Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Let us settle this


In corner number one we have the weakling Sargeras, from the Warcraft universe. The poor thing will not have his army to assist him in this fight. How will he possibly survive against........






Sephiroth, in corner number two. The mighty swordsman from the Final Fantasy universe, who busts worlds and annhiliate Gods for morning exercise.

















http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b316/White_Komodo/sephiroth.jpg

http://images.wikia.com/wowwiki/images/1/1c/Sargeras.JPG

Alright, I made a spite thread. GK or Lana, feel free to close it. I felt an urge I just had to follow trough

Will not happen agian

I thought you like Warcraft, why would you make a thread spiting one of its characters?

Sephiroth dies.
As everyone but the Seph fanboys knows.

They should call this place "Sephiroth 'Versus' Forum"

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Sephiroth dies.
As everyone but the Seph fanboys knows.

I know I am a bad person

Originally posted by Keollyn
They should call this place "Sephiroth 'Versus' Forum"

Well they did admit Seph would lose to God/U-DO.
We're making progress.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b316/White_Komodo/sephiroth.jpg

that is utter bullshit. Best villain? No wait, strike that. There's a worse statement in there. Better than Kefka? Kefka was the greatest villain in the history of FF. No other villain was written nearly as well as he was.

Kefka was annoying, he just had a typical insane villain "destroy the world" mentality.

Sarg

Originally posted by Terryc250
Kefka was annoying, he just had a typical insane villain "destroy the world" mentality.

Sargeras is the thypical "destroy existance" villain

Originally posted by Burning thought
Sarg

QFT!

Sargeras (yes i'm a warcraft fanboy)

Originally posted by Utrigita
Sargeras (yes i'm a warcraft fanboy)

Obviously oh

Only fanboys would think Sargeras wins this

Me = Fanboy

Yes it's quiet obvious now I have to whip you

You better do harder than that I am as Fangirlish as it gets. A few whips wont cure that

I will punish you until you scream out Sephiroths name, there will be no mercy before you acknowlegde that Sargeras is nothing next to Sephiroth. Prepare....

That is harsh cry

There is no other way Becci we have to force the fangirl out of you

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b316/White_Komodo/sephiroth.jpg

that is utter bullshit. Best villain? No wait, strike that. There's a worse statement in there. Better than Kefka? Kefka was the greatest villain in the history of FF. No other villain was written nearly as well as he was.

Delita Hyral shits on Kefka and his overrated status.

But at least Kekfa > Sephiroth.

Kuja beats them all though.

Oh, the great Sephiroth. He is so awesome and powerful that he garners the largest fanbase of any RPG villain, and causes jealousy and hatred in fans of lesser beings. Don't hate Sephiroth because he's more popular than you're favorite villain, acknowledge him for his true greatness.

Well at least people who aren't biased will know Sephiroth is shit compared to really good antagonists like Grahf.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Oh, the great Sephiroth. He is so awesome and powerful that he garners the largest fanbase of any RPG villain, and causes jealousy and hatred in fans of lesser beings. Don't hate Sephiroth because he's more popular than you're favorite villain, acknowledge him for his true greatness.

Sargeras is not my favorite villain. Far from it Could probably list 30-40 that is above him

Rigard, Jafar and Priscilla is my favorite fictional villains

All three, as well as Sargeras, would kick Sephiroth butt though

Originally posted by Utrigita
There is no other way Becci we have to force the fangirl out of you

You could spank me lion

If he's unable to I volunteer to take over the spanking.

I don't know much about WoW so heres my question to the more knowledgeable posters: If Sephiroth has any hope of winning it would be his super nova attack, so is Sargeras capable of surviving super nova if he was hit by it?

Originally posted by JerseyMage
I don't know much about WoW so heres my question to the more knowledgeable posters: If Sephiroth has any hope of winning it would be his super nova attack, so is Sargeras capable of surviving super nova if he was hit by it?

Super Nova is heat, right? Sargeras is immune to all heat-based attacks. That, as well as the fact that his body is nigh indestructable. Trough countless years (Thousands millenias at least) have Sargeras been in battle and he has not been harmed once. He has fought people that basically blasts mountains and not even the most powerful Guardian could harm him (That says A LOT)

I don't think immunity to heat would apply to the energy coming from the sun, if you look up thermal energy on wiki you can figure it out.
I can explain further if you want.

The better bet would be his indestructable body. All that remains then is to quantify his level of defense. If its high enough, I think he could survive super nova and defeat Sephiroth. Can you give more feats besides the mountain blasts, and explain further what the fact about the Guardians implies about his defense levels?

more importantly, Sephiroth wouldnt eve start his Supernova attack before Sarg blasts him into atomized matter that fluctuates in and out of time and reality

The Guardians are the most powerful magicians on Azeroth and are assigned to safeguard it from outer threat. Their magical level is extreme.

I am not sure what feats to bring up. He has fought billions, mighty magicians and a lot more and never gotten himself a scratch. He blessed Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden with near indestructable bodies as well. Archimonde could take a tackle from Malorne without a scratch. Malorne is a gigantic ram, that instead of blasting mountains would tackle them to pieces


I would like to go so far as to say that Sargeras is unharmable by anything Sephiroth can bring forth. His one vulnerability is immortal magic, which is not something Sephiroth can bring forth. Even so, Sargeras soul is so well defended that not even an army of soul eaters could inflict damage on it.


