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Who wins?

has to be kenobi. We just don't know enough about maul to put him in the class of ROTS Obi-wan, who was, if you remember, the LONE jedi that the jedi council sent after grievous, who was a leader who made a living, KILLING jedi. He had already defeated Plo Kloon in single combat, as well as several other jedi masters. (Shaak Ti?) That the council sent Kenobi to kill grievous by himself speaks volumes of his abilities. His obvious victory over Anakin speaks for itself. Maul simply didn't have the same quality opponents to test himself against. His top opponent, was PROBABLY Qui Gon, and he was superior to Jinn, but we just know more about Obi-Wan's ability.

ROTS Obiwan wins with a fair amount of.And btw truejedi Quigon was not the Maul's top opponent, it would be Anoon Bondara who prior to his death had lightsaber skills "second to none."

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
ROTS Obiwan wins with a fair amount of.And btw truejedi Quigon was not the Maul's top opponent, it would be Anoon Bondara who prior to his death had lightsaber skills "second to none."

thats true... but, they said that qui gonn jinn was rival to yoda himself. wasn't it bondara's padawan who termed bondara thus? padawans all seem to have inflated opinions of their masters it seems. and technically, maul didnt kill bondara, bondara sacrificed himself, though it is true maul dominated their duel.

Originally posted by truejedi
thats true... but, they said that qui gonn jinn was rival to yoda himself. wasn't it bondara's padawan who termed bondara thus? padawans all seem to have inflated opinions of their masters it seems. and technically, maul didnt kill bondara, bondara sacrificed himself, though it is true maul dominated their duel.

Nope it was the narrator who said this about him and said a very similar comment in another book about him.

"Second to none" is vague as hell.

Kenobi wins without using his limbs.

Kenobi probably won't have an easy time, though.

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
"Second to none" is vague as hell.




Yea "his skill with a lightsaber was second none" is vague as hell

Originally posted by Lt. Valerian
Kenobi probably won't have an easy time, though.

it wont be hard either. remember kenobi slaughtered grevious who had twice as many sabers and more dexterity than maul.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Yea "his skill with a lightsaber was second none" is vague as hell

Yeah. It is.

Originally posted by Man of Christ
it wont be hard either. remember kenobi slaughtered grevious who had twice as many sabers and more dexterity than maul.

No, it would be difficult we saw some type of resurrected Maul nearly kill Vader. Furthemore is the fact that Obiwan's style was the best for facing Grievious and I believe Mace even said that Obiwan had the best chance out of anyone in the order to kill the general. You can't compare the two without at least looking into the details of his victory over Grievious.


Than please elaborate.

I won't. I'm not trying to pass anything off as fact. I'm just biased against Maul is all. I think he's overrated. Just ignore my ramblings.

I say Kenobi kicks ass here.
He killed him the first time(it may have been luck).
He killed Grievous.
He defeated presuit Vader on Mustafar.
And there simply isn't enough known about Maul to say that he could be Kenobi. He has a chance from what I hear, but he's def. going down.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
No, it would be difficult we saw some type of resurrected Maul nearly kill Vader. Furthemore is the fact that Obiwan's style was the best for facing Grievious and I believe Mace even said that Obiwan had the best chance out of anyone in the order to kill the general. You can't compare the two without at least looking into the details of his victory over Grievious.


Than please elaborate.

a ressurected maul lol is that even Cannon?
furthermore what more detail do i need?
in 3 seconds of the duel he chopped of two of his 4 hands?
besides if a padawan obi wan killed maul why should a master obi have trouble?
obi wan withstood anakin's onslaught so i think he can comfortably take out maul

The reply to your 4th question, is that Maul was "surprised" by Obi-Wan and he let his guard down.

Realistically, that goes to show that Maul isn't as good a fighter as people make him out to be, because even if he has good dueling skills, he's an idiot. Thus, his idiocy would result in him losing.

No one takes idiocy into consideration in debates though, otherwise 90% of the bad guys would lose.

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk

Realistically, that goes to show that Maul isn't as good a fighter as people make him out to be, because even if he has good dueling skills, he's an idiot. Thus, his idiocy would result in him losing.



O that was Rotfl hillarious, (wipes tears from laughing) i never though of it that way and you put it so bluntly

good stuff

Didn't half cyborg-Maul lose to Kenobi?

Originally posted by Man of Christ
a ressurected maul lol is that even Cannon?

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Resurrection#cite_note-1





Already addressed that Obiwan's fighting style was the best as Mace said he had the best chance to win and last I checked Obiwan's style was not said to be the best to vs Maul as it was said vs Grievous. Though Grievous was injured beforehand it is neither here nor there for this fight.


How many times now have I proven you wrong that Maul outdueled TPM Obiwan and was the better fighter? Yet you still go back to this one point.


It is a great feat for sure but you neglect to mention how well they knew each other inside and out. And just because he won the duel at Mustafar doesn't automatically mean that this duel would be easy for him. Which is my whole argument that Maul simply wont die without giving Kenobi a fairly tough battle.

Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist
Didn't half cyborg-Maul lose to Kenobi?

I'm pretty sure that was the comic considered not to be canon.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Resurrection#cite_note-1
Already addressed that Obiwan's fighting style was the best as Mace said he had the best chance to win and last I checked Obiwan's style was not said to be the best to vs Maul as it was said vs Grievous. Though Grievous was injured beforehand it is neither here nor there for this fight.


How many times now have I proven you wrong that Maul outdueled TPM Obiwan and was the better fighter? Yet you still go back to this one point.


It is a great feat for sure but you neglect to mention how well they knew each other inside and out. And just because he won the duel at Mustafar doesn't automatically mean that this duel would be easy for him. Which is my whole argument that Maul simply wont die without giving Kenobi a fairly tough battle.


1) grevious knows all forms including juyo so if obi wan is best against grevious, then that means he can beat grevious even when he is using juyo, and given the computer chip i am 100% certain that grevious can use juyo better than maul.so if obi could easily disarm grievous (pun intended) then he will have an even easier time with maul
but guess what?
maul has a dexterity disadvantage of dual wielding which will hurt him against obi's reflexes.

2)maul is an idiot and either way he is still dead as a doornail get over it

3)what he did to grevous he will do to maul, easily

Maul's idiocy does not count against him in a debate, even if is a reason why he's not a good duelist.

A character's personality doesn't really come into play in most debates unless it's specified, I.E> "In teh zone Anakin".

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Nope it was the narrator who said this about him and said a very similar comment in another book about him.

ah, my bad. Hard to believe they would put him ahead of Yoda though... Sometimes authors seem to want THEIR character to be the most uber ever, so they put in phrases like that that don't seem to fit with the rest of the Star Wars universe at all.

Originally posted by Man of Christ
1) grevious knows all forms including juyo so if obi wan is best against grevious, then that means he can beat grevious even when he is using juyo, and given the computer chip i am 100% certain that grevious can use juyo better than maul.

Than with that petty logic Grieviosu should be better than Dooku at Makashi,better than Mace at Vapaad and better than Yoda at ataro but do you think Grievous can be any of them in saber combat? No this logic has no merit to it. Hence one of the reasons that XYZ arguments usually are flawed.






In is career he made two mistake of being over confident (vs obiwan and vader) however if your read any other material about Maul you would know that he is normally the silent assassin type who doesn't toy around. And you are the one who needs to get over the fact that TPM Maul>TMP Obiwan among others.

Originally posted by truejedi
ah, my bad. Hard to believe they would put him ahead of Yoda though... Sometimes authors seem to want THEIR character to be the most uber ever, so they put in phrases like that that don't seem to fit with the rest of the Star Wars universe at all.
Much like is happening with other characters like Jacen and Boba fett. But like I said in another thread I seriously have doubts if Anoon could be ROTS Yoda in a strict saber duel.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Much like is happening with other characters like Jacen and Boba fett.
I know! I hate how powerful they make Jacen , or Caedus, look.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Than with that petty logic Grieviosu should be better than Dooku at Makashi,better than Mace at Vapaad and better than Yoda at ataro but do you think Grievous can be any of them in saber combat? No this logic has no merit to it. Hence one of the reasons that XYZ arguments usually are flawed.

In is career he made two mistake of being over confident (vs obiwan and vader) however if your read any other material about Maul you would know that he is normally the silent assassin type who doesn't toy around. And you are the one who needs to get over the fact that TPM Maul>TMP Obiwan among others.

1) i also spoke of the computer chip which you didnt respond to. it gives grevous accuracy thats better than, sentient life and he has two additional arms which enhance his juyo abilities beyond Mauls but not beyond those jedi masters you mentions ALL OF WHOM ARE BETTER THAN MAUL AND ALL OF WHOM GREVOUS WAS WARNED TO AVOID.

2) maul is still dead like it or not

Originally posted by skywalker833
I know! I hate how powerful they make Jacen , or Caedus, look.

really, they make him look really weak, and then keep talking about how powerful he is. mebbe that's why he's so annoying.

Originally posted by Man of Christ
1) i also spoke of the computer chip which you didnt respond to. it gives grevous accuracy thats better than, sentient life and he has two additional arms which enhance his juyo abilities beyond Mauls but not beyond those jedi masters you mentions
I know you spoke of a computer chip and my point is that a computer chip doesn't automatically mean Grievous is better a juyo than Maul which is why I mentioned other names.


No shit sherlock, I debating that he doesn't go down without giving Kenobi difficulty.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
I know you spoke of a computer chip and my point is that a computer chip doesn't automatically mean Grievous is better a juyo than Maul which is why I mentioned other names.


No shit sherlock, I debating that he doesn't go down without giving Kenobi difficulty.
the only way your premise could operate is if you beleive that maul is some sorta threat to grevous, now is that what you think?

Originally posted by Man of Christ
the only way your premise could operate is if you beleive that maul is some sorta threat to grevous, now is that what you think?

i think maul could threaten grievous. Simple reasoning: Maul has the force, Grievous doesn't. The ROTS novel makes clear that Grievous was only beaten by Obi-Wan because Obi-Wan was completely in tune with the force. it also makes it sound like Grievous never had a chance. (Obi-Wan bending Grievous's duranium arm is what i offer as proof here)
Maul would have a chance against Obi-Wan, but i pick Kenobi, BECAUSE he purposely switched to soresu after fighting maul the first time. He realized that ataru had weaknesses that soresu doesn't have, so it must mean he had improved his chances of defeated maul.

What?

I was under the impression that Obi-Wan didn't start learning Soresu until after the movie.

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
What?

I was under the impression that Obi-Wan didn't start learning Soresu until after the movie.

yeah, that's exactly what i was saying. Obi-Wan learned Soresu because of his duel with Maul.

Kenobi takes this. Easily.

Maul fights similarly to Anakin; he's an idiot when it comes to tctics, but he has immensely good dueling skills; it's like comparing Anakin to Bane and Maul to Sidious, as they use the same style (if you believe Sidious uses Juyo, which seems to be the most likely), but do it much more skillfully and with more intelligence. As such, Maul is the ideal opponent for Kenobi, who can probably deflect the number of blows Maul can deal upon him by giving ground, using Ataru acrobatics and almost impenetrable Soresu defense.

Simple speed isn't enough to penetrate Soresu; we all saw how Grevious, who was probably among Anakin, Sidious, and Yoda as the fastest attackers, not be able to penetrate Obi-Wan's defense, who simply took an advantage in his openings, slicing off his hands. Maul, I believe, is ROTS Grevious' equal with a lightsaber, and is stronger in the force- but less intelligent. Thus, I'd say Obi-Wan takes this hands down by handling a few blows, slicing his saberstaff in half and subsequently relieving Maul of his head.

Maul is good, but if we're going to use NG's lightsaber-ranking skills, I'd give him probably a 7... roughly equal to AOTC Obi-Wan...

Originally posted by Man of Christ
the only way your premise could operate is if you beleive that maul is some sorta threat to grevous, now is that what you think?

See truejedi's post and it seems everyone Obiwan wins(which I already said he would be it will not be easy) just because he beat GG in somewhat easy fashion in a lightsaber duel doesn' mean Maul lose a saber duel as fast the GG did before he retreated. I already gave my reasons that Obiwan the best choice to face Grievous and I have stated why Maul is a good enough fighter to give Obiwan difficulty.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
See truejedi's post and it seems everyone Obiwan wins(which I already said he would be it will not be easy) just because he beat GG in somewhat easy fashion in a lightsaber duel doesn' mean Maul lose a saber duel as fast the GG did before he retreated. I already gave my reasons that Obiwan the best choice to face Grievous and I have stated why Maul is a good enough fighter to give Obiwan difficulty.

obi wan punished grevous easily,
grevous>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wait im not done>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.a turkey sandwich>>maul.

so obi wan wont have any trouble with maul. after all, he studied qui gon's mistakes and already dueled maul so he knows what to do.
maul is a match for padawan kenobi
maul would give knight kenobi some trouble
maul gives master kenobi no trouble

God fecking damn you for stretching out the page.

Is anybody actually saying that Maul would win? Kenobi takes this, but not easily.

Nah.

Originally posted by Man of Christ
this isnt xyz because grevous never dueled maul, its just a logical answer.

Youa re saying that just because Kenobi beat Grievous with "ease" than he can do the same with Maul which is essentially the basic principles of an XYZ argument.




You truly are ignorant. Boondara had better lightsaber skills at the time of his death than anyone else in the jedi order. And Maul made him realize that Anonn couldn't win. To the intelligent that speaks highly of Maul's lightsaber prowess.



lol, Dooku was an APPRENTICE and held the same rank of Maul and he knocked out Kenobi, Darth Vader was an APPRENTICE yet hew could at the very least give kenobi a hard battle. So your pitiful attempt to discount the quote just because of Kenobi's higher rank fail s miserably. (what a shock there)


The five jedi he fought in the CW were already in battle and were thus not at 100%. And once again Obiwan was specifically chosen to face Grievous due to his style's advantage that it gives him over the overly aggressive Grievous. And Quigon still was "one of the most able duelist in the order" even as of TPM and Obiwan as not your average jedi and did I mentioned that Maul was injured at the time of the duel?



Darth Maul shadow hunter:



The idea that Maul will get wtfpwnd is clearly flawed. He goes down in a duel about the full length of TPM duel only Maul and Kenobi's position/leverage can very well be revesered from the tpm duel.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Youa re saying that just because Kenobi beat Grievous with "ease" than he can do the same with Maul which is essentially the basic principles of an XYZ argument.




You truly are ignorant. Boondara had better lightsaber skills at the time of his death than anyone else in the jedi order. And Maul made him realize that Anonn couldn't win. To the intelligent that speaks highly of Maul's lightsaber prowess.



lol, Dooku was an APPRENTICE and held the same rank of Maul and he knocked out Kenobi, Darth Vader was an APPRENTICE yet hew could at the very least give kenobi a hard battle. So your pitiful attempt to discount the quote just because of Kenobi's higher rank fail s miserably. (what a shock there)


The five jedi he fought in the CW were already in battle and were thus not at 100%. And once again Obiwan was specifically chosen to face Grievous due to his style's advantage that it gives him over the overly aggressive Grievous. And Quigon still was "one of the most able duelist in the order" even as of TPM and Obiwan as not your average jedi and did I mentioned that Maul was injured at the time of the duel?



Darth Maul shadow hunter:



The idea that Maul will get wtfpwnd is clearly flawed. He goes down in a duel about the full length of TPM duel only Maul and Kenobi's position/leverage can very well be revesered from the tpm duel.

now now no need to bash, i never called you ignorant i expect the same respect from you.
so lets continue to be civilized shall we.

1) you speak of boondara who was top AT HIS TIME and MASTER kenobi wasnt around back then so you cant say he was better than MASTER kenobi

2) you excerpt doesnt prove that he MOVED HIS LIGHTSABER at 20 strokes per second it just says he moved at unnatural speed.

3) no need for all this hoopla its simple math and logic. master kenobi had no trouble with the swift grevous and so maul who is much slower would be even easier. grevous had 4 blades maul had only 2 with a limited dexterity because the blades are connected making him even weaker against kenobi. he gets pwnd. next thread please, and not one for people who over rate maul

Originally posted by Man of Christ
1) you speak of boondara who was top AT HIS TIME and MASTER kenobi wasnt around back then so you cant say he was better than MASTER kenobi
Ah but one Mace Windu and a younger Yoda(note that some people think in your anoon thread that his skills are still there with ROTS Yoda) was around at this not to mention all the top jedi we see in the clone wars and then some who died before hand and beating the best of tens of thousands is certainly impressive.


Except Kenobi didn't really have to move his lightsaber to much since the angles of GG initial attack of the two spinning blades were the same. And I don't have to prove that Maul's reflexes were better than Obiwan's or necessarily equal to Obiwan's. As the novel says Maul make his hands move like a blur and unnatural speed, as the rest of the passage shows among others, Maul is clearly no slouch, further supporting my claim that he doesn't lose this battle easily.



