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I would like to state this is in support of gods absolute power and his punishment of sin. If you are wanting to argue with me on creation vs evolution it will not be done here. I have posted many times in many other topics with my opinions. This is my point...I love america dearly but I think we are in a very sinful state and have been for a long time and I was wondering why we havent been judged for it like the countless countries listed in the bible. this is why I think we are yet to be judged. We have been a close allie of israel for a while now and so I think we havent had judgement passed on us because we have been aiding gods sacred nation for so long.Opinions?

Originally posted by BetrayedUnicorn
...Opinions?

I don't believe that the god of the bible is real. The judgement you are talking about reminds me of when people say that natural disasters are the actions of a god. That is my opinion.

ok pancakebunny

Originally posted by BetrayedUnicorn
I would like to state this is in support of gods absolute power and his punishment of sin. If you are wanting to argue with me on creation vs evolution it will not be done here. I have posted many times in many other topics with my opinions. This is my point...I love america dearly but I think we are in a very sinful state and have been for a long time and I was wondering why we havent been judged for it like the countless countries listed in the bible. this is why I think we are yet to be judged. We have been a close allie of israel for a while now and so I think we havent had judgement passed on us because we have been aiding gods sacred nation for so long.Opinions?

A) He just doesn't care.
B) He is a metaphorical idea meant to be understood by moderately intelligent people rather than unthinking masses who flock to charismatic, self serving preachers out of an inability to fulfill their lives
C) It has already come in the form of AIDS/ terrorism/ the prominence of people with brown hair

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
A) He just doesn't care.
B) He is a metaphorical idea meant to be understood by moderately intelligent people rather than unthinking masses who flock to charismatic, self serving preachers out of an inability to fulfill their lives
C) It has already come in the form of AIDS/ terrorism/ the prominence of people with brown hair

You are scary.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
You are scary.

I like to cover all the bases.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I like to cover all the bases.

The brown hair part cracked me up; because it was so true.

I'll co-sign everything so far except the opening post. I love that you directly state the intention: "This supports God's power and ability to punish." Quintessential Christian dogma, if you ask me.

Americans are gonna get soooo PWN3d by Allah....

Infidels!

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Americans are gonna get soooo PWN3d by Allah....

Infidels!

Originally posted by BetrayedUnicorn
I would like to state this is in support of gods absolute power and his punishment of sin. If you are wanting to argue with me on creation vs evolution it will not be done here. I have posted many times in many other topics with my opinions. This is my point...I love america dearly but I think we are in a very sinful state and have been for a long time and I was wondering why we havent been judged for it like the countless countries listed in the bible. this is why I think we are yet to be judged. We have been a close allie of israel for a while now and so I think we havent had judgement passed on us because we have been aiding gods sacred nation for so long.Opinions?

You think we're sinful? Look at Amsterdam! Horray hookers!

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
A) He just doesn't care.
B) He is a metaphorical idea meant to be understood by moderately intelligent people rather than unthinking masses who flock to charismatic, self serving preachers out of an inability to fulfill their lives
C) It has already come in the form of AIDS/ terrorism/ the prominence of people with brown hair

Well said, I'll take option B with a side order of A.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f122/blaxican_templar/GodlySupes.jpg

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f122/blaxican_templar/GodlySupes.jpg

Is raep time now?

http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/f/f9/Jehovahtotherescue.jpg

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f122/blaxican_templar/Apoc_Moticopy-1.jpg

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f122/blaxican_templar/Apoc_Moticopy-1.jpg


LOL!!!

Hm... is there ANYTHING ELSE you think the lack of judgment might be evidence for?

Originally posted by BetrayedUnicorn
I would like to state this is in support of gods absolute power and his punishment of sin. If you are wanting to argue with me on creation vs evolution it will not be done here. I have posted many times in many other topics with my opinions. This is my point...I love america dearly but I think we are in a very sinful state and have been for a long time and I was wondering why we havent been judged for it like the countless countries listed in the bible. this is why I think we are yet to be judged. We have been a close allie of israel for a while now and so I think we havent had judgement passed on us because we have been aiding gods sacred nation for so long.Opinions?

