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DEBATE! I dare ya!

How hardly know anything about the apprentice?

Revan.
We don't know enough about the SA, plus....

Revan does rock!!

Yeah, Revan takes it.

Revan wins by giving the Apprentice a lightsaber as a gift.

It would be nice if the pro-Revan faction would take the time to provide proof to corroborate their claims and then take into consideration that the Apprentice is a relative anomaly. Perhaps, best of all, one could provide a demonstration where Revan performs a feat comparable to dragging an Imperial-class Star Destroyer out of the sky.

Originally posted by Gideon
It would be nice if the pro-Revan faction would take the time to provide proof to corroborate their claims and then take into consideration that the Apprentice is a relative anomaly. Perhaps, best of all, one could provide a demonstration where Revan performs a feat comparable to dragging an Imperial-class Star Destroyer out of the sky.


Ripping out the unknown language of the Rakata and giving them basic, should do the trick.

...

Raping someone's mind so they talk a different language is not as impressive as bringing down a Star Destroyer, imo.

Personally, I don't feel there is enough on the Secret Apprentice for us to seriously discuss.

Agreed. Most of what we have is just conjecture.

Not to mention I find it hilarious how they plan to overpower the apprentice, and still have him serve Vader.

Again, agreed.

Is the sa more powerful than vader??

Originally posted by Gideon
It would be nice if the pro-Revan faction would take the time to provide proof to corroborate their claims and then take into consideration that the Apprentice is a relative anomaly. Perhaps, best of all, one could provide a demonstration where Revan performs a feat comparable to dragging an Imperial-class Star Destroyer out of the sky.

Like I said, giving him a Lightsaber!

Originally posted by Kenobiwan
Is the sa more powerful than vader??

Fat chance. If they pull that, they will be smited.

ok he doesnt have to litterally pull a star destroyer out of the sky with sheer force. lucasarts knows that this would be TOO powerful. He probably forced the controlls, and told it to crash into the ground, needing very infantessimal ammounts of tk. Revan needs a planet destroying ability like sids. seriously, revan is shown to be underpowered when he is shown at all.

Probably did this. Maybe did that. It's all conjecture. That's the problem.

And no.. Revan doesn't need a planet detroing feat. Perhaps the reason he doesn't get one but Sids does is because Sids > Revan?

:P i prefer to think of it as Revan>Sideous, revan is just classy enough to not destroy a whole planet, and reveres life to much to excercise his absolute power.

Also, revan was meant to be the most powerful in the kotor series. If nihilus could eat a whole planet, does this mean that nihilus>revan?

I'd say that Nihilus could probably beat Revan, actually. I don't see him getting past the drain. Revan isn't a wound in the force like the Exile was, I'm pretty sure.

w/e. he still wins the outfit contest (thats revan) followed by vader, then nihilus, and then the mandalorians.

funny how nihilis is NEVER truly explained. We have no idea if he can do force drain in an instant. For all we know, he had to prepare himself for days or months to drain that planet. Does anyone have proof otherwise? if so, that doesn't put nihilis as all that powerful, cause he wouldnt' get those months in hand to hand combat. (why didn't he force drain and kill the exile's companions on board the Ravager if he could do it?)

who knows? if we find out it will be because zayne is nihilus....

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Ripping out the unknown language of the Rakata and giving them basic, should do the trick.

Perhaps in some alternate reality where fluency in antiquated languages equates to power, where C-3P0 reigns supreme over all. But otherwise, no.

well otherwise, we have no great feats to attribute to revan when we debate ;(

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
well otherwise, we have no great feats to attribute to revan when we debate ;(

other than killing yusanis,defeating sf bastilla,malak,numerious sf droids by himself, as well as 2 teranteks by himself and another with his companions, killing uthar + defeating his apprentice, killing Bandon (with some help though he could prob. do it alone) , same goes for Calo Nord, beating Juhani in single combat,called a prodigal knight, i believe he was the numeber one duelist to in his particular time, by killing a republic officer with force choke in no more than 3 seconds, then we have the force storm, and other unknown sith techniques the bane was scared to try, then he was called stronger than he ever was as the Dark Lord plus all the other sith he and his companions killed in their quest.

The secret apprentice probably surpasses Revan in combat ability. Afterall, he's supposed to be Vader's experiment, no one has used the force like this guy (the devs say). TFU isn't far away.