See above for Maul's skill and the only "swift" maneuver GG was the spinning blades technique. He didn't move no where near the speed we see him deliver in CW Cartoons or LOE. Funny how 90% of the threads that i have debated a point for Maul has vs you for underrating Maul, which I have won all them.

EDIT: And to further add to my Anoon point,w e know as Cin Drallig states that Yoda very rarely gives any lightsaber demonsration I see no reason why to think his skills shortly prior to TPM were anything less than what we see in the AOTC vs dooku.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Ah but one Mace Windu and a younger Yoda(note that some people think in your anoon thread that his skills are still there with ROTS Yoda) was around at this not to mention all the top jedi we see in the clone wars and then some who died before hand beating the best of tens of thousands is certainly impressive.

Except Kenobi didn't really have to move his lightsaber to much since the angles of GG initial attack of the two spinning blades were the same. And I don't have to prove that Maul's reflexes were better than Obiwan's or necessarily equal to Obiwan's. As the novel says Maul make his hands move like a blir and unnatural speed, as the rest of the passage shows among others, Maul is clearly no slouch, further supporting my claim that he doesn't lose this battle easily.


See above for Maul's skill and the only "swift" maneuver GG was the spinning blades technique. He didn't move no where near the speed we see him deliver in CW Cartoons or LOE. Funny how 90% of the threads that i have debated a point for Maul has vs you for underrating Maul, which I have won all them.

1) in my anoon vs rots yoda thread thier opinions are not neccesarily cannon, yoda was younger and mace hadnt mastered vaapad yet, and even the anoon durring the time of PADAWAN kenobi had nothing to do with MASTER kenobi. besides that whole "second to none" rating goes out the window if yoda was the most powerful force darkness ever knew.

2) so, kenobi's reflexes were so good that a 4 BLADED duelest got outmanuevederd by him in 3 seconds. what can a 2 BLADED duelist whose blades are attached with a dexterity handicap do to match that? nothing

3) the title of this thread specifies that maul is in his tpm state so the broken ankles that he has to duel rots kenobi with will add to his recieving of pwnage

4) i will be honest, i hate maul's guts and think he is the worst idea for a sith ever and i was glad when kenobi KILLED him. but i dont underrate him its just that rots kenobi is so gooooooooood at this point that maul cant lift a finger to him.

5) dont let your ego consume you young padawan

Originally posted by Man of Christ
1) in my anoon vs rots yoda thread thier opinions are not neccesarily cannon, yoda was younger and mace hadnt mastered vaapad yet, and even the anoon durring the time of PADAWAN kenobi had nothing to do with MASTER kenobi. ew.

No but it give incite to the general consensus of the forum.




WRONG, the quote said he was seconds to none lightsaber skill,no mention of his force skill (though it was fairly impressive but that is neither here nor there) Yoda was the most powerful overall. And as I said in a thread months ago the degree to which Anoon was better than Yoda was never specified.



Once again the fighting styles of Maul and GG are completely different. And the second blade allows for different angles of attack then 4 single blades. and btw the "nothing" part is your unsupported opinion as I already proved that Maul has very impressive reflexes.


Yet this was the same maul who killed one of the most able duelists of the jedi order( and i believe he was considered a near equal to Mace at this time) and his highly regarded padawan who even when using the darkside was outdueled. And by clinging to the thread title sounds alot like desperation.


your unsupported opinion as I have been dealing with the same points from you in atleast 3 different threads and countered them all.


Its not ego at all. Generally in a kmc debate the one's who are actively debating don't usually concede when they are wrong. However in the the other two threads in which you and I debated on Maul most people were persuaded to my side of thought if they did not already think so and my arguments were all backed up by the necessary canon sources. Unless the people provide unsupported argument and say this character wtf pwnzors another character or show total ignorance to logical points. And even in this thread you have skipped a few of my points that speak of Maul's skill and prove that he is not going down easily.

And to quote myself

how did maul break his ankles?

Originally posted by truejedi
how did maul break his ankles?

I think it was his knee but here is the piece in the episode one jouranl:darth maul

Impossible as it may seem, I have made an error. Out of impatience or a residue of exhaustion, who can say.

The Sand People advance on me angrily. In their breath masks and goggles they are protected from the sand that now stings my eyes and clogs my mouth.

The howling intensifies. The Raiders shake their gaderffii and begin to surround me. There are just too many of them. I can take out four or five in the flicker of an eyelash, but that will just infuriate the rest.

Frustration boils inside me. These interruptions deflect me from my mission.

I never run away from a battle. But this one will tax me, and my strength is needed for the Jedi. If my Master hears I have been wounded, he will be furious.

All of these calculations race through my mind, faster than the Tusken Raiders are moving. One fierce Raider is the first to come at me, racing forward with his stick held high. It is easy for me to fake a dodge to the left, then make a half turn and kick him from behind as he staggers, surprised that there is now empty air where I had been standing.

He falls hard, spraying sand. This gratifies me, but it does not please his companions.

The Tusken Raiders have maneuvered me closer to the sheer face of the canyon wall. They think they have trapped me. They plan to take their time slicing me to ribbons, enjoying what they think is my fear.

At that moment, my wrist comlink sends off an alert signal. One of the probe droids has found something. The noise splits the eerie silence in the canyon. Even the Tusken Raiders pause.

The Jedi have been located. I must get back to the Infiltrator.

I turn my back to them, but only for an instant. I run straight for the canyon wall. I don't have much distance to cover, so I have to run fast. I feel the tearing wound in my left thigh, but I push it aside. Pain is another annoyance. It will not slow me down.

I run up the sheer wall, calling up the dark side to escape my enemies. My contempt and my anger at the Tusken Raiders help me. I am able to scale the wall despite the pain. With a final burst of strength that sends red agony through my leg, I flip over backward, fly over the surprised upturned faces of the Raiders, and land behind them.

They are so startled they don't react. That gives me a head start. I take off through the canyon, heading back to my ship. My wound troubles me, but now my annoyance is toward myself for feeling it. I force myself to run with my usual strength and speed.

They are no match for me. They chase me, shaking their gaderffii sticks, but they cannot catch me. I am a streak of darkness, faster than light.

I make it back to the ship. I see out the windshield that the Tusken Raiders stand a hundred meters away. They talk among themselves, waving their arms. But I know they'll give up, and they do. They trudge off, looking for easier prey.

The droid appears a few minutes later. I check its readout. One Jedi was spotted in Mos Espa. The coordinates indicate that he is heading out of the spaceport. He is most likely returning to his ship.

Jedi, I hope you are complacent right now. I hope you think you are safe for the moment. I know your arrogance tells you that you are a match for whoever is looking for you. Your surprise will add to my pleasure when I destroy you.

hmmm, doesn't say exactly what the wound is, does it? (and thanks for the post!)

Personally, I'm still rather certain Obi-Wan would take this, probably 8/10 times or something along the lines of that- this is not saying Kenobi's Soresu thoroughly out-classes Maul's Juyo, but rather that Obi-Wan will PSYCHOLOGICALLY reduce Maul to an angry beast.

Grievous, along with Mustafar Vader, are arguably Kenobi's most impressive defeats during his history of being a Jedi; they're both similar to Maul, especially Vader. Remember, there was NOTHING to indicate the fact that Maul is an intelligent fighter; similar to Anakin. He had skills that were superior to TPM Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon, but ultimately lost due to be overconfidence.

However, I think that Kenobi will take out Maul Grievous-style; Maul's barrage of Juyo attacks (which specialize in speed; no-one is claiming Maul is SLOW) will, despite using the Double-Blade to form an apparent advantage, be utterly incapable of penetrating Obi-Wan's defense, causing Maul to become angry and frustrated, and his attacks will become sloppy and less percise; eventually, Obi-Wan will likely cut off his hands or disarm him.

It's true Maul has one near-defeat and one defeat that are extremely impressive; one is almost killing Sidious, who managed to fight equally against Yoda later on in a lightsaber duel, and the other is this Anoon Bondara person. I seriously think that 'second to none' lightsaber skills are an exaggerration, which the authors of some novels have a tendency to do, similarly to how Mace's B-team was composed of 'some of the finest swordsmen in the order'.

Against Sidious, Maul didn't almost kill-him; rather, Sidious quickly disarmed Maul, who DID successfully catch him off-guard with an array of vicious attacks; note that Sidious was only using a training lightsaber, indicating he was NOT trying to kill Maul during the fight, but rather test Maul's abilities when he completely surrendered to the dark side. Being starved, mentally weak, and angry would have EMPOWERED Maul rather than weakening him, using the pain to enhance the power of his dark side abilities, becoming a dervish of rage. But once again, Sidious beat him.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
It's true Maul has one near-defeat and one defeat that are extremely impressive; one is almost killing Sidious, who managed to fight equally against Yoda later on in a lightsaber duel, and the other is this Anoon Bondara person. I seriously think that 'second to none' lightsaber skills are an exaggerration, which the authors of some novels have a tendency to do, similarly to how Mace's B-team was composed of 'some of the finest swordsmen in the order'.

The only thing is that in the same book (Darth Maul Shadow Hunter) Yoda was called the best lightsaber duelist on the council and Anoon was never on the council. And I believe that the wording of that quote is similar to Anoon's but it added the jedi council to while Anoon's didn't. Though Anoon also had the quote from Cloack of Deception to back it up that his saber skills were considreable. Mind you that this was shortly before TPM though. But even then Yoda very rarely even gave lightsaber demonstrations and really didn't participate on missions so I don't see his skills improving too much if at all until AOTC which is around the level that I would personally put Anoon's lightsaber skills around the AOTC Dooku/Yoda.

Kenobi. Without breaking a sweat.
That's my opinion.
If Obi-Wan can deal with Grievous and Vader, I think he should be able to defeat Maul easily.

Originally posted by truejedi
hmmm, doesn't say exactly what the wound is, does it? (and thanks for the post!)

I know, I don't actually own the journals and I have not found them online to read so I just copied and paste that from wookieepedia. Though i seem to remember a statement(and commenting on it) that said Mau was not going to tell Sidious about his injury because he would have been mad.

Originally posted by In Rainbows
Kenobi. Without breaking a sweat.
That's my opinion.
If Obi-Wan can deal with Grievous and Vader, I think he should be able to defeat Maul easily.
A little late in the game to post such statement, as me and Man of Christ have been debating this and if you read the debate you would know that I covered parts of this.

This is one of things that piss me off,me and MOC are in the middle of the debate and as much as i disagree with him on this issue, he is still trying to post an argument that is based on more than a single sentence. And it is not just in this thread but all threads when there is a big debate going someone posts there opinion without backing it up while everyone else iadressing several different points,etc.

Right. Well, sorry then. I was just saying who would win according to me. If it'll make you happy, I'll read your little debate already.

No wait, I have to take a shit. Sounds like a lot more fun to me.

I think people are putting Darth Maul's chances really short here.

lets see he mastered juyo(a form 7 lightsaber style).. and to do this he would have to be a high level master of other lightsaber forms as well.

hes completely mastered the use of a deadly double sided lightsaber. and is also versatile and can switch to a single sided one when thats more useful/convinient. hes mixed different martial arts into his fighting style as well. he was simply trained from a young age by Sidious to be like the perfect jedi killer. he was pretty much a bad ****.

he extended his fighting skills to a wide range and the chances are not even Sidious was well versed in all the different fighting techniques which Maul incorporated into his own.

and then theres Kenobi whose "The Master" of Soresu. and is also pretty good with Ataru.

and hasnt Lucas put Maul, Dooku and OT Vader all in the same league somewhere. If anyone knows then please point that out. So in terms of Lightsaber combat id put him in Nick Gillards ranking as a level 8. But one of the higher level 8's like Dooku. Yeah id put his lightsaber skills in league with Dookus, but would say Dookus better due to his superior mastery of the Force. So that would certainly make Maul a good match for ROTS Obi-Wan.

I make this a long exhausting fight for both fighters, which could go either way. Just in fighting abilties, not talking about anyone outsamrting the other. If that comes into play then il give the win to Obi-Wan. But just for the record, when did Darth Maul become so stupid??

The only reason why Kenobi was able to beat Grevious so easily nwas becuase grevious didn't have the same advantage as Kenobi. He was stated to be completely in tune with the force. So although Grevious can attack alot in a short period of time, Kenobi knows where each strike will be and can thus dodge or block it and then when to counter attack relying on the fact that Grevious doesn't have the same advantage. This won't work for Maul as he does and thus does the A>B so A>C argument fail.

Originally posted by In Rainbows
Right. Well, sorry then. I was just saying who would win according to me. If it'll make you happy, I'll read your little debate already.

No wait, I have to take a shit. Sounds like a lot more fun to me.

I apologize if it sounded like I was angry at you personally which I assure you I am not. It is only my complaint about the regulars that are on this forum, who would post an opinion similar to that in the middle of the debate. So once again I'm sorry if it seemed like my post was directed only at you or specifically signaling you out.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
The only reason why Kenobi was able to beat Grevious so easily nwas becuase grevious didn't have the same advantage as Kenobi. He was stated to be completely in tune with the force. So although Grevious can attack alot in a short period of time, Kenobi knows where each strike will be and can thus dodge or block it and then when to counter attack relying on the fact that Grevious doesn't have the same advantage. This won't work for Maul as he does and thus does the A>B so A>C argument fail.
Is it a blue moon tonight? Because this is one of the rare occasions when we have the same opinion.

A>B>C arguments always fail. Period.

But this is no A>B>C argument. Personally, I think Anoon Bondara was probably a powerful Jedi about as strong as Qui-Gon; good enough to put up a fight against Maul, but ultimately lose. Anyway, Grievous would likely be of similar strength to Maul in terms of lightsaber skills; however, Maul has Teras Kasi and the force, making him an ultimately superior foe to ROTS Sidious (but probably not to EU Grievous).

I really can't see how it isn't obivius that Obi-Wan will beat Maul... maybe not uberOMGWTFpwnOWNzorZ, but defeat him comfortably. Let's analyze the fight between Obi and Maul in TPM... Obi actually seemed to have the upper hand, but after breaking the saberlock, Maul pushed him away. Maul was probably the superior duelist, but Obi-Wan just standing up to him is impressive; now, Obi-Wan 13 years later, battle-hardened and completely mastering a new style that would be a perfect counter to Maul's uncontrolled, furious Juyo.

Also, Obi-Wan is likely superior to Maul in the force, too; while Maul did push him away, I don't remember him being capable of hurling someone HEAVIER than Kenobi much more far away than Maul did him, or match force strength with the chosen one, someone's whose potential is actually greater than SIDIOUS' or YODA'S, the two strongest force users in the galaxy at the time.

Oh, by the way... do you mean to imply that Maul > Yoda, by saying Anoon Bondara is roughly AOTC Yoda-level?

Hardly. They only fail if a special circumstance or not-always-applicable advantage factors in, otherwise they're perfectly valid.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
A>B>C arguments always fail. Period.

But this is no A>B>C argument. Personally, I think Anoon Bondara was probably a powerful Jedi about as strong as Qui-Gon; good enough to put up a fight against Maul, but ultimately lose. Anyway, Grievous would likely be of similar strength to Maul in terms of lightsaber skills; however, Maul has Teras Kasi and the force, making him an ultimately superior foe to ROTS Sidious (but probably not to EU Grievous).


The principle MOC is using is similar to the XZy principle. "because Obiwan beat Grievous with "ease" than he beats maul easier" that just doesn't cut it.


Obiwan will win but Maul wont go down without putting up a tough fight. I'd say Obiwan wins but it wont be comfortable (or layed back) Obiwan will need to go all out. (not that he would necessarily be in a position as close to death as he was in TPM)



Maul was superior to Obiwan who was using the darkside in Obiwan's own words


Obiwan said this on page 29 of the jedi vs sith guide:

When the last door lifted, I gave into my anger as I charged the dark warrior. I absolutely wanted to destroy him. He used my anger against me,actually fed off my fury,gaining strength as I exhausted my own. I lost my lightsaber and he had me......

I would like to further add that Obiwan's statement (about 5 years after tpm i believe) does not contradict the movie because Obiwan is merely describing what he felt inside of him.


Maul use the force in a physical way though I would like to add that he got right back from being blasted and while still being blasted from force lightning cut down the force witch. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Image:Mighella_VS_Maul.jpg




No I am not. I put Anoon around Yoda in lightsaber skill only though he wasn't a slouch in the force and for the record I'm not saying that Anoon or Mau > AOTC Yoda merely around his lightsaber skill whether it is a little lower. But Anoon's technique/swordsmanship could rival Yoda. It is a little complicated but this is a discussion for this thread.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f86/t482668.html

lol dude to say that maul would force rots to "go all out" would mean that tpm maul is on rots anakin's level, and thats total horsepuckey

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
The principle MOC is using is similar to the XZy principle. "because Obiwan beat Grievous with "ease" than he beats maul easier" that just doesn't cut it.