Why America? By your logic why not any other nation (or group of people)? We aren't the only ones that have sinned so wrongfully. Many others have done far worse than us. "I think we haven't had judgement passed on us because we have been aiding God's sacred nation for so long"; that post is ridiculous, in my opinion. If Jews were God's "chosen people" then by your logic, why have they been forced to endure such injustice over the years? Is it their punishment?

My overall opinion is that I disagree with you. If God existed, tell me why he should care about America so much?

So either Sodom and Gomorrah was WAY worse then the USA or God isn't real. I guess there could be a couple of other things like God used up all his power on those cities or he just doesn't care, I will go with that God isn't real.

Originally posted by Da Pittman
So either Sodom and Gomorrah was WAY worse then the USA or God isn't real. I guess there could be a couple of other things like God used up all his power on those cities or he just doesn't care, I will go with that God isn't real.

8Gpy4Y2OdzY

Originally posted by AngryManatee
8Gpy4Y2OdzY

So, has the god vengeance alert been elevated, or are we still in yellow.

Originally posted by BetrayedUnicorn
We have been a close allie of israel for a while now and so I think we havent had judgement passed on us because we have been aiding gods sacred nation for so long.Opinions?

Now, when someone is an idiot, do they know they're an idiot or does it have to be pointed out to them?

Originally posted by Devil King
Now, when someone is an idiot, do they know they're an idiot or does it have to be pointed out to them?

Thinks of several responses

Why do evangelicals in America think God is all about wrath and punishment...what happened to love?

Have they read the new testament at all?

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Why do evangelicals in America think God is all about wrath and punishment...what happened to love?

Have they read the new testament at all? I agree so much what about redemption and all the jazz?

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Why do evangelicals in America think God is all about wrath and punishment...what happened to love?

Have they read the new testament at all?

How about all the other countries that have not suffered such retribution, yet still maintain their hedonistic lifestyles? Or, could it be that no nation is burden-free when it coms to god's wrath? When one considers the true nature of god's wrath, god seems to favor the anti-christian nations over ones that claims divine preference and inspiration. But, we can all agree that we need to feed the jews, right?

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Why do evangelicals in America think God is all about wrath and punishment...what happened to love?

Have they read the new testament at all?

I've wondered the exact same thing myself.

Originally posted by BetrayedUnicorn
I would like to state this is in support of gods absolute power and his punishment of sin. If you are wanting to argue with me on creation vs evolution it will not be done here. I have posted many times in many other topics with my opinions. This is my point...I love america dearly but I think we are in a very sinful state and have been for a long time and I was wondering why we havent been judged for it like the countless countries listed in the bible. this is why I think we are yet to be judged. We have been a close allie of israel for a while now and so I think we havent had judgement passed on us because we have been aiding gods sacred nation for so long.Opinions?

America, is not now or ever has been more sinful than any other nation in the world. America was NEVER "pure". The American citizens are just catching up to the politicians, which run the country in the amount of Sin they are comfortable with.

I'm more curious about the answer to the question..,"why does God punish the innocent for the actions of the guilty?"

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
America, is not now or ever has been more sinful than any other nation in the world. America was NEVER "pure". The American citizens are just catching up to the politicians, which run the country in the amount of Sin they are comfortable with.

I'm more curious about the answer to the question..,"why does God punish the innocent for the actions of the guilty?"

Maybe no one is really innocent in the view of an omniscient creature.

israel is a ***** for the greater part.

Originally posted by BetrayedUnicorn
I would like to state this is in support of gods absolute power and his punishment of sin. If you are wanting to argue with me on creation vs evolution it will not be done here. I have posted many times in many other topics with my opinions. This is my point...I love america dearly but I think we are in a very sinful state and have been for a long time and I was wondering why we havent been judged for it like the countless countries listed in the bible. this is why I think we are yet to be judged. We have been a close allie of israel for a while now and so I think we havent had judgement passed on us because we have been aiding gods sacred nation for so long.Opinions? A few brief thoughts:

1. The United States is hardly the most sinful nation on earth; yet, like any number of other countries, their government has largely departed from God's truth. Abandoning God's biblical truth leads to judgment, and God often judges a nation by the actions of its leaders.

