Cgi and nick Gilliard not in The Original Trilogy

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Man of Christ
this is to bring attention to the fact that due to Gl's special effects that we cannot assume that all the ligtsaber duelists from eps 4 5 and 6, are worse than the ones from ep 1 2 and 3 because the pt had the advantage of cgi and coreographers

exanda kane
Who's assuming anything? I didn't even think it was a stated 'majority opinion' that the OT fights were worse. Sure, in Star Wars it's all pretty poor, but the battles in Empire and Jedi are great.

Sesse
Watto and Jarjar not in The Original Trilogy

this is to bring attention to the fact that due to Jarjars antics that we cannot assume that all the sidekicks from eps 4 5 and 6, are better than the ones from ep 1 2 and 3 because the pt had the advantage of JarJar and Watto

Tangible God
Originally posted by Man of Christ
this is to bring attention to the fact that due to Gl's special effects that we cannot assume that all the ligtsaber duelists from eps 4 5 and 6, are worse than the ones from ep 1 2 and 3 because the pt had the advantage of cgi and coreographers Vader's wearing a mobile iron lung, Obi-Wan is 19 years out of shape, Luke is a Padawan with several weeks of training, Yoda is in the same boat as Obi-Wan except he's also dieing, and Palpatine doesn't even stand up too often.

So there's your in-universe explanation as to why the OT fights seem slower and less fancy than the PT.

Out of universe it was due to lack of camera and digital technology.

queeq
Originally posted by Tangible God
So there's your in-universe explanation as to why the OT fights seem slower and less fancy than the PT.


That lame excuse only came with the PT though. We thought it was cool at the time.

exanda kane
Bloody is still cool. Bespin is the best SW duel by far, but it has been out stripped by films such as Rob Roy in my opinion.

queeq
Time does that to great classics.

sorokseem
the PT fighting is definitely better than the ori 1 of course.not sure about ROTJ though,can't rmb.^^

sweersa
Ever the lightsabers were better in the PT. With digital tools.

Jovan
well, it would be quite pathetic if it was the other way around

Darth Subjekt
Who gives a shit? Its 20 years of hindsight, modern choreography, and technological growth. Couple that with a man who has billions to throw around, and you the superficially shallow fights of the PT, save for Anakin vs OB1.

The only thing not fair to compare, is the abilities of the actual characters. If they could make Alec's face of a 25 year old sword fighter's head, then that fight could have been a lot better too.

sweersa
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Who gives a shit? Its 20 years of hindsight, modern choreography, and technological growth. Couple that with a man who has billions to throw around, and you the superficially shallow fights of the PT, save for Anakin vs OB1.

The only thing not fair to compare, is the abilities of the actual characters. If they could make Alec's face of a 25 year old sword fighter's head, then that fight could have been a lot better too.

What do you mean by the shallow fights of the PT?

Blax_Hydralisk
If you like the PT or think it's superior in any way outside of pure technological advancements to the OT, you're stupid.

Rule #1 of the Star Wars forums.

Sesse
Amen.

sweersa
Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
If you like the PT or think it's superior in any way outside of pure technological advancements to the OT, you're stupid.

Rule #1 of the Star Wars forums.

Yeah becuase we all love the slow lightsaber fights and Mark's acting of the original trilogy.

If you don't like the Prequels you can shut up and not buy them on DVD.

Don't even get me started on how they spanked the Classic trilogy at the box office. Then you would say "Wahh everyone saw Episode I becuase they thought it would be so much better.." Yeah that's why II and III also did way well and we all saw it 3+ times at the theatre.

If you can't already tell I enjoy all 6 Star Wars films, as a true fan I follow Lucas' vision as being legit. Sure I may not agree on some things in some of the movies like everyone else but that is too bad.

It isn't like 4,5, and 6 are all perfect films. We all have our opinions but it all comes down to what the man in charge wants. That's what we get. Live with it.

Darth Subjekt
Originally posted by sweersa
Yeah becuase we all love the slow lightsaber fights and Mark's acting of the original trilogy. Right, because Hayden, Natalie and even the mighty SLJ did perfect the entire time. "A sith LORD?" Laughable at best. Need I remind you, "Noooooooooo."

Originally posted by sweersa
If you don't like the Prequels you can shut up and not buy them on DVD.I could say the same for you and the OT.

Originally posted by sweersa
Don't even get me started on how they spanked the Classic trilogy at the box office. Then you would say "Wahh everyone saw Episode I becuase they thought it would be so much better.." Yeah that's why II and III also did way well and we all saw it 3+ times at the theatre.Whoa, whoa, whoa... lets get some facts straight here. Of course it looks like they (The OT) got spanked, tickets were like $2 then. Look up inflation adjusted box office sales. THAT order is ANH, ESB, RoTJ, TPM, RoTS, and then way down at number 82 is AoTC. Matter of fact http://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/adjusted.htm look for your self.

So it would seem as though the OT SPANKED and WTFPWNED the PT at the box office.

Originally posted by sweersa
If you can't already tell I enjoy all 6 Star Wars films, as a true fan I follow Lucas' vision as being legit. Sure I may not agree on some things in some of the movies like everyone else but that is too bad.Then extend the same courtesy to those of us who prefer the OT.

Originally posted by sweersa
It isn't like 4,5, and 6 are all perfect films. We all have our opinions but it all comes down to what the man in charge wants. That's what we get. Live with it. Not perfect, but close.

sweersa
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Right, because Hayden, Natalie and even the mighty SLJ did perfect the entire time. "A sith LORD?" Laughable at best. Need I remind you, "Noooooooooo."

I could say the same for you and the OT.

Whoa, whoa, whoa... lets get some facts straight here. Of course it looks like they (The OT) got spanked, tickets were like $2 then. Look up inflation adjusted box office sales. THAT order is ANH, ESB, RoTJ, TPM, RoTS, and then way down at number 82 is AoTC. Matter of fact http://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/adjusted.htm look for your self.

So it would seem as though the OT SPANKED and WTFPWNED the PT at the box office.

Then extend the same courtesy to those of us who prefer the OT.

Not perfect, but close.

I never said the acting was great in the Prequels, I think other than Jake Llyod and Hayden at times, the acting wasn't bad. I think Samuel L. Mother****ing Jackson is one of the best actors in those films. Don't let bad actors ruin a movie, that's why I enjoy all 6 Star Wars films, its the plot, action, and the feeling. I didn't see Carrie and Mark do much after Star Wars anyways.

Like I said, I enjoy all 6 Star Wars films, I own all in a few types of media. DVD, VHS, and even have an HDTV rip of ROTS in 720p HD

I suppose I should have thought about inflation before I went on about the OT being pwned. As for the box office values I would say they are still pretty close even after adjusting for inflation. I tend to look at international sales rather than domestic. Keep in mind also that the original film's box office figures may have been added to the 1997 special edition releases also. The Prequels have never been re-released...yet. Expect that before 7,8 and 9. Hahaha.

Darth Subjekt
it has the release years next to the title, and ANH is over 1 billion dollars and 2nd only to Gone With the Wind. Even Titanic is #6.

But tell you what, if you can gather data supporting global sales and whether or not the re-releases were included, then i will gladly concede my point. However, keep in mind the difference in marketing power, money and multiple more avenues that the PT had AFTER the OT made GL a billionaire. Furthermore, the PT was also geared more towards kids to bring in the younger audience.

Here's some more interesting info:

STAR WARS

Domestic Total Gross: $307,263,857
Domestic Lifetime Gross: $460,998,007
Distributor: Fox Release Date: May 25, 1977
Genre: Sci-Fi Fantasy Running Time: 2 hrs. 1 min.
MPAA Rating: PG Production Budget: $11 million

TOTAL LIFETIME GROSSES
Domestic: $460,998,007 59.5%
+ Foreign: $314,400,000 40.5%
= Worldwide: $775,398,007

DOMESTIC SUMMARY
Release Dates: May 25, 1977 (limited)
July 15, 1977 (wide)

Opening Weekend:
(limited, 43 theaters) $1,554,475
($36,150 avg)

Opening Weekend: $6,806,951
(wide, 757 theaters, $8,992 average)
% of Total Gross: 2.2%

Widest Release: 1,750 theaters

NOTE: 43 theaters!!

sweersa
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
it has the release years next to the title, and ANH is over 1 billion dollars and 2nd only to Gone With the Wind. Even Titanic is #6.

But tell you what, if you can gather data supporting global sales and whether or not the re-releases were included, then i will gladly concede my point. However, keep in mind the difference in marketing power, money and multiple more avenues that the PT had AFTER the OT made GL a billionaire. Furthermore, the PT was also geared more towards kids to bring in the younger audience.

Here's some more interesting info:

STAR WARS

Domestic Total Gross: $307,263,857
Domestic Lifetime Gross: $460,998,007
Distributor: Fox Release Date: May 25, 1977
Genre: Sci-Fi Fantasy Running Time: 2 hrs. 1 min.
MPAA Rating: PG Production Budget: $11 million

TOTAL LIFETIME GROSSES
Domestic: $460,998,007 59.5%
+ Foreign: $314,400,000 40.5%
= Worldwide: $775,398,007

DOMESTIC SUMMARY
Release Dates: May 25, 1977 (limited)
July 15, 1977 (wide)

Opening Weekend:
(limited, 43 theaters) $1,554,475
($36,150 avg)

Opening Weekend: $6,806,951
(wide, 757 theaters, $8,992 average)
% of Total Gross: 2.2%

Widest Release: 1,750 theaters

NOTE: 43 theaters!!

That's interesting, but I think so many different things have to be considered for the adjusted for inflation figures, like then people really didn't have anything like Star Wars at the time. I wonder if there is a way to find out the number of tickets sold for a movie, that would seem like a better way to determine how popular it was at the release time.

Darth Subjekt
That's what inflation does... it takes all the tickets and multiplies them by the same dollar amount, therefore basing it off of ticket sales.

sweersa
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
That's what inflation does... it takes all the tickets and multiplies them by the same dollar amount, therefore basing it off of ticket sales.

Ohh, I understand I guess. Still, I don't see a need to bash the Prequels, all of the Star Wars films have problems more or less...but I believe they are all almost equally entertaining and awesome.

Darth Subjekt
And to each their own. I'm a product of the OT, and while I prefer the OT to the PT, I can appreciate some of the things in the PT. However, I would have started Ep 1 where Ep 2 was. That way, we could see more of what Anakin could really do, instead of seeing a grown woman flirt with a 9 year old. And although i used to despise TPM< i know enjoy it more than AOTC, as I'm looking at Qui Gon like I now look at OB1 in ANH... masterful and wise.

But Lucas fell into the trap that almost all movie and music makers do these days; they feel that all they have to do is throw money into a project, make it look good with crazy SFX and expect that to be a crutch for shitty writing. I dont care who you are, you can not watch all 6 movies and honestly say that the PT has the same "feel" to it as the OT. Its more hokey and riddled with unnecessary one-liners and childish gags. Even C3PO wasn't as gay in the OT as he was in the PT, "This is such a drag. Oh I'm quite beside myself." COME ON!!! That's horrible. And don't even get me started on Binks.

Sure the OT has its failings too, but most of those occurred after Lucas decided to go back and throw money, I mean "fix" the trilogy. Cutting scenes, changing voices, adding new irrelevant sequences... terrible.