He is basically the founder of Warlock magic, and going by that can he rise from the dead by store his soul on an alternative plane and re-enter his defeated body upon defeat.

The feats you mention are impressive but I think you should explain how those specific feats indicate he could survive a planet busting attack.

Would the feat of moving into an alternate plane and then returning to his body perhaps allow him to return to a different body i.e. one that isn't destroyed in the super nova blast, ? If so he could avoid the blast by transferring to a body on a different planet.

The thing is that even if Sargeras body is destroyed (Unlikely, even by a world-busting attack), his spirit would live on. Even as nothing but a spirit has Sargeras used magic.

And for as far as I know, Sephiroth has never busted a planet.

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Well at least people who aren't biased will know Sephiroth is shit compared to really good antagonists like Grahf.

QFT. Grahf is one of the greatest villains in gaming history. Xenogears shits on FF7's story.

And Supernova is an illusion. It doesn't really bust planets.

Well you should have said that from the beginning. To survive supernova, Sargares doesnt need to do anything, since supernova would only destroy his physical body.

Moreover, you indicate that Sargares can still use magic to effect the physical world from his spirit form? Although some posters claim Sephiroth can harm spirits with his sword, and perhaps TK, supernova is not a spiritual attack, so he couldn't use it to kill Sargeras, which is what my initial claim called into question.

And planet busting is a figure of speech, in the FFVII story, Sephiroth did not succeed in his plan with meteor, which presumably wouldnt have destroyed all of the planets mass anyway. What I meant was that supernova is capable of destroying a plane, since it is capable of destroying most of the solar system.

That thing about swords harming spirits was silly. Just because his sword is based on a spirit or whatever, does not mean he can wound other spirits. And even if he can, nothing says he can do so to a fatal extent.

Because Sargeras is likely the most powerful spirit Sephiroth would ever encounter. He even as a spirit used magic on from another dimension (As in, he was in one dimension and had his magic apply in a second dimension)

but as Trickster says it doesnt destroy the solarsystem, its an illusion

I don't agree that super nova is an illusion, although its a debate thats probably been done to death since theres so much FF on the versus forums. If it becomes a decisive point for a particular match, I might argue my view at that time.

Personally from what I have seen, Sargeras could simply stand motionless for a while without Sephiroth being able to scratch him. When he grows bored, he with a snap of his finger would drain the soul of Sephiroth. I have a strong feeling that Sephiroth's Super Nova is not instant.

Or, he could within the instant possess Sephiroth, like he did with Aegwynn. He then hides within Sephiroth without his knowledge a few hundred years for the sake of entertainment, then when he finally grow bored make Sephiroth kill himself

I'm going to be completely honest.

Anyone who thinks Sephiroth wins is a fvckin moron.

The titans from Warcraft aren't pretender Gods like Seph is, they make worlds.

Sargeras can destroy Sephiroth in more ways than Seph can destroy a blade of grass.

And Seph, though I like him, is one of the most overrated characters in existence.

Originally posted by Becci
have a strong feeling that Sephiroth's Super Nova is not instant.

your feeling is right, look for yourself:

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/QLnejSsa7_k&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/QLnejSsa7_k&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

even if Sarg allows Sephiroth to cast the spell then he would have to sit and w8 a long while before it hits him

Originally posted by Burning thought
your feeling is right, look for yourself:

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/QLnejSsa7_k&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/QLnejSsa7_k&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

even if Sarg allows Sephiroth to cast the spell then he would have to sit and w8 a long while before it hits him

You spend too much time at HoH. You do not embed here

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
I'm going to be completely honest.

Anyone who thinks Sephiroth wins is a fvckin moron.

The titans from Warcraft aren't pretender Gods like Seph is, they make worlds.

Sargeras can destroy Sephiroth in more ways than Seph can destroy a blade of grass.

And Seph, though I like him, is one of the most overrated characters in existence.

As much as I have tried, I couldnt have said it better myself

oh yes sorry "sigh"

Ye0dJhSH_LU

whats even more interesting a LOK fan posts it, if the queer old game music bothers you, the little squeeks and such turn the sound off but its only the beginning, he takes about 3/4 seconds just to raise his arm

The time period where he makes the motion is long enough for Sargeras to have killed him

Honestly, Sephiroth has shown no amazing endurance feats. Sargeras will incinerate him and devour his soul before he get the chance to lift his hand to the air.

Sephiroth Endurance is prob just above human level

At least if you judge by AC, which everyone claims to be the most powerful version of Sephiroth.

well exactley, tbh ive not seen any high end feats of endurance/durability, in most vids of him hes been impaled and basically died like a human but even tho Terry says he was human then, his endurance has not shown through much in AC or his highest forms, theyve all been knocked aside like flies when someone actually bothers to attack him properly, usually Cloud, but ofc then its PIS........

Originally posted by Becci
You could spank me lion

Well that was what I was thinking "pops belt"

Btw going by the handbook any heat radiated would have no effect on Sargeras...

Originally posted by Utrigita
Well that was what I was thinking "pops belt"

Btw going by the handbook any heat radiated would have no effect on Sargeras...

The... belt

That is what I have been saying Sargeras is litteraly immune to all heat.

There is no other way

Since he is a flame constantly and cursing with demonic fel energy then yes.

Have you ever wondered what would happen to, for example, Cenarius if he drank the blood of Mannoroth?