Originally posted by truejedi
funny how nihilis is NEVER truly explained. We have no idea if he can do force drain in an instant. For all we know, he had to prepare himself for days or months to drain that planet. Does anyone have proof otherwise? if so, that doesn't put nihilis as all that powerful, cause he wouldnt' get those months in hand to hand combat. (why didn't he force drain and kill the exile's companions on board the Ravager if he could do it?) Because he tried to do it to the Exile first and was weakened.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
then we have the force storm,

Which one? There's the ritual that the BoD performed, which by its nature requires the combined effort of multiple dark siders, and of which there's no proof that Revan even possesses the ability to act as its vessel, and adequately channel the powers of those he would be joined with. Otherwise there's the chain lightning attack, which Revan was able to use to kill several non force sensitives; hardly what you'd call a "great" feat, relatively speaking, given the beings he used the attack on don't possess the ability to defend themselves against it, and the fact that the numbers weren't described as anything too high.



Bane was unwilling to try them at the time (midway through PoD), and nothing indicates or even implies that Revan's attitude on the matter would have been any different, so what exact point are you trying to make here?

Lol Nebaris still nitpicking every post that even mentions Bane.

Originally posted by ??????????????


Which one? There's the ritual that the BoD performed, which by its nature requires the combined effort of multiple dark siders, and of which there's no proof that Revan even possesses the ability to act as its vessel, and adequately channel the powers of those he would be joined with. Otherwise there's the chain lightning attack, which Revan was able to use to kill several non force sensitives; hardly what you'd call a "great" feat, relatively speaking, given the beings he used the attack on don't possess the ability to defend themselves against it, and the fact that the numbers weren't described as anything too high.


Yes I was referring to the force storm that he used on the rakatan and no proof? He was called the hear of the force among others, he was one of the only two at the time who could activate/wield the star forge, and the fact that Bane probably had no clue what the force storm was until learning it of in Revan's holocron leads me and probably a lot of others here who don't have a mancrush on Bane that it is very probable that he could have used it, if the opportunity presented itself/required it.


More with the nitpicking, I'm just stating the facts that were said by the narrator in regards to your precious "seashells."

I think that Elite Hunter has said all that needs to be said.... Oh except that Revan also destroyed both the Korriban and Lehon temple with the help of her allies.

Also, the SA has no combat feats as of yet so Revan easily pwns there.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Lol Nebaris still nitpicking every post that even mentions Bane.

You really should try sticking to words you understand Elite Hunter, as you clearly have no idea what nitpicking actually is.

Your two points, as they were presented, could potentially imply to some that Revan was a) capable of summoning terrifyingly powerful wormholes, and was b) a good few notches above Bane in ability, both of which speak miles more than any of the numerous other feats that you listed for Revan. In comparison, in terms of how they could be interpreted, they acted -- together -- as the most significant part of your post.

It would be nitpicking if I had addressed a trivial or minute part of your argument.



Well what exactly makes you label it a "great" feat? The Rakatans in question weren't capable of defending themselves against Force attacks, and nothing suggests that there had been a particularly large number of them, nor were they described as being killed instantly, all at once, or having their entire bodies torn apart. There's literally no justification whatsoever for labelling it a "great" feat, much like pretty much every feat you listed.

Now, explain yourself, or drop the point.



I'm gonna assume you're now referring to the BoD's Force Storm ritual, and yes, you heard right, there's absolutely no proof that Revan was capable of acting as the vessel for such a ritual -- that is, being capable of absorbing the unleashed energy from multiple Sith Lords all at once into and all around his body, from multiple angles, containing it, and being able to redirect it. We simply lack the evidence that suggests that Revan was capable of such power and mastery, let alone the planetary scale storm that Bane was capable of channelling.



In other words, he was considered exceptionally powerful by a mother like figure in his life who's subject to being biased. Wonderful, really, good for RMan, we all know he was very powerful, however that doesn't automatically translate into him having the capabilities to perform displays in the Force that indicate a level of power that Revan or other such powerful beings haven't yet demonstrated to us.

You're just listing miscellaneous pieces of information, without applying context, and without substantiating your points. Get to that, or concede the point and the argument, because as it stands, you're arguing from personal belief.



Read the above. Clearly it's implied that both he and Malak were relatively powerful within their era, to be able to control the Star Forge when so many others tried to do so, and failed, but again, until you substantiate the feat, and explain how it suggests a level of power that would make him capable of such ability as I have been describing, you're still arguing from personal belief.



Firstly, there's not actually a "probably" about it; we know that he learnt it from Revan's holocron, so of course he didn't know of it prior to that point in time, however, the mere fact that Revan possessed the knowledge required in performing the ritual alone doesn't indicate that he possessed the full capabilities -- as in the Force strength and mastery -- required.

Bane was able to perform it, both because of the knowledge within Revan's holocron, and his own personal level of power. There's nothing that suggests that Revan even remotely compares in the latter area.



Well you "and probably a lot of others here" are clearly easily lead then.



