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in the 3 classic areas of combat

Caedus ftw

i pick maul. Jacen is yet to win a saber fight against anyone of caliber. Granted he did beat Katarn, but beat him with the force.
So i take Maul with sabers
Jacen with the force (only because maul has never shown a great ability to manipulate the force)
and Maul overall, because he would be all over Jacen with his two blades to the extent that Caedus wouldn't have the opportunity to mount an overwhelming force attack.

Jacen injured Luke in a saber duel, true he didn't when but to last any length of time against Luke is most impressive. To actually land a blow on him...

Jacen takes all 3.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Jacen takes all 3.

Seconded. You people really underrate Jacen. He took down Katarn and a pair of other Jedi Knights only a few weeks after sustaining huge injuries from putting up a good fight against Luke. That's better than Maul ever did.

i think maul is underrated personally, just because he lost the only fight we ever saw... i mean, so did grievous, but he gets much fanboy hubbub. Jacen is teaching himself, Maul was trained by sidious. how would jacen know more than maul?

Originally posted by caedusrulesall
Seconded. You people really underrate Jacen. He took down Katarn and a pair of other Jedi Knights only a few weeks after sustaining huge injuries from putting up a good fight against Luke. That's better than Maul ever did.

I must concur. I may not like Solo as a Sith, but he has Mual overmatched for sure.

Originally posted by truejedi
i think maul is underrated personally, just because he lost the only fight we ever saw... i mean, so did grievous, but he gets much fanboy hubbub. Jacen is teaching himself, Maul was trained by sidious. how would jacen know more than maul?
I don't actually read NJO / DN / LotF, but I am sure that Jacen learned most of his skills from Jedi as he was becoming a Jedi. And didn't Lumiya train him when he first turned to the dark side? Plus Luke recieved hardly any training and he's the strongest ever, would Maul beat him just cause he was trained by Sidious?


And, Maul is sometimes underrated, but not as much as he used to be. I wouldn't say Grievous gets a ton of fanboy hubbub, either. Grievous is stronger than 99% of the PT Jedi, same as Maul.

Solo could possibly knows more of the Force than anybody.
He had that 5 year sojourn to discover how other cultures use the Force.
He was trained by the Jedi.
He was trained some by Lumiya.
He survived a duel with Grand Master Skywalker.
Maul was defeated by Padawan Kenobi.
Obi Wan was good, but he was no Master.

Originally posted by Darth Maliko
Solo could possibly knows more of the Force than anybody.
He had that 5 year sojourn to discover how other cultures use the Force.
He was trained by the Jedi.
He was trained some by Lumiya.
He survived a duel with Grand Master Skywalker.
Maul was defeated by Padawan Kenobi.
Obi Wan was good, but he was no Master.

i can concur with your opinion of jacen.... Though i still would like to point out he gets his butt kicked in EVERY BOOK. He did learn a lot. (but we don't know what) during his 5 years. He was trained a bit by Lumiya, but mostly just in the sacrifice way. She kept talking about his "sacrifice" and so on. He did survive a duel with Grand Master Skywalker, but he wouldn't have if Luke had wanted him dead. Luke had just broken Jacen's gauntlet, and Jacen knew he was beaten (that's in the book) BEFORE Ben ever stuck the dagger in him. Jacen was beaten by luke, one on one, on his own turf, and the JGM let him go. That's a fact. It was to keep Ben from going to the darkside. In fact, Luke has had several opportunities to kill Jacen, and passed on each one.
1. When luke immobilized Jacen on the Solo prior to the Jedi leaving the GA. Jacen was helpless. It says in the novel, that he was using all of his strength to break free, and he couldn't move a finger. THAT shows you how close to Luke's level he actually was.

2. In the Stealth X's, prior to the use of Centerpoint Station, Luke had jacen, jacen knew it, but Luke let him go because of the child in the ship. Jacen was furious at luke for using Alana against him, but in truth, Luke was using the homing device that Jacen, who apparently never changes his clothes (lol) still had on.