Grievous and Maul fight similarly- otherwise, I would not possibly compare Obi-Wan's defeat of Grievous to his theoretical defeat of Maul. For example- Obi-Wan could beat Anakin (or at least match up to him), who beat Dooku, who beat Obi-Wan. These sort of arguments fail; but only because Dooku fights differently than Anakin and the likes. So yes, Grievous can be used as a comparison to Maul here.


Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Obiwan will win but Maul wont go down without putting up a tough fight. I'd say Obiwan wins but it wont be comfortable (or layed back) Obiwan will need to go all out. (not that he would necessarily be in a position as close to death as he was in TPM)

'Winning comfortably' doesn't mean being laid back or something like that; it just means defeating the opponent without any legitimate chance of being defeated. At least, that's my interpretation of it. Obi-Wan never showed the tendency to toy with his opponents, so I doubt he'll do it now.



Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Maul was superior to Obiwan who was using the darkside in Obiwan's own words


Obiwan said this on page 29 of the jedi vs sith guide:

When the last door lifted, I gave into my anger as I charged the dark warrior. I absolutely wanted to destroy him. He used my anger against me,actually fed off my fury,gaining strength as I exhausted my own. I lost my lightsaber and he had me......

I would like to further add that Obiwan's statement (about 5 years after tpm i believe) does not contradict the movie because Obiwan is merely describing what he felt inside of him.

I never claimed Maul wasn't superior to Kenobi in saber combat by TPM; but they were damned close. It's true Kenobi was using the dark side, and I think that Maul would've beaten him in a fair fight, but still... let's use a similar comparison, shall we? Right then, Dooku absolutely schooled Anakin in AOTC, but lost his head to the ROTS incarnation of him. That was through a time difference of three years, during which Anakin further customized his fighting style to be more of a dueling form. Now, Obi-Wan changed his style, mastered it, and gained experience over the course of 13 YEARS, and he didn't exactly get his ass handed to him in the Dooku fashion.



Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Maul use the force in a physical way though I would like to add that he got right back from being blasted and while still being blasted from force lightning cut down the force witch. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Image:Mighella_VS_Maul.jpg

That's endurance, not force power. That's like saying Yoda was stronger than Sidious in the force because he recovered from his force lightning jolt rather quickly. There's a difference.




Originally posted by Elite Hunter
No I am not. I put Anoon around Yoda in lightsaber skill only though he wasn't a slouch in the force and for the record I'm not saying that Anoon or Mau > AOTC Yoda merely around his lightsaber skill whether it is a little lower. But Anoon's technique/swordsmanship could rival Yoda. It is a little complicated but this is a discussion for this thread.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f86/t482668.html

Understood. I'm pretty sure that is was exaggerration, but I'm not saying his skills weren't formidable; by clarifying that Bondara's lightsaber techniques were second to none, it creates a paradox, as it says that TPM Obi-Wan is almost as strong as Yoda (due to him being almost as strong as Maul) in terms of lightsaber skills. Which makes no sense whatsoever.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy


I never claimed Maul wasn't superior to Kenobi in saber combat by TPM; but they were damned close.

really? they were close? if that was so Obi-Wan would have been able to keep up with the fight, instead of getting left behind..

also how long did it take Maul to win the duel against Obi-Wan? like half a minute.. maybe a few seconds longer...

Obi-Wan had a huge rest from the battle, Maul had been fighting for a while, first against both of them, then against Qui-Gon twice, and then had to fight Obi-Wan.. Nd Obi-Wan saw his mentor die, so gave it his very best shot, gaining an advantage at one point, but despite all this he still lost the duel relatively quickly.


Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

and he didn't exactly get his ass handed to him in the Dooku fashion.


He kept hitting Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan really hard, and they only survived because the other one was there to keep fighting. Obi-Wan got hit by Maul So Hard that his lightsaber fell out of his hand... Twice!

And I think Obi-Wan lasted a fair bit longer against Dooku in AOTC than he did against Maul. unless your talking about the Force move Dooku did to Obi-Wan in ROTS.. cause yeah Maul culdnt do that to Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
really? they were close? if that was so Obi-Wan would have been able to keep up with the fight, instead of getting left behind..

also how long did it take Maul to win the duel against Obi-Wan? like half a minute.. maybe a few seconds longer...

Obi-Wan had a huge rest from the battle, Maul had been fighting for a while, first against both of them, then against Qui-Gon twice, and then had to fight Obi-Wan.. Nd Obi-Wan saw his mentor die, so gave it his very best shot, gaining an advantage at one point, but despite all this he still lost the duel relatively quickly.




He kept hitting Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan really hard, and they only survived because the other one was there to keep fighting. Obi-Wan got hit by Maul So Hard that his lightsaber fell out of his hand... Twice!

And I think Obi-Wan lasted a fair bit longer against Dooku in AOTC than he did against Maul. unless your talking about the Force move Dooku did to Obi-Wan in ROTS.. cause yeah Maul culdnt do that to Obi-Wan.

i have a question thats up for discussion if anybody wants to chime in but i direct it to you first Darth Power.

this is the question,

after tapping into the darkside, did TPM kenobi do anything that he wasnt already capable of?
did the dark side give him an actual boost in ability or just give him the agression to use the ability he already had?

Originally posted by Man of Christ
i have a question thats up for discussion if anybody wants to chime in but i direct it to you first Darth Power.

this is the question,

after tapping into the darkside, did TPM kenobi do anything that he wasnt already capable of?
did the dark side give him an actual boost in ability or just give him the agression to use the ability he already had? Giving into anger always gives the combatant a temporary boost - it's what's the Dark side is all about. And aside from lil' Obi-Wan, Anakin and Luke demonstrate it against Dooku and Vader, respectively.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
really? they were close? if that was so Obi-Wan would have been able to keep up with the fight, instead of getting left behind.
He got kicked in the face by Maul, whose one of the few people in the saga who are actual GOOD hand-to-hand combatants; he was kicked and knocked down. Maul was being overwhelmed by the two Jedi, so he knocked one away in order to make it easier on himself. The result: Qui-Gon pwned.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
also how long did it take Maul to win the duel against Obi-Wan? like half a minute.. maybe a few seconds longer...

Obi-Wan had a huge rest from the battle, Maul had been fighting for a while, first against both of them, then against Qui-Gon twice, and then had to fight Obi-Wan.. Nd Obi-Wan saw his mentor die, so gave it his very best shot, gaining an advantage at one point, but despite all this he still lost the duel relatively quickly.

That's true; however, if you would analyze the actual fight, you would see that Obi-Wan was on the offensive, and attacked Maul, cutting his saber in half, etc, etc, etc... in reality, he pushed Maul away, who subsequently force pushed him. FORCE PUSHED HIM. We're talking about saber skills here, not force abilities; Obi-Wan was overwhelming Maul, so he decided to take the easy path and push him away. In addition, Maul did not seem in any way tired, unlike Qui-Gon, who seemed to be rather tired... Maul's a stamina beast. His endurance is one of his better traits.




Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He kept hitting Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan really hard, and they only survived because the other one was there to keep fighting. Obi-Wan got hit by Maul So Hard that his lightsaber fell out of his hand... Twice!

And I think Obi-Wan lasted a fair bit longer against Dooku in AOTC than he did against Maul. unless your talking about the Force move Dooku did to Obi-Wan in ROTS.. cause yeah Maul culdnt do that to Obi-Wan.

MAUL WAS STRONGER THAN BOTH QUI-GON AND OBI-WAN. I did not deny that; Qui-Gon was exauhsted during the fight, while Obi-Wan was a Padawan who did not even fully master his form of choice. Obi-Wan lasted more against Dooku because he was 10 years more experienced than how he was against Maul; and once again, Maul force-pushed Obi-Wan rather than beat him with a saber.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy


That's true; however, if you would analyze the actual fight, you would see that Obi-Wan was on the offensive, and attacked Maul, cutting his saber in half, etc, etc, etc... in reality, he pushed Maul away, who subsequently force pushed him. FORCE PUSHED HIM. We're talking about saber skills here, not force abilities; Obi-Wan was overwhelming Maul, so he decided to take the easy path and push him away.
Actually

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Maul was superior to Obiwan who was using the darkside in Obiwan's own words


Obiwan said this on page 29 of the jedi vs sith guide:

When the last door lifted, I gave into my anger as I charged the dark warrior. I absolutely wanted to destroy him. He used my anger against me,actually fed off my fury,gaining strength as I exhausted my own. I lost my lightsaber and he had me......

I would like to further add that Obiwan's statement (about 5 years after tpm i believe) does not contradict the movie because Obiwan is merely describing what he felt inside of him which is something that movies can't show during a duel.

Originally posted by Man of Christ
i have a question thats up for discussion if anybody wants to chime in but i direct it to you first Darth Power.

this is the question,

after tapping into the darkside, did TPM kenobi do anything that he wasnt already capable of?
did the dark side give him an actual boost in ability or just give him the agression to use the ability he already had?

not sure why your directing the question to me considering i never mentioned Obi-Wan giving into his anger.

But ill answer neway. yes your rite.. obi-wan didnt do anything he wasnt capable of. after seeing his mentor die, he went all out and gave maul everything he had.. (and you could see Maul was expecting that and enjoying every second of it) but it wasnt enough. Maul still won the duel

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy


That's true; however, if you would analyze the actual fight, you would see that Obi-Wan was on the offensive, and attacked Maul, cutting his saber in half, etc, etc, etc... in reality, he pushed Maul away, who subsequently force pushed him. FORCE PUSHED HIM. We're talking about saber skills here, not force abilities; Obi-Wan was overwhelming Maul, so he decided to take the easy path and push him away. In addition, Maul did not seem in any way tired, unlike Qui-Gon, who seemed to be rather tired... Maul's a stamina beast. His endurance is one of his better traits.

i remember the fight as going backwards and forwards. not just Obi-Wan forcing Maul back. nd by the way if u watch it carefully just before Maul Force pushes Obi-Wan he forces his saber back towards Obi-Wan first leaving an opening for Maul to Force Push him.

neway force push is not a particularly adavanced force move. its a standard attack. like a kick or a punch midfight. in fact in an interview with Wizard Ray Park said the force thing was his idea, a way for him not to keep repeating the same moves. also Maul got that opening because you could see Obi-Wan tiring.

nd yeah Mauls got good stamina. but when Obi-Wans been out of the fight for a while, and Maul was fighting the whole time, it obviously gives Obi-Wan the advantage. and yet Obi-Wan still tired first. you can that towards the end of the fight, that Obi-Wans given it everything nd is tiring now.



Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

MAUL WAS STRONGER THAN BOTH QUI-GON AND OBI-WAN. I did not deny that; Qui-Gon was exauhsted during the fight, while Obi-Wan was a Padawan who did not even fully master his form of choice. Obi-Wan lasted more against Dooku because he was 10 years more experienced than how he was against Maul; and once again, Maul force-pushed Obi-Wan rather than beat him with a saber.

I know the Dooku fight was 10 years later. i said that becuase you said Maul didnt pawn ObiWan the way Dooku did. but I think he actually did. Again Force push is a standard attack during a Saber fight. like a kick.. you can only kick your opponent during a saber fight if he lets his guard down, and your quick enough to take advantage.

sorry kids, at this point kenobi owns him.

Wow Knightfall way to read the thread, and not just the actual debate but my other post last page.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
i remember the fight as going backwards and forwards. not just Obi-Wan forcing Maul back. nd by the way if u watch it carefully just before Maul Force pushes Obi-Wan he forces his saber back towards Obi-Wan first leaving an opening for Maul to Force Push him.

neway force push is not a particularly adavanced force move. its a standard attack. like a kick or a punch midfight. in fact in an interview with Wizard Ray Park said the force thing was his idea, a way for him not to keep repeating the same moves. also Maul got that opening because you could see Obi-Wan tiring.

nd yeah Mauls got good stamina. but when Obi-Wans been out of the fight for a while, and Maul was fighting the whole time, it obviously gives Obi-Wan the advantage. and yet Obi-Wan still tired first. you can that towards the end of the fight, that Obi-Wans given it everything nd is tiring now.

That's all true. As I've stated; Maul was STRONGER than Obi-Wan. Why do people keep acting as if I've said Obi-Wan was the stronger one? lol. Obi-Wan seemed to have the slight edge in their fight, though; as he cut Maul's lightsaber in half and seemed to be pushing him back, before Maul knocked away his saber and force-pushed him. Please. I'm not the one to say "OMG LOL HE USED FORCE PUSHED he was overpowered lolz Obi-Wan ownz he wtfpwned Maul, Maul's a cheater LAWL". Maul legitimately overpowered Kenobi; it's simply the fact that if Maul could have slain Kenobi then with his lightsaber, wouldn't it be simpler? Wouldn't it have been simpler for Dooku to later on saber him if he was weaker than him in sabers (talking about ROTS)? This is just one of the numerous examples in which the Sith take advantage of the easy way. That seems to separate them from the "Short way and the right way" Jedis. I'll use several examples:

Dooku vs. Yoda: Dooku uses the force to distract Yoda while he gets away. Really? Was it because Dooku could pwn Yoda but he chose not to? Err... no. He was being overpowered, so he decided to use the easy and safer way to pull a get away.

Dooku vs. Anakin/Obi-Wan: The novelization clarified that Dooku was being pwned in the fight, so he decided to use the force- in which his mastery is far superior to Obi-Wan's due to the vast amount of experience he possesses- in order to take him out quickly rather than saber him, which would be risky.

Sidious vs. Mace/Yoda: Similarly, during the fight against Mace, Mace seemed to be overpowered- note the expressions he was making during the duel, extreme strain and showing obivious difficulty in parrying Sidious' strikes, so he decided to use the tactical advantage and a well-placed kick to disarm the overpowering Sith Lord. Against Yoda, Sidious was dead equal; so, instead of waiting to end a battle which would've gone either way, he decided to switch tactics and use the force in order to make it easier on him...

It's the difference between Sith and Jedi. Sith take easy and more practical paths during combat. Now, why did I bother with this rant? There wasn't a single time when an opponent who was overpowering the other chose to use the force (or tactical advantages) rather than simply saber him to death; with the exception of Sidious vs. Yoda and possibly Sidious vs. Mace, the user of the 'dirty tricks' stuff was being overpowered; in the latter two, it was simply because it would be easier to overcome the other via force powers. Unless of course Sid threw the fight against Mace... but that's irrelevant here...

Anyway. with all this evidence, I think it's safe to say Maul wasn't overpowering Obi-Wan. As for Obi's quote... it means Maul eluded Obi-Wan and causes him to be more open and easier to attack. That's what happened in the film, too... nothing in it contradicts my arguments.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I know the Dooku fight was 10 years later. i said that becuase you said Maul didnt pawn ObiWan the way Dooku did. but I think he actually did. Again Force push is a standard attack during a Saber fight. like a kick.. you can only kick your opponent during a saber fight if he lets his guard down, and your quick enough to take advantage.

During Dooku vs. Obi-Wan, it was highly possibly that Dooku was simply toying with Obi-Wan; note his "Master Kenobi, you disappoint me!" stuff and obiviously amused face. You don't see any of that when he's up against them in ROTS or when he's up against Yoda later on; it was, to me at least, obivious that he was simply more than a much for Obi-Wan but chose to toy with Obi-Wan. Maybe some sort of emotional attachment to his apprentice's apprentice? The one who killed his predecessor? Maybe.

is the duel on Tatooine between ROTS Kenobi and the cybernetic Maul considered canon at all?

Nope

ic, i just read the wikipedia entry for it, sounded pretty cool, esp. the part where all Obi-Wan cared about was "does Palpatine know" before owning Maul, but there should be a story where Obi-Wan actually has something to do.
There should be some books written about what Obi-Wan and Yoda do all those years, and it shouldn't be, just sit around and meditate. Mebbe help the rebel alliance, mebbe train some other Jedi's. Maybe meet some of the other Jedi, i don't know, there should be something though.

Well Obwian did wtfpwn Hett and Obiwan is featured in of the last of the jedi series though he isn't the main character. I also think I remember hearing that Boba Fett had an encounter with Yoda.

One of the mob bosses from the Thrawn Duology had a ran in with Yoda too I believe. Cardas, was it?

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Dooku vs. Anakin/Obi-Wan: The novelization clarified that Dooku was being pwned in the fight,The movie disagrees. The novel depicted a fight that was completely different in every manner save for the conclusion, and greatly favored the duo, while the movie had them getting tossed around like idiots until the end. No, Dooku wasn't having very much trouble at all.

here is my logic.