2. The only reason anyone (whether an individual or a national group) can survive judgment, is the grace of God. When the Lord judges a nation, He generally has three purposes in mind: First, to punish the wicked. Second, to encourage the faithful remnant. Third, to warn the onlooker. As a Canadian, I'm gazing intently at our friends to the south and thinking my country would do well to take the hint. After all, God doesn't measure morality by the size of a nation's economy or population, but by the extent to which the people fear and obey Him.

3. Is God's judgment befalling the United States? Clearly, yes. Is God's judgment befalling the United States alone? Clearly, no. Is God showing leniency to the United States because of their political/economic/military support for Israel? Possibly. On the other hand, we should not ignore the extraordinary number of Americans who have, in recent years, responded to God's grace and returned to a conservative biblical worldview. Yahweh is a wonderful Father. When the child learns the lesson, so ends the spanking.

4. This world -- every inch of it -- is under the judgment of God and has been for many centuries. "The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness...."

5. The only solution for people's sin is divine grace. Sinners need to be forgiven. The unrepentant need to face God's wrath. God has made His abundant forgiveness available to all who will receive by faith His Son the Lord Jesus Christ. As for the world itself, and all who refuse to partake of God's inexpressible mercy, destruction is coming. Thus as a Christian, it is not my goal to fix a broken nation, but to offer God's free gift of salvation to spiritually dead people.

6. In conclusion: It matters little what happens to the United States, or my own country (Canada). God alone knows His plans for this world and its nations. But it matters a great deal what happens to people. Israel's eschatological significance not withstanding, the here-and-now of kingdom ministry demands that Bible believing Christians focus their attention on preaching the Word, winning the lost, training the found, and developing a new generation of church leaders. If, having completed this task, we have the time to absorb ourselves in other pursuits, so much the better.

Originally posted by Tim Rout
Is God's judgment befalling the United States? Clearly, yes.

What makes you say that; 9/11? Colombia? Katrina?

AIDS and various other diseases kills far more people on a monthly basis than any number of catastrophes do yearly. If anything, by this unfathomably flawed logic, God hates black people.

srug

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
What makes you say that; 9/11? Colombia? Katrina? I would like to know that as well Originally posted by DigiMark007
AIDS and various other diseases kills far more people on a monthly basis than any number of catastrophes do yearly. If anything, by this unfathomably flawed logic, God hates black people.

srug And smokers

And Heath Ledger.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
AIDS and various other diseases kills far more people on a monthly basis than any number of catastrophes do yearly. If anything, by this unfathomably flawed logic, God hates black people.

srug

That's why they have the mark of Cain 313

Also he hates Mayanmar. Not the military junta, mind you, just the civilians.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
What makes you say that; 9/11? Colombia? Katrina? In fact, no. I was simply making the point that God's wrath is being revealed against all unrighteousness. The United States is not unique in their godlessness. There are many nations, including my own, whose unrighteousness equals or exceeds that of the US. Thus my other question/answer: "Is God's judgment befalling the United States alone? Clearly, no."

I am not going to get involved in this conversation (ha ha ha)! This is a theological issue (and that is not to say that all views are valid). In keeping with the Bible--the Old and New Testament--one message is revealed to man. In other words, truth is not "subjective." And for those who feel otherwise, never pay another bill again... just "think" you did (ha ha ha)! In any case, I am being humorous; for all interested, read the book entitled, "Who is afraid of the Old Testament God"?

I am reading the book right now, but--so far--it puts everything into perspective. It is definitely worth the buy. Just my 2 cents! Take care all!!

Jesus is.

You think you might buy the book?

Originally posted by ushomefree
"Who is afraid of the Old Testament God"?

Any thinking person that believes in him.

So... you are thinking of buying the book?

No. Books are the devil's hands.

I thought, idle hands were the devil's workshop?!

So it is said with reason. Come let us reason together."

