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We just got done watching transformers, so I started flipping through channels, and stopped on CBS. They're doing a special called "the lord's boot camp". The first sentence I heard was this:

"Everyone has a hole in their heart. Don't use these things to fill your hole."

That was a 14 year old girl speaking to pedestrians at a county fair. This has a terrifying (and, admittedly perverse) ring to it. It brought the movie "Jesus Camp" to mind.

Discuss.

(getting people through kids? how sad is that?)

Very.

More than that, it's getting kids through adults. Kids can't intellectually defend themselves, so indoctrination of any sort is easy to accomplish. Thus, camps like those from Jesus Camp produce the JIA's of the future (and those who are far worse).

I have a friend who's an atheist and his brother is Catholic. The parents are agnostic/atheist, and very informed non-theists. When the other son became Catholic, they supported him. It's a refreshing approach: here's what we believe and why, but you're free to search on your own without fear of family disappointment or negative repercussions. Not surprisingly, it was a group of over-zealous Christian prosthelytizers (according to my friend) that prodded him numerous times toward becoming a Catholic, even telling him people that he "shouldn't" hang out with because they were "bad influences." They did intervene at that point some, but it's a sad statement in general.

The overwhelmingly biggest stat that determines religion is what your parents are/were. Almost sickeningly so. If religion really was the cat's pajamas, they wouldn't need to covet their supposed stranglehold on the truth so tightly. It would thrive on its intellectual merits, not on hereditary inheritance.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
More than that, it's getting kids through adults. Kids can't intellectually defend themselves, so indoctrination of any sort is easy to accomplish. Thus, camps like those from Jesus Camp produce the JIA's of the future (and those who are far worse).

I have a friend who's an atheist and his brother is Catholic. The parents are agnostic/atheist, and very informed non-theists. When the other son became Catholic, they supported him. It's a refreshing approach: here's what we believe and why, but you're free to search on your own without fear of family disappointment or negative repercussions. Not surprisingly, it was a group of over-zealous Christian prosthelytizers (according to my friend) that prodded him numerous times toward becoming a Catholic, even telling him people that he "shouldn't" hang out with because they were "bad influences." They did intervene at that point some, but it's a sad statement in general.

The overwhelmingly biggest stat that determines religion is what your parents are/were. Almost sickeningly so. If religion really was the cat's pajamas, they wouldn't need to covet their supposed stranglehold on the truth so tightly. It would thrive on its intellectual merits, not on hereditary inheritance. my whole family is jewish and i was forced to go to hebrew school until my bar mitzvah. once i had my bar mitzvah i was done. i found the belief in god pointless. i saw no reason to be forced into what i didnt believe. no one i had met made a single strong argument for god and to this very day, i havent seen a good one yet. its faith this, and faith that, with no hard evidence to support anything. if they were trying to instill religion in me when i was young, they utterly failed

Originally posted by DigiMark007
More than that, it's getting kids through adults. Kids can't intellectually defend themselves, so indoctrination of any sort is easy to accomplish. Thus, camps like those from Jesus Camp produce the JIA's of the future (and those who are far worse).

I have a friend who's an atheist and his brother is Catholic. The parents are agnostic/atheist, and very informed non-theists. When the other son became Catholic, they supported him. It's a refreshing approach: here's what we believe and why, but you're free to search on your own without fear of family disappointment or negative repercussions. Not surprisingly, it was a group of over-zealous Christian prosthelytizers (according to my friend) that prodded him numerous times toward becoming a Catholic, even telling him people that he "shouldn't" hang out with because they were "bad influences." They did intervene at that point some, but it's a sad statement in general.

The overwhelmingly biggest stat that determines religion is what your parents are/were. Almost sickeningly so. If religion really was the cat's pajamas, they wouldn't need to covet their supposed stranglehold on the truth so tightly. It would thrive on its intellectual merits, not on hereditary inheritance.

I'm sorry a group of the other son's friends pushed him into becomming Catholics like them or a group of evangelicals pushed him into Catholicism, which obviously they wouldnt like?

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
I'm sorry a group of the other son's friends pushed him into becomming Catholics like them or a group of evangelicals pushed him into Catholicism, which obviously they wouldnt like?

He enjoys his faith...it was just a sketchy road to get there. Unfortunately (imo) the evangelical pushy people got their desire, though I doubt he talks with them much anymore (I don't have the entire story so I don't want to say for sure...I only know what gets related to me through my friend).

Still, that aside, his parents are examples of what I want to be like. I'm informed and will challenge my children's beliefs, and also explain my own, but won't feel wronged or disappointed if he/she goes a different direction, nor will I try to stop their natural progression and choices.

Originally posted by chickenlover98
my whole family is jewish and i was forced to go to hebrew school until my bar mitzvah. once i had my bar mitzvah i was done. i found the belief in god pointless. i saw no reason to be forced into what i didnt believe. no one i had met made a single strong argument for god and to this very day, i havent seen a good one yet. its faith this, and faith that, with no hard evidence to support anything. if they were trying to instill religion in me when i was young, they utterly failed

Maybe it's me, but I've known a lot of Jewish people who don't seem to believe devoutly, but remain part of Judaism primarily because it's a cultural tradition as much as (or even moreso) than a religious thing.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
He enjoys his faith...it was just a sketchy road to get there. Unfortunately (imo) the evangelical pushy people got their desire, though I doubt he talks with them much anymore (I don't have the entire story so I don't want to say for sure...I only know what gets related to me through my friend).

Where the Evans Catholic or Protestants?


Originally posted by DigiMark007
Still, that aside, his parents are examples of what I want to be like. I'm informed and will challenge my children's beliefs, and also explain my own, but won't feel wronged or disappointed if he/she goes a different direction, nor will I try to stop their natural progression and choices.

