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Mace Windu VS Count Dooku, this fight takes place in the Chancellor's Office where Windu and Sidious fought.
As in the other bout, this fight takes place in the office but can expand to the outer chamber If needed.

Round 1: Lightsabers.

Round 2: Force.

Round 3: Anything Goes. boxing

http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/8/88/Mace_Windu_using_Force_Crush.jpg http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/1/11/Vaapad.jpg http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/4/4a/Windu_Angry.jpg http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/0/0b/Macehands.jpg

VS

http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/0/06/Dooku_Obi-wan_choke.JPG http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/2/23/DookuVSGrievous.jpg http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/9/9e/TholmeGouge.JPG http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/film/dookuanakin5.jpg

Any takers? Opinions?

Me likey the pics. Very well done.

Sabers: While Dooku is almost certainly the more technically skilled of the two in terms of dueling prowess - as was the case with Skywalker - I don't know if he can get past Mace's furious Vaapad and shatterpoint abilities. I say Mace, if only by a slight margin.

Force: Dooku, without a doubt. His power is tremendous, and Mace hasn't demonstrated the ability to counter Sith attacks with his bare hands in the way Yoda has.

All-Out: I don't know how Vaapad would work against techniques that aren't Sith lightning; while telekinetic assaults on Mace are out of the question due to his defensive showings in Shatterpoint, I'd be curious to see what the attack Dooku uses on Asajj in DR would do.

Thank you!

We're freinds now.

Good point.

I think Mace's swordsmanship is good enough where he dosen't have to resort to countering Dooku's blade with his hands.

Vapaad works against all types of attacks, not just lightning, but it was a good question.

Make sure to see the poll on your way out.

Originally posted by Master_Starbuck
Thank you!

We're freinds now. Friends? Pfft. You can be my minion. Spread the pics.

*confused*

Thing is, if Mace could have simply channeled any Force attack thrown at him back out, he should have done so against Kar Vastor instead of getting thrown around like a toy.

I'm not completely decided.

Lol, see my title? I'm not a minion. Minion. (We're still freinds.)

Uh,nm, I think I judged your statement wrong.

Mace was trying to settle the matter mostly with un-armed combat because he thought raw Force-usage wouldn't be beating Kar at his own game.
He ended up defeating Kar with the Force exactly when the time demanded it later though if you remember.

Okay, take your time.

Originally posted by Faunus
Force: Dooku, without a doubt. His power is tremendous, and Mace hasn't demonstrated the ability to counter Sith attacks with his bare hands in the way Yoda has.

mace's force powers in clone wars were pretty cool though.

No doubt.

Who wins this do you think?

Originally posted by Master_Starbuck
No doubt.

Who wins this do you think?


i admit: i'm biased. i like mace better. that dumb cape dooku wears just kills it.

besides that idk

in lightsaber i say tie, if that's allowed.

mace is the creator and master of Juyo/Vaapad. and to be as such one must have mastered all the others.

however: yoda, mace, and dooku are the 3 best lightsaber duelist and all equals.
dooku was the only one other than yoda to best mace in a duel.
also, dooku's style, form 2, was made for lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat. and he was the best there was in that.

in the force

mace

his ability to use powers like plo koon did without falling to the darkside.
force crush, grip. also wave and speed. and if mace can block sidious' lightning, he can block anything.
also with force speed: if it was hand to hand mace would win most definitely.

ANYTHING GOES

mace. combine vaapad, as mace enjoys the fight and vents his inner darkness, and also used with his force prowess, is ay mace take this one.

Originally posted by UltimateStryfe
in the force

mace

his ability to use powers like plo koon did without falling to the darkside.
force crush, grip. also wave and speed. if it was hand to hand mace would win most definitely.No disrespect, but this doesn't really make any sense. Mace - a Jedi Master - is most definitely not going to be disabling Dooku - a very powerful Sith Lord - with a Sith technique. And I fail to see how he's going to counter lightning without the use of his blade. If this is an all-out, no lightsaber brawl, then his superior physical condition would likely lend him a win, but in a battle of Force powers he doesn't have a chance.

Originally posted by Faunus
No disrespect, but this doesn't really make any sense. Mace - a Jedi Master - is most definitely not going to be disabling Dooku - a very powerful Sith Lord - with a Sith technique. And I fail to see how he's going to counter lightning without the use of his blade. If this is an all-out, no lightsaber brawl, then his superior physical condition would likely lend him a win, but in a battle of Force powers he doesn't have a chance.

are they sith techniques though? the jedi keep themselves from them because they provide an outlet to inner darkness yes.
and i think force crush to mace is comparable to lightning to dooku. not in frequency of use but of proficiency ya dig?

oh i just automatically assumed he'd have his lightsaber out when doin the force battle thing.

if not then what's to say mace can't use vaapad's reflective abilities without his blade? after all it is the state of mind he's in is it not?

and as to status i think it's fair to say that dooku and mace are equals in their knowledge of the force. after all there is only one greater than them in their respective orders.

if i were mace i'd force crush dooku's skull then liquify him with force wave.

then burn that f-ing cape

Mace wins. In Obsession, Dooku ran from Mace, and (thanks to Pyron_Knight for this):


http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg216/NikKingMan/BLAHBLAH.jpg


"Perhaps only Master Windu equaled in skill"...


Yoda is on a higher tier than Dooku is. Mace also put Sidious on his ass, and he is Dooku's master. This won't be pwnage by any means, but Mace should take 1 and 3.

I agree. Dooku would be served his own head on a cortosis platter.

Ya know, Cortosis is very brittle, and would be a poor choice of material to make a dinner set out of.

yea there is no point to this thread, i already made this one

Its like the good china of Star Wars i guess.

Originally posted by Darth Maliko
Its like the good china of Star Wars i guess. Yeah, if your guests are attacking their steak with a lightsaber. Other than that, it's a very expensive and useless plate.

Originally posted by Tangible God
Yeah, if your guests are attacking their steak with a lightsaber. Other than that, it's a very expensive and useless plate.


BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Mace would take it. I really don't know about Sidious vs. Mace (I'm not so sure Sidious didn't throw the fight... but that belongs in another thread), but yeah, Anakin vs. Dooku showed us both that Anakin was tapping into the dark side, and that Dooku is 'slipping'. Growing old. As Mace is probably stronger than Anakin at the moment, I'd say that Dooku's skills just won't be enough to beat Mace.

Also, I noticed on a LOAD of threads people seem to interpret sith as 'relying on their force powers' rather than the lightsaber... that's really weird, as most upper-tier Sith can handle a lightsaber better than 99.9% of the Jedi. Of course, that .1% is Yoda, Mace, Anakin, Obi-Wan, etc..., but yeah.

So- It's an arguable tie in pure skill (lightsaber combat), in force mastery I'd say Mace wins because of his ability to channel the darkness of an opponent using the Vaapad thing (don't compare Dooku lightning to Sidious lightning. One had Yoda catch it like a baseball ball, the other sent him flying across the senate room), and his immense telekinetic ability. All in all, Mace wins due to superior physical condition and Vaapad.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Anakin vs. Dooku showed us both that Anakin was tapping into the dark side, and that Dooku is 'slipping'. Growing old.I don't see where that fight capitalized on Dooku's age; he blocked - with one arm - two overhand swings coming from Obi-Wan and Anakin at the same time, and kicked Anakin several feet away and onto his ass while Dooku had his back to him.
ABC argument.

In "pure skill," and assuming you're not referring to effective skill (prowess), Dooku is decidedly Mace's superior. He's had well over seventy years to refine and master Form II, and in that regard his proficiency with his chosen form beats out Mace's. That doesn't mean that he would fare better in a duel, but you get my meaning.

Against Force attacks? Only with a lightsaber. And in sheer mastery, Dooku still has him beat.

That's the most circumstantial comparison I've seen in a while. Yoda got tossed into a wall when he was (somehow) caught unawares. He still managed to catch, handle, and push back Sidious' full-powered lightning while clutching the edge of a metal Senate pod.

And by that logic, and going by RotS or pre-RotS showings, Dooku put Anakin out for a few minutes on end, and had Sora Bulq floored for even longer. Then there's Ventress...

I'm not arguing that Dooku's lightning is as powerful as Sidious'. But I think the way in which a lot of you are getting to your conclusion is stupid.
What immense telekinetic ability? Unless we're going by the CWC, Mace doesn't many fantastic showings, as opposed to Dooku.

Well, we have to look at a few things...

Mace is the better swordsman. He mastered all 7 main Forms, and Dooku is only known to have mastered 1 out of the 3 he knows.
Mace's ability to increase his own strength and speed through tapping into his own Dark side will close any power gap between he and Dooku, as it successfully did against Sidious.
His ability to perceive a shatterpoint nearly guarantees a victory, because we know that at some point in the duel, the shatterpoint will be found and struck.

With Force powers Mace and Dooku are nearly equals. Because Mace didn't happen to fall back on the Force much in his fights in the movies, most fans assume he isn't very strong in them offensively.
Shatterpoint showed us how he used the Force to ride a hill, whilst controlling it with telekinesis - a feat only someone like Dooku or Yoda could manage.
His ability to Force Crush is significantly powerful and effective, and only Darth Vader is shown to have that ability around this era, other then he.
Even though Dooku is a Sith, he will still be able to be killed by the Dark side technique.
In fact, in terms of a Force battle, If Dooku arrayed his hands to shoot lightning, Mace in contrast would clench his fist and Dooku's torso would promptly explode from the inside, crippling him horrifically.

In an all out fight If Mace makes use of his ability to use his Broken Gate Mastery paired with his ability to speed up the molecules in his fists to heat them up (As seen in Clone Wars V1) then he would effectively rend Dooku apart gorily.

Either way, Windu wins, I would say all 3, winning the second just barely.

This isn't easy at all for him, It's still the fight of his life, but he beats Dooku into the dirt - and runs him through.

Originally posted by Master_Starbuck
Well, we have to look at a few things...

Mace is the better swordsman. He mastered all 7 main Forms, and Dooku is only known to have mastered 1 out of the 3 he knows.


While I believe Mace will win the lighstaber duel however i don't recall Mace ever being stated to master all the main 7 forms while Dooku did have knowledge in all the main forms (including Juyo and save for vapaad) as he was the one who taught General Grievious in lightsaber combat.

And why would Dooku want to master all the forms? One is enough. As Kas'im said, it's better to focus on your own style, than master all the styles to know how others fight.

To learn and Master Juyo you need to have mastered all the other Forms before it - thus Juyo being a combination of all the main Forms.

As for Dooku knowing as 7 Forms, I hadn't thought of him teaching Grevious, It's a good point and I'll have to look into that...

Your right, according to sources, Dooku had proficient knowledge of all 7 Forms, but didn't have mastery over all of them.

Windu does however, which still puts him ahead of Dooku in swordsmanship.

Originally posted by tauros
And why would Dooku want to master all the forms? One is enough. As Kas'im said, it's better to focus on your own style, than master all the styles to know how others fight.


