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No prep.

Weapons are permitted.

Who wins?

Batman is already peak human like cap he lifts around 600lbs

Originally posted by golem370
Batman is already peak human like cap he lifts around 600lbs

I gave him that because of Cap's almost limitless stamina factor.

He beats Cap anyway...

Batman wins hands down

Batman imo. You know what your going to have to do right Batman/spider-man abilities vs Batman/super soilder serum lol

hes al;ready more skilled, just not as powerful, and thats not by much.

Better equipment with all the gadgets. Who can argue against him here??

Indestructible shield? They're is your argument

Originally posted by Doc. Savage
hes al;ready more skilled, just not as powerful, and thats not by much.

Better equipment with all the gadgets. Who can argue against him here??

Somebody will, trust me. This isn't the first Cap vs Batman thread I had to deal with on KMC.

if theres some already, why another?

Originally posted by Doc. Savage
if theres some already, why another?

Lol there will be more. I'll bet money that I'll be accused of wanking Batman again. It never fails.

im gonna have to say Bats wins but for no reason any bats fanboy would say. Since Cap was weak and very normal b4 he took the SSS and it amped him to a certain level. But if you take a batman which is a peak human subject and give him the same juice and it works he will end up being physically superior to Cap. I say this as long as all bat fanboys agree that baseline bats is physically inferior to cap in all ways.

As for the MA i think they are even they both know a ton and Cap can adapt to a person's attack extremely well and fast.

so yeah bats 6/10

Originally posted by Marvelknight
Lol there will be more. I'll bet money that I'll be accused of wanking Batman again. It never fails.

b4 anyone beats me your wanking batman w/e taht means and i hope it doesnt mean you are jer*ing him off...

Originally posted by Lord Feron
b4 anyone beats me your wanking batman w/e taht means and i hope it doesnt mean you are jer*ing him off...

That's what Battlehammer said to me. To tell you the truth, I have no idea what that even means.

Originally posted by golem370
Batman is already peak human like cap he lifts around 600lbs

Originally posted by golem370
Batman is already peak human like cap he lifts around 600lbs


Many are peak human. Cap is the peak of human "potential".

Its been defined as the maximum human level to even further explained as "the next step in human evolution". Batman is not that.

Originally posted by golem370
Batman is already peak human like cap he lifts around 600lbs

You mean over 800lbs.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Many are peak human. Cap is the peak of human "potential".

Its been defined as the maximum human level to even further explained as "the next step in human evolution". Batman is not that.

He is now. maybe even a little better.

Past threads have gone on for dozens of pages debating who was better in hand to hand combat. Right off the bat, it should tell you if the debate goes on for that long, that if there is any difference, it is minuscule and not worth debating. They are for all intents and purposes, equal.

The super soldier serum brings a human being, regardless of whatever previous physique, to peak human (and keeps them there). Batman has trained himself already peak human, if not nearly peak human, so the only advantage he would gain from the serum is the unlimited stamina, and a small possible boost to his muscles to if he isn't already peak human.

Without the serum, I favored Captain America slightly due to his unlimited stamina, and being able to wear down Batman over time. Now that both men have it, they are equals. I know some people don't want to hear it, but that's my opinion on that matter.

50/50 split right down the middle for both men if Batman has the Super Soldier Serum.

-Evangel94

Originally posted by Marvelknight
He is now. maybe even a little better.



Yes by this imaginary scenario he is. But I was talking about the former.

I imagine under these circumstances Batman would win the majority.

Batman trained to be perfect as perfect as he good be anyhow. A advance athlete in peak condition. But its not the same as being the peak of human potential as stated to be the next step in human evolution.


This is why Reinstein declared Steve a man unlike the world has "never" seen before.

Originally posted by golem370
Batman imo. You know what your going to have to do right Batman/spider-man abilities vs Batman/super soilder serum lol
That's a good idea. You should make it, it's your idea after all.

Originally posted by Evangel94
Past threads have gone on for dozens of pages debating who was better in hand to hand combat. Right off the bat, it should tell you if the debate goes on for that long, that if there is any difference, it is minuscule and not worth debating. They are for all intents and purposes, equal.

The super soldier serum brings a human being, regardless of whatever previous physique, to peak human (and keeps them there). Batman has trained himself already peak human, if not nearly peak human, so the only advantage he would gain from the serum is the unlimited stamina, and a small possible boost to his muscles to if he isn't already peak human.