Sargeras is a tool. He's a giant goat that can't even do his own bidding. The Warcraft fans here are just upset because Sephiroth is more popular than anything in WoW.

Also, when we see Sephiroth in Advent Children, he isn't using any effort, that's what the creators themselves have said. The Sephiroth we see in AC isn't even using 10% of his power. FF VII n00bs, gotta love 'em.

Sephiroth is more popular, yes. That does not change the fact that Sargeras would kick his ass.

Or does popularity win fights nowdays? Because in that case will Mario and Spider-Man dominate the fictional world.


So what if he did not use any effort? We were talking about the endurance of AC Sephiroth. I assume you mean that he wasnt putting any effort into dying either. Sucks to be him, because Sargeras would be putting an effort into trying to die and would likely fail. Sephiroth died by some slashes with a blade, while Sargeras could not take his own life even if he wanted to. Sargeras blade is roughly the size of the whole city that Sephiroth was fighting Cloud in. He could flatted Sephiroth by misstake.

lol FC isnt even funny anymore "sigh"

FF7 universe would be Sargs plaything

Sephiroth would take down Sarg with one strike. Sarg has never done anything, he needs an army to do things for him and hides himself away out of cowardice. Sephiroth is a threat to the cosmos by himself.

Cloud's Omnislash was charged with a ton of spirit energy, it is an extremely powerful attack that could take down anything in Azeroth or Outland, and it didn't kill Sephiroth, merely the Jenova cells he was using to take form, Sephiroth is still alive and kicking as referenced by his "I will never be a memory" line.

And let's not withhold the fact that Sargeras was obliterated by a human sorceress, which in FF VII terms would equate to a decent materia user.

The rest is not worth answering to.

but on the final thing. No because Warcraft spells dont take a long time to cast, a lot of them are instant

look lets put it in terms you may understand

Sephiroth= Lambda class shuttle


Sargerus= Eclipse II

A more accurate Star Wars analogy would be:

Sephiroth: DE Palpatine

Sargeras: One of the younglings from AotC.

not really, infact now you mention a youngling perhaps that could be Sephiroth AND Sargerus is the sun crusher

Nah, Sephiroth is more like a force storm, and Sargeras is like moving a piece of fruit with the force.

it was funny at first, amusement over, you have no idea it seems on Sephiroths strengths in comparison to Sargerus....lol....

its like giving Sepiroth the win over a Skyfather in Marvel lmao

"w8s for FC to post saying Sephiroth would crush Skyfathers"

No, I'm afraid its you who has no comprehension of Sephiroth's power, not knowing his godlike power. I wouldn't expect you to get it though, its ok.

damn, i wish i was more intelligent, all bow to God sephiroth durw00t, Universe stomper and Titan crusher!! hurray!!!

See there, doesn't it feel good to accept the truth?

yeh wonderful "alll haaailll sephiroth" lmao.....its a hell lot funnier thinking tihngs your way

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Sephiroth would take down Sarg with one strike. Sarg has never done anything

Your right. Sargeras has no feat. These are a few things he has never done:

-he has never defied the pantheon confidently,
-fighting the Old Gods and single-handed defeating armies beyond billions is nothing.
-he never defeated Aegwynn,
-he never made two Eredars among the best magicians in the universe with a motion,
-he never used magic from a dimension away,
-he never with words alone spread fear in billions of demons,
-he never destroyed any of the countless worlds he walked by,
-he never became the most feared entity in the universe,
-he never became the champion of the Pantheon,
-he never founded Warlock magic,
-he never spoke with such a strong voice that a planet could quake,
-he never hid inside the most mighty guardian of all time,
-he never opened a gate despite the fact that the planet had a barrier around it,
-he never scorched an entire planet by walking trough it,
-he was never able to observe planets without actually being there,
-he was never the one tracking down the Old Gods,
-he has never shown to have cosmical awareness,
-he never blessed Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden,
-he never corrupted the Demon Soul,
-he never forged some of the most powerful items in the universe,
-he never spread fears in races who was claimed to be fearless,
-he has never transformed pure beings into demons,
-he never was the single most dangerous entity in existance.



I am sorry to have ever questioned your flawless knowledge in Sargeras.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
And let's not withhold the fact that Sargeras was obliterated by a human sorceress,

Your uncunningness amuse me. He defeated her, in the most humiliating way possible for a Guardian

Becci dont lie, you know Sarg gets one shotted by Sephiroth, hell a remnant could prob do it right FC?

Originally posted by Burning thought
Becci dont lie, you know Sarg gets one shotted by Sephiroth, hell a remnant could prob do it right FC?

I am afraid to admit it I love Sargeras to infinity. I do not wish to see him perish

Its good to admit the truth, isn't it? Even if you admit it with a sarcastic tone its still good for your recovery from Sephiroth hatred. Now I want you all to meditate on your favorite aspect of Sephiroth and then repeat the chorus of One Winged Angel ten times.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Its good to admit the truth, isn't it? Even if you admit it with a sarcastic tone its still good for your recovery from Sephiroth hatred. Now I want you all to meditate on your favorite aspect of Sephiroth and then repeat the chorus of One Winged Angel ten times.