Actually it's better to focus on other styles as well, that way when you know the style your enemy does, you know its precise strength's and weaknesses - you know your enemy.

That and it makes you incredibly flexable and adaptable.

I see no one has voted for Dooku in the poll. C'mon, nobody thinks he can win?

At least this thread proves people have gotten smarter around here...shocking

Originally posted by Master_Starbuck
Actually it's better to focus on other styles as well, that way when you know the style your enemy does, you know its precise strength's and weaknesses - you know your enemy.

That and it makes you incredibly flexable and adaptable.

Darth Bane learned about all of the forms and of the duel-bladed moves and he defeated Kas'im.
I believe that, as a duelist, you should have a rudimentary knowledge of all forms, styles, and weapon combos.

Heh, well you don't need it, but it helps.

What's your opinion on this fight?

Originally posted by Master_Starbuck
Well, we have to look at a few things...

Mace is the better swordsman. He mastered all 7 main Forms, and Dooku is only known to have mastered 1 out of the 3 he knows.It's stated that a Juyo master must be a "high-level master of multiple forms." Multiple =/= all, and his conversation with Obi-Wan essentially confirms that he isn't a master of Soresu. Dooku's familiarity with the mechanics driving Ataru would be enough to offset any advantage Mace has there as well, as both his master and Padawan studied the form. Niman is basically a hash of the standard forms tossed together (in other words, worthless), and I believe Dooku was stated to be the only master of Makashi in the era.

That leaves four forms - Shii-Cho, Ataru, Djem So, and Juyo - as those that Mace has probably achieved proficiency or mastery in while developing Vaapad, whereas Dooku, as EH pointed out, has at least some degree of proficiency in every major saber form, and an unparalleled mastery of Makashi.

So no, Mace does not have the same degree of technical skill and knowledge as Dooku; the only reason he would win a duel would be his advanced shatterpoint ability, and that does not work instantaneously.

In a duel? Yeah, Mace might eventually find a weakness. That doesn't mean he'd actually be completely capable of capitalizing on it; if Dooku were to turn this into a Force contest, Mace would lose, plain and simple.

This feat has been blown drastically out of proportion; Janus cleared it up a while ago.

The landslide built into a wave of its own that filled in the gully as it rolled down toward the steamcrawler and the screaming, sobbing children-and on the very crest of that wave of dirt and rock, backpedaling furiously to keep from being sucked under by the landslide's roll, came Mace Windu.

Mace rode that crest while the wave sank and flattened and finally lurched to a halt, its last remnants trickling into a ridge that joined Mace's position with the corner of the steamcrawler's cabin. Nearly all his concentration stayed submerged in the Force, spread throughout the slide, using a wide-focus Force grip to stabilize the rubble while he scrambled down to the steamcrawler's roof.

All he does is trigger the landslide, then ride the wave down to the steamcrawler. He even points out that Yoda would've had a much easier time of it:


Mace opened himself to the Force. He could hear Yoda's voice: Size matters not-which, Mace had always privately considered, was more true for Yoda than it was for any of his students. Yoda would probably just reach out, lift the steamcrawler from the gully, and ca sually float it up the mountain to the outpost while croaking some enigmatic maxim about how Even a volcano is as nothing, compared to the power of the Force... Mace was much less confident in his own raw power.

He only ever uses it on droids and cyborgs; there's no indication that it would have a remote chance of working on a Sith Lord who appears to be more powerful than Mace himself.

This is stupid. Jedi are trained to resist forms of kinesis from birth; Mace manages to break free from the Force grip of the significantly more powerful Kar Vastor while being hurled through the air like a rag doll. Dooku is, if anything, even more powerful than Mace, and Force Crush is a variant of kinesis. As an accomplished Sith Lord of thirteen years, it's one that he would almost certainly be familiar with it.

And on that note, what is Mace going to do against the technique Dooku uses on Ventress? You seem to think that Mace is going to "outspeed" Dooku's lightning by just clenching his fist; all the Count has to do is lift a finger.

"Don't patronize me," Asajj said coldly.

Dooku looked around. "Or what?"

Her face went pale. Dooku lifted that one finger, and this time he tapped it in the air, as if pushing a needle into a pincushion. Ventress crumpled to her knees. Her voice came out clotted with pain.

"Please," she said. "Don't."

"It doesn't feel very good, does it? Like sharp stones in your throat and chest."

Dooku made another little patting motion, and Ventress slammed to the tile floor.

"It's the blood vessels I hate," Dooku said. "The way they stretch inside, like balloons about to pop."

"P-p-p-please..."

"But worse than anything is the memories," he said, more softly still. "They crowd around, like flies on meat. Every despicable thing, every petty vice, every little act of spite."

A cruel, strange quiet stretched out as Ventress panted on the stone floor. Rain ticked against the window glass, and the Count's soft voice went dark and far away.

1) Where is Mace stated to be a master of the Broken Gate style?

2) Heat up the molecules in his fists? That was never mentioned in Shatterpoint, when he gets his ass handed to him by Kar Vastor.

3) And is Dooku just going to stand there and get pounded into the ground? If Mace is unarmed, Dooku eventually tears him apart with Sith lightning; there's absolutely nothing he can do about it.
Either way, Windu wins, I would say all 3, winning the second just barely.

In a strict duel? Probably. In an all-out fight? Maybe.

But in a pure Force contest, there's nothing to suggest that Mace could hold his own.

Blast, gotta go. I'll answer your questions tomorow though. ^_~

Originally posted by Master_Starbuck
What's your opinion on this fight?

Mace would spit-shine his transport with what's left of Dooku's head IMO.

Originally posted by Faunus
It's stated that a Juyo master must be a "high-level master of multiple forms." Multiple =/= all, and his conversation with Obi-Wan essentially confirms that he isn't a master of Soresu. Dooku's familiarity with the mechanics driving Ataru would be enough to offset any advantage Mace has there as well, as both his master and Padawan studied the form. Niman is basically a hash of the standard forms tossed together (in other words, worthless), and I believe Dooku was stated to be the only master of Makashi in the era.

That leaves four forms - Shii-Cho, Ataru, Djem So, and Juyo - as those that Mace has probably achieved proficiency or mastery in while developing Vaapad, whereas Dooku, as EH pointed out, has at least some degree of proficiency in every major saber form, and an unparalleled mastery of Makashi.

So no, Mace does not have the same degree of technical skill and knowledge as Dooku; the only reason he would win a duel would be his advanced shatterpoint ability, and that does not work instantaneously.

In a duel? Yeah, Mace might eventually find a weakness. That doesn't mean he'd actually be completely capable of capitalizing on it; if Dooku were to turn this into a Force contest, Mace would lose, plain and simple.

This feat has been blown drastically out of proportion; Janus cleared it up a while ago.

The landslide built into a wave of its own that filled in the gully as it rolled down toward the steamcrawler and the screaming, sobbing children-and on the very crest of that wave of dirt and rock, backpedaling furiously to keep from being sucked under by the landslide's roll, came Mace Windu.

Mace rode that crest while the wave sank and flattened and finally lurched to a halt, its last remnants trickling into a ridge that joined Mace's position with the corner of the steamcrawler's cabin. Nearly all his concentration stayed submerged in the Force, spread throughout the slide, using a wide-focus Force grip to stabilize the rubble while he scrambled down to the steamcrawler's roof.

All he does is trigger the landslide, then ride the wave down to the steamcrawler. He even points out that Yoda would've had a much easier time of it:


Mace opened himself to the Force. He could hear Yoda's voice: Size matters not-which, Mace had always privately considered, was more true for Yoda than it was for any of his students. Yoda would probably just reach out, lift the steamcrawler from the gully, and ca sually float it up the mountain to the outpost while croaking some enigmatic maxim about how Even a volcano is as nothing, compared to the power of the Force... Mace was much less confident in his own raw power.

He only ever uses it on droids and cyborgs; there's no indication that it would have a remote chance of working on a Sith Lord who appears to be more powerful than Mace himself.

This is stupid. Jedi are trained to resist forms of kinesis from birth; Mace manages to break free from the Force grip of the significantly more powerful Kar Vastor while being hurled through the air like a rag doll. Dooku is, if anything, even more powerful than Mace, and Force Crush is a variant of kinesis. As an accomplished Sith Lord of thirteen years, it's one that he would almost certainly be familiar with it.

And on that note, what is Mace going to do against the technique Dooku uses on Ventress? You seem to think that Mace is going to "outspeed" Dooku's lightning by just clenching his fist; all the Count has to do is lift a finger.

"Don't patronize me," Asajj said coldly.

Dooku looked around. "Or what?"

Her face went pale. Dooku lifted that one finger, and this time he tapped it in the air, as if pushing a needle into a pincushion. Ventress crumpled to her knees. Her voice came out clotted with pain.

"Please," she said. "Don't."

"It doesn't feel very good, does it? Like sharp stones in your throat and chest."

Dooku made another little patting motion, and Ventress slammed to the tile floor.

"It's the blood vessels I hate," Dooku said. "The way they stretch inside, like balloons about to pop."

"P-p-p-please..."

"But worse than anything is the memories," he said, more softly still. "They crowd around, like flies on meat. Every despicable thing, every petty vice, every little act of spite."

A cruel, strange quiet stretched out as Ventress panted on the stone floor. Rain ticked against the window glass, and the Count's soft voice went dark and far away.

1) Where is Mace stated to be a master of the Broken Gate style?

2) Heat up the molecules in his fists? That was never mentioned in Shatterpoint, when he gets his ass handed to him by Kar Vastor.

3) And is Dooku just going to stand there and get pounded into the ground? If Mace is unarmed, Dooku eventually tears him apart with Sith lightning; there's absolutely nothing he can do about it.
Either way, Windu wins, I would say all 3, winning the second just barely.

In a strict duel? Probably. In an all-out fight? Maybe.

But in a pure Force contest, there's nothing to suggest that Mace could hold his own.



Okay, you raised some very good points.

Well first off, seeing as how Form VII is the byproduct of completely combining all of the main Forms, it is essential for the practitioner to at least gain a focused knowledge of all the main Forms in order to successfully learn Juyo - and in this I mean that whilst a person is learning Juyo, they are learning every technique of every main Form though put into different dimensions within the current Form they are learning. Consequently, when a Jedi masters Juyo, they gain mastery in every Form before it through merit of association.

By the way, precisely which conversation is supposed to show that Mace isn't a Master of Soresu?
Mace has mastered Soresu, as Yoda has - but it was revealed in LoE that Obi-Wan had mastered it to a degree above all other Jedi, even more than some others who had also mastered the art.

Due to his Juyo and Vapaad mastery, Mace has an equal If not surpassed familiarity of Ataru, so Dooku would not be able to use this against him, If anything it would most likely be the other way around.
"Niman is basically a hash of the standard forms tossed together (in other words, worthless)"
Lol, aww, so mean. Actually Niman is a quite reliable Form and is well-balanced. It get's a bad rap due to the people that used it were generally green Knights and Padawans facing hundreds of blaster-wielding combatants in a closed-in environment.
That and Jango Fett, one of the greatest Mandalorians ever using a Mandalorian coined technique that allows them to time their shots through the defense of a lightsaber's blade.
Also, Master Tholme If I'm not mistaken was also a Master of Makashi.