The PT (or anything that follows) will just simply not have the same effect of movie making, or society as a whole, as Star Wars did when it first came out in the 70's.

sweersa
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
And to each their own. I'm a product of the OT, and while I prefer the OT to the PT, I can appreciate some of the things in the PT. However, I would have started Ep 1 where Ep 2 was. That way, we could see more of what Anakin could really do, instead of seeing a grown woman flirt with a 9 year old. And although i used to despise TPM< i know enjoy it more than AOTC, as I'm looking at Qui Gon like I now look at OB1 in ANH... masterful and wise.

But Lucas fell into the trap that almost all movie and music makers do these days; they feel that all they have to do is throw money into a project, make it look good with crazy SFX and expect that to be a crutch for shitty writing. I dont care who you are, you can not watch all 6 movies and honestly say that the PT has the same "feel" to it as the OT. Its more hokey and riddled with unnecessary one-liners and childish gags. Even C3PO wasn't as gay in the OT as he was in the PT, "This is such a drag. Oh I'm quite beside myself." COME ON!!! That's horrible. And don't even get me started on Binks.

Sure the OT has its failings too, but most of those occurred after Lucas decided to go back and throw money, I mean "fix" the trilogy. Cutting scenes, changing voices, adding new irrelevant sequences... terrible.

The PT (or anything that follows) will just simply not have the same effect of movie making, or society as a whole, as Star Wars did when it first came out in the 70's.

I agree, to each his own. I think you are right about C3PO being more gay in the prequels becuase he was naked in Episode I. Hahaha.

If I could change anything in the Prequels, I would have made Anakin the same age as Padme. (would have been more realistic and less awkward) I would have toned down Jar-Jar, and the biggest thing I would have done was give Qui-Gon an Alec like Obi-wan role in episode II and III. Wouldn't it have REALLY made the Prequels amazing to have Qui-Gon as a force ghost? I thought Qui-Gon's character was amazing.

I just watch all of the films as they are really, while some things disappoint me I just try to forget it and move on. Overall if the movie is cool and moves me I fall in love with it.

sorokseem
i kinda like the PT coz the plot is more complex and it add a general "coolness"to the movies(from Republic clone troopers to imperial stormtroopers),unlike the OT which is more predictable.Oh,c'mon,the technological advancement for god's sake is really something.Their fashion sense kinda improve anyway.clone trooper armor>storm trooper armor.PT lightsaber duels>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>OT lightsaber duels.the only part i din fancy in the PT is probably the AOTC love story part and that was it.In the OT,things seem to be very old anyway.

Captain REX
Personally, though I am a fan of all six films, I simply prefer the OT more. Empire Strikes Back is my favorite film of the six, followed by ANH and ROTS (not ROTJ).

Darth Subjekt
Originally posted by sorokseem
PT lightsaber duels>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>OT lightsaber duels. This is a bit absurd. And the only reason that type of assertion can even be made is because of technological advancements in the way CGI, which is also the downfall of the PT. When you start relying on SPX, your story and writing severely suffer. In the OT you had an old arthritic man swinging a very breakable stick around with a clumsy British body builder in an uncomfortable suit that he couldn't really see out of. That same awkward body builder in the uncomfortable, tunnel-vision suit was in every duel in the OT and suffered the same throughout. Alec Guiness didn't have the luxury of have a CGI image of his face being put on a young stuntman's body in order to make his fights faster. Nor did he have CGI available to allow him to bounce all around the place like Ian did.

But alas, only one of the PT duels had half as much of an emotional connection that the OT duels did, and that was, as I've said, the Anakin/OB1 duel, which was in the best movie of the PT, even though it seemed extremely rushed.

So really, OT duels>>>>>PT duels if for nothing else, because of the fact that the actors had to do it themselves without millions of dollars backing them up. And if there was no OT, then there would undoubtedly be no PT. Show respect. I mean, right? I think it deserves it.

sweersa
I agree the Original Trilogy duals should have been stepped up a bit...but both the PT and OT have pros and cons with the duals. Episode 4 had a slower battle for obvious reasons, Alec was pretty old, and the rods they used were heavy. The rods or sticks in ESB and ROTJ were not however, they were completely different from ANH. I am guessing the duals in the last two originals were not as heated as they should have been becuase they crew didn't have Nick with them.

A huge downfall in the PT duals is the lack of dialogue during the duals, as Darth Subject said...they are far too rushed, and I agree. I think a few breaks should have occurred in the awesome PT duals to get in some dialogue, and this occurred in the movies sometimes but it didn't seem to work as well as it did in the OT.

I would have to say moves and action wise, the PT duals are far superior, but that doesn't take away anything from the OT. Luke is a noob in most of the movies, and Vader may be a little out of practice and aging.

Darth Subjekt
Here's the thing, the OT was a STORY, whereas the PT was visual fiesta to compensate for the lack of an actual story. If you recall, in the OT, Lucas didn't want music during the duels because he said the lightsabers made their own "music" with the obvious exception of the final duel on the Death Star. If you look at the PT, if I'm not mistaken, every duel has a gay Duel of the Fates playing or some other music. Why break from such a fail-safe strategy? They tried too hard to make the PT "epic" in size and stature, and they failed. Whenever you see the PT referenced in a show ot movie, the PT is clowned (rightfully so, IMO) for being a joke. Even in Robot Chicken Vader says something like, "And the force... why that's just microscopic organisms living in your blood." to which Luke replied, "Look, if you're not gonna take this seriously, I'm out." and walked away, lol. Pretty funny, and true. That's the gayest thing he could have done to SW.

But the saber duels being "flashy" doesn't make them "better." A lot of the flashiness is unnecessary, and its noticeable. But more of the younger fans like the PT cause it came out in their time and was geared towards them. Which is fine. Just understand the reasons for the differences and don't just say that the PT pwns the OT cause its newer and flashier.

sweersa
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Here's the thing, the OT was a STORY, whereas the PT was visual fiesta to compensate for the lack of an actual story. If you recall, in the OT, Lucas didn't want music during the duels because he said the lightsabers made their own "music" with the obvious exception of the final duel on the Death Star. If you look at the PT, if I'm not mistaken, every duel has a gay Duel of the Fates playing or some other music. Why break from such a fail-safe strategy? They tried too hard to make the PT "epic" in size and stature, and they failed. Whenever you see the PT referenced in a show ot movie, the PT is clowned (rightfully so, IMO) for being a joke. Even in Robot Chicken Vader says something like, "And the force... why that's just microscopic organisms living in your blood." to which Luke replied, "Look, if you're not gonna take this seriously, I'm out." and walked away, lol. Pretty funny, and true. That's the gayest thing he could have done to SW.

But the saber duels being "flashy" doesn't make them "better." A lot of the flashiness is unnecessary, and its noticeable. But more of the younger fans like the PT cause it came out in their time and was geared towards them. Which is fine. Just understand the reasons for the differences and don't just say that the PT pwns the OT cause its newer and flashier.

Dude, the Maul VS Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon dual with that music was just awesome, it isn't like Maul had anything to say anyways. You could still hear the lightsabers, and in the PT it wasn't the same five lightsaber sounds.

Same with Obi-Wan Vs Darth Vader...amazing, I don't remember in the threatre anybody complaining about any of the movies. I don't recall hearing much music in the lightsaber duals with Dooku at the end of ATOC, in my opinion, that is the only dual in the PT I wasn't fully satisfied with, but yoda was pretty sweet.

The orginal films are get knocked around in some funny shows like Blue Harvest of Family Guy, they are all Star Wars movies...same universe...same creator.

Darth Subjekt
But they're not being disrespected. The only reason they're being "knocked around" is because both Seth McFarland and Seth Green are uber SW fans. That's why in the SW Robot Chicken, when they bring in an aspect of the PT, they trash it.

You're missing my point about the music during the duels. Lightsabers give off their own music, and the duels in the OT didn't need music to help peak interest or make it "deeper." Its a trick that the PT needs cause the emotion was lacking. Plain and simple.

sweersa
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
But they're not being disrespected. The only reason they're being "knocked around" is because both Seth McFarland and Seth Green are uber SW fans. That's why in the SW Robot Chicken, when they bring in an aspect of the PT, they trash it.

You're missing my point about the music during the duels. Lightsabers give off their own music, and the duels in the OT didn't need music to help peak interest or make it "deeper." Its a trick that the PT needs cause the emotion was lacking. Plain and simple.

I don't know, the lightsaber battles don't seem like they needed to be emotional, it wasn't father vs son or anything like that.

Darth Subjekt
Any fight is emotional. That's why we fight, because of emotion. Especially with swords as opposed to just shooting someone. You're still missing the point, or just dismissing it intentionally. But that's fine. I just think that most people would consider the PT a let down to the saga, especially when compared to the OT. But you prefer the PT, and I prefer the OT. I'm just tired of trying to defend the OT. I personally don't think it needs to be defended.

Sesse
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Any fight is emotional.

R2D2 versus the BuZz droid?

sweersa
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Any fight is emotional. That's why we fight, because of emotion. Especially with swords as opposed to just shooting someone. You're still missing the point, or just dismissing it intentionally. But that's fine. I just think that most people would consider the PT a let down to the saga, especially when compared to the OT. But you prefer the PT, and I prefer the OT. I'm just tired of trying to defend the OT. I personally don't think it needs to be defended.

I am not attacking the OT, just pointing out some pros and cons to both trilogies. They are different, while some of the things you prefer that occurred in the OT be applied to the PT.

The dual in TPM really didn't get very emotional until Qui-gon was wasted. For the Jedi a lightsaber is a better weapon than any blaster unless they are in rare situations or without a lightsaber. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan's mission was to protect the queen and if possible gain information on the Sith Lord. They ran into Maul and obviously had to keep him from the Queen so they battled him as he was a huge threat. Maul wanted the Jedi dead obviously. I don't see much emotion in that except anger.

Darth Subjekt
Originally posted by Sesse
R2D2 versus the BuZz droid?
I was obviously referring to the lightsaber duels. However, now that you mention it, that was one of the worst parts of that movie.

Originally posted by sweersa
I am not attacking the OT, just pointing out some pros and cons to both trilogies. They are different, while some of the things you prefer that occurred in the OT be applied to the PT.

The dual in TPM really didn't get very emotional until Qui-gon was wasted. For the Jedi a lightsaber is a better weapon than any blaster unless they are in rare situations or without a lightsaber. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan's mission was to protect the queen and if possible gain information on the Sith Lord. They ran into Maul and obviously had to keep him from the Queen so they battled him as he was a huge threat. Maul wanted the Jedi dead obviously. I don't see much emotion in that except anger.

*sigh* I wasn't referring only to you, but in general to the younger fans that think the OT sucked just because it's not filled with pointless CGI.

You're looking at the duEl in TPM completely wrong. That was the first time the Sith have shown up in what, 1000 years? That's extremely pivotal. They could have put more emphasis on it and one way of doing that, is by not throwing DotF in our faces, distracting us from the duEl with music rather than focusing more on all the acrobatics that they felt necessary. Do you see where I'm coming from?

Just out of pure curiosity, how old are you?

sweersa
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
I was obviously referring to the lightsaber duels. However, now that you mention it, that was one of the worst parts of that movie.



*sigh* I wasn't referring only to you, but in general to the younger fans that think the OT sucked just because it's not filled with pointless CGI.

You're looking at the duEl in TPM completely wrong. That was the first time the Sith have shown up in what, 1000 years? That's extremely pivotal. They could have put more emphasis on it and one way of doing that, is by not throwing DotF in our faces, distracting us from the duEl with music rather than focusing more on all the acrobatics that they felt necessary. Do you see where I'm coming from?

