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who wins?

The team take the cup.

I'm a bit annoyed that one of them had to die though, but obviously you think that Sids is too good not to take at least one of them down. I'd have to say that Luke takes the fall though, him being the self-sacrifing kind.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
The team take the cup.

I'm a bit annoyed that one of them had to die though, but obviously you think that Sids is too good not to take at least one of them down. I'd have to say that Luke takes the fall though, him being the self-sacrifing kind.

saber wise how do the duo stand?

Both are of a supremely high calibur of duelist. DE Luke alone was able to perform admirably against DE Sids, but failed without help. However, with the added effect of 'moved so fast that time stood still' Bane, the Duo are sufficient to take Sids WAY downtown.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Both are of a supremely high calibur of duelist. DE Luke alone was able to perform admirably against DE Sids, but failed without help. However, with the added effect of 'moved so fast that time stood still' Bane, the Duo are sufficient to take Sids WAY downtown.

ok i see your point and its a good one

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Both are of a supremely high calibur of duelist. DE Luke alone was able to perform admirably against DE Sids, but failed without help. However, with the added effect of 'moved so fast that time stood still' Bane, the Duo are sufficient to take Sids WAY downtown.


Good point

Cheer's

The duo will likely win, although one of them- if not both of them- will get severely injured/die in the course of the fight. Lotsa people seem to severely underestimate Sidious, so I'll put it in a nutshell; Sidious, by Revenge of the Sith (I rarely read comics, btw... Sidious resurrecting just sux, although he's my favorite villain. C'mon, where's the chosen one thing?), was the strongest Sith Lord in history, and- say what people might say- he successfully stalemated/beat Yoda (it depends on your point of view), and as I doubt Luke reached Yoda or even Obi-Wan-level strength by DE, yeah... and remember Sidious beat him faster than he beat Kit Fisto ... that's something. He woulda pwned him if it wasn't for some stupid battle meditation thing.

Now to Bane... Bane is arguably the strongest Sith Lord after Sidious (I'd say he probably has strength similar to suited Vader or Dooku... possibly higher), so, he would stand a chance. But, as Sidious is the strongest Sith Lord in history (etc, etc, etc...), he'd pwn Bane in 1 on 1.

The rest remains to see if Bane has his orbalisks or doesn't have them... if he does, one shot of force lightning (which Sidious likes to open fights with) and he's toast. Now, Luke's killed after a short fight and then Bane is finished off. If he doesn't have his orbalisks... Sidious will probably succeed in beating and killing one of them/injuring the other, but they ultimately take it.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
I doubt Luke reached Yoda or even Obi-Wan-level strength by DE, yeah... and remember Sidious beat him faster than he beat Kit Fisto ... that's something. He woulda pwned him if it wasn't for some stupid battle meditation thing.

He pwned him faster than he pwnd Fisto? I doubt it, that means battle meditation made Luke like 10 times as strong as he normally is, and if battle meditation done by someone who isn't even a Jedi (Leia) is that powerful, Kit would have just used battle meditation during the Mace and Sidious duel and Mace would have pwnd him. Also note that DE Sidious is more powerful than ROTS Sidious. In DE Luke also disabled a group of battle droids with merely a wave of his hand, and he also easily destroyed an AT-AT using the Force. He's probably near Yoda's level at least.



Why? Just because lightning can hurt Bane through his Orbalisks doesn't mean that he has no defense against it. He could probably just block it with his lightsaber for a second or 2 until Luke attacks Sidious. And if he doesn't have his Orbalisk armor, the chances of him getting hit with the lightning are just as great, and the lightning hurts the Orbalisk wearer despite the Orbalisks, but I don't believe it does more damage that lightning does to somebody without Orbalisks. Forgive me if I am wrong as I haven't read RoT yet.

I was referring to their original battle in the Cloning Labs... the Battle Meditation Duel was a classic Good Guy vs. Bad Guy fight (bad guy more powerful, good guy wins because of the 'force of good') so it was completely crap. xD. Well, DE is in its entirety quite a load of bullshit, but w/e... it's canon, so we gotta accept it.

Bane's orbalisks make him extremely vulnerable to lightning, as you could note that during a battle he had with a group of jedi, one of them reflected the lightning back at him, resulting in Bane frying, being poisoned and ALMOST dying... little Zannah saved him. And, Bane, despite being the most powerful sith of his age, was still one of the so-called 'old sith' of the Brotherhood Era. And as Yoda noted during the novelization of his fight versus Sidious- which, incidentally, depicts Sidious wiping the floor with Yoda- the Sith, over the last millenia, evolved, and grew more powerful... for that reason, I think a burst of full-powered lightning from Sidious is sufficient to take Bane down, unless I'm severely underestimating him.

During ROTS, Sidious was immensely powerful and the strongest Sith Lord ever. It's obivious that his stronger and even more uber godly incarnation will be miles ahead of the competition. Really, as Sidious' lightning as of ROTS was strong enough to throw YODA'S, yes, YODA'S lightsaber out of his hand, and as Luke is only almost as strong as Yoda at best, Sidious could apply the same strategy; fry Bane, and put a red stick through Luke's head. It's just that DE Sidious will have a much easier time of doing that...

