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Since in an all out fight, Bane would probably win, its a saber fight. Who wins?

This would be close. One of the best duels ever, imho. Bane is probably similar to ROTS Vader with a blade, but more calm that Vader was on Mustafar... Bane definitely has a chance, just cause Kenobi's saber defense was never breached in ROTS doesn't mean that it can't be.

Bane

Originally posted by tauros
Bane
why do you say this?

For the giggles

Kenobi's Soresu might match up well enough to Djem So but Bane is a level headed fighter.

He is also cunning - something that Anakin never was despite Kenobi's lies in ANH.

Bane does exactly the same thing that he does in his Kas'im fight and Win's due to his vast superiority in the Force. Despite Kenobi's vaunted Soreso mastery Bane kick's his ass even without the force strength. The key to Soreso is to wait for your opponant to get tired, which Bane doesn't. In POD it states that he uses meditation's to destroy his need for sleep.

Also that Bane is Smart, Powerful and a Ruthless combatant would play in.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Bane does exactly the same thing that he does in his Kas'im fight and Win's due to his vast superiority in the Force. Despite Kenobi's vaunted Soreso mastery Bane kick's his ass even without the force strength. The key to Soreso is to wait for your opponant to get tired, which Bane doesn't. In POD it states that he uses meditation's to destroy his need for sleep.

Also that Bane is Smart, Powerful and a Ruthless combatant would play in.

How can he win "due to his vast superiority in the force" if it is sabers only? Bane is good, would beat obi-wan in an all out fight, but this is sabers, and Obi-Wan was stated to be one of the best swordsmen the jedi order had ever seen.

The Force helps you in a saber fight, though, too. It lets you see what your oponent will do next, look microseconds into the future to see wheere your opponent will swing at you. That's how they block each other's blades.

This is like asking which one would win. F-15 or Mig-29.
And both of then WITHOUT targeting computers or radars.

Crude fact is that a modern fighter is nothing without its electronic systems. About as powerful in combat as a jedi is without the Force.

Originally posted by skywalker833
Since in an all out fight, Bane would probably win, its a saber fight. Who wins?
Now is this Bane PoD, middle of RoT, or end of RoT?

Sorry. I kind of just noticed the PoD in the subject.
I think Obi Wan would win this.

Does Bane get a noticeable power-up from middle of RoT to the end, then?

Originally posted by tauros
Does Bane get a noticeable power-up from middle of RoT to the end, then?
what do you mean?

Anyways, this will be a very close match. I might have to say Obi Wan, because of his mastery of soresu. Unless someone convinces me otherwise...

killermovies.kom/forums/f86/t480783.html

It's already been established that Bane thoroughly outclasses Obi-Wan. Bane absolutely dominated Kas'im on equal footing, and he'd do a lot worse to the far less impressive Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by Farfalla
killermovies.kom/forums/f86/t480783.html

It's already been established that Bane thoroughly outclasses Obi-Wan. Bane absolutely dominated Kas'im on equal footing, and he'd do a lot worse to the far less impressive Obi-Wan.
You really do unerestimate obi wan. Did you see the "sabers only", because Obi-Wan was said to be one of the best swordsmen the jedi order had ever seen. He is a master of Soresu, and has a brilliant tactical mind.

Originally posted by Farfalla
killermovies.kom/forums/f86/t480783.html

It's already been established that Bane thoroughly outclasses Obi-Wan. Bane absolutely dominated Kas'im on equal footing, and he'd do a lot worse to the far less impressive Obi-Wan.


i'd like to tiredly reassert a couple of things that i've had to reassert over and over and over, because they simply aren't true.

First bane did not dominate Kas'im. Kas'im dominated Bane, and then bane killed kas'im with the force. its all in the book, its ridiculous to continue to deny it.

2nd. Obi-wan impresses me a lot more than Kas'im. Obi-wan was one of the top Jedi swordsmen of the Clone Wars era, and defeated the chosen one in one on one combat. Kas'im was a higher level Lackey in a Sith Empire comprised mostly of sith so weak that they were totally under mind control of one Sith Lord that was easily dispatched by Bane. What does kas'im ever do (not what does it say about his skills) but what does he ever DO that makes him the least bit impressive (except for defeating Bane, but if you bring that up, you lose the argument on my first point....)

This is true. But lets not bring Kas'im into this.

You do realize your debating against Nebaris so be ready for a potentially big response.

Being that this POD Bane and not ROT this fight will be pretty close and has the potential of going either way as noted with the similiarites between POD Bane and ROTS Anakin's use of Djem So however I do think Bane would be smarter than to try and jump at Obiwan like Anakin did. So I doubt Obiwan would win (if he does at all) would come due to a headstrong mistake from Bane. So I think Obiwan would have to eventually go on the offensive because As Darth Exodus said Bane is very physically fit and probably more so than Obiwan being that he is younger.

It is worth bring up that both of the characters at their current point (POD and ROTS respectively) biggest individual victories have come over two people that they had spent days training with (and in obiwan's case years) so the knowledge of their opponents fighting style certainly came into play.

edit

I can see Obi-Wan taking this, although it could easily go either way.

Originally posted by Farfalla
killermovies.kom/forums/f86/t480783.html

It's already been established that Bane thoroughly outclasses Obi-Wan. Bane absolutely dominated Kas'im on equal footing, and he'd do a lot worse to the far less impressive Obi-Wan.
What's up Noobrais?

Why do you keep calling him Noobrais? It's like Exodus calling Revan "she."

Originally posted by truejedi
i'd like to tiredly reassert a couple of things that i've had to reassert over and over and over, because they simply aren't true.

First bane did not dominate Kas'im. Kas'im dominated Bane, and then bane killed kas'im with the force. its all in the book, its ridiculous to continue to deny it.

