TPM Maul vs ROTS Kenobi

Man of Christ

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Resurrection#cite_note-1
Already addressed that Obiwan's fighting style was the best as Mace said he had the best chance to win and last I checked Obiwan's style was not said to be the best to vs Maul as it was said vs Grievous. Though Grievous was injured beforehand it is neither here nor there for this fight.

How many times now have I proven you wrong that Maul outdueled TPM Obiwan and was the better fighter? Yet you still go back to this one point.

It is a great feat for sure but you neglect to mention how well they knew each other inside and out. And just because he won the duel at Mustafar doesn't automatically mean that this duel would be easy for him. Which is my whole argument that Maul simply wont die without giving Kenobi a fairly tough battle.

1) grevious knows all forms including juyo so if obi wan is best against grevious, then that means he can beat grevious even when he is using juyo, and given the computer chip i am 100% certain that grevious can use juyo better than maul.so if obi could easily disarm grievous (pun intended) then he will have an even easier time with maul
but guess what?
maul has a dexterity disadvantage of dual wielding which will hurt him against obi's reflexes.

2)maul is an idiot and either way he is still dead as a doornail get over it

3)what he did to grevous he will do to maul, easily

Blax_Hydralisk

Maul's idiocy does not count against him in a debate, even if is a reason why he's not a good duelist.

A character's personality doesn't really come into play in most debates unless it's specified, I.E> "In teh zone Anakin".

truejedi

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Nope it was the narrator who said this about him and said a very similar comment in another book about him.

ah, my bad. Hard to believe they would put him ahead of Yoda though... Sometimes authors seem to want THEIR character to be the most uber ever, so they put in phrases like that that don't seem to fit with the rest of the Star Wars universe at all.

Elite Hunter

Originally posted by Man of Christ
1) grevious knows all forms including juyo so if obi wan is best against grevious, then that means he can beat grevious even when he is using juyo, and given the computer chip i am 100% certain that grevious can use juyo better than maul.

Than with that petty logic Grieviosu should be better than Dooku at Makashi,better than Mace at Vapaad and better than Yoda at ataro but do you think Grievous can be any of them in saber combat? No this logic has no merit to it. Hence one of the reasons that XYZ arguments usually are flawed.

In is career he made two mistake of being over confident (vs obiwan and vader) however if your read any other material about Maul you would know that he is normally the silent assassin type who doesn't toy around. And you are the one who needs to get over the fact that TPM Maul>TMP Obiwan among others.

Elite Hunter

Originally posted by truejedi
ah, my bad. Hard to believe they would put him ahead of Yoda though... Sometimes authors seem to want THEIR character to be the most uber ever, so they put in phrases like that that don't seem to fit with the rest of the Star Wars universe at all.
Much like is happening with other characters like Jacen and Boba fett. But like I said in another thread I seriously have doubts if Anoon could be ROTS Yoda in a strict saber duel.

skywalker833

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Much like is happening with other characters like Jacen and Boba fett.
I know! I hate how powerful they make Jacen , or Caedus, look. mad

Man of Christ

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Than with that petty logic Grieviosu should be better than Dooku at Makashi,better than Mace at Vapaad and better than Yoda at ataro but do you think Grievous can be any of them in saber combat? No this logic has no merit to it. Hence one of the reasons that XYZ arguments usually are flawed.

In is career he made two mistake of being over confident (vs obiwan and vader) however if your read any other material about Maul you would know that he is normally the silent assassin type who doesn't toy around. And you are the one who needs to get over the fact that TPM Maul>TMP Obiwan among others.

1) i also spoke of the computer chip which you didnt respond to. it gives grevous accuracy thats better than, sentient life and he has two additional arms which enhance his juyo abilities beyond Mauls but not beyond those jedi masters you mentions ALL OF WHOM ARE BETTER THAN MAUL AND ALL OF WHOM GREVOUS WAS WARNED TO AVOID.

2) maul is still dead like it or not

truejedi

Originally posted by skywalker833
I know! I hate how powerful they make Jacen , or Caedus, look. mad

really, they make him look really weak, and then keep talking about how powerful he is. mebbe that's why he's so annoying.

Elite Hunter

Originally posted by Man of Christ
1) i also spoke of the computer chip which you didnt respond to. it gives grevous accuracy thats better than, sentient life and he has two additional arms which enhance his juyo abilities beyond Mauls but not beyond those jedi masters you mentions
I know you spoke of a computer chip and my point is that a computer chip doesn't automatically mean Grievous is better a juyo than Maul which is why I mentioned other names.

No shit sherlock, I debating that he doesn't go down without giving Kenobi difficulty.

Man of Christ

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
I know you spoke of a computer chip and my point is that a computer chip doesn't automatically mean Grievous is better a juyo than Maul which is why I mentioned other names.

No shit sherlock, I debating that he doesn't go down without giving Kenobi difficulty.
the only way your premise could operate is if you beleive that maul is some sorta threat to grevous, now is that what you think?

truejedi

Originally posted by Man of Christ
the only way your premise could operate is if you beleive that maul is some sorta threat to grevous, now is that what you think?

i think maul could threaten grievous. Simple reasoning: Maul has the force, Grievous doesn't. The ROTS novel makes clear that Grievous was only beaten by Obi-Wan because Obi-Wan was completely in tune with the force. it also makes it sound like Grievous never had a chance. (Obi-Wan bending Grievous's duranium arm is what i offer as proof here)
Maul would have a chance against Obi-Wan, but i pick Kenobi, BECAUSE he purposely switched to soresu after fighting maul the first time. He realized that ataru had weaknesses that soresu doesn't have, so it must mean he had improved his chances of defeated maul.

Blax_Hydralisk

What?

I was under the impression that Obi-Wan didn't start learning Soresu until after the movie.

truejedi

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
What?

I was under the impression that Obi-Wan didn't start learning Soresu until after the movie.

yeah, that's exactly what i was saying. Obi-Wan learned Soresu because of his duel with Maul.

Sidi-Boy

Kenobi takes this. Easily.

Maul fights similarly to Anakin; he's an idiot when it comes to tctics, but he has immensely good dueling skills; it's like comparing Anakin to Bane and Maul to Sidious, as they use the same style (if you believe Sidious uses Juyo, which seems to be the most likely), but do it much more skillfully and with more intelligence. As such, Maul is the ideal opponent for Kenobi, who can probably deflect the number of blows Maul can deal upon him by giving ground, using Ataru acrobatics and almost impenetrable Soresu defense.

Simple speed isn't enough to penetrate Soresu; we all saw how Grevious, who was probably among Anakin, Sidious, and Yoda as the fastest attackers, not be able to penetrate Obi-Wan's defense, who simply took an advantage in his openings, slicing off his hands. Maul, I believe, is ROTS Grevious' equal with a lightsaber, and is stronger in the force- but less intelligent. Thus, I'd say Obi-Wan takes this hands down by handling a few blows, slicing his saberstaff in half and subsequently relieving Maul of his head.

Maul is good, but if we're going to use NG's lightsaber-ranking skills, I'd give him probably a 7... roughly equal to AOTC Obi-Wan...

Elite Hunter

Originally posted by Man of Christ
the only way your premise could operate is if you beleive that maul is some sorta threat to grevous, now is that what you think?

See truejedi's post and it seems everyone Obiwan wins(which I already said he would be it will not be easy) just because he beat GG in somewhat easy fashion in a lightsaber duel doesn' mean Maul lose a saber duel as fast the GG did before he retreated. I already gave my reasons that Obiwan the best choice to face Grievous and I have stated why Maul is a good enough fighter to give Obiwan difficulty.

Man of Christ

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
See truejedi's post and it seems everyone Obiwan wins(which I already said he would be it will not be easy) just because he beat GG in somewhat easy fashion in a lightsaber duel doesn' mean Maul lose a saber duel as fast the GG did before he retreated. I already gave my reasons that Obiwan the best choice to face Grievous and I have stated why Maul is a good enough fighter to give Obiwan difficulty.

obi wan punished grevous easily,
grevous>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wait im not done>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.a turkey sandwich>>maul.

so obi wan wont have any trouble with maul. after all, he studied qui gon's mistakes and already dueled maul so he knows what to do.
maul is a match for padawan kenobi
maul would give knight kenobi some trouble
maul gives master kenobi no trouble

Blax_Hydralisk

God fecking damn you for stretching out the page.

darthsith19

Is anybody actually saying that Maul would win? Kenobi takes this, but not easily.

Blax_Hydralisk

Nah.

Elite Hunter

Originally posted by Man of Christ
obi wan punished grevous easily,
grevous>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wait im not done>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.a turkey sandwich>>maul.

so obi wan wont have any trouble with maul. after all, he studied qui gon's mistakes and already dueled maul so he knows what to do.
maul is a match for padawan kenobi
maul would give knight kenobi some trouble
maul gives master kenobi no trouble

XZY argument much? Anakin beat Dooku who is more powerful than Obiwan yet lost to him. Grievous and Maul have different styles and as I already said and others would acknowledge that Obiwan;s form was the best to face GG. Maul made a the top duelist who's skills were described as
A Twi'lek, with slender head-tails and a heavily muscled upper body, his name was Anoon Bondara, a duelist of unparalleled skill. Qui-Gon engaged him in matches at every opportunity. For a match with Bondara, no matter how brief, was more instructive than twenty contests against lesser opponents. and as The Twi'lek Jedi Master lived in the Force. Always still and complacent as a pool of unknown depth, he was nevertheless one of the best fighters in the order. His skill with a lightsaber was second to none.

And to quote Borbarad:

On the other Handside we have Darth Maul. A "perfect Sith weapon" (DSSB), who's overall combat skills (force mastery and lightsaber skills) were not only enough to deal with two rather talented Jedi at once. No. He was also skilled enough to kill a guy who's lightsaber skill was "second to none" in the Jedi Order and another Jedi Master that has been on par with TPM Mace Windu in terms of overall duelling ability. That aside from almost killing Darth Sidious, who only barely managed to survive the fury of his own apprentice � in a situation where Maul lacked food and sleep for an month and was already badly injured.

The Ultimate Visual Guide says that Maul is 'one of the deadliest Sith apprentices in history'

He got right back with no signs of any damage from a force witche's force lightning and proceeded to kill her after he took most of the Black Sun's leaders.

The resurrected Maul severely damaged Darth Vader and very nearly killed him as well as winning a very large portion of the duel.