Note that if they both advance to lightsaber range, or Bane somehow blocks the lightning, they'll probably win against ROTS Sidious, and still win against DE Sidious.

You do know that Bane can just block Sidious's lightning with his saber. Also note that even if he doesn't then he's still not totally out. When the orbalisk's die they release a shitload of toxin's into the body, But.... by the end of POD Bane has already shown the ability to destroy all poisons and toxin's.

Also note that Bane has some damn powerful Lightning as well, with plenty of other neat tricks and Luke as of DE is probably just worse than DE Sids forcewise. In a force fight they also win.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Luke as of DE is probably just worse than DE Sids forcewise. In a force fight they also win.

Lol. In the only fair fight Sidious and Luke actually had during the whole Star Wars saga, Sidious defeated Luke in the shortest lightsaber duel ever. What happened in the lightsaber duel was that Sidious engaged Luke in a saberlock, and then knocked his lightsaber away. That's it. It was arguably shorter, as I've stated before, as his 'fight' against Kit Fisto, then that would mean that Luke is like Kit Fisto (or maybe higher...) in terms of lightsaber skills compared to DE Sidious. Sure, Luke was powerful- he beat Vader, who managed to kill countless Jedi even in his suited state- but DE Sidious is just insanely overpowered, to the point that he can completely overwhelm Luke in a fair lightsaber duel.

It should be noted that both Bane and Luke employed the same form of lightsaber combat- Djem So, so comparing their masteries of lightsaber skills is all the more easy. I'd say Bane is probably slightly more skilled than Luke- after all, except for Kas'im, he was probably the strongest lightsaber duelists of his age, as exampled by his defeat of a friggin' Jedi LORD along with some other Jedi, making him exceptionally powerful... he would probably give ROTS Sidious somewhat of a challenge in lightsaber combat- though he'd still get beaten- and DE Sidious could comfortably beat him. Combining these two people, they may be strong enough to beat ROTS Sidious, but DE Sidious... he'll beat them, but after a long fight.

As for the Force Lightning struggle, Sidious' mastery of force lightning is so unparalleled that he successfully disintergrated Leia's lightsaber from a shot of lightning. That's impressive to say, the least. If it gets into a 'lightning struggle' (imagine how cool that would be... ), Sidious will almost certainly win, and Bane will be defenseless. The orbalisks amplify the effect of lightning on him, similar to a suited Vader, and even if he is capable of purging the venom out of his system, the lightning could still put him out of fighting condition. Meanwhile, Sidious puts a lightsaber through Master Skywalker, and down goes the fight.

Of course, if the team would cooperate, it would be possible- with self sacrifice, of course- for Bane to distract Sidious with lightning and subsequently have Luke saber him. But other than that option, I see no way that Sidious will be defeated, between his mastery of the force (established as the greatest among all Sith Lords) and his lightsaber skills (sufficient to make a Kit Fisto out of Luke).

Luke only won the subsequent fight because of his power being amplified through the force by Leia and little Ben. If that didn't happen, Skywalker would be losing his head, and Sidious would rule the galaxy =P.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
I was referring to their original battle in the Cloning Labs... the Battle Meditation Duel was a classic Good Guy vs. Bad Guy fight (bad guy more powerful, good guy wins because of the 'force of good') so it was completely crap. xD. Well, DE is in its entirety quite a load of bullshit, but w/e... it's canon, so we gotta accept it.

Bane's orbalisks make him extremely vulnerable to lightning, as you could note that during a battle he had with a group of jedi, one of them reflected the lightning back at him, resulting in Bane frying, being poisoned and ALMOST dying... little Zannah saved him. And, Bane, despite being the most powerful sith of his age, was still one of the so-called 'old sith' of the Brotherhood Era. And as Yoda noted during the novelization of his fight versus Sidious- which, incidentally, depicts Sidious wiping the floor with Yoda- the Sith, over the last millenia, evolved, and grew more powerful... for that reason, I think a burst of full-powered lightning from Sidious is sufficient to take Bane down, unless I'm severely underestimating him.

During ROTS, Sidious was immensely powerful and the strongest Sith Lord ever. It's obivious that his stronger and even more uber godly incarnation will be miles ahead of the competition. Really, as Sidious' lightning as of ROTS was strong enough to throw YODA'S, yes, YODA'S lightsaber out of his hand, and as Luke is only almost as strong as Yoda at best, Sidious could apply the same strategy; fry Bane, and put a red stick through Luke's head. It's just that DE Sidious will have a much easier time of doing that...

Note that if they both advance to lightsaber range, or Bane somehow blocks the lightning, they'll probably win against ROTS Sidious, and still win against DE Sidious.
1. yes a blast from Sidious's lightning would probably kill bane if it lasted a couple seconds, however, why couldn't Bane just block it with his lightsaber.
2. Oh wow, Sidious's lightning threw Yoda's saber out of his hands, big deal. Yoda is about 100 times weaker than bane physically and he was holding his lightsaber with one hand. mace blocked Sidious's lightning with his saber and yeah, DE Sidious is a bit more powerful than ROTS Sidious but Bane is way stronger than maceis physically so he could block it with his lightsaber.
3. Luke didn't get pwnd in the Cloning Labs, he actually Force Pushed Sidious into a wall during the fight. Luke lost yes but he didn't get pwned.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
You do know that Bane can just block Sidious's lightning with his saber.