2nd. Obi-wan impresses me a lot more than Kas'im. Obi-wan was one of the top Jedi swordsmen of the Clone Wars era, and defeated the chosen one in one on one combat. Kas'im was a higher level Lackey in a Sith Empire comprised mostly of sith so weak that they were totally under mind control of one Sith Lord that was easily dispatched by Bane. What does kas'im ever do (not what does it say about his skills) but what does he ever DO that makes him the least bit impressive (except for defeating Bane, but if you bring that up, you lose the argument on my first point....)

I agree. Bane only won because of his Force strength.
Kenobi has a good chance here

The problem with these "saber only" battles is that the duels only last as long as they do because of the force.

In KOTOR 2 you can fight the mandalorians without the force which makes no sense since saber fights would be over in a matter of seconds if not for it.

Originally posted by darthsith19
What's up Noobrais?
Noobaris is back to suck bane's cock!

skywalker833 thinks he's a joker.

Originally posted by Farfalla
skywalker833 thinks he's a joker.
Just go and suck Bane's cock Noobaris.

Why don't you go suck Kenobi's 2 inch wonder?

I think that you severly overestimate the 'power' of Sereso mastery. So Kenobi has mastered it to a great degree..... So what!!! No one else has ever even been seen using it for Sith's sake!!! It simply does not have the aggresion needed to stand up to the powerful Bane.

And I know that your going to say that Kenobi's defence has been described as 'impenatrable' but let me break it to you, so has Bane's. Bane has even mastered Soreso himself and just about all other form's. In his era Bane took down every top end duelist that he came up against and creamed the best one's personally. And kenobi's defence didn't look that impressive when Dooku smacked him one. Kenobi couldn't even vanquish Ventress, who is undoubtably a knat compared to Bane.

And for your information, the Force play's a big factor in combat. It power's your strikes and give's you speed. This was the reason why Bane was able to dominate the technically skilled Kas'im in the first half of their duel.

At the end of the day Bane is Kenobi's superior in every way. Strength, speed, endurence, tactic's, intelligence, force strength, all go to Bane. And what does Kenobi have. Hair.

That's.

It.

Just one thing Exodus, by PoD Bane didn't master Soresu he was trained it and the other forms as well but it is a bit of stretch to say he mastered one form completely (Djem So) let alone others. He was more likely pretty decent in all forms and if he is smart he could try and switch forms during the duel and pretend to favor Form A then switch to Form B, though Kenobi did this in the opening vs Dooku as it said in the ROTS novel.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Just one thing Exodus, by PoD Bane didn't master Soresu he was trained it and the other forms as well but it is a bit of stretch to say he mastered one form completely (Djem So) let alone others. He was more likely pretty decent in all forms and if he is smart he could try and switch forms during the duel and pretend to favor Form A then switch to Form B, though Kenobi did this in the opening vs Dooku as it said in the ROTS novel.Kenobi's use of it failed miserably, considering it got him put on his ass twenty seconds into the fight, and knocked out cold a short while later.

No, both combatants would do best sticking to their chosen forms of combat. The familiarity both have with eachother's styles - especially Obi-Wan, as he's accustomed to sparring with an extraordinarily powerful, physically adept young man - will make this an extremely long, brutal, and close fight.

*is undecided*

Just because Bane's being madly underrated...

Originally posted by truejedi
i'd like to tiredly reassert a couple of things that i've had to reassert over and over and over, because they simply aren't true.

First bane did not dominate Kas'im. Kas'im dominated Bane, and then bane killed kas'im with the force. its all in the book, its ridiculous to continue to deny it.

I'd suggest reading through Farfalla's post a bit more carefully; in fact, I'll use some insane copying and passage skills for you:

"Bane absolutely dominated Kas'im on equal footing, and he'd do a lot worse to the far less impressive Obi-Wan."

Which is exactly correct -- PoD, Page 242:

"Kas'im lunged in again, and the room was filled with the hiss and hum of lightsabers striking each other half a dozen times in the space of two heartbeats. Bane would have been carved to ribbons had he tried to react to each move individually. Instead he simply called upon the Force, letting it flow through him and guide his hand. He gave himself over to the dark side completely, without reservation. His weapon became an extension of the Force, and he responded to the Twilek's unstoppable attack with an impenetrable defense.

Then he went on the attack. In the past he had always been afraid to surrender his will to the raw emotions that fueled the dark side. Now he had no such limitations; for the first time he was calling on his full potential.

He drove Kas'im back with furious slashes, forcing his old mentor into a backpedaling retreat across the floor of the chamber. Kas'im flipped back and out through the door into the hall beyond, but Bane was relentless in his pursuit, leaping forward and coming within a centimeter of landing a crippling blow to the Twilek's leg.

His strike was turned aside at the last second, but he quickly followed it up with another series of powerful thrusts and stabs. The Blademaster continued to give ground, pushed inexorably back by the raging storm of Bane's onslaught. Each time he tried to change tactics or switch forms, Bane anticipated, reacted, and seized the advantage.

The outcome was inevitable. Bane was simply too strong in the Force. Only some unexpected maneuver could save Kas'im, but they had fought too many times in the past for him to surprise Bane now. Over the course of his training Bane had seen every possible sequence, series, move, and trick with the double-bladed lightsaber, and he knew how to counter and nullify them all.

The Blademaster became desperate. Leaping, spinning, ducking, rolling: he was wild and reckless in his retreat, seeking now only to escape with his life. But he didn't know the Temple like Bane did. Bane kept the routes to the outside cut off, slowly herding his opponent into a dead-end hallway.

Recognizing what was happening, Kas'im blew open the heavy door of a side room with the Force and dived inside. Bane knew there was no other exit, and he paused at the threshold of the room to savor his victory.

The Twi'lek stood in the center of the empty chamber, panting heavily, stooped ever so slightly, his head bowed. He looked up when Bane stepped through the doorway. But when his gaze met Bane's, there was no hint of defeat in his eyes.

"You should have finished me when you had the chance," he said."