Just out of pure curiosity, how old are you?

John Williams' brilliant score only adds to that amazing dual. If you think dialogue would be interesting between Maul and the Jedi, please tell me why would Darth Maul even bother to talk when he just wants to kill them? Maul isn't a man to use words anyways as he said little in the movie. He is not a talker. The plot didn't need any dialogue. Think about that dual without that score...it would only be plain. Sound is half the picture right? Music is one of the huge aspects Star Wars is about. You can still hear the lightsaber sounds. More is more. I don't think anyone really sees that music as distracting...

You are obviously an old fashioned fan. I am 17 (I guess becuase I am young everything I say doesn't matter right?) and love all six films, sure I have a few opinions and a few thing could have been better but I don't care. I think just about every aspect of every dual in all six films works out really well. Star Wars are also kid's films, just becuase you are older doesn't mean everything has to be taken seriously...the few cute scenes in the PT are for either children's amusement or for a brief moment of comic relief. The OT also has that. (Ewoks anyone?)

You really should have attended a premier for one of the PT movies. (I am assuming you havn't.) It is full of so much energy with a lot of fan boys (a few girls also) dressed up as characters. Families, fathers with their kids...everyone is pumped before the film and even more so afterwards.

I will never forget the ROTS premiere. The Theatre was packed and the movie at many times brought out cheers, applause (especially at the end) laughter and maybe even some tears.) That is a night (or early morning) I will never forget.

I realize you likely grew up with the OT, and so that is always what Star Wars was, I am sure you like many other fans had an idea of what the PT was going to be like, you and others may have been upset, but there is no doubt in my mind that everybody had a great time at the ROTS premier and even at the other PT shows I went to.

If you feel George Lucas raped your childhood, move on, becuase a lot of people love all 6 Star Wars films as I do. It would be impossible for Mr. Lucas to meet everyone's expectations and ideas of the PT after the success of the OT and I sure wouldn't want him to try, what he does it up to him and I believe he has delivered his movies in his vision and I am happy with it.

Darth Subjekt
Originally posted by sweersa
John Williams' brilliant score only adds to that amazing dual. If you think dialogue would be interesting between Maul and the Jedi, please tell me why would Darth Maul even bother to talk when he just wants to kill them? Maul isn't a man to use words anyways as he said little in the movie. He is not a talker. The plot didn't need any dialogue. Think about that dual without that score...it would only be plain. Sound is half the picture right? Music is one of the huge aspects Star Wars is about. You can still hear the lightsaber sounds. More is more. I don't think anyone really sees that music as distracting... Well considering that I never even hinted about Maul talking, your point is rather moot. I didn't say anything about dialogue, but the emphasis should have been more focused on the severity of an emerging Sith rather than what JW can concoct. Whom, by the way, I think is a musical genius and really appreciate all he's done for the saga. So the OT duels were "boring" because there was no music? I think the LEGIONS of fans and box office totals would disagree with you.

Originally posted by sweersa
You are obviously an old fashioned fan. I am 17 (I guess becuase I am young everything I say doesn't matter right?) I said out of pure curiosity and never insinuated as much that your "young" opinion didn't matter. So don't put words in my mouth, please. And also, I'm only 28; not that old fashioned. Cut me some slack, lol.

Originally posted by sweersa
and love all six films, sure I have a few opinions and a few thing could have been better but I don't care. I think just about every aspect of every dual in all six films works out really well. Star Wars are also kid's films, just becuase you are older doesn't mean everything has to be taken seriously...the few cute scenes in the PT are for either children's amusement or for a brief moment of comic relief. The OT also has that. (Ewoks anyone?) A few? Save for a ROTS, the PT was riddled with "cute moments." And I don't think there is any fan who would prefer Jar Jar over the Ewoks. At least they served a notable purpose. Binks handed the galaxy over to Palpatine on a silver platter. Ewoks looked cute, but they tore shit up.

Originally posted by sweersa
You really should have attended a premier for one of the PT movies. (I am assuming you havn't.) It is full of so much energy with a lot of fan boys (a few girls also) dressed up as characters. Families, fathers with their kids...everyone is pumped before the film and even more so afterwards. Premier as in opening night, or as in the Hollywood type premier where the stars come out to watch? If you mean opening night, i was at every single one. I saw each movie at least 3 times in the theater (the PT that is) and like the movies. I just don't think they compare to the Orignals. I took my lightsabers there and was having all kinds of fun. But once the initial shock of having a SW film in the theater after 20 years wore off, i saw the PT more for what it is, and more importantly, for what it isn't

Originally posted by sweersa
I will never forget the ROTS premiere. The Theatre was packed and the movie at many times brought out cheers, applause (especially at the end) laughter and maybe even some tears.) That is a night (or early morning) I will never forget. And i remember at my midnight showing, all the "older" people basically booing R2 pwning two SBD's and booing at the last words of Vader. I mean come on, how late was that? Honestly? Other than that, i loved it for the most part. Its my 3rd of the saga.

Originally posted by sweersa
I realize you likely grew up with the OT, and so that is always what Star Wars was, I am sure you like many other fans had an idea of what the PT was going to be like, you and others may have been upset, but there is no doubt in my mind that everybody had a great time at the ROTS premier and even at the other PT shows I went to. Of course we (and i'm LOOSELY speaking for OT fans as a whole... more so just myself) liked the PT for being SW, but as a kid i imagined the Clone Wars and all the lightsabers glowing and humming and all that, and to be honest, my adolescent vision dwarfed what Lucas brought to the table. Its more kiddie than what it should have been and more kiddie than the OT, which had more character driven plots and sub plots and more... "substance."

Originally posted by sweersa
If you feel George Lucas raped your childhood, move on, becuase a lot of people love all 6 Star Wars films as I do. It would be impossible for Mr. Lucas to meet everyone's expectations and ideas of the PT after the success of the OT and I sure wouldn't want him to try, what he does it up to him and I believe he has delivered his movies in his vision and I am happy with it. Ok then, if i'm to "move on" then we should just close this thread and you should keep your opinions of the OT to yourself, cause you're coming off hypocritical. For the umpteenth time, I like all the films and PREFER THE OT. IT'S BETTER MADE AND NOT AS HOKEY AND NOT OVERCOMPENSATED WITH HOARDS OF CGI SHOTS THAT I FIND LAME.

Moving on....

Master Crimzon
Well... I personally must say that it's rather difficult to compare both trilogies- that being said, however, both have their pros and cons, and there are certain, very similar parts about them. For example:

Each trilogy has one rather weak episode filled with kiddy humor. RotJ and TPM, in this case.

Each trilogy has more of a fun, lightweight episode. ANH/AotC seems like the correct comparison.

Each trilogy has a dark, complex episode generally considered to be the best of it. ESB/RotS, obviously.

However, they were done in very different manners, which accounts to why the the OT is so much more popular than the PT. The OT is done with very simple, black-and white morality focusing on a relatively straightforward story. That's not 'bad', it was certainly Lucas' intention, but it also makes the film feel easier to enjoy and to connect to. However, the PT, despite often being bashed for being too 'kid friendly', and filled with 'cute moments', has an ultimately darker, more complex storyline that climaxes in RotS; the morality is no longer black-and-white, the villains often more misguided idealists than just 'evil' people... and, of course, politics. It depends what you prefer, really, but both trilogies have their ups and downs.

I gotta say, though, RotS is my favorite Star Wars movie; maybe it's because I'm just a teenager and therefore do not have the OT nostalgia factor. However, ESB and ANH are both next in my list. AotC is very good, too... I dunno, It's pretty close to ANH, IMO. Oh, and then there's TPM and RotJ. And, believe it or not, I'd rather have Jar-Jar then Ewoks.

As for the pure saber duels? I'd guess the PT has superior ones. I mean, the duel between Yoda and Dooku, say, is unbelievable; the later duels, such as Obi vs. Ani and Sidious vs. Yoda are high-staked, with the former being the most emotional Star Wars duel, filled with badass music. I don't remeber ever watching quite a thrilling sword duel in my entire life.

sweersa
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Well considering that I never even hinted about Maul talking, your point is rather moot. I didn't say anything about dialogue, but the emphasis should have been more focused on the severity of an emerging Sith rather than what JW can concoct. Whom, by the way, I think is a musical genius and really appreciate all he's done for the saga. So the OT duels were "boring" because there was no music? I think the LEGIONS of fans and box office totals would disagree with you.

I said out of pure curiosity and never insinuated as much that your "young" opinion didn't matter. So don't put words in my mouth, please. And also, I'm only 28; not that old fashioned. Cut me some slack, lol.

A few? Save for a ROTS, the PT was riddled with "cute moments." And I don't think there is any fan who would prefer Jar Jar over the Ewoks. At least they served a notable purpose. Binks handed the galaxy over to Palpatine on a silver platter. Ewoks looked cute, but they tore shit up.

Premier as in opening night, or as in the Hollywood type premier where the stars come out to watch? If you mean opening night, i was at every single one. I saw each movie at least 3 times in the theater (the PT that is) and like the movies. I just don't think they compare to the Orignals. I took my lightsabers there and was having all kinds of fun. But once the initial shock of having a SW film in the theater after 20 years wore off, i saw the PT more for what it is, and more importantly, for what it isn't

And i remember at my midnight showing, all the "older" people basically booing R2 pwning two SBD's and booing at the last words of Vader. I mean come on, how late was that? Honestly? Other than that, i loved it for the most part. Its my 3rd of the saga.

Of course we (and i'm LOOSELY speaking for OT fans as a whole... more so just myself) liked the PT for being SW, but as a kid i imagined the Clone Wars and all the lightsabers glowing and humming and all that, and to be honest, my adolescent vision dwarfed what Lucas brought to the table. Its more kiddie than what it should have been and more kiddie than the OT, which had more character driven plots and sub plots and more... "substance."

Ok then, if i'm to "move on" then we should just close this thread and you should keep your opinions of the OT to yourself, cause you're coming off hypocritical. For the umpteenth time, I like all the films and PREFER THE OT. IT'S BETTER MADE AND NOT AS HOKEY AND NOT OVERCOMPENSATED WITH HOARDS OF CGI SHOTS THAT I FIND LAME.

Moving on....

Okay...to each his own I guess.

I am not trying to make the OT look bad in anyway, as I have stated before, I enjoy all 6 films about equally, I don't feel any Trilogy is better than the other. That's why I have to defend the Prequel by giving examples of what some consider "imperfections" in the OT.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Well... I personally must say that it's rather difficult to compare both trilogies- that being said, however, both have their pros and cons, and there are certain, very similar parts about them. For example:

Each trilogy has one rather weak episode filled with kiddy humor. RotJ and TPM, in this case.

Each trilogy has more of a fun, lightweight episode. ANH/AotC seems like the correct comparison.

Each trilogy has a dark, complex episode generally considered to be the best of it. ESB/RotS, obviously.

However, they were done in very different manners, which accounts to why the the OT is so much more popular than the PT. The OT is done with very simple, black-and white morality focusing on a relatively straightforward story. That's not 'bad', it was certainly Lucas' intention, but it also makes the film feel easier to enjoy and to connect to. However, the PT, despite often being bashed for being too 'kid friendly', and filled with 'cute moments', has an ultimately darker, more complex storyline that climaxes in RotS; the morality is no longer black-and-white, the villains often more misguided idealists than just 'evil' people... and, of course, politics. It depends what you prefer, really, but both trilogies have their ups and downs.