-"He goes for it..... he is going to shoot..... HE SHOOTS.... is it going to....? Nooooooooo, it is a miss. He missed the goal by far. How akward for the man with the funny hat"
-"It sure is, Tom, it sure is. One could have thought he had it there. What a mighty let-down"


I do not hate Sephiroth I in fact find him an interesting character

my most faveritest!! time of all God sephiroths adventures is when he gets impaled by Cloud and moans for his mother......

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Sephiroth would take down Sarg with one strike. Sarg has never done anything, he needs an army to do things for him and hides himself away out of cowardice. Sephiroth is a threat to the cosmos by himself.

Cloud's Omnislash was charged with a ton of spirit energy, it is an extremely powerful attack that could take down anything in Azeroth or Outland, and it didn't kill Sephiroth, merely the Jenova cells he was using to take form, Sephiroth is still alive and kicking as referenced by his "I will never be a memory" line.

And let's not withhold the fact that Sargeras was obliterated by a human sorceress, which in FF VII terms would equate to a decent materia user.

Except that the only weapon that have ever been remotely close to hurt Sargeras was infused with the power of Elune, Malorne and Cenarius pure nature magic, Yes Sephiroths blade would cut right through Sargeras skin

No lets not withhold the fact that Sargeras was fighting in a Avatar at a greatly reduced powerlevel and wanted to be defeated, but who cares about context?

Originally posted by Utrigita
No lets not withhold the fact that Sargeras was fighting in a Avatar at a greatly reduced powerlevel and wanted to be defeated, but who cares about context?

And won

In the long run yes he did.

He won the moment his physical form fell. She was fooled completely

He was killed by a human. He didn't win, he was destroyed and then his spirit ran away to cower while his army tried to do his bidding and failed miserably.

Can people be banned for just being wastes of space and humanity?

Can people be banned for just being wastes of space and humanity?

No, but you can be banned for being the sock of a pedo.

\Blah blah blah? I'm also V2D now if accusations are proof.
You're just a worthless member who everyone knows is a moron.
End of story.

I'm sorry, you have me confused with Burning Thought and yourself. Go home now, pedo.

Yawn. Why don't I just call you Nikkolas?
Retards accusing other mmembers of being socks are so tiresome.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
He was killed by a human. He didn't win, he was destroyed and then his spirit ran away to cower while his army tried to do his bidding and failed miserably.

Let me correct that by copy what you said and adjust words:

He was killed by an Eternal. He won, he willingly faked his death and then his spirit possessed Aegwynn's body subtle, in which he hid for a long time. Later on, she became pregnant and he transfered to the unborn inside of her. As the unborn was born and grew, he eventually used that body to open the Dark Portal, granting outer access to the world.




Aegwynn couldnt do anything against him. He faked the entire fight from start to end. When she thought she had everything under control, the truth was that she wasd doing exactly what he wanted. He had set up a trarp and she fell for it.

The sad part is that you are clueless, ignorant and STILL I try talk some sense into you

Perhaps should I just give up. You know less about Warcraft than my baby sister.
And I dont HAVE one

Aegwynn was very mortal, and nowhere are we told that he faked anything. He was crushed, defeated, made a mockery of. He had to result to subtle tactics because he is far too weak to confront anything head on. This is why he needs trickery, deception and an army to do his bidding, because he's a joke.

What happened to that intelligence you were starting to gain? Your recovery from Warcraft fangirlism was coming along so far.

Giygas rapes Sargeras!
Wait, this a Sephiroth VS. Sargeras match.
Oh, carry on.

Cloud is more mortal, then again Sephiroth got pwned by him how many times?

lets rate this in defeats

Sephiroth- lost count, at least about 4 off the top of my head, AC, imapling when he was human, and all those plans foiled, prob much more than 4

Sarg: once......

Sarg is what sephiroth "wants to be" unfortatley Sephiroth A: needs a planet and B: has never busted a planet

Sarg has beaten nations across millions of worlds and does not need planetary transport,what a shame for sephiroth lmao.....

Sephiroth would go up in space then realise his flight is very limited and floats for eternity haha

With an limitless army of fangirls, Sephiroth wins.

hehe i think FC is the avatar embodiment of the combined Fangirls

The words of Sephiroth's creators tell us he lost because he chose to, he was not trying at all. The creators of Sargeras tell us nothing of the sort, in fact they imply very heavily that Sargeras lost because he wasn't strong enough to take down the equivalent of a regular human materia wielder. Sorry folks, Sephiroth still wins.

he never did.......youve not proven anything at all chuck apart from you cant debate and you are a joke, thats not debating ime afraid

also brush up on your Warcraft lore, I know Becci likes to talk about it constantly even if its with someone like you who doesnt have a clue but maybe if we showed you your errors you would pack up shop.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Aegwynn was very mortal, and nowhere are we told that he faked anything. He was crushed, defeated, made a mockery of. He had to result to subtle tactics because he is far too weak to confront anything head on. This is why he needs trickery, deception and an army to do his bidding, because he's a joke.

What happened to that intelligence you were starting to gain? Your recovery from Warcraft fangirlism was coming along so far.



Sargeras faked his death in order to access Azeroth from the inside. You have no idea what you are talking about Aegwynn does not have the means to kill Sargeras. He just made her think she did.

Aegwynn was not mortal. She was Eternal. An Eternal Guardian:
You obviously do not know what an Eternal Guardian is. Since you do not, let me brief you up on "Eternal":



Now Eternal Guardian:


As much "mortal" as Aegwynn was, no power on Azeroth could even harm Sargeras. Heck, Archimonde walked trough the planet with a yawn. Archimonde's powers compared to Sargeras is like comparing the size of an ant to the size of a sun. Archimonde single-handed destroyed every line of defense Azeroth had to provide, but was defeated on the finishline as the Worldtree gave out a full-scale blast upon him.