As can be seen, Bane was capable of meeting Kas'im's "unstoppable attack with an impenetrable defense," going on the attack and pushing him "inexorably back," "coming within a centimeter of landing a crippling blow to the TwiLek's leg," anticipating and countering every one of Kas'im's attempts to turn the tide of the battle, and in general just being completely dominant to the point where "the outcome was inevitable," and Kas'im began to lose the will to continue, "seeking now only to escape with his life," flat out giving up right at the end and trying to flee, where Bane stops to savour his victory, and both agree that Bane would have been able to finish him off there and then.

So you can babble on all you want, but the fact remains that on equal footing, where neither combatant possessed any kind of advantage over the other, Bane was completely dominant, and very capable of quite easily defeating the Twilek.

Kas'im was only capable of dominating Bane when using an unfamiliar form against him, or rather, a completely alien weapon against him, which he had mastered all seven forms with to extremely high degrees, where he was described to have millions of combinations at his command, all of which were completely unfamiliar to Bane.

But that's entirely irrelevant, as Bane's poor performance against Kas'im is testament to his ability in relation to Kas'im, and he alone (as Kas'im is the only lightsaber user to ever master all seven forms for the Jar'kai style of lightsaber combat), and speaks more for how great a disadvantage Bane was up against, rather than any lack of skill on his part.

What is relevant, when dealing with an opponent who would possess no such advantage over Bane, is his relative level of ability, which is why only the first part of Bane's duel with Kas'im is relevant in this scenario, as it's the only part of their duel where neither possessed any unfair advantage over the other, and the very merits that netted Bane his win against the Twilek would be 100% applicable in a fight against Obi-Wan.



That's great; Kas'im was declared the greatest swordsman of his age, where the Jedi and Sith had been at war with each other for a millennium, where warfare between the two groups were described as "constant," and where Jedi and Sith were more battle hardened, combat orientated, and focused on Jedi versus Sith combat than those of any other era. The omniscient narrator also states that he might have been the greatest swordsman there had ever been.

A little more impressive than being one of the best swordsman of a far less militaristic era, I'd estimate



Quamtify and substamfiate!

Until you can successfully gauge exactly how much potential Anakin had realised by RotS (which is all such a title would support anyway), this constitutes as irrelevant misdirection.



Let's not appeal to ridicule now. Him being a "lacky," or to use a more fitting term, "lightsaber instructor," doesn't speak against his ability, rather, it does the opposite; he was given such a position because he was simply the greatest technical swordsman the Sith had, and "higher up" doesn't quite cut it. Quordis was "higher up." Kopekz was "higher up." Kas'im was - with the exception of Bane - the most powerful Sith of the entire order.

As for them being under Kaan's control, until you can substantiate exactly how that makes them weak, you're reaching a false conclusion. At the end of the day, Kaan was exceptionally powerful; even Bane recognised that, and subtle persuasions through the Force was his talent. That Bane was capable of resisting his powers means little given how powerful Bane actually was - a planetary level powerhouse in fact.

As I said, being the most militaristic Order of Sith there's ever been would indicate that as a collective group, they were extremely powerful.



Technical prowess with the lightsaber: Kas'im spent years mastering all seven forms, and decades perfecting them. Obi-Wan - by his own admission - was only any good with one form. Kas'im smashes him in this category.

Physical Conditioning: Kas'im was described as being extremely physically conditioned, and heavily muscled. Obi-Wan, based on visible evidence, doesn't compare. Even without that, Kas'im's daily and extensive physical activity would suggest that he was easily beyond Obi-Wan in this category, so again, advantage Kas'im.

Force ability: Kas'im was capable of defending against an attack that would have been able to completely decimate his undefended body in an instant. Being a darksider, using his powers defensively likely isn't his forte, making the feat even more impressive. Obi-Wan, on the other hand, is forced to groan out loud when simply pushing a non force sensitive a few dozen feet into the air. Again, advantage Kas'im.

So really, to put it simply, Kas'im beats Obi-wan in all relevant categories, by leagues in one of them (technique), and Bane, on equal footing with the Twilek, due to merits that would be perfectly applicable against obi-wan, absolutely outclassed him, and as I've established, he'd logically do far worse to Obi-Wan.

delete

Honestly, you guys aren't giving Kenobi much credit.

Originally posted by Noobrais
Just because Bane's being madly underrated...



I'd suggest reading through Farfalla's post a bit more carefully; in fact, I'll use some insane copying and passage skills for you:

"Bane absolutely dominated Kas'im on equal footing, and he'd do a lot worse to the far less impressive Obi-Wan."

Which is exactly correct -- PoD, Page 242:

"Kas'im lunged in again, and the room was filled with the hiss and hum of lightsabers striking each other half a dozen times in the space of two heartbeats. Bane would have been carved to ribbons had he tried to react to each move individually. Instead he simply called upon the Force, letting it flow through him and guide his hand. He gave himself over to the dark side completely, without reservation. His weapon became an extension of the Force, and he responded to the Twilek's unstoppable attack with an impenetrable defense.

Then he went on the attack. In the past he had always been afraid to surrender his will to the raw emotions that fueled the dark side. Now he had no such limitations; for the first time he was calling on his full potential.

He drove Kas'im back with furious slashes, forcing his old mentor into a backpedaling retreat across the floor of the chamber. Kas'im flipped back and out through the door into the hall beyond, but Bane was relentless in his pursuit, leaping forward and coming within a centimeter of landing a crippling blow to the Twilek's leg.

His strike was turned aside at the last second, but he quickly followed it up with another series of powerful thrusts and stabs. The Blademaster continued to give ground, pushed inexorably back by the raging storm of Bane's onslaught. Each time he tried to change tactics or switch forms, Bane anticipated, reacted, and seized the advantage.

The outcome was inevitable. Bane was simply too strong in the Force. Only some unexpected maneuver could save Kas'im, but they had fought too many times in the past for him to surprise Bane now. Over the course of his training Bane had seen every possible sequence, series, move, and trick with the double-bladed lightsaber, and he knew how to counter and nullify them all.