I gotta say, though, RotS is my favorite Star Wars movie; maybe it's because I'm just a teenager and therefore do not have the OT nostalgia factor. However, ESB and ANH are both next in my list. AotC is very good, too... I dunno, It's pretty close to ANH, IMO. Oh, and then there's TPM and RotJ. And, believe it or not, I'd rather have Jar-Jar then Ewoks.

As for the pure saber duels? I'd guess the PT has superior ones. I mean, the duel between Yoda and Dooku, say, is unbelievable; the later duels, such as Obi vs. Ani and Sidious vs. Yoda are high-staked, with the former being the most emotional Star Wars duel, filled with badass music. I don't remeber ever watching quite a thrilling sword duel in my entire life.

Well said, I am glad someone shares my views on Star Wars.

Darth Subjekt
Originally posted by sweersa
Okay...to each his own I guess. That's what I've said.

Originally posted by sweersa
I am not trying to make the OT look bad in anyway, as I have stated before, I enjoy all 6 films about equally, I don't feel any Trilogy is better than the other. That's why I have to defend the Prequel by giving examples of what some consider "imperfections" in the OT. Ok, but to defend one, you don't have to bash the other. Once someone starts in on the OT, of course I'm gonna start in on the PT. But just because CGI was added to the PT duels, that doesn't make them "better," it makes them different. Flashy, nonsensical moves doesn't equate to a better fight sequence.



Originally posted by sweersa
Well said, I am glad someone shares my views on Star Wars. So whoa, wait a minute... you two think that the PT is more complex and deeper? And has a better stroyline? Oh my blue harvest heaven. That's just a little more in depth than i want to go right now, but that's crazy. Adding mild politics to a movie doesn't make it more complex or deep. They were mentioning that in ANH. And it wasn't about the politics necessarily, it was about Palps making moves throughout the system that lead to him ruling the galaxy.

OT was iconic. So much so that the people who made Wanted stole the plot twist of ESB. Possibly the biggest and unforeseen plot twist in cinematic history. The PT killed the force by trying to put a scientific spin on it. I don't recall OB1 or Yoda mentioning midichlorians to Luke in either of their explanations of the force. The force was meant to be mystic and not fully understood. They just needed a way to show that Anakin was more powerful than Yoda. But hey... to each their own, right?

Blax_Hydralisk
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
OT was iconic. So much so that the people who made Wanted stole the plot twist of ESB. Possibly the biggest and unforeseen plot twist in cinematic history. The PT killed the force by trying to put a scientific spin on it. I don't recall OB1 or Yoda mentioning midichlorians to Luke in either of their explanations of the force. The force was meant to be mystic and not fully understood. They just needed a way to show that Anakin was more powerful than Yoda. But hey... to each their own, right?

Being iconic doesn't make it complex or deep. The OT isn't anymore complex then the PT is. The only reason the OT is held up on a pedestal at all is because it, at the time, had some of the best graphics and was an adrenaline junkies wet dream. The storyline itself is child-like. The good guys are extremely good. The bad guys are extremely bad. The good guys ultimately win at the end of the trilogy... because they're good guys. Even when I watched RotJ and ESB as a little kid for the first time I was never impressed by any of that "I can sense the conflict within you" stuff. It's shallow and was as badly paced as Anakin's fall to the dark side. Anakin's fall is actually more believable, considering we see that Anakin obviously had mental problems throughout the second movie, and so it's not really a surprise that he turned evil. Vader spends the first two movies slaughtering his own men, breaking peoples necks, torturing the main characters, trying to turn his own son to the dark side... and he does all of this without any hesitation. Then in the last half an hour of the third movie he turns himself all around and makes the right choice? That is bad pacing...

The OT is a better trilogy then the PT? Arguable. The OT is much more complex then the PT? Hardly.

Darth Subjekt
I never said it was more complex, and if i gave that impression, then my mistake. I'm saying that adding in a hint of politics doesn't make the PT any ore complex than the OT. And to be fair, RotJ is my least favorite of the OT for exactly the reasons yo mentioned, but on a whole, the OT is better written. In Sith, (which i like the best of the PT) one minute Anakin is all, "I'm going to turn you in" and then 5 minutes later he's "doing whatever you a... ask." Then killing everyone he's been around since he was 9 and bunch of little kids. Is that good pacing?

sweersa
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
That's what I've said.

Ok, but to defend one, you don't have to bash the other. Once someone starts in on the OT, of course I'm gonna start in on the PT. But just because CGI was added to the PT duels, that doesn't make them "better," it makes them different. Flashy, nonsensical moves doesn't equate to a better fight sequence.



So whoa, wait a minute... you two think that the PT is more complex and deeper? And has a better stroyline? Oh my blue harvest heaven. That's just a little more in depth than i want to go right now, but that's crazy. Adding mild politics to a movie doesn't make it more complex or deep. They were mentioning that in ANH. And it wasn't about the politics necessarily, it was about Palps making moves throughout the system that lead to him ruling the galaxy.

OT was iconic. So much so that the people who made Wanted stole the plot twist of ESB. Possibly the biggest and unforeseen plot twist in cinematic history. The PT killed the force by trying to put a scientific spin on it. I don't recall OB1 or Yoda mentioning midichlorians to Luke in either of their explanations of the force. The force was meant to be mystic and not fully understood. They just needed a way to show that Anakin was more powerful than Yoda. But hey... to each their own, right?

Yeah to each his own. lol That saves the both of us a lot of time and stress. We obvious have different views on Star Wars and thats cool. You can pretend the PT never happened if you like.

OT fans would obviously be a lot happier if the Prequels emulated the original films, but Lucas wanted something new, and original. Like all other SW movies, Phantom Menace is unique and entertaining. Jar Jar inspired other movie makers to have 100% CGI characters and proved it is possible no matter how much some older fans hated him.

Many Star Wars fans before the Prequels had the movies already in their heads as what they uniquely wanted. These "movies" will only exist in their minds. Because no matter what anyone thinks, the Prequel are out and it is all Star Wars, canon, and what not.

But to each his own on how they liked the movies.

Blax_Hydralisk
Well if the man's obviously been disturbed since he was nine, then it's a bit more reasonable for him to just go off. Kids murder their parents when they're 16 years old for stupid ass reasons. People are just 'effed up.

Anakin's fall was more realistic then his redemption because, whereas he went from being a disturbed individual to becoming an extremely disturbed individual over the course of three movies and 10+ years, Vader went from being an extremely disturbed super villain to being... not an extremely disturbed man... in the course of one movie.

It's more realistic for an insane man to become even more insane.... over years... then it is for an incredibly insane man to suddenly repent and go light side in such a short time.

sweersa
Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
Well if the man's obviously been disturbed since he was nine, then it's a bit more reasonable for him to just go off. Kids murder their parents when they're 16 years old for stupid ass reasons. People are just 'effed up.

Anakin's fall was more realistic then his redemption because, whereas he went from being a disturbed individual to becoming an extremely disturbed individual over the course of three movies and 10+ years, Vader went from being an extremely disturbed super villain to being... not an extremely disturbed man... in the course of one movie.

It's more realistic for an insane man to become even more insane.... over years... then it is for an incredibly insane man to suddenly repent and go light side in such a short time.

I suppose. I love all six films, but I hate it when people trash the Prequels, I mean, none of the SW films are perfect but to say one trilogy is better than the other is stupid in my opinion. Each trilogy involved ground breaking visual effects and opened barriers to other production companies.

Apparently some people feel as if George Lucas rapped their childhood. But I mean, Star Wars is George Lucas, he owns it and it is his thing. He has every right to do what he did. To say midiclorians are stupid is pathetic becuase it happened in the Star War universe, then fans get all upset and make up their own version of Star Wars in their minds where The Force is just...the Force and has no justification to how it actually works.

I am sure the Prequels will be appreciated more when they age. I mean the Empire Strikes Back made the least amount of money I think and many fans now believe it is the strongest one.

Blax_Hydralisk
My post was actually in reply to Subject's post.

waffles.

Darth Subjekt
Dude, what the hell are you talking about? When did I say that I made up my own versions in my head? I, along with countless others, think the midchlorian garbage is just that... garbage. I'm not saying its not valid, I'm not saying its not canon. I'm saying its stupid. Obviously it wasn't part of his "original" vision, or else he would have mentioned it in the original movies.

Read this and tell me if this even gives the ability for midicholians. This is from the script.

YODA: And well you should not. For my ally in the Force. And a
powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. It's energy
surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we...(Yoda pinches
Luke's shoulder)...not this crude matter. (a sweeping gesture) You must
feel the Force around you. (gesturing) Here, between you...me...the
tree...the rock...everywhere! Yes, even between this land and that
ship!

If we are luminous beings, and not "crude matter," i.e. flesh, bone, and blood... then how can the force be tangible "Crude matter" in our blood? That's all i'm saying about that. I know GL wrote it into the saga and therefore it goes, but you act like he's never made a mistake with the script or wrote something you don't like.

You keep saying that saying one is better than the other, yet you keep saying that the PT is better.


Blax:

You can tell in ESB than Vader is already starting to lighten up. You can tell he's thinking about Luke in a fatherly way, despite still being twisted by the darkside. And in RotJ, you can tell he doesn't want to hurt Luke or even turn him into the Emperor. So his transition is gradual, just not as emphasized as some would like. And he did fulfil the prophecy. But i do understand your point though.

Pancakes.

sweersa
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Dude, what the hell are you talking about? When did I say that I made up my own versions in my head? I, along with countless others, think the midchlorian garbage is just that... garbage. I'm not saying its not valid, I'm not saying its not canon. I'm saying its stupid. Obviously it wasn't part of his "original" vision, or else he would have mentioned it in the original movies.

Read this and tell me if this even gives the ability for midicholians. This is from the script.

YODA: And well you should not. For my ally in the Force. And a
powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. It's energy
surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we...(Yoda pinches
Luke's shoulder)...not this crude matter. (a sweeping gesture) You must
feel the Force around you. (gesturing) Here, between you...me...the
tree...the rock...everywhere! Yes, even between this land and that
ship!

If we are luminous beings, and not "crude matter," i.e. flesh, bone, and blood... then how can the force be tangible "Crude matter" in our blood? That's all i'm saying about that. I know GL wrote it into the saga and therefore it goes, but you act like he's never made a mistake with the script or wrote something you don't like.

You keep saying that saying one is better than the other, yet you keep saying that the PT is better.


Blax:

You can tell in ESB than Vader is already starting to lighten up. You can tell he's thinking about Luke in a fatherly way, despite still being twisted by the darkside. And in RotJ, you can tell he doesn't want to hurt Luke or even turn him into the Emperor. So his transition is gradual, just not as emphasized as some would like. And he did fulfil the prophecy. But i do understand your point though.

Pancakes.

Yoda was talking about the Force though in ESB. He didn't mention Midi-chlorians becuase they were not invented...er I mean he really didn't need to talk about it becuase he knew Luke was already very Force sensitive.

Midi-chlorians communicate with the Force, it really has nothing to do with the Force itself. Life creates it. Life in scientific form is biology, and Midi-chlorians are microscopic lifeforms so they are living.

The "crude matter" line does spark some questions though. Maybe it is similar to how we pray to God to communicate with him. Maybe the midi-chlorians are just an intermediary for living things to communicate and access the Force while they are not part of it or alive.

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
My post was actually in reply to Subject's post.

waffles.

Sorry, but please use the quote feature next time.