For a total of 3 seconds, maul stood in a stupor as kenobi flipped over him, grabbed his dead master's lightsaber, turned around, and cut him in half. IDIOT

Then kenobi grew up and became the greatest master of soresu in history. Mace called him the greatest of the jedi. After this, a sad, obligated obi wan soundly spanked an angry, darkside embued "IN TEH ZONE!!11111" anakin skywalker, the abilities of whom im not going to elaborate upon. He also took out an extremely skilled Lightsaber whirlwind, capable to fend against dooku, in about 8 seconds of combat.

Seriously, i can see you giving maul props for causing a formidible jedi to commit suicide to try and kill him, but this character conflicts with the skill and reflexes shown in the movies by maul. In such a conflict, movies are #1 priority, correct?

Well, no one's arguing that Maul would win, right now it's more just about Maul's skill, thats in question.

And Hunters point is that it'd be a double standard to say Maul's an idiot for that mistake he made in TPM, considering many people made dumb mistakes throughout the movies.

well his point is correct.

Turning to the darkside to save the one you love and killing her in the process=dumb mistake.

however this is not only a mistake, its also a lack of relfexes and skill. i mean, maul had his saber open. all he would have had to do is move it a bit and he would have lived. unfortunately, nobody sees it this way. They see it as poor innocent maul getting surprised that a padawan could jump up and hit him!!!

Agreed.

People also need to understand that getting surprised is, in fact, another reason why his dueling ability is not as good as it can be. Letting your guard down, and then getting killed because of it, reflects poorly on your judgment and perception.

As far as just debates go, where ones personality does not come into play, he's a vicious beast with extreme skill. In reality, he's an arrogant fool who can be manipulated into a false sense of security, and destroyed. Another thing that fight showed is that Maul doesn't adapt well. Once Obi-Wan got pissed off and started fighting with his full potential Maul was surprised, but he never adapted. If he was so much better then Obi-Wan he should have adapted to his fighting style in seconds even if he was surprised initially, and won the lightsaber duel. He did not. They exchanged blows, and then separated. Obi-Wan was going toe-to-toe with him for around seven seconds (long time in a duel). By this point in the duel:

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f122/blaxican_templar/Untitled.jpg

Maul should have realized that Obi-Wan was fighting much harder and much better then he was before, and that he would have to up his own game in order to contend. That's what a vastly superior fighter would have done. Maul did not. Instead, this happened:

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f122/blaxican_templar/maulvsobi2.jpg

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f122/blaxican_templar/MaulvObi3.jpg

He was put on his ass, and then forced to retreat.

From there they fight and Obi-Wan is holding his own quite fine, then Maul gets the force push in. At that point it's arguable whither or not Obi-Wan would have won had there not been a pit there. I'm under the impression he would have.

You're left with two conclusions, really.

A) Obi-Wan even as a apprentice really was just that good.

or

B) Maul has trouble adapting to new situations. He failed to adapt to Obi-Wan's increase in skill and he failed to adapt to Obi-Wan leaping over him and chopping him in half.

You could argue that both times he just got cocky and it killed him, but that just goes to show that he's even more of a dumbass, because if this persn has already put you on your ass and almost killed you due to your arrogance before, why drop your guard again? Because this time he's in a pit? He has "no chance"? It really isn't all that different then when you had slain his master and you thought he was done for. Obviously the kid has skill, obviously he's resourceful. Why let your guard down again?

Because your a fool. And really, this is why it's true that most of the lightsiders > darksiders in Star Wars in skill, because the majority of the darksiders are cocky bastards. If they weren't cocky, they'd be vastly more skillled fighters. Instead they're overconfident clowns.

Again, this is just my own opinion on the matter. There is tons of ridiculous canon and quotes that I'm sure will be brought up to negate everything I just said. But, whatever.

well the pics are cannon, and they reflect on exactly what you say. Maul didn't adapt, and kept letting his guard down, like 3 times. he refused or was unable to up his game. So, when he decided to be stupid, and put down his lightsaber again, and then leave it down when kenobi started jumping, is just proof that maul has horns for brains. WHy didn't he just shoot his fingers or force them so that he had to let go of the little thing that kenobi was holding onto? becauase he is an idiot. he pranced around and then didn't adapt when obi wan jumped. Maul had been a skilled beast, but a beast nonetheless-- count dooku
I can see sideous looking at maul and thinking "omg, i wish this guy knew some three syllable words. I am the master manipulator, and i gotta put up with this?" then maul burps, and mutters in single syllables about how the Jedi will pay while scratching his crack.....

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
And Hunters point is that it'd be a double standard to say Maul's an idiot for that mistake he made in TPM, considering many people made dumb mistakes throughout the movies.

I don't think I ever said anything about Maul being smart or not, but if you want to talk about it then Maul made 2 serious mistakes and both cost him his life. It is worth noting that in both mistake were where he was over confident and died cause of it. Though in every other material Maul was never over confident and pretty much was the silent assassin in every battle. All that being sad I don't seem Maul getting overconfident here because he will never be in a serious position to even taunt or boast his "superiority" to ROTS Obiwan and will never have him on the brink of death.

Originally posted by Faunus
The movie disagrees. The novel depicted a fight that was completely different in every manner save for the conclusion, and greatly favored the duo, while the movie had them getting tossed around like idiots until the end. No, Dooku wasn't having very much trouble at all.

Yeah? The only thing I personally remember is Dooku getting thrown backwards, placing him on the retreat for the entire of the duo fight; now then... fighting styles come into question...

One might argue; "Obi-Wan was going backwards in his fight against Anakin, but he won." If that's an indication of losing, than how could Obi-Wan have won!

No. Dooku's a user of Form II: Makashi, which largely depends upon a mixture of offense and defense; it's a very versatile style, very effective in saber-on-saber combat... but, seeing as Dooku was forced into defending almost entirely against the duo, it would be an indication- supported by the novel, that he was overmatched by the two of them.

Dooku managed to land a force attack on Kenobi in order to better defend himself; it worked. Great for him, lol... but the matter is he used it to avoid being overpowered.

Previousi posts were correct; Maul vs. Obi-Wan was pretty even, and Maul did nothing to adjust his style, effectively establishing him as a fight-idiot. Obi-Wan's style is, shall we say, anti-idiots... see, Kenobi's greatest victories (arguably) were against Maul and Anakin. They were both idiots. Kenobi exploited a mistake they made in order to strike them down. Of course, people could say Grievous isn't an idiot (he really isn't), but he was beaten via Obi-Wan using the force, superior swordsmanship, and Grievous being previously injured.

That was a very intelligent comment regarding the Sith's overconfident usually leading to their falls; the Sith are, ultimately (with the exception of RotJ Vader) defeated via their overconfidence, not due to their lack of skill... they would pwn the Jedi if they were cool fighters like Obi-Wan . But hey, everyone's gotta have a weakness...

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
I don't think I ever said anything about Maul being smart or not, but if you want to talk about it then Maul made 2 serious mistakes and both cost him his life. It is worth noting that in both mistake were where he was over confident and died cause of it. Though in every other material Maul was never over confident and pretty much was the silent assassin in every battle. All that being sad I don't seem Maul getting overconfident here because he will never be in a serious position to even taunt or boast his "superiority" to ROTS Obiwan and will never have him on the brink of death.

Bah. Fair enough. >.>

again your all missing that Maul had been fighting for ages.. whilst Obi-Wan had been out of the fight for ages.. and Obi-Wan saw his master die, and so went completely full out on Maul.. and Maul took it, and survived it.. and then toards the end of the duel you can CLEARLY see that Obi-Wan has given it everything, but is now tiring.. there was no sign of Maul tiring, and he had complete control when he Force pushed Obi-Wan.. he even did it with a smile if I remember correctly.

and this talk of Maul not adapting is nonesense. he did adapt, thats why he won the duel. and the whole duel only lasted like half a minute.. a very intense half a minute yes.. but still a relatively short time.

If the pit wasnt there Maul had still won, because Obi-Wan took a hard hit and his lightsaber fell out of his hand.

and look, about Obi-Wans jump... the only reason Maul just stood there staring at him was because as far as Maul knew Obi-Wan didnt have a weapon. so Maul was just thinking "wtf is he doing???"

Lets not forget Maul had the complete Vertical High Ground.. so if he was expecting any kind of serious attack, theres absolutely NO WAY Obi-Wan could have taken him. he had a much better strategic position over Obi-Wan than ObiWan had over Anakin in ROTS.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Maul legitimately overpowered Kenobi;



Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

Anyway. with all this evidence, I think it's safe to say Maul wasn't overpowering Obi-Wan.



So just to clarify?? do you think Maul overpowered Kenobi or not??

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So just to clarify?? do you think Maul overpowered Kenobi or not??

'Overpowered' and 'overpowering' are completely different things. 'Overpowered' means that someone did successfully overpower the other in a single instant, while 'overpowering' is more along the likes of having the upper hand and overpowering the opponent over time.

The fact that I stated that Maul both legitimately overpowered Obi-Wan and that he wasn't overpowering Obi-Wan aren't contradictory. See, I'll give you an example; during Dooku vs. Yoda, Yoda was overpowering Dooku, but since he failed to overpower him, he didn't win. So yeah; Maul beat Obi-Wan in the 'Saber match', but they were pretty much even for the duration of the fight.

Oh, and by the way... Maul's Juyo, albeit energetic, is no where near as tiring as Obi-Wan's and Qui-Gon's Ataru styles. Besides, Obi-Wan was the one getting kicked around, falling backwards and leaping up hundreds of feet in the air... I don't think stamina should be a factor in this situation; Maul was clearly not tired one bit, although Obi-Wan- due in part to his sudden and excessive use of the dark side and due to his energetic style- was somewhat tired near the end. Maul, during the fight, did not show ANY sign of being tired.

The taunting thing... Obi-Wan won, through being faster than his overconfident open. In the movie, Obi-Wan landed in front of Maul and sliced him, actually giving Maul sufficient time to light up his saber and defend. But he didn't. Why? Maybe he was shocked, surprised...

Anyway. Your whole arguments seem to be deciding the Maul was stronger than Obi-Wan. But really, I don't think anyone's denying it at this point. We're simply trying to prove that Obi-Wan is close to Maul enough that in a straight match, Maul would win, but won't WTFpwn Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
What he did, was unleash his potential.

No, he was using the darkside and had he not used the darkside he would have never broke Maul's saber,etc. There is a difference from using the darkside and unleashing your full potential or even part of it. Obiwan was using his anger against Maul not his "hidden potential" thta would eventually make him an uber duelist.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Anyway. Your whole arguments seem to be deciding the Maul was stronger than Obi-Wan. But really, I don't think anyone's denying it at this point. We're simply trying to prove that Obi-Wan is close to Maul enough that in a straight match, Maul would win, but won't WTFpwn Obi-Wan.

Funny how Obiwan was only a challenge for Maul when he was using the darkside which is something under normal circumstance a jedi never uses. That's like saying that ROTS Luke wouldn't get pwned if Vader was trying all out from the start and had he not used the darkside to beat him in the saber duel. Maul's accomplishments speak for themselves (please don't ask me to post them all again) there is not enough evidence to even say that Obiwan prior to using the darkside could compete with someone who defeated Qui-gon, Bondara and even surprised the hell out of one Darth Sidious and ntm he was called "one of the deadliest sith apprentices in history" in which the title dates back to Simus training Naga Sadow. TPM Obiwan gets loses pretty badly.

but maul was using the darkside and rage and crap like that too. And kenobi backs him up and cuts his saber up! Maybe the eu maul and the movie maul are an inconscistency?

since this is TPM maul, and not comic book maul, i am taking the side of the maul who got spanked by a padawan.

Maybe it is debateable that he got overpowered by obi wan, but do you think that 20 years later, after becoming the master of the greatest lightsaber form (according to windu), and taking out anakin, that this tips the scales totally in Kenobi's favor. THink about it for a second. If Kenobi didn't force maul back, then they were pretty evenly matched. 20 years of experience and training later, Kenobi would CLEARLY take this.

Those who take maul's part are apparently only defending and explaining away how he got owned by a padawan, not explaining or clarifying exactly how he would own the same padawan 20 years later.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
but maul was using the darkside and rage and crap like that too.

Um, yea he is a sith after all that is what sith use the darkside which in turn means that use emotions. hence Palpatine saying "Give into your anger" and Dooku saying something along the lines your have hate,you have fear, etc. Please tell me you know the basics of the darkside and the sith.


And I believe that it was said that Obiwan used a technique he learned from Qui-gon to calm himself down while hanging.


Elaborate, there is no inconsistency Maul overcame the temporary DS obiwan and then became overconfident and it lead to his death, the same thing would happen the only other time he got coky vs vader in one eu comic.


You really have no clue, unless stated otherwise(such as stating only the movie versions) than TPM Maul means the incarnation of Maul is up to tpm meaning that his feats from the books,which are more impressive than comics, and comics are valid points .



How many times is this going to be brought up read the last couples pages, I must have posted the quote from Obiwan about Maul gaining strength and him losing his at least four times now.



Originally posted by Elite Hunter
No shit sherlock, I debating that he doesn't go down without giving Kenobi difficulty.


.
See the above and actually read the enitire thread before jumping into I already gave my reasons for why I beleive he doesn't get pwned as MOC originalyl said

sure, kid, I believe you. he just got cocky, and when maul gets cocky he kinda freezes and stands absolutely still for about 3 seconds while a padawan jumps over him and slices him in half. Either is so cocky he thinks obi wan will jump too high and hit his head on the roof, and then fall down behind him, or hes stupid, and this would just be exploited over and over and over.

The thing with the inconscistency im talking about is that he killed anoon bondara, and then got kicked down a shaft by a padawan!!

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
sure, kid, I believe you. he just got cocky, and when maul get's cocky he kinda freezes and stands absolutely still for about 3 seconds while a padawan jumps over him and slices him in half.

WTf are you going about now? He got cocky and was surprised and died,same thing happened vs Vader when he was winning. He was surprised and it cost him. I'm not making excuse for him. But if you read more than a single comic(and even there maul isn't cocky) about him than you would that he got cocky twice in his entire career and he died on both occasions. Being cocky/overconfidence isn't trait that lies only with Maul.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
The thing with the inconscistency im talking about is that he killed anoon bondara, and then got kicked down a shaft by a padawan!!
Its not inconsistent, he wasn't overconfident vs Anoon and thus one, he was overconfident with an unarmed padawan hanging above shaft and he got cut like an onion.

he didn't get cocky vs vader. he was totally unprepared for vader to slice through his own circuits when he was about to let fall the death stroke.

what i dont understand is why did he freeze? why didnt he like hold up his lightsaber when obi wan flipped over him and just cleave him in two? If hes so awesome, why?

I never said it was only with maul, i just said that it looks like, when he gets cocky, he gets sluggish and stupid.

I did read star wars visionaries.

ok thats very fine and well to do, but it doesnt do anything for my question. WHY DID HE FREEZE for 4 seconds?

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
he didn't get cocky vs vader. he was totally unprepared for vader to slice through his own circuits when he was about to let fall the death stroke.

Um if I recall correctly vader was on his kneeds or barely standing his suit was already damaged and Maul says what couid you possibly hate enough to destroy me? instead of killing Vader in that instant he gives Vader a small enough period for Vader to think and Vader replies"myself and stabs through himself to get Maul as he was about to deliver the final blow. Plus I believe Maul was talking smack before hand which is something he didn't do in Shadow Hunter, the short story or any other source, hell even doesn't talk in TPM duel.

To answer your second second he didn't know what Obiwan was doing. I don't recall if Maul's mindset at that moment was ever described but like I said Obiwan closed his eyes and was calming himself down and Maul could have been feeling something in the force that he couldn't see other than obiwan calming himself, he was also reaching out for Qui-Gon's lightsaber so that came into. We can only speculate why Maul stood still my only guess is what I just said above,combined with shock and surprise.

Yes, but it appears to be only speculation. My problem isn't why did he die to a padawan, but why did he freeze if hes so great like you and the eu say. Maybe the fight was just made wrong.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Obiwan was using his anger against Maul not his "hidden potential" thta would eventually make him an uber duelist.

...

Can you prove that? >.>

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
...

Can you prove that? >.>

That he was using his anger. Well let's see he watches his master die and was powerless to do this and screams no.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter


Obiwan said this on page 29 of the jedi vs sith guide:

When the last door lifted, I gave into my anger as I charged the dark warrior. I absolutely wanted to destroy him. He used my anger against me,actually fed off my fury,gaining strength as I exhausted my own. I lost my lightsaber and he had me......

I think Blaxican was kidding...?

Yea so?

wtf didn't you post that quote before?

i never would have entered this debate lmao.

It's okay Darthsith. My humor can be hard to detect.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
wtf didn't you post that quote before?