The Blademaster became desperate. Leaping, spinning, ducking, rolling: he was wild and reckless in his retreat, seeking now only to escape with his life. But he didn't know the Temple like Bane did. Bane kept the routes to the outside cut off, slowly herding his opponent into a dead-end hallway.

Recognizing what was happening, Kas'im blew open the heavy door of a side room with the Force and dived inside. Bane knew there was no other exit, and he paused at the threshold of the room to savor his victory.

The Twi'lek stood in the center of the empty chamber, panting heavily, stooped ever so slightly, his head bowed. He looked up when Bane stepped through the doorway. But when his gaze met Bane's, there was no hint of defeat in his eyes.

"You should have finished me when you had the chance," he said."

As can be seen, Bane was capable of meeting Kas'im's "unstoppable attack with an impenetrable defense," going on the attack and pushing him "inexorably back," "coming within a centimeter of landing a crippling blow to the TwiLek's leg," anticipating and countering every one of Kas'im's attempts to turn the tide of the battle, and in general just being completely dominant to the point where "the outcome was inevitable," and Kas'im began to lose the will to continue, "seeking now only to escape with his life," flat out giving up right at the end and trying to flee, where Bane stops to savour his victory, and both agree that Bane would have been able to finish him off there and then.

So you can babble on all you want, but the fact remains that on equal footing, where neither combatant possessed any kind of advantage over the other, Bane was completely dominant, and very capable of quite easily defeating the Twilek.

Kas'im was only capable of dominating Bane when using an unfamiliar form against him, or rather, a completely alien weapon against him, which he had mastered all seven forms with to extremely high degrees, where he was described to have millions of combinations at his command, all of which were completely unfamiliar to Bane.

But that's entirely irrelevant, as Bane's poor performance against Kas'im is testament to his ability in relation to Kas'im, and he alone (as Kas'im is the only lightsaber user to ever master all seven forms for the Jar'kai style of lightsaber combat), and speaks more for how great a disadvantage Bane was up against, rather than any lack of skill on his part.

What is relevant, when dealing with an opponent who would possess no such advantage over Bane, is his relative level of ability, which is why only the first part of Bane's duel with Kas'im is relevant in this scenario, as it's the only part of their duel where neither possessed any unfair advantage over the other, and the very merits that netted Bane his win against the Twilek would be 100% applicable in a fight against Obi-Wan.



That's great; Kas'im was declared the greatest swordsman of his age, where the Jedi and Sith had been at war with each other for a millennium, where warfare between the two groups were described as "constant," and where Jedi and Sith were more battle hardened, combat orientated, and focused on Jedi versus Sith combat than those of any other era. The omniscient narrator also states that he might have been the greatest swordsman there had ever been.

A little more impressive than being one of the best swordsman of a far less militaristic era, I'd estimate



Quamtify and substamfiate!

Until you can successfully gauge exactly how much potential Anakin had realised by RotS (which is all such a title would support anyway), this constitutes as irrelevant misdirection.



Let's not appeal to ridicule now. Him being a "lacky," or to use a more fitting term, "lightsaber instructor," doesn't speak against his ability, rather, it does the opposite; he was given such a position because he was simply the greatest technical swordsman the Sith had, and "higher up" doesn't quite cut it. Quordis was "higher up." Kopekz was "higher up." Kas'im was - with the exception of Bane - the most powerful Sith of the entire order.

As for them being under Kaan's control, until you can substantiate exactly how that makes them weak, you're reaching a false conclusion. At the end of the day, Kaan was exceptionally powerful; even Bane recognised that, and subtle persuasions through the Force was his talent. That Bane was capable of resisting his powers means little given how powerful Bane actually was - a planetary level powerhouse in fact.

As I said, being the most militaristic Order of Sith there's ever been would indicate that as a collective group, they were extremely powerful.



Technical prowess with the lightsaber: Kas'im spent years mastering all seven forms, and decades perfecting them. Obi-Wan - by his own admission - was only any good with one form. Kas'im smashes him in this category.

Physical Conditioning: Kas'im was described as being extremely physically conditioned, and heavily muscled. Obi-Wan, based on visible evidence, doesn't compare. Even without that, Kas'im's daily and extensive physical activity would suggest that he was easily beyond Obi-Wan in this category, so again, advantage Kas'im.

Force ability: Kas'im was capable of defending against an attack that would have been able to completely decimate his undefended body in an instant. Being a darksider, using his powers defensively likely isn't his forte, making the feat even more impressive. Obi-Wan, on the other hand, is forced to groan out loud when simply pushing a non force sensitive a few dozen feet into the air. Again, advantage Kas'im.

So really, to put it simply, Kas'im beats Obi-wan in all relevant categories, by leagues in one of them (technique), and Bane, on equal footing with the Twilek, due to merits that would be perfectly applicable against obi-wan, absolutely outclassed him, and as I've established, he'd logically do far worse to Obi-Wan.


wait a minute... all this time, are you saying that Kas'im having a double bladed light saber is an unfair advantage? r u kidding me? if that's what you are saying, then i'm done replying to your posts, ever, because they are based on rubbage.

You didn't have to quote the entire passage to point out one supposed flaw...

And no, that's not what Nebaris is saying at all. Truth is, Bane knew every possible maneuver that Kas'im could pull off with either a single- or double-bladed lightsaber. Which is a staggering achievement, considering said Twi'Lek had mastered all seven major forms of lightsaber combat and then spent decades honing his skills. The only reason Kas'im managed to get the upper hand on Bane was because he had instant access to a form of combat that was completely alien to Bane; the use of two lightsabers. Obi-Wan's not going to be pulling a second lightsaber out of his ass, and even he did he wouldn't be able to use it as masterfully as Kas'im.

Originally posted by Faunus
Kenobi's use of it failed miserably, considering it got him put on his ass twenty seconds into the fight, and knocked out cold a short while later.