"That leaves four forms - Shii-Cho, Ataru, Djem So, and Juyo - as those that Mace has probably achieved proficiency or mastery in while developing Vaapad, whereas Dooku, as EH pointed out, has at least some degree of proficiency in every major saber form, and an unparalleled mastery of Makashi. "

Again, due to his Mastery in Juyo, he had mastered those said Forms and of course, the rest, especially during his conception of Vapaad.
Whilst Dooku had some degree of profiency is those Forms stated above, he was only known to have mastered Makashi, and while his mastery of said art was extremely great - the characteristics and qualities of a much deadlier style of swordsmanship would seal Dooku's fate, as a corpse.

So, your right, Mace does not have the same degree of technical skill and knowledge as Dooku. Upon revision of his swordsmanship, it is now known that his degree of technical skill and knowledge surpasses Dooku, and while the Shatterpoint ability may not be instantaneous in the duel, the sheer sum of techniques found in Vapaad would be enough for Windu to utilize an effective defense until the shatterpoint could be located and struck.

If Dooku tried to use his lightning Mace would redirect it with moderate difficulty and cut him down.

I have to say, you pointed nothing out about the easiness of manipulating a giant mound of earth weighing a few tons and managing to control it as it speeds down a hill in the middle of a storm.
I do realize that Janus does indeed work for George Lucas and even outranks Leeland Chee it terms of merit of opinion but I have to boldly say that he's quite wrong and I found the sentences proceeding the end of your quotation of Shatterpoint to be most interesting...
This is where your quote of the book ended:
"....Mace was much less confident in his own raw power"
Then, it continues with:
"But he had other talents.
A new tremor from the eruption shook the dirt cliff under his feet. He felt it sag: undercut by the river of lava, the shaking was rapidly destroying the cliff's structural integrity.
Any second now it would collapse, sending Mace down into the river, unless he did something first.
The something he did was to reach deep through the Force until he could feel a structure of broken rock ten meters below him and five meters in from the face. He thought, "Why wait?" and shoved.
The dirt cliff shook, buckled and collapsed.
With a subterranean roar that that buried even the thunder of the eruption and the clamor of the steamcrawler's laboring engine, hundreds of tons of dirt and rock poured into the river of lava, organics bursting into flames that the growing landslide instantly smothered as it built itself into a huge wedge-shaped burm of raw dirt across the gully; as lava slowly bulged and climbed the upstream face, the downward side of the cliff continued to collapse, piling over the cooler lava that hardened beneath it, pushing the hotter more liquid lava into a wave that washed around the steamcrawler's side, welled to the lip of the precipice, then plunged in a rain of fire upon the black jungle far below.
The landslide built into a wave of its own that filled in the gully as it rolled down toward the steamcrawler and the screaming, sobbing children-and on the very crest of that of that wave of dirt and rock, backpedaling furiously to keep from being sucked under by the landslide's roll, came Mace Windu.
Mace rode that crest while the wave sank and flattened and finally lurched to a halt, it's last remnant's trickling into a ridge that joined Mace's position with the corner of the steamcrawler's cabin. Nearly all of his concentration stayed submerged in the Force, spread throughout the slide, using a wide Force-grip to stabalize the rubble while he scrambled down to the steamcrawler's roof."

Wow, upon reading that, I found some "happy mistakes" basically things I think some had overlooked after reading about the whole "ride a hill thing", first, with the hill, he basically gave it a nudge as you saw then used the Force to actually keep control of it as he rode it. Now, If you've never lifted weights before in your life, imagine climbing a small mountain of 45 Lb. plates and then with a couple extra arms, having to keep a hold of so many of them at once to keep yourself stabilized as you come down the "hill". That takes considerable strength and muscular control.
Mace's ability to ride but more importantly keep manipulative control over elements of the hill demonstrated considerable telekinetic strength and mental control.
It's just that the situation which showed this was subtle and the mechanics hard to grasp for some.
Now, after some heart-warming comments and things of that nature, the impressive feats continue:
"The steamcrawler lurched, the hatch going even higher; his sudden movement had been enough to tip it's precarious balance, toppling it toward the precipice.
Mace bared his teeth to the night. With the Force, he seized the streamcrawler and yanked it back into place - but a squeal from above grabbed his attention. In seizing the 'crawler he'd lost his Force-hold on the landslide, and the unstable mound of dirt and rock had begun to shift under the little girl and the two boys, sending them sliding down toward the lava.
Mace calmed his hammering heart and extended one hand; he had to close his eyes for a moment to reassert his control on the slide and stabilize it- but it's shift had left it less solid than before.
He could hold it for the minute or two it would it would take the girl and boys to reach relative safety of the outcrop above, not much more. And now he could feel the 'crawler slowly titling beneath him, leaning higher and higher toward the point of no return."

Heh, for those who haven't read the book yet, I won't spoil what happens to he and the children, does he save them, do they all die terribly? who knows?

Anyway, I had forgotten that the whole thing took place in the middle of an erupting volcano! Lol.
A sandcrawler is basically as big and as heavy as that durasteel girder that Yoda lifted up and moved away from Obi-Wan and Anakin in AotC to save them.
The girder seemed to be near Yoda's limit and when Mace seized the equally heavy and big Sandcrawler, he was able to tier it into place.
He also knew he could hold the cliff and keep it there for a few minutes If needed.
All of that was very impressive and gives us the necessary information to know that Mace is at least close in power If not actually equal to Dooku's in terms of telekinesis.

So, yes, of course the ability to "ride the hill" was impressive and showed his telekinetic ability - it's mentioned alot for a reason.
And the after mentioned ability to hold the multi-ton sandcrawler up and into place, and then the slide itself at the same time also is something not to be forgotten.

Looks like you may need to look farther than Janus for your answer's my friend, like canon.

In terms of the Force Crush scenario, you were absolutely right to point out that a Jedi does learn to resist telekinesis as younglings, truthfully I had forgotten that. That was a smart thing to point out.
However don't forget that at times those defenses can be broken through, such as Yoda pushing Sidious.
I think your right that his 13 years as a Sith Lord would defiantly lend salt to the fact that he could defend against the attack.
Though it's hard to say for sure. I don't think Dooku has ever had anyone use Force-Crush on him before and the array of telekinesis used in the technique itself is complex and subtle, which may make it hard to defend against, that and it is an insta-kill ability which means Mace would only have to simply close his fist to make Dooku die.

So, it's a toss-up.

On another note, that ability Dooku used against Assaj was most interesting.
I didn't know he knew Moricho.
Indeed, If he were to use that attack on Windu, the results are also a toss-up, though I'm sure Windu has better defense than Assaj.

1) Where is Mace stated to be a master of the Broken Gate style?

A: Mace has been stated in official sources to be a master of hand-to-hand combat, and seeing as it was confirmed he didn't use Teras Kasi, he was also indirectly referred to as using Jedi fighting techniques(also known as Broken Gate) in shatterpoint.

2) Heat up the molecules in his fists? That was never mentioned in Shatterpoint, when he gets his ass handed to him by Kar Vastor.

A: I know, that's why I wrote this afterwards: "(As seen in Clone Wars V1)". Since you might not have been able to figure it out, Clone Wars V1 means "Clone Wars Volume 1". He used an extremely rare Force ability called Biocombustion to speed up the molecules in his hands, heating the surface of his skin up to inject kinetic energy into his opponents, the superbattledroids.

3) And is Dooku just going to stand there and get pounded into the ground? If Mace is unarmed, Dooku eventually tears him apart with Sith lightning; there's absolutely nothing he can do about it.
Either way, Windu wins, I would say all 3, winning the second just barely.

A: If Mace decided to use Broken Gate on Dooku, the Sith Lord wouldn't have a choice in the matter. If he tried to "tear him apart with Sith Lightning" then the lightning would merely hit the area where Windu had been.
Tapping into Vapaad, Mace would become invisible to Dooku in terms of speed, and he would just blast his face into fragments with his fists.

With that, there's this: "Windu went toe-to-toe with Kar Vastor on Haruun Kal, and demonstrated blinding speed by landing six blows to the man's body before he could blink. On Dantooine, having lost his lightsaber, Mace took to tearing super battle droids apart with his bare hands, showing incredible strength and resilience as he crushed armor and tore out circuitry with his fingers. " - Wookieepedia

"In a strict duel? Probably. In an all-out fight? Maybe.

But in a pure Force contest, there's nothing to suggest that Mace could hold his own."

In a strict duel, certainly.

For the all out Force powers, there has been plenty shown to suggest Mace could hold his own.


Been good sparring with you.

From what i have seen, these two are almost perfectly equal. I voted for mace though because he's cooler.

Definitely. I'm still waiting for Faunus to defend his claims.

If he can that is.

Windu 10, Dooku O

Originally posted by Master_Starbuck
Well first off, seeing as how Form VII is the byproduct of completely combining all of the main Forms, it is essential for the practitioner to at least gain a focused knowledge of all the main Forms in order to successfully learn Juyo - and in this I mean that whilst a person is learning Juyo, they are learning every technique of every main Form though put into different dimensions within the current Form they are learning. Consequently, when a Jedi masters Juyo, they gain mastery in every Form before it through merit of association.Where is any of this canonically stated?

"I am called a great swordsman because I invented a lethal style; but who is greater, the creator of a killing form-or the master of the classic form?"

If that somehow leaves room for an implication that Mace could be a Soresu master, we must have different understandings of the English language.

I didn't say Dooku would be able to use it against him; I said Mace wouldn't be able to use it against Dooku. Read.

I don't see why you'd even bother arguing this; Niman got a bad rep because it's taught to those who wish to emphasize diplomacy over skills with a lightsaber; it teaches the Jedi pieces of the major forms, excluding Juyo, without ever allowing them to capitalize on any one strength. This is why so many Jedi died at Geonosis; you think an army of AotC Obi-Wans or Kit Fistos would have had so many deaths in such a short amount of time?
Not that I'm contesting it, but where is this stated?



See the above...
"Some level of proficiency" was enough to train advanced droids to successfully take on Jedi Knights.

Once this is backed up as I requested earlier, I'll give it some credence.

In a Force battle? No. Because he won't have a lightsaber.

Given your arguments, Faunus, I have but one question: is it your testimony that Windu would likely not defeat Sidious in a rematch? Because it is the general consensus (by even myself) that he could. You seem to imply that Dooku is capable of eliminating Windu in an all out fight with the Force, but if that were the case, so would Sidious, since he's more powerful than Dooku himself.

Where is any of this canonically stated?

It's common knowledge. Juyo is a combination of all the main Forms, and the rest is obvious.

"If that somehow leaves room for an implication that Mace could be a Soresu master, we must have different understandings of the English language."

It doesn't leave room for the implication that he isn't a Soresu Master.

I didn't say Dooku would be able to use it against him; I said Mace wouldn't be able to use it against Dooku. Read.