Yup but it serves the same purpose.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
sure, kid, I believe you. he just got cocky, and when maul gets cocky he kinda freezes and stands absolutely still for about 3 seconds while a padawan jumps over him and slices him in half. Either is so cocky he thinks obi wan will jump too high and hit his head on the roof, and then fall down behind him, or hes stupid, and this would just be exploited over and over and over.

The thing with the inconscistency im talking about is that he killed anoon bondara, and then got kicked down a shaft by a padawan!!

Obi-Wan was just lucky that Qui-Gons lightsaber was there... Qui-gons lightsaber is not always gna convieniently be there for him is it?? what could Obi-Wan have possibly done if Qui-Gon wasnt there?? urm nothing... he was absolutely pawned... completely and utterly.. oh but Obi-Wan split Mauls lightsaber in 2 and kicked him to the ground!!! who cares?? that was the only hit Obi-Wan ever got on Maul the whole fight, and then Maul just got right back up and pawned him!

and yes Obi-Wan was getting tired... if you cant see that then your just in denial... it was obvious, he gave it everything his anger could give him.

ROTS Obi-Wan beats Maul (one of the greatest Sith Apprentices of all time) with a lot of difficulty. Whilst Maul absolutely pawns TPM Obi-Wan. This is just fact. its obvious to anyone whose seen TPM... im not being biased here at all. Obi-Wan was not even a match for Qui-Gon in TPM.. who got pawned by Maul.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Obi-Wan was not even a match for Qui-Gon in TPM

Prove it.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Obi-Wan was just lucky that Qui-Gons lightsaber was there... Qui-gons lightsaber is not always gna convieniently be there for him is it?? what could Obi-Wan have possibly done if Qui-Gon wasnt there?? urm nothing... he was absolutely pawned... completely and utterly.. oh but Obi-Wan split Mauls lightsaber in 2 and kicked him to the ground!!! who cares?? that was the only hit Obi-Wan ever got on Maul the whole fight, and then Maul just got right back up and pawned him!

Don't give in to your anger... anger leads to hate, hate... leads to suffering.

Jk.

Anyways, back to reality now; I'm not sure Obi-Wan would be "completely pawned" (pawned, by the way, is something like auctioned... it's correctly spelled 'pwned', actually. xD). Right then, if you would notice, the ONLY blows Maul got on Obi-Wan was kicking, and the force push. He didn't get any close to him with his saber- in fact, even when Maul was using a double saber, he couldn't penetrate Obi-Wan's defense, which seemed to effortlessly parry his attacks. Oh, yeah, why do you keep insisting on saying "Maul pwned him!"? All evidence actually see it as Maul barely managing to get Kenobi off of him with that force push. Please...

If the duel was one even ground, it'd be CLOSER. See, Maul disarmed Obi-Wan twice during the course of the duel; both times, he sent Obi-Wan falling down a ledge. Now, imagine a similar duel; but this time, Maul's kicks only send Obi-Wan knocked backwards rather than disarm him. Obi-Wan destroyed Maul's weapon; he got close to sabering him, something that Maul did not achieve during the fight. He didn't even come close to killing him with some blow.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
and yes Obi-Wan was getting tired... if you cant see that then your just in denial... it was obvious, he gave it everything his anger could give him.

I think you're the one in denial. Can't you see the fact that everyone here AGREES that he was getting somewhat tired near the end? Not really tired, but somewhat tired... yet you insist on believing everyone here thinks "lol Obi-Wan pwned him" in a fair fight. Oh, by the way...anger isn't always useful. Anakin used anger, too, and see where it got him, no? I'm talking about him fighting Obi.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
ROTS Obi-Wan beats Maul (one of the greatest Sith Apprentices of all time) with a lot of difficulty. Whilst Maul absolutely pawns TPM Obi-Wan. This is just fact. its obvious to anyone whose seen TPM... im not being biased here at all.

Err... lol. I saw TPM, everyone here saw TPM... and you still seem to be on a minority. Nobody accused you of being biased; you're entitled to your own opinion, fair and square. You just repeat arguments on and on while ignoring what we say... 'a lot of difficulty"? Don't exaggerrate, please. 'One of the strongest sith apprentices in history?' Vague. But, despite many people saying that the Old Sith are the strongest, I'm of the opinion that the modern sith are far superior to the old sith. Aka Marka Ragnos, Revan, etc... and so are the Jedi. I don't see Maul comparing with Mustafar Vader. As the movies progressed, Sidious' sith apprentices got more annd more powerful- first Maul, then Dooku, then Sidious and pre-suit Vader... if pre-suit Vader was anything like Maul, why would Sidious have any interest replacing Maul? It was said Sidious foresaw Maul's demise. It could only because he opted for a stronger apprentice, which he got, in the form of Anakin. And as Obi-Wan beat Anakin... well, I think he'll beat Maul too. Without a lot of difficulty, but certainly not a walk in the park.

hate to jump in like this: but i do think maul controlled his duel with the two Jedi on naboo. Maul beat qui gonn, and until you can prove that TPM obi-wan was a match for qui gonn, you can't say he was. sorry, but burden of proof is with you. Qui gonn was a master, capable of sitting on the council, Obi-wan was an apprentice. If you can't prove they were on the same level, i'm not accepting it.

Maul disarmed Obi-wan. You said it would have been closer, had he not fallen over a ledge, and that is incorrect, had he not fallen down a ledge, you would have had obi-wan lying on his back getting skewered by maul. Falling down the second ledge saved his life.


Synopsis:

Maul versus TPM kenobi rematch= Maul wins easily.
Maul versus ROTS kenobi= Kenobi wins even easier than maul won the one above.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Prove it.

someones already given the proof for that. TPM Novel describes Obi-Wan as "Not yet Qui-Gons equal.." not that it needs to be proved.. if Obi-Wan was equal to Qui-Gon then he wuldnt have got left behind in the fight.


Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

Don't give in to your anger... anger leads to hate, hate... leads to suffering.

Jk.

am trying to keep on the light side here.. lol

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

Anyways, back to reality now; I'm not sure Obi-Wan would be "completely pawned" (pawned, by the way, is something like auctioned... it's correctly spelled 'pwned', actually. xD). Right then, if you would notice, the ONLY blows Maul got on Obi-Wan was kicking, and the force push. He didn't get any close to him with his saber- in fact, even when Maul was using a double saber, he couldn't penetrate Obi-Wan's defense, which seemed to effortlessly parry his attacks. Oh, yeah, why do you keep insisting on saying "Maul pwned him!"? All evidence actually see it as Maul barely managing to get Kenobi off of him with that force push. Please....

kick and force push's shows whose dominating the fight.. and is the first step to slicing them with your blade.. as we see with Maul vs. Qui-Gon.. he first hits him with the handle in the head and then takes the opening to kill him. Obi-Wan only got in that one hit the whole fight... and that was Obi-Wan much more angry than Maul(at that point) and Maul still got up and carried on fighting.. Maul got in plenty of hits which would have finished Obi-Wan off if not for Qui-Gon.

and yes in that final fight Obi-Wan gave it everything and put up a good fight. but it was still a relatively short fight in comparison to most lightsaber battles. and by the way that Force Push... it was more like a Force Flick! Lol! Maul owned at that point.. I dnt see any evidenc pointing to the contrary.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

If the duel was one even ground, it'd be CLOSER. See, Maul disarmed Obi-Wan twice during the course of the duel; both times, he sent Obi-Wan falling down a ledge. Now, imagine a similar duel; but this time, Maul's kicks only send Obi-Wan knocked backwards rather than disarm him. Obi-Wan destroyed Maul's weapon; he got close to sabering him, something that Maul did not achieve during the fight. He didn't even come close to killing him with some blow.....

actually the second time Maul disarmed Obi-Wan his lightsaber fell out of his hand before he fell down the shaft.. and he culdnt stop himself rolling down.. so on even ground Obi-Wan still would have been on the floor with some distance between him and his lightsaber. Whilst Maul was standing on top of him Lightsaber ignited. So ill let you figure out what would have happened next.





Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

'a lot of difficulty"? Don't exaggerrate, please. 'One of the strongest sith apprentices in history?' Vague.

well if you prove to me Obi-Wan can win without a lot of difficulty, then i might agree with you. but you have to prove it first. becuase as far as I can see youve got "the Master of Soresu" vs. a Master of Juyo, therfore also a high level master of several other forms, someone whose been trained by Sidious from day 1 to be a jedi killer, mixed various martial arts into his combat technique and very apt in using a single blade or double bladed weapon. Not saying your wrong about ROTS obi-Wan beating him without too much effort. just saying provide arguments/proof/eveidence to back this up, and then I might start believing it.

and about Maul being one of the best Sith Apprentices in history, is usually what Maul bios say about him.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

I don't see Maul comparing with Mustafar Vader. As the movies progressed, Sidious' sith apprentices got more annd more powerful- first Maul, then Dooku, then Sidious and pre-suit Vader...

I dnt see Maul being a match for pre-suit Vader either. but remember Dooku pwned Obi-Wan who in turn got beaten by pre-suit Anakin. so the A>B>C argument doesnt work here.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
someones already given the proof for that. TPM Novel describes Obi-Wan as "Not yet Qui-Gons equal.." not that it needs to be proved.. if Obi-Wan was equal to Qui-Gon then he wuldnt have got left behind in the fight.

Understood. I didn't read the novel ^^.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
kick and force push's shows whose dominating the fight.. and is the first step to slicing them with your blade.. as we see with Maul vs. Qui-Gon.. he first hits him with the handle in the head and then takes the opening to kill him. Obi-Wan only got in that one hit the whole fight... and that was Obi-Wan much more angry than Maul(at that point) and Maul still got up and carried on fighting.. Maul got in plenty of hits which would have finished Obi-Wan off if not for Qui-Gon.

Not necessarily. Even more than Vader, Maul is an angry person; he is a bloodthirsty beast, as described by Dooku, and note the eagerness in his voice when he says "At last, we shall have revenge...". Maul was extremely intent on killing his opponent, which is the Sith way. Measuring their levels of anger won't do.

Ah- what's easier to land, a kick, or a lightsaber blow? A kick was only shown to have a meaningful effect on a fight during Sidious vs. Mace. Please. Kicks do not indicate superiority.

Anakin kicked Obi-Wan several times in the fight, and who won?

Dooku effortlessly kicked Anakin when he force-grabbed Obi-Wan, but who won the fight?

You see my point, I hope; kicks do not necessarily display superiory to an opponent, as do force pushes. Also, remember; Obi-Wan's kick, unlike Maul's later kick (when he kicked him after the single lightsaber barrage) knocked Maul on the FLOOR. Obi-Wan was simply knocked backwards. It's true Obi-Wan's anger played a valid factor; but anger merely gives you a more intense desire to win. It's harnessed anger- like Sidious' and Dooku's- which unlocks more abilities, like Force Lightning, while simple rage will only get you to WANT to kill your opponent more.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
and yes in that final fight Obi-Wan gave it everything and put up a good fight. but it was still a relatively short fight in comparison to most lightsaber battles. and by the way that Force Push... it was more like a Force Flick! Lol! Maul owned at that point.. I dnt see any evidenc pointing to the contrary.

Qui-Gon vs. Maul was shorter. Now, you know what? I'll pull off my speciality and show you a step-by step analysis of the fight to root my opinion better.

Step One- First Engagement: During this part, Obi-Wan leapt out of the weird pinky shield and attacked Maul wirh a few strikes, who quickly retaliated with his own, both pushing the other somewhat; they seem to be dead equal during this part, but Obi-Wan's rage just grows.

Step Two- Kenobi's Upper Hand: Maul strikes Obi-Wan a few times, who simply blocks easily and begins pushing forward, striking Maul brutally and viciously, driving him back and eventually cutting his weapon in half through and opening in his defense.

Step Three- Obi-Wan's Incapacitation: Obi-Wan leaps at Maul, who blocks and retreats. Obi-Wan runs up to him, and Maul launches a barrage, ending with a kick to Kenobi's face- Obi merely leaps and continues the assault, once again causing Maul to retreat, afterwards pulling off several strikes at Maul, engaging in a saberlock. Maul breaks it and pushed Obi away.

Now, as you see from this analysis, Maul has actually at no point shown himself to be SUPERIOR to Obi-Wan; rather, Obi-Wan had the advantage for most of the duel, although Maul did overpower him with the 'force flick'. Please. It was a force push like any other. Is that enough evidence pointing to the contrary now?



Originally posted by DARTH POWER
actually the second time Maul disarmed Obi-Wan his lightsaber fell out of his hand before he fell down the shaft.. and he culdnt stop himself rolling down.. so on even ground Obi-Wan still would have been on the floor with some distance between him and his lightsaber. Whilst Maul was standing on top of him Lightsaber ignited. So ill let you figure out what would have happened next.

In theory, Obi-Wan would simply use the force to retrieve his saber and continue fighting. Also, a similar scenario; during the Dooku fight in ROTS, Obi was force pushed in a similar manner by Dooku, and did not lose his saber. Now then- let's compare Maul to Dooku, shall we? Dooku is an experienced, and legendary Jedi Master whose strength in the force is surpassed by a select few. Maul is not one of them.







Originally posted by DARTH POWER
well if you prove to me Obi-Wan can win without a lot of difficulty, then i might agree with you. but you have to prove it first. becuase as far as I can see youve got "the Master of Soresu" vs. a Master of Juyo, therfore also a high level master of several other forms, someone whose been trained by Sidious from day 1 to be a jedi killer, mixed various martial arts into his combat technique and very apt in using a single blade or double bladed weapon. Not saying your wrong about ROTS obi-Wan beating him without too much effort. just saying provide arguments/proof/eveidence to back this up, and then I might start believing it.

and about Maul being one of the best Sith Apprentices in history, is usually what Maul bios say about him.



I dnt see Maul being a match for pre-suit Vader either. but remember Dooku pwned Obi-Wan who in turn got beaten by pre-suit Anakin. so the A>B>C argument doesnt work here.

Okay, let's quit analyzing the TPM Duel and move on to Obi-Wan vs. Maul later on ^^. If you're referring to the Databank, I see nothing of the sort on it. Or could you direct me somewhere else? Thank you.

Now for an argument... no problem. In his fight against Maul- as I've proven above, they were most definetly evenly matched (though it was only because Obi-Wan was using his anger), but at that point, Obi-Wan was using Ataru- the same lightsaber form utilized by Yoda. However, at that point, Obi-Wan, despite being proficient in it, WAS NOT A MASTER in the usage of Ataru. If he coudl use an umastered form and some anger to match with martial arts, Juyo, Double-Lightsaber Maul, I'm pretty confident Obi-Wan's later incarnation will also succeed. Thirteen years after this incident- Obi-Wan has become the greatest known master of another form, Soresu, mastering it to the highest possible degree. He was capable of handling barrages from Anakin, Grievous, and other extremely vicious and aggressive fighters- something that fits Maul's description, no? He fights similarly to these people.

Hence the ABC argument. If, say, Kenobi pwned Dooku and Dooku pwned Maul, I wouldn't use ABC, because Dooku fights entirely differently than Maul. However, Maul fights similarly to Anakin, with a headstrong, somewhat flamboyant and aggressive style. It's these styles that Soresu was created to be the counter of, along with blaster technology- and thus, I see it as Obi-Wan's Soresu, aside from being on a totally different tier than his TPM Ataru, being the perfect counter to Maul's version of Juyo (but maybe not Sidious' version of it).

Now, you used a list of Maul's skills... I'll use some of Kenobi's too, alright? He still has his Ataru skills, using them for offense occasionally, as seen in his fight against Vader. He has knowledge of Shii-Cho, so much that he managed to dupe Dooku, a far more experienced and seasoned combatant than Maul, to think he was using a mixture of it and Ataru- effective, isn't it? He also has knowledge, as indicated by his usage of the high ground, of Sokan, a technique designed to learn how to take the environment to one's own advantage. He was acknowledged by Mace Windu, second only to Yoda (arguably) in terms of lightsaber skills as an incredible master of the simple and powerful Soresu.

Is that enough? Is there any indication Maul would be capable of standing against Obi-Wan without being delimbed and disarmed thirty second into the fight? I don't think so.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Obi-Wan was just lucky that Qui-Gons lightsaber was there... Qui-gons lightsaber is not always gna convieniently be there for him is it?? what could Obi-Wan have possibly done if Qui-Gon wasnt there?? urm nothing... he was absolutely pawned... completely and utterly..


... are you... are you serious?

You DO realize that Maul was one foot away from the edge, right? What Obi-Wan did... was merciful. He sliced Maul in half so that he wouldn't be alive for the free fall. What Obi-Wan COULD have done was front flip over Maul... then just push him. Maul would have fallen to his death, and been alive for the entire fall.

Qui-Gon's lightsaber wasn't even necessary. As soon as Maul walked up to the edge he was doomed. The fool put himself in the worst possible strategic position.