Yeah, but that was Dooku putting him on his ass with the Force, he never actually breached Kenobi's defenses with his blade, and this is a saber only fight, so... just sayin'.

Indeed. Bane was a better duelist than Kas'Im. As said before, Kas'Im only bested him in lightsaber combat due to him using a completely alien saber style to him. An advantage, which Kenobi does not have. The fight clearly proves that Bane>Kas'Im.

And even if Kenobi would get two lightsabers, firstly: "Obi-Wan's not going to be pulling a second lightsaber out of his ass, and even he did he wouldn't be able to use it as masterfully as Kas'im."
And secondly, Bane has sure as hell learned to counter two lightsabers after that Kas'Im fight.

Originally posted by tauros
Indeed. Bane was a better duelist than Kas'Im. As said before, Kas'Im only bested him in lightsaber combat due to him using a completely alien saber style to him. An advantage, which Kenobi does not have. The fight clearly proves that Bane>Kas'Im.

And even if Kenobi would get two lightsabers, firstly: "Obi-Wan's not going to be pulling a second lightsaber out of his ass, and even he did he wouldn't be able to use it as masterfully as Kas'im."
And secondly, Bane has sure as hell learned to counter two lightsabers after that Kas'Im fight.
You guys are failing to see something. Bane hadn't fought Kas'im by PoD!

Bane fought Kas'Im in PoD...

Originally posted by skywalker833
You guys are failing to see something. Bane hadn't fought Kas'im by PoD!

WTF u smoking?

Oops, sorry, forgot. Haven't read the book in a while.

Anyway, Kas'im was not that strong in Rots. I wasn't that impressed by him to tell you the truth. I think Obi-Wan could whoop his a$$ if you ask me.

Originally posted by skywalker833
Anyway, Kas'im was not that strong in Rots.

I agree.

He sucked in Rots.

I didn't even notice him.

Originally posted by skywalker833
Anyway, Kas'im was not that strong in Rots. I wasn't that impressed by him to tell you the truth. I think Obi-Wan could whoop his a$$ if you ask me.
Originally posted by Elite Hunter
WTF u smoking?

Yeah, wtf are you talking about with Kas'im being in ROTS?

Ah, sorry. I'm getting everything mixed up today. I meant PoD. Sorry. I don't know what is wrong with me today.

Skywalker, what do you mean Kas'Im not being that strong in PoD...... HE NEVER EVEN FOUGHT ANYONE BUT BANE so how the hell can you say he wasn't that strong? It's like saying Darth Plagueis wasn't good at saberfighting.

Well, first of all he wasn't even a full sith lord yet!

?

Originally posted by skywalker833
Well, first of all he wasn't even a full sith lord yet!
This is a poor point, Anakin was never a jedi master but that doesn't mean he was not powerful.

Originally posted by skywalker833
Well, first of all he wasn't even a full sith lord yet!
Dude, are you thinking of Sirak? Cause Kas'im was a Sith Lord, but Sirak wasn't.

Let's hear the other points, mister!

Originally posted by darthsith19
Dude, are you thinking of Sirak? Cause Kas'im was a Sith Lord, but Sirak wasn't.
Maybe, I really need to read that book again. lol

Sirak was the top student before Bane. Kas'Im was the Sith Lord swordmaster-teacher in the academy. You mixed them up?

LOL, Skywalker833 just shot himself in the foot so many time's.

Anyway, other than him, I'm sure that everyonelse agree's that Bane would woop Kenobi's ass. Right?

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Anyway, other than him, I'm sure that everyonelse agree's that Bane would woop Kenobi's ass. Right?
No... read the thread... look at the poll... most people said it would be close...

Most people are sheep.

I strongly disagree Exodus. Honestly i could put bane up against Luke, Sidious, Yoda, and Boba Fett (who we all know is invincible apparently)
and you would be all:

Bane WINS!! Orbalisk!! OMG!! yeah! faster than eye moves, dominates kas'im, YAY!!!

I'm not kidding, hearing the same argument over and over and over again (and false argument as far as the Kas'im fight is concerned) almost makes Bane threads more of a pain to read then they are worth to answer. I dunno about other people, but when i see you posting about bane, and i see the word orbalisk, or the word Kas'im, or the word "PWN!!!!" i just kinda skip the rest of it, because i know i've read it elsewhere on the forum. (and then you start copy pasting the part of the Kas'im fight that you find relevent, IGNORING the rest of it.... which if i were more ambitious, i would type in, and tiredly reply to EVERY time you posted it. ) have you nothing original to add to your defense of Bane? Ever? believe it or not, some of the same people read different threads, so using the exact same argument for every thread with Bane fails to convince us he is a force GOD.

k. i'm done.....

Originally posted by tauros
Sirak was the top student before Bane. Kas'Im was the Sith Lord swordmaster-teacher in the academy. You mixed them up?
Yeah, pretty much.

Don't mind truejedi. He's had this slightly creepy vendetta against Bane ever since he came back here and started posting again, and my guess is that he's just jealous of the fact that Bane can pull off wearing makeup whilst looking like a gangster at the same time. Either that or his penis size. Or maybe even his bald head. One of the three for sure.

I'm sure that he has nothing to fear from Bane in the Penis department, Those orbaliks have sharp teeth and cover every part of his body. I was actaully shocked when I read that. One becuase I thought he would be rolling on the floor weeping and one becuase he thought that protecting his feet were more important than his penis.

