke, being FAR weaker than yoda was simply not knocked out or killed BECAUSE sidious was torturing him, not trying to fry him in the first place.

If you still can't understand this MOC then i highly suggest you quit acting like your even on the level of a newbie debater.
Originally posted by Man of Christ

but after siddious' killer lightening luke got up INSTANTLY merely sweating. See the above?
Originally posted by Man of Christ

and please, find better things to than to insult me. Its not an insult, its a question that you fail to answer because of your guilty conscious that you type like a 12 year old.

Originally posted by Man of Christ
"and now young skywalker, you will die"

thus he was trying to kill him

and the fact that luke got up unafected by that speaks to his endurance You seriously is the most stupid(i seriously mean it MOC, im not trying to insult you) individual i have ever met in my entire life, and now young skywalker, you will die.

Look at the words highlighted in bold please. Notice the word NOW? That means he was NOT trying to kill him earlier.

Count Dooku being physically stronger than Anakin? Sidious was trying to kill Luke aboard the Death Star? Random Nutjob Clone #234 is more powerful than Darth Vader ? What the hell has happened to the people of this forum...

All in two threads?

Damn, I haven't seen this place so stupid since Numan was here.

Originally posted by Gideon
Count Dooku being physically stronger than Anakin? Sidious was trying to kill Luke aboard the Death Star? Random Nutjob Clone #234 is more powerful than Darth Vader ? What the hell has happened to the people of this forum... I didn't make any of those claims.

The above should say "Count Dooku stronger than Obi-Wan" not "stronger than Anakin".

Originally posted by Faunus
All in two threads?

Unfortunately.



The dark times have returned.

Originally posted by Ivalice
.Look at the words highlighted in bold please. Notice the word NOW? That means he was NOT trying to kill him earlier.

To add onto this point, I think it is highly possible that even when the emperor intended to kill Luke he was holding back his full power and wanted Luke to die a slow and painful death. By this time Sidious has electrocuted many stormtroopers all at once, as well as the groups of prophets that resurrected darth maul to fight vader.

Not to mention we saw Mace Windu have trouble to gain the upper hand with on sidious's lightning with his saber. We see Yoda lose his lightsaber from blast of sidious's lightning,then we see the affects of the lightning on Yoda(who initially had difficulty repelling it before the two moved closer together) and sidious being hurled backwards and which would cost him thew duel. So here we have the two top jedi of the PT who both stronger than Luke had difficulty at some point with Sidious's lightning which was intended from the start to kill them. And I would say that OT lightning>PT lightning. So I really fail to see how it could be suggested that Sidious ever used his "unlimited power!" against Luke.

Absolutely correct. The Emperor has displayed a vast destructive ability with his Force lightning throughout the mythos. Consider Masters Yoda and Mace Windu. The former was the undisputed Grand Master of the entire Order and, according to the novelization, the most powerful light sider in history up until the advent of Luke Skywalker; the latter was the creator of the "deadliest" of all lightsaber forms that created a superconducting loop between himself and his dark side opponents. And both of them displayed intense difficulty in repelling the Emperor's Sith lightning. Yoda was able to summon the Force that, despite his size and age, he was able to overcome Darth Sidious and Count Dooku in their lightsaber locks, and found himself easily disarmed by the Sith Lord's single gout of lightning. Likewise, despite having leverage, greater mass, and the benefits of the superconducting loop on his side, Mace Windu was quite visibly struggling with the Emperor's lightning, even with the assistance of his lightsaber. This is the same Mace Windu who has displayed nearly peerless physical abilities when summoning the Force -- defeating Kar Vastor in melee combat and overcoming a contingent of super battle droids without his lightsaber -- and he found himself being forced back (indeed, the novelization's account details Windu's conclusion that the lightning was "too strong" for him). Meanwhile, we have Obi-Wan Kenobi (an inferior Force user and combatant than Windu or Yoda) deflecting Force lightning from Count Dooku, a very powerful Sith in his own right, with the assistance of his lightsaber without any visible effort.

When one takes into account the original trilogy, Palpatine was able to emit enough power to utterly annihilate fifty armed stormtroopers in the span of a few seconds, as well as reduce the forms of three powerful Sith acolytes to ashes with Sith lightning from one hand. If one takes into account his feats during Dark Empire, he was able to mortally wound two experienced Jedi Knights with single bursts and disable Leia Organa Solo, despite the incredible defense afforded to her by her unique connection to the Force. And this is when he was "barely able to walk in his festering body" (the New Essential Chronology) and where every usage of the Force brought him closer to death (Empire's End). Hardly his strongest hour.

While Luke Skywalker was a gifted Force user even as far as Return of the Jedi due to his natural affinity and supremely potent strength in the Force, it is illogical to assume that Palpatine was trying to kill him at all aboard the second Death Star.

Exactly.

They both were wrong.



No. Becausw we have statements for Palpatine's position.
When comparing Joruus and Vader, we should go by feats. And by feats, C'baoth is stronger.



A. Because Joruus was completely insane and thus worthless as an apprentice.
B. Because it's specifically noted in the books that Joruus got stronger under Thrawn. When on Wayland he had no way to flex his muscle and increase his power but with Thrawn and using his battle meditation his power vastly increased.



The two most powerful beings in the Galaxy at that time you mean.
Many beings stronger than them, and I'm talking especially about Vader here, have emerged since then and C'baoth is one of those.

Originally posted by Ivalice
I am not "bashing" you. I am simply telling you to shut up because not only have i destroyed your posts but OTHER people are saying i am right.

That's not how this works at all.

I've told you countless times this week not to bash, which is what you're doing continually to every debator you don't like. I'm getting tired of it. An official warning to you, Ivalice. Next time it will be another temporary ban.

And Man of Christ? You're still instigating him. Knock it off or you'll be going down the same path.

Originally posted by Captain REX
That's not how this works at all.

I've told you countless times this week not to bash, which is what you're doing continually to every debator you don't like. I'm getting tired of it. An official warning to you, Ivalice. Next time it will be another temporary ban.

And Man of Christ? You're still instigating him. Knock it off or you'll be going down the same path.

i dont see how i am instigating him, i reserve the right to disagree?

Originally posted by Man of Christ
i reserve the right to disagree?

You have no rights. You're merely a cog in the grand machine of life. I am all powerful!

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight



The two most powerful beings in the Galaxy at that time you mean.
Many beings stronger than them, and I'm talking especially about Vader here, have emerged since then and C'baoth is one of those. If you read shadows of the empire(if it came from that source), it was stated that vader and palpatine are the most powerful individuals in the entire galaxy(when joruus was alive)

That might be becuase they actually owned it.