Doubt it. This was the guy who, decades earlier, was able to almost make Mace "I can pwn seismic battle tanks and armies of super battle droids, as well as Kar Vastor, with my bare hands" Windu swallow his own lightsaber, despite the fact that Sidious was on his ass and Windu had the superior position. He can also disarm Yoda without visible effort, 'WTFpwnz0rs!!1!' fifty stormtroopers, disintegrate three Sith acolytes, and mortally wound Jedi Knights even while on his death bed, "barely able to walk" and where each further usage of the Force brought him closer to death.



I suppose Rule of Two Bane completely forgot that knowledge, because if memory serves, he was in fact put into a coma at the end of the novel by such a move.

Originally posted by darthsith19
1. yes a blast from Sidious's lightning would probably kill bane if it lasted a couple seconds, however, why couldn't Bane just block it with his lightsaber.

Like I clarified, Sidious' successfully DISINTERGRATED a lightsaber with a jolt of force lightning, something I didn't see anyone else do... not even Bane. It's not a question of physical strength, and unless someone's going to pull off a strange force power that can shield items, Bane is not going to be able to block an assault from Sidious. He dies. Oh, by the way, Bane's strength was almost purely from physical prowess, while he, like Anakin, used the force somewhat to power his Djem So strikes. Yoda uses PURELY the force to cause him to be extremely strong and fast, and as we've seen numerous times in the past, force > brawn. Though of course it all does not matter, considering Bane's lightsaber won't exist after about 2 seconds.

Originally posted by darthsith19
3. Luke didn't get pwnd in the Cloning Labs, he actually Force Pushed Sidious into a wall during the fight. Luke lost yes but he didn't get pwned.

Great. He pushed Sidious on the wall... now what? That means Sidious must have lost! No. Sidious calmly got up and played a little mind game with Luke, lunged at him, and after ONE saberlock, bye-bye Luke lightsaber. This is what I call pwned, as it reduced Luke to a little watchdog... yes, Luke, who resisted his own FATHER telling him to join the dark side. Evidently he was pwned, and he knew it.

I think Bane's effort's were hindered slightly by his being unconcious at the time. It's a slim chance but worth throwing it out there.



Bane is undoubtably stronger than Mace. The very fact of his being so powerful in the force would make this so. This is also combined with his life as a miner, his Sith training and the orbalisk's which magnify his already formidable attributes.

So Mace can puch through droids. Kenobi himself did something similar to this and Bane is about 100 times as strong as him




The lightsaber in question was, like, 4000 year's old, in very bad repair and being weilded by the supremely incompetant Leia. She was holding it all wrong and putting all the pressure on the hilt, not a mistake that Bane is likely to make.



To clarify, the orbalisk's don't 'amplify the effect of the lightning'. At one point Bane get's hit by 6 electrostaff's each of which could fry a bantha and which combined generate in excess of a Million volts. It is a testamount to Bane's force strength that he killed all of his own orbalisks and knocked himself out.



A very tired, old and suprised Yoda who was only holding on to it with one hand.



Bane's force storm (as seen in POD) could probably do the same.



Sith acolytes arn't exactly known for their vitility.




*Shrugs* Freedon Nadd can attack a Jedi master half a galaxy away depite being Dead. That top's Sids I think.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Bane is undoubtably stronger than Mace. The very fact of his being so powerful in the force would make this so. This is also combined with his life as a miner, his Sith training and the orbalisk's which magnify his already formidable attributes.

Oh? Bane is stronger than Mace? Are you referring to physical strength, or being 'stronger' than Mace in the force, lightsaber combat, etc... if it's the latter, you're mistaken, but yes, he is physically stronger than Mace.

However, physical strength isn't the matter- Vader, whose physical skills were at the very least equal to Bane's in terms of strength, was cowed by notion that Sidious would zap him. Why? Doesn't HE have a lightsaber? Couldn't he potentially block Sidious' lightning, if he was really quite so strong? Physical strength is NOT the matter.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
The lightsaber in question was, like, 4000 year's old, in very bad repair and being weilded by the supremely incompetant Leia. She was holding it all wrong and putting all the pressure on the hilt, not a mistake that Bane is likely to make.

Oh? The supermely incompetent Leia just happens to be the chosen one's daughter, and although I agree that she was not nearly as strong as Bane, that DOES NOT MATTER. It won't matter how you hold a lightsaber; her lightsaber wasn't tossed from her hand. It was disintergrated. That means that the lightsaber itself was DESTROYED, something that has nothing whatsoever to do with the way the lightsaber is handled. It's just an indication of how powerful the actual lightning was... damnit, Bane could nto have made anything different regarding this. He can't block the lightning with his saber, and Sidious' superior power (confirmed by multiple canon sources) will allow him to overwhelm Bane if he attempts to deflect it.