Originally posted by ??????????????
Don't mind truejedi. He's had this slightly creepy vendetta against Bane ever since he came back here and started posting again, and my guess is that he's just jealous of the fact that Bane can pull off wearing makeup whilst looking like a gangster at the same time. Either that or his penis size. Or maybe even his bald head. One of the three for sure.

eh, i'm not against bane, i like bane, as far as sith are concerned, i think he's probably near the top. sidious>bane, but as far as i'm concerned, that's about it on sith. I will admit i have a huge vendetta against orbalisk armor, lol, seems too much like superman, (or i.e.) invincible to me.
i just don't think the ancient EU characters are in the same category of skill as the movie characters. I just go by the fact that Yoda was considered the most powerful Jedi, and Sidious the most powerful sith. Since others (i.e. mace, or anakin, or even yes, kenobi, dooku) could challenge those two, i believe the power levels were higher across the board at the time the Prequel trilogy.
as far as bane criticism: i don't like that it makes Zannah seem almost as powerful as bane does. I don't like Bane's "tiny target defense" aided by his armor, and such. In fact, i'm really looking forward to another Bane book (which they almost have to write) because Bane lost his orbalisks, and that makes him a much more interesting character to me.

Exodus: Sorry about that last post, i think i did get on a soap box. You are perfectly entitled to your opinion on it, just like i am.

???????????????????? (how do i even address such a screen name)
where does someone who just joined get off telling me that "since i returned" ) unless you do admit being the nebaris you keep denying you are?
hmmmmm....

Forcewise, Bane will take this... But saberwise I really do not know.

I've never seen Kenobi fare against someone like Bane, though. Bane is physical beast, he's pure muscle. Although, I have no argument here. In POD, Bane could pretty much destroy any other Sith Lord... But then again, the ones in the book could hardly be considered 'Sith Lords' (by the exception of Kas'im).

Since I have not seen true evidence of just how skilled, saberwise, Bane was by POD, I cannot come up with a reasonable argument.

Bane beat Kas'Im.

I think we all know that.

Luke beat Vader.
also, Kenobi beat Grievous.

Originally posted by tauros
Bane beat Kas'Im.

Not saberwise.

Originally posted by Lt. Valerian
Not saberwise.

More specifically, not in lightsaber technique.

an english teacher would say "not as far as lightsabers are concerned..."

Originally posted by truejedi
an english teacher would say "not as far as lightsabers are concerned..."

And are you an english teacher? wink1

Yes, Bane did beat Kas'Im with lightsabers only. Isn't it pretty darn clear? When they were both familiar with each others styles, and both using their best style, Bane was just toying with Kas'Im. Kas needed all his skill to stay alive.

Originally posted by skywalker833
I think we all know that.

Well you don't even know who Kas'im is apparently.

lol, true.

Originally posted by tauros
Yes, Bane did beat Kas'Im with lightsabers only. Isn't it pretty darn clear? When they were both familiar with each others styles, and both using their best style

Bane was familiar with most of Ka'sim's techniques. Bane did have the edge once he started attacking, but Kas'im realized he would be risking his life if he didn't use his secret technique, which gave him a clear advantage over his opponent, and which Bane couldn't do absolutely anything against.



On the contrary. He unleashed his full potential to have enough skill to finish with the life of his former mentor,

"He drove Kas'im back with furious slashes, forcing his old mentor into a backpedaling retreat across the floor of the chamber.

Each time he tried to change tactics or switch forms, Bane anticipated, reacted, and seized advantage."

Bane was not toying with him, he was aiming for the kill. He was using everything he had.




As did Bane. And him using the Force to be able to survive this encounter is proof for this. Bane knew he had no other choice but to call on the power of the Force. That was the only way in which he could emerge victorious. If the fight would have continued, Bane would have eventually died on the hands of the Blademaster.

Awesome sig Lt.!

Thank you.

Originally posted by ??????????????
Well you don't even know who Kas'im is apparently.

and you don't even know you are an ***
no offense.... wait, I take that back...

He's restricted.

Originally posted by Lt. Valerian
Bane was familiar with most of Ka'sim's techniques. Bane did have the edge once he started attacking, but Kas'im realized he would be risking his life if he didn't use his secret technique, which gave him a clear advantage over his opponent, and which Bane couldn't do absolutely anything against.



On the contrary. He unleashed his full potential to have enough skill to finish with the life of his former mentor,

"He drove Kas'im back with furious slashes, forcing his old mentor into a backpedaling retreat across the floor of the chamber.

Each time he tried to change tactics or switch forms, Bane anticipated, reacted, and seized advantage."

Bane was not toying with him, he was aiming for the kill. He was using everything he had.




As did Bane. And him using the Force to be able to survive this encounter is proof for this. Bane knew he had no other choice but to call on the power of the Force. That was the only way in which he could emerge victorious. If the fight would have continued, Bane would have eventually died on the hands of the Blademaster.

Umm.. yes. You just said it yourself. Kas'Im needed his secret technique to beat Bane. So Bane was the better swordsman in equal ground. The advantage is kind of clear since Kas was the swordsmaster of the academy Bane studied in, and as that was the only place for him to learn in, he couldn't have known about using two lightsabers.

Originally posted by tauros
Umm.. yes. You just said it yourself. Kas'Im needed his secret technique to beat Bane. So Bane was the better swordsman in equal ground. The advantage is kind of clear since Kas was the swordsmaster of the academy Bane studied in, and as that was the only place for him to learn in, he couldn't have known about using two lightsabers.
no... he knew a technique that bane didn't how to counter, that clearly makes kasi'm the better swordsman. Yoda didn't get to practice against sidious first, i doubt luke knew how to counter vader's form on bespin, but that doesn't make luke better than vader on "equal footing" these are fights to the death. There is no such thing as equal footing. you use every advantage you can gain.

Originally posted by truejedi
no... he knew a technique that bane didn't how to counter, that clearly makes kasi'm the better swordsman.

There is no such thing as a black and white "better" swordsman. It all depends on who's being included in the comparison. In relation to each other, sure, Kas'im is the better swordsman, and the same's the case in respect to anyone else who's completely unfamiliar with the style of Jar'Kai. However, in relation to someone who's familiar with both of their forms, Bane would be the better swordsman, as can be seen in the first part of his fight with Kas'im where he dominated. Claiming that someone's simply better in such an art without providing context is the exact same style of illogic as A>B>C arguments.