Master Crimzon
Heh. I didn't say the prequels had a better story- just that it had a more complex, deep story that seems to be more connected to the 'real' world than the previous, black-and-white styled OT. The OT is more naive, with clear good guys, clear bad guys, and is also, at points, unrealistic, such as the majority of RotJ (the worst Star Wars movie, IMO). Meanwhile, in the prequels, the 'good guys' come off as complete dicks, ignorant of people's actual necessity rather than 'learn the force' and stuff like that.

The bad guys are almost entirely, what I said previously, misguided idealists; Dooku doesn't want to 'CONTROL THE WORLD!!!'. He wants to, incredibly enough, heal corruption in the senate. Does that remind you of real-world situations? Anakin turned to the dark side for believable reasons, and while his transformation was too quick, the reasons were believable. Put yourself in his shoes, and you'll understand. He tried to bring order to the galaxy and save his loved ones- yeah, it's tough to 'like' such a complex villain, that is not quite... a 'true' villain, so much as he is a misguided hero.

Yeah. The OT's story was more continuous, more even, more linear, and easier to understand, but the PT's story was a more complex one (although that doesn't quite surface until RotS). As I said previously, that's not necessarily better, but... you get the point.

J.P Jaeh_Poole
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt

But the saber duels being "flashy" doesn't make them "better." A lot of the flashiness is unnecessary, and its noticeable. But more of the younger fans like the PT cause it came out in their time and was geared towards them. Which is fine. Just understand the reasons for the differences and don't just say that the PT pwns the OT cause its newer and flashier.

...not all uh, young fans. I could be considered as one, but I'm more of an OT fan than a PT fan. You have to appreciate the good storyline/plot and the emotional depth in the OT... The PT's weren't all bad, but the plot was, IMHO, not that well written. I felt like everything was just too childish(well, maybe not everything on this one. But argh, TPM.) and fast. One of the only few things that probably saved it is the flashing lights and the insane special effects.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt

*sigh* I wasn't referring only to you, but in general to the younger fans that think the OT sucked just because it's not filled with pointless CGI.

one of the problems of my generation. Ugh. Attracted by cool flashing lights and overloads of special effects. Whatever happened to just enjoying the awesome story?

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

Each trilogy has more of a fun, lightweight episode. ANH/AotC seems like the correct comparison.

cheesy romantic scenes are considered fun? *blinks innocently*

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Heh. I didn't say the prequels had a better story- just that it had a more complex, deep story that seems to be more connected to the 'real' world than the previous, black-and-white styled OT. The OT is more naive, with clear good guys, clear bad guys, and is also, at points, unrealistic, such as the majority of RotJ (the worst Star Wars movie, IMO). Meanwhile, in the prequels, the 'good guys' come off as complete dicks, ignorant of people's actual necessity rather than 'learn the force' and stuff like that.

agreed. Sometimes black-and-whites are refreshing though... back when the world looked way simpler then. *sigh*



Don't get me wrong, I like the PT, but the OT just appeals to me more. *shrug*

But something sparks in my mind on how PT and OT are alike in a lot of ways- I just can't type them all down because somehow I can't quite describe them.

But all this is IMHO.

Blax_Hydralisk
Originally posted by J.P Jaeh_Poole
one of the problems of my generation. Ugh. Attracted by cool flashing lights and overloads of special effects. Whatever happened to just enjoying the awesome story?

Because the story wasn't all that awesome. no expression

And geeze, all of you people who talk about this, you don't realize that the OT is famous because of it's graphics. It's story wasn't in any way unique, or special, or anything. Star Wars at the time was the prettiest movie ever, and it's fan were doing the exact same thing then that PT fans are doing now.
So I fail to see your points in this regard.




Well... there's drugs for that m'dear. xD

And speaking of which, I haven't seen you for a loooongggg time. How's life?

Darth Subjekt
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Heh. I didn't say the prequels had a better story- just that it had a more complex, deep story that seems to be more connected to the 'real' world than the previous, black-and-white styled OT. The OT is more naive, with clear good guys, clear bad guys, and is also, at points, unrealistic, such as the majority of RotJ (the worst Star Wars movie, IMO). Meanwhile, in the prequels, the 'good guys' come off as complete dicks, ignorant of people's actual necessity rather than 'learn the force' and stuff like that. Unrealistic? So... the talking robots with personalities and emotions, lightsabers, explosions in space, the mysterious thing called the force, and the ability to perform superhuman feats aren't realistic, but having "black and white" heroes and villains, is? Hmm, ok. That's what Lucas wanted. A pure morality tale. He's said that on multiple occasions. Who came off like complete dicks?

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
The bad guys are almost entirely, what I said previously, misguided idealists; Dooku doesn't want to 'CONTROL THE WORLD!!!'. He wants to, incredibly enough, heal corruption in the senate. Does that remind you of real-world situations? Anakin turned to the dark side for believable reasons, and while his transformation was too quick, the reasons were believable. Put yourself in his shoes, and you'll understand. He tried to bring order to the galaxy and save his loved ones- yeah, it's tough to 'like' such a complex villain, that is not quite... a 'true' villain, so much as he is a misguided hero. No no no, I'm sorry but you're wrong here. Dooku, as a political idealist wanted to fight corruption in the republic. However, Dooku as a Sith Lord - Darth Tyraunus - did in fact want to help his master 'CONTROL THE GALAXY!!!!" I don't know many political idealists that are willing to start wars in which millions die through corruption, just to rid the republic of... corruption. And Anakin is not a villain, you're right. He's whats considered a tragic hero which the very concept dates back to Shakespearean times. I'm cool with that too, as Anakin/Vader is my fav character.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Yeah. The OT's story was more continuous, more even, more linear, and easier to understand, but the PT's story was a more complex one (although that doesn't quite surface until RotS). As I said previously, that's not necessarily better, but... you get the point. Whats so complex about a boy who grows up in bullshit scenarios and becomes bad, along with a bad guy making moves through political channels to take control? Hitler, anyone? (pssst... that's not original either)

Originally posted by J.P Jaeh_Poole
...not all uh, young fans. I could be considered as one, but I'm more of an OT fan than a PT fan. You have to appreciate the good storyline/plot and the emotional depth in the OT... The PT's weren't all bad, but the plot was, IMHO, not that well written. I felt like everything was just too childish(well, maybe not everything on this one. But argh, TPM.) and fast. One of the only few things that probably saved it is the flashing lights and the insane special effects.
I know. I didn't say all young fans. And your latter sentence was my entire point - all the SFX were making up for the story line - or lack there of.

Originally posted by J.P Jaeh_Poole
one of the problems of my generation. Ugh. Attracted by cool flashing lights and overloads of special effects. Whatever happened to just enjoying the awesome story? Ok, now i don't know if you're being sarcastic or serious. I'm all for SFX and such, I just don't think they should be expected to carry a movie.

Originally posted by J.P Jaeh_Poole
cheesy romantic scenes are considered fun? *blinks innocently* One would have to admit that the Han and Leia sub plot was far less cheesy than Ani/Padme. Han never jumped on a horrible looking CGI animal to ride and then fall off. Plus Han was a man about his. Not a whiny little girl.

Originally posted by J.P Jaeh_Poole
agreed. Sometimes black-and-whites are refreshing though... back when the world looked way simpler then. *sigh* It really is. That was part of the intrigue of the trilogy and why it dominated all other movies.

Originally posted by J.P Jaeh_Poole
Don't get me wrong, I like the PT, but the OT just appeals to me more. *shrug* That's what I said in the beginning of all this, too.

Originally posted by J.P Jaeh_Poole
But something sparks in my mind on how PT and OT are alike in a lot of ways- I just can't type them all down because somehow I can't quite describe them.

But all this is IMHO. I know what you mean, and yes, there are some ways the PT emulates the OT, but its still different.

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
Because the story wasn't all that awesome. no expression What, and the PT story is?

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
And geeze, all of you people who talk about this, you don't realize that the OT is famous because of it's graphics. It's story wasn't in any way unique, or special, or anything. Star Wars at the time was the prettiest movie ever, and it's fan were doing the exact same thing then that PT fans are doing now.
So I fail to see your points in this regard. I know that. And no its not a completely original story, as he got his inspiration from the Saturday morning serials and such. And like my man Nas said, Nothing under the sun is original, its all how you spin it.I'm not saying one is more original than the other, but I am saying that one (the OT) is better written. The average fan's age for the PT was 24, where as the average fan age for the PT is 17. Those demographics seek different things in movies, and that's fine. This all started about the lightsaber duels anyways, not the trilogies as a whole, as its turned into.

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
Well... there's drugs for that m'dear. xD And where might we get some of these?

Master Crimzon
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Unrealistic? So... the talking robots with personalities and emotions, lightsabers, explosions in space, the mysterious thing called the force, and the ability to perform superhuman feats aren't realistic, but having "black and white" heroes and villains, is? Hmm, ok. That's what Lucas wanted. A pure morality tale. He's said that on multiple occasions. Who came off like complete dicks?

Percisely. I know that's what GL intended, I said it the very beginning- however, it doesn't quite attract me as much as the PT's story, where... well, it's more 'gray' than either white or black. The line between hero and villain is thinner, particlarly in the example of Anakin.

Who came off as complete dicks? PT Jedi. Anakin is emotionally torn, destroyed, and distressed, and comes to Master Yoda-much-fear-I-sense and confides in him his emotions. What does Yoda say? "Errr... train yourself so you won't care about people anymore!". Sorry, that's ridiculous. And there's Mace- instead of being a more kindly figure to Anakin, he acts like an old fart to him. Surprised that Anakin chose Palpatine over him? I'm not.

Meanwhile, the OT good guys came off as totally perfect. They made the lesser bad guy turn good again, they had the uber evil guy die, they won the ridiculous battle of Endor, they all turned out to be morally correct. On the last example, I must elaborate. Han Solo, my favorite of the OT, is a supposed 'gruff, lonely' type who works alone. In the end? He joins the rebellion, becomes a war hero, etc, etc, etc. Luke, of course, saved the universe and redeemed his father. Is there any true, glaring moral defect or any sort of bad decisions (in the end) by the good guys? Well, at least as presented within the films, absolutely none.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
No no no, I'm sorry but you're wrong here. Dooku, as a political idealist wanted to fight corruption in the republic. However, Dooku as a Sith Lord - Darth Tyraunus - did in fact want to help his master 'CONTROL THE GALAXY!!!!" I don't know many political idealists that are willing to start wars in which millions die through corruption, just to rid the republic of... corruption. And Anakin is not a villain, you're right. He's whats considered a tragic hero which the very concept dates back to Shakespearean times. I'm cool with that too, as Anakin/Vader is my fav character.

I hate the whiny character of Anakin, but he's easily the most complex and interesting character in Star Wars.

Dooku could, at the beginning of his journey, at least, be called an anti-hero. Not an uber "CONTROL THE WORLD!!!" villain. Off the top of my mind, in the RotS novel, he believes that the ultimate goal of Sidious and him is to replace the Jedi Order with a new, superior Sith army- he even says that it is tiring for him to play the villain for so long, implying that he, indeed, has overall good intentions (or at least they appear so to him), not necessarily selfish intentions.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Whats so complex about a boy who grows up in bullshit scenarios and becomes bad, along with a bad guy making moves through political channels to take control? Hitler, anyone? (pssst... that's not original either)

A messed up kid who goes through all the bad decisions in the world, complicated politics, secret love, war, destruction, death, and I could go on. The OT? Kid learns that he has uber force potential, faces his father multiple times, redeems him, and saves the world.

What do you think is more complicated, really?