I know what you said, and I already explained that he could.

"I don't see why you'd even bother arguing this; Niman got a bad rep because it's taught to those who wish to emphasize diplomacy over skills with a lightsaber; it teaches the Jedi pieces of the major forms, excluding Juyo, without ever allowing them to capitalize on any one strength. This is why so many Jedi died at Geonosis; you think an army of AotC Obi-Wans or Kit Fistos would have had so many deaths in such a short amount of time?"

When you capitalize on a single strength you exclude the others, thus breeding weakness in your technique, and the Jedi that used it were green, inexperienced and almost half of them Padawans.
The Form had almost nothing to do with their deaths. Their overall experience and their enviorment sealed their fates.
I wouldn't expect copies of more powerful and experienced Jedi like Fisto and Kenobi to be killed in the same manner.

"Not that I'm contesting it, but where is this stated?"

Everyone knows Jango Fett was one of the Greatest Mandalorian warriors to ever live, and the technique he employed is why you didn't read about Jedi Knights effortlessly killing Mandalorian warriors in the Mandalorian Wars.
Funnily, my dad who is an ex-Ranger pointed at the screen the first time he watched AotC with me and said, "See him fire his pistol? He's timing those shot's."
If you've got more firearms experience than a Ranger in the United States Military please, feel free to let me know.
(By the way watch that scene again for yourself just so you can be sure)

"See the above..."

Exactly, re-read what I wrote. Read it as many times as it takes for it to sink in.

"Some level of proficiency" was enough to train advanced droids to successfully take on Jedi Knights. "

Yes it was, that and their lightsaber-proofed weapons and computerized-reflexes also played a tiny role.

"Once this is backed up as I requested earlier, I'll give it some credence. "

Re-read my post. I gave all the information you need.

"In a Force battle? No. Because he won't have a lightsaber."

He won't need one. If he can pick up a steamcrawler weighing many tons and tier it into place, then he can contest with Dooku's TK.
If not, he only has to simply close his fist and turn Dooku's insides to confetti.

Originally posted by Gideon
Given your arguments, Faunus, I have but one question: is it your testimony that Windu would likely not defeat Sidious in a rematch? Because it is the general consensus (by even myself) that he could. You seem to imply that Dooku is capable of eliminating Windu in an all out fight with the Force, but if that were the case, so would Sidious, since he's more powerful than Dooku himself.

Good point, Gideon.

That won't quite cut it; Faunus wants to know where it's specifically stated that Jango "coined the technique in question".

It's kind of an obvious point, like how a human being breathes air instead of say, methane.

Also, If Mandalorians didn't time their shots through the defenses of a lightsaber's blade they would either have to shoot through the blades or be killed.
Since they haven't been, the former is obvious.
That and I don't think 20 years of experience in the United States Military is going to be wrong.

I have to go now, so I'll respond to whatever comments Faunus has tomorrow, and If it turns out he has more experience in the military than my father I'm going to go ahead and salute him in advance, just to be safe.

*Salutes* usaflag

Bye!

You'll pardon me, but your father's experience means absolute shit to this argument.

Edit: Would it be easy to assume that, after 20 years in the military, your father would be able to master the edit function on a simple set of forums? If so, it's a trait that apparently didn't find its way into your gene pool.

Originally posted by Gideon
Given your arguments, Faunus, I have but one question: is it your testimony that Windu would likely not defeat Sidious in a rematch?I think it could go either way, depending primarily on location. If Mace could trap Sidious in a duel like he did in RotS, in a manner where he could offensively cut loose, he'd probably win every time. But his chances of victory start eroding tremendously once the Sith Lord starts tossing out the Force attacks; by his own volition, Mace felt that Sidious' lightning was "beyond Vaapad."

Edit: Escape covered the second part of my reply fairly completely. As for the rest, Starbuck, I won't be replying to your "arguments" until you stop pulling garbage out of your ass.

Originally posted by Master_Starbuck
It's kind of an obvious point, like how a human being breathes air instead of say, methane.

Also, If Mandalorians didn't time their shots through the defenses of a lightsaber's blade they would either have to shoot through the blades or be killed.

I highly doubt that in the middle of the battle the mandalorians had sufficient time to to time their shots, the more likely explanation is that the Mandalorians used superior numbers to overwhelm the jedi. As the clones (which are descents of the mandalorians being clone from one and relieved similar training.) and the battle droids do throughout the clones wars.

Originally posted by Gideon
You'll pardon me, but your father's experience means absolute shit to this argument.

Edit: Would it be easy to assume that, after 20 years in the military, your father would be able to master the edit function on a simple set of forums? If so, it's a trait that apparently didn't find its way into your gene pool.

Lol. I was actually joking, not about my father's experience, but about the saluting part. I was going to say that my answer on the timed shots was kind of obvious, but that It was Faunus' right to object, and that I respected his opinion.

I have to say to you Gideon that demeaning my father's experience is personally insulting to me.
My father received a master marksmanship medal in Berlin for receiving top scores at his jump school.
With 20 years of using every weapon our country devised in combat maneuvers, I would say that would give him just about enough experience to have some valuable opinion on whether a gun functions in a certain way or not.
He pointed out to me physically Jango's actions on the screen and said he managed to strike the Jedi Master because he timed the shots through the target zones covered by the blade.
With his special forces knowledge, I'd be inclined to believe him.

If you have a problem with the word of a veteran, perhaps you should go meet with a couple and inform them of how they're opinion means shit to you.

See how many teeth you have left by the time you regain consciousness.

You should have more respect for our men and women in uniform than to say something so brash. Shame on you. pissed

Originally posted by Faunus
I think it could go either way, depending primarily on location. If Mace could trap Sidious in a duel like he did in RotS, in a manner where he could offensively cut loose, he'd probably win every time. But his chances of victory start eroding tremendously once the Sith Lord starts tossing out the Force attacks; by his own volition, Mace felt that Sidious' lightning was "beyond Vaapad."

Edit: Escape covered the second part of my reply fairly completely. As for the rest, Starbuck, I won't be replying to your "arguments" until you stop pulling garbage out of your ass.

Well it turns out Sidious lightning wasn't beyond Vapaad seeming as how you reflected it back every time until Anakin's betrayal.
And your already aware of the fact that due to a good amount of evidence I provided Mace's TK is roughly as strong as Dooku's, and then of course there is the insta-kill Force-Crush.

As for escape, I had to go to my little sister's recital and couldn't get back to reply until it was late and had to go to bed to get up for my job in the morning.
If you don't live in your mother's basement and have one, then you probably know how that is.

In terms of escape, this is your way of escaping a losing argument with me. I obviously proved all your prior arguments wrong so your just going to latch onto the observation that Jango Fett obviously timed his shot's through Trebor Coleman's lightsaber defense.

Like the above post I was going to say that I respect your opinion and that it's your right to believe what you want to, but I'd have to say at this point that is ridiculously obvious that the shots were timed.

As for pulling garbage out of ones ass, you've pulled more garbage out of your ass than than I have. I've had to brief you on things you already should have known about Jedi before bringing a futile argument to me.

If you want to use this as a little excuse to cover your ass, then I'll except this as a concession of defeat from you.

If you feel your up to the task of debating with me rather than trying to find a way out of losing, you can let me know.

Otherwise I accept your defeat.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
I highly doubt that in the middle of the battle the mandalorians had sufficient time to to time their shots, the more likely explanation is that the Mandalorians used superior numbers to overwhelm the jedi. As the clones (which are descents of the mandalorians being clone from one and relieved similar training.) and the battle droids do throughout the clones wars.

Actually timing ones shot's in the middle of a firefight is second-nature to a soldier that spent countless months or years honing it in the field.

Mandalorian's did use overwhelming numbers to destroy Jedi in battle, however If that was they're only way of killing Jedi they wouldn't be the renowned fighters they are.
They can decimate Jedi numbers because they know how and when to fire just right to kill a Jedi, such of course as Jango Fett did to take out an experienced Jedi Master.

Clones and especially the A.R.C.s are trained to be specially accurate and well-timed when using blasters.

Mace 13 Dooku O

When it get's to 15 I'll declare Mace the winner, unless someone can manage to bring an argument to prove otherwise.

I'm slightly embarrassed that one of our army's finest can generate offspring incapable of mastering the edit function on a set of forums. Newsflash: there is no need for you to make multiple posts unless you've surpassed the posting limit (which you haven't). You're wasting space and REX doesn't like that.

As far as your father is concerned, get your head out of his ass. I didn't insult him, I said a simple fact: his experience means shit to this argument. He's not a character in the movies, he's not George Lucas, he's not the omniscient narrator of a novelization. His opinion, accomplishments, and existence is completely and utterly without purpose in this debate.

I don't care about Edit functions, so go whine to someone else about that.

I'm aware that he isn't a character in Star Wars, but even soldiers in Star Wars time their shots. That much is obvious, and what I pointed out about Jango Fett doesn't convey canon or not convey it, it's just a simple obvious observation.

So get over it.

Originally posted by Master_Starbuck
I don't care about Edit functions, so go whine to someone else about that.

You're breaking rules and being generally annoying. This will likely get you banned, and then you can go tell daddy that you were booted off of an online forum because you refused to listen to the rules. Given that the military focuses on extreme discipline and obedience, perhaps it will prepare you for your supposed deployment to Iraq.

So, stow it soldier and do as commanded.

Originally posted by Master_Starbuck
Well it turns out Sidious lightning wasn't beyond Vapaad seeming as how you reflected it back every time until Anakin's betrayal.Sidious faked the lightning sequence. As in, he wasn't going all-out. George Lucas agrees.

But of course, I guess we have to check with your dad first.

You completely ignored my earlier rebuttal while accusing me of intentionally leaving things out.

In other words, and continuing a long, irksome pattern, you've proved nothing.

Which wouldn't work on Dooku, who is a Sith Lord of at least equal power and considerably greater familiarity with Dark side techniques.

I've been asking you for proof to support this since the initial claim was made; there has been none.

And again, if you're basing this on the time it takes to get the attack off, all Dooku has to do is raise a finger, if that.

You're an idiot.

Escape = Gideon's previous username, and the one I knew him by for a year and a half.



Timed? Sure, whatever. I don't care. I asked for proof that the Mandalorians had created techniques specifically designed to shoot past a lightsaber, as you claimed here:

And you give me "my dad's an ex-Ranger, ex-Ranger = expert on Mandalorian warfare + expert on SW canon."

Which makes you a liar, as you demonstrated with several claims that I'll detail later.

You make shit up. Point out one place where I blatantly lied, refused to cite a source, or used my dad as canon - which is ironic, because you accused me of doing the same with Janus - and I'll concede. Meanwhile, I'll point out what you conveniently skipped over.





Then there's the whole Mando thing, which spans the last dozen or so posts.

If you learn to debate, you can let me know.

Otherwise, STFU.

I think we might be underestimating the Count here.
I think Mace would win, but I expected somebody to vote for
the Count. He held his own against Yoda for a few minutes and
THAT is impressive. Is there ANYONE that thinks the Count can/
will win?