Your comparison is as absurd as they come. Kas'im was a high end master of all seven forms for the dual sabers, where he was described as having literally millions of combinations at his command, and Bane was completely unfamiliar with every single one.

Sidious was a practitioner of Ataru, Yoda's own form, and he wielded the form in a completely orthodox manner. There would be nothing about him that Yoda wouldn't be familiar with, and prepared against, so the fact that he hadn't ever practised with him is a moot point.



It's quite possible, given how Yoda had been training him for a confrontation with Vader.



Again, another absurd comparison. We say that Bane was better than Kas'im on equal footing because we actually get to see them fight on equal footing, and Kas'im quite simply got outclassed.

Your analogy would only be valid if somebody had said that Bane was the better of the two on equal footing simply because of an absence of evidence that suggests otherwise.



The point is, in the case of Bane and Kas'im, if the advantage (or disadvantage) in question wouldn't apply in the discussed scenario, then you simply discount it, as it's irrelevant. For instance, in the Bane vs. Obi-Wan thread, you brought up the fact that Kas'im was able to dominate Bane whilst wielding two lightsabers. Absolutely true, but an advantage Obi-Wan wouldn't possess, making that segment of the fight meaningless to bring up, and the same is pretty much the case with anybody except Kas'im, as nobody has been shown to have reached his level of prowess with the Jar'Kai as of yet, and it's likely nobody ever will be.

Originally posted by ExclamationMark
There is no such thing as a black and white "better" swordsman. It all depends on who's being included in the comparison. In relation to each other, sure, Kas'im is the better swordsman, and the same's the case in respect to anyone else who's completely unfamiliar with the style of Jar'Kai. However, in relation to someone who's familiar with both of their forms, Bane would be the better swordsman, as can be seen in the first part of his fight with Kas'im where he dominated. Claiming that someone's simply better in such an art without providing context is the exact same style of illogic as A>B>C arguments.



Your comparison is as absurd as they come. Kas'im was a high end master of all seven forms for the dual sabers, where he was described as having literally millions of combinations at his command, and Bane was completely unfamiliar with every single one.

Sidious was a practitioner of Ataru, Yoda's own form, and he wielded the form in a completely orthodox manner. There would be nothing about him that Yoda wouldn't be familiar with, and prepared against, so the fact that he hadn't ever practised with him is a moot point.



It's quite possible, given how Yoda had been training him for a confrontation with Vader.



Again, another absurd comparison. We say that Bane was better than Kas'im on equal footing because we actually get to see them fight on equal footing, and Kas'im quite simply got outclassed.

Your analogy would only be valid if somebody had said that Bane was the better of the two on equal footing simply because of an absence of evidence that suggests otherwise.



The point is, in the case of Bane and Kas'im, if the advantage (or disadvantage) in question wouldn't apply in the discussed scenario, then you simply discount it, as it's irrelevant. For instance, in the Bane vs. Obi-Wan thread, you brought up the fact that Kas'im was able to dominate Bane whilst wielding two lightsabers. Absolutely true, but an advantage Obi-Wan wouldn't possess, making that segment of the fight meaningless to bring up, and the same is pretty much the case with anybody except Kas'im, as nobody has been shown to have reached his level of prowess with the Jar'Kai as of yet, and it's likely nobody ever will be.

Haha what a ******. Looks like Rex is on top of his game now.

Originally posted by truejedi
no... he knew a technique that bane didn't how to counter, that clearly makes kasi'm the better swordsman. Yoda didn't get to practice against sidious first, i doubt luke knew how to counter vader's form on bespin, but that doesn't make luke better than vader on "equal footing" these are fights to the death. There is no such thing as equal footing. you use every advantage you can gain.

Yes he knew a technique that Bane didn't know. Because Kas'Im was Bane's teacher, and he decided not to teach it to him. A technique does not make one a better swordman. If Bane was familiar with his technique, Kas'Im would have been beaten, which shows that Bane was the better of the two even though he got beaten in lightsaber combat that time. The rest of your post - what is your point? "There is no equal footing"? And..?

You missed his point completely. Kas'im was the better swordsman, there's nothing to it.

Let me give you an example: Maul fights Kenobi and Qui-Gon, and both, the pair, and Maul, know absolutely nothing about each other's forms and techniques. The difference here is, Maul has a double-bladed saber, which gives him a slight advantage on one-on-one combat. The Jedi had never fought against something like this before, but the fight was no-where near short. Why? Because even though Qui-Gon and Kenobi were unfamiliar with his technique, they were fine swordsmen, at least very close to Maul's level, and, therefore, were able to compete with him, even individually. On the other hand, Bane gets destroyed when Kas'im switched to his unknown technique.

Bane knows almost everything about his opponent's techniques, which is the only reason why he had the upper hand in the beginning of the duel. Place a Bane who doesn't know shit about Kas'im's forms and techniques against the Blademaster, and he dies painfully.

What the hell are you talking about. Maul used Juyo, which is pretty much the same as what Mace used and Qui-gon dueled with him plenty. He also used Ataru in which both are proficient. Oh, and do you really expect me to believe that they've never fought a double saber? Out of hundreds of thousands of jedi do you really think that no one uses one? Either way their are people how use double vibro blades and jedi need to train against all foes. Your post was lame.

Actually Exodus, I heard that Maul was one of the first to use a double bladed saber since Kun. I may be wrong though...

No, Valerian. Bane was the better swordsman.

"Place a Bane who doesn't know shit about Kas'im's forms and techniques against the Blademaster, and he dies painfully."

Place Kas'im who doesn't know shit about Bane's forms and techniques against Bane, and he (Kas'im) dies painfully.

Originally posted by tauros
No, Valerian. Bane was the better swordsman.

"Place a Bane who doesn't know shit about Kas'im's forms and techniques against the Blademaster, and he dies painfully."

Place Kas'im who doesn't know shit about Bane's forms and techniques against Bane, and he (Kas'im) dies painfully.