Oh, and to be honest, I'm not into the uber special effects of the prequels. Sure, they're amazing, but I never found them to be purely the point. And I like fast and flashing fights better than the OT's one. Personal taste, lol.

I could similarly say that all the old fans refuse to rape their own childhood by admitting that a series equal or perhaps even superior to their beloved childhood series, and so they live in denial. They also have an aversion to high budgets and awesome special effects... why? Dun ask me.

Not saying this situation necessarily applies to you (it's your right to like the OT as much as the PT, especially as you're not doing it in the... err... prequel basher way), but it certainly applies to many of the people I've seen on the web.

Darth Subjekt
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Percisely. I know that's what GL intended, I said it the very beginning- however, it doesn't quite attract me as much as the PT's story, where... well, it's more 'gray' than either white or black. The line between hero and villain is thinner, particlarly in the example of Anakin. I meant to say those aren't UNrealistic... but i think you got my point. The story isn't meant to be realistic. It's a space opera/fantasy movie. A morality tale, and in morality tales, you have to have cookie cutter good guys and bad guys.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Who came off as complete dicks? PT Jedi. Anakin is emotionally torn, destroyed, and distressed, and comes to Master Yoda-much-fear-I-sense and confides in him his emotions. What does Yoda say? "Errr... train yourself so you won't care about people anymore!". Sorry, that's ridiculous. And there's Mace- instead of being a more kindly figure to Anakin, he acts like an old fart to him. Surprised that Anakin chose Palpatine over him? I'm not. As if they had nothing to worry about? I'd say they had a pretty damn good reason not to want to train Anakin. They were right, he was too old and had too much anger in him. The prophecy, as Yoda said, was misread. Even on the OS under Anakin, it says that had they gotten him at infancy, they could have instilled the ability to control emotions and attachments which is essential to Jedi. It served them pretty well before when they got rid of the Sith for 1000 years, and then comes Anakin and almost destroys the Jedi. The OT was the aftermath of all this, thus clear lines are drawn.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Meanwhile, the OT good guys came off as totally perfect. They made the lesser bad guy turn good again, they had the uber evil guy die, they won the ridiculous battle of Endor, they all turned out to be morally correct. On the last example, I must elaborate. Han Solo, my favorite of the OT, is a supposed 'gruff, lonely' type who works alone. In the end? He joins the rebellion, becomes a war hero, etc, etc, etc. Luke, of course, saved the universe and redeemed his father. Is there any true, glaring moral defect or any sort of bad decisions (in the end) by the good guys? Well, at least as presented within the films, absolutely none. Endor isn't that ridiculous, as Vietnam beat us (well the US if you aren't American), which is why GL did that. And yes, OB1 being the beacon of truth he was, lied to Luke on multiple occasions to get him to kill Vader. That's compassionate with a strong moral compass.
The rest are exactly as they're meant to be.


Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I hate the whiny character of Anakin, but he's easily the most complex and interesting character in Star Wars. Likewise, i feel the same, but his character carries over to the OT as well, and he still has all this conflict, making him a "gray" character still.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Dooku could, at the beginning of his journey, at least, be called an anti-hero. Not an uber "CONTROL THE WORLD!!!" villain. Off the top of my mind, in the RotS novel, he believes that the ultimate goal of Sidious and him is to replace the Jedi Order with a new, superior Sith army- he even says that it is tiring for him to play the villain for so long, implying that he, indeed, has overall good intentions (or at least they appear so to him), not necessarily selfish intentions. Because in the beginning he wasn't a Sith. But after Sidious got a hold of him, he became evil. Sith are evil, plain and simple. And to eradicate one and replace with the other, is evil. However, as GL said many times, nobody who is evil believes that they are evil. Its all based on "a certain point of view," with both trilogies shared. That's why he felt he was doing good. Same with Sidious, although he exemplified the very essence of evil.



Originally posted by Master Crimzon
A messed up kid who goes through all the bad decisions in the world, complicated politics, secret love, war, destruction, death, and I could go on. The OT? Kid learns that he has uber force potential, faces his father multiple times, redeems him, and saves the world. Rather, a completely sheltered kid grows up in a time of war himself, but isn't allowed to do anything, is lied to about his father all his life. He meets old Ben who tells him the truth (somewhat) about his dad being a great Jedi, opens his world to the force, kid finds his parents (aunt and uncle) dead in a gruesome manner, then goes on an extremely dangerous mission in which he watches his new (and at this time, only) friend die by a guy he's supposed to kill and to his knowledge, killed his father. Then is thrust into a galactic war about a week later in which he has to help defeat the ultimate power in the universe. And then i could go on and on as well. See? Its all how you describe it. All the while learning the ways of the force when he'd be much more susceptible to falling to the darkside.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
What do you think is more complicated, really? I'd say the underlying complexity is about equal. One is just, to me, better written. Most fans and critics agree. But that's neither her nor there.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Oh, and to be honest, I'm not into the uber special effects of the prequels. Sure, they're amazing, but I never found them to be purely the point. And I like fast and flashing fights better than the OT's one. Personal taste, lol. Look, i like the duels of the PT too, just not as much as the OT. That's it.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I could similarly say that all the old fans refuse to rape their own childhood by admitting that a series equal or perhaps even superior to their beloved childhood series, and so they live in denial. They also have an aversion to high budgets and awesome special effects... why? Dun ask me. None of that is true or applies to me. I don't mind big budget as long as the story is solid. And sadly, the PT isn't equal to or superior to the OT. ANd that's not denial, that's just the way it is. And this "raping of the childhood" shit is garbage. That's just something that people say when trying to defend the PT. Star Wars isn't that serious to me that because the PT wasn't made the way it could have and should have been, that I feel my childhood was raped. That's just stupid.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Not saying this situation necessarily applies to you (it's your right to like the OT as much as the PT, especially as you're not doing it in the... err... prequel basher way), but it certainly applies to many of the people I've seen on the web. And the inverse is true as well. Kids that are used to cutting edge CGi see the OT and say its shit because it doesn't look the same as the PT. I like all of them, but the OT is better to me.

Blax_Hydralisk
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
What, and the PT story is?

No, but I didn't say that, did I? She said the equivalent of "why can't people just ignore the FX and settle with the awesome story."

The story isn't all that awesome. Neither the PT or OT's stories are all that great. But.. PT does have a ton of sextactular graphics. So... if I'm going to a cheesy sci-fi flick with cheesy diologue and a cheesy story, I'd at least like for it to be presented in an incredibly beautiful, decked out way.


Well, I disagree. You've already seen my qualms with the pacing and the black and white ultimate good and ultimate evil thing in particular. Indiana Jones has the same problem...




I uh... I don't know what you're talking about.. >.>

Darth Subjekt
wow, i dont know what you said or what i said. Either the quote boxes got messed up or i'm just drunker than i think... beer

Blax_Hydralisk
Fixed... 131

Darth Subjekt
Oh, you're good. And fast.

However, we'll just have to disagree. We both have our opinions and no amount of debating will change that. erm

Blax_Hydralisk
Well... want another beer in that case?

Darth Subjekt
let's do it up!

Master Crimzon
Yeah. I'm not gonna argue wit ya anymore; no need, really. Just opinions and stuff. I think the PT had a more complex story, but the OT's (except for in the case of RotS) executed its own black-and-white good-guy-kills-bad-guy type story in a superior manner, most due to the story being more consistent and more... 'clear'. Just my two cents, though.

J.P Jaeh_Poole
Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
Because the story wasn't all that awesome. no expression

And geeze, all of you people who talk about this, you don't realize that the OT is famous because of it's graphics. It's story wasn't in any way unique, or special, or anything. Star Wars at the time was the prettiest movie ever, and it's fan were doing the exact same thing then that PT fans are doing now.
So I fail to see your points in this regard.

And The PT's story...?

I'm not saying that special effects are important. I mean, don't get me wrong, I love special effects a lot and I know they're somewhat necessary... but that doesn't mean the story should be ignored.

The story was sorta special in a way, because other movies have been copying the plotline even. and they say imitation is the highest form of flattery(or something like that) right? so that must mean that the storyline is indeed good.

I'm just kinda frustrated with people who think effects are all that, that it's the only thing that makes up the movie.
I know people who refuse to watch the OT JUST because they don't like the special effects. Heck, I know movies that have worse effects than the OT... I mean, if you only like special effects, what's the point of the movie having a plotline, then?



yeah, but I can't touch any of them. stick out tongue

Just entered the wonderful world of college last June(no sarcasm here.. well, maybe a bit). And now I'm starting to bleed because of the midterm exams. And for the past unexplained absences, I was busy and I was at the POTC forums. then driven away by some spammer. Maybe the SW Clone Wars coming brought me back here...

But to answer the quoestion, life's fine- great even.. smile great that you even recognize me... big grin so, how about yours?

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt


I know. I didn't say all young fans. And your latter sentence was my entire point - all the SFX were making up for the story line - or lack there of.

Right. Agreed. *nods*



refer to my reply to blax's post. it's up there... big grin



exactly.



*nods* agreed.



I know, just repeated to show my POV and for added effect... big grin



Well, that's the way it should be i guess- after all, they were written by only one person... agreed about them being different, though.

sweersa
Here is a little something I cooked up on 3DS MAX today. The sky reminds me of Hoth.

http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/2585/locationjm0.jpg

Darth Subjekt
pretty good. I know dick about that program though so i don t know what its capable of, but that's cool.

sweersa
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
pretty good. I know dick about that program though so i don t know what its capable of, but that's cool.

Thanks. 3DS MAX is used to make video games, movie CG, etc. The only limit it really has is the user's knowledge and experience and they computer it is running on basically.

It is a lot of fun.

Darth Subjekt
I'll have to look into it. They have it for Mac?

queeq
Looks fakish to me.

sweersa
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
I'll have to look into it. They have it for Mac?

No. 3ds MAX runs on workstations or high end PCs. Users who want to run it on a Mac have to dual boot with Windows, thus they would need a Mac with an Intel CPU.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_films_made_with_Autodesk_3ds_Max

That is a list of movies that used 3ds MAX for visual effects in part or in whole. Another popular program similar to MAX is MAYA.

Originally posted by queeq
Looks fakish to me.

Thank you...I am still learning...and I made something, which one do you like better?

http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/386/afcsyi3.th.jpg

Hahaha. Maybe I should post an HD image of that...strech out everyones window with a normal monitor...

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/3452/chucksrj7.th.jpg

I heard these are illegal in parts of Europe.

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/5585/saberswc4.th.jpg

Which is why I carry these...

queeq
Still a bit sterile... not to insult you or anything. I mean, I can't do it myself.

But the surfaces are too flat, too dead. You gotta work on texture and lighting a bit more. Basic models are fine though.

sweersa
Originally posted by queeq
Still a bit sterile... not to insult you or anything. I mean, I can't do it myself.

But the surfaces are too flat, too dead. You gotta work on texture and lighting a bit more. Basic models are fine though.

I see what you mean. I will work on one of the lightsabers and try to give it improved texture and lighting. It will be a few days before it will be ready. I have learned a little bit about more realistic materials and textures recently so it should look better.

http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/3631/glassbowlkl1.th.jpg

This is a glass bowl with some fruit that I added to an animation recently.

queeq
Modeeling looks fine... but again, it's texture and lighting.

Organic stuff is quite hard, it's full of imperfections. So you have to make it imperfect. But keep it up, you're getting there.

sweersa
Originally posted by queeq
Modeeling looks fine... but again, it's texture and lighting.