Archimonde fought and killed Malorne, who Sephiroth could not even dream about defeating. He fought this God and he won without a scratch.





Bottom line: fascistcrusader is uneducated in the matter

In almost all matters, I think personally he should run back to the Star wars forum where he may know something

Of course no force in Warcraft would harm him, the most powerful beings they have are akin to a guy with a few materia. The ShinRa infantry could take down Archimonde, Sephiroth would manhandle Sargeras in his AC form.

AC Sephiroth died in a couple of slashes. Sageras slashes would cleave the entire city in one strike (Yes, I know it is a big city) Sephiroth's slashes would not even tickle Sargeras skin. Sargeras could allow Sephiroth to try kill him and then enjoy watching Sephiroth fail.

Tell us, FC, how will Sephiroth kill Sargeras? The Supernova attack (which takes a while to activate) would at top, if he is lucky which he would not be, destroy his body. What will Sephiroth do against the soul of Sargeras? Sargeras spirit could possess Sephiroth and have him chop his own head of. And wouldnt a Supernova kill Sephiroth as well?



Although, you likely know all of this. I have figured it out already. No one can be as ignorant as you currently are. It is against all logic, so you are obviously faking. You are trying to trigger us to heat up by claiming Sephiroth would even have a chance against Sageras. You know he does not, but you want to see if we give up in case you are stubborn enough with bringing up crappy statements.

FC, you are trolling and outright lying at parts to make yourself sound like you actually know what the hell you are talking about, and are failing at it.

Sephiroth never chose to lose any fight, that has never even been mildly implied.

The most powerful beings in WoW create and destroy worlds, yet a dude with a few materia equals them?

GTFO my internet.

Sargeras rips souls out of a body in an instant Let us not forget that The only even remote hope Sephiroth would have is his Supernova (However, Sargeras is completely immune to heat), but considering how long it takes to apply, he will be dead long before it applies and Sargeras gone before it impacts.

As weve found out, Supernova is not real, its an illusion, and although a Supernova is more than just heat if it was real, Sargerus would be damn slow if Sephiroth actually gets one off

There actually are a few beings in Warcraft that could Defeat Sargeras, Aman'Thul for instance the Old Gods combined maybe all the Element's Lieutenants combined at full power, the Pantheon combined and a few of them combined could too. Else I see none currently in Warcraft that could defeat Sargeras.

Yes BT it is but if Sephiroth realised a Supernova I see no way he could survived that himself.

Elune could likely give him quite the run, although the full extent of her combat abilities is unknown. She is a peaceful Goddess.

I didn't add Elune because I have no idea about the extent of her age.

If she was active around the exsitance of the Old gods and was powerless against them and so on...

Then I see her giving Sargeras a Fight even chasing him away but imo there is nothing saying she would whop his ass.

She is a warrior Goddess and considered one of the mightiest entities in existance. That, and she created the moonkin

She created the moonkins! She deserve worshipping for simply doing that

Moonkin??? are you talking about the night elves?

weird bird/bear creatures lol
http://www.delusionsofadequacy.org/modules/icontent/images/Moonkin.jpg

Originally posted by Utrigita
Moonkin??? are you talking about the night elves?

Mighty Godlike harbringers of Elune. They basically manifest a direct link between themselves and the moon. One of the most magically effective races on Azeroth

Cool.

imo the Draenei, is the most magically effective race on Azeroth.

Thus' the words "One of"

I know I just thought I would comment on who I believed to be the most powerful of them all currently

Velen surely is in the top 5.

Of those currently On Azeroth? Agreed.

Kael'Thas however I have no idea on where I should place. The girl with the Sunwell imo is a candidate for number 1.

Anveena IS the Sunwell. She top Azerothian magicians easily. She melted Dar'Khan with a thought

And the Guardians have the base of their power from the Sunwell, but only portions. Which makes her an easy superior force to Aegwynn and the other Guardians.


Kael'Thas can summon the phoenix God at will, which is kinda powerful. He has bypassed the magical limits of gravity, altering the gravity base of his surrounding. That, and he is absorbing the power of a Naruu. He is mighty, but his extent is unknown.

In order, top 10 magicians (Alive, that is) according to me is:

1. Anveena
2. Malygos
3. Xavius (?)
4. Velen
5. Azshara
6. Medivh
7. Alexstrasza
8. Kel'Thuzad
9. Malfurion
10. Lich King

I know all that hence my reason for saying number one Malygos is in no way a pushover either

Imo you can put Xavius right back below Azshara, it was stated in the War trilogy that Mannaroth didn't touch her because only Archimonde and Sargeras had the power needed to defeat her from his point of view. Imo he should be placed lower then Medivh.

can someone tell me why Lich King is below the last 5? what has Medihv done or Kelth, or Aex for that matter to put them on Lich King level?