Answer the question, and do it now. What exact point were you trying to make, because until you can provide evidence that suggests that Revan - unlike Bane - wasn't unwilling to perform such techniques, all you've proven is that Revan knew of techniques of which we can't say he would have been capable or willing of performing, in which case I'm gonna have to go "IRRELEVANT MISDIRECTION!!!" on your ass, as it's not even a feat, let alone a "great" one.

And the facts, you ask, were that Bane was not scared, but unwilling to perform such techniques, and that Revan, rather than definitively being able to perform such techniques, simply knew of them.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
I think that Elite Hunter has said all that needs to be said.... Oh except that Revan also destroyed both the Korriban and Lehon temple with the help of her allies.

Also, the SA has no combat feats as of yet so Revan easily pwns there.

Please stop referring to Revan as "her" and "she".
Besides, Revan sounds like a male name.

it actually sounds good as a female name too. Raven is a female name. raven is almost revan...

Originally posted by ??????????????


You really should try sticking to words you understand Elite Hunter, as you clearly have no idea what nitpicking actually is.

ad hominem
( insulting someone, rather than rebutting their arguments-- also: "
clearly have no idea what nitpicking actually is." insulting someone over the definition of nitpicking
Originally posted by ??????????????


Well what exactly makes you label it a "great" feat? The Rakatans in question weren't capable of defending themselves against Force attacks, and nothing suggests that there had been a particularly large number of them, nor were they described as being killed instantly, all at once, or having their entire bodies torn apart. There's literally no justification whatsoever for labelling it a "great" feat, much like pretty much every feat you listed.

Now, explain yourself, or drop the point.


The greater the difference between creatures, the more difficult the telepathic link becomes. Mind-melding with a race that has been separate from other life for thousands of years has to have been difficult.

Originally posted by ??????????????


I'm gonna assume you're now referring to the BoD's Force Storm ritual, and yes, you heard right, there's absolutely no proof that Revan was capable of acting as the vessel for such a ritual -- that is, being capable of absorbing the unleashed energy from multiple Sith Lords all at once into and all around his body, from multiple angles, containing it, and being able to redirect it. We simply lack the evidence that suggests that Revan was capable of such power and mastery, let alone the planetary scale storm that Bane was capable of channelling.


Revan was the most powerful force user in that time period- he was the stronger sith lord, was a prodigy of the order before he turned, and required the WHOLE Jedi counsel to mind-wipe him. Jacen Solo mindwiped Ben Skywalker (the great-grandson of the force) by himself.

Originally posted by ??????????????

In other words, he was considered exceptionally powerful by a mother like figure in his life who's subject to being biased. Wonderful, really, good for RMan, we all know he was very powerful, however that doesn't automatically translate into him having the capabilities to perform displays in the Force that indicate a level of power that Revan or other such powerful beings haven't yet demonstrated to us.


Kreia was used primarily as exposition, and while many of her statements are blatant lies, this one is probably truthful as is revealed her motivations outside the game (back story etc.) and told the exile what his purpose (within the game) would be.

You're just listing miscellaneous pieces of information, without applying context, and without substantiating your points. Get to that, or concede the point and the argument, because as it stands, you're arguing from personal belief.

Originally posted by ??????????????


Read the above. Clearly it's implied that both he and Malak were relatively powerful within their era, to be able to control the Star Forge when so many others tried to do so, and failed, but again, until you substantiate the feat, and explain how it suggests a level of power that would make him capable of such ability as I have been describing, you're still arguing from personal belief.


ad homenem

Originally posted by ??????????????


Firstly, there's not actually a "probably" about it; we know that he learnt it from Revan's holocron, so of course he didn't know of it prior to that point in time, however, the mere fact that Revan possessed the knowledge required in performing the ritual alone doesn't indicate that he possessed the full capabilities -- as in the Force strength and mastery -- required.

Bane was able to perform it, both because of the knowledge within Revan's holocron, and his own personal level of power. There's nothing that suggests that Revan even remotely compares in the latter area.


If revan was powerful enough to invent it, it seems reasonable to me to assume that he could use it. I say this cautiously though, as everyone knows what happens when you assume...


Well you "and probably a lot of others here" are clearly easily lead then.


Originally posted by ??????????????

Answer the question, and do it now. What exact point were you trying to make, because until you can provide evidence that suggests that Revan - unlike Bane - wasn't unwilling to perform such techniques, all you've proven is that Revan knew of techniques of which we can't say he would have been capable or willing of performing, in which case I'm gonna have to go "IRRELEVANT MISDIRECTION!!!" on your ass, as it's not even a feat, let alone a "great" one.

And the facts, you ask, were that Bane was not scared, but unwilling to perform such techniques, and that Revan, rather than definitively being able to perform such techniques, simply knew of them.