Organic stuff is quite hard, it's full of imperfections. So you have to make it imperfect. But keep it up, you're getting there.

Thanks, I understand the textures, but what don't you like about the lighting?

That is very true about organic things. They are also very hard to model. Mechanical things are easy, most organic stuff requires very complex geometry.

Someday I will make you an updated lightsaber. I'll give it a good metal texture and play with the lighting. Hopefully I will learn some new things along the way.

queeq
THe lights look to spotty... but again, texture and lighting go hand in hand.

sweersa
Originally posted by queeq
THe lights look to spotty... but again, texture and lighting go hand in hand.

That must be becuase there is only one basic light in that shot.

The glass material is something new I learned, I am happy with the results so far.

sweersa
Okay Queeq I made an awesome looking lightsaber with majorly improved material/texture just for you. smile

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/6513/lightsaberoh7.th.jpg

Blax_Hydralisk
You're adorable when you use the happy face smiley, FYI.

And Nun-chucks are actually illegal to have in the States too. I think you can have one at home, maybe. But they're considered to be as dangerous as a gun and aren't allowed to be carried on the streets.

Darth Subjekt
I have about 4 pair at home, and was told not to walk around with them, but you can have them indoor and in Dojo's. You'd have to cause I started trainin9 with them when i was 9 up until I was 16. 28 now, so i doubt the law changed much since then but i guess it could depend on the state.

sweersa
Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
You're adorable when you use the happy face smiley, FYI.

And Nun-chucks are actually illegal to have in the States too. I think you can have one at home, maybe. But they're considered to be as dangerous as a gun and aren't allowed to be carried on the streets.

Thanks! smile

I wonder why chucks are illegal here...they don't seem that dangerous in the hands of most people.

queeq
Originally posted by sweersa
Okay Queeq I made an awesome looking lightsaber with majorly improved material/texture just for you. smile

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/6513/lightsaberoh7.th.jpg

Nice... but still fakish. Sorry to be a pain. hehehe

sweersa
Originally posted by queeq
Nice... but still fakish. Sorry to be a pain. hehehe

Thanks, well the only thing I could think of doing is making it look imperfect, giving it scratches etc. But I like it how it is. :P

Nothing looks more real than the real thing...not that lightsabers exist...

queeq
Aha, but therein lies the trick. Metal texture is not something custum. Just look at a pic of prop lightsabre and your animation. Compare and see how different it looks.

sweersa
Originally posted by queeq
Aha, but therein lies the trick. Metal texture is not something custum. Just look at a pic of prop lightsabre and your animation. Compare and see how different it looks.

The props have imperfections and are more dull. I tend to see my made lightsaber as being immaculate, but for realism I would have to consider the "used universe" thing.

Compared to a mint replica the textures are pretty close though.

http://img376.imageshack.us/img376/8274/anakinlightsaberep3lrgkx5.th.jpg

queeq
Maybe you should start bij making your blacks really black.

And the lighting is quite different. It's clear that one is animated and the other is real.

sweersa
Originally posted by queeq
Maybe you should start bij making your blacks really black.

And the lighting is quite different. It's clear that one is animated and the other is real.

I like the current black I have. It is reflective. I also like the lighting, but that is just me.

queeq
Well, there ya go then.

sweersa
Originally posted by queeq
Well, there ya go then.

Yay! Mace's lightsaber would be fun becuase of all of the metal types and bling on it.

queeq
Go ahead.

sweersa
Originally posted by queeq
Go ahead.

Eh...maybe later day.

It would be a fun project though.

queeq
Indeed.

Darth Subjekt
Don't they have lightsaber tutorials on youtube for things like photoshop?

Bardock42
Originally posted by sweersa
Yeah becuase we all love the slow lightsaber fights and Mark's acting of the original trilogy.

If you don't like the Prequels you can shut up and not buy them on DVD.


Or you can voice your opinion and buy them on DVD to ***** about it. Either really.

Originally posted by sweersa
Don't even get me started on how they spanked the Classic trilogy at the box office. Then you would say "Wahh everyone saw Episode I becuase they thought it would be so much better.." Yeah that's why II and III also did way well and we all saw it 3+ times at the theatre.


So? No one is denying they were successful.

Originally posted by sweersa
If you can't already tell I enjoy all 6 Star Wars films, as a true fan I follow Lucas' vision as being legit. Sure I may not agree on some things in some of the movies like everyone else but that is too bad.


Meh, you are not a true fan for that. Of course Lucas has the rights over his own creation, for now. But what's the point you are trying to make?

Originally posted by sweersa
It isn't like 4,5, and 6 are all perfect films. We all have our opinions but it all comes down to what the man in charge wants. That's what we get. Live with it.

We might just as well read fan fiction. Or EU. We can get whatever we want, mate. I really don't see your point though, you seem to have taken a point about the PT not being as good as the OT and made it about what Lucas wants...well, Lucas' desires don't make a movie better.

queeq
Three words: Howard the Duck.

Bardock42
Originally posted by queeq
Three words: Howard the Duck. Point proven.

queeq
Happy Dance

sweersa
Originally posted by Bardock42
Or you can voice your opinion and buy them on DVD to ***** about it. Either really.




So? No one is denying they were successful.




Meh, you are not a true fan for that. Of course Lucas has the rights over his own creation, for now. But what's the point you are trying to make?



We might just as well read fan fiction. Or EU. We can get whatever we want, mate. I really don't see your point though, you seem to have taken a point about the PT not being as good as the OT and made it about what Lucas wants...well, Lucas' desires don't make a movie better.

The PT was successful for a reason. They were not bad movies. Bad movies bomb at the box office. People liked the Prequels enough to see them multiple times at the theatre, or atleast I did. lol

So I am not a true fan? What defines a true fan? Your own personal opinion right? Go suck on a juice box I have a larger collection than you. Hahaha.

EU isn't so bad at times, most of it is odd, but whatever. The 6 movies is where it is at. The two trilogies make up the Star Wars saga. If you don't like the PT we are waiting for you to make them better...common man...upload your videos asap.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Don't they have lightsaber tutorials on youtube for things like photoshop?

I think so. I am not sure if Photoshop can do animations though, but I am not familiar with the program so I don't know for sure. I have heard Adobe After Effects can make superior lightsaber effects but I have always used Corel Painter, which has more of a rotoscoping way of doing things.

queeq
Photoshop lightsabre is easy. Rotoscoping is harder and more time consuming.

sweersa
Originally posted by queeq
Photoshop lightsabre is easy. Rotoscoping is harder and more time consuming.

I never tried any Adobe methods. Rotoscoping is a challenge at times. Give me a good sense of accomplishment when I am done though, I feel like I did it the old fashioned way. smile

Darth Subjekt
What, you gotta go frame by frame with rotoscoping, right?

sweersa
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
What, you gotta go frame by frame with rotoscoping, right?

Yes sir. I usually have about 30 fps (frames per second) It looks the best and it pretty close to most good video cams.

Darth Subjekt
Damn I bet that takes weeks to do a single fight. No wonder the releases are stretched so far apart, lol.

sweersa
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Damn I bet that takes weeks to do a single fight. No wonder the releases are stretched so far apart, lol.

Hahaha. I am sure that has something to do with it. I believe in the PT movies (maybe not TPM) they had something different where as they tracked the blades using software similar to Adobe After Effects. Rather than doing airbrushing on say...90 frames, they can do the first and last between a gap that has similar motion and the computer fills in the gaps. Basically that saves a lot of time and looks smoother than rotoscoping.

Excluding ANH, I believe they actually did every frame individually...with transparent overlays they would basically paint or airbrush in the effects. I also believe they used some kind of light for a better glow effect in post production also.

My methods are the same as the original in principal, one frame at a time, but is sort of a hybrid method between the two trilogies becuase I use a computer and software.

queeq
Tracking elements in action sequence gets better and better. But old fashioned rotoscoping does take place once in a while.

sweersa
Originally posted by queeq
Tracking elements in action sequence gets better and better. But old fashioned rotoscoping does take place once in a while.

It is fun, and old school. smile

queeq
Happy Dance

Bardock42
Originally posted by sweersa
The PT was successful for a reason. They were not bad movies. Bad movies bomb at the box office. People liked the Prequels enough to see them multiple times at the theatre, or atleast I did. lol

Well, there are really shit films that do well. But I agree that the PT aren't full shit, they are just nothing compared to the OT:

Originally posted by sweersa
So I am not a true fan? What defines a true fan? Your own personal opinion right? Go suck on a juice box I have a larger collection than you. Hahaha.

That's not what I said. I said you are not a true fan just because you view Lucas vision as legit. You might very well be a "true" fan (whatever that is), but not because of that.

Originally posted by sweersa
EU isn't so bad at times, most of it is odd, but whatever. The 6 movies is where it is at. The two trilogies make up the Star Wars saga. If you don't like the PT we are waiting for you to make them better...common man...upload your videos asap.

There are already better cuts out there. But hey, give me, lets say 100 000 000 Dollars and we talk in a year.

sweersa
Originally posted by Bardock42
Well, there are really shit films that do well. But I agree that the PT aren't full shit, they are just nothing compared to the OT:

Well shit films do well for a reason. People had to like to to see them a lot. If a film is successful it must be good, obviously people out there enjoy it, it sells DVDs, the producers are happy...it is a good movie. You may not like it, but that really doesn't matter. Everyone is entitled to their opioions, rather than saying it was a "shit movie" just say you didn't like it, or in your opinion you thought it was bad, don't state it as any fact.

There are plenty of successful and popular movies I don't like, but I don't go around saying they suck or anything...becuase i am in no position or have no right of saying that.


Originally posted by Bardock42
That's not what I said. I said you are not a true fan just because you view Lucas vision as legit. You might very well be a "true" fan (whatever that is), but not because of that.


I am a true fan of Star Wars becuase I enjoy it, I enjoy all six movies, I accept Lucas' vision as it is his story, he made it, he owns it. And i am a huge collector and spend hundreds on Star Wars merchandise, old and new every year. I would say I am a true fan. I am not saying you are not. Just don't tell me I am not becuase you have no say in that.

Bardock42
Originally posted by sweersa
Well shit films do well for a reason. People had to like to to see them a lot. If a film is successful it must be good, obviously people out there enjoy it, it sells DVDs, the producers are happy...it is a good movie. You may not like it, but that really doesn't matter. Everyone is entitled to their opioions, rather than saying it was a "shit movie" just say you didn't like it, or in your opinion you thought it was bad, don't state it as any fact.

Good is not a synonym of popular, friend. They aren't good to me for particular reasons. If I would equate goodness with popularity then yeah, they would be good movies, I don't though. And it's ironic that you do the same thing you accuse me of. Obviously when I say "it's a shit movie" I mean "It is a bad movie in my opinion because of following criteria ..."

Originally posted by sweersa
There are plenty of successful and popular movies I don't like, but I don't go around saying they suck or anything...becuase i am in no position or have no right of saying that.

Actually you do. If you have points you can state them and if it's just your opinion you can sa that as well.



Originally posted by sweersa
I am a true fan of Star Wars becuase I enjoy it, I enjoy all six movies, I accept Lucas' vision as it is his story, he made it, he owns it. And i am a huge collector and spend hundreds on Star Wars merchandise, old and new every year. I would say I am a true fan. I am not saying you are not. Just don't tell me I am not becuase you have no say in that.

Again, you pretend I said you aren't a true fan, I did not.