He out dueled Obiwan and Quigon with an injured knee.

and here at 2 mentions of Darth Maul in the DSSB

The Dark Side Sourcebook:
"Darth Maul was taken offworld and indoctrinated into the ways of the dark side, trained by Darth Sidious in not only Sith lore, but in the Jedi arts. Any display of fear on his part was punished with vicious retribution. Any hint of mercy in his character was rewarded with severe cruelty. One those rare occasions when he relaxed his guard, his master nearly killed him to remind him that a Sith can never afford a moment of rest. After years of this kind of treatment, Darth Maul was absolutely ruthless-a perfect Sith weapon. By the
time he reached adolescence, Darth Maul was already a hardened, remorseless killer."

"Maul's final test as a Sith apprentice occurred on an isolated Outer Rim World. Abandoned there by Darth Sidious, he was told that he had to survive on his own until Sidious returned a month later, all
the while being hunted by hordes of deadly assassin droids. Maul fought as best as he could, but exhaustion and hunger finally took their toll, and one of the tireless droids finally wounded him badly enough that he felt he could not go on. At that point, Darth Sidious returned and challenged his apprentice to a lightsaber duel, telling Maul that he had secretly been training a second apprentice in case Maul failed his final test-which, by failing to kill Sidious in the duel, he just had. Anger and hatred welled up in Maul, and he drew renewed strength from the dark side. Hurling himself at Darth Sidious, he nearly bested his master with a flurry of deadly lightsaber blows. Sidious barely deflected them all."

So do spit out more BS that Maul goes down easily since that is all you seem capable of other than repeating defeated points.

Man of Christ

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
XZY argument much? Anakin beat Dooku who is more powerful than Obiwan yet lost to him. Grievous and Maul have different styles and as I already said and others would acknowledge that Obiwan;s form was the best to face GG. Maul made a the top duelist who's skills were described as
A Twi'lek, with slender head-tails and a heavily muscled upper body, his name was Anoon Bondara, a duelist of unparalleled skill. Qui-Gon engaged him in matches at every opportunity. For a match with Bondara, no matter how brief, was more instructive than twenty contests against lesser opponents. and as The Twi'lek Jedi Master lived in the Force. Always still and complacent as a pool of unknown depth, he was nevertheless one of the best fighters in the order. His skill with a lightsaber was second to none.

And to quote Borbarad:

On the other Handside we have Darth Maul. A "perfect Sith weapon" (DSSB), who's overall combat skills (force mastery and lightsaber skills) were not only enough to deal with two rather talented Jedi at once. No. He was also skilled enough to kill a guy who's lightsaber skill was "second to none" in the Jedi Order and another Jedi Master that has been on par with TPM Mace Windu in terms of overall duelling ability. That aside from almost killing Darth Sidious, who only barely managed to survive the fury of his own apprentice � in a situation where Maul lacked food and sleep for an month and was already badly injured.

The Ultimate Visual Guide says that Maul is 'one of the deadliest Sith apprentices in history'

He got right back with no signs of any damage from a force witche's force lightning and proceeded to kill her after he took most of the Black Sun's leaders.

The resurrected Maul severely damaged Darth Vader and very nearly killed him as well as winning a very large portion of the duel.

He out dueled Obiwan and Quigon with an injured knee.

So do spit out more BS that Maul goes down easily since that is all you seem capable of other than repeating defeated points.

this isnt xyz because grevous never dueled maul, its just a logical answer.

1) who gives a crap about maul defeating boondara, that has nothing to do with MASTER kenobi who wasnt around back then.
2) the visual guide says he is the deadliest sith APPRENTICE, does that mean he can give MASTER kenobi a hard time? no
anakin was the deadliest JEDI apprentice and he cant beat rots kenobi.
3) so what maul could take on 2 jedi at once, kenobi beat grevous easily and grevous beat like 4 or 5 jedi at once during Cw
4) kenobi's reflexes are too good for him to have trouble with maul.he made short work of mr 20 strokes per second grevous. does maul move nearly as fast? no
so he wont be a challenge at all for kenobi.
pitting rots kenobi against maul is like pitting rots mace against cw asajj, you just know its gonna be over soon

Elite Hunter

Originally posted by Man of Christ
this isnt xyz because grevous never dueled maul, its just a logical answer.

Youa re saying that just because Kenobi beat Grievous with "ease" than he can do the same with Maul which is essentially the basic principles of an XYZ argument.

You truly are ignorant. Boondara had better lightsaber skills at the time of his death than anyone else in the jedi order. And Maul made him realize that Anonn couldn't win. To the intelligent that speaks highly of Maul's lightsaber prowess.

lol, Dooku was an APPRENTICE and held the same rank of Maul and he knocked out Kenobi, Darth Vader was an APPRENTICE yet hew could at the very least give kenobi a hard battle. So your pitiful attempt to discount the quote just because of Kenobi's higher rank fail s miserably. (what a shock there)

The five jedi he fought in the CW were already in battle and were thus not at 100%. And once again Obiwan was specifically chosen to face Grievous due to his style's advantage that it gives him over the overly aggressive Grievous. And Quigon still was "one of the most able duelist in the order" even as of TPM and Obiwan as not your average jedi and did I mentioned that Maul was injured at the time of the duel?

Darth Maul shadow hunter:

The idea that Maul will get wtfpwnd is clearly flawed. He goes down in a duel about the full length of TPM duel only Maul and Kenobi's position/leverage can very well be revesered from the tpm duel.

Man of Christ

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Youa re saying that just because Kenobi beat Grievous with "ease" than he can do the same with Maul which is essentially the basic principles of an XYZ argument.

You truly are ignorant. Boondara had better lightsaber skills at the time of his death than anyone else in the jedi order. And Maul made him realize that Anonn couldn't win. To the intelligent that speaks highly of Maul's lightsaber prowess.

lol, Dooku was an APPRENTICE and held the same rank of Maul and he knocked out Kenobi, Darth Vader was an APPRENTICE yet hew could at the very least give kenobi a hard battle. So your pitiful attempt to discount the quote just because of Kenobi's higher rank fail s miserably. (what a shock there)

The five jedi he fought in the CW were already in battle and were thus not at 100%. And once again Obiwan was specifically chosen to face Grievous due to his style's advantage that it gives him over the overly aggressive Grievous. And Quigon still was "one of the most able duelist in the order" even as of TPM and Obiwan as not your average jedi and did I mentioned that Maul was injured at the time of the duel?

Darth Maul shadow hunter:

The idea that Maul will get wtfpwnd is clearly flawed. He goes down in a duel about the full length of TPM duel only Maul and Kenobi's position/leverage can very well be revesered from the tpm duel.

now now no need to bash, i never called you ignorant i expect the same respect from you.
so lets continue to be civilized shall we.

1) you speak of boondara who was top AT HIS TIME and MASTER kenobi wasnt around back then so you cant say he was better than MASTER kenobi

2) you excerpt doesnt prove that he MOVED HIS LIGHTSABER at 20 strokes per second it just says he moved at unnatural speed.

3) no need for all this hoopla its simple math and logic. master kenobi had no trouble with the swift grevous and so maul who is much slower would be even easier. grevous had 4 blades maul had only 2 with a limited dexterity because the blades are connected making him even weaker against kenobi. he gets pwnd. next thread please, and not one for people who over rate maul

Elite Hunter

Originally posted by Man of Christ
1) you speak of boondara who was top AT HIS TIME and MASTER kenobi wasnt around back then so you cant say he was better than MASTER kenobi
Ah but one Mace Windu and a younger Yoda(note that some people think in your anoon thread that his skills are still there with ROTS Yoda) was around at this not to mention all the top jedi we see in the clone wars and then some who died before hand and beating the best of tens of thousands is certainly impressive.

Except Kenobi didn't really have to move his lightsaber to much since the angles of GG initial attack of the two spinning blades were the same. And I don't have to prove that Maul's reflexes were better than Obiwan's or necessarily equal to Obiwan's. As the novel says Maul make his hands move like a blur and unnatural speed, as the rest of the passage shows among others, Maul is clearly no slouch, further supporting my claim that he doesn't lose this battle easily.

See above for Maul's skill and the only "swift" maneuver GG was the spinning blades technique. He didn't move no where near the speed we see him deliver in CW Cartoons or LOE. Funny how 90% of the threads that i have debated a point for Maul has vs you for underrating Maul, which I have won all them.

EDIT: And to further add to my Anoon point,w e know as Cin Drallig states that Yoda very rarely gives any lightsaber demonsration I see no reason why to think his skills shortly prior to TPM were anything less than what we see in the AOTC vs dooku.

Man of Christ

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Ah but one Mace Windu and a younger Yoda(note that some people think in your anoon thread that his skills are still there with ROTS Yoda) was around at this not to mention all the top jedi we see in the clone wars and then some who died before hand beating the best of tens of thousands is certainly impressive.

Except Kenobi didn't really have to move his lightsaber to much since the angles of GG initial attack of the two spinning blades were the same. And I don't have to prove that Maul's reflexes were better than Obiwan's or necessarily equal to Obiwan's. As the novel says Maul make his hands move like a blir and unnatural speed, as the rest of the passage shows among others, Maul is clearly no slouch, further supporting my claim that he doesn't lose this battle easily.

See above for Maul's skill and the only "swift" maneuver GG was the spinning blades technique. He didn't move no where near the speed we see him deliver in CW Cartoons or LOE. Funny how 90% of the threads that i have debated a point for Maul has vs you for underrating Maul, which I have won all them.

1) in my anoon vs rots yoda thread thier opinions are not neccesarily cannon, yoda was younger and mace hadnt mastered vaapad yet, and even the anoon durring the time of PADAWAN kenobi had nothing to do with MASTER kenobi. besides that whole "second to none" rating goes out the window if yoda was the most powerful force darkness ever knew.

2) so, kenobi's reflexes were so good that a 4 BLADED duelest got outmanuevederd by him in 3 seconds. what can a 2 BLADED duelist whose blades are attached with a dexterity handicap do to match that? nothing

3) the title of this thread specifies that maul is in his tpm state so the broken ankles that he has to duel rots kenobi with will add to his recieving of pwnage

4) i will be honest, i hate maul's guts and think he is the worst idea for a sith ever and i was glad when kenobi KILLED him. but i dont underrate him its just that rots kenobi is so gooooooooood at this point that maul cant lift a finger to him.

