Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

CW Grievous vs TSW Ulic Qel Droma

Takes place in the arena at Geonosis.

Without commenting on who would win, this might be an excellent time to revisit discussion regarding mechanical reflexes versus the enhancing attributes of the Force, as that subject would most likely play a decisive role in this discussion. As far as lightsaber knowledge and abilities are concerned, General Grievous is in possession of high-tech analytic computers that allow him to analyze, mimic, and reproduce any and all lightsaber forms -- including Vaapad, the deadliest and most unpredictable of all modes of combat -- so, while I can't speak for Ulic Qel Droma's own skill, I will say that the General can reproduce any form that is thrown at him. Likewise, he possesses four mechanical arms that are each capable of moving up to twenty strikes per second, which eventually overloaded Obi-Wan Kenobi's defense.

Originally posted by Gideon
Without commenting on who would win, this might be an excellent time to revisit discussion regarding mechanical reflexes versus the enhancing attributes of the Force, as that subject would most likely play a decisive role in this discussion.

As Kenobi with two hands is very well capable to keep up with the four hands of Grievous and even cut two of them off, I'd say there isn't much room to argue here. Force aided attributes beat mechanical reflexes.



Yes. He can reproduce them which doesn't mean he can defend himself long enough to actually survive confrontations like that. At least if we take Dooku's thoughts into consideration, who gave Grievous an entire list of people he'd better avoid in combat.



Sorry. The novel is clearly overwritten by the movie here. Neither does Grievous strike twenty times per second, nor does he overload Obi-Wan's defence (in fact, Kenobi even takes 2 of the 4 lightsabers out).

And then we put Grievous against Ulic Qel-Droma.
Considering his lightsaber ability, Ulic is at least in one league with the people that could, according to Dooku's thoughts, beat Grievous in a duel situation. The guy was able to force Exar Kun into a stalemate and even defend himself against an enraged Jedi while having lost his connection to the force.

Yet even if somebody wants to assume that Grievous, having four lightsabers and his computer brain that apparently analyzes lightsaber forms instantly, can keep up with Ulic in a lightsaber fight: Ulic happens to be a Sith Lord. And considering his actual demonstrations of force abilities, he seems to be a rather powerful one:

- he apparently jumps right through a force attack from King Ommin, who was powerful enough to floor four Jedi (including Nomi Sunrider) with a similar attack before, who dominated the battlefield with his Dark Side abilities and held Arca Jeth as prisoner with his force powers alone.

- he tears down an interrogation droid in a vaderesque fashion, this while resisting the effects of a lethal Sith poision and being partitionally without conciousness.

- he, in a similar outburst of his raw power, easily throws two Jedi Knights around like ragdolls.

- in his duel with Mandalore he first deflects an entire rain of laser bolts coming from Mandalore's War Mount (apparently blocking most of them with some sort of force field). Then he kicks the best Mandalorian fight from said mount, does some nice jumping moves and finally defeats the dude with another force aided manouver.

- apparently he does possess the sister-amulet of the nice Sith construct that Exar Kun wears. Assuming he learned what to do with that, he might have received additional TK abilities as well as the ability to project energy beams using the amulet.

So even if we assume that Grievous can keep up with him using a lightsaber (and I doubt it, if we take things like force speed and Ulic's lightsaber skill into consideration), Ulic has more than enough force abilities to avoid melee confrontation and kick Grievous ass across the arena. Hell. Grievous ran when Kenobi force pushed him (which was an attack that actually needed some amount of time and was done while in close quarter combat with Grievous), had Kenobi effectively remove the armor that was protecting his organs with bare hands and was finally shot by a blaster. Ulic should curbstomp him.

Of course, but Obi-Wan Kenobi and Ulic Qel Droma aren't anything close to "average Jedi". General Grievous, despite having no real attunement to the Force, was able to best and overcome countless Jedi in combat, which is the point I was wanting to raise: is the 'average Joe' with a decent Force ability capable of overcoming Grievous, who is empowered only by state-of-the-art technology and not an all powerful omnipotent force (no pun intended)?



While Count Dooku's opinion is to be respected, the omniscient narrator of the novel's account is decisive -- the General was capable of analyzing and reproducing Vaapad (the "deadliest" and "most unpredictable" of all lightsaber forms) to the point that Master Windu himself wasn't interested in prolonging the confrontation. Windu was also listed as among those whom Grievous shouldn't have confronted, but he did, and he presented himself as a serious threat. While he likely couldn't have beaten Windu, the point is that even without the Force, the General's ability was proficient enough that he was able to stand against one of the Order's finest swordsmen. Labyrinth of Evil also notes that there were times when Count Dooku was also hard-pressed to outduel the cyborg. Hence Windu's later discussion to Obi-Wan Kenobi that Kenobi had "the best chance" to defeat Grievous, given his proficiency with the most simple of forms.



Where is the proof that he did not strike twenty times per second? Remember, according to Leeland Chee, speeds displayed in the movies do not contradict those in the EU just because they appear to be slower.

He struck twenty times per second, period - not twenty times with each hand as you stated before, so this is believable.

Originally posted by Faunus
He struck twenty times per second, period - not twenty times with each hand as you stated before, so this is believable.

You're right, my mistake. Each of his arms moved at five strikes per second.

not necessarily..
he could have used one arm twice (thrice, more?) in a row

So, it is still 20 per second anyway.