Without the serum, I favored Captain America slightly due to his unlimited stamina, and being able to wear down Batman over time. Now that both men have it, they are equals. I know some people don't want to hear it, but that's my opinion on that matter.

50/50 split right down the middle for both men if Batman has the Super Soldier Serum.

-Evangel94

Err...Batman.

Batman is already peak human. The SSS will turn him into a superhuman, I am guessing between the class 2-5 level.

Originally posted by Evangel94
Past threads have gone on for dozens of pages debating who was better in hand to hand combat. Right off the bat, it should tell you if the debate goes on for that long, that if there is any difference, it is minuscule and not worth debating. They are for all intents and purposes, equal.

The super soldier serum brings a human being, regardless of whatever previous physique, to peak human (and keeps them there). Batman has trained himself already peak human, if not nearly peak human, so the only advantage he would gain from the serum is the unlimited stamina, and a small possible boost to his muscles to if he isn't already peak human.

Without the serum, I favored Captain America slightly due to his unlimited stamina, and being able to wear down Batman over time. Now that both men have it, they are equals. I know some people don't want to hear it, but that's my opinion on that matter.

50/50 split right down the middle for both men if Batman has the Super Soldier Serum.

-Evangel94

Hell no, it would most likely be a draw if Bats didn't have SSS.

Originally posted by Lord Feron
im gonna have to say Bats wins but for no reason any bats fanboy would say. Since Cap was weak and very normal b4 he took the SSS and it amped him to a certain level. But if you take a batman which is a peak human subject and give him the same juice and it works he will end up being physically superior to Cap. I say this as long as all bat fanboys agree that baseline bats is physically inferior to cap in all ways.

As for the MA i think they are even they both know a ton and Cap can adapt to a person's attack extremely well and fast.

so yeah bats 6/10

Anytime that they ever fought, it was a draw. Now you want people to say that Bats is inferior to Cap. Please, the only thing that Cap has that really matters. Is his stamina factor, nothing else that he has gives him the win other than he can last longer.

Batman and Cap draw, but Cap will eventually win because Batman will lose from exhaustion. - This is Batman without SSS

Batman with SSS vs. Cap would be an eternal draw, because Batman will not fatigue.

Make sense?

Originally posted by Mindset
Batman and Cap draw, but Cap will eventually win because Batman will lose from exhaustion. - This is Batman without SSS

Batman with SSS vs. Cap would be an eternal draw, because Batman will not fatigue.

Make sense?

That sounds more like you don't want to give Bats the win, to me

Originally posted by Evangel94
Past threads have gone on for dozens of pages debating who was better in hand to hand combat. Right off the bat, it should tell you if the debate goes on for that long, that if there is any difference, it is minuscule and not worth debating. They are for all intents and purposes, equal.

I'm sorry, but that's a very ignorant assertion. Any debate that goes on very long isn't worth having?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

To everyone clamoring about Batman with the SSS becoming a superhuman since it made a scrawny little think like Steve Rogers peak human, I must say; it doesn't work that way.

The SSS is not a multiplier. It does not add a certain amount of strength or speed.

It makes the subject peak human. That's it. If Spiderman were given the SSS, his physical abilities wouldn't actually change at all.

In example, many men were later given the SSS; none of whom were as scrawny or pathetic as pre-SSS Rogers. None of them, afterwards, were anything more than Captain America.

Simple enough?

Batman vs. Captain America in hand to hand - Cap, 8/10.

Batman vs. Captain America - 5/10 either way

Batman w/ SSS vs. Captain America in hand to hand - 5/10 either way

Batman w/ SSS vs. Captain America - 8/10 Batman

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Batman is already peak human. The SSS will turn him into a superhuman, I am guessing between the class 2-5 level.

LOL

Originally posted by Marvelknight
That sounds more like you don't want to give Bats the win, to me

Oh I forgot you gave Batman gadgets.

As for me not wanting to give you the win, I don't care about Batman or you, so I really don't care who wins or who you think wins.

The no weapons thing confuses me. Batman's suit itself is pretty much a weapon, I mean, the gauntlets have knives on them and the suit can take a Wonder Woman punch.

I always thought that Batman could manage to at least stalemate Captain America in a fight (without weapons or super serum that is), so with super serum my answer is obvious.

Originally posted by Soljer
It makes the subject peak human. That's it. If Spiderman were given the SSS, his physical abilities wouldn't actually change at all.
Mind you, if Cap were bitten by a radioactive spider, he would be certainly stronger than Parker, so that might not actually be true.