5) dont let your ego consume you young padawan

Elite Hunter

Originally posted by Man of Christ
1) in my anoon vs rots yoda thread thier opinions are not neccesarily cannon, yoda was younger and mace hadnt mastered vaapad yet, and even the anoon durring the time of PADAWAN kenobi had nothing to do with MASTER kenobi. ew.

No but it give incite to the general consensus of the forum.

WRONG, the quote said he was seconds to none lightsaber skill,no mention of his force skill (though it was fairly impressive but that is neither here nor there) Yoda was the most powerful overall. And as I said in a thread months ago the degree to which Anoon was better than Yoda was never specified.

Once again the fighting styles of Maul and GG are completely different. And the second blade allows for different angles of attack then 4 single blades. and btw the "nothing" part is your unsupported opinion as I already proved that Maul has very impressive reflexes.

Yet this was the same maul who killed one of the most able duelists of the jedi order( and i believe he was considered a near equal to Mace at this time) and his highly regarded padawan who even when using the darkside was outdueled. And by clinging to the thread title sounds alot like desperation.

your unsupported opinion as I have been dealing with the same points from you in atleast 3 different threads and countered them all.

Its not ego at all. Generally in a kmc debate the one's who are actively debating don't usually concede when they are wrong. However in the the other two threads in which you and I debated on Maul most people were persuaded to my side of thought if they did not already think so and my arguments were all backed up by the necessary canon sources. Unless the people provide unsupported argument and say this character wtf pwnzors another character or show total ignorance to logical points. And even in this thread you have skipped a few of my points that speak of Maul's skill and prove that he is not going down easily.

And to quote myself

truejedi

how did maul break his ankles?

Elite Hunter

Originally posted by truejedi
how did maul break his ankles?

I think it was his knee but here is the piece in the episode one jouranl:darth maul

Impossible as it may seem, I have made an error. Out of impatience or a residue of exhaustion, who can say.

The Sand People advance on me angrily. In their breath masks and goggles they are protected from the sand that now stings my eyes and clogs my mouth.

The howling intensifies. The Raiders shake their gaderffii and begin to surround me. There are just too many of them. I can take out four or five in the flicker of an eyelash, but that will just infuriate the rest.

Frustration boils inside me. These interruptions deflect me from my mission.

I never run away from a battle. But this one will tax me, and my strength is needed for the Jedi. If my Master hears I have been wounded, he will be furious.

All of these calculations race through my mind, faster than the Tusken Raiders are moving. One fierce Raider is the first to come at me, racing forward with his stick held high. It is easy for me to fake a dodge to the left, then make a half turn and kick him from behind as he staggers, surprised that there is now empty air where I had been standing.

He falls hard, spraying sand. This gratifies me, but it does not please his companions.

The Tusken Raiders have maneuvered me closer to the sheer face of the canyon wall. They think they have trapped me. They plan to take their time slicing me to ribbons, enjoying what they think is my fear.

At that moment, my wrist comlink sends off an alert signal. One of the probe droids has found something. The noise splits the eerie silence in the canyon. Even the Tusken Raiders pause.

The Jedi have been located. I must get back to the Infiltrator.

I turn my back to them, but only for an instant. I run straight for the canyon wall. I don't have much distance to cover, so I have to run fast. I feel the tearing wound in my left thigh, but I push it aside. Pain is another annoyance. It will not slow me down.

I run up the sheer wall, calling up the dark side to escape my enemies. My contempt and my anger at the Tusken Raiders help me. I am able to scale the wall despite the pain. With a final burst of strength that sends red agony through my leg, I flip over backward, fly over the surprised upturned faces of the Raiders, and land behind them.

They are so startled they don't react. That gives me a head start. I take off through the canyon, heading back to my ship. My wound troubles me, but now my annoyance is toward myself for feeling it. I force myself to run with my usual strength and speed.

They are no match for me. They chase me, shaking their gaderffii sticks, but they cannot catch me. I am a streak of darkness, faster than light.

I make it back to the ship. I see out the windshield that the Tusken Raiders stand a hundred meters away. They talk among themselves, waving their arms. But I know they'll give up, and they do. They trudge off, looking for easier prey.

The droid appears a few minutes later. I check its readout. One Jedi was spotted in Mos Espa. The coordinates indicate that he is heading out of the spaceport. He is most likely returning to his ship.

Jedi, I hope you are complacent right now. I hope you think you are safe for the moment. I know your arrogance tells you that you are a match for whoever is looking for you. Your surprise will add to my pleasure when I destroy you.

truejedi

hmmm, doesn't say exactly what the wound is, does it? (and thanks for the post!)

Sidi-Boy

Personally, I'm still rather certain Obi-Wan would take this, probably 8/10 times or something along the lines of that- this is not saying Kenobi's Soresu thoroughly out-classes Maul's Juyo, but rather that Obi-Wan will PSYCHOLOGICALLY reduce Maul to an angry beast.

Grievous, along with Mustafar Vader, are arguably Kenobi's most impressive defeats during his history of being a Jedi; they're both similar to Maul, especially Vader. Remember, there was NOTHING to indicate the fact that Maul is an intelligent fighter; similar to Anakin. He had skills that were superior to TPM Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon, but ultimately lost due to be overconfidence.

However, I think that Kenobi will take out Maul Grievous-style; Maul's barrage of Juyo attacks (which specialize in speed; no-one is claiming Maul is SLOW) will, despite using the Double-Blade to form an apparent advantage, be utterly incapable of penetrating Obi-Wan's defense, causing Maul to become angry and frustrated, and his attacks will become sloppy and less percise; eventually, Obi-Wan will likely cut off his hands or disarm him.

It's true Maul has one near-defeat and one defeat that are extremely impressive; one is almost killing Sidious, who managed to fight equally against Yoda later on in a lightsaber duel, and the other is this Anoon Bondara person. I seriously think that 'second to none' lightsaber skills are an exaggerration, which the authors of some novels have a tendency to do, similarly to how Mace's B-team was composed of 'some of the finest swordsmen in the order'.

Against Sidious, Maul didn't almost kill-him; rather, Sidious quickly disarmed Maul, who DID successfully catch him off-guard with an array of vicious attacks; note that Sidious was only using a training lightsaber, indicating he was NOT trying to kill Maul during the fight, but rather test Maul's abilities when he completely surrendered to the dark side. Being starved, mentally weak, and angry would have EMPOWERED Maul rather than weakening him, using the pain to enhance the power of his dark side abilities, becoming a dervish of rage. But once again, Sidious beat him.

Elite Hunter

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
It's true Maul has one near-defeat and one defeat that are extremely impressive; one is almost killing Sidious, who managed to fight equally against Yoda later on in a lightsaber duel, and the other is this Anoon Bondara person. I seriously think that 'second to none' lightsaber skills are an exaggerration, which the authors of some novels have a tendency to do, similarly to how Mace's B-team was composed of 'some of the finest swordsmen in the order'.

The only thing is that in the same book (Darth Maul Shadow Hunter) Yoda was called the best lightsaber duelist on the council and Anoon was never on the council. And I believe that the wording of that quote is similar to Anoon's but it added the jedi council to while Anoon's didn't. Though Anoon also had the quote from Cloack of Deception to back it up that his saber skills were considreable. Mind you that this was shortly before TPM though. But even then Yoda very rarely even gave lightsaber demonstrations and really didn't participate on missions so I don't see his skills improving too much if at all until AOTC which is around the level that I would personally put Anoon's lightsaber skills around the AOTC Dooku/Yoda.

In Rainbows

Kenobi. Without breaking a sweat.
That's my opinion.
If Obi-Wan can deal with Grievous and Vader, I think he should be able to defeat Maul easily.

Elite Hunter

Originally posted by truejedi
hmmm, doesn't say exactly what the wound is, does it? (and thanks for the post!)

I know, I don't actually own the journals and I have not found them online to read so I just copied and paste that from wookieepedia. Though i seem to remember a statement(and commenting on it) that said Mau was not going to tell Sidious about his injury because he would have been mad.

Originally posted by In Rainbows
Kenobi. Without breaking a sweat.
That's my opinion.
If Obi-Wan can deal with Grievous and Vader, I think he should be able to defeat Maul easily.
A little late in the game to post such statement, as me and Man of Christ have been debating this and if you read the debate you would know that I covered parts of this.

This is one of things that piss me off,me and MOC are in the middle of the debate and as much as i disagree with him on this issue, he is still trying to post an argument that is based on more than a single sentence. And it is not just in this thread but all threads when there is a big debate going someone posts there opinion without backing it up while everyone else iadressing several different points,etc.

In Rainbows

Right. Well, sorry then. I was just saying who would win according to me. If it'll make you happy, I'll read your little debate already.

No wait, I have to take a shit. Sounds like a lot more fun to me.

DARTH POWER

I think people are putting Darth Maul's chances really short here.

lets see he mastered juyo(a form 7 lightsaber style).. and to do this he would have to be a high level master of other lightsaber forms as well.

hes completely mastered the use of a deadly double sided lightsaber. and is also versatile and can switch to a single sided one when thats more useful/convinient. hes mixed different martial arts into his fighting style as well. he was simply trained from a young age by Sidious to be like the perfect jedi killer. he was pretty much a bad ****.

he extended his fighting skills to a wide range and the chances are not even Sidious was well versed in all the different fighting techniques which Maul incorporated into his own.

and then theres Kenobi whose "The Master" of Soresu. and is also pretty good with Ataru.

and hasnt Lucas put Maul, Dooku and OT Vader all in the same league somewhere. If anyone knows then please point that out. So in terms of Lightsaber combat id put him in Nick Gillards ranking as a level 8. But one of the higher level 8's like Dooku. Yeah id put his lightsaber skills in league with Dookus, but would say Dookus better due to his superior mastery of the Force. So that would certainly make Maul a good match for ROTS Obi-Wan.

I make this a long exhausting fight for both fighters, which could go either way. Just in fighting abilties, not talking about anyone outsamrting the other. If that comes into play then il give the win to Obi-Wan. But just for the record, when did Darth Maul become so stupid??

Darth Exodus

The only reason why Kenobi was able to beat Grevious so easily nwas becuase grevious didn't have the same advantage as Kenobi. He was stated to be completely in tune with the force. So although Grevious can attack alot in a short period of time, Kenobi knows where each strike will be and can thus dodge or block it and then when to counter attack relying on the fact that Grevious doesn't have the same advantage. This won't work for Maul as he does and thus does the A>B so A>C argument fail.