Ad homenem

Pwned again Noobaris..

Nebaris is right on some points. 1) The Star Forge feat is not necessarily a great feat considering that some of the greatest Sith in that era: Traya, Nihilus and Sion didn't even know about or use the Star Forge.

There are no noted Jedi/Sith under Revan except Bandon, who was quite simply unremarkable except that he was more talented than most dark jedi under Malak. What this feat proves is that Revan and Malak were stronger than the dark jedi (in their era) who tried to use the SF.

2) The Rakata were non-force sensitives and beyond the fact that he used the force, we have no idea about the magnitude of the attack.

3) Using the force to communicate with aliens (making them understand basic) is not a great feat as it relates to force power. You could call it a great display of knowledge or skill but power? Very debatable. Furthermore we see the Exile easily capable of reading Bao Dur's thoughts while Kreia could not. These things rarely have anything to do with force power.

As in this example the Exile has a force bond with Bau Dur. We also see a young Jacen Solo without great knowledge or much power in the force, communicate more easily with aliens than most jedi.

4) Revan's knowledge on Sith rituals is again not an example of power. First of all Sith rituals do not depend on the personal power of the force user. Furthermore, there's no evidence that Revan functioned as a vessel for any of these rituals.

5) Concerning Kreia's comments: we no doubt know Revan was powerful. However, it should be noted that Kreia's comments in no way describe the magnitude of Revan's power.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Pwned again Noobaris..

Ab Homenun

Originally posted by !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ab Homenun

Aww that sucks Noobaris! You got banned the instant you posted. Should we go for 45 bans? I mean we already know you're pathetic.

1. Being the heart of the force relates to power and force mastery. What the hell do you think she was talking about? His debating skills? His great looks? Everytime she brought Revan up, it had to do with his personal power and force mastery.

And again, ripping a language completely out of a species and giving them basic, is one hell of a feat.

How do you know he even looks good in the first place? :O He could be a skin head like all other sith lords

Damn thats feking hilarious, got banned the second he clicked the "post button".

Look out, Its a trap!!!!! *24 hours late*

Originally posted by Jbill311
ad hominem
( insulting someone, rather than rebutting their arguments-- also: "
clearly have no idea what nitpicking actually is." insulting someone over the definition of nitpicking


The greater the difference between creatures, the more difficult the telepathic link becomes. Mind-melding with a race that has been separate from other life for thousands of years has to have been difficult.



Revan was the most powerful force user in that time period- he was the stronger sith lord, was a prodigy of the order before he turned, and required the WHOLE Jedi counsel to mind-wipe him. Jacen Solo mindwiped Ben Skywalker (the great-grandson of the force) by himself.



Kreia was used primarily as exposition, and while many of her statements are blatant lies, this one is probably truthful as is revealed her motivations outside the game (back story etc.) and told the exile what his purpose (within the game) would be.

You're just listing miscellaneous pieces of information, without applying context, and without substantiating your points. Get to that, or concede the point and the argument, because as it stands, you're arguing from personal belief.



ad homenem



If revan was powerful enough to invent it, it seems reasonable to me to assume that he could use it. I say this cautiously though, as everyone knows what happens when you assume...


Well you "and probably a lot of others here" are clearly easily lead then.





Ad homenem
Wow thats a fantastic rebuttal honestly, your debating skills(in my opinion at least) has improved by a very large margin. You are getting pretty good

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
it actually sounds good as a female name too. Raven is a female name. raven is almost revan...

But Revan is canonically a female.

true, but they chose that name because it could sound like both; like "Pat"

ok.......... Revan is not a female!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

common knowledge, but it doesnt really impact anything either way, so why are you arguing it?

Originally posted by Ivalice
How do you know he even looks good in the first place? :O He could be a skin head like all other sith lords
Here is a hint: He must be handsome and charming enough to turn on a pretty lady called "Bastilla."

Besides, he was also good at dancing!

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Here is a hint: He must be handsome and charming enough to turn on a pretty lady called "Bastilla."

Besides, he was also good at dancing! Bah i give up! you win

Bastila would look far prettier if she got rid of that hairstyle and let it down. Good to have you back legend.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
common knowledge, but it doesnt really impact anything either way, so why are you arguing it?

"Common knowledge"? Actually, most people here know Revan is canonically stated to be a male, not a female.


The one who was canonically stated to be a female is the Jedi Exile.

Originally posted by Ivalice
Bah i give up! you win

Bastila would look far prettier if she got rid of that hairstyle and let it down. Good to have you back legend.
Thanks dude!

Yeah! I would love to see Bastilla with her hair loosened up. Man! That would be a sight!

Oh! Wait! She is already sold out to Revan!