I'm gonna copy-paste this from the Bane-Kas'im thread, because i took my argument there, but you obviously didn't so: i responded to you earlier:

okay: tauros:
If you are saying that Bane had more POTENTIAL to be a better swordsman, than i agree completely. However, in the case of their fight on... wherever it was. been awhile since i played KOTOR, i don't remember the planet name... Kas'im was superior because he knew more.
it means bane could not beat kas'im, EVER in that fight, with a saber, if they fight it 800 times. That's because bane just didn't know enough.

You might say that TPM anakin was a better swordsmen than ROTS dooku, BECAUSE given the same opportunity to learn all of the count's forms, and practice as much as he wanted (say oh, an odd 12 to 14 years or so..) he could beat the count. It would hardly be even ground if the TPM Anakin had to fight ROTS dooku, BUT Dooku would be superior in that fight. Because he knows more. THAT is part of experience, and is COMPLETELY ADMISSABLE in any vs debate.

So: POD Bane was not the equal of Kas'im at the time of POD. He would have been, yes, had he known how to counter that form, but if he was truly that much better than Kas'im, he should have been able to continue to use his own form against Kas'im in a way that would force Kas'im to counter BANE, as opposed to the other way around. If Bane had managed to stay on the offensive, then Kas'im would have not been able to use his form to its fullest advantage. I don't understand what the debate is here. Kas'im could counter ANYTHING bane threw at him, and had an extra form that Bane couldnt' counter. That gives Kas'im an advantage. We don't see Bane studying that form for the rest of POD, so it means that POD bane can't beat Kas'im. Yes, the potential was there, but the skill wasn't. Why is that being met with so much resistance? it seems obvious. We wouldn't call Dooku's years of experience an unfair advantage over anakin from my example earlier, we would simply say Dooku was better at that time. Why would you treat the Bane, Kas'im fight any differently?

Bane could also block everything that Kas'im threw at him.

Originally posted by tauros
Bane could also block everything that Kas'im threw at him.

that is simply not true.

Oh? How come Bane is alive if Kas'im hit him?

edit

Wasn't Kas'im stated to be the suuperior duelist?

No.

Originally posted by tauros
Bane could also block everything that Kas'im threw at him.

Didn't you read the book? Or did you just missed the part were Kas'im destroyed Bane with his dual sabers?



Yeah, that's exactly why Bane was overwhelmed when Kas'im changed his lightsaber form and technique.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
What the hell are you talking about. Maul used Juyo, which is pretty much the same as what Mace used and Qui-gon dueled with him plenty.

Yes, my mistake on that one. But my point still stands: One of the reasons why Maul defeated Qui-Gon was because he wielded a more deadly, proficient weapon, and even though Qui-Gon knew his form, he couldn't figure out how to counter the double-bladed weapon's attacks, which is almost the case with Bane & Kas'im...



Yes, I do, because in case you didn't watch AOTC, not a single out of at least a hundred Jedi was wielding a bloody double-bladed saber nor dual ones. Or did you see someone? Oh. Of course you didn't.



Once again, you are wrong. A Vibrolade has absolutely nothing to do with a lightsaber. The weapons' techniques, handling, and prowess are completely different from one another.

And please, READ. I have already created a thread regarding the Bane vs. Kas'im topic.

Originally posted by Lt. Valerian
Didn't you read the book? Or did you just missed the part were Kas'im destroyed Bane with his dual sabers?

I fail to see how, considering the fact that Bane was still able to control the flow of the battle well enough to be able to lead the battle to the outside of the temple. It's pretty clear that he still had some sense of control over the battle, and as Taurus mentioned (and he was absolutely correct, btw), Kas'im still never managed to land a hit against Bane.



While what you're saying is likely correct, how can you claim it with absolute certainty? It wasn't unheard of for Jedi of the time to wield double bladed lightsabers; an entire class of Jedi wielded them: the Jedi Brutes, as shown in the RotS Video game (argue about the game's canonicity all you want, the comic Purge fully backs it up on the matter, as does Leland Chee).

And while you do get cases throughout the mythos where one combatant wields an unfamiliar style of combat over the other, there's no case that's quite the same as with Bane and Kas'im. Kas'im had mastered all seven forms of the lightsaber for his style of weapon, and spent even more time perfecting them. It was stated that he had millions of different moves and combinations at his command, and that every single one was completely unfamiliar to Bane.



Wow, hasty generalisation, much? As explained above, you're wrong.

Originally posted by Kadesh
I fail to see how, considering the fact that Bane was still able to control the flow of the battle well enough to be able to lead the battle to the outside of the temple. It's pretty clear that he still had some sense of control over the battle, and as Taurus mentioned (and he was absolutely correct, btw), Kas'im still never managed to land a hit against Bane.

Bane did not ever control the flow of battle when Kas'im switched to his dual sabers, and nor was Bane able to land a hit. I'll provide evidence in a few minutes.



I did not ever think 'Jedi Brutes' were canon... My god, how much has GL screwed SW up? But yes, I cannot argue against canon. Although, it's not plain generalization; you never see a single Jedi Knight wielding a double-bladed lightsaber in ANY movie, these characters only appear in very few comics, which means only very few did wield one. Then again, what would make you think Qui-Gon ever sparred against one of those few Jedi wielding a double-blade? There is absolutely nothing indicating such and the characters who we know wield a double-blade are not quite related to him. Therefore, it is highly unlikely, which is what I am trying to point out.



I know it is stated that Kas'im had millions of combat combinations at his command, but when was it stated that 'every single one was unfamiliar to Bane'?










Welcome to KMC, by the way.

I'm sorry, I have to go, but I'll be back to provide the evidence.

About the double-blade.. Kas'im says it doesn't provide an advantage, the other way around. You only need to follow the other end to know where to other one is, so it's not really that much different from normal lightsaber combat, whereas two lightsabers vs one is a completely different situation.

I would like to know where it has been confirmed that Sidious's chosen form is Ataru.