Elite Hunter

Originally posted by In Rainbows
Right. Well, sorry then. I was just saying who would win according to me. If it'll make you happy, I'll read your little debate already.

No wait, I have to take a shit. Sounds like a lot more fun to me.

I apologize if it sounded like I was angry at you personally which I assure you I am not. It is only my complaint about the regulars that are on this forum, who would post an opinion similar to that in the middle of the debate. So once again I'm sorry if it seemed like my post was directed only at you or specifically signaling you out.

Elite Hunter

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
The only reason why Kenobi was able to beat Grevious so easily nwas becuase grevious didn't have the same advantage as Kenobi. He was stated to be completely in tune with the force. So although Grevious can attack alot in a short period of time, Kenobi knows where each strike will be and can thus dodge or block it and then when to counter attack relying on the fact that Grevious doesn't have the same advantage. This won't work for Maul as he does and thus does the A>B so A>C argument fail.
Is it a blue moon tonight? Because this is one of the rare occasions when we have the same opinion.

Sidi-Boy

A>B>C arguments always fail. Period.

But this is no A>B>C argument. Personally, I think Anoon Bondara was probably a powerful Jedi about as strong as Qui-Gon; good enough to put up a fight against Maul, but ultimately lose. Anyway, Grievous would likely be of similar strength to Maul in terms of lightsaber skills; however, Maul has Teras Kasi and the force, making him an ultimately superior foe to ROTS Sidious (but probably not to EU Grievous).

I really can't see how it isn't obivius that Obi-Wan will beat Maul... maybe not uberOMGWTFpwnOWNzorZ, but defeat him comfortably. Let's analyze the fight between Obi and Maul in TPM... Obi actually seemed to have the upper hand, but after breaking the saberlock, Maul pushed him away. Maul was probably the superior duelist, but Obi-Wan just standing up to him is impressive; now, Obi-Wan 13 years later, battle-hardened and completely mastering a new style that would be a perfect counter to Maul's uncontrolled, furious Juyo.

Also, Obi-Wan is likely superior to Maul in the force, too; while Maul did push him away, I don't remember him being capable of hurling someone HEAVIER than Kenobi much more far away than Maul did him, or match force strength with the chosen one, someone's whose potential is actually greater than SIDIOUS' or YODA'S, the two strongest force users in the galaxy at the time.

Oh, by the way... do you mean to imply that Maul > Yoda, by saying Anoon Bondara is roughly AOTC Yoda-level?

??????????????

Hardly. They only fail if a special circumstance or not-always-applicable advantage factors in, otherwise they're perfectly valid.

Elite Hunter

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
A>B>C arguments always fail. Period.

But this is no A>B>C argument. Personally, I think Anoon Bondara was probably a powerful Jedi about as strong as Qui-Gon; good enough to put up a fight against Maul, but ultimately lose. Anyway, Grievous would likely be of similar strength to Maul in terms of lightsaber skills; however, Maul has Teras Kasi and the force, making him an ultimately superior foe to ROTS Sidious (but probably not to EU Grievous).

The principle MOC is using is similar to the XZy principle. "because Obiwan beat Grievous with "ease" than he beats maul easier" that just doesn't cut it.

Obiwan will win but Maul wont go down without putting up a tough fight. I'd say Obiwan wins but it wont be comfortable (or layed back) Obiwan will need to go all out. (not that he would necessarily be in a position as close to death as he was in TPM)

Maul was superior to Obiwan who was using the darkside in Obiwan's own words

Obiwan said this on page 29 of the jedi vs sith guide:

When the last door lifted, I gave into my anger as I charged the dark warrior. I absolutely wanted to destroy him. He used my anger against me,actually fed off my fury,gaining strength as I exhausted my own. I lost my lightsaber and he had me......

I would like to further add that Obiwan's statement (about 5 years after tpm i believe) does not contradict the movie because Obiwan is merely describing what he felt inside of him.

Maul use the force in a physical way though I would like to add that he got right back from being blasted and while still being blasted from force lightning cut down the force witch. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Image:Mighella_VS_Maul.jpg

No I am not. I put Anoon around Yoda in lightsaber skill only though he wasn't a slouch in the force and for the record I'm not saying that Anoon or Mau > AOTC Yoda merely around his lightsaber skill whether it is a little lower. But Anoon's technique/swordsmanship could rival Yoda. It is a little complicated but this is a discussion for this thread.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f86/t482668.html

Man of Christ

lol dude to say that maul would force rots to "go all out" would mean that tpm maul is on rots anakin's level, and thats total horsepuckey

Sidi-Boy

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
The principle MOC is using is similar to the XZy principle. "because Obiwan beat Grievous with "ease" than he beats maul easier" that just doesn't cut it.

Grievous and Maul fight similarly- otherwise, I would not possibly compare Obi-Wan's defeat of Grievous to his theoretical defeat of Maul. For example- Obi-Wan could beat Anakin (or at least match up to him), who beat Dooku, who beat Obi-Wan. These sort of arguments fail; but only because Dooku fights differently than Anakin and the likes. So yes, Grievous can be used as a comparison to Maul here.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Obiwan will win but Maul wont go down without putting up a tough fight. I'd say Obiwan wins but it wont be comfortable (or layed back) Obiwan will need to go all out. (not that he would necessarily be in a position as close to death as he was in TPM)

'Winning comfortably' doesn't mean being laid back or something like that; it just means defeating the opponent without any legitimate chance of being defeated. At least, that's my interpretation of it. Obi-Wan never showed the tendency to toy with his opponents, so I doubt he'll do it now.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Maul was superior to Obiwan who was using the darkside in Obiwan's own words

Obiwan said this on page 29 of the jedi vs sith guide:

When the last door lifted, I gave into my anger as I charged the dark warrior. I absolutely wanted to destroy him. He used my anger against me,actually fed off my fury,gaining strength as I exhausted my own. I lost my lightsaber and he had me......

I would like to further add that Obiwan's statement (about 5 years after tpm i believe) does not contradict the movie because Obiwan is merely describing what he felt inside of him.

I never claimed Maul wasn't superior to Kenobi in saber combat by TPM; but they were damned close. It's true Kenobi was using the dark side, and I think that Maul would've beaten him in a fair fight, but still... let's use a similar comparison, shall we? Right then, Dooku absolutely schooled Anakin in AOTC, but lost his head to the ROTS incarnation of him. That was through a time difference of three years, during which Anakin further customized his fighting style to be more of a dueling form. Now, Obi-Wan changed his style, mastered it, and gained experience over the course of 13 YEARS, and he didn't exactly get his ass handed to him in the Dooku fashion.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Maul use the force in a physical way though I would like to add that he got right back from being blasted and while still being blasted from force lightning cut down the force witch. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Image:Mighella_VS_Maul.jpg

That's endurance, not force power. That's like saying Yoda was stronger than Sidious in the force because he recovered from his force lightning jolt rather quickly. There's a difference.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
No I am not. I put Anoon around Yoda in lightsaber skill only though he wasn't a slouch in the force and for the record I'm not saying that Anoon or Mau > AOTC Yoda merely around his lightsaber skill whether it is a little lower. But Anoon's technique/swordsmanship could rival Yoda. It is a little complicated but this is a discussion for this thread.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f86/t482668.html

Understood. I'm pretty sure that is was exaggerration, but I'm not saying his skills weren't formidable; by clarifying that Bondara's lightsaber techniques were second to none, it creates a paradox, as it says that TPM Obi-Wan is almost as strong as Yoda (due to him being almost as strong as Maul) in terms of lightsaber skills. Which makes no sense whatsoever.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

I never claimed Maul wasn't superior to Kenobi in saber combat by TPM; but they were damned close.

really? they were close? if that was so Obi-Wan would have been able to keep up with the fight, instead of getting left behind..

also how long did it take Maul to win the duel against Obi-Wan? like half a minute.. maybe a few seconds longer...

Obi-Wan had a huge rest from the battle, Maul had been fighting for a while, first against both of them, then against Qui-Gon twice, and then had to fight Obi-Wan.. Nd Obi-Wan saw his mentor die, so gave it his very best shot, gaining an advantage at one point, but despite all this he still lost the duel relatively quickly.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

and he didn't exactly get his ass handed to him in the Dooku fashion.

He kept hitting Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan really hard, and they only survived because the other one was there to keep fighting. Obi-Wan got hit by Maul So Hard that his lightsaber fell out of his hand... Twice!

And I think Obi-Wan lasted a fair bit longer against Dooku in AOTC than he did against Maul. unless your talking about the Force move Dooku did to Obi-Wan in ROTS.. cause yeah Maul culdnt do that to Obi-Wan.

Man of Christ

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
really? they were close? if that was so Obi-Wan would have been able to keep up with the fight, instead of getting left behind..

also how long did it take Maul to win the duel against Obi-Wan? like half a minute.. maybe a few seconds longer...

Obi-Wan had a huge rest from the battle, Maul had been fighting for a while, first against both of them, then against Qui-Gon twice, and then had to fight Obi-Wan.. Nd Obi-Wan saw his mentor die, so gave it his very best shot, gaining an advantage at one point, but despite all this he still lost the duel relatively quickly.

He kept hitting Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan really hard, and they only survived because the other one was there to keep fighting. Obi-Wan got hit by Maul So Hard that his lightsaber fell out of his hand... Twice!

And I think Obi-Wan lasted a fair bit longer against Dooku in AOTC than he did against Maul. unless your talking about the Force move Dooku did to Obi-Wan in ROTS.. cause yeah Maul culdnt do that to Obi-Wan.

i have a question thats up for discussion if anybody wants to chime in but i direct it to you first Darth Power.

this is the question,

after tapping into the darkside, did TPM kenobi do anything that he wasnt already capable of?
did the dark side give him an actual boost in ability or just give him the agression to use the ability he already had?

Faunus

Originally posted by Man of Christ
i have a question thats up for discussion if anybody wants to chime in but i direct it to you first Darth Power.

this is the question,

after tapping into the darkside, did TPM kenobi do anything that he wasnt already capable of?
did the dark side give him an actual boost in ability or just give him the agression to use the ability he already had? Giving into anger always gives the combatant a temporary boost - it's what's the Dark side is all about. And aside from lil' Obi-Wan, Anakin and Luke demonstrate it against Dooku and Vader, respectively.