Case in point: Venom.

Originally posted by Zeitgeist
Mind you, if Cap were bitten by a radioactive spider, he would be certainly stronger than Parker, so that might not actually be true.

Case in point: Venom.

That's not the same thing.

SSS brings a person up to peak human potential, nothing more.

If Cap were bitten by the same spider as Peter then you're right, potentially he could be stronger, but that is not similar to what he is trying to express.

Originally posted by Zeitgeist
Mind you, if Cap were bitten by a radioactive spider, he would be certainly stronger than Parker, so that might not actually be true.

Case in point: Venom.

As mindset noted, you're comparing apples to oranges.

The spider bite is not the same thing as the SSS. One, seemingly, multiplies attributes, the other takes the subject to a pre-set level.

Originally posted by Soljer
As mindset noted, you're comparing apples to oranges.

The spider bite is not the same thing as the SSS. One, seemingly, multiplies attributes, the other takes the subject to a pre-set level. I'm not comparing the SSS to the spider bite.

I'm comparing the processes of:

Human + SSS = X2
X2 + Spiderbite = ?

To

Human + Spiderbite = Y2
Y2 + SSS = ?

We know that the former will make something far greater than X2.

The question is if the latter would make something far greater than Y2. Not knowing if the Super Soldier Serum could enhance Parker's stats regardless of timing of application means that your earlier statement is in no way indubitable.

Originally posted by Zeitgeist
I'm not comparing the SSS to the spider bite.

I'm comparing the processes of:

Human + SSS = X2
X2 + Spiderbite = ?

To

Human + Spiderbite = Y2
Y2 + SSS = ?

We know that the former will make something far greater than X2.

The question is if the latter would make something far greater than Y2. Not knowing if the Super Soldier Serum could enhance Parker's stats regardless of timing of application means that your earlier statement is in no way indubitable.

Sure we do. The stats of the individual before the application of the SSS never made a difference.

The stats of the individual before the spider-amp has made a difference.

Originally posted by Soljer
Sure we do. The stats of the individual before the application of the SSS never made a difference.

The stats of the individual before the spider-amp has made a difference. But you don't know if adding the SSS to Parker could retroactively amp the base stats and thereby amp the effect of the spider bite, or of Parker's over all physique.

I wouldn't say that he's superhuman w/SSS. What I'm saying is Batman in my opinion is a all around more complete fighter. If Cap takes on a superhuman and defeated them. He is not required to push himself as hard because is has so much to fall back on. I understand that Cap wouldn't be who he is without the serum. But there are factors that come into play in this battle. Normally, Cap would rely on his stamina to overcome Batman because that's the only way he would truly beat him. And Batman would have to push a lot harder to keep up with Cap. If you take away the SSS from Cap or give Batman the same thing. Would he no longer need to push himself as hard? Yes, But that is not in Batman's character, he would put in the same effort w/SSS as he would without. And considering all of Batman's feats, he would have push himself over his limit to even achieve most of what he does.


Originally posted by Soljer
Batman vs. Captain America in hand to hand - Cap, 8/10.

So you think Batman would lose 8 times out of 10, ridiculous. people can talk about how fast Cap can adapt all they want. Do understand that it would take more than one life time to master 127 MA styles. Batman did it in a little over ten years. His adaptability his very high. This why Cap and Batman were able match each other move for move in their fights. Batman rely on nothing but himself. Even his gadgets are a product of his grate mind. Batman would not lose 8/10. It would be Draw if anything. But w/SSS Batman takes it.

Originally posted by Mindset
Oh I forgot you gave Batman gadgets.

As for me not wanting to give you the win, I don't care about Batman or you, so I really don't care who wins or who you think wins.

Give me the win I'm not Batman and you don't have to care about me or Batman. But you will have to face facts. Cap's stamina was his trump card, not anymore. Batman is very capable of defeating him.

Batman prevails

Originally posted by Marvelknight
Give me the win I'm not Batman and you don't have to care about me or Batman. But you will have to face facts. Cap's stamina was his trump card, not anymore. Batman is very capable of defeating him.

I'm sorry, I thought you thought you were Batman so I was just going along with it.

Yes, Cap's stamina was his trump card, which would allow him to win, now that Batman's stamina is the same it would be a stalemate...this is with only hth fighting though, not weapons.