And yeah, Maul was quite literally fighting for his freaking life by the time Obi-Wan fell into the pit. And considering that throughout the entire match Obi_Wan's guard with the lightsaber was never broken... whereas Maul's was... I'd say that's something.

Besides his loss against the Count in AotC, has Obi-Wan's guard ever been penetrated? I can't remember. I think it has once before but I can't remember who did it.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Is that enough? Is there any indication Maul would be capable of standing against Obi-Wan without being delimbed and disarmed thirty second into the fight? I don't think so.

Called one of the deadliest sith apprentices in history of a title that dates back to the ancient of Simus training Sadow.

The best lightsaber duelist prior to TPM realized he could not have beaten him and had to try a suicidal technique. And Anoon's apprentice who has beaten Obiwan (shortly before TPM) in training duels tried a similar technique.

After originally being brought to his knee by force lightning from a force witch and killed her while he still was being shocked.

While he still had an injured leg he fought Qui-gon and obiwan and he killed "one of the most able duelists in the order" in Qui-gon Jinn and unarmed Obiwan and had him hanging for his life.

Single handedly killed the vigos of the Black Sun.

Shown incredibly fast reflexes in shadow hunter. He has been trained in the martial arts, and is probably physically stronger than Obiwan.

Trained by the most powerful sith lord in history.



The Dark Side Sourcebook-Darth Maul
"Darth Maul was taken offworld and indoctrinated into the ways of the dark side, trained by Darth Sidious in not only Sith lore, but in the Jedi arts. Any display of fear on his part was punished with vicious retribution. Any hint of mercy in his character was rewarded with severe cruelty. One those rare occasions when he relaxed his guard, his master nearly killed him to remind him that a Sith can never afford a moment of rest. After years of this kind of treatment, Darth Maul was absolutely ruthless-a perfect Sith weapon. By the
time he reached adolescence, Darth Maul was already a hardened, remorseless killer."

Dark Side Sourcebook -Darth Maul
"Maul's final test as a Sith apprentice occurred on an isolated Outer Rim World. Abandoned there by Darth Sidious, he was told that he had to survive on his own until Sidious returned a month later, all
the while being hunted by hordes of deadly assassin droids. Maul fought as best as he could, but exhaustion and hunger finally took their toll, and one of the tireless droids finally wounded him badly enough that he felt he could not go on. At that point, Darth Sidious returned and challenged his apprentice to a lightsaber duel, telling Maul that he had secretly been training a second apprentice in case Maul failed his final test-which, by failing to kill Sidious in the duel, he just had. Anger and hatred welled up in Maul, and he drew renewed strength from the dark side. Hurling himself at Darth Sidious, he nearly bested his master with a flurry of deadly lightsaber blows. Sidious barely deflected them all."


Though the latter statement is a more of a stretch he was able to take Sidious by surprise with the ferocity of his attacks and at one point was able to bite Sidious.

Then the resurrection Maul was able to almost kill Vader but even though it was way after after tpm it is still a worthy point.

So yea the idea that Maul dies in 30 seconds is a very hard one to swallow.

Oh and Blax didn't Ventress get pass his defense?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
(one of the greatest Sith Apprentices of all time) with a lot of difficulty. Whilst Maul absolutely pawns TPM Obi-Wan. This is just fact. its obvious to anyone whose seen TPM... im not being biased here at all. Obi-Wan was not even a match for Qui-Gon in TPM.. who got pawned by Maul.

wow, says who? quantify and substantiate. who says he's one of the greatest, what source? This is what i mean when i say that "one of the greatest" is given to every tom dick and harry in star wars. One of the greatest in a countdown of what, the top 2000 sith lords? its so unspecific and generic.

why does he take him with alot of difficulty? TPM got 2 good hits in that fight on maul and ultimately survived a direct confrontation with "one of the greatest sith apprentices of all time", 20 years later, whos to say this isn't easy for him? Quantify and substantiate!

Yes, maul gets him down the shaft, but then kenobi kills him, he got cocky, which is bad dueling. Everyone who gets cocky when they have the enemy down in star wars gets killed (maul died twice because of this, anakin got turned into a cyborg, and sideous fell down a botomless pit). And he has gotten cocky in a respective 2 out of 3 lightsaber duels. HE has a conscistency for getting cocky when he has "pawned" his enemy, and then getting noobslapped around!

I don't totally disagree that he "pawned" obi wan when he wasn't cocky, but you must remember, after "pawning" ROTS obi wan (if he could) hes probably going to do something stupid like in TPM and Star Wars Visionaries.

Obi wan isn't a match for maul in tpm. You are right, but he got hits in on him while still in padawn status!

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
...

What Obi-Wan COULD have done was front flip over Maul... then just push him. Maul would have fallen to his death, and been alive for the entire fall.




haha! this gave me a good laugh... thanks!

actually, that does make sense. jump over and force push....

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
why does he take him with alot of difficulty? TPM got 2 good hits in that fight on maul and ultimately survived a direct confrontation with "one of the greatest sith apprentices of all time", 20 years later, whos to say this isn't easy for him?

2 good hits? just the one during their duel.. if your talking about pre-suit Vader, then the A<B<C argument clearly doesnt work.. because Obi-Wan was no match for Dooku whom that Anakin beat.

If your talking about machine Vader, well Clone Maul faught him and almost defeated him.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

Yes, maul gets him down the shaft, but then kenobi kills him, he got cocky, which is bad dueling.

well it was his overconfidence that lead to his death, but I wuldnt call it bad duelling, as the actual lightsaber duel had finished.


Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

Everyone who gets cocky when they have the enemy down in star wars gets killed (maul died twice because of this, anakin got turned into a cyborg, and sideous fell down a botomless pit). And he has gotten cocky in a respective 2 out of 3 lightsaber duels. HE has a conscistency for getting cocky when he has "pawned" his enemy, and then getting noobslapped around!

I agree.. Luke says to Sidious in ROTJ "Your overconfidence is your weakness.." this was the Siths biggest weakness. but all the Siths.. not just Darth Maul.

and yes i get it.. its not "pawned"

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

Obi wan isn't a match for maul in tpm. You are right, but he got hits in on him while still in padawn status!

yeah i agree Obi-Wan did well in that last fight. a sign of the great jedi hes going to become. but remember he wasnt exactly a novice. padawan was just a status... he was ready to be knighted.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
actually, that does make sense. jump over and force push....

aw come on! Maul had a blade in his hand.. if Obi-Wan just jumped over unarmed, by the time he pushes him, maul can easily slice him..

considering Obi-Wan never managed to force push him the whole fight, i dnt see how an unarmed Obi-Wan standing like 2 inches right in front of Maul is going to do it.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
2 good hits? just the one during their duel.. if your talking about pre-suit Vader, then the A<B<C argument clearly doesnt work.. because Obi-Wan was no match for Dooku whom that Anakin beat.

If your talking about machine Vader, well Clone Maul faught him and almost defeated him.



well it was his overconfidence that lead to his death, but I wuldnt call it bad duelling, as the actual lightsaber duel had finished.



actually i was talking about darth maul when i said "one of the greatest sith apprentices", and was refferring to you calling him one of the greatest sith apprentices.

The a>B>c arguement works if a is better then b for the same reason that b is better then c. nows the part where you say "Wtf"

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
aw come on! Maul had a blade in his hand.. if Obi-Wan just jumped over unarmed, by the time he pushes him, maul can easily slice him..

considering Obi-Wan never managed to force push him the whole fight, i dnt see how an unarmed Obi-Wan standing like 2 inches right in front of Maul is going to do it.

maul didn't slice him or even try when he was armed...

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy


Ah- what's easier to land, a kick, or a lightsaber blow? A kick was only shown to have a meaningful effect on a fight during Sidious vs. Mace. Please. Kicks do not indicate superiority.

I think they do

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

Anakin kicked Obi-Wan several times in the fight, and who won?.

It showed Anakin was winning the fight.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

Dooku effortlessly kicked Anakin when he force-grabbed Obi-Wan, but who won the fight?]
Dooku was dominating the fight at that point at least.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

You see my point, I hope; kicks do not necessarily display superiory to an opponent, as do force pushes. Also, remember; Obi-Wan's kick, unlike Maul's later kick (when he kicked him after the single lightsaber barrage) knocked Maul on the FLOOR. Obi-Wan was simply knocked backwards.

what??? he got one kick in the whole fight, and you keep going on about it... Maul kept his weapon and carried on fighting... and yes Kenobi fell to the floor as well! watch carefully he fell on the floor, and hard! but he lost his weapon, so a force push did a lot there.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

Qui-Gon vs. Maul was shorter.

actually it wasnt.. he fought him twice.. once before the force fields went down and once after.. the first one lasted a lot longer.


Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Now, as you see from this analysis, Maul has actually at no point shown himself to be SUPERIOR to Obi-Wan; rather, Obi-Wan had the advantage for most of the duel, although Maul did overpower him with the 'force flick'. Please. It was a force push like any other. Is that enough evidence pointing to the contrary now?

well no... thats your analysis.. its not the analysis of the fight choreographer, which by the way was Ray Park. and iv already sed Ray Park sed in an interview with Wizard the force push thing was just a way of him not repeating the same moves. so dnt look too much into the fact that Maul ended it with a force push.

also as far as i can see the only point Obi-Wan had the advantage was when he cut his saber and kicked him. that was it. and you can keep going over that one hit all you like.

like iv sed numerous times, obi-wan gave it everything, and so the fight went back and forth for a while, until obi-wan started tiring and let his guard down. you can tell from his grunting and face expressions that he was tiring.





Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
In theory, Obi-Wan would simply use the force to retrieve his saber and continue fighting.?

urm doubtful... he was on the floor and still rolling back.. Maul would have easily got his saber first.. and easily sliced obi-wan in that position.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Also, a similar scenario; during the Dooku fight in ROTS, Obi was force pushed in a similar manner by Dooku, and did not lose his saber. Now then- let's compare Maul to Dooku, shall we? Dooku is an experienced, and legendary Jedi Master whose strength in the force is surpassed by a select few. Maul is not one of them.

yes but Dooku didnt disarm Obi-Wan at that point. and even still if Dooku might have been in a position to kill Obi-Wan after that Force Push if Anakin wasnt there.

Why we comparing Maul and Dooku. im a Dooku fan, and know very well Dooku is a league above Maul and Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
maul didn't slice him or even try when he was armed...

he didnt have time.. kenobi was already slicing him with Qui-Gons saber, which Maul didnt know he had. if kenobi went for a push, maul wuld have sliced him..

nd how do u knw he wasnt on the guard for a push?? physical or Force. he was probably just standing there thinking "whats he trying to do?? push me or something???".... he got sliced by a lightsaber because he didnt know kenobi had one so wasnt on guard for that.

this is really stupid and i cant believe im actually debating it.. do you really think kenobi would have even tried that unarmed??? i think he would have rather taken his chances down the pit!

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
he didnt have time.. kenobi was already slicing him with Qui-Gons saber, which Maul didnt know he had. if kenobi went for a push, maul wuld have sliced him..

nd how do u knw he wasnt on the guard for a push?? physical or Force. he was probably just standing there thinking "whats he trying to do?? push me or something???".... he got sliced by a lightsaber because he didnt know kenobi had one so wasnt on guard for that.



It doesn't matter. You can push your one hand forward faster then you can pull back both of your entire arms, then swing forward with a lightsaber. And notice that when Obi-Wan jumped over him Maul didn't even have his hands up. He was just like "lol I have you n- wait... where'd he go?". He would't have been able to gaurd any push, and it's physically impossible to "gaurd" against a push anyway when you're literally two inches away from an edge. You can't "block" a push. The only thing you can do is push back with enough force that you don't lose ground. If Maul couldn't raise his hand up to block one swing, he was not bracing himself to push back with all his might and fall.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
he didnt have time.. kenobi was already slicing him with Qui-Gons saber, which Maul didnt know he had. if kenobi went for a push, maul wuld have sliced him..

nd how do u knw he wasnt on the guard for a push?? physical or Force. he was probably just standing there thinking "whats he trying to do?? push me or something???".... he got sliced by a lightsaber because he didnt know kenobi had one so wasnt on guard for that.

this is really stupid and i cant believe im actually debating it.. do you really think kenobi would have even tried that unarmed??? i think he would have rather taken his chances down the pit!

LMAO we have him debating it.

no, kenobi could take maul unarmed. with both hands tied behind his back. with his teeth.

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
It doesn't matter. You can push your one hand forward faster then you can pull back both of your entire arms, then swing forward with a lightsaber. And notice that when Obi-Wan jumped over him Maul didn't even have his hands up. He was just like "lol I have you n- wait... where'd he go?". He would't have been able to gaurd any push, and it's physically impossible to "gaurd" against a push anyway when you're literally two inches away from an edge. You can't "block" a push. The only thing you can do is push back with enough force that you don't lose ground. If Maul couldn't raise his hand up to block one swing, he was not bracing himself to push back with all his might and fall.

this, however, is true.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I think they do



It showed Anakin was winning the fight.


Dooku was dominating the fight at that point at least.

Err... actually, no. Did you ever trying swordfighting? Chareography, maybe? Do you have any sort of knowledge of actual fighting?

If so, you would know that a kick is used to distance yourself with your opponent or temporarily disbalance him; it indicates that you are incapable of overcoming him- or at least not far enough- so resorting to things other than the saber is necessary. THAT'S what kicks are for. It's not a sign of dominancy. If you look at kicks as an indication of who was dominating the fignt, then you're mistaken.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER
what??? he got one kick in the whole fight, and you keep going on about it... Maul kept his weapon and carried on fighting... and yes Kenobi fell to the floor as well! watch carefully he fell on the floor, and hard! but he lost his weapon, so a force push did a lot there.

I realy don't know if you're making stuff up or I'm just mistaken in interpreting what you're saying, but Maul kicked Obi-Wan in the face, who leapt, did a flip, and landed on his legs as if it was nothing. The thing I'm 'going about' is not the kick, but rather what came before it- the saber slice. This actually showed Obi-Wan getting past Maul's defenses WITH A SABER, something Maul DID NOT DO during the fight to Obi-Wan. All he did was kick him and force push him, but never did he get CLOSE to striking him with an actual saber strike. You seem to completely ignore the fact that Maul was forced into a retreat by Obi-Wan.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER
actually it wasnt.. he fought him twice.. once before the force fields went down and once after.. the first one lasted a lot longer.

In the first one, Maul was simply drawing Qui-Gon away from Obi-Wan in order to finish him quickly in a space that better suits him. The second one was quite brief, actually.




Originally posted by DARTH POWER
well no... thats your analysis.. its not the analysis of the fight choreographer, which by the way was Ray Park. and iv already sed Ray Park sed in an interview with Wizard the force push thing was just a way of him not repeating the same moves. so dnt look too much into the fact that Maul ended it with a force push.

also as far as i can see the only point Obi-Wan had the advantage was when he cut his saber and kicked him. that was it. and you can keep going over that one hit all you like.

NO. NO. NO. RAY PARK DID NOT CHOREOGRAPH THE FIGHT! Someone named Nick Gillard did it. Ever heard of him? Incidentally, he happens to be the swordfight choreographer of the entire Prequels. He's the reason why they're so cool; and Ray Park did not do anything. Link me to the interview please...

AND. Ray Park didn't say Obi-Wan wasn't having an advantage, did he? Please. Counter my analysis yourself, thank you.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
like iv sed numerous times, obi-wan gave it everything, and so the fight went back and forth for a while, until obi-wan started tiring and let his guard down. you can tell from his grunting and face expressions that he was tiring.

And Maul was playing with Obi-Wan, of course! No. Maul was damned serious, and if you didn't read my analysis, please see to it. It clarifies that they were not "going back and forth".







Originally posted by DARTH POWER
urm doubtful... he was on the floor and still rolling back.. Maul would have easily got his saber first.. and easily sliced obi-wan in that position.

I doubt it, but, w/e, as we can't say what would happen if this and that and this and that... it's too complicated for this argument.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER
]yes but Dooku didnt disarm Obi-Wan at that point. and even still if Dooku might have been in a position to kill Obi-Wan after that Force Push if Anakin wasnt there.

Sorry, I just don't get it. I know Dooku didn't disarm Obi-Wan. Isn't that an indication that Maul's much less-masterful force push would not be capable of doing the same to ROTS Obi-Wan?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Why we comparing Maul and Dooku. im a Dooku fan, and know very well Dooku is a league above Maul and Obi-Wan.

Because I'm explaining why Maul's force push would, logically, not disarm Obi-Wan. Dooku is a league above Maul? Yes. Above Obi-Wan? Debatable, but, w/e.

hey sid boy, anakin kicked obi wan multiple in thier rots duel so what anakin incapable of overcomming him?