Sidi-Boy

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
really? they were close? if that was so Obi-Wan would have been able to keep up with the fight, instead of getting left behind.
He got kicked in the face by Maul, whose one of the few people in the saga who are actual GOOD hand-to-hand combatants; he was kicked and knocked down. Maul was being overwhelmed by the two Jedi, so he knocked one away in order to make it easier on himself. The result: Qui-Gon pwned.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
also how long did it take Maul to win the duel against Obi-Wan? like half a minute.. maybe a few seconds longer...

Obi-Wan had a huge rest from the battle, Maul had been fighting for a while, first against both of them, then against Qui-Gon twice, and then had to fight Obi-Wan.. Nd Obi-Wan saw his mentor die, so gave it his very best shot, gaining an advantage at one point, but despite all this he still lost the duel relatively quickly.

That's true; however, if you would analyze the actual fight, you would see that Obi-Wan was on the offensive, and attacked Maul, cutting his saber in half, etc, etc, etc... in reality, he pushed Maul away, who subsequently force pushed him. FORCE PUSHED HIM. We're talking about saber skills here, not force abilities; Obi-Wan was overwhelming Maul, so he decided to take the easy path and push him away. In addition, Maul did not seem in any way tired, unlike Qui-Gon, who seemed to be rather tired... Maul's a stamina beast. His endurance is one of his better traits.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He kept hitting Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan really hard, and they only survived because the other one was there to keep fighting. Obi-Wan got hit by Maul So Hard that his lightsaber fell out of his hand... Twice!

And I think Obi-Wan lasted a fair bit longer against Dooku in AOTC than he did against Maul. unless your talking about the Force move Dooku did to Obi-Wan in ROTS.. cause yeah Maul culdnt do that to Obi-Wan.

MAUL WAS STRONGER THAN BOTH QUI-GON AND OBI-WAN. I did not deny that; Qui-Gon was exauhsted during the fight, while Obi-Wan was a Padawan who did not even fully master his form of choice. Obi-Wan lasted more against Dooku because he was 10 years more experienced than how he was against Maul; and once again, Maul force-pushed Obi-Wan rather than beat him with a saber.

Elite Hunter

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Man of Christ
i have a question thats up for discussion if anybody wants to chime in but i direct it to you first Darth Power.

this is the question,

after tapping into the darkside, did TPM kenobi do anything that he wasnt already capable of?
did the dark side give him an actual boost in ability or just give him the agression to use the ability he already had?

not sure why your directing the question to me considering i never mentioned Obi-Wan giving into his anger.

But ill answer neway. yes your rite.. obi-wan didnt do anything he wasnt capable of. after seeing his mentor die, he went all out and gave maul everything he had.. (and you could see Maul was expecting that and enjoying every second of it) but it wasnt enough. Maul still won the duel

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

That's true; however, if you would analyze the actual fight, you would see that Obi-Wan was on the offensive, and attacked Maul, cutting his saber in half, etc, etc, etc... in reality, he pushed Maul away, who subsequently force pushed him. FORCE PUSHED HIM. We're talking about saber skills here, not force abilities; Obi-Wan was overwhelming Maul, so he decided to take the easy path and push him away. In addition, Maul did not seem in any way tired, unlike Qui-Gon, who seemed to be rather tired... Maul's a stamina beast. His endurance is one of his better traits.

i remember the fight as going backwards and forwards. not just Obi-Wan forcing Maul back. nd by the way if u watch it carefully just before Maul Force pushes Obi-Wan he forces his saber back towards Obi-Wan first leaving an opening for Maul to Force Push him.

neway force push is not a particularly adavanced force move. its a standard attack. like a kick or a punch midfight. in fact in an interview with Wizard Ray Park said the force thing was his idea, a way for him not to keep repeating the same moves. also Maul got that opening because you could see Obi-Wan tiring.

nd yeah Mauls got good stamina. but when Obi-Wans been out of the fight for a while, and Maul was fighting the whole time, it obviously gives Obi-Wan the advantage. and yet Obi-Wan still tired first. you can that towards the end of the fight, that Obi-Wans given it everything nd is tiring now.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

MAUL WAS STRONGER THAN BOTH QUI-GON AND OBI-WAN. I did not deny that; Qui-Gon was exauhsted during the fight, while Obi-Wan was a Padawan who did not even fully master his form of choice. Obi-Wan lasted more against Dooku because he was 10 years more experienced than how he was against Maul; and once again, Maul force-pushed Obi-Wan rather than beat him with a saber.

I know the Dooku fight was 10 years later. i said that becuase you said Maul didnt pawn ObiWan the way Dooku did. but I think he actually did. Again Force push is a standard attack during a Saber fight. like a kick.. you can only kick your opponent during a saber fight if he lets his guard down, and your quick enough to take advantage.

Lord Knightfa11

sorry kids, at this point kenobi owns him.

Elite Hunter

Wow Knightfall way to read the thread, and not just the actual debate but my other post last page.

Sidi-Boy

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
i remember the fight as going backwards and forwards. not just Obi-Wan forcing Maul back. nd by the way if u watch it carefully just before Maul Force pushes Obi-Wan he forces his saber back towards Obi-Wan first leaving an opening for Maul to Force Push him.

neway force push is not a particularly adavanced force move. its a standard attack. like a kick or a punch midfight. in fact in an interview with Wizard Ray Park said the force thing was his idea, a way for him not to keep repeating the same moves. also Maul got that opening because you could see Obi-Wan tiring.

nd yeah Mauls got good stamina. but when Obi-Wans been out of the fight for a while, and Maul was fighting the whole time, it obviously gives Obi-Wan the advantage. and yet Obi-Wan still tired first. you can that towards the end of the fight, that Obi-Wans given it everything nd is tiring now.

That's all true. As I've stated; Maul was STRONGER than Obi-Wan. Why do people keep acting as if I've said Obi-Wan was the stronger one? lol. Obi-Wan seemed to have the slight edge in their fight, though; as he cut Maul's lightsaber in half and seemed to be pushing him back, before Maul knocked away his saber and force-pushed him. Please. I'm not the one to say "OMG LOL HE USED FORCE PUSHED he was overpowered lolz Obi-Wan ownz he wtfpwned Maul, Maul's a cheater LAWL". Maul legitimately overpowered Kenobi; it's simply the fact that if Maul could have slain Kenobi then with his lightsaber, wouldn't it be simpler? Wouldn't it have been simpler for Dooku to later on saber him if he was weaker than him in sabers (talking about ROTS)? This is just one of the numerous examples in which the Sith take advantage of the easy way. That seems to separate them from the "Short way and the right way" Jedis. I'll use several examples:

Dooku vs. Yoda: Dooku uses the force to distract Yoda while he gets away. Really? Was it because Dooku could pwn Yoda but he chose not to? Err... no. He was being overpowered, so he decided to use the easy and safer way to pull a get away.

Dooku vs. Anakin/Obi-Wan: The novelization clarified that Dooku was being pwned in the fight, so he decided to use the force- in which his mastery is far superior to Obi-Wan's due to the vast amount of experience he possesses- in order to take him out quickly rather than saber him, which would be risky.

Sidious vs. Mace/Yoda: Similarly, during the fight against Mace, Mace seemed to be overpowered- note the expressions he was making during the duel, extreme strain and showing obivious difficulty in parrying Sidious' strikes, so he decided to use the tactical advantage and a well-placed kick to disarm the overpowering Sith Lord. Against Yoda, Sidious was dead equal; so, instead of waiting to end a battle which would've gone either way, he decided to switch tactics and use the force in order to make it easier on him...

It's the difference between Sith and Jedi. Sith take easy and more practical paths during combat. Now, why did I bother with this rant? There wasn't a single time when an opponent who was overpowering the other chose to use the force (or tactical advantages) rather than simply saber him to death; with the exception of Sidious vs. Yoda and possibly Sidious vs. Mace, the user of the 'dirty tricks' stuff was being overpowered; in the latter two, it was simply because it would be easier to overcome the other via force powers. Unless of course Sid threw the fight against Mace... but that's irrelevant here...

Anyway. with all this evidence, I think it's safe to say Maul wasn't overpowering Obi-Wan. As for Obi's quote... it means Maul eluded Obi-Wan and causes him to be more open and easier to attack. That's what happened in the film, too... nothing in it contradicts my arguments.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I know the Dooku fight was 10 years later. i said that becuase you said Maul didnt pawn ObiWan the way Dooku did. but I think he actually did. Again Force push is a standard attack during a Saber fight. like a kick.. you can only kick your opponent during a saber fight if he lets his guard down, and your quick enough to take advantage.

During Dooku vs. Obi-Wan, it was highly possibly that Dooku was simply toying with Obi-Wan; note his "Master Kenobi, you disappoint me!" stuff and obiviously amused face. You don't see any of that when he's up against them in ROTS or when he's up against Yoda later on; it was, to me at least, obivious that he was simply more than a much for Obi-Wan but chose to toy with Obi-Wan. Maybe some sort of emotional attachment to his apprentice's apprentice? The one who killed his predecessor? Maybe.

truejedi

is the duel on Tatooine between ROTS Kenobi and the cybernetic Maul considered canon at all?

Elite Hunter

Nope

truejedi

ic, i just read the wikipedia entry for it, sounded pretty cool, esp. the part where all Obi-Wan cared about was "does Palpatine know" before owning Maul, but there should be a story where Obi-Wan actually has something to do.
There should be some books written about what Obi-Wan and Yoda do all those years, and it shouldn't be, just sit around and meditate. Mebbe help the rebel alliance, mebbe train some other Jedi's. Maybe meet some of the other Jedi, i don't know, there should be something though.

Elite Hunter

Well Obwian did wtfpwn Hett and Obiwan is featured in of the last of the jedi series though he isn't the main character. I also think I remember hearing that Boba Fett had an encounter with Yoda.

Blax_Hydralisk

One of the mob bosses from the Thrawn Duology had a ran in with Yoda too I believe. Cardas, was it?

Faunus

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Dooku vs. Anakin/Obi-Wan: The novelization clarified that Dooku was being pwned in the fight,The movie disagrees. The novel depicted a fight that was completely different in every manner save for the conclusion, and greatly favored the duo, while the movie had them getting tossed around like idiots until the end. No, Dooku wasn't having very much trouble at all.

Lord Knightfa11

here is my logic.