There. I voted for Dooku.

Truth is, I don't think his chances of defeating Mace are all that high, thanks in full to Vaapad and the shatterpoint ability. But if people are saying Obi-Wan has a fairly significant chance of pulling off a win against Windu, I fail to see why Dooku - a far more skilled and powerful opponent - wouldn't have a shot.

Originally posted by Faunus
There. I voted for Dooku.

Truth is, I don't think his chances of defeating Mace are all that high, thanks in full to Vaapad and the shatterpoint ability. But if people are saying Obi-Wan has a fairly significant chance of pulling off a win against Windu, I fail to see why Dooku - a far more skilled and powerful opponent - wouldn't have a shot.

well the argument for Obi-Wan having a shot against Mace is being a smarter fighter. and the fact that if he can hold off Anakin for so long, then why not Mace. Anakin being a More Powerful Sith Lord than Dooku was.

But your right Dooku defo has more than just a shot at Mace. He manhandled Sora Bulq while taking out Tholme with a Force Push, and then finishing Bulq with Force Lightning.

Mace had trouble against Bulq on his own.

Force Lightning not only gives Dooku the edge without Sabers, but even gives him a chance against Mace with a Saber.

and in dueling Dookus no slouch, being the unrivalled master of Makashi, the best blade to blade combat form from forms 1-6 at least.

and please stop with this Force Crush nonesense.. Mace is NOT going to Force Crush Dooku!!! Obi-Wan also uses Force Crush against Durge... so what??? whats the big deal?? when someone uses it agianst another Force User then ill be impressed...

but so far the only ones whom seemed to manhandle other Force users just using the Force are Dooku and Anakin. Anakin against Ventress, and Dooku against Obi-Wan and Ventress.

So the chances of Mace manhandling Dooku with the Force by doing something like a Force Crush on him is very slim, and there is no evidence anywhere to suggest he could.

Originally posted by Gideon
You're breaking rules and being generally annoying. This will likely get you banned, and then you can go tell daddy that you were booted off of an online forum because you refused to listen to the rules. Given that the military focuses on extreme discipline and obedience, perhaps it will prepare you for your supposed deployment to Iraq.

So, stow it soldier and do as commanded.


As I said, go wine to someone else about it, cupcake.

And I don't think that my dad would care about some nerd giving me lip on a forum, actually I think it's an irony that I protect the very freedom for you to sit on your rear in your mom's basement and act like your Miss Thang to me over a computer.

I don't take orders from little girls, unless you want to show me how your gonna get me to stow it.

Originally posted by Master_Starbuck
As I said, go wine to someone else about it, cupcake.

And I don't think that my dad would care about some nerd giving me lip on a forum, actually I think it's an irony that I protect the very freedom for you to sit on your rear in your mom's basement and act like your Miss Thang to me over a computer.

I don't take orders from little girls, unless you want to show me how your gonna get me to stow it.

Originally posted by Master_Starbuck
As I said, go wine to someone else about it, cupcake.

I try to not drink wine when I eat my cupcakes. Perhaps you meant 'whine'?



Nerd? First, you misspell a simple word and then bust out dated insults? If you're going to do some verbal sparring, Corporal, try to be original.



Mom's living room, actually, and please understand that the way I act on the internet is the same way I act face-to-face. And how exactly are you protecting my rights? Breaking rules on a forum, acting like the poster child for the Special Olympics, and then trying to save face by throwing up dated, useless banter?



Girls? Nerd? Oh, dear Lord. Perhaps Sarcasm: 101 or Introduction to Banter ought to be included in your basic training, soldier?

LOL

Originally posted by Gideon
I try to not drink wine when I eat my cupcakes. Perhaps you meant 'whine'?

LOL...




Did you actually sniff with indignation in real life when you said that?





First, I don't care about your rules, you need to get a life - and a girlfriend.
And as far as being a mongoloid goes, your doing a far better job than I ever could, I mean, you actually talk like a geek and a goober all at once.



That's it, flap around and act like a girl. LOL!
Why don't you join and find out? If you have the kahonas that is. wink3

I think you'd rather hang around on your computer all day and act like you have a testosterone deficiency. hysterical

C'mon, you going to think up some pseudo-witty response or what?

I think after two more votes I'll declare the winner here.

Originally posted by Gideon
Given your arguments, Faunus, I have but one question: is it your testimony that Windu would likely not defeat Sidious in a rematch? Because it is the general consensus (by even myself) that he could. You seem to imply that Dooku is capable of eliminating Windu in an all out fight with the Force, but if that were the case, so would Sidious, since he's more powerful than Dooku himself.

well Lucas confirms in the ROTS audio commentary that Sidious was faking being weak with his Force Lightning. add this to the fact that from the scene Mace was struggling to hold on to his lightsaber and was forced to let go with one hand just before Sidious stopped(stopped because he was pretending to be weak in front of Anakin).

also add this to the ROTS novel stating how Mace's blade was being forced back to his own face, and he was really struggling to hold on and also Mace felt this was beyond Vapaad!!

putting this together confirms Mace would most likely be overpowered by Sidious's lightning if there was no Anakin there. and that Sidious would most likely win in an all out fight. Therfore the argument that Mace beat Sidious so would beat Dooku does not apply.

Although it does show Mace would most likely have the advantage in Saber dueling as Mace won the Saber duel agianst Sidious fair and Square.

Originally posted by Gideon
You're breaking rules and being generally annoying. This will likely get you banned, and then you can go tell daddy that you were booted off of an online forum because you refused to listen to the rules. Given that the military focuses on extreme discipline and obedience, perhaps it will prepare you for your supposed deployment to Iraq.

So, stow it soldier and do as commanded.

I just read this. AHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH

Necromancy! *reports*

Originally posted by Darth Maliko
He held his own against Yoda for a few minutes More like 30 seconds.

dooku would beat mace in all three 70% of the time he has better skills in lightsaber and force and it has been stated before

And Vapaad and Shatterpoint mean nothing?

Originally posted by onewiththeforce
dooku would beat mace in all three 70% of the time he has better skills in lightsaber and force and it has been stated before

In all three? Maybe in lightsaber combat, but in terms of force powers. 70% of the time? No way.

I don't see how Dooku wins any.

He doesn't.

I didn't read the entire thread, but didn't Mace Windu beat DARTH SIDIOUS? A > B > C?

Yeah but Sidious was technically pretty lacking with a lightsaber, having no real practise with the weapon for over a decade according to Gideon. He was essentially very powerful in the Force, and relatively speaking not very skilled with a lightsaber, maximising the advantages Windu gains through Vaapad and Shatterpoint.

S = Shatterpoint
V = Vaapad
L = Lightsaber Skill
D = Dark Side Power

The higher L is, the lower S is.
The higher D is, the higher V is.
Ergo, the higher D is with respect to L, the higher S + V is.
The higher L is with respect to D, the lower S + V is.

Dooku's D with respect to L is much lower than it is for Sidious, and as such S + V would be much lower against him than it would be against Sidious.

Originally posted by Balmung
Yeah but Sidious was technically pretty lacking with a lightsaber, having no real practise with the weapon for over a decade according to Gideon. He was essentially very powerful in the Force, and relatively speaking not very skilled with a lightsaber, maximising the advantages Windu gains through Vaapad and Shatterpoint.

Sidious stood up to Yoda in lightsaber combat.

Yoda himself was very much like Sidious; powerful in the Force, out of practise with the lightsaber.

I may consider dropping the blanket ban on you, Nebaris. So far, you haven't been acting infantile or retarded, but mature and intelligent. Keep it up and REX may not ban you, and you will take your place in our society.

Fail me and you shall pay the price.

Originally posted by Gideon
I may consider dropping the blanket ban on you, Nebaris. So far, you haven't been acting infantile or retarded, but mature and intelligent. Keep it up and REX may not ban you, and you will take your place in our society.

Fail me and you shall pay the price.

Who are you talking to? No me: I don't even know a thing about Revan other than that he was a powerful sith a great tactician that invaded the republic, lost his memory and became good...

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Who are you talking to? No me: I don't even know a thing about Revan other than that he was a powerful sith a great tactician that invaded the republic, lost his memory and became good...

Nebaris = Balmung. A former outcast and someone whom we were on the verge of excising from the very history of the world! For some reason, he's acting more civilized rather than a loser (like resident fatties Blaxican or Faunus).

I believe Mace would be victorious. Dooku could probably have taken him a little earlier in his career (Apparently, he did) but at this point, I think Mace exceeds him in swordplay.

Originally posted by Forum Ninja
I believe Mace would be victorious. Dooku could probably have taken him a little earlier in his career (Apparently, he did) but at this point, I think Mace exceeds him in swordplay.

Seconded.

The problem is, OOU, how gay it is that Windu -- who is no Yoda -- could defeat both leaders of the Confederacy. Weakens your villains, in my opinions.

It's quite embarrassing for the villains, I tell you that much.

Originally posted by Forum Ninja
It's quite embarrassing for the villains, I tell you that much.

Don't watch TCW. Kit Fisto defeats General Grievous.

Defeats ? Like fair and square ?

Yep.

It shouldn't be nonsensical. Different opponents react differently with each other. The geography is different, the emotions are different, the styles are different, etc.

I could go on, nitpick and sling out a thousand different things that contribute to a battle being different each time with varying opponents.

Originally posted by Gideon
Don't watch TCW. Kit Fisto defeats General Grievous. Ugh. Gay.

Kit got lucky, Grievous must have had a techno-cold or something.

When doesn't he have a techno cold? The prick coughs all the time.

Regardless, Kit had enough skill to defeat him. It's canon and I don't think it's luck.

I'd attribute Kenobi's victory against Grievous in ROTS to be closer towards luck.

Originally posted by Genesis
When doesn't he have a techno cold? The prick coughs all the time.

Regardless, Kit had enough skill to defeat him. It's canon and I don't think it's luck.

I'd attribute Kenobi's victory against Grievous in ROTS to be closer towards luck.

Doesn't Grievous have that cough because Mace smashed his chest via Force Push, or something along thsoe lines.

Originally posted by Genesis
When doesn't he have a techno cold? The prick coughs all the time.

Regardless, Kit had enough skill to defeat him. It's canon and I don't think it's luck.

I'd attribute Kenobi's victory against Grievous in ROTS to be closer towards luck.

I wouldn't say Obi's victory was luck. I mean, he had a lot of luck fighting Maul and Anikan, but winning against Grievous wasn't.

Originally posted by mattatom
Doesn't Grievous have that cough because Mace smashed his chest via Force Push, or something along thsoe lines.
Force crush.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Force crush.

Thanks Nemesis, always there to correct me.

I'm a helper!

Originally posted by Gideon
For some reason, he's acting more civilized rather than a loser (like resident fatties Blaxican or Faunus). No.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
I wouldn't say Obi's victory was luck. I mean, he had a lot of luck fighting Maul and Anikan, but winning against Grievous wasn't.

Anakin was one of the fights where he dominated using raw skill. With Grievous, he was hanging off the edge of a platform and force pulled that blaster just in time.