Dont forget even before his mind was vastly expanded he was a very high shman (or was he a warlock before) and magic user opening gateways to other worlds and things

The Lich King is placed there BT because he hasn't showed Magical Abilities putting him higher however were we to place who has the greatest mental arsenal then Lich King would imo be in top 3 strong candidate for number 1.

and if you are asking us to place the most powerful beings on Azeroth currently then yes he would certainly be higher, but he hasn't showed many fascinating accomplishments on his own. BT he required either 4-6 very powerful artifacts in order to open the gateway on top of that he lost control over the spell without anyone interfering in his casting, something neither of the others would have done.

how can you be sure?

besides i sitll think he is being underestimated, but i dont know of when Alex has made magic of high level, and surely Kelthuzard is not past Lich King, a lot of his newfound lich powers are there from the Lich king arent they

Be sure of that he is below the others in magical skill? Because he hasn't showed himself to be higher. The MoM too doesn't place him high in magical powers then Kel'Thuazad for instance not that the handbooks should be used constant but it was as a answer to your question why

Being underestimated? I would put him place as one of the most powerful being on azeroth, how is that underestimating him? What Becci and me are discussing here are purely magical powers.

But Kel'Thuzad was already a extremely powerful wizard before and he has suceeded in open a portal to summon archimonde, also it wasn't from the Lich King but the Sunwell that Kel'Thuzads new power came.

It is correct that I may have put Xavius a little too high. However, he is not one to be underestimated.

Originally posted by Burning thought
can someone tell me why Lich King is below the last 5? what has Medihv done or Kelth, or Aex for that matter to put them on Lich King level?

Dont forget even before his mind was vastly expanded he was a very high shman (or was he a warlock before) and magic user opening gateways to other worlds and things

Lich King would defeat a lot of them on the list, but when it comes to actual knowledge in the arts of magic and how to master it, he will land pretty low among the top 10.

The reason I put Kel'Thuzad over Lich King, is because in for several reasons. One would be because Kel'Thuzad has done a lot of impressive things. Both before and after he died. Things that is not within Lich King's reach.

Also, in the "Sunwell Triology", Lich King is spoken of in the way that he need Kel'Thuzad. When Dar'khan was taming the Sunwell, there was a number of dialogues. One of the things said was that Lich King was going to have Kel'Thuzad steal Dar'Khans newfound powers.

Lich King, as mighty as he is and could likely defeat Kel'Thuzad in brief moments, can not match in the quantity of magical efficiency that Kel'Thuzad holds.


As for Alexstrasza, you may see her as the aspect of life and death. The thing however, is that the red dragonflight is also master magicians. Krasus who is a red dragonflight could seal in the might of the sunwell and hide it from all beings. He also was able to break loose from the grasp of the Demon Soul.

The Red Dragonflight is a highly advanced magical race. Among the flights, they are second highest in efficiency. Krasus/Korialstrasz has fought Hakkar, Neltharion, Mannoroth, Archimonde and more and lived. The league of magical power in the Red flight is vast. Quite surely above Lich King's versatility. Again however, Lich King could quite surely defeat Korialstrasz with no problems at all.

And of course you have already realised that Alexstrasza is a better version of Krasus.



My point is that the list is not rated after combat efficiency, but magical efficiency.

well we assume is not within the lich kings reach we dont actually know 100% what his capable of now

perhaps not

but breaking loose from the Demon soul, was htat all magic? same with hiding the sunwell?

I know, i wasnt saying he was being underestimate in combat, ive just not read material where the Red flight have done magic things like that nor would i imagine Malfurion above the Lich King, especially not now since surely almost all of the Kings might comes from magic power as well, he is more of a magical being imo than physical

Korialstrasz lead the magical divisions during the war of the ancients. That alone show great power. He had to break out of the Demon Soul grasp trough magic. He was not physically capable of such a thing. The Demon Soul even had actual aspects back of, because of the danger it meant.

As for the Lich King, he is powerful, but you give his magical abilities too much credit. He lost his shaman powers. He is nothing but a mighty necromancer. A very mighty Necromancer, but a necromancer non-the-less. And after Arthas grabbed the helmet, Lich King became physical once more. He is not as magically developed as you might think.

We may not know much about him, but his versatility is very low. He lost his shaman powers and Arthas lost his Paladin powers. That leaves Lich King as a mighty Lich. Which in it self is very impressive, but not enough to compeete with those of higher versatility.

BECCI

Agreed Becci he isn't but higher ranking the Azshara isn't correct.

Imo if it's Xavius High Elf he isn't justified to be there, if it's Xavius Satyr he deserves a place on the list.

BT

Hence placing him where he is

The Sunwell has to be magic to cheat the the magical senses of others. And the Demonsoul imo magic too along with will power.

The day the Lich King calls forth a storm that can lay waste to the Burning Legion like Malfurion did while he was still relative unexperienced in the arts of Druidisme which was some 10.000 years ago, The Lich King can be ranked higher until then I think his place is ok based on what we know about his magical abilities.

He is a fusion between a magical being and a physical the Lich King is imo not more of one then the other.

why not? lichdom can lead to many things anyway, his mind is vast, 10k fold his mind is expanded, that could mean he can think of 10k more ways perhaps to do something to someone, or to use his power, you did say that Archimonde/kiljaedens weakness is although their power may be potentially omnipotent, they dont have the intellect of the things they want to do, wheras Lich King is expanded in mind 10k fold who knows what he is capable of using his power for, dark power can do so many things usually.

He may not be as limited as you may think, he does not need Shaman or paladin if the vastness of his mind allows him to see into his own power far higher than most in Azeroth.