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Why do evangelicals in America think God is all about wrath and punishment...what happened to love?

Have they read the new testament at all? As a conservative evangelical, I would respond in two ways:

Firstly, though we may disagree on some secondary issues, evangelicals believe the core doctrines of the Bible. The Bible teaches about the God of love, and wrath, and kindness, and jealousy, and mercy, and vengeance, and truth, and justice, and grace, and punishment, and forgiveness. The Bible -- Old Testament and New -- teaches about only one God. We take Him as He describes Himself.

Secondly, God's love is expressed through His gracious forgiveness of human sin. Mercy means nothing without the threat of punishment. Forgiveness means nothing without the actuality of consequences. As a result, it is biblically impossible to receive God's love if one does not acknowledge his moral poverty before God and repent.

Thus, as an evangelical Christian I might ask: "Why do many non-Christians in America (and elsewhere) insist on viewing God through their own subjective paradigm, instead of His revealed Word? Have they read the New Testament at all?

Originally posted by Tim Rout
Why do many non-Christians in America (and elsewhere) insist on viewing God through their own subjective paradigm, instead of His revealed Word? Have they read the New Testament at all?

You're retarded.



No seriously. Get help or something.

Symmetric Chaos-

Tim Rout is only trying to help. Really... man... we all can do without the jovial--if not rude--comments. Easy brotha.


Why don't you simply ask him a question (or something)? Why be disrespectful?

There's really no other response to a statement like that.

I'll second Sym's opinion. It's one thing to disagree with other viewpoints, but when he presents such a sheltered perspective on anything outside his sphere of belief, and to imagine that there isn't intellectual justification for other ways of thinking, his comments begin to border on delusional.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
I'll second Sym's opinion. It's one thing to disagree with other viewpoints, but when he presents such a sheltered perspective on anything outside his sphere of belief, and to imagine that there isn't intellectual justification for other ways of thinking, his comments begin to border on delusional. My point, DigiMark, is simply that our philosophical presuppositions invariably inform our perceptions and conclusions. There is no logical reason to believe that a loving God cannot also get angry.

As a Christian, I base my understanding of God on the Bible. Since the question suggested that evangelicals (like me) need to pay more attention to the book we so revere, it seemed appropriate to point out that the Bible describes many attributes of God, some of which may be unpalatable to the reader. Nevertheless, if indeed we are discussing the God of the Bible (as the questioner specified), it seems logical that we should consider the full breadth of the biblical data. I apologize if my response made this unclear.

Am I the only one who is reasonably reasoning in a quite reasonable way?

Originally posted by Tim Rout
My point, DigiMark, is simply that our philosophical presuppositions invariably inform our perceptions and conclusions. There is no logical reason to believe that a loving God cannot also get angry.

As a Christian, I base my understanding of God on the Bible. Since the question suggested that evangelicals (like me) need to pay more attention to the book we so revere, it seemed appropriate to point out that the Bible describes many attributes of God, some of which may be unpalatable to the reader. Nevertheless, if indeed we are discussing the God of the Bible (as the questioner specified), it seems logical that we should consider the full breadth of the biblical data. I apologize if my response made this unclear.

None of that has anything to do with what he said. To fail to understand how people could disagree with you about religion would require a sheltered, ignorant upbringing. Normally I'm the first to defend Theists but to seriously have trouble with the idea that someone chooses not to believe the Bible is just beyond the pale.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Any thinking person that believes in him. I'd go further.

Every thinking person that doesn't believe for a fact 100% that he doesn't exist.

Originally posted by BetrayedUnicorn
this is why I think we are yet to be judged. We have been a close allie of israel for a while now and so I think we havent had judgement passed on us because we have been aiding gods sacred nation for so long.Opinions? nice try rabbi

If god really punished sins, then Las Vegas would have been hit by a hurricane instead of New Orleans.

God is Love.

Originally posted by Mr. Love
God is Love.

Which god?