Originally posted by Marvelknight

Do understand that it would take more than one life time to master 127 MA styles. Batman did it in a little over ten years.

127 styles in ten years, or every style on Earth in six months...

Cap had already mastered every form of combat by the time he was in WWII. .

Originally posted by Soljer
127 styles in ten years, or every style on Earth in six months...

Cap had already mastered every form of combat by the time he was in WWII. .

Bull, every style on earth. I don't believe that.

Originally posted by Marvelknight
Bull, every style on earth. I don't believe that.

Canon's canon.

Originally posted by Soljer
I'm sorry, but that's a very ignorant assertion. Any debate that goes on very long isn't worth having?


Debating the difference in who is a better hand-to-hand fighter between Captain America and Batman is not worth having if you have to debate it for dozens of pages and still not come up with a clear answer. Besides, it has already been done to death. There are decades of comic history to support either character in a debate. Clearly, there is evidence to support either Captain America or Batman (it's really up to personal opinion), and even if there were a difference (I'm not saying there is), it would be minuscule.

If it comes down to debating the small differences between the characters in order to find out who would win, then right off the bat it should tell you that the characters are close enough to be practically equal. Having the overall debate itself is fine, but when people start arguing over minutia as the crux (decisive factor) of their argument on who should win is when it starts to become tired.

-Evangel94

Batman wins. More skilled, more equipment and his physical equal.

wtf why is this even a debate batman pwns the shit out of cap without sssbatman

Question:

What does the SSS do?

a) Make a human into the pinnacle of human perfection
b) Make a human into the pinnacle of THAT HUMAN'S perfection

The above are VERY different statements.

If what it does is make the person into the apogee of what a human can be, then they would both (Bats and Cap) be equal.

However, if what it does is make that human into the sheer perfection apogee of what HE OR SHE would be, then it depends on that human's makeup.

And personally i think it is the 2nd version, where it will take you to absolute perfection, but based on what YOU would be at if absolutely perfect.

Think of it this way:

The SpeedForce (equally given) should make two speedsters have the same speed (obviously ignore people like Wally who had a mainline while others only had a 'taste') .....imagine both people have a mainline to the speedforce. Both would be EQUALLY as fast, because the speedforce is not enhancing their speed .....it IS their speed. Applied equally, the two will be at the same speed.

But now, think of an Olympics 100m sprint, where you have two atheletes who both take the SAME steroid. The steroid will immediately make them faster, but what the steroid is doing is BOOSTING WHAT THEY ALREADY HAVE, meaning if that runner A is naturally faster than runner B, and both take the same quantities of steroid X at the same time, runner A will definitely outrun runner B. Both get amped, and steroid X is amping runner A the same measure as it is amping runner B, BUT runner A is naturally faster than runner B ....thus, if steroid X adds 3mph to both runners, and runner A can move at 21 mph NATURALLY while runner B can move at 19 mph naturally, what it means is now runner A moves at 24 mph while runner B moves at 22 mph.

And runner A is faster.


Thus, I'd say that the SSS would not make Bat and Cap equal, unless someone states that it is more like the speedforce rather than a really amped up steroid.

Just my thoughts

Originally posted by golem370
Batman is already peak human like cap he lifts around 600lbs

http://img21.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-31802/loc244/77c_bat1000.jpg

Originally posted by MrHeavySilence
The no weapons thing confuses me. Batman's suit itself is pretty much a weapon, I mean, the gauntlets have knives on them and the suit can take a Wonder Woman punch.

.


Thats not standard equipment.


Originally posted by Soljer
Sure we do. The stats of the individual before the application of the SSS never made a difference.

The stats of the individual before the spider-amp has made a difference.

Its been suggested that Protocide is stronger than Cap because he was stronger when he got the SSS, nothing concerete though.

Originally posted by Soljer
I'm sorry, but that's a very ignorant assertion. Any debate that goes on very long isn't worth having?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

To everyone clamoring about Batman with the SSS becoming a superhuman since it made a scrawny little think like Steve Rogers peak human, I must say; it doesn't work that way.

The SSS is not a multiplier. It does not add a certain amount of strength or speed.

It makes the subject peak human. That's it. If Spiderman were given the SSS, his physical abilities wouldn't actually change at all.

In example, many men were later given the SSS; none of whom were as scrawny or pathetic as pre-SSS Rogers. None of them, afterwards, were anything more than Captain America.

Simple enough?