3. When he could have killed him in the duel on the Solo, but left him for fear of Ben going to the darkside.

4. Prior to the battle over Fondor, when luke could have killed Jacen as easily as tricking him into believing ships were everywhere. But continued to try to talk him away from the dark. (is it just me, or is Luke getting stupider... lol)

WAITT.... WAY off topic, but i just had a thought. What if Luke's legacy is to turn Jacen back to the light?????? CRAP. we know luke has the ability to kill bad guys. No biggie there, but what if, at the end, Luke turns Jacen back..... THAT would make it a legacy, since it is the same thing he did for his father. That would suck. whiney jacen need to die, IMO...

back on topic:

One more jab at jacen: Caedus was stalemated by Mara. Even beaten if you consider him using ben's face against her as a dirty trick (which i can't help thinking of it as) Mara was the emperors hand. A person with a small amount of force potential, used as his assassin. Maul was his chosen apprentice, which do you think is better? i'd go with the apprentice myself.

To defend Maul. In his entire star wars career, he has one bad moment. Literally ONE SECOND where he freezes, for some stupid reason and gets cut in half, very unlogical. He just defeated one of the greatest bladesmiths in the Jedi order in Qui Gonn, he defeated an enraged Obi-Wan, who, if you remember, was actually a Jedi KNIGHT, NOT a padawan. b/c Qui Gonn had declared him a knight before leaving coruscant the last time. and for some reason froze when obi-wan jumped out of the pit. makes no sense. Otherwise, he was flawless, killing every target assigned to him. I'm no maul fanboy, not at all, but i still think he is better than jacen, who is yet to win anything, and seems terribly overhyped by a bunch of authors desperate to make SOMETHING, SOMEWHERE near to the monster they have created in NJO Luke.

truejedi-tou are right about, as far as I can tell, everthing.
To be honest, as a character, I prefer Maul.
Solo makes me, for the first time, want the "good" guys to win.
That killing Mara with poison just pissed me off.
She was my favorite female character.
Jacen SHOULD die.

Originally posted by darthsith19

And, Maul is sometimes underrated, but not as much as he used to be. I wouldn't say Grievous gets a ton of fanboy hubbub, either. Grievous is stronger than 99% of the PT Jedi, same as Maul.

I agree, I would spend time arguing for the two of them and be called a fan boy yet I presented a logical argument and counter arguments.

Everyone keeps bringing up Kenobi defeating Maul.. but Maul really defeated him and the Qui Gonn. Kenobi just surprised him, and it was obvious that he was stronger than either of them, so they needed the plot to aid Obi wan.

Originally posted by tauros
Everyone keeps bringing up Kenobi defeating Maul.. but Maul really defeated him and the Qui Gonn. Kenobi just surprised him, and it was obvious that he was stronger than either of them, so they needed the plot to aid Obi wan.

I completely agree with you, Maul did outduel the duo and was controlling the majority of (something that Qui-gon realized early on) the fight and in the jedi vs sith guide Obiwan said that even when he was using the darkside Maul was feeding on it to outduel him. Maul lost due to him being over confident certainly not lack of skill.

Yep, and because of it, we don't really know Mauls true power, since the only thing he did was beat a Jedi master and a Jedi knight, which obviously makes him powerful, but how powerful?

Originally posted by tauros
Yep, and because of it, we don't really know Mauls true power, since the only thing he did was beat a Jedi master and a Jedi knight, which obviously makes him powerful, but how powerful?

but maul was LOOSING the saber lock which is why he employed a force push so.......i'd say the jury is still out on whether or not maul actually beat obi wan.

and i don't give maul that much credit for killing qui-gon, sure qui was renowned but im sure he was PAST HIS PRIME, so i would equate maul beating quigon to maul beating, the OT yoda.

Why do you think Qui-gonn was past his prime? To me, he seemed to be IN his prime. A good age, not yet slow, but he had had time to learn much.

And umm.. Maul WON the saber lock. Obi-wan was pushed back first by Maul overpowering him in the saber lock, and THEN he pushed Obi with the force. See for yourself: http://youtube.com/watch?v=bPLXwrj7i7Q&feature=related
4:05

Jacen beats Maul...