His MIND is vast BT, and his mental arsenal is without a doubt one of the greatest on Azeroth currently, but that was all that expanded not his magical powers. Only his psychic, and I simply doesn't get the point about Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden are you saying they lack talent for magic ore what???

His vast mental capacity is mostly used to control the undead, that was the reason why his mind was expanded, it doesn't mean that his intelligence grew thousand fold.

As i said, if Archimonde could be proven to have greater mind, or Killy a greater mind than the Lich King, then perhaps they would have more power, his magical powers were indeed expanded since Kiljaeden gave the Lich King more power overall did he not? he doesnt use Shaman powers, he must have gained lich power and other such from Killy.

Becci or you once said that Killy and Archi have potential omnipotence, their understanding however of power and such is not vast enough to use omnipotence and likely never will, so i was saying if Lich King has a greater mind and is expanded beyond them, perhaps he has a few more tricks than those who cannot see as far as he can in the mind.

It simply grew full stop, it doesnt say "just so" he can control the undead, thats definatley an ability of his mind but that is never stated the limit, the mind in a way can amount of intelligence if your mind is so much vaster than others.

Originally posted by Burning thought
why not? lichdom can lead to many things anyway, his mind is vast, 10k fold his mind is expanded, that could mean he can think of 10k more ways perhaps to do something to someone, or to use his power, you did say that Archimonde/kiljaedens weakness is although their power may be potentially omnipotent, they dont have the intellect of the things they want to do, wheras Lich King is expanded in mind 10k fold who knows what he is capable of using his power for, dark power can do so many things usually.

He may not be as limited as you may think, he does not need Shaman or paladin if the vastness of his mind allows him to see into his own power far higher than most in Azeroth.

Lich King may have had his mind expanded 10k fold, but lets face it. He was not very bright in the first place The expanding would not do to him what it would do to for example: Gul'Dan, or Durotan.

His 10k fold would in my opinion barely get him close to Kil'jaedens intellect. You are right though, he is more powerful, but not more magically efficient. We are talking about efficiency here, and not actual raw power. He could likely finish Malfuion with one single blast, even though Malfurion is so much more effective.

Originally posted by Utrigita
BECCI

Agreed Becci he isn't but higher ranking the Azshara isn't correct.

Imo if it's Xavius High Elf he isn't justified to be there, if it's Xavius Satyr he deserves a place on the list.

BT

Hence placing him where he is

The Sunwell has to be magic to cheat the the magical senses of others. And the Demonsoul imo magic too along with will power.

The day the Lich King calls forth a storm that can lay waste to the Burning Legion like Malfurion did while he was still relative unexperienced in the arts of Druidisme which was some 10.000 years ago, The Lich King can be ranked higher until then I think his place is ok based on what we know about his magical abilities.

He is a fusion between a magical being and a physical the Lich King is imo not more of one then the other.


I did some more thinking, followed by some redecorating. I was of course talking about Xavius from the point where he became Satyr and "blessed" by Sargeras:

1. Anveena
2. Malygos
3. Velen
4. Azshara
5. Medivh
6. Alexstrasza
7. Kel'Thuzad
8. Xavius
9. Malfurion
10. Lich King

Originally posted by Becci
Lich King may have had his mind expanded 10k fold, but lets face it. He was not very bright in the first place

His 10k fold would in my opinion barely get him close to Kil'jaedens intellect. You are right though, he is more powerful, but not more magically efficient. We are talking about efficiency here, and not actual raw power. He could likely finish Malfuion with one single blast, even though Malfurion is so much more effective.

well i dont know, he is still an old and fairly powerful shaman, being a shaman is intelligence enough even if he is tripped up several times he was not so bad, 10k fold is enormous however

hmm wel we will have to see, imo he is far above Kiljaeden, I mean for all Kiljaedens cunning he is seemingly constantly angry which will cost him, almost evey character who is constantly angry and threatening often lose grip on that character or that character deals a blow but still as you said efficient, by efficiency do you mean variety of powers or something?

Ner'Zhul was not bright at all. In fact, he pretty much brought shame over the shaman people He lost his shaman powers because he made one stupid misstake after the other. It did not take long before the spirits abandoned him completely.

He may exceed many, but he will never exceed Kil'Jaeden.
By efficiency, I mean both varity and reach of powers. All listed characters have made impressive things with magic. The fact that Lich King is even on the list, is because he has potentials. If Kel'Thuzad taught him the arts of necromancy, Lich King would be highly efficient. As it is right now, he has the potentials at mind and power, but not at the two combined.

Take Kil'Jaeden for instance: He is one of the smartest being in the universe and his magical powers are infinite. Despite he is smarter than Archimonde, his powers are not going the same path. Archimonde can do things Kil'Jaeden can not, while Kil'Jaeden can do things Archimonde can not. They both have the same infinite powers, but they can not use them. Kil'Jaeden is smart, but he is not good enough a learner yet to become omnipotent.