I like some EU, some parts of the PT and love the OT. So, an I not a true fan because I don't think the PT was good?

sweersa
Originally posted by Bardock42
Good is not a synonym of popular, friend. They aren't good to me for particular reasons. If I would equate goodness with popularity then yeah, they would be good movies, I don't though. And it's ironic that you do the same thing you accuse me of. Obviously when I say "it's a shit movie" I mean "It is a bad movie in my opinion because of following criteria ..."



Actually you do. If you have points you can state them and if it's just your opinion you can sa that as well.





Again, you pretend I said you aren't a true fan, I did not.

I like some EU, some parts of the PT and love the OT. So, an I not a true fan because I don't think the PT was good?

I never said you were not a true fan. I wish more people looked at Star Wars as being Star Wars. Everybody feels like they have to compare this trilogy with that trilogy...special editions to originals, just accept things as they are and move on. Star Wars will always be the same as we know it.

queeq
Fanship doesn't mean you praise everything they bring out. It also means you stick to it even when parts don't meet the standrads. The PT often did not meet the standards.

Bardock42
Originally posted by sweersa
I never said you were not a true fan. I wish more people looked at Star Wars as being Star Wars. Everybody feels like they have to compare this trilogy with that trilogy...special editions to originals, just accept things as they are and move on. Star Wars will always be the same as we know it.

Don't get the last part. Obviously Star Wars will not always be the same as we know it, since Lucas and his people add and change.

And I mean, you can be sure that once Lucas is dead someone else will milk the Franchise...if you don't like their vision is that okay or not?

Originally posted by queeq
Fanship doesn't mean you praise everything they bring out. It also means you stick to it even when parts don't meet the standrads. The PT often did not meet the standards.

Well, depends what "sticking to it means".

Personally I loved a lot of parts of the PT very, very much, but it had so many cringe worthy moments and stupid ideas that I just don't feel they were fantastic movies. I guess they were at least average or above average, but since I expected something like the OT, which I still think is pretty ****ing awesome, I was disappointed.

queeq
Same here. But for me that doesn't mean I just ditch the PT and pretend it never existed. It's like the ugly brother of the OT, but still the same family. And luckily there is a loophole that we can choose to stick to canon, otherwise the crap would outweigh the good bits.

sweersa
Originally posted by queeq
Fanship doesn't mean you praise everything they bring out. It also means you stick to it even when parts don't meet the standrads. The PT often did not meet the standards.

I don't like everything they bring out, I didn't hate the Clone Wars movie but I didn't love it either. I just happen to enjoy all six films nearly equally.

You can't really look at the OT as being the standard becuase it is so different from the PT. Different story, different films. If Lucas would have used the OT as a template for the PT, the older fans would love and worship him, but his next gen fan base or his younger fan base (which matters most) wouldn't want anything to do with it.

Bardock42
Originally posted by sweersa
I don't like everything they bring out, I didn't hate the Clone Wars movie but I didn't love it either. I just happen to enjoy all six films nearly equally.

You can't really look at the OT as being the standard becuase it is so different from the PT. Different story, different films. If Lucas would have used the OT as a template for the PT, the older fans would love and worship him, but his next gen fan base or his younger fan base (which matters most) wouldn't want anything to do with it.

But it doesn't really stand out. The PTs are just another bunch of movies...while the OT actually has something special to them...

sweersa
Originally posted by Bardock42
But it doesn't really stand out. The PTs are just another bunch of movies...while the OT actually has something special to them...

They had something special about them becuase you grew up with them...

Bardock42
Originally posted by sweersa
They had something special about them becuase you grew up with them...

That's one possibility. Or maybe they actually had better characters, better story and less lameness.

Master Crimzon
Originally posted by Bardock42
That's one possibility. Or maybe they actually had better characters, better story and less lameness.

Or maybe they didn't.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Or maybe they didn't.

Odd, since that was part of my first sentence, but thank you for restating my point.

Master Crimzon
Originally posted by Bardock42
Odd, since that was part of my first sentence, but thank you for restating my point.

It was intentional. Duh.

Bardock42

Master Crimzon
O... kay...

sweersa
I can't stand Prequal bashers. If they grew up watching I, II and III they would have more of an appreciation for them.

I was a kid when I watched the OT (7-8) Then the PT came along and I loved it. I still love it to this day being 17.

When all of the older critics are gone or have no say they should be appreciated much better.

Bardock42
Originally posted by sweersa
I can't stand Prequal bashers. If they grew up watching I, II and III they would have more of an appreciation for them.

I was a kid when I watched the OT (7-8) Then the PT came along and I loved it. I still love it to this day being 17.

When all of the older critics are gone or have no say they should be appreciated much better. I doubt that the PT is really going to be films for the ages.

sweersa
Originally posted by Bardock42
I doubt that the PT is really going to be films for the ages.

They already are...

So far it is clear that the Prequel threads are more active, atleast it seems that way.

Bardock42
Originally posted by sweersa
They already are...

So far it is clear that the Prequel threads are more active, atleast it seems that way. Well, it's only three years after, so I'd give it some time. Not sure what the activity of the PT is supposed to prove.

sweersa
Originally posted by Bardock42
Well, it's only three years after, so I'd give it some time. Not sure what the activity of the PT is supposed to prove.

It means it is popular. Time will most certainly tell my friend. Either one of us could be wrong.

Just gotta wait and see.

Sith Master X
Originally posted by sweersa
I can't stand Prequal bashers. If they grew up watching I, II and III they would have more of an appreciation for them.


thumb up Amen to that. I remember my 11th birthday in June of 98 how badly I wanted a Qui-Gon Jinn and Darth Maul lightsaber. The Prequels bring me back to my childhood days. So in a way, it definitely helps you appreciate them more.

Darth Subjekt
Originally posted by sweersa
. If Lucas would have used the OT as a template for the PT, the older fans would love and worship him, but his next gen fan base or his younger fan base (which matters most) wouldn't want anything to do with it. Uh, you contradict yourself. If he used that as a template and made the PT more like the OT, then that's what you would have grown up with and that's what you would have loved.

Also, why do the next generation and young fans matter more than those of us who made Star War so popular to begin with? You don't think that despite what's in theaters, I show my son and daughter the OT and explain how great it is so they can appreciate SW's roots?

For someone who hates people who bash "your" trilogy (despite it being "lucas' films"wink and all those who prefer the PT, you sure do do that to the OT and it's fans.

Originally posted by Sith Master X
thumb up Amen to that. I remember my 11th birthday in June of 98 how badly I wanted a Qui-Gon Jinn and Darth Maul lightsaber. The Prequels bring me back to my childhood days. So in a way, it definitely helps you appreciate them more. So then you must understand how us older fans, or fans of the OT feel? Therefore, we're not out of line or wrong for our opinions... right?

Bardock42
Originally posted by sweersa
It means it is popular. Time will most certainly tell my friend. Either one of us could be wrong.

Just gotta wait and see.

Agreed. Though, I doubt the reasons for why I dislike parts of the PT will change.Originally posted by Sith Master X
thumb up Amen to that. I remember my 11th birthday in June of 98 how badly I wanted a Qui-Gon Jinn and Darth Maul lightsaber. The Prequels bring me back to my childhood days. So in a way, it definitely helps you appreciate them more.

You mean 99, I think. And I was thirteen then, so I wouldn't really say that I was an old fart back then that just grew up with the OT and couldn't imagine anything happening to them.

Sith Master X
Yep, 99. My mistake.

sweersa
The PT isn't meant for the older fans really, they market is the younger generation. Why would Lucas aim to please the older fans when all of the money and the future it with the next generation?

I am sure Lucas could have very well made I-III with the scope of the Originals, but that would take all of the fun out of it becuase we have seen films like that.

This is something new, for new people. Myself, being a younger guy, I find the Prequels more exciting and not as boring as the OT. Not that the OT is boring, I mean I love it it is all Star Wars, I am just saying both trilogies are different and it isn't fair to really talk them down after growing up with the mind set that the originals were first, and right.

Bardock42
Originally posted by sweersa
The PT isn't meant for the older fans really, they market is the younger generation. Why would Lucas aim to please the older fans when all of the money and the future it with the next generation?

I am sure Lucas could have very well made I-III with the scope of the Originals, but that would take all of the fun out of it becuase we have seen films like that.

This is something new, for new people. Myself, being a younger guy, I find the Prequels more exciting and not as boring as the OT. Not that the OT is boring, I mean I love it it is all Star Wars, I am just saying both trilogies are different and it isn't fair to really talk them down after growing up with the mind set that the originals were first, and right.

Agreed, that wouldn't be fair. To talk them down for the garbage that is included in them on the other hand does seem fair. If the PT had been amazingly good movies no one would talk them down, they weren't...they were maybe slightly above average, so they did disappoint people that expected something of the scope and excellence of the OT.

sweersa
Originally posted by Bardock42
Agreed, that wouldn't be fair. To talk them down for the garbage that is included in them on the other hand does seem fair. If the PT had been amazingly good movies no one would talk them down, they weren't...they were maybe slightly above average, so they did disappoint people that expected something of the scope and excellence of the OT.

For one thing most of the critics or guys talking that trilogy down has a hard on for the Original trilogy becuase of their childhood revolved around of it. Of course they are not going to like anything new.

When today's younger generation grows up and has more of a voice I don't think the Prequels will get bashed nearly as bad becuase the kids who grew up with them will have something to say.

I agree some aspects of the Prequels could have been better like in all movies, but don't let things like that ruin it for you.

Bardock42
Originally posted by sweersa
For one thing most of the critics or guys talking that trilogy down has a hard on for the Original trilogy becuase of their childhood revolved around of it. Of course they are not going to like anything new.

When today's younger generation grows up and has more of a voice I don't think the Prequels will get bashed nearly as bad becuase the kids who grew up with them will have something to say.

I agree some aspects of the Prequels could have been better like in all movies, but don't let things like that ruin it for you.

Well, I somehow don't think that the PT is going to be in the minds of the younger generation as the OT has been. Afterall the OT has gathered fans since it was first showed. I only saw it in the mid nineties and still loved it. I doubt that in 20 years young kids are going to watch The Phantom Menace and be drawn in like so many have been with Star Wars.

And the little things did ruin some of it...as they were just so many and just so annoying.

sweersa
Originally posted by Bardock42
Well, I somehow don't think that the PT is going to be in the minds of the younger generation as the OT has been. Afterall the OT has gathered fans since it was first showed. I only saw it in the mid nineties and still loved it. I doubt that in 20 years young kids are going to watch The Phantom Menace and be drawn in like so many have been with Star Wars.

And the little things did ruin some of it...as they were just so many and just so annoying.

I also got into the OT in the mid 90's (I was around 6-7) When the Prequels came out I loved them also. I was still kid when they came out.

Bardock42
Originally posted by sweersa
I also got into the OT in the mid 90's (I was around 6-7) When the Prequels came out I loved them also. I was still kid when they came out.

As I said, I was thirteen. The point is it's not just people that saw Star Wars in the cinema back in the 70s that now dislike the PT. There are actually valid reasons, and to just disregard them as being solely influenced by sentimentality is wrong, in my opinion.

sweersa
Originally posted by Bardock42
As I said, I was thirteen. The point is it's not just people that saw Star Wars in the cinema back in the 70s that now dislike the PT. There are actually valid reasons, and to just disregard them as being solely influenced by sentimentality is wrong, in my opinion.

I don't think it is solely, it just has a huge part in the bashing IMO.

Bardock42
Originally posted by sweersa
I don't think it is solely, it just has a huge part in the bashing IMO.

It might be.

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