EDIT - sorry, I would normally post more, but I'm on a lazyness moment now.

Originally posted by tauros
Why do you think Qui-gonn was past his prime? To me, he seemed to be IN his prime. A good age, not yet slow, but he had had time to learn much.

And umm.. Maul WON the saber lock. Obi-wan was pushed back first by Maul overpowering him in the saber lock, and THEN he pushed Obi with the force. See for yourself: http://youtube.com/watch?v=bPLXwrj7i7Q&feature=related
4:05

getting exhausted and sweating after 1 minute of dueling maul on tatooine
of course qui gon was past his prime,


Maul
getting his lighsaber cut in half and getting kicked down, not only that but in the saber lock obi wan managed to almost press maul against the wall, i say kenobi won the saber lock.

Prove me he wouldn't have gotten exhausted "in his prime" then?

How did Kenobi win the saber lock when Maul got out of it by quickly overpowering Kenobi? Obi-wan was SLOWLY pressing the sabers against Maul, but then Maul took them away from him in an instant(clearly showing that he won it) and then pushed Obi.

Originally posted by tauros
Prove me he wouldn't have gotten exhausted "in his prime" then?

How did Kenobi win the saber lock when Maul got out of it by quickly overpowering Kenobi? Obi-wan was SLOWLY pressing the sabers against Maul, but then Maul took them away from him in an instant(clearly showing that he won it) and then pushed Obi.

MOC has been anti Maul as long as I can remember. Need I remind you all that people the likes of Anoon Bondara who's saber skill was described as "second to none" in the entire jedi order prior (including Yoda) to tpm was not able to beat Maul in battle.


Obiwan said this on page 29 of the jedi vs sith guide:

When the last door lifted, I gave into my anger as I charged the dark warrior. I absolutely wanted to destroy him. He used my anger against me,actually fed off my fury,gaining strength as I exhausted my own. I lost my lightsaber and he had me......

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
MOC has been anti Maul as long as I can remember. Need I remind you all that people the likes of Anoon Bondara who's saber skill was described as "second to none" in the entire jedi order prior (including Yoda) to tpm was not able to beat Maul in battle.


Obiwan said this on page 29 of the jedi vs sith guide:

When the last door lifted, I gave into my anger as I charged the dark warrior. I absolutely wanted to destroy him. He used my anger against me,actually fed off my fury,gaining strength as I exhausted my own. I lost my lightsaber and he had me......
any duelist in their prime doesn't get totally exhausted in 1 minute of dueling, qui gon was old he lost stamina.

its not that i hate maul, its just that his existence alone is a great source of displeasure for me and that his death made me very happy.

so back to the duel. i am doing my best to be objective so i will give points of credit and criticisms to both duelists.

mauls credits:
mastered juyo
stood up to both duelists for about 5 minutes
put obi wan in a put

obi wan's credits:
sliced mauls saber in half
made maul desperate enough to resort to a force push
killed maul
resourceful enough to use qui gon's blade in a duel with maul

Mauls criticisms:
couldnt beat both duelists at once so needed to separate them
back up the whole duel (why not press the attack)
taunting
got back handed by qui gon and fell a few stories down

obi wan criticisms:
didnt force push back
didnt strike fast enough,
and didnt battle meditate to save qui gon

So just because Maul was -smart- it makes him weak?

"made maul desperate enough to resort to a force push"

Maul saw an opportunity, and he used it. How is that being desperate?

"couldnt beat both duelists at once so needed to separate them"
Firstly, again just a smart thing to do. Why take a risk? And even if he couldn't, how is that a criticism? Obi wan and Qui-Gon are both great fighters.

"taunting"
?

"back up the whole duel (why not press the attack)"

Umm..?