Originally posted by Tim Rout
As a conservative evangelical, I would respond in two ways:

Firstly, though we may disagree on some secondary issues, evangelicals believe the core doctrines of the Bible. The Bible teaches about the God of love, and wrath, and kindness, and jealousy, and mercy, and vengeance, and truth, and justice, and grace, and punishment, and forgiveness. The Bible -- Old Testament and New -- teaches about only one God. We take Him as He describes Himself.

Secondly, God's love is expressed through His gracious forgiveness of human sin. Mercy means nothing without the threat of punishment. Forgiveness means nothing without the actuality of consequences. As a result, it is biblically impossible to receive God's love if one does not acknowledge his moral poverty before God and repent.

Thus, as an evangelical Christian I might ask: "Why do many non-Christians in America (and elsewhere) insist on viewing God through their own subjective paradigm, instead of His revealed Word? Have they read the New Testament at all?

There is no reason at all for anyone to belittle someone for stating there opinion and views, Sym you know better, don't know why Digi is agreeing this much on allowing someone to say something like that...

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Which god?


The God who is Love.

Originally posted by Mr. Love
The God who is Love.

That did not answer my question. You are using circular logic here. So I will ask again:

Which one of the many gods are you talking about? Are you talking about the Christian god, one of the many Hindu gods or Allah?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Which god? That would be me

Originally posted by Da Pittman
That would be me

So, you are love?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
So, you are love? You are what you eat

Originally posted by Da Pittman
You are what you eat

Wow! do you know what that makes me?

http://www.littlefolkspuzzle.com/catalog/1350-30PCFLOORPUZZLE-KITTEN.JPG

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Wow! do you know what that makes me?

http://www.littlefolkspuzzle.com/catalog/1350-30PCFLOORPUZZLE-KITTEN.JPG

I personally believe the punishment has been put forth.

God has left us, left us in this place to our own devices, surely that would be the worst punishment we could receive.

Afterall, if Gods world is Just , Right, Fair and filled with Compassion and Forgiveness..
then what does a God-less World look like.

I think we already know the answer to that question, we're in one!



-2 cents-

Originally posted by Juk3n
I personally believe the punishment has been put forth.

God has left us, left us in this place to our own devices, surely that would be the worst punishment we could receive.

Afterall, if Gods world is Just , Right, Fair and filled with Compassion and Forgiveness..
then what does a God-less World look like.

I think we already know the answer to that question, we're in one!



-2 cents-

So, when times are good that mean that god is there with you, and when times are bad, that mean god has left you? That sounds like a fair weather friend to me.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
So, when times are good that mean that god is there with you, and when times are bad, that mean god has left you? That sounds like a fair weather friend to me.

Actually it's the converse of a fair weather friend.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Actually it's the converse of a fair weather friend.

Please explain.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Please explain.

A fair weather friend is with you when things are good.

His sentiment is the converse: Things are good when God is with you.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
A fair weather friend is with you when things are good.

His sentiment is the converse: Things are good when God is with you.

And I turned it on it's head on purpose. Sometimes when you flip things over, you get a different perspective.

From my point of view, things are always good or bad because of humans, and never because of a god.

Originally posted by Juk3n
I personally believe the punishment has been put forth.

God has left us, left us in this place to our own devices, surely that would be the worst punishment we could receive.

Afterall, if Gods world is Just , Right, Fair and filled with Compassion and Forgiveness..
then what does a God-less World look like.

I think we already know the answer to that question, we're in one!



-2 cents-

God hasn't left us, WE left God.

Originally posted by Kapton JAC
God hasn't left us, WE left God. if your god is the catholic god, god created humans knowing they would betray him. he had prior knowledge. no choice involved. it was going to happen. he forsaw it. and NOTHING anyone can do can change that if hes real.

if you have omniscience, free will isnt really free. because actions are determined. once they are determined you are set to do them. forever. its not probability with complete knowledge, only fact

Originally posted by chickenlover98
if your god is the catholic god, god created humans knowing they would betray him. he had prior knowledge. no choice involved. it was going to happen. he forsaw it. and NOTHING anyone can do can change that if hes real.

if you have omniscience, free will isnt really free. because actions are determined. once they are determined you are set to do them. forever. its not probability with complete knowledge, only fact