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
It doesn't matter. You can push your one hand forward faster then you can pull back both of your entire arms, then swing forward with a lightsaber. And notice that when Obi-Wan jumped over him Maul didn't even have his hands up. He was just like "lol I have you n- wait... where'd he go?". He would't have been able to gaurd any push, and it's physically impossible to "gaurd" against a push anyway when you're literally two inches away from an edge. You can't "block" a push. The only thing you can do is push back with enough force that you don't lose ground. If Maul couldn't raise his hand up to block one swing, he was not bracing himself to push back with all his might and fall.

even if he could push him(which i dnt believe for a second).. but for argument sake say he jumped over and pushed him, and TPM in the process probably becomes the biggest flop of all time, but the point is Maul still has his saber so can jump back up and attack an unarmed Obi-Wan.. Obi-Wan was disarmed.. theres not much he could have done except push him and run!

and whose to say if Maul does get pushed he doesnt simultaneously jump back over to the other side of the pit. yes im getting stupid now, but in my defense theres no where intelligent left to go here.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
LMAO we have him debating it.

no, kenobi could take maul unarmed. with both hands tied behind his back. with his teeth.

you might be right. think about it Obi-Wan jumps over with his hands tied behind his back, and then headbutts Maul into the pit.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Err... actually, no. Did you ever trying swordfighting? Chareography, maybe? Do you have any sort of knowledge of actual fighting?

If so, you would know that a kick is used to distance yourself with your opponent or temporarily disbalance him; it indicates that you are incapable of overcoming him- or at least not far enough- so resorting to things other than the saber is necessary. THAT'S what kicks are for. It's not a sign of dominancy. If you look at kicks as an indication of who was dominating the fignt, then you're mistaken.

ok iv never tried sword fighting so ill believe you on that. iv only got a bit of practice at boxing and grappling, not any armed combat.

so tell me something, when Maul hit Qui-Gon just before he killed him, was he trying to distance himself, of trying to leave him dazzled for an opening. these are jedis, not real sword fighters. i would imagine in a real sword fight a kick wuldnt have much effect, and probably would be you trying to distance yourself. however using the force jedi/sith hits can be quite hard, and certainly disorientate the opponent long enough to create an opening.

do you think Lukes kick to Darth Vader in ROTJ did nothing and that was Luke trying to distance himself. Vader actually shouted after that kick, and fell on his butt. also in the novel and comic adaptation of ROTS Dooku takes Kenobi out with a hard kick.

also Mace won his duel due with a kick, so there are plenty of examples, so i dnt think your real life sword fighting analysis is that relevant here. but i am impressed that you know about real swrod fighting none the less.

besides if we compare it to real martial art moves, then lets face it Maul was the best fighter in the whole series.


Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

I realy don't know if you're making stuff up or I'm just mistaken in interpreting what you're saying, but Maul kicked Obi-Wan in the face, who leapt, did a flip, and landed on his legs as if it was nothing.

i never mentioned that kick. that was good fighting by Obi-Wan. but he was making grunting sounds, so i dnt know if we can just assume it was easy for him.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

The thing I'm 'going about' is not the kick, but rather what came before it- the saber slice.
This actually showed Obi-Wan getting past Maul's defenses WITH A SABER, something Maul DID NOT DO during the fight to Obi-Wan.

well he didnt get entirely past Mauls defense, otherwise Maul would have died at that point. and Maul did get past Obi-Wans defense when he disarmed him twice. I also believe every time Maul kicked Kenobi he got past his defense.. his kicks were in the face.. you cant say a kick in the face is just to distance him, its to do him harm.. and it did him harm by making him hit hard agianst the floor hard enough to disarm him.

and your still going on about that one hit Obi-Wan got in the whole fight.


Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

All he did was kick him and force push him, but never did he get CLOSE to striking him with an actual saber strike..
he did get close when he disarmed Obi-Wan.. but Obi-Wan fell down the pit. whats Obi-Wans excuse for not striking Maul down if he penetrated Mauls defenses.


Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

You seem to completely ignore the fact that Maul was forced into a retreat by Obi-Wan...

I think thats a bit of an exaggeration.. he was forced back like a few steps.. the fight didnt move very far, they stayed near the force fields the whole fight. it was nothing like the way Maul made Qui-Gon retreat, or Anakin made Obi-Wan retreat. both fights moving away to completely different areas. and this was because Obi-Wan was fighting with his full fury and anger.. until he started tiring.. he gave it everything but then seemed to be running out of juice.. Elite Hunter has already posted what Maul is capable of at HIs FUll fury... he was almost a match for Sidious!(in saber combat)..




Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

In the first one, Maul was simply drawing Qui-Gon away from Obi-Wan in order to finish him quickly in a space that better suits him. The second one was quite brief, actually....

well thats speculation.. we dnt knw if Maul planned that. remember when the shields went down, Qui-Gon took his lightsaber off first, and Maul was curious, and checked if his lightsaber can penetrate the field. also look at the look on Mauls face when the forcefield went down.. he had that sort of surprised look.

neway if he could take out Qui-Gon that quickly, then he wuldnt have needed the forcefields. I think Maul was genuinely on the retreat at that point after Qui-Gon giving him a good hit.





Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

NO. NO. NO. RAY PARK DID NOT CHOREOGRAPH THE FIGHT! Someone named Nick Gillard did it. Ever heard of him? Incidentally, he happens to be the swordfight choreographer of the entire Prequels. He's the reason why they're so cool; and Ray Park did not do anything. Link me to the interview please.......

it was a Wizard magazine i had back in 1999 when the movie came out... I can look for it, but not sure if I still have it. But I promise you Ray Park said the whole lightsaber fight was all him.. he said hes not boasting but hes very proud of it. and he said the force push thing was his idea so that he doesnt have to keep repeating the same moves(i.e. he didnt want ANOTHER kick).. so i keep telling you dnt look too much into the force push thing


Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

And Maul was playing with Obi-Wan, of course! No. Maul was damned serious, and if you didn't read my analysis, please see to it. It clarifies that they were not "going back and forth"
iv just answered this. see above.




Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

I doubt it, but, w/e, as we can't say what would happen if this and that and this and that... it's too complicated for this argument.

we already saw it.. Maul pushed Obi-Wan on the floor.. Obi-Wan took a hard hit, lightsaber fell out of his hand.. and he continued falling back. Maul was just close by. theres nothing complicated there. Maul had simply won the duel.




Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

Sorry, I just don't get it. I know Dooku didn't disarm Obi-Wan. Isn't that an indication that Maul's much less-masterful force push would not be capable of doing the same to ROTS Obi-Wan?.

well Obi-Wan was much more tired when Maul hit him... that was towards the end of Obi-Wans onslaught.. whilst Dooku pushed him early on in the fight. besides iv never actually said Maul would disarm ROTS Obi-Wan.. ill get back to you later about your apparent 30 second fight between Maul and ROTS Obi-Wan. you havent actually responded to Elite Hunters response to that claim of yours.


Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

Because I'm explaining why Maul's force push would, logically, not disarm Obi-Wan. Dooku is a league above Maul? Yes. Above Obi-Wan? Debatable, but, w/e.

Dooku completely humiliated Obi-Wan... it looked as though Obi-Wan wasnt even good enough to even COMPETE with Dooku.

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
It doesn't matter. You can push your one hand forward faster then you can pull back both of your entire arms, then swing forward with a lightsaber.

wasnt really much room between them for him to push his hand forward.(like 2 inches).. and maul dint need to "pull back both entire arms, then swing forward with a lightsaber" ... he just needed to push his lightsaber hand a tiny bit forward.

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk

If Maul couldn't raise his hand up to block one swing, he was not bracing himself to push back with all his might and fall.

he didnt brace himself for a swing because he didnt knw Kenobi had a lightsaber. If Maul was really as slow as your making out, then Obi-Wan would have just killed him right at the beginning of the fight.

Blax's script fot TPM : "as maul ignites his deadly double bladed weapon, he just stands there and watches Obi-Wan jump at him and stab him.." to be continued..

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Called one of the deadliest sith apprentices in history of a title that dates back to the ancient of Simus training Sadow.

The best lightsaber duelist prior to TPM realized he could not have beaten him and had to try a suicidal technique. And Anoon's apprentice who has beaten Obiwan (shortly before TPM) in training duels tried a similar technique.

Darth Power asked me to reply to this, so I'll reply to it before I go counter his points.

Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar and Saesee Teen were also 'some of the best swordsman ever produced by the order'. Please. ANOON WAS NOT THE STRONGEST SABER DUELIST. If you insist on claiming that's the truth... well, it basically means Maul > Yoda in terms of saber skills. I find that VERY hard to believe. Personally, I think it was the typical author exaggerration, as I've clarified previously. There's nothing to indicate he did actually possess such tremendous saber skills.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
After originally being brought to his knee by force lightning from a force witch and killed her while he still was being shocked.

While he still had an injured leg he fought Qui-gon and obiwan and he killed "one of the most able duelists in the order" in Qui-gon Jinn and unarmed Obiwan and had him hanging for his life.

Single handedly killed the vigos of the Black Sun.

Shown incredibly fast reflexes in shadow hunter. He has been trained in the martial arts, and is probably physically stronger than Obiwan.

Trained by the most powerful sith lord in history.

It's all very impressive. I did not deny the fact that Maul is an extremely talented fighter; but nevertheless, these examples do not state that he > Obi-Wan. The lightning- it's endurance, pain resistance. Maul's a beast, he can resist pain and the likes... it's nothing too special, especially it was merely a witch and not even a true Sith.

Err... I didn't notice him exactly limping in his fight. Are you sure he was injured? I see no canonical proof of that.

Please. 'Fast reflexes', speed, and such, were all common traits used by Jedi and Sith alike. Sidious was known for moving as a blur of speed. Indeed, it's only so likely he trained his apprentice to use that. The fact that he was trained by Sidious means next to nothing; Sidious never intended to keep Maul as a permanent apprentice. Logically, he would not teach him the same amount of dark side secrets and battle techniques he would teach Vader.



Originally posted by Elite Hunter
The Dark Side Sourcebook-Darth Maul
"Darth Maul was taken offworld and indoctrinated into the ways of the dark side, trained by Darth Sidious in not only Sith lore, but in the Jedi arts. Any display of fear on his part was punished with vicious retribution. Any hint of mercy in his character was rewarded with severe cruelty. One those rare occasions when he relaxed his guard, his master nearly killed him to remind him that a Sith can never afford a moment of rest. After years of this kind of treatment, Darth Maul was absolutely ruthless-a perfect Sith weapon. By the
time he reached adolescence, Darth Maul was already a hardened, remorseless killer."

Dark Side Sourcebook -Darth Maul
"Maul's final test as a Sith apprentice occurred on an isolated Outer Rim World. Abandoned there by Darth Sidious, he was told that he had to survive on his own until Sidious returned a month later, all
the while being hunted by hordes of deadly assassin droids. Maul fought as best as he could, but exhaustion and hunger finally took their toll, and one of the tireless droids finally wounded him badly enough that he felt he could not go on. At that point, Darth Sidious returned and challenged his apprentice to a lightsaber duel, telling Maul that he had secretly been training a second apprentice in case Maul failed his final test-which, by failing to kill Sidious in the duel, he just had. Anger and hatred welled up in Maul, and he drew renewed strength from the dark side. Hurling himself at Darth Sidious, he nearly bested his master with a flurry of deadly lightsaber blows. Sidious barely deflected them all."


Though the latter statement is a more of a stretch he was able to take Sidious by surprise with the ferocity of his attacks and at one point was able to bite Sidious.

Then the resurrection Maul was able to almost kill Vader but even though it was way after after tpm it is still a worthy point.

So yea the idea that Maul dies in 30 seconds is a very hard one to swallow.

Oh and Blax didn't Ventress get pass his defense?

That's an exaggeration; and it merely established Maul as a very potent assassin. He was strong, but since there is no source definetly clarifying how strong he was, we can only use the fact that he's called a powerful tool of the dark side.

It's true he was capable of taking Sidious on by surprise; however, Sidious disarmed him and Maul's persistent biting only showed defiance, not any particular skill. Wouldn't Sidious be capable of beheading Maul at that point? I think he should've been, but Maul's persistence was what caused him to bite Sidious.

The resurrection Maul fought against an untrained Darth Vader, a mere shadow of hid former self, the former self that, I may add, was pwned by Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Darth Power asked me to reply to this, so I'll reply to it before I go counter his points.

Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar and Saesee Teen were also 'some of the best swordsman ever produced by the order'. Please. ANOON WAS NOT THE STRONGEST SABER DUELIST. If you insist on claiming that's the truth... well, it basically means Maul > Yoda in terms of saber skills. I find that VERY hard to believe. Personally, I think it was the typical author exaggerration, as I've clarified previously. There's nothing to indicate he did actually possess such tremendous saber skills.



It's all very impressive. I did not deny the fact that Maul is an extremely talented fighter; but nevertheless, these examples do not state that he > Obi-Wan. The lightning- it's endurance, pain resistance. Maul's a beast, he can resist pain and the likes... it's nothing too special, especially it was merely a witch and not even a true Sith.

Err... I didn't notice him exactly limping in his fight. Are you sure he was injured? I see no canonical proof of that.

Please. 'Fast reflexes', speed, and such, were all common traits used by Jedi and Sith alike. Sidious was known for moving as a blur of speed. Indeed, it's only so likely he trained his apprentice to use that. The fact that he was trained by Sidious means next to nothing; Sidious never intended to keep Maul as a permanent apprentice. Logically, he would not teach him the same amount of dark side secrets and battle techniques he would teach Vader.





That's an exaggeration; and it merely established Maul as a very potent assassin. He was strong, but since there is no source definetly clarifying how strong he was, we can only use the fact that he's called a powerful tool of the dark side.

It's true he was capable of taking Sidious on by surprise; however, Sidious disarmed him and Maul's persistent biting only showed defiance, not any particular skill. Wouldn't Sidious be capable of beheading Maul at that point? I think he should've been, but Maul's persistence was what caused him to bite Sidious.

The resurrection Maul fought against an untrained Darth Vader, a mere shadow of hid former self, the former self that, I may add, was pwned by Obi-Wan.

OBI WAN DID NOT PWN VADER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!(mustafar fight)

i think he controlled the fight, but it could have gone either way, so depending on exactly what you mean, i think i agree with you MOC.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Darth Power asked me to reply to this, so I'll reply to it before I go counter his points.

Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar and Saesee Teen were also 'some of the best swordsman ever produced by the order'.

The quote regarding him being one of the deadliest sith apprentices in history is only one of my points. And obviously those 3 jedi were really good but they were facing the most powerful sith in history in both force and saber skills so that also came into play.


I mean no respect but do please pay attention this has been brought up atleast once and probably twice in this very thread. And do note the ROTS Yoda vs Anoon thread that Man of Christ made which this very point is made and I urge you to read it. In the same book, Darth Maul shadow hunter. Yoda is called second to none in lightsaber skill on the council while Anoon was second to none period, as in the whole order. And based on the other quote in cloak of deception it backs up Anoon's case of being the best pure lightsaber duelist/technique(at the time ) . And that would be pre(shortly before) TPM Yoda, while he is younger than his ROTS self, I would argue that the experience gained would help. The very key to Maul's victory was that he first mentally broke down the most skillful lightsaber duelist at the time and once you beat/break your opponent mentally than you will soon win the actually duel which Maul did by having Anoon try a suicidal technique.



First off I have never said Maul would win, I voted for Obiwan but I was originally arguing that the duel wont be as easy as MoC originally said.


I will enlighten you a little bit about the force witches of dathomir(first known to appear in 600 BBY). For one there was a sith academy(in the New Sith wars, it along with the iridonia academy was ranked second to only the korriban academy)) on planet where the force witch came from,so it is by no stretch of the imagination that the force witches (some of whom are capable of killing jedi) would be able to acquire some knowledge from the ruins or from the sith before they left the planet. Anot The force witches as whole practice every day since they need their force abilities to survive, and finally the nightsisters (being the only darkside clan) was constantly fighting in civil wars vs the other clans(and themselves at times) were gaining much experience and were arguably more battle hardened than the other clans and thus more powerful as the other force witches even mentioned this to yoda. So I highly doubt that Mighella is as weak as you infer her to be.




The quote about him being the one of the deadliest sith apprentices in history ( as i said the title arguably dates back to Simus training Sadow) would apply here. And his victories speak for themselves. Dooku was also a tool for Sidious in his plans but does that mean he was weak? Obviously not.



Two things !) how may people do you actually think are even capable to touch him or hit with a kick let alone be able to physically sink their teeth into for more than a split second?


PLEASE read I already posted the source in this thread he got hurt (details of actually how not given) while fighting and a large amount of tusken raiders who unlike the ones Anakin fought were all male( an no children) and were not caught off guard as the one's Anakin would kill. This happens shortly before his duel with Quigon on tatooine and the source is the TPM Journals: Darth Maul.