Originally posted by Darth Exodus
To clarify, the orbalisk's don't 'amplify the effect of the lightning'. At one point Bane get's hit by 6 electrostaff's each of which could fry a bantha and which combined generate in excess of a Million volts. It is a testamount to Bane's force strength that he killed all of his own orbalisks and knocked himself out.

Bane did not kill his own orbalisks, what are you talking about? Could you please clarify on that? The orbalisks do not directly amplify the effects of the lightning, but the poison released by them would be more than capable of severely damaging Bane- even if he is able to eventually heal it, it will likely take sometime, and seeing as Luke will probably be quickly dispatched, Bane will die. And besides, the effect of a lethal burst of lightning was seen numerous times, and ended mostly in the death of the poor Jedi on the receiving end.



Originally posted by Darth Exodus
A very tired, old and suprised Yoda who was only holding on to it with one hand.

Will people decide if Yoda is to be underestimated or over estimated? Half the time he's hailed as the strongest Jedi ever who WTFPWNED Sidious (false), the other half, he's a weak little green man who can jump like a crazy muppet. Yoda is EXTREMELY strong, probably stronger than Bane (not physical strength), and by the way... for some reason, I don't think Mace was expecting the lightning. He blocked, didn't he? Although Sdious MIGHT not have been going all out on him... but, anyway, Yoda is strong and his grip on the lightsaber is also strong... that means, I seriously doubt that Bane would perform so much better.



Originally posted by Darth Exodus
*Shrugs* Freedon Nadd can attack a Jedi master half a galaxy away depite being Dead. That top's Sids I think.

No, it doesn't... when you're dead, but remain as a force ghost, you're omnipotent. You can do things (non-physical) beyond the imagination of 'normal' people- as Obi-Wan said, "If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine." Yeah. Sidious was near-death, meaning that he could master a fraction of his power, tops, but he rather effortlessly fried some mid-tier Jedi. And what the hell does Freedon Nadd have to do with this discussion?

Exodus you do know when the 5 force pikes hit him he was forced onto his knees and was very vulnerable for a short period of time in which a more experience opponent would not likely let him have the chance to recover as the assassins did.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
I think Bane's effort's were hindered slightly by his being unconcious at the time. It's a slim chance but worth throwing it out there.

Let's not take events out of context: Bane's own lightning electrocuted him, knocked him unconscious, and caused the orbalisks to release venom into his body. In short, he is grossly susceptible to Force lightning and there is nothing to indicate that the Emperor's Sith lightning would do anything but have the same effect.



Substantiate and prove this. Palpatine was stronger in the Force than Mace, but was unable to overpower the Jedi Master in the lightsaber locks. Kenobi was more powerful in the Force than General Grievous, but was unable to compete with the cyborg's physical attributes.



Correction: Windu managed to destroy an army of super battle droids with his bare hands and defeat a seismic battle tank. Furthermore, when did Kenobi replicate such a feat? And substantiate and prove Bane is "100 times" as powerful as Kenobi.



The Emperor used the Force to disintegrate the lightsaber. Why would he not be able to do the same thing to a newer model? Furthermore, prove that Leia was "holding it all wrong and putting pressure on the hilt" and -- once you've done that -- prove how that would allow Palpatine to disintegrate it.



Yoda is capable of summoning the Force to increase his strength to ridiculous levels. Prove that Yoda was fatigued or surprised (since he had enough time to do an uber combat pose) or that his age played a factor.



Prove and substantiate this.



While I appreciate the lawyer's approach, you're no Alan Shore or Sebastian Stark (Perry Mason and Matlock are laughing at you). These acolytes were proficient in Sith alchemy, which according to the Dark Side Sourcebook requires considerable power to use. And Palpatine was able to reduce three of them to charred skeletons with lightning from one hand. Consider the damage done to Palpatine's own face in Revenge of the Sith and Luke Skywalker's subsequent injuries after Return of the Jedi (his bones suffered from calcification and he was extremely weakened even days after). This requires extremely potent energy.



Well, you'll understand if the rest of us don't put a great deal of stock into what you think. Nadd's accomplishments, even as dead, are considerable. But they exactly compare. When Leia Organa Solo visited Endor, she was knocked unconscious due to the energies of the Force emitted by Palpatine at his death. This is a person with Skywalker vitality and Force defense. That trumps anything Nadd's done.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Like I clarified, Sidious' successfully DISINTERGRATED a lightsaber with a jolt of force lightning, something I didn't see anyone else do... not even Bane.

He disintegrated Yoda's lightsaber? I wasn't aware of that, to me it looked like it just flew out of Yoda's hands, not got destroyed. Are you sure about that, cause maybe I'll have to watch that scene again if you are sure.


It isn't? It looked like Mace was using physical strength when he was holding off Sidious's Force Lightning.

Mybe not ll of Sidious's assaults, but I still see no reason why he couldn't block lightning with his saber; Mace did it, so it can be done and doesn't disintegrate lightsabers.