You have logical fallacy in this argument. First of all you are assuming that a choice without influence can still not be a free choice, this is logically flawed by the very definition of freedom. Second, you are limiting God's omniscience by saying that He cannot know the outcome of perfectly free choices. For every choice there are billions of tangential outcomes, God knows the actual as opposed to the tangential outcome. Think of this example: I can know that you will walk over to a bench and sit down. When you go to that bench you make a completely free choice to sit down. I happen to know the actual outcome rather than the tangential one, which means that you made a completely, influence-free, free choice. Also, even if we take this all for granted, that there is no free choice etcetera, you then have to explain why there is a Hell, sin, or evil for that matter. In Timothy 2: 3-4,
So why then does sin or damnation occur if God knows and "predestines" all outcomes, for he wants ALL to be saved.

Originally posted by Transfinitum
You have logical fallacy in this argument. First of all you are assuming that a choice without influence can still not be a free choice, this is logically flawed by the very definition of freedom. Second, you are limiting God's omniscience by saying that He cannot know the outcome of perfectly free choices. For every choice there are billions of tangential outcomes, God knows the actual as opposed to the tangential outcome. Think of this example: I can know that you will walk over to a bench and sit down. When you go to that bench you make a completely free choice to sit down. I happen to know the actual outcome rather than the tangential one, which means that you made a completely, influence-free, free choice. Also, even if we take this all for granted, that there is no free choice etcetera, you then have to explain why there is a Hell, sin, or evil for that matter. In Timothy 2: 3-4,
So why then does sin or damnation occur if God knows and "predestines" all outcomes, for he wants ALL to be saved.

the fallacy in your argument is the presumption that you can KNOW uninfluenced outcomes. you KNOW things by knowing there cause, and you know things/event in the future PERFECTLY by knowing their causes PERFECTLY. if there are NO causes/influences{as you stated} then god can NOT know. if he KNOWS it to be true, then by definition, the influences which caused the event exist to begin with. you are basing your assumption on the oppinion that human conciousness is exempt from the causal influences in their surrounding which is false to begin with. also, without INFLUENCE, there wont be much of a choice to make now would there as everything from consequences to historical context IS an influence. with the complete absence of influences, there would be nothing to choose FROM or make a choice ABOUT as things which are made a choice between are themselves influential in the choice being made. basically, without influences there is no inclination to choose anything.

as for the last part, who says there is a hell/heaven or god for that matter? scriptures are never proven accurate or even right, quite the contrary. heaven and hell have never been prove to exist. infact, the above is an argument AGAINST the very existance of these things.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
the fallacy in your argument is the presumption that you can KNOW uninfluenced outcomes. you KNOW things by knowing there cause, and you know things/event in the future PERFECTLY by knowing their causes PERFECTLY. if there are NO causes/influences{as you stated} then god can NOT know. if he KNOWS it to be true, then by definition, the influences which caused the event exist to begin with. you are basing your assumption on the oppinion that human conciousness is exempt from the causal influences in their surrounding which is false to begin with. also, without INFLUENCE, there wont be much of a choice to make now would there as everything from consequences to historical context IS an influence. with the complete absence of influences, there would be nothing to choose FROM or make a choice ABOUT as things which are made a choice between are themselves influential in the choice being made. basically, without influences there is no inclination to choose anything.

as for the last part, who says there is a hell/heaven or god for that matter? scriptures are never proven accurate or even right, quite the contrary. heaven and hell have never been prove to exist. infact, the above is an argument AGAINST the very existance of these things.

Though it isn't proven doesn't mean it isn't true. There are several things that are widly accepted that have no actual PROOF, only theroies and conjecture, and yet they are not only widly accepted but is taught as un-disputable fact.