Batman vs. Captain America in hand to hand - Cap, 8/10.

Batman vs. Captain America - 5/10 either way

Batman w/ SSS vs. Captain America in hand to hand - 5/10 either way

Batman w/ SSS vs. Captain America - 8/10 Batman

thanks for the info on what the SSS technically does.

Originally posted by Evangel94
Debating the difference in who is a better hand-to-hand fighter between Captain America and Batman is not worth having if you have to debate it for dozens of pages and still not come up with a clear answer. Besides, it has already been done to death. There are decades of comic history to support either character in a debate. Clearly, there is evidence to support either Captain America or Batman (it's really up to personal opinion), and even if there were a difference (I'm not saying there is), it would be minuscule.

If it comes down to debating the small differences between the characters in order to find out who would win, then right off the bat it should tell you that the characters are close enough to be practically equal. Having the overall debate itself is fine, but when people start arguing over minutia as the crux (decisive factor) of their argument on who should win is when it starts to become tired.

-Evangel94

There is a big difference between the two. Cap is suppose to be physically superior to Batman, but yet Batman is still able to match him physically, except stamina. If you give the serum to Batman, Cap would no longer be superior to Batman in anyway at all. The difference is that Batman pushes himself a lot more harder, because he always had to. Now he going to be doing the same thing even with the serum. And it would make a lot of sense for Batman to be better with the serum. Because he already had what it takes to beat Cap. He has trained a lot harder just to be able to do the same things that the serum made so easy for Cap to do. No matter how long the fight would be, Batman will out smart him in the end. That is what Batman is a lot better at. And They are not on the same level in fighting skills at all. Just like DD's senses, the Super Solider Serum compensates for any lack of fighting skill. It's the same reason why he can adapt so fast.

Originally posted by Soljer
127 styles in ten years, or every style on Earth in six months...

Cap had already mastered every form of combat by the time he was in WWII. .

Cap knew Judo, Karate, and kick boxing before WW2 and for most of his life. He was frozen in a block of ice. By the time he was found. Bruce had already became Batman.

Seems like some people disagree on this. I think your right tho.

Evangel is right this type of post has been done before and to death for I was one of the ppl to debate to no end.

Anyways... Learn fighting moves faster then many many people including batman. He went into space fought some alien martial arts and became better at it then the aliens experienced users. All in a very very very short time not taskmaster fast but pretty damn fast.

I have to say that batman has a unpredictability and unorthodox use of martial arts (seems like batman supports always use tat word is it labeled on batman or soemthing ..anyway) Cap can adapt and use his equally vast knowledge of h2h combat.

I seen the lame scan of batman handing cassadra (could be wrong( a disk with 127 martial arts teaching on it. But its not like he said "i've masters everything on this disk which is 127 different types of martial arts) Its no different then me giving someone a big dictionary and saying there are a million different words in here, please learn them. Did i say i knew all these words? no

PPl did say its written in some kind of hand book to about the number of fighting styles he knows but i don't have that info. Anway the martial arts skill on both heroes would almost be equal and if there is a difference it wont be enough to significantly change the match.

I believe this is a stalemate.

I'm not sure what batman complete arsenal is for standard equip in this fight anyone care to enlighten me?

Originally posted by Marvelknight


Cap knew Judo, Karate, and kick boxing before WW2 and for most of his life. He was frozen in a block of ice. By the time he was found. Bruce had already became Batman.

Common misconception.

He may favor those styles, but he had been stated to have mastered every form of unarmed combat long before he was ever frozen. .

Originally posted by Marvelknight
There is a big difference between the two. Cap is suppose to be physically superior to Batman, but yet Batman is still able to match him physically, except stamina. If you give the serum to Batman, Cap would no longer be superior to Batman in anyway at all. The difference is that Batman pushes himself a lot more harder, because he always had to. Now he going to be doing the same thing even with the serum. And it would make a lot of sense for Batman to be better with the serum. Because he already had what it takes to beat Cap. He has trained a lot harder just to be able to do the same things that the serum made so easy for Cap to do. No matter how long the fight would be, Batman will out smart him in the end. That is what Batman is a lot better at. And They are not on the same level in fighting skills at all. Just like DD's senses, the Super Solider Serum compensates for any lack of fighting skill. It's the same reason why he can adapt so fast.

disagree very much but i don't have time to respond maybe in the afternoon laters

Originally posted by Marvelknight
You mean over 800lbs.