Why not? Mace's did, why not Bane's? And, so far as I could tell, Yoda's was never destroyed, it just got knocked out of his one hand and got lost in the depths of the Great Rotunda. And, Bane beat Kas'im with a Force Power, he learned lots of tricks from Revan, and brute Force does work. It worked when he beat Sirak both times, oh and he killed Fohargh using the Force. He killed Qordis using the Force. He attacked the army of light by using his and the rest of the Brotherhood's powers combined and unleashing a super powerful Force attack on them. So yeah he does use the Force to fight, too.










Hmm, I can't remember the duel that well but it seems like if Luke could land a blow on Sidious at all, he shouldn't be pwned by him so quickly. It'd be like if Kit Force Pushed Sidious into a wall and then was killed like he was.

Bane is both stronger physically and with the force, he was able to pretty much destroy half a planet after all.



Vader was scared of attacking Sidious because sids was stronger than him in the force and was a better duelist than himself. Also, the guy has the galaxy in his pocket, lot's of assassin's and know's all of Vader's weaknesses (his chest)



When people block Sith lightning they do it with the blade, not the hilt. If sidious was able to hit the hilt then Leia was obviously holding it wrong. The age of it would make it much more frial than it might well have been and easier to disintergrate.



1) The cartoons vastly overpowered the character's and I doubt wether they actually count as cannon sources.
2) Kenobi riped GG's chest apart.
3) I was exaggerating. But Bane is stronger.




Yoda had just had the toughest duel of his life, had been knocked out and had chucked a senate pod around. The guy pants just from walking, I thought it was pretty obvious that he'd be tired.



The space that Bane conjured the storm in was capable of housing hundreds of students, so he could logically create a storm large enough to electrocute fifty.


crap, run out of time.

Originally posted by darthsith19
He disintegrated Yoda's lightsaber? I wasn't aware of that, to me it looked like it just flew out of Yoda's hands, not got destroyed. Are you sure about that, cause maybe I'll have to watch that scene again if you are sure.

No, in Dark Empire, he disintergrated Leia's lightsaber. That's something beyond the movies, so yeah... XD.


Originally posted by darthsith19
It isn't? It looked like Mace was using physical strength when he was holding off Sidious's Force Lightning.

And the novel showed Mace being completely overpowered, until Sidious stopped the attack at the last second. Why did he? Who knows. And besides, it's completely irrelevant, since it's down to the simple power of the lightning, rather than the strength of its user.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Mybe not ll of Sidious's assaults, but I still see no reason why he couldn't block lightning with his saber; Mace did it, so it can be done and doesn't disintegrate lightsabers.

There's a reason that it's "DE Sidious", and not "ROTS Sidious"... if this was ROTS Sidious, the argument would've been entirely different, and ROTS Sidious would likely lose... not by a lot, but probably lose after killing/injuring one of them.


Originally posted by darthsith19
Why not? Mace's did, why not Bane's? And, so far as I could tell, Yoda's was never destroyed, it just got knocked out of his one hand and got lost in the depths of the Great Rotunda. And, Bane beat Kas'im with a Force Power, he learned lots of tricks from Revan, and brute Force does work. It worked when he beat Sirak both times, oh and he killed Fohargh using the Force. He killed Qordis using the Force. He attacked the army of light by using his and the rest of the Brotherhood's powers combined and unleashing a super powerful Force attack on them. So yeah he does use the Force to fight, too.

As multiple canon sources confirmed, there is little to debate regarding the fact that 'Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord ever', and by that indication, it's fairly obivious that he is also stronger int the force than Bane. Strong as he was with the force, I see no way he uses one of these uber force waves to overcome Sidious before the lightning hits him... if Kas'im blocked it, then it's obivious Sidious can. Kas'im wasn't even a specialist in force powers- he was a weaponmaster- and yet he blocked a wave of force capable of reducing him to Twi'lek milkshake. Sidious is stronger than Kas'im, so logic says that he would also be capable of blocking Bane's strongest attack.


Originally posted by darthsith19
Hmm, I can't remember the duel that well but it seems like if Luke could land a blow on Sidious at all, he shouldn't be pwned by him so quickly. It'd be like if Kit Force Pushed Sidious into a wall and then was killed like he was.

Exactly. Imagine the following scenario; Kit Fisto comes to arrest Sidious, Sidious just grabs a lightsaber, and Kit pushes him. Sidious loses balance, quickly springs back to his legs, and kill Kit in two blows. I would call that 'pwned', wouldn't you? And Luke just happened to push Sidious seconds after the guy just resurrected/reanimated himself in a new clone body. I won't call it a 'fair blow', if it was in the middle of combat, I'm confident Sidious would avoid it.

Once again, I appreciate the lawyer's maneuver, trying to exploit a loophole, but once again -- you're no Alan Shore or Sebastian Stark. According to the Clone Wars commentary, George Lucas said that the events and abilities depicted therein were "exactly what imagine" real Jedi to be, one man armies and capable of extremely potent attacks with the Force that, for obvious reasons, cannot be replicated on cinema.