^yes, but most of those things have sever enough consequences as the beleif in god. and none of those things{atleast in logical circles} are actually DISPROVEN like the traditional conceptions of god and scritpures are.

also, if you are talking about scientific theories like evolution etc. there is a lot of EVIDENCE pointing towards them being true and they are never taught as ultimate perfect truth either, all scientists accept that there cud be modifications in the theory, but theres no reason to beleive{and ever reason to disbelieve} that these modifications wud come from mystical beings liek god. also, all things in science are theories, not facts. but it isnt theory as used in general language, it is as near to fact as it gets{for many accepted theories} based on evidence, but is called a theory because unlike normal language and faith, science accepts that nuthing can be claimed to be knwon with 100% accuracay. what you are refrring to are HYPOTHESIS, whcih are different from THEORIES.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
the fallacy in your argument is the presumption that you can KNOW uninfluenced outcomes. you KNOW things by knowing there cause, and you know things/event in the future PERFECTLY by knowing their causes PERFECTLY. if there are NO causes/influences{as you stated} then god can NOT know. if he KNOWS it to be true, then by definition, the influences which caused the event exist to begin with. you are basing your assumption on the oppinion that human conciousness is exempt from the causal influences in their surrounding which is false to begin with. also, without INFLUENCE, there wont be much of a choice to make now would there as everything from consequences to historical context IS an influence. with the complete absence of influences, there would be nothing to choose FROM or make a choice ABOUT as things which are made a choice between are themselves influential in the choice being made. basically, without influences there is no inclination to choose anything.

as for the last part, who says there is a hell/heaven or god for that matter? scriptures are never proven accurate or even right, quite the contrary. heaven and hell have never been prove to exist. infact, the above is an argument AGAINST the very existance of these things.
It is true that human choice has its influences, but it has no influence from the omniscience of God. God has the ability, as per the definition of omniscience, to know all outcomes of all choices at all times. But these choices are free from the influence of God, and so they are completely free choices. God has the ability to know the outcomes of perfectly free choices, if He cannot, it is a false limiting of omniscience. There are influences in choices, but there is no influence from God, thus all choices are completely free to the individual (though they may be influenced by temporal factors, the individual makes a true free choice at the moment of decision).

Originally posted by chickenlover98
if your god is the catholic god, god created humans knowing they would betray him. he had prior knowledge. no choice involved. it was going to happen. he forsaw it. and NOTHING anyone can do can change that if hes real.

That is what I was responding to, and that is why I used the Bible, leonheart. When one insults the Lord, they better have something massive to make their point on. And on the fall of Adam and Eve in the garden; God allowed humans to betray Him so that free will could exist. It makes a very interesting point, God valued freedom so much, that He allowed evil and dissidence from Him.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
^yes, but most of those things have sever enough consequences as the beleif in god. and none of those things{atleast in logical circles} are actually DISPROVEN like the traditional conceptions of god and scritpures are.
>>Haha, well I guess ignorance is bliss, for the traditional conceptions of God and Scriptures are still very valid, the mere fact that no one here has "debunked" the "crazy" geocentrism thread shows this beautifully

Originally posted by leonheartmm
also, if you are talking about scientific theories like evolution etc. there is a lot of EVIDENCE pointing towards them being true and they are never taught as ultimate perfect truth either, all scientists accept that there cud be modifications in the theory, but theres no reason to beleive{and ever reason to disbelieve} that these modifications wud come from mystical beings liek god.
1. Irreducible complexity
2. Probabilities against abiogenesis
3. Lack of transitional fossils
4. A lack of ONE observed case of macroevolution
Look them up. God, or something with the qualities of Him, solves these problems beautifully, and I see no other reason than bigotry that He is shunned aside.

it has infact ULTIMATE influences from the omniscient god as he CREATED the universe to begin with and US, and bwing omniscient, he knew EXACTLY how the physical behaviour of things would turn into influeces for humand and EXACTLY how they would respond to them. if he wasnt th creater of the universe i wud ATLEAST say that it cudnt be BLAMED on him{there still wudnt be FREE will mind you} but that isnt how it is. also, outcomes which are KNOWN are by tat very definition, set in stone. the very FACT of omniscience spells doom for freedom of choice. now again, there is only ONE choice in the world, and that is the choice that will be made, and this is due to omniscience, no other CHOICES exist as one outcome is already knows. now that the argument of all influences being or not being from god is clear, lets talk about free will.
even IF god wasnt the one who CREATED the universe, and hence is exempted from RESPOSIBILITY of the choices made by humans, it still stands that IF a being, ANY being, is omniscient, there is still no FREE will. simply because the apparent choice is set in stone and humans have an illusiojn of choice. now you cant blame the omniscient BEING for this, but then again, at the same time, you cant blame the HUMANS for the things they choose, as it isnt really a choice. in either case, the existance of heaven or hell becomes ridiculous and unfair.