Yeah, its important to give people the freedom to discover themselves. I'm thankful that I found my faith and didn't have it given too me.

I actually consider myself fortunate because I've been on both sides of the fence. I can play Christian apologist surprisingly well (I did it for years), and know how emotionally satisfying and supportive a religion can be to someone, as well as the good it can engender in someone. And now I can provide many of the best and most lucid arguments against theistic, religious, and paranormal beliefs as well. But you're right, there's a sense of acheivement to finding one's beliefs on your own, rather than having them handed down.

Originally posted by DigiMark007


Maybe it's me, but I've known a lot of Jewish people who don't seem to believe devoutly, but remain part of Judaism primarily because it's a cultural tradition as much as (or even moreso) than a religious thing. ok, but the part i find interesting is it isnt so much a religion so much as a culture anymore. the teachings of the torah dont apply to everyday life, nor is there a punishment for disobeying them, at least to my understanding. i dont see whats to stop you from breaking the rules

Jbill311-

Did you watch the movie "Jesus Camp" in its entirety?

Originally posted by ushomefree
Jbill311-

Did you watch the movie "Jesus Camp" in its entirety?
Why do you ask?

It seems to me--based upon Jbill311's opening statement--that he is basing his entire view and/or thread on an excerpt of the movie "Jesus Camp." And what I propose, is that Jbill311, is being overly simplistic. I, myself, have seen the film, and the message--underlying the film--is deeper than "getting people through kids." I found certain aspects of the film disturbing, but it goes without saying: If Jbill311 did not watch the entire film, he has uninformed views--half the story. "How sad is that," Jbill311 stated later! No... what is sad, is, people like Jbill311 making misinformed conclusions about something they no nothing about. Can anyone back me on this?

Originally posted by ushomefree
It seems to me--based upon Jbill311's opening statement--that he is basing his entire view and/or thread on an excerpt of the movie "Jesus Camp." And what I propose, is that Jbill311, is being overly simplistic. I, myself, have seen the film, and the message--underlying the film--is deeper than "getting people through kids." I found certain aspects of the film disturbing, but it goes without saying: If Jbill311 did not watch the entire film, he has uninformed views--half the story. "How sad is that," Jbill311 stated later! No... what is sad, is, people like Jbill311 making misinformed conclusions about something they no nothing about. Can anyone back me on this?

100%

If he didn't watch the video all the way and then made those comments then he is ignorant indeed.

Originally posted by ushomefree
It seems to me--based upon Jbill311's opening statement--that he is basing his entire view and/or thread on an excerpt of the movie "Jesus Camp." And what I propose, is that Jbill311, is being overly simplistic. I, myself, have seen the film, and the message--underlying the film--is deeper than "getting people through kids." I found certain aspects of the film disturbing, but it goes without saying: If Jbill311 did not watch the entire film, he has uninformed views--half the story. "How sad is that," Jbill311 stated later! No... what is sad, is, people like Jbill311 making misinformed conclusions about something they no nothing about. Can anyone back me on this? I watched it all. 4 times. I forward the sentiment that what the people do is sick and stupid. I am sorry, but I didn't see any merits in that movie. I saw bright kids that got indoctrinated, scared and unreasonably shielded from the real world to create clones of their parents.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I watched it all. 4 times. I forward the sentiment that what the people do is sick and stupid. I am sorry, but I didn't see any merits in that movie. I saw bright kids that got indoctrinated, scared and unreasonably shielded from the real world to create clones of their parents.

I have also seen the film several times in its entirety

I see nothing in it that reflects the Christian faith positively, and much that appears to border on child abuse.

I watched the entire film twice. The excerpt that you noticed was from a television special, which reminded me of that movie. I found nothing in the film which improved my opinion of the Christian faith, and very little in the television program.

I saw Jesus Camp twice.

Its ****ed up,sick people.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Maybe it's me, but I've known a lot of Jewish people who don't seem to believe devoutly, but remain part of Judaism primarily because it's a cultural tradition as much as (or even moreso) than a religious thing.
I identify with the main holidays of Judaism; it's what I grew up with. I identify with Judaism's history, specifically, how a relatively small group of people have thrived and influenced the course of civilization despite millenia of persecution and attempted extermination. I also identify with the ethics/values of Judaism; I particularly like how Rabbi Hillel (he was almost a contemporary of Jesus) summarized it: "What you don't like, don't do to anyone else. Everything else is commentary."

I was also raised to ask questions, including about my faith. Judaism (especially the nonOrthodox) encourages questions. The only given is God's absolute existence.

On the other hand, I haven't stepped inside a temple in years. I'm more like a Zen Buddhist practicing zazen, and I adhere to a personal view of transcendent reality.

Originally posted by Mindship
I identify with the main holidays of Judaism; it's what I grew up with. I identify with Judaism's history, specifically, how a relatively small group of people have thrived and influenced the course of civilization despite millenia of persecution and attempted extermination. I also identify with the ethics/values of Judaism; I particularly like how Rabbi Hillel (he was almost a contemporary of Jesus) summarized it: "What you don't like, don't do to anyone else. Everything else is commentary."

I was also raised to ask questions, including about my faith. Judaism (especially the nonOrthodox) encourages questions. The only given is God's absolute existence.

On the other hand, I haven't stepped inside a temple in years. I'm more like a Zen Buddhist practicing zazen, and I adhere to a personal view of transcendent reality. i find your beliefs interesting, would you mind ellaborating?

Originally posted by chickenlover98
...would you mind ellaborating? Not at all, but please be more specific, otherwise I'll lapse into rambling pontification.

Originally posted by Mindship
Not at all, but please be more specific, otherwise I'll lapse into rambling pontification.

I like it when a person knows their own limitations.