He was lucky that Anakin wasn't focused, made a stupid mistake and had the area to his advantage. It would have been totally different in a place like Tatooine.

I wouldn't say he 'dominated' the fight. He was being forced back the entire time.

Who's Faunus?

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
He was lucky that Anakin wasn't focused, made a stupid mistake and had the area to his advantage. It would have been totally different in a place like Tatooine.

I wouldn't say he 'dominated' the fight. He was being forced back the entire time.

He was being forced back? Kenobi practices Soresu. It's a style relying heavily on defense. Also, that fight wasn't luck. Anakin was outclassed and outmaneuvered. He lost because of inferior skill. He was fairly even with Kenobi but, eventually, Kenobi gained the upper hand.

Originally posted by Genesis
He was being forced back? Kenobi practices Soresu. It's a style relying heavily on defense. Also, that fight wasn't luck. Anakin was outclassed and outmaneuvered. He lost because of inferior skill. He was fairly even with Kenobi but, eventually, Kenobi gained the upper hand.


False.
Insofar as he lost, it was due to the environmental the fight took place in and the psychological trauma he had just experienced. I think it is obvious that he was overconfident, arrogant and foolish. It was not a lack of skill that cost him the day.

From the RotS novelization:
Anakin is equal or superior to Kenobi:







Tactics start to matter:







Their physical capabilities appear to be nearly identical, with Anakin's superior strength being compensated for by Obi-Wan's greater tactical awareness. In an open field (or a SWVF match) Anakin would beat Obi-Wan. Anakin's superior prowess is visible during the first half of the fight where Obi-Wan is struggling to keep up. It is only when tactics begin to matter (as on the rope/cable portion of the duel) that Kenobi begins to hold his own.

Anakin didn't lose because Kenobi was better than him, he lost because Kenobi was smarter than him. That benefit isn't always applicable.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
False.
Insofar as he lost, it was due to the environmental the fight took place in and the psychological trauma he had just experienced. I think it is obvious that he was overconfident, arrogant and foolish. It was not a lack of skill that cost him the day.

From the RotS novelization:
Anakin is equal or superior to Kenobi:







Tactics start to matter:







Their physical capabilities appear to be nearly identical, with Anakin's superior strength being compensated for by Obi-Wan's greater tactical awareness. In an open field (or a SWVF match) Anakin would beat Obi-Wan. Anakin's superior prowess is visible during the first half of the fight where Obi-Wan is struggling to keep up. It is only when tactics begin to matter (as on the rope/cable portion of the duel) that Kenobi begins to hold his own.

Anakin didn't lose because Kenobi was better than him, he lost because Kenobi was smarter than him. That benefit isn't always applicable.

Thank you.

*environment*

I forgot to change the form of the word from the initial draft.
I also have a fever. On spring break!



Slash, you're welcome.

SPRING BREAK



is for those who can afford it.

RN's post says "last edited by Master Crimzon." WTF?

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
False.
Insofar as he lost, it was due to the environmental the fight took place in and the psychological trauma he had just experienced. I think it is obvious that he was overconfident, arrogant and foolish. It was not a lack of skill that cost him the day.


You were doing good. You had quite an effective post. Then, you said that Anakin lost due to the environment of the fight and his psychological state.

Well, Kenobi was in that environment too and I'm sure having all of your Jedi colleagues get dwarfed AND watching your apprentice choke out his wife and betray you isn't all that psychologically damaging. Kenobi had the same pressure and fought just as valiantly as Anakin. Actually, enough to defeat him. Anakin made a mistake. Any one person with good lightsaber skill does not make a mistake.

Kenobi gained the upper hand and used a tactical advantage to ravage his opponent. In my opinion, he has more skill and is particularly efficient under extreme pressure.

Originally posted by Genesis
You were doing good. You had quite an effective post. Then, you said that Anakin lost due to the environment of the fight and his psychological state.

Well, Kenobi was in that environment too and I'm sure having all of your Jedi colleagues get dwarfed AND watching your apprentice choke out his wife and betray you isn't all that psychologically damaging. Kenobi had the same pressure and fought just as valiantly as Anakin. Actually, enough to defeat him. Anakin made a mistake. Any one person with good lightsaber skill does not make a mistake.

Kenobi gained the upper hand and used a tactical advantage to ravage his opponent. In my opinion, he has more skill and is particularly efficient under extreme pressure.

Oh, yeah. Kenobi definitely had the same problems. What with killing one of his mentors and role models, massacring younglings and his colleagues... oh wait. Anakin's mind**** was definitely more severe. I'm not going to argue that Kenobi was pristine to begin with, but he definitely had it easier than Anakin, whose entire worldview and social foundation had just crumbled.

Anyway, I had been commenting on pure ability at swordplay. Kenobi only won because of the location and Anakin's state of mind (which was obviously clouded- he probably wouldn't have tried the stunt he did in the movie that got him cut up without the mind fogging effects of the Darkside). Kenobi's tactical awareness does not make him a superior swordsman; in any other situation Anakin would have torn him apart even faster. (Kenobi was stuck with using a one-off trick to save his own life- the novelization explicitly says that the electrodrive reverse would only work once.)

Bottom line:
Anakin- superior swordsman
Kenobi- superior tactician

In this situation (plus a little PIS) tactics carried the day.

Originally posted by UltimateStryfe


mace is the creator and master of Juyo/Vaapad. and to be as such one must have mastered all the others.




nope... Bruce Lee is the creator of Jeet Kune Do, yet he only mastered Wing Chun. Although he did learn eurpoean boxing, stickfighting, nunchucks etc, he didn't learn tae kwon do, tai chi, or xiaolin qigong. Therefore Mace may have learned all the forms, but nothing shows that he did.

"Form VII, also called Juyo, is the most difficult and demanding of all the forms. Only high-level masters of multiple forms can achieve and control this discipline, which can lead to fantastic power and skill."
―Cin Drallig on Juyo

didn't say all the forms..

Originally posted by Eminence
RN's post says "last edited by Master Crimzon." WTF? That's weird. Could it be they... he are really...*gasp*

I'm disappointed that it's the sig.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Oh, yeah. Kenobi definitely had the same problems. What with killing one of his mentors and role models, massacring younglings and his colleagues... oh wait. Anakin's mind**** was definitely more severe. I'm not going to argue that Kenobi was pristine to begin with, but he definitely had it easier than Anakin, whose entire worldview and social foundation had just crumbled.
Have some insight, Red Nemesis. Anakin performed these actions by choice. Kenobi had the entirety of the Jedi stolen from him and was facing someone who he considered to be his brother. This was forced upon him and was probably as equally surprising as it was shocking. Anakin knew that these events were to take place. Shock value = gone.





That's a really poor excuse. The "mind fogging effects" of the dark side? Really? Nothing else came to mind? That doesn't make a lot of sense. Plenty of Sith fight formidably and have been enveloped in the dark side. This isn't why he lost. He lost because of tactical inexperience and an inability to combine tactics with swordplay.

Sure, Anakin was an accomplished duelist. He has amazing skill. Unfortunately, it ends there. He has no tactical awareness when it comes to advantages, defense or timing. That was clear in the film.



No, I think that's bullshit. We don't know what would happen in any other situation. Kenobi might find a different weakness and use some other structure or "high point" to his advantage. You cannot write it in stone that Anakin would win every where else. It's really ignorant.

Originally posted by Genesis
Have some insight, Red Nemesis. Anakin performed these actions by choice. Kenobi had the entirety of the Jedi stolen from him and was facing someone who he considered to be his brother. This was forced upon him and was probably as equally surprising as it was shocking. Anakin knew that these events were to take place. Shock value = gone.
Ok. So it isn't shocking. It is completely destabilizing. Anakin just turned his back on his entire way of life and every single member of his 'family' in the galaxy. Kenobi was still lucid enough to maintain Jedi ideals, even intensifying his devotion to the code: He released his attachment to Anakin immediately before using his tactical superiority to pull the match. He was shaken but his code of ethics was still intact.

Originally posted by Genesis

That's a really poor excuse. The "mind fogging effects" of the dark side? Really? Nothing else came to mind? That doesn't make a lot of sense. Plenty of Sith fight formidably and have been enveloped in the dark side. This isn't why he lost. He lost because of tactical inexperience and an inability to combine tactics with swordplay.
The dark side changes one's perceptions of events. It alters one's estimation of the enemy and of one's own abilities. Put simply, it made Anakin's battle awareness narrower than usual. His mind****ed state hampered him greatly- the choice to take the leap is symptomatic of the whole personality change.

Originally posted by Genesis

Sure, Anakin was an accomplished duelist. He has amazing skill. Unfortunately, it ends there. He has no tactical awareness when it comes to advantages, defense or timing. That was clear in the film.
Timing? Defense? These are aspects of swordplay- something that Anakin excelled in. He did not lose to Kenobi because of a deficiency in his capabilities. At all. For the entire duel he is shown to be dominating his former master. Kenobi didn't have a chance.


Originally posted by Genesis

No, I think that's bullshit. We don't know what would happen in any other situation. Kenobi might find a different weakness and use some other structure or "high point" to his advantage. You cannot write it in stone that Anakin would win every where else. It's really ignorant.
Anakin's skill is superior to Kenobi's. This much is fact: he is overpowering the Jedi for the majority of their duel. Obi-Wan simply isn't as good. You may as well say that Mara Jade would give Caedus a run for his money at any given time. After all, she is a smart fighter too... right? The truth is that neither Mara's awareness nor Kenobi's tactics would put them over the top of their respective enemies on a versus thread. As such, for the purposes of this forum, Kenobi < Skywalker.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis

For the entire duel he is shown to be dominating his former master.




Where was this? I recall only one or two moments were Anakin clearly has the upper hand.

Three places.

Edit: Interesting. Dooku is not the only combatant in RotS to use the Force offensively during a duel. Put that in your pipe and smoke it Gideon!

Oh I see. Kenobi sticking to his moral ideals totally proves he wasn't emotionally stirred by the recent events. Wow, It's like I suddenly understand. Anakin intensified his devotion to a darker code. Darn, this must mean nothing bothered him.

We all know he maintained his Jedi values. Why is it relevant?




He could have successfully accomplished the leap if he performed it properly. It had nothing to do with the dark side clogging his vision. Where is this stated? What evidence do you have that the dark side dampened his abilities in any way? If any way, dark siders get more freedom and ability in their ability. Windu is an example. He actually has to partially tap into the dark side in order to successfully use Vaapad.

Anakin leaped because he's a moron. He didn't leap because the dark side "CL0DED HIZ VISONSZ11\!"




Oh, he excelled in those greatly. Beautiful timing whilst jumping at Kenobi on that particular hill in Mustafar where he lost his limbs. He had an even greater defense against Kenobi's maneuver during the aforementioned climax in the duel.

He did lose to Kenobi because of a failure within his abilities. No, the two were fairly even. If he had dominated him so purely, he would have won. It seems that way due to the defensive nature of Soresu.