For a total of 3 seconds, maul stood in a stupor as kenobi flipped over him, grabbed his dead master's lightsaber, turned around, and cut him in half. IDIOT

Then kenobi grew up and became the greatest master of soresu in history. Mace called him the greatest of the jedi. After this, a sad, obligated obi wan soundly spanked an angry, darkside embued "IN TEH ZONE!!11111" anakin skywalker, the abilities of whom im not going to elaborate upon. He also took out an extremely skilled Lightsaber whirlwind, capable to fend against dooku, in about 8 seconds of combat.

Seriously, i can see you giving maul props for causing a formidible jedi to commit suicide to try and kill him, but this character conflicts with the skill and reflexes shown in the movies by maul. In such a conflict, movies are #1 priority, correct?

Blax_Hydralisk

Well, no one's arguing that Maul would win, right now it's more just about Maul's skill, thats in question.

And Hunters point is that it'd be a double standard to say Maul's an idiot for that mistake he made in TPM, considering many people made dumb mistakes throughout the movies.

Lord Knightfa11

well his point is correct.

Turning to the darkside to save the one you love and killing her in the process=dumb mistake.

however this is not only a mistake, its also a lack of relfexes and skill. i mean, maul had his saber open. all he would have had to do is move it a bit and he would have lived. unfortunately, nobody sees it this way. They see it as poor innocent maul getting surprised that a padawan could jump up and hit him!!!

Blax_Hydralisk

Agreed.

People also need to understand that getting surprised is, in fact, another reason why his dueling ability is not as good as it can be. Letting your guard down, and then getting killed because of it, reflects poorly on your judgment and perception.

As far as just debates go, where ones personality does not come into play, he's a vicious beast with extreme skill. In reality, he's an arrogant fool who can be manipulated into a false sense of security, and destroyed. Another thing that fight showed is that Maul doesn't adapt well. Once Obi-Wan got pissed off and started fighting with his full potential Maul was surprised, but he never adapted. If he was so much better then Obi-Wan he should have adapted to his fighting style in seconds even if he was surprised initially, and won the lightsaber duel. He did not. They exchanged blows, and then separated. Obi-Wan was going toe-to-toe with him for around seven seconds (long time in a duel). By this point in the duel:

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f122/blaxican_templar/Untitled.jpg

Maul should have realized that Obi-Wan was fighting much harder and much better then he was before, and that he would have to up his own game in order to contend. That's what a vastly superior fighter would have done. Maul did not. Instead, this happened:

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f122/blaxican_templar/maulvsobi2.jpg

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f122/blaxican_templar/MaulvObi3.jpg

He was put on his ass, and then forced to retreat.

From there they fight and Obi-Wan is holding his own quite fine, then Maul gets the force push in. At that point it's arguable whither or not Obi-Wan would have won had there not been a pit there. I'm under the impression he would have.

You're left with two conclusions, really.

A) Obi-Wan even as a apprentice really was just that good.

or

B) Maul has trouble adapting to new situations. He failed to adapt to Obi-Wan's increase in skill and he failed to adapt to Obi-Wan leaping over him and chopping him in half.

You could argue that both times he just got cocky and it killed him, but that just goes to show that he's even more of a dumbass, because if this persn has already put you on your ass and almost killed you due to your arrogance before, why drop your guard again? Because this time he's in a pit? He has "no chance"? It really isn't all that different then when you had slain his master and you thought he was done for. Obviously the kid has skill, obviously he's resourceful. Why let your guard down again?

Because your a fool. And really, this is why it's true that most of the lightsiders > darksiders in Star Wars in skill, because the majority of the darksiders are cocky bastards. If they weren't cocky, they'd be vastly more skillled fighters. Instead they're overconfident clowns.

Again, this is just my own opinion on the matter. There is tons of ridiculous canon and quotes that I'm sure will be brought up to negate everything I just said. But, whatever.

Lord Knightfa11

well the pics are cannon, and they reflect on exactly what you say. Maul didn't adapt, and kept letting his guard down, like 3 times. he refused or was unable to up his game. So, when he decided to be stupid, and put down his lightsaber again, and then leave it down when kenobi started jumping, is just proof that maul has horns for brains. WHy didn't he just shoot his fingers or force them so that he had to let go of the little thing that kenobi was holding onto? becauase he is an idiot. he pranced around and then didn't adapt when obi wan jumped. Maul had been a skilled beast, but a beast nonetheless-- count dooku
I can see sideous looking at maul and thinking "omg, i wish this guy knew some three syllable words. I am the master manipulator, and i gotta put up with this?" then maul burps, and mutters in single syllables about how the Jedi will pay while scratching his crack.....

Elite Hunter

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
And Hunters point is that it'd be a double standard to say Maul's an idiot for that mistake he made in TPM, considering many people made dumb mistakes throughout the movies.

I don't think I ever said anything about Maul being smart or not, but if you want to talk about it then Maul made 2 serious mistakes and both cost him his life. It is worth noting that in both mistake were where he was over confident and died cause of it. Though in every other material Maul was never over confident and pretty much was the silent assassin in every battle. All that being sad I don't seem Maul getting overconfident here because he will never be in a serious position to even taunt or boast his "superiority" to ROTS Obiwan and will never have him on the brink of death.

Sidi-Boy

Originally posted by Faunus
The movie disagrees. The novel depicted a fight that was completely different in every manner save for the conclusion, and greatly favored the duo, while the movie had them getting tossed around like idiots until the end. No, Dooku wasn't having very much trouble at all.

Yeah? The only thing I personally remember is Dooku getting thrown backwards, placing him on the retreat for the entire of the duo fight; now then... fighting styles come into question...

One might argue; "Obi-Wan was going backwards in his fight against Anakin, but he won." If that's an indication of losing, than how could Obi-Wan have won!

No. Dooku's a user of Form II: Makashi, which largely depends upon a mixture of offense and defense; it's a very versatile style, very effective in saber-on-saber combat... but, seeing as Dooku was forced into defending almost entirely against the duo, it would be an indication- supported by the novel, that he was overmatched by the two of them.

Dooku managed to land a force attack on Kenobi in order to better defend himself; it worked. Great for him, lol... but the matter is he used it to avoid being overpowered.

Previousi posts were correct; Maul vs. Obi-Wan was pretty even, and Maul did nothing to adjust his style, effectively establishing him as a fight-idiot. Obi-Wan's style is, shall we say, anti-idiots... see, Kenobi's greatest victories (arguably) were against Maul and Anakin. They were both idiots. Kenobi exploited a mistake they made in order to strike them down. Of course, people could say Grievous isn't an idiot (he really isn't), but he was beaten via Obi-Wan using the force, superior swordsmanship, and Grievous being previously injured.

That was a very intelligent comment regarding the Sith's overconfident usually leading to their falls; the Sith are, ultimately (with the exception of RotJ Vader) defeated via their overconfidence, not due to their lack of skill... they would pwn the Jedi if they were cool fighters like Obi-Wan stick out tongue

. But hey, everyone's gotta have a weakness...

Blax_Hydralisk

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
I don't think I ever said anything about Maul being smart or not, but if you want to talk about it then Maul made 2 serious mistakes and both cost him his life. It is worth noting that in both mistake were where he was over confident and died cause of it. Though in every other material Maul was never over confident and pretty much was the silent assassin in every battle. All that being sad I don't seem Maul getting overconfident here because he will never be in a serious position to even taunt or boast his "superiority" to ROTS Obiwan and will never have him on the brink of death.

Bah. Fair enough. >.>

DARTH POWER

again your all missing that Maul had been fighting for ages.. whilst Obi-Wan had been out of the fight for ages.. and Obi-Wan saw his master die, and so went completely full out on Maul.. and Maul took it, and survived it.. and then toards the end of the duel you can CLEARLY see that Obi-Wan has given it everything, but is now tiring.. there was no sign of Maul tiring, and he had complete control when he Force pushed Obi-Wan.. he even did it with a smile if I remember correctly.

and this talk of Maul not adapting is nonesense. he did adapt, thats why he won the duel. and the whole duel only lasted like half a minute.. a very intense half a minute yes.. but still a relatively short time.

If the pit wasnt there Maul had still won, because Obi-Wan took a hard hit and his lightsaber fell out of his hand.

and look, about Obi-Wans jump... the only reason Maul just stood there staring at him was because as far as Maul knew Obi-Wan didnt have a weapon. so Maul was just thinking "wtf is he doing???"

Lets not forget Maul had the complete Vertical High Ground.. so if he was expecting any kind of serious attack, theres absolutely NO WAY Obi-Wan could have taken him. he had a much better strategic position over Obi-Wan than ObiWan had over Anakin in ROTS.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Maul legitimately overpowered Kenobi;

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

Anyway. with all this evidence, I think it's safe to say Maul wasn't overpowering Obi-Wan.

So just to clarify?? do you think Maul overpowered Kenobi or not??

Blax_Hydralisk

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
again your all missing that Maul had been fighting for ages.. whilst Obi-Wan had been out of the fight for ages..

... so? He fell at least 50+ feet, jumped back up the 50+ feet, sprinted to catch up, then sat there literally wigging out for four minutes maybe then Qui-Gon was killed and he wigged out even more. He never had time to slow down, even if his body wasn't moving his mind was moving at a mile a minute.

What he did, was unleash his potential.

Apparently not, considering Obi-Wan went home to become one of the greatest Jedi ever and Maul's festering at the bottom of an energy shaft, having only his severed lower torso for company.

Prove it. Didn't seem clear to me. Maul never looks tired or beaten. Even when he was chopped in half he still had his game face on. Looking pissed off and indifferent is what he's trained to do. And Obi-Wan didn't look tired to me either. He looked focused.

He didn't smile until he kicked his lightsaber down the shaft, I'm pretty sure. And prove he was "in control". He looked pretty frantic to me.

He didn't "win: anything. He spent the first half of the fight getting his ass kicked, I.E., getting his lightsaber chopped in half and then put on his ass, then he got lucky with the force push, then he got chopped in half, like a douche�. A duel �ends� when your opponent stops fighting back. Hence, it ended when Maul fell down the energy shaft cleaved in two.

Considering most of the lightsaber fights in the PT only last a couple minutes� tops, it wasn�t that short.

So? Jedi fall down and lose there lightsabers all the time. It happened to Maul moments before, it happened to Anakin in Rots as well.

Why would you think that? One of the biggest rules in a fight is to never let your opponent get behind you. Especially when you�re standing two freakin� inches from an energy shaft�. One good push would have sent him falling to his doom. Obi-Wan wouldn�t even have needed his lightsaber to kill him at that point.