He is now. maybe even a little better.

Know I heard something about Batman that before he became Bats he he was a scientist and made a serum sorta like SSS which increased his physical abilities to peak level which also said he could life 600lbs

Originally posted by golem370
Know I heard something about Batman that before he became Bats he he was a scientist and made a serum sorta like SSS which increased his physical abilities to peak level which also said he could life 600lbs

Thats a lie.

Batman held a 1000lbs roof up at one point in the comics.

He was estimated to last for, and I quote:
"A while"

That was what I tried bringing up with the picture which failed utterly as the picture did not work

Originally posted by Becci
Batman held a 1000lbs roof up at one point in the comics.

He was estimated to last for, and I quote:
"A while"

That was what I tried bringing up with the picture which failed utterly as the picture did not work

You're talking about the rubble of the collapsed building. Yeah that was a great feat to show just how strong he is.

Originally posted by Lord Feron
Originally posted by Marvelknight
There is a big difference between the two. Cap is suppose to be physically superior to Batman, but yet Batman is still able to match him physically, except stamina. If you give the serum to Batman, Cap would no longer be superior to Batman in anyway at all. The difference is that Batman pushes himself a lot more harder, because he always had to. Now he going to be doing the same thing even with the serum. And it would make a lot of sense for Batman to be better with the serum. Because he already had what it takes to beat Cap. He has trained a lot harder just to be able to do the same things that the serum made so easy for Cap to do. No matter how long the fight would be, Batman will out smart him in the end. That is what Batman is a lot better at. And They are not on the same level in fighting skills at all. Just like DD's senses, the Super Solider Serum compensates for any lack of fighting skill. It's the same reason why he can adapt so fast.

disagree very much but i don't have time to respond maybe in the afternoon laters

There is nothing to disagree with. Batman does match cap physically in terms of fighting, except stamina. And becuase Batman doesn't have the SSS he would need to push himself a lot harder. With it, he would act no different. He already has what it takes to beat Cap without it. What in gods name make you think that he can't with the serum?

Originally posted by Marvelknight
You're talking about the rubble of the collapsed building. Yeah that was a great feat to show just how strong he is.



You are probably thinking about:
http://img101.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc278&image=d54_batbeam4.jpg
or
http://img111.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc192&image=b12_baton2.jpg


I meant:
http://img21.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc244&image=77c_bat1000.jpg




Hopefully does the link work this way hmm

Originally posted by Lord Feron
I seen the lame scan of batman handing cassadra (could be wrong( a disk with 127 martial arts teaching on it. But its not like he said "i've masters everything on this disk which is 127 different types of martial arts) Its no different then me giving someone a big dictionary and saying there are a million different words in here, please learn them. Did i say i knew all these words?

Wrong. He made the disc with his own knowledge of every style on it. You don't know what you are talking about. You can't help someone master anything without being one yourself.

Originally posted by Becci


You are probably thinking about:
http://img101.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc278&image=d54_batbeam4.jpg
or
http://img111.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc192&image=b12_baton2.jpg


I meant:
http://img21.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc244&image=77c_bat1000.jpg




Hopefully does the link work this way hmm

yeah, thats pretty good too. And yeah, they work.

Batman wins.

Batman focuses his mind to achieve post human feats. Villains who disrupt his focus like Joker and Allies like Captain Marvel; Wisdom of Solomon know this and have used it against him.

Given baseline peak human status I'd hate to think what a Batman without friction would do to Cap.

Originally posted by Lord Feron

I seen the lame scan of batman handing cassadra (could be wrong( a disk with 127 martial arts teaching on it. But its not like he said "i've masters everything on this disk which is 127 different types of martial arts) Its no different then me giving someone a big dictionary and saying there are a million different words in here, please learn them. Did i say i knew all these words? no http://www.batman-of-gotham.supanet.com/Batman_JLAMember_JimLee.jpg

Originally posted by Marvelknight
There is nothing to disagree with. Batman does match cap physically in terms of fighting, except stamina. And becuase Batman doesn't have the SSS he would need to push himself a lot harder. With it, he would act no different. He already has what it takes to beat Cap without it. What in gods name make you think that he can't with the serum?

Of course there is stuff to disagree with silly, for i will not bother with this debate if i didn't disagree as much as i do with you.