No, It's not fact. When someone has a superiority that is glaring, they're victorious. It is clear they're equals until the end. Your quoting of the novel shows bias. What about when Kenobi had Anakin on his back and was ready to lay down his saber upon him? You also mention after they force push EACH OTHER, only emphasizing the part of the novel where Obi Wan suffers pain from the push.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSwy412nttI



Also, It's not fact or Kenobi would be rolling down that hill looking like an unhappy tree stump. His maneuvers during a duel tell us his capability overall as a duelist.



I'm sorry but you lack evidence to back this up. You conclude that because Anakin is a moron, he'd win in any other situation simply because of raw aggressive dueling prowess. I'm sorry but it is strongly ignorant to assume such a thing. Kenobi is good. He combines tactic with skill. It is why he won. What good is Anakin's strengths in lightsaber dueling if he cannot apply it with the atmosphere?

Originally posted by Genesis
Oh I see. Kenobi sticking to his moral ideals totally proves he wasn't emotionally stirred by the recent events. Wow, It's like I suddenly understand. Anakin intensified his devotion to a darker code. Darn, this must mean nothing bothered him.

We all know he maintained his Jedi values. Why is it relevant?
His worldview was still intact. Anakin's wasn't. Anakin was completely out of control- attacking Padme shows that much. Kenobi did not have that disadvantage.

Originally posted by Genesis

He could have successfully accomplished the leap if he performed it properly. It had nothing to do with the dark side clogging his vision. Where is this stated? What evidence do you have that the dark side dampened his abilities in any way? If any way, dark siders get more freedom and ability in their ability. Windu is an example. He actually has to partially tap into the dark side in order to successfully use Vaapad.
Quote me saying that it made him worse. Go ahead. What it did do was cloud his judgment and inflate his ego, causing him to overestimate his capabilities and hamper his decision making process. In a Versus match, where PIS is not considered, Anakin would pull Kenobi apart.

Proof Anakin was overconfident:

I have the high ground Anakin!
You underestimate my power!
Don't try it!

Kenobi cuts him up

Had Anakin been free from the influence of the Dark Side he would not have believed that he could jump over his master; Kenobi clearly knew that Anakin wasn't capable of such a feat, Anakin would have been too.

Originally posted by Genesis

Anakin leaped because he's a moron. He didn't leap because the dark side "CL0DED HIZ VISONSZ11\!"
The movie disagrees:
"You underestimate my power!" implies that Anakin's confidence comes from his new DS power boost.

Originally posted by Genesis

Oh, he excelled in those greatly. Beautiful timing whilst jumping at Kenobi on that particular hill in Mustafar where he lost his limbs. He had an even greater defense against Kenobi's maneuver during the aforementioned climax in the duel.
Yeah, because timing is what got him cut to pieces. It's not like he tried a maneuver that he was incapable of successfully executing because of overconfidence. Yeah, if he had jumped a little sooner (or later!) he definitely would have pulled it off.

Pshaw.

Originally posted by Genesis

He did lose to Kenobi because of a failure within his abilities. No, the two were fairly even. If he had dominated him so purely, he would have won. It seems that way due to the defensive nature of Soresu.

Except that Kenobi's defense was being overloaded: he was 'desperate' to distract Anakin's advance. Later, during their grapple, Anakin nearly broke both his arms. That isn't defense. That's desperation.

Originally posted by Genesis

No, It's not fact. When someone has a superiority that is glaring, they're victorious. It is clear they're equals until the end. Your quoting of the novel shows bias. What about when Kenobi had Anakin on his back and was ready to lay down his saber upon him? You also mention after they force push EACH OTHER, only emphasizing the part of the novel where Obi Wan suffers pain from the push.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSwy412nttI

From your own source:

1:14- Anakin comes close to making Kenobi eat his own saber
1:58- The Force push sends them both flying but Anakin gets up before Obi-Wan and is on him almost before he stands up
2:22- Kenobi takes another kick to the face, putting Anakin one-up (before they had been tied for hits)
2:58- Kenobi takes a savage backhand
3:05- they grapple, the book indicates that Kenobi's arms nearly break
6:07- Anakin actually manages to jump over his master to get onto the platform
6:40- He tries it again, this time with Kenobi in possession of the 'high ground'... it ends poorly

The only time that Anakin's dueling style was inferior to Kenobi's was when his newfound (or at least intensified) arrogance got the better of him. He is better than Kenobi.

Originally posted by Genesis

Also, It's not fact or Kenobi would be rolling down that hill looking like an unhappy tree stump. His maneuvers during a duel tell us his capability overall as a duelist.
So you disagree that Anakin was in an altered state of mind? You disagree that his fall to the Dark Side changed his estimation of his own abilities? You would argue that Kenobi is the superior swordsman? That is just foolish. Anakin's superior performance during the duel with Dooku and his sheer power during his duel with Kenobi suggest that he is the better swordsman. Kenobi simply couldn't handle him- he had to use other talents and environmental factors to come out on top. In a versus match we generally don't consider environmental factors or PIS in the outcome. Thus, Kenobi < Anakin.


Originally posted by Genesis

I'm sorry but you lack evidence to back this up. You conclude that because Anakin is a moron, he'd win in any other situation simply because of raw aggressive dueling prowess. I'm sorry but it is strongly ignorant to assume such a thing. Kenobi is good. He combines tactic with skill. It is why he won. What good is Anakin's strengths in lightsaber dueling if he cannot apply it with the atmosphere?
Atmosphere? What?

Anakin is the superior swordsman. This is not contestable: his showings against Dooku surpass Kenobi's (we have an objective measure of talent: they both fought Dooku so we can compare their results) and he was in a position of superiority for the majority of the duel on Mustafar. Nothing indicates that Kenobi is as good as Anakin- the only reason he won was because of Anakin's state of mind and tactical failings. Kenobi wouldn't have a chance in a neutral environment.

The difference between Obi Wan and Anakin, was that Obi Wan was a lot more strong mentally than Anakin. Anakin was in full rage and unable to tame his emotions. Obi Wan, however was able to control his. I thought this was rather obvious. In Anakin's mind he just knew he was a lot more strong than Obi Wan, and a better fighter.

The only reason Anakin lost was because he made the stupid mistake at the end. Not because Obi Wan was a better fighter, because clearly Anakin was getting the best of him more than he Anakin. Anakin was arrogant and made that stupid move, even after being warned.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
The difference between Obi Wan and Anakin, was that Obi Wan was a lot more strong mentally than Anakin. Anakin was in full rage and unable to tame his emotions. Obi Wan, however was able to control his. I thought this was rather obvious. In Anakin's mind he just knew he was a lot more strong than Obi Wan, and a better fighter.

The only reason Anakin lost was because he made the stupid mistake at the end. Not because Obi Wan was a better fighter, because clearly Anakin was getting the best of him more than he Anakin. Anakin was arrogant and made that stupid move, even after being warned.

QFT

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Had Anakin been free from the influence of the Dark Side he would not have believed that he could jump over his master; Kenobi clearly knew that Anakin wasn't capable of such a feat, Anakin would have been too.


And what would happened in that case? Would Anakin have still ended up in the lava because Kenobi could simply have blocked the access to the bank of the lava-river? Obi-Wan had simply outmanouvered Anakin - which is the entire point here.



Oh wait a second. Obi-Wan's defense doesn't get overloaded when Grievous swings four blades at him with mind blowing speed and superhuman strength. It does get overloaded when Anakin does the same with one lightsaber? I don't think so. And Anakin managed to nearly brake Obi-Wan's arms. I wonder how this is a testament to Anakin's superior swordsman-ship and not caused by his cyborg arm...



I'm afraid. Nick Gillard himself and the RotS novel point out that Anakin and Obi-Wan are equals when it comes to ability with a lightsaber. The difference between them lies in Anakin's offensive strength coupled with his Dark Side emotions. Still: As far as raw bladework is concerned, those two are equals.



And you want to ignore the fact that Kenobi was clearly not feeling well being tasked to kill his brother? In fact when discussing the matter with Yoda, he wanted to go and challenge the Emperor instead (which would most likely have resulted in his certain death) instead of going to kill his best friend. So Kenobi was not troubled in any sense? Him screaming at Anakin and leaving him to die in a lava bath suggests otherwise.



Here it's getting bloody funny.
Superior performance during the duel with Dooku. Let me check. Dooku was instructed not to harm Anakin and knocked Kenobi out while sending Anakin flying through the room with a simple force aided kick. Wow. And of course Anakin also defeated Dooku with superior swordsman-ship. He didn't take advantage of the fact that given into the Dark Side unleashed his full potential for some seconds and then toppled the Sith Lord with superior (cyborg arm and dark side aided) physical strength?

Good to know that.
I might point it out once more: If Anakin utilizes his dark emotions, turning them into Dark side abilities, he is superior to Kenobi in terms of overall combat. Skywalker in his regular shape is Kenobi's equal and Skywalker troubled is inferior to his master, because clearly not having a clear mind.

But this doesn't matter for this discussion here. Anakin unleashing his full power, even for a split second, could potentially defeat any duellist in the PT era, much like DE Luke defeats DE Sidious in a lightsaber duel. That is, however, not a testament to his every-day, every-situation strength, in which he is just an equal to Obi-Wan Kenobi (who would get his ass kicked by the likes of Dooku or Windu). The same would happen to Anakin, unless the cheap plot device of the Dark Side rage kicks in.

And one must love how you attempt to talk Anakin's defeat through Kenobi down as PIS and don't manage to see the fact that Anakin defeating Dooku in RotS was nothing else.



See above. You're plain and simply wrong with your conclusions. You can't compare the performances against Dooku, unless you leave the part out in which Anakin suddenly becomes a force-demigod in order to defeat the Sith Lord. Under normal circumstances, both would get leveled by Dooku (seen in the SW:CW series). That aside, they are equals under normal conditions which may spawn from the fact that they practiced thousands of hours against each other. In that very fight on Mustafar, Anakin was hindered by his emotions, yes. Still. Unless assuming his demi-godlike force rage "the Zone" state, Anakin isn't superior to Kenobi.

Where was Dooku instructed not to harm Anakin? And Nick Gillard isn't a credible source.

(Of course, if we do use him, I get to use his statement that Sidious is a master of every form and every weapon and other fellating statements, so it's a win-win situation for me)

Originally posted by Gideon
Where was Dooku instructed not to harm Anakin?


RotS novel and LoE. Not that it matters, as we see that Anakin, even close to RotS (SW:CW - duel on Tatooine) is not able to defeat Dooku, means his every-day skill is clearly not enough to pull it off.



I know that your main concern is to fellate Sidious, Master Fanboy. I don't care but I wonder where the "win win situation" can be found. Taking a single statement from a source that has back up from other sources, doesn't mean that one has to accept every statement coming from that very source.

That the bible is correct when it comes to some historical facts doesn't mean you have to belief every single word in it, right? I wonder how you managed not to get a grasp on that concept by now...