Obviously there was a way for Obi_Wan to have taken him. Because he did. Maul failed to take into account Obi-Wan�s 1337 skills, and he paid the price for it. Sloppy.

If I was fighting someone and they put me on my ass and embarrassed me once before, I wouldn�t take him lightly. Obi_Wan did in 6 seconds what Qui-Gon attempted to do but failed in four minutes of fighting. Once I had Obi-Wan where I wanted him I Would have ended it immediately. I wouldn�t try to monologue like an idiot.

Sidi-Boy

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So just to clarify?? do you think Maul overpowered Kenobi or not??

'Overpowered' and 'overpowering' are completely different things. 'Overpowered' means that someone did successfully overpower the other in a single instant, while 'overpowering' is more along the likes of having the upper hand and overpowering the opponent over time.

The fact that I stated that Maul both legitimately overpowered Obi-Wan and that he wasn't overpowering Obi-Wan aren't contradictory. See, I'll give you an example; during Dooku vs. Yoda, Yoda was overpowering Dooku, but since he failed to overpower him, he didn't win. So yeah; Maul beat Obi-Wan in the 'Saber match', but they were pretty much even for the duration of the fight.

Oh, and by the way... Maul's Juyo, albeit energetic, is no where near as tiring as Obi-Wan's and Qui-Gon's Ataru styles. Besides, Obi-Wan was the one getting kicked around, falling backwards and leaping up hundreds of feet in the air... I don't think stamina should be a factor in this situation; Maul was clearly not tired one bit, although Obi-Wan- due in part to his sudden and excessive use of the dark side and due to his energetic style- was somewhat tired near the end. Maul, during the fight, did not show ANY sign of being tired.

The taunting thing... Obi-Wan won, through being faster than his overconfident open. In the movie, Obi-Wan landed in front of Maul and sliced him, actually giving Maul sufficient time to light up his saber and defend. But he didn't. Why? Maybe he was shocked, surprised...

Anyway. Your whole arguments seem to be deciding the Maul was stronger than Obi-Wan. But really, I don't think anyone's denying it at this point. We're simply trying to prove that Obi-Wan is close to Maul enough that in a straight match, Maul would win, but won't WTFpwn Obi-Wan.

Elite Hunter

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
What he did, was unleash his potential.

No, he was using the darkside and had he not used the darkside he would have never broke Maul's saber,etc. There is a difference from using the darkside and unleashing your full potential or even part of it. Obiwan was using his anger against Maul not his "hidden potential" thta would eventually make him an uber duelist.

Elite Hunter

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Anyway. Your whole arguments seem to be deciding the Maul was stronger than Obi-Wan. But really, I don't think anyone's denying it at this point. We're simply trying to prove that Obi-Wan is close to Maul enough that in a straight match, Maul would win, but won't WTFpwn Obi-Wan.

Funny how Obiwan was only a challenge for Maul when he was using the darkside which is something under normal circumstance a jedi never uses. That's like saying that ROTS Luke wouldn't get pwned if Vader was trying all out from the start and had he not used the darkside to beat him in the saber duel. Maul's accomplishments speak for themselves (please don't ask me to post them all again) there is not enough evidence to even say that Obiwan prior to using the darkside could compete with someone who defeated Qui-gon, Bondara and even surprised the hell out of one Darth Sidious and ntm he was called "one of the deadliest sith apprentices in history" in which the title dates back to Simus training Naga Sadow. TPM Obiwan gets loses pretty badly.

Lord Knightfa11

but maul was using the darkside and rage and crap like that too. And kenobi backs him up and cuts his saber up! Maybe the eu maul and the movie maul are an inconscistency?

since this is TPM maul, and not comic book maul, i am taking the side of the maul who got spanked by a padawan.

Maybe it is debateable that he got overpowered by obi wan, but do you think that 20 years later, after becoming the master of the greatest lightsaber form (according to windu), and taking out anakin, that this tips the scales totally in Kenobi's favor. THink about it for a second. If Kenobi didn't force maul back, then they were pretty evenly matched. 20 years of experience and training later, Kenobi would CLEARLY take this.

Those who take maul's part are apparently only defending and explaining away how he got owned by a padawan, not explaining or clarifying exactly how he would own the same padawan 20 years later.

Elite Hunter

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
but maul was using the darkside and rage and crap like that too.

Um, yea he is a sith after all that is what sith use the darkside which in turn means that use emotions. hence Palpatine saying "Give into your anger" and Dooku saying something along the lines your have hate,you have fear, etc. Please tell me you know the basics of the darkside and the sith.

And I believe that it was said that Obiwan used a technique he learned from Qui-gon to calm himself down while hanging.

Elaborate, there is no inconsistency Maul overcame the temporary DS obiwan and then became overconfident and it lead to his death, the same thing would happen the only other time he got coky vs vader in one eu comic.

You really have no clue, unless stated otherwise(such as stating only the movie versions) than TPM Maul means the incarnation of Maul is up to tpm meaning that his feats from the books,which are more impressive than comics, and comics are valid points .

How many times is this going to be brought up read the last couples pages, I must have posted the quote from Obiwan about Maul gaining strength and him losing his at least four times now.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
No shit sherlock, I debating that he doesn't go down without giving Kenobi difficulty.

.
See the above and actually read the enitire thread before jumping into I already gave my reasons for why I beleive he doesn't get pwned as MOC originalyl said

Lord Knightfa11

sure, kid, I believe you. he just got cocky, and when maul gets cocky he kinda freezes and stands absolutely still for about 3 seconds while a padawan jumps over him and slices him in half. Either is so cocky he thinks obi wan will jump too high and hit his head on the roof, and then fall down behind him, or hes stupid, and this would just be exploited over and over and over.

The thing with the inconscistency im talking about is that he killed anoon bondara, and then got kicked down a shaft by a padawan!!

Elite Hunter

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
sure, kid, I believe you. he just got cocky, and when maul get's cocky he kinda freezes and stands absolutely still for about 3 seconds while a padawan jumps over him and slices him in half.

WTf are you going about now? He got cocky and was surprised and died,same thing happened vs Vader when he was winning. He was surprised and it cost him. I'm not making excuse for him. But if you read more than a single comic(and even there maul isn't cocky) about him than you would that he got cocky twice in his entire career and he died on both occasions. Being cocky/overconfidence isn't trait that lies only with Maul.

Elite Hunter

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
The thing with the inconscistency im talking about is that he killed anoon bondara, and then got kicked down a shaft by a padawan!!
Its not inconsistent, he wasn't overconfident vs Anoon and thus one, he was overconfident with an unarmed padawan hanging above shaft and he got cut like an onion.

Lord Knightfa11

he didn't get cocky vs vader. he was totally unprepared for vader to slice through his own circuits when he was about to let fall the death stroke.

what i dont understand is why did he freeze? why didnt he like hold up his lightsaber when obi wan flipped over him and just cleave him in two? If hes so awesome, why?

I never said it was only with maul, i just said that it looks like, when he gets cocky, he gets sluggish and stupid.

I did read star wars visionaries.

Lord Knightfa11

ok thats very fine and well to do, but it doesnt do anything for my question. WHY DID HE FREEZE for 4 seconds?

Elite Hunter

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
he didn't get cocky vs vader. he was totally unprepared for vader to slice through his own circuits when he was about to let fall the death stroke.

Um if I recall correctly vader was on his kneeds or barely standing his suit was already damaged and Maul says what couid you possibly hate enough to destroy me? instead of killing Vader in that instant he gives Vader a small enough period for Vader to think and Vader replies"myself and stabs through himself to get Maul as he was about to deliver the final blow. Plus I believe Maul was talking smack before hand which is something he didn't do in Shadow Hunter, the short story or any other source, hell even doesn't talk in TPM duel.

To answer your second second he didn't know what Obiwan was doing. I don't recall if Maul's mindset at that moment was ever described but like I said Obiwan closed his eyes and was calming himself down and Maul could have been feeling something in the force that he couldn't see other than obiwan calming himself, he was also reaching out for Qui-Gon's lightsaber so that came into. We can only speculate why Maul stood still my only guess is what I just said above,combined with shock and surprise.

Lord Knightfa11

Yes, but it appears to be only speculation. My problem isn't why did he die to a padawan, but why did he freeze if hes so great like you and the eu say. Maybe the fight was just made wrong.

Blax_Hydralisk

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Obiwan was using his anger against Maul not his "hidden potential" thta would eventually make him an uber duelist.

...

Can you prove that? >.>

Elite Hunter

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
...

Can you prove that? >.>

That he was using his anger. Well let's see he watches his master die and was powerless to do this and screams no.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter

Obiwan said this on page 29 of the jedi vs sith guide:

When the last door lifted, I gave into my anger as I charged the dark warrior. I absolutely wanted to destroy him. He used my anger against me,actually fed off my fury,gaining strength as I exhausted my own. I lost my lightsaber and he had me......

darthsith19

I think Blaxican was kidding...?

Elite Hunter

Yea so?

Lord Knightfa11

wtf didn't you post that quote before?

Lord Knightfa11

i never would have entered this debate lmao.

Blax_Hydralisk

It's okay Darthsith. My humor can be hard to detect.

Elite Hunter

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
wtf didn't you post that quote before?

Yup but it serves the same purpose.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
sure, kid, I believe you. he just got cocky, and when maul gets cocky he kinda freezes and stands absolutely still for about 3 seconds while a padawan jumps over him and slices him in half. Either is so cocky he thinks obi wan will jump too high and hit his head on the roof, and then fall down behind him, or hes stupid, and this would just be exploited over and over and over.

The thing with the inconscistency im talking about is that he killed anoon bondara, and then got kicked down a shaft by a padawan!!

Obi-Wan was just lucky that Qui-Gons lightsaber was there... Qui-gons lightsaber is not always gna convieniently be there for him is it?? what could Obi-Wan have possibly done if Qui-Gon wasnt there?? urm nothing... he was absolutely pawned... completely and utterly.. oh but Obi-Wan split Mauls lightsaber in 2 and kicked him to the ground!!! who cares?? that was the only hit Obi-Wan ever got on Maul the whole fight, and then Maul just got right back up and pawned him!

and yes Obi-Wan was getting tired... if you cant see that then your just in denial... it was obvious, he gave it everything his anger could give him.

ROTS Obi-Wan beats Maul (one of the greatest Sith Apprentices of all time) with a lot of difficulty. Whilst Maul absolutely pawns TPM Obi-Wan. This is just fact. its obvious to anyone whose seen TPM... im not being biased here at all. Obi-Wan was not even a match for Qui-Gon in TPM.. who got pawned by Maul.