My point is: Lich King had his mind expanded. This does not mean his powers expand equally. Just because his mind expanded, does not mean he automaticly learned his full potentials.

who knows, maybe he needed to, you know....not be trapped formless in a lump of (is it still Diomand hard ice/crystal from the furthest reaches of the void in the lore?) void ice

It was plain ice. This I know due to the fact that Arthas smashed it with ease and the fact that even as a spirit could he make a crack in it


He is powerful, yes. He on the other hand is not trained. I put him on the list with the sole reason that he has potentials to climb it. For all we know, he just has expanded death knight might.

no it was definatley more than plain ice, it was special, ill have to find where i read it was from the furthest reaches of the void

or for all we know he could one hit Kiljaeden

here we are:


not just normal ice afterall

Originally posted by Burning thought
no it was definatley more than plain ice, it was special, ill have to find where i read it was from the furthest reaches of the void

or for all we know he could one hit Kiljaeden

The durability was that of ice, that is for sure. The special ice was likely in order to keep his spirit at place. The durability does not vary from ice at all.


No, he could not. You are forgetting one important thing with that theory of yours. As much as Lich King has expanded, both Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden were blessed by Sargeras in the extent of endurance. It is proven that only the most vast amounts of nature magic can even harm them (So far of course), which is something Lich King does not have. Lich King could probably not even breach the mana-shield before he would die against Kil'Jaeden.

who knows, i mean hell it was hit by a non basic item wasnt it....it was hit by frostmourne, so why it was crafted so specially is prob for diffrent reasons, but it doesnt matter what its made from.

why so? I wouldnt be surprised if he just over powered Kiljeadens mind and took it over. well i would because that would be boring......and we dont know how much neccerily they were blessed or how the new lich kings expanded mind and power as well as a true form will effect him, and no he does not have nature magic but as you said "so far" i dont think that writes off them being harmed by anything else. he prob wouldnt have to breach the mana shield, hed prob just break their spirit/energy bond with it and find more clever ways than Killy or Archi are capable of finding to beat his opponents.

Archimonde fought Malorne and won unharmed. THAT is how much their endurance was blessed with. Remember that Malorne is of nature and nature is the known vulnerable point for these guys, yet not even he could harm Archimonde.

You can not possibly think that Lich King could mentally overpower Kil'Jaeden. With what exactly? The art of the mind is a warlock feat and not that of a necromancer. Kil'Jaeden if anyone would mentally overpower the Lich King. Just because Lich King expanded 10k fold, does not mean he gain powers that divert from the powers of an actual lich.

Does it actually say nature is a known weakness somewhere? ime curious?

Hes a master of the mind ,thats common knowledge, didnt he completly overpower the minds of everyone around him in Northrend, taking the minds of the wendigo and wild creatures nearer northcrown, the only reason he had to war with the Nerubians is because they were somehow immune to mind control were they not? also what do you call the powers of a lich, a lich is simply an extremely powerful undead magic user, just because in Warcraft 3 they chose its unit powers to be ice doesnt mean thats all lich King can use.

No, but only nature damage have actually harmed them trough all the years.

Lich King tame minds trough corruption. Unless you think his corruption is more powerful than Sargeras, then there is no point having this discussion. He will have to best the corruption of Sargeras in order to tame the mind of Kil'Jaeden. Lich King convert people trough body and soul. A strong enough will-power and resistance to corruption will make it impossible for him to tame another being.

The Nerubian is both persistant and has a strong resistance to all type of attacks, including corruption.



As for the whole lich magic limit thing. Do you not take in consideration that EVERY lich in history has only had access to frost and necromancy abilities? How can you make a claim that they have more, if no lich in the history of Warcraft has shown to ever be more than frost and necromancy?

One fact I would like to add about the Lich King supposed higher level is the scene from Warcraft 3 where Archimonde removes the command over the undead from the Lich King after his power has been expanded 10k

Btw Becci agree roughly with the order now.

At this point, Arthas is probably more powerful than the Dragons.

Combined ore single aspects and which ones?

Arthas would surely not be able to take Malygos, Nozdormu or late Neltharion down.

The only one I think he would have good chance at taking down is Ysera, I see Alexstrasza giving him one hell of a fight.

Yes, but there is hope against Alexstrasza and Ysera. The three other aspects are just mad. Although in truth I think both Ysera and Alexstrasza would stand a chance.

Agreed the three others would wreck him.

Alexstrasza a better one then Ysera imo, she has always appeared as being the weakest of them.

Weakest in direct combat perhaps.

Which is what would count against the Lich king Imo

The Lichking imo would crush all dragon flight aspects except Malagos and Nozmordu

I don't see him taking on Deathwing and live to tell the tale.

all Deathwing has at his command is Earth and such is it not? not the most threatening aspect, the only time he was a massive threat imo is with Demon soul

And that wouldn't be deadly towards the Lich King who has both his feets placed on the ground?

And you realise that it toke the remaining four aspects with there full power restored to drive of Deathwing without the DemonSoul.

Like I said, "late Neltharion", aka Deathwing.

Besides, Neltharion is more than just some earth guy. He is a powerhouse of top level.

I dont think physical is the way to go with Lich King, first i doubt he can be properly killed with physical considering hes like a spirit simply in a body, then theres the fact he likely has so many diffrent protective powers. I just feel Lich King will need to be the target of large forces or high magic users who can take his spirit or drain his power

Actually he can be killed if his physical body is damaged we all know why Arthas traveled to Northren in all haste, because the Lich Kings was being weakened because of his prison being broken, now break the body and the same would imo happen to the spirit once again.

well ime not so sure, he would of hoped or chosen a more durable host, hell one of his own minions or Kelthuzard or simply a greater being than a young paladin if he was in fear of the body, since Arthas' body is hardly sturdy, so Lich King must simply have some incredibly powerful defensive shields and magics