He pulled the chest cavity apart, something entirely different than punching one's fist through scores and scores of supremely durable battle droids.



Based on what? That he looks bigger?



This doesn't cut it, Darth Exodus. Yoda's incredibly advanced years and weakened physiology make him rely totally on the Force for such maneuvers, which is exactly what he did. That he pants while he walks is no indication that he would be equally fatigued during a lightsaber duel with "the Force as his ally". You must prove that he was fatigued when Darth Sidious relieved him of his lightsaber.



Please. I doubt it is in your best interest to argue 'size' in any arena; we're discussing potency. Prove that Bane's Force lightning could annihilate fifty stormtroopers or disintegrate three Sith acolytes.

Bane already demonstrated the ability to turn living beings to ash with his lightning.

Before they even hit the ground he'd turned his attention to the third opponent, unleashing a storm of Sith lightning that reduced the riders to ash and the drexl into a hunk of charred and smoking flesh that dropped from the sky.

It'd be up to you prove that the acolytes were, at the time, putting up some sort of defense for Sidious to have to fight through, because just being Force-sensitive doesn't make one naturally resistant to Force-based attacks.

I'll look into it.

In the meantime, what were those riders? Were they human? Alien? Force sensitive? Trained Force users (like the acolytes)? How many of them were there?

The beast-riders, Escape. All human, non-Force-sensitive, and there were three. Outside of that little confrontation, there were eight others, all distributed amongst three other drexl.

Edit: For the record, I voted for Palpatine.

Originally posted by Faunus


It'd be up to you prove that the acolytes were, at the time, putting up some sort of defense for Sidious to have to fight through, because just being Force-sensitive doesn't make one naturally resistant to Force-based attacks. Thats a good point, but its not like sidious despite his immense strength of the force can't shatter their force defences(assuming they put them up) seeing that bane was able to do so in path of destruction.

Its what i think it is but please don't bash me for it.

Originally posted by Ivalice
Thats a good point, but its not like sidious despite his immense strength of the force can't shatter their force defences(assuming they put them up) seeing that bane was able to do so in path of destruction.'Course he could have. They were low-level Dark-siders, and by then he's "the most powerful Sith in history." I was just pointing out that it's a feat Bane replicated, and the fact that Sidious did it to Force-users - who weren't shown puttin gup any defenses - doesn't necessarily make it all that more impressive than doing it to regular beings.
Ooookay.

I wouldn't exactly say that they are low level dark siders considering that the dark empire source book stated that it takes considerable power to utilise sith alchemy. I think gideon has that quote since i don't have the DESB

Originally posted by Ivalice
I wouldn't exactly say that they are low level dark siders considering that the dark empire source book stated that it takes considerable power to utilise sith alchemy. I think gideon has that quote since i don't have the DESB

Dark Side Sourcebook. I can have the quote to you by Monday, or if we're really lucky, later on today. I'm having no luck finding the comic where Darth Vader fought Darth Maul (which is where Sidious disintegrated those three Prophets).

He probably stopped because half his face had been burnt off. That tend's to stop me.



No, based on the fact that he's spent his entire life doing extremely hard physical exercise/labour, he was described as 'a mountain of muscle', he was much stronger with the force than Mace (which helps) and that the orbalisk's increase his already potent strength and force power. Also, Mace is older so would have to draw on the force more to maintain maximum strength.




Oh, a penis joke. How mature.




Contrary to what you (desparately) hope, size does matter. If Bane can create a lightning storm large enough to encapsulate 50 stormtrooper's in its effects then they would all feel the same amount of power. As Faunus kindly pointed out in his (excellent) post, Bane does have the power to disintergrate his opponants. If he can do that then it stand's to reason that he can produce a storm with the power to merely kill 50 trooper's. The possibility of chain lightning might also play a factor but as a whole most things that get hit by lightning, especially with the killing power that Bane has displayed, die fairly quickly.

Also, would it be possible for you to find the page where Palps kills his own troops in such a display. I want to know the circumstances etc.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Why do you constantly refuse to accept the fact that multiple canon sources- including GL himself- have clarified Sidious as the strongest-sith-lord-ever by ROTS.I'd like to see those. The only statement I'm aware of that hails Palpatine as the most powerful as of RotS is the NEC, and that's from the perspective of a fallible, in-universe character. Now, Death Star is pretty clear about him being the most powerful Sith in history (which is stupid), but that's about twenty years later. By RotS, I believe he's confirmed as the "culmination" of everything gathered by Bane's order.
Um, you need to back this up. Not only did the "strongest" remark also come from a fallible, in-universe character (not that I'm arguing it), but nothing is ever mentioned in regards to anything but his acquired Force power and knowledge. Now, it's pretty clear that he's an extremely skilled duelist, thanks in no part to his advanced Force mastery, and against most Sith Lords it would appear that he would hold the advantage, but you need to avoid blanket statements like that, especially when they aren't explicitly stated. For example, Kas'im was noted by the omniscient narrator to be possibly the best swordsman who'd ever lived. That's conclusive. Palpatine was noted by the omniscient narrator in Death Star to be the most powerful Sith who'd ever lived. That's conclusive.