Originally posted by Man of Christ
to use qui gon's blade in a duel with maul

Mauls criticisms:
couldnt beat both duelists at once so needed to separate them
back up the whole duel

He was at one point controlling the duel when it was 2 vs 1. As the narrator says in TPM says:

The Jedi Knights tried continually to press the attack, and indeed, the Sith Lord was moving away from the Naboo and the starfighters and back toward the hangar's far wall. But Qui-Gon recognized that while it might seem as if the Jedi were driving him before them, it was the Sith Lord who was controlling the struggle. Wheeling and spinning, leaping and somersaulting with astonishing ease, their enemy was taking them with him, drawing them on to a place of his own choosing. His agility and dexterity allowed him to keep them both at bay, constantly attacking while at the same time effectively blunting their counterattacks, relentlessly searching for an opening in their defense.

Trying to find the opening in the defense and separate his 2 opponents is the smart thing to do, it increase the chance of victory considerably.



Did you not notice my previous post?

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Obiwan said this on page 29 of the jedi vs sith guide:

When the last door lifted, I gave into my anger as I charged the dark warrior. I absolutely wanted to destroy him. He used my anger against me,actually fed off my fury,gaining strength as I exhausted my own. I lost my lightsaber and he had me......

Furthermore as I already pointed out numerous times in different threads that the hole potentially saved him. Had he just been pushed with the force he would be unarmed as he lost his lightsaber prior to falling into the hole. And thus would have no time to calm down and think about retrieving his fallen master's weapon.


There is no proof that he knew it.

Originally posted by Man of Christ
getting exhausted and sweating after 1 minute of dueling maul on tatooine
of course qui gon was past his prime,



To top it off, The Ultimate Visual Guide says that Maul is 'one of the deadliest Sith apprentices in history'. And idk if Jinn was in his prime of not, but remember, he was also running through the desert for who knows how long before that, while Maul was zipping around on his Sith Speeder.

Originally posted by darthsith19
To top it off, The Ultimate Visual Guide says that Maul is 'one of the deadliest Sith apprentices in history'. And idk if Jinn was in his prime of not, but remember, he was also running through the desert for who knows how long before that, while Maul was zipping around on his Sith Speeder.

again do you have an omniscient source holding qui gon as second to none or is that another jedi's OPINION?

Originally posted by tauros
No. It was an opportunity and he took it, not weakness. Maul could still continue fighting AT LEAST evenly with Obi-wan after his saber got cut in half.

let me ask you this then, if he didnt force push, would he have lost in your opinion?

No

Originally posted by tauros
No

well you said he fought evenly UNTIL.......... so how could he have won?

What?

edit

Originally posted by Man of Christ
well you said he fought evenly UNTIL.......... so how could he have won?

MOC are you purposely ignoring my posts? But then again Obiwan's own opinion of the fight destroys your argument.

And the quote of Anoon Bondara being second to none is coming from the narrator and if I'm not mistaking is in two books.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
MOC are you purposely ignoring my posts? But then again Obiwan's own opinion of the fight destroys your argument.

And the quote of Anoon Bondara being second to none is coming from the narrator and if I'm not mistaking is in two books.

1) you stated correctly that its obi wan's OPINION not neccesarily fact, so it doesnt destroy my argument. look at the video yoiull see what i mean

2)show me a text where he is second to none because that would mean he is better than yoda who was the greatest enemy darkness had ever known

Originally posted by Man of Christ
1) you stated correctly that its obi wan's OPINION not neccesarily fact, so it doesnt destroy my argument. look at the video yoiull see what i mean

Try for the fact that he was actively participating in the duel IN THE DUEL and it is very LOGICAL to say that he knows what is happening to his body in the fact that he was losing strength and he can determine what is happening to Maul since he is dueling him. And on the video you can't see someone's thoughts so you have no proof once again and you can't disprove Obiwan's comments on how he feels on the inside.




Both are from Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter.




And this is from Cloak of Deception


How many times has this been brought up and refuted. Yoda is second to none on the council and Anoon is second to none in the order. And just because Anoon is better swordsman prior to TPM does not mean he has the force strength to over come Yoda which I doubt he has even then prior to his death. Anoon would beat Yoda in a strict sabers contest at this time but lose in the force and all out probably. And by no means do these statement contradict the ROTS statement.

then time for a new thread

Originally posted by Man of Christ
then time for a new thread

For what? I said TPM Yoda loses to Anoon in sabers but probably wins in the force and all out. ROTS Yoda is on another level.