Could you be a little more specific? By the way, I recall no such statements. Particularly when Dooku dealt critical injury to Anakin before, at the loss of a major limb. In fact, Sidious sarcastically tells Dooku in the novelization (during Dooku's outrage at Anakin's mechanical replacement), "Perhaps you should have spared his real arm, then."



It's actually closer to Attack of the Clones than anything, and Anakin left Dooku on his ass and spared him purely because of concern for Ahsoka. Force-wise, Dooku enjoys an advantage. Saber-wise? Not so much. As the Clone Wars Visual Dictionary says, Dooku revealed the hologram of Ahsoka in order to "regain the upper hand."

That wasn't intended to be a point of contention for you, Nai. I was just commenting that I have no real investment in this argument, because if you win (particularly regarding Gillard), I can use that to my own advantage elsewhere.

In any case, Mister Fanboy isn't that witty. Let's not throw around that particular title, anyways. I don't bring up your career of indiscretions and errors in judgment.

He said "Master" Fanboy, which is much wittier.

Originally posted by Eminence
He said "Master" Fanboy, which is much wittier.

But that's not saying a whole lot. It is cool that he called me master, though.

You're a silly liberal fanboy. That's the worst kind!

Originally posted by Eminence
You're a silly liberal fanboy. That's the worst kind!

Nonsense.

Originally posted by Gideon
Nonsense. You're right. Immigrants are worse.

Originally posted by Gideon
Could you be a little more specific? By the way, I recall no such statements. Particularly when Dooku dealt critical injury to Anakin before, at the loss of a major limb. In fact, Sidious sarcastically tells Dooku in the novelization (during Dooku's outrage at Anakin's mechanical replacement), "Perhaps you should have spared his real arm, then."

From the RotS-novel:
Count Dooku watched with clinical distaste as the blue-scanned images of Kenobi and Skywalker engaged in a preposterous farce-chase, pursued by destroyer droids into and out of turbolift pods that shot upward and downward and even sideways.

"It will be," he said slowly, meditatively, as though he spoke only to
himself, "an embarrassment to be captured by him."
The voice that answered him was so familiar that sometimes his very thoughts spoke in it, instead of in his own. "An embarrassment you can survive, Lord Tyranus. After all, he is the greatest Jedi alive, is he not? And have we not ensured that all the galaxy shares this opinion?"

"Quite so, my Master. Quite so." Again, Dooku sighed. Today he felt
every hour of his eighty-three years. "It is ... fatiguing, to play the
villain for so long, Master. I find myself looking forward to an honorable captivity."


Apparently, Dooku - according to this bit - thinks that the plan is to get captured by Skywalker. To archieve that, he obviously has to be defeated by Anakin in the first place, which in turn means that he wasn't allowed to use "everything he could" against the young Jedi - and especially not kill or otherwise defeat Anakin.

One could, of course, argue that Dooku did try everything not to get killed in the last seconds of the fight (the novel at least says so) but this would ignore that he is the one that caused Anakin's short journey over to the Dark Side which was that enabled him to defeat the Sith Lord. A task he and Kenobi were clearly not suited for under normal circumstances.

So every claim to saber fame actually clings to the question whether Anakin is in "the zone" or not. If he's not - and not motivated to go there - he is on par with Kenobi, no matter if he attempts to control his emotions (which weakens him because he has to focus on that task) or is controlled by them (which weakens him because he can't think clearly in that case) - which is both obvious from RotS.



Well. You're correct there. The original CW cartoon made Anakin's promotion to Jedi Knight level appear later in the war. My mistake.



And I can tell you once again: Before coming up with the hologram, Dooku floored Anakin twice. In fact Anakin is still sitting on his ass when Dooku takes it out. So where had Dooku to regain the upper hand? His position looks superior to Anakin's - who sitting on his ass, clearly not ready to fight from there. So Dooku must be the first being able to regain the upper hand from a superior position.

And Anakin only manages to put Dooku on his ass because the Sith Lord was holding his lightsaber in his left hand, and the hologram in his main weapon hand, which didn't allow him to keep on duelling with maximum effort, nor use force powers efficiently.



And I just told you, why that wouldn't work. Please don't tell me that you still didn't get the point.



It wasn't my intention to be witty. I was merely repeating what you said before. You want to use statements fellating Sidious, which means you want to fellate Sidious, which turns you into a fanboy. The mere fact that you call them "fellating statements" yourself should, technically, prevent you from using them.

And my "career of indiscretions and errors in judgement"? I'd love to see the products of your fantasy regarding that point. Apparently my various lectures to you regarding my style of debating have still not reached you. Sometimes I wonder if you're simply immune to data-input from the outside.

Unfortunately Nai is right here. He was holding the hologram with one hand while fighting Anakin off with the other, and Anakin finally got past his defenses.

That was the world's longest concession. I'm not arguing this point, Nai, which is where I think you're deluding yourself. I simply asked for some evidence that proved your claim. You have failed to provide any. Which is fine, it doesn't really disprove your argument with Red Nemesis, but nowhere was Dooku under orders not to harm Anakin; particularly in light of the fact that he already dealt Skywalker a critical injury years earlier. Sidious was testing both of their skills without any of them being the wiser, his instruction to Dooku in Labyrinth of Evil being: "But above all, you must make the contest appear real."

Once more, on the subject of both Nick Gillard and visual guides, you don't get to pick what evidence to use and discard the rest. The bottom line is that if he is an authority on Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker, he is an authority on the skills and power of Darth Sidious. It is not up for debate. And the visual guide says that he used the hologram to "regain the upper hand," another point you aren't free to argue.

But like I said, I'm not in this argument. Just needling you for clarification and pointing out, regardless of the outcome, I win.

Originally posted by Gideon
That was the world's longest concession. I'm not arguing this point, Nai, which is where I think you're deluding yourself. I simply asked for some evidence that proved your claim. You have failed to provide any. Which is fine, it doesn't really disprove your argument with Red Nemesis, but nowhere was Dooku under orders not to harm Anakin; particularly in light of the fact that he already dealt Skywalker a critical injury years earlier. Sidious was testing both of their skills without any of them being the wiser, his instruction to Dooku in Labyrinth of Evil being: "But above all, you must make the contest appear real."


Was Dooku, operating according to the mentioned plan, allowed to defeat Skywalker?

No.

Thanks. Everything else I stated follows directly from that point as Skywalker has to be in a condition to capture the Count. That clearly excludes any attempts of inflicting real damage to Anakin, because that would foil the plan more effectively than not "appearing real". Which means that even to come up with a contest that appears real, Anakin wouldn't be in a contest that is real. Small difference, great effect.





Sometimes I wonder if you are really that incapable of actual reasoning. Every single claim of a source can be threated differently. So yes. You can pick evidence regarding a specific issue and ignore the same source on others if you have reasons to do so.

As I said before: If there is verification of a statement made by a specific source or you have reason to thrust said source, you can probably thrust it. With Nick Gillard you have somebody that stated that specific lightsaber forms don't even exists. So quoting him on lightsaber forms would be self-contradiction at it's best.

That aside, I can even threat the same statement differently in different debates. Another thing you haven't understood yet, despite I lectured you on the issue god knows how often. Maybe you should start studying basic philosophy before getting into arguments, hmm?

And what? Of course I'm free to argue the visual guide because it interprets canon material and isn't canon material itself. It can't establish anything, because it's just meta-material dealing with the stuff that canonically happened. And in this special case, the statement from the visual guide simply doesn't make any sense.



And I'm just pointing out that, regardless of what you do, you fail. Which is quite astonishing, considering you should actually have the brain cells to do better. Or was that my "error in judgement" you mentioned earlier?

Dooku can't be superior to Mace. Otherwise:

Dooku > Mace

Obi Wan > Anakin

Anakin > Dooku

Mace > Sidious

Sidious = Yoda

so...

Obi Wan > Anakin > Dooku > Mace > Sidious = Yoda

...

Edited. Let's try this again.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Dooku can't be superior to Mace. Otherwise:

Dooku > Mace

Obi Wan > Anakin

Anakin > Dooku

Mace > Sidious

Sidious = Yoda

so...

Obi Wan > Anakin > Dooku > Mace > Sidious = Yoda

...

A>B>C arguments. One must love them...

Mace > Sidious
Anakin > Mace (sort off)
Obi-Wan > Anakin
Dooku > Obi-Wan

so...

Dooku > Obi-Wan > Anakin > Mace > Sidious = Yoda

Yeah. That appears to make much sense. Not.

Was that your contention?

No.



You're welcome.



Guess you missed the part where I said I wasn't arguing this point and that I was needling you for information? I realize that English isn't your native language, Nai, but really. This is no excuse to completely gloss over certain excerpts of information. For your benefit, I'll post it again:





Well, since you remark on the ability of my braincells later in your diatribe, I'd have to say we both are completely aware of my phenomenal reasoning skills. That is, of course, why you went from fellating both the ancient Sith and Count Dooku to becoming my lackey and grudgingly accepting the fact that Sidious is the greatest of them all. Occasionally, yes, you try to disagree to assert your nonexistent autonomy, but let's be clear, Nai: it's all a farce. We've waged our little battles here and there for years, but the outcome has always been the same. I win. That's why I'm here, and that's why you crawl back to EoD time and time again.

Yes, we all predict the inevitable attempt on your part to be witty, and I'm sure your mastery of words might allow you some notion of humor back in German, but here, your wit is quite literally lost in the translation.



Once again, you're not at liberty to pick and choose what is valid and what isn't. If Nick Gillard is a valued source on Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi in terms of swordsmanship, the same applies for his thoughts on Darth Sidious. You'll have to do much better, Nai, than this.



Nonsense. My victory over you has lasted for years. You come, you fail, you retreat. Rinse and repeat. As in the case of other failed narcissists, you learn neither humility nor reason and persist in coming here hurling insults in your arguments. We don't tolerate this anymore, Nai. Convert or be cast out; those are your only options.



No, those would be within your career of fellating Count Dooku (his superiority over his feared Master was one note of hilarity), the ancient Sith, and eventually Luke Skywalker's feats for TUF.

We're done, Nai. As I said, this isn't an argument I'm involved in. You made an ambiguous claim and I felt it my duty to prod you for information. You failed to provide. Now, go lick your wounds elsewhere. This is my final post on the subject.

Originally posted by Borbarad
A>B>C arguments. One must love them...

Mace > Sidious
Anakin > Mace (sort off)
Obi-Wan > Anakin
Dooku > Obi-Wan

so...

Dooku > Obi-Wan > Anakin > Mace > Sidious = Yoda

Yeah. That appears to make much sense. Not.

How is Anakin > Mace? That was a surprise attack and the two weren't fighting/Mace wasn't excepting it.

He was being sarcastic. For him, it's a coping mechanism to deal with his many defeats.

Anakin > Dooku = Mace

Why doesn't A > B >C work? Is this rock paper siscors or something? If Mace can beat Sidious but can't beat Dooku, then Dooku supporters are claiming that Dooku > Sidious. Soo....

Obi Wan > Anakin > Dooku > Mace > Sidious = Yoda > Dooku (he was beating him in the duel) > Obi Wan > Anakin > Dooku...