With all due respect, Faunus, we've been down this road before. Those, in the past, who have challenged the statements issued by the New Essential Chronology also seem to champion quotes made by other fallible, in-universe characters, such as Kreia. That isn't how it works. Most people subscribed to the idea that all of the Ancient Sith > KotOR era Force users because Kreia once said that the Ancient Sith would make the combatants of her generation look like children playing with toys, but we took it into consideration because she is a Sith historian. That said, the New Essential Chronology represent the research of a highly specialized team of historians with the resources of a galactic superpower at their disposal, which would indicate even more credibility than we can associate with Traya.

Originally posted by Gideon
With all due respect, Faunus, we've been down this road before. Those, in the past, who have challenged the statements issued by the New Essential Chronology also seem to champion quotes made by other fallible, in-universe characters, such as Kreia. That isn't how it works. Most people subscribed to the idea that all of the Ancient Sith > KotOR era Force users because Kreia once said that the Ancient Sith would make the combatants of her generation look like children playing with toys, but we took it into consideration because she is a Sith historian. That said, the New Essential Chronology represent the research of a highly specialized team of historians with the resources of a galactic superpower at their disposal, which would indicate even more credibility than we can associate with Traya.I'm not talking about Traya; I'm talking about the NEC, and while the in-universe character responsible for that statement is obviously extremely well-informed, considering he knows about Marka Ragnos and God knows who else, he is not qualified to make a conclusive, blanket statement on the power of a certain Force-sensitive individual in comparison to another.

And again, I'm not refuting that by the OT period, Sidious is the most powerful Sith there ever was, even though I think it's a stupid idea (blanket statement = fail). But as of RotS it doesn't appear to be the case.

For the record, the Death Star quote, just like all of the quotes on the matter, is miles from being conclusive.

"Vader could sense the hostility of some of the men behind Tarkin, but that was of no importance. Hostile words or actions he could and would deal with, but thoughts of the weak-minded were no threat.
Tarkin, oily and smooth as always, was a man who knew where his best interests lay, and as long as his own plans matched those of the Emperor, he was a useful tool. Which was good, because Vader would not hesitate to use that tool.

The Rebels were turning out to be more troublesome than many had expected. The Emperor had known it would be thus, of course; the resistance had not been a surprise to him. The Emperor was completely in concert with the dark side of the Force. He was the most powerful Sith who had ever existed.

As would Vader be, someday.

But that was in the future. Now he had more mundane duties. There were problems with the construction of this station. When Vader left, those problems would be corrected. He would return as necessary to correct more troubles as they appeared, and he would also return at times when things were proceeding smoothly, just to remind Tarkin and his senior officers that the Emperor's eye was always watching them.
Always."

Firstly, it's stated that "The Emperor was completely in concert with the dark side of the Force," meaning he worked completely in accordance with the darkside, and that every action he took was with the the dark side's best wishes at heart. That being said, such dedication, from one perspective, can be seen as what made him "the most powerful Sith who had ever existed," as it meant that he went to lengths that no other Sith would, to ensure the success of both the dark side, and the Sith. That doesn't make him the most powerful, from a combat standpoint, however, which is all that matters in a thread like this.


...and if people still wish to argue against that (which would be stupid, as everything I've said is absolutely correct, and no valid case can be made against it), there's also the fact that it's highly likely that the statement itself is being indirectly voiced by a fallible character (Vader) rather than actually by the omniscient narrator, and I say this because not only does the passage constantly refer to Vader's thoughts and perceptions and stuff in general that is very specific to him, but the exact statement in question: "He was the most powerful Sith who had ever existed," is directly followed by "As would Vader be, someday." If we were to assume that this is all coming from the omniscient narrator, then we would be forced to subscribe to the idea that Vader eventually did become the most powerful Sith there had ever been, and by extension more powerful than Sidious, which, no matter how you look at it (economical power, political power, military power, social power, power in combat... whatever), makes no sense whatsoever.

Hello, Nebaris.



But I am, because it is an example of the many times where we have all placed great faith in the statement made by a fallible third party. Unless you mean to tell me that you never did, which might be the case, as I can't recall.



The chronology was written by Voren Na'al, who is the head of a council of historians for the Galactic Alliance, a galactic superpower. We put stock in Kreia's blanket statements, as well as those of others, but this guy curbstomps Traya in terms of credibility and resources, so since Sidious has demonstrate feats and other sources corroborate the chronology, why can't we agree?



I know, and Sidious isn't the only one provided for a blanket statement, Yoda has had them, as has Ragnos. But I'm more or less disagreeing with the logic that you use.

Damn... that was a very good point. I never really thought about it like that, but you're right, the room was capable of housing hundreds of students, and the storm was described as "filling" the room, meaning it encompassed the vast majority of the room.

And only an hour after Bane had first learnt how to summon lightning at that.

And to think that some people believe that Obi-wan Kenobi can take him on!!!!

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
And to think that some people believe that Obi-wan Kenobi can take him on!!!!