I posted the source of my argument already on why his reflexes were fast and the fact that the size of the room came into play a few pages ago so I see no reason to repeat yet another one of my points.



WRONG, do you think Sidious would select someone to his apprentice and eventually be able to continue the tradition as is the way of the sith that was not extremely skilled or powerful. Maul's training speaks for itself. And last I checked Maul's training began in secret when Plaugeis was still alive and continued for a long period of time before Sidious even knew that Anakin existed. So Maul was originally intended to be his permanent apprentice unless you can prove that even when Maul was a child and taken in by Sidious (around 53 BBY) that Sidious knew of Anakin decades before his birth, it is very unlikely. So no Maul might not have learned as much for a few reasons, one is that Vader was Sidious's apprentice for a longer period of time.


I am by no means a Vader expect but this statement is completely in correct. As this happens not long (and in the same year as) the battle of Yavin since Vader originally went to the planet looking for the stolen death star plans. But it turned out to be a trap by a group prophets of the darkside. And by this time Vader was in the suit since 19BBY which means he was in the suit for atleast 18 years and was Sidious's apprentice for 18 years so, no Vader was trained at this point. And the mustafar duel was very close in itself, Obiwan wasn't pwning Vader at all unless you are referring to the one particular move.



Is there some conspiracy going on here glare And why have you not replied to his yet?

And at to my Vader point above^


You seem to contradict yourself somewhat with this statement and the one claiming that Vader was untrained which I have proved to be false.

Elite Hunter covered most of this pretty well, but I need to get this out of my system.
Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar and Saesee Teen were also 'some of the best swordsman ever produced by the order'. Please. ANOON WAS NOT THE STRONGEST SABER DUELIST. If you insist on claiming that's the truth... well, it basically means Maul > Yoda in terms of saber skills. I find that VERY hard to believe. Personally, I think it was the typical author exaggerration, as I've clarified previously. There's nothing to indicate he did actually possess such tremendous saber skills.Unfortunately, what you think just doesn't matter. You can't win an argument against written canon.

And I've been over this with you guys before; technical superiority does not mean overall dueling superiority. Maul's training was absolutely insane, and at 22 he was a "high-level master of multiple forms." There's no question that he was practicing far more than Yoda had in any recent stretch of time, so it wouldn't be far-fetched at all to say that he and Anoon were more technically skilled than Yoda.

I'm also curious with the staggering level of disregard you have for established canon. You people treat the third-person narrative claiming Sidious to be the most powerful Sith Lord in history like gospel, but something stated by an omniscient narrator can be negated by your incredulity? Um, no.
See the above. You saying otherwise << canon.
LMAO

Fact when you agree, hyperbole when you don't. Nice.
WTF? Untrained? So what the hell was he doing for twenty-three years? No, the older Vader was probably a far deadlier warrior than his younger and more idiotic self. He was actually only defeated when Maul pulled a Kas'im and surprised him with a Jar'Kai style of combat.

And the implied ABC argument? Not good.

Originally posted by Faunus

And I've been over this with you guys before; technical superiority does not mean overall dueling superiority. Maul's training was absolutely insane, and at 22 he was a "high-level master of multiple forms." There's no question that he was practicing far more than Yoda had in any recent stretch of time, so it wouldn't be far-fetched at all to say that he and Anoon were more technically skilled than Yoda.


You have just proved you are a total idiot.

When you learn to cite sources, read, and, uh, think, you get back to me. With, you know, a "rebuttal."

Until then, do everyone a favor and shut the f*ck up.

fine!
rots novelization:
Yoda had become the most powerful enemy the darkness had ever known.

Sideous mastered all VI forms and was equal to yoda. Are you implying that maul and anoon are better then sideous?

Are you trying to be daft? Or did you seriously miss the past twelve posts I've made detailing the meaning of "technical skill"? I never once said that they could beat him, and I believe I stressed the Bane v. Kas'im scenario as an example at least twice as to why Force power and mastery matter as much or more than pure technique.

Read. People should be flogged for being this redundant.

actually i read, and i see you saying something about how technical skill is different and-blah blah blah

if someone has more technical skill then yoda, and then gets killed by someone with 1/8 the technical skill in a dumb, overconfident, cocky, surprised, unreflexive move, then i am seeing that your arguement has very little impact on the actual arguement..

What exactly are you trying to prove when you say that anoon could beat yoda in a posh fencing match with foils and electric jackets because he has perfect swordfighting tecnique?

And #2 who are you to say this? where is the proof? the quotes? the substantiate? You are speculating that they are equal or more tecnically skilled then yoda, so what has yoda been doing while training jedi for the last 800 years? are you saying that someone who might have lived a mere, say, 30 years is more technically skilled because they practiced more?

Once more i ask, what are you trying to prove? its been established that rots kenobi beats maul. This thread has gotten off topic and needs to be closed.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Okay, let's quit analyzing the TPM Duel and move on to Obi-Wan vs. Maul later on ^^.

Now for an argument... no problem. In his fight against Maul- as I've proven above, they were most definetly evenly matched

yes sooo evenly matched that Obi-Wan ends being disarmed and thrown down a pit.. no im afraid you havent proved that.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

(though it was only because Obi-Wan was using his anger), but at that point, Obi-Wan was using Ataru- the same lightsaber form utilized by Yoda. However, at that point, Obi-Wan, despite being proficient in it, WAS NOT A MASTER in the usage of Ataru. If he coudl use an umastered form and some anger to match with martial arts, Juyo, Double-Lightsaber Maul, I'm pretty confident Obi-Wan's later incarnation will also succeed.

did Obi-Wan ever become a Master of Ataru?? iv never seen any evidence to suggest he progressed in it any more than his PM self. Maul on the other hand was a high level master of multiple lightsaber forms.

and it wasnt a bit of anger.. it was a lot of anger.. which Maul fed off. and since me and many other people are not agreeing that Obi-Wan did match Maul in that last fight, this argument will not work on us at least.

also ROTS Kenobi is not gna use his anger against Maul. by this time he was a very cool headed fighter.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

Thirteen years after this incident- Obi-Wan has become the greatest known master of another form, Soresu, mastering it to the highest possible degree. He was capable of handling barrages from Anakin, Grievous, and other extremely vicious and aggressive fighters- something that fits Maul's description, no? He fights similarly to these people.

Yes we all know Kenobi was the master of Soresu.. thats his biggest plus point in this fight. Anakin was not a Juyo Master. and Grevious was not a Force user. So the comparisons not that similar. However your point that Kenobi can take a huge barrage of hits is valid. though he did not handle Anakin easily.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

However, Maul fights similarly to Anakin, with a headstrong, somewhat flamboyant and aggressive style. It's these styles that Soresu was created to be the counter of, along with blaster technology- and thus, I see it as Obi-Wan's Soresu, aside from being on a totally different tier than his TPM Ataru, being the perfect counter to Maul's version of Juyo (but maybe not Sidious' version of it).

A perfect counter for Mauls Juyo, but not for Sidious's. problem is your just making this up. Maul had Mastered Juyo. a form vii combat style. the deadliest lightsaber form. yes Kenobi can probably handle his attacks being the master of soresu, but your gna have to prove that he can handle a form vii master with ease. as far as i can see it would only be with great difficulty.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

Now, you used a list of Maul's skills... I'll use some of Kenobi's too, alright? He still has his Ataru skills, using them for offense occasionally, as seen in his fight against Vader. He has knowledge of Shii-Cho, so much that he managed to dupe Dooku, a far more experienced and seasoned combatant than Maul, to think he was using a mixture of it and Ataru- effective, isn't it?

again Maul is a High Level Master of Multiple Lightsaber Forms. he can probably use Ataru and Shii-Cho better than Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

He also has knowledge, as indicated by his usage of the high ground, of Sokan, a technique designed to learn how to take the environment to one's own advantage.?
Yes. Agreed. Hes sed to be the most Cunning Warrior on the Council. Hes a smart nd tactical fighter. Nd this is why I agree that Obi-Wan would probably win the fight. but i dnt see any evidence that his lightsaber skills are Superior to Mauls, so thats why I say Kenobi wins after a very tough fight.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
He was acknowledged by Mace Windu, second only to Yoda (arguably) in terms of lightsaber skills as an incredible master of the simple and powerful Soresu.

yes we know. Obi-Wans good at Soresu. ur saying as if this on its own will beat Maul. it wnt. Soresu has no attack. you need to play a different record.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

Is that enough? Is there any indication Maul would be capable of standing against Obi-Wan without being delimbed and disarmed thirty second into the fight? I don't think so.

whoooaaa??? where did this 30 second claim come from exactly. Maul would have to make a mistake or let his guard down in 30 seconds for this to happen, becuase Obi-Wans attack is nowhere near as deadly as Mauls Form VII. And I doubt a Form VII Master would be making a mistake or letting his guard down so soon into the fight.

Apologies for my absence. I was, unfortunately, necessary due to reasons that I will not elaborate upon now. Anyway, moving on:

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
yes sooo evenly matched that Obi-Wan ends being disarmed and thrown down a pit.. no im afraid you havent proved that.

Actually, I have. You have yet to throw off my analysis of the fight- or can you do better than that? If you really think that Maul > TPM Obi-Wan in such a blatant manner, prove it yourself. I've done my analysis, and until you can counter it- step-by-step- you can't say 'lol Maul pwns Obi-Wan'. Maul used an opening in Obi-Wan's defense, and it succeeded very effectively. Obi-Wan, however, was fighting very equally with Maul- while Maul did beat him, Obi-Wan was fighting just as well as he was (arguably even better due to his use of rage).



Originally posted by DARTH POWER
did Obi-Wan ever become a Master of Ataru?? iv never seen any evidence to suggest he progressed in it any more than his PM self. Maul on the other hand was a high level master of multiple lightsaber forms.

Err... no, he didn't. But his Ataru skills at TPM-time were near-mastery- weaker than Qui-Gon's (sorry for my 'prove it' statement previously... it was rather dumb of me, I admit.) master Ataru skills, and- with the advantage of his anger- allowed him to fight equally with Maul using only an umastered form against Maul's 'mastery of multiple lightsaber forms'. I kind of think that this says a lot about Maul's supposed lightsaber skills that were insufficient to overcome Obi-Wan's unmastered form.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
and it wasnt a bit of anger.. it was a lot of anger.. which Maul fed off. and since me and many other people are not agreeing that Obi-Wan did match Maul in that last fight, this argument will not work on us at least.

"WHICH MAUL FED OFF". Do you not realize that this actually means that Kenobi's anger worked against him? Maul used to his own advantage, as Obi-Wan states, despite the temporary boost of power against Obi-Wan.

And will you please, instead of using Maul's statements of power, actually prove that my analysis of the fight is incorrect? Thank you.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
also ROTS Kenobi is not gna use his anger against Maul. by this time he was a very cool headed fighter.

Due to this reason, Obi-Wan's complete mastery of Soresu, near mastery of Ataru, Shii-Cho knowledge, and Sokan skills will bond together fluidly, forming a complex form he was shown to use several times. If his Ataru skills were a match for Maul alone... think of his full repetoire of forms against Maul. Logically, Obi-Wan will completely and utterly outclass Maul.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yes we all know Kenobi was the master of Soresu.. thats his biggest plus point in this fight. Anakin was not a Juyo Master. and Grevious was not a Force user. So the comparisons not that similar. However your point that Kenobi can take a huge barrage of hits is valid. though he did not handle Anakin easily.



A perfect counter for Mauls Juyo, but not for Sidious's. problem is your just making this up. Maul had Mastered Juyo. a form vii combat style. the deadliest lightsaber form. yes Kenobi can probably handle his attacks being the master of soresu, but your gna have to prove that he can handle a form vii master with ease. as far as i can see it would only be with great difficulty.

Anakin was a master of Djem So, Shien, and had some knowledge of Ataru. Anakin was the chosen one. Anakin had more raw force power than any character in the saga. Anakin was using the full force of his rage.

And Obi-Wan beat him. You YOURSELF said that Anakin > Maul, and since they fight similarly- not the same way, but similarly- using fast barrages of attacks, albeit in different manners- Obi-Wan should be able to handle Maul's barrages with relative ease in comparison to Anakin's.

Grievous, meanwhile, was a machine with four lightsabers and agility beyond what a normal human can hope to handle. He also used lightning fast flurries to overcome his opponents. That's SIMILAR to Maul...

Making this up? Each one of my posts stated why his style would be the perfect counter to Maul's. Obi-Wan's speciality is taking out overconfident youths through their mistakes, trapping them in their own too-brutal offense and subsequently delimbing them. It's called the 'wait them out' strategy. Maul's juyo was flamboyant and aggressive, exactly what Obi-Wan's style is all about countering. Oh, and by the way... I stated it was not the perfect counter to Sidious because Sidious fights more cunningly and with more control. That's why Dooku is a perfect match against Obi-Wan.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER
again Maul is a High Level Master of Multiple Lightsaber Forms. he can probably use Ataru and Shii-Cho better than Obi-Wan.

Oh? Really? And where, exactly, did you find this information? Other than where it stated he's a high master of multiple lightsaber forms, is there any source depicting Maul using anything but Juyo? Sorry, but saying he can use it better than Obi-Wan, with absolutely no proof backing that up, is pure- and complete- hyperbole. If he could use Ataru better than Obi-Wan, why did Obi-Wan's simple, inferior Ataru pose such a match to Maul?


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
yes we know. Obi-Wans good at Soresu. ur saying as if this on its own will beat Maul. it wnt. Soresu has no attack. you need to play a different record.

No, I don't. You need to stop telling me what to do, and stop ignoring the thousands of reasons that I posed explaining WHY Obi-Wan's Soresu would be a perfect match to Maul.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER
whoooaaa??? where did this 30 second claim come from exactly. Maul would have to make a mistake or let his guard down in 30 seconds for this to happen, becuase Obi-Wans attack is nowhere near as deadly as Mauls Form VII. And I doubt a Form VII Master would be making a mistake or letting his guard down so soon into the fight.

Then Obi-Wan will MAKE him let his guard down. Trapping one in their own offense is a very potent weapon, and combine feints and acrobatics into that, and you can understand why Obi-Wan's skills are that far beyond Maul's. And where did you decide Obi-Wan is less deadly than Maul? Prove it. Explain to me why, other than using vague statements, his Juyo would be such a strong match to Obi-Wan.

Now then, for Faunus' and Elite Hunter's assessments of me ignoring canon and such in the Darth Vader thing, I'll admit I exaggerrated when I said Darth Vader was untrained. And isn't 'pulling a Kas'im' legitimate? Is there anything wrong with catching your opponent off guard? Not in my book. And other than continuously telling me my ABC arguments are false, tell me why they're false. If his leg really was injured, it obiviously didn't show... I mean, someone with an injured leg can't exactly do head-level kicks. I KNOW. I've been in karate for 9 years and I still have difficulty doing a good head-level kick. Especially if my leg is injured.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
OBI WAN DID NOT PWN VADER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!(mustafar fight)

Oh, I agree ^^. I was simply pulling off an exaggeration. I'm personally of the opinion that Anakin's skills were beyond Obi-Wan's, but Obi-Wan's sokan, intelligence, and Soresu won him the fight.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy






Making this up? Each one of my posts stated why his style would be the perfect counter to Maul's. Obi-Wan's speciality is taking out overconfident youths through their mistakes, trapping them in their own too-brutal offense and subsequently delimbing them. It's called the 'wait them out' strategy. Maul's juyo was flamboyant and aggressive, exactly what Obi-Wan's style is all about countering. Oh, and by the way... I stated it was not the perfect counter to Sidious because Sidious fights more cunningly and with more control. That's why Dooku is a perfect match against Obi-Wan.





I'd like to add to this, that Obi-wan SPECIFICALLY changed forms after fighting Maul, because he realized that Ataru left you tired after a long fight. He saw the weaknesses in that, because of the death of hisj master. He switched to Soresu, BECAUSE it would be a better counter to the type of attack he faced in TPM. So its logical that he would be much better against Maul in ROTS. I actually think i agree with Sidi-boy on the results of the fight. I think Obi-Wan wins, after a fight of about the same length of the Maul-Qui-Gonn Jinn fight. (from the beginning, in the hangar)

So that is much shorter than the anakin-obi-wan fight, but i think that is where it would end up.
but i disagree b/c i don't think that TPM Obi-wan was anywhere near the level of Maul. My main reasoning is that Maul had just dispatched Obi-Wan's Master, and done it with only one display of weakness (getting kicked off the girder) master>padawan
That's kinda how it works.

Another thing that will come into play with juyo is the fact that none of the jedi have have enough knowledge of the form to be considered proficient in it let alone a master. Yes, Obiwan fought Maul but that was over a decade beforehand and I highly doubt that he would call much if any specific traits of the form that will help him. Juyo is almost completely alien to him so that could come into play.

it certainly came into play in tpm.