Sidi-Boy

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Obi-Wan was not even a match for Qui-Gon in TPM

Prove it.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Obi-Wan was just lucky that Qui-Gons lightsaber was there... Qui-gons lightsaber is not always gna convieniently be there for him is it?? what could Obi-Wan have possibly done if Qui-Gon wasnt there?? urm nothing... he was absolutely pawned... completely and utterly.. oh but Obi-Wan split Mauls lightsaber in 2 and kicked him to the ground!!! who cares?? that was the only hit Obi-Wan ever got on Maul the whole fight, and then Maul just got right back up and pawned him!

Don't give in to your anger... anger leads to hate, hate... leads to suffering.

Jk.

Anyways, back to reality now; I'm not sure Obi-Wan would be "completely pawned" (pawned, by the way, is something like auctioned... it's correctly spelled 'pwned', actually. xD). Right then, if you would notice, the ONLY blows Maul got on Obi-Wan was kicking, and the force push. He didn't get any close to him with his saber- in fact, even when Maul was using a double saber, he couldn't penetrate Obi-Wan's defense, which seemed to effortlessly parry his attacks. Oh, yeah, why do you keep insisting on saying "Maul pwned him!"? All evidence actually see it as Maul barely managing to get Kenobi off of him with that force push. Please...

If the duel was one even ground, it'd be CLOSER. See, Maul disarmed Obi-Wan twice during the course of the duel; both times, he sent Obi-Wan falling down a ledge. Now, imagine a similar duel; but this time, Maul's kicks only send Obi-Wan knocked backwards rather than disarm him. Obi-Wan destroyed Maul's weapon; he got close to sabering him, something that Maul did not achieve during the fight. He didn't even come close to killing him with some blow.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
and yes Obi-Wan was getting tired... if you cant see that then your just in denial... it was obvious, he gave it everything his anger could give him.

I think you're the one in denial. Can't you see the fact that everyone here AGREES that he was getting somewhat tired near the end? Not really tired, but somewhat tired... yet you insist on believing everyone here thinks "lol Obi-Wan pwned him" in a fair fight. Oh, by the way...anger isn't always useful. Anakin used anger, too, and see where it got him, no? I'm talking about him fighting Obi.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
ROTS Obi-Wan beats Maul (one of the greatest Sith Apprentices of all time) with a lot of difficulty. Whilst Maul absolutely pawns TPM Obi-Wan. This is just fact. its obvious to anyone whose seen TPM... im not being biased here at all.

Err... lol. I saw TPM, everyone here saw TPM... and you still seem to be on a minority. Nobody accused you of being biased; you're entitled to your own opinion, fair and square. You just repeat arguments on and on while ignoring what we say... 'a lot of difficulty"? Don't exaggerrate, please. 'One of the strongest sith apprentices in history?' Vague. But, despite many people saying that the Old Sith are the strongest, I'm of the opinion that the modern sith are far superior to the old sith. Aka Marka Ragnos, Revan, etc... and so are the Jedi. I don't see Maul comparing with Mustafar Vader. As the movies progressed, Sidious' sith apprentices got more annd more powerful- first Maul, then Dooku, then Sidious and pre-suit Vader... if pre-suit Vader was anything like Maul, why would Sidious have any interest replacing Maul? It was said Sidious foresaw Maul's demise. It could only because he opted for a stronger apprentice, which he got, in the form of Anakin. And as Obi-Wan beat Anakin... well, I think he'll beat Maul too. Without a lot of difficulty, but certainly not a walk in the park.

truejedi

hate to jump in like this: but i do think maul controlled his duel with the two Jedi on naboo. Maul beat qui gonn, and until you can prove that TPM obi-wan was a match for qui gonn, you can't say he was. sorry, but burden of proof is with you. Qui gonn was a master, capable of sitting on the council, Obi-wan was an apprentice. If you can't prove they were on the same level, i'm not accepting it.

Maul disarmed Obi-wan. You said it would have been closer, had he not fallen over a ledge, and that is incorrect, had he not fallen down a ledge, you would have had obi-wan lying on his back getting skewered by maul. Falling down the second ledge saved his life.

Synopsis:

Maul versus TPM kenobi rematch= Maul wins easily.
Maul versus ROTS kenobi= Kenobi wins even easier than maul won the one above.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Prove it.

someones already given the proof for that. TPM Novel describes Obi-Wan as "Not yet Qui-Gons equal.." not that it needs to be proved.. if Obi-Wan was equal to Qui-Gon then he wuldnt have got left behind in the fight.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

Don't give in to your anger... anger leads to hate, hate... leads to suffering.

Jk.

am trying to keep on the light side here.. lol

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

Anyways, back to reality now; I'm not sure Obi-Wan would be "completely pawned" (pawned, by the way, is something like auctioned... it's correctly spelled 'pwned', actually. xD). Right then, if you would notice, the ONLY blows Maul got on Obi-Wan was kicking, and the force push. He didn't get any close to him with his saber- in fact, even when Maul was using a double saber, he couldn't penetrate Obi-Wan's defense, which seemed to effortlessly parry his attacks. Oh, yeah, why do you keep insisting on saying "Maul pwned him!"? All evidence actually see it as Maul barely managing to get Kenobi off of him with that force push. Please....

kick and force push's shows whose dominating the fight.. and is the first step to slicing them with your blade.. as we see with Maul vs. Qui-Gon.. he first hits him with the handle in the head and then takes the opening to kill him. Obi-Wan only got in that one hit the whole fight... and that was Obi-Wan much more angry than Maul(at that point) and Maul still got up and carried on fighting.. Maul got in plenty of hits which would have finished Obi-Wan off if not for Qui-Gon.

and yes in that final fight Obi-Wan gave it everything and put up a good fight. but it was still a relatively short fight in comparison to most lightsaber battles. and by the way that Force Push... it was more like a Force Flick! Lol! Maul owned at that point.. I dnt see any evidenc pointing to the contrary.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

If the duel was one even ground, it'd be CLOSER. See, Maul disarmed Obi-Wan twice during the course of the duel; both times, he sent Obi-Wan falling down a ledge. Now, imagine a similar duel; but this time, Maul's kicks only send Obi-Wan knocked backwards rather than disarm him. Obi-Wan destroyed Maul's weapon; he got close to sabering him, something that Maul did not achieve during the fight. He didn't even come close to killing him with some blow.....

actually the second time Maul disarmed Obi-Wan his lightsaber fell out of his hand before he fell down the shaft.. and he culdnt stop himself rolling down.. so on even ground Obi-Wan still would have been on the floor with some distance between him and his lightsaber. Whilst Maul was standing on top of him Lightsaber ignited. So ill let you figure out what would have happened next.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

'a lot of difficulty"? Don't exaggerrate, please. 'One of the strongest sith apprentices in history?' Vague.

well if you prove to me Obi-Wan can win without a lot of difficulty, then i might agree with you. but you have to prove it first. becuase as far as I can see youve got "the Master of Soresu" vs. a Master of Juyo, therfore also a high level master of several other forms, someone whose been trained by Sidious from day 1 to be a jedi killer, mixed various martial arts into his combat technique and very apt in using a single blade or double bladed weapon. Not saying your wrong about ROTS obi-Wan beating him without too much effort. just saying provide arguments/proof/eveidence to back this up, and then I might start believing it.

and about Maul being one of the best Sith Apprentices in history, is usually what Maul bios say about him.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

I don't see Maul comparing with Mustafar Vader. As the movies progressed, Sidious' sith apprentices got more annd more powerful- first Maul, then Dooku, then Sidious and pre-suit Vader...

I dnt see Maul being a match for pre-suit Vader either. but remember Dooku pwned Obi-Wan who in turn got beaten by pre-suit Anakin. so the A>B>C argument doesnt work here.

Sidi-Boy

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
someones already given the proof for that. TPM Novel describes Obi-Wan as "Not yet Qui-Gons equal.." not that it needs to be proved.. if Obi-Wan was equal to Qui-Gon then he wuldnt have got left behind in the fight.

Understood. I didn't read the novel ^^.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
kick and force push's shows whose dominating the fight.. and is the first step to slicing them with your blade.. as we see with Maul vs. Qui-Gon.. he first hits him with the handle in the head and then takes the opening to kill him. Obi-Wan only got in that one hit the whole fight... and that was Obi-Wan much more angry than Maul(at that point) and Maul still got up and carried on fighting.. Maul got in plenty of hits which would have finished Obi-Wan off if not for Qui-Gon.

Not necessarily. Even more than Vader, Maul is an angry person; he is a bloodthirsty beast, as described by Dooku, and note the eagerness in his voice when he says "At last, we shall have revenge...". Maul was extremely intent on killing his opponent, which is the Sith way. Measuring their levels of anger won't do.

Ah- what's easier to land, a kick, or a lightsaber blow? A kick was only shown to have a meaningful effect on a fight during Sidious vs. Mace. Please. Kicks do not indicate superiority.

Anakin kicked Obi-Wan several times in the fight, and who won?

Dooku effortlessly kicked Anakin when he force-grabbed Obi-Wan, but who won the fight?

You see my point, I hope; kicks do not necessarily display superiory to an opponent, as do force pushes. Also, remember; Obi-Wan's kick, unlike Maul's later kick (when he kicked him after the single lightsaber barrage) knocked Maul on the FLOOR. Obi-Wan was simply knocked backwards. It's true Obi-Wan's anger played a valid factor; but anger merely gives you a more intense desire to win. It's harnessed anger- like Sidious' and Dooku's- which unlocks more abilities, like Force Lightning, while simple rage will only get you to WANT to kill your opponent more.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
and yes in that final fight Obi-Wan gave it everything and put up a good fight. but it was still a relatively short fight in comparison to most lightsaber battles. and by the way that Force Push... it was more like a Force Flick! Lol! Maul owned at that point.. I dnt see any evidenc pointing to the contrary.

Qui-Gon vs. Maul was shorter. Now, you know what? I'll pull off my speciality and show you a step-by step analysis of the fight to root my opinion better.

Step One- First Engagement: During this part, Obi-Wan leapt out of the weird pinky shield and attacked Maul wirh a few strikes, who quickly retaliated with his own, both pushing the other somewhat; they seem to be dead equal during this part, but Obi-Wan's rage just grows.