lol, you are respoiding to things i didnt even say. anyhow, massive points upon massive points have been made about god and few have been logically refuted. read some of JIA's old tthreadss, youll get th picture,. things werent always this slow on this site. if god was omnisicent and he was also the creator of adam and eve and eden and earth, then the betrayel of adam and eve was ENGINEERED, since god has ultimate responsibility for all that happened as a result due to his omniscience. and alas, there is no free will even in this world, as god is omnisicent.




and back at you. scriptures have a lot of proven contradictions and fallacies and the concept of god has even more so which have not been answer, least of all, the contradictiin found inside and between his qualities of omnipotenc, omniscience, omnipresence and omnibenevolance. or arent you aware of these. many people have debunked the crazy geocentrism you propose but you are too proud, too ignorant and too percistantly arrogant to admit it. only you here beleive that it hasnt been debunked which says sumthign about you.




all taken directly from christian literature, all debunked and answered to to certain extents on this forum and elsewhere in scientific circles. i am well aware of the above stated arguments, but before you get into another large and obstinate debate on the issue, you might wanna check out one of the old threads of JIA again on evolution etc. it isnt a flattering picture trans, and its even less flattering for you since the alternative proposed by christians and other relegious beleivers on the subject has a ridiculously larger number of evidences against it and is not scientific or logical in the least. but then again, im talking to a man who beleives the earth is the centre of the universe and the universe revolves around it .

A just God does not punish thousands of innocent human beings for the acts - good, bad or indifferent - of a few.

Originally posted by Storm
A just God does not punish thousands of innocent human beings for the acts - good, bad or indifferent - of a few.

Do the thousands of innocents benefit from the work of the few?

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Do the thousands of innocents benefit from the work of the few?

Yes, no, maybe.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Yes, no, maybe.

Silence Sinner!

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Silence Sinner!



Sinner?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Sinner?

Well, apparently we all are "sinners"

but there is:

sinner (born again baptist evangelical christian)

and

sinner (everyone who isnt a born again baptist evangelical christian)

Needless to say, the second lot are much worse than the first lot and are going straight to hell!

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Well, apparently we all are "sinners"

but there is:

sinner (born again baptist evangelical christian)

and

sinner (everyone who isnt a born again baptist evangelical christian)

Needless to say, the second lot are much worse than the first lot and are going straight to hell!



There is no such thing as a divine entity or god as described in the bible, therefore, sin, in the way you are using the word, is strictly a Christian religious word. This word has a totally different meaning, if any at all, in Buddhism.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
There is no such thing as a divine entity or god as described in the bible, therefore, sin, in the way you are using the word, is strictly a Christian religious word. This word has a totally different meaning, if any at all, in Buddhism.

I was taking the mick out of the self-righteous way some Christians have a tendency to damn everyone they meet to hell.

Originally posted by Storm
A just God does not punish thousands of innocent human beings for the acts - good, bad or indifferent - of a few.

Unless it's:

Funny
Helpful to many others
Accidental

Besides, God might not think of justice in the same way that we do.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
I was taking the mick out of the self-righteous way some Christians have a tendency to damn everyone they meet to hell.

Oh!

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Unless it's:

Funny
Helpful to many others
Accidental

Besides, God might not think of justice in the same way that we do.

So why did he give us distorted version of justice?

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
So why did he give us distorted version of justice?

Maybe we just developed that way. Maybe it's amusing to watch. Maybe omnipotent beings don't expect limited ones to understand morality the same way or something. Or maybe there's absolutely no reason at all.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
So why did he give us distorted version of justice? It was supposed to be a joke, but we took it literally.

doh