Funny. Obi-Wan's skills with a lightsaber are at least equal to Bane's, but I think that Bane's superb force mastery will win him against Kenobi. It's not such a weird concept, Obi beating Bane, so please, use some proper arguments if you think that. Or direct me to some proper arguments. xD

Anyway, I'm pretty confident Lucas said Sidious was the strongest Sith Lord ever, but I can't find the exact quote . Maybe somebody else can...

NES is as canon as it gets; the statements that contradicted established canon are non-canon, but NOTHING contradicts the fact that Sidious was the strongest Sith Lord ever. NOTHING was done to imply otherwise. Saying that "Yoda could not defeat the strongest sith lord in history" established that Sidious IS the strongest.

By the way- the movie's novelization, which is actually considered g-canon (see the article on Wookieepedia), calls Yoda "the most devestatingly powerful foe the darkness have ever known". Incidentally, it also depicted Sidious completely overloading Yoda and quite pwning him... unless the gap between the Jedi and Sith is so extreme, wouldn't someone who can defeat the strongest foe the darkness had seen up until that point be called the strongest foe the LIGHT had ever known?

Bane is close to ROTS Sidious' level on Force Mastery and Saber Mastery, but he's probably more similar to Anakin's level in sabers at least. Sidious is stronger than him, and as I don't remember Bane knowing battle meditation, Luke would get schooled in a swordfight. Possibly in the force, too.

The fact is, I don't remember Bane ravaging entire fleets with a single force ability... lightning is a standard dark side ability, which both mastered to the utmost degree, but Sidious' strength in the force; in addition to him taking the lightning one notch up- will win him the fight in such a struggle.

And we know Luke, by DE, can't possibly defeat any incarnation of Sidious, once Bane gets taken out, the fight is basically over.

Originally posted by Gideon
But I am, because it is an example of the many times where we have all placed great faith in the statement made by a fallible third party. Unless you mean to tell me that you never did, which might be the case, as I can't recall.It's not the same thing. Calling someone more powerful or better than others of a specific period doesn't quite compare to claiming that an individual is "the most powerful -blank- in history." Statements like that need to come from an omniscient, unquestionable source; Yoda, Kas'im, and Anakin all have their own "blanket" statements, but they all come from the infallible narrator. Sidious is noted as the most powerful dark side Force-user in modern times. Which makes more sense. While I agree that overall, he has a much greater pool of resources to work from, Traya lived in the era in question. She was alive through the Sith War, and he Jedi Civil War, and the hunts that followed. She witnessed firsthand the abilities of her contemporaries, and even trained Revan. So I'd say that, in this matter, her hands-on experiences trump whatever records and secondary sources Na'al might have. Not to mention that she lived, studied, and trained on Malachor V - the "Ossus" of the ancient Sith, so to speak. As a Sith Lord she would've had access to basically everything on the planet, and so one would assume that she'd be able to accurately gauge the limits of those she spent years studying.

Na'al could also have been influenced by his perception of the Darth Sidious who existed in his time; the one who tore holes in space-time. How would he have been able to accurately compare the power of a Sith from one period to a younger Palpatine he barely knew?
That's fair. I just think calling anyone who's not a Skywalker the most powerful anything in history is a stupid expression of bias on the part of the author. And the fact that Palpatine has so many of them, and all coming from individual characters is irksome.

Originally posted by Faunus
It's not the same thing. Calling someone more powerful or better than others of a specific period doesn't quite compare to claiming that an individual is "the most powerful -blank- in history." Statements like that need to come from an omniscient, unquestionable source; Yoda, Kas'im, and Anakin all have their own "blanket" statements, but they all come from the infallible narrator. Sidious is noted as the most powerful dark side Force-user in modern times. Which makes more sense. While I agree that overall, he has a much greater pool of resources to work from, Traya lived in the era in question. She was alive through the Sith War, and he Jedi Civil War, and the hunts that followed. She witnessed firsthand the abilities of her contemporaries, and even trained Revan. So I'd say that, in this matter, her hands-on experiences trump whatever records and secondary sources Na'al might have.
Na'al, however, has Ancient Sith records and sources to go on, even knowing intimate details of their era's founding and what happened at Ragnos's funeral. Na'al lived in an era of knowledge restoration. He is not a fool, nor ignorant and his knowledge base is at least as impressive as anything from Traya's era.

Whereas Palpatine was able to pick the minds of the very Sith who had established Malachor V. As well as Nihilus and Bane who had obtained all of Revan's dark side knowledge.

Presumably because he's got enough records to know things about Exar Kun and Marka Ragnos that not even Traya could have known. The knowledge he has of Nadd and Kun's rather clandestine activities and powers isn't to be scoffed at. He even demonstrates a knowlegde of Palpatine's training under Plagueis-we can surmise this is in part from the Telos Holocron

Some from individual characters, others from narration and the like, but it's doubtful any of the others have more going for them than Palpatine

The quote about Sidious comes from the narrator in ROTS, not from yoda. I can only assume that the omniscient narrator knows what he (she?) is talking about. Ican get the exact quote tomorrow.

No, it comes from Sidious' entry in the NEC.