The bats does not have what it takes to be Cap. With the serum he would be on even terms with cap. Yes i know you are going to disagree but please stuff saying "push himself alot harder" does this show his determination? it is not without a dobut in my mind that Cap has pushed himself constantly to fight toe to with meta humans and super villians that are far and above cap himself. As a soldier he is suppose to be the best god damn soldier ever. You think a whole contry riding on you to save them, you think he won't push hard? You think be didn't push himself even before he had the SSS.

This is my math Cap > Bates and Cap = Bates + SSS

Originally posted by Marvelknight



Cap knew Judo, Karate, and kick boxing before WW2 and for most of his life.

Please dont take the piss we already told you he mastered every martial art during WW2.

Originally posted by Marvelknight


He was frozen in a block of ice. By the time he was found. Bruce had already became Batman.

So Cap had forgotten everything. You dont actually know what stage Bruce was it but he would at least be at the beginning of his career and Cap would still have more experience.

Originally posted by Juntai
http://www.batman-of-gotham.supanet.com/Batman_JLAMember_JimLee.jpg

There it is, thanks

Keyword being "virtually" and cap on the other hand cap mastered "every" martial arts adds to my case on how cap is better then bats and with the sss i guess bats can stalemate but its only a maybe.

Without the serum Bats loses.

http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/5899/jlaavengers0207zn6.jpg

http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/4180/027avengersjla004rembrazg6.jpg
http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/7108/028avengersjla004rembraxf2.jpg

http://img43.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=dcd_batcap2c.jpg

With it he draws.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/26/51111219_e11f72dd24_o.jpg

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Without the serum Bats loses.

http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/5899/jlaavengers0207zn6.jpg

http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/4180/027avengersjla004rembrazg6.jpg
http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/7108/028avengersjla004rembraxf2.jpg

http://img43.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=dcd_batcap2c.jpg

With it he draws.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/26/51111219_e11f72dd24_o.jpg But you show him tying twice without it. And forgot to show Batman beating him in Marvel/DC while you're pulling out the Crossovers.

And Adept and Master are very different things. Not to mention that one is a written statement about the character, and the other is just a random claim from a character and when looking at the things characters constantly claim, doesn't hold the same weight.

Originally posted by Lord Feron
There it is, thanks

Keyword being "virtually" and cap on the other hand cap mastered "every" martial arts adds to my case on how cap is better then bats and with the sss i guess bats can stalemate but its only a maybe. Got a scan to prove he's mastered every form of combat?

Originally posted by Juntai
But you show him tying twice without it.

What?

Originally posted by Juntai

And forgot to show Batman beating him in Marvel/DC while you're pulling out the Crossovers.

What does that prove. It proves that Batman can beat Cap thats all, but the links above show that Cap will probably beat Batman for the majority.

Originally posted by Juntai

And Adept and Master are very different things.

Anyway that was back in WW2.


Originally posted by Juntai

Not to mention that one is a written statement about the character, and the other is just a random claim from a character and when looking at the things characters constantly claim, doesn't hold the same weight.

So you think Caps showings contradict what was said? Even if it is a random statement Cap is one of those characters who tend not to exaggerate and say what they mean so we can assume hes telling the truth.

This is just adding what Brubaker said about Batman and Cap. Brubaker as far as I know has written for both Cap and Batman.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone


http://www.comicboards.com/camb/view.php?rpl=060330214926

"Just physical exertion. While I don't think of Cap as 'super' like Spider-man or Superman, he's clearly not Batman with a shield. He's not just like a guy who works out all the time and is trained. He's been enhanced, and I wanted to show that a bit."

"See, I never understand why everyone gets so worked up about this stuff. Cap was given the Super-Soldier Serum. The first word there is SUPER. He's not superman, but clearly, he's been shown to be much faster and stronger than a well-trained athlete, many many times. One of everyone's favorite Cap appearances seems to be DD: Born Again, where he's shown running to fast that he's a breeze."

http://www.comicboards.com/camb/view.php?rpl=060418204829&q=ed%20brubaker

"I see it as he's the ultimate of human potential. Not something the modern man could ever be, but like an evolutionary next-step, basically. He's not Thor or Spiderman, but he's not Batman, either."

Which means jack shit.

Never try using writers comments.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Without the serum Bats loses.

http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/5899/jlaavengers0207zn6.jpg

http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/4180/027avengersjla004rembrazg6.jpg
http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/7108/028avengersjla004rembraxf2.jpg

http://img43.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=dcd_batcap2c.jpg

With it he draws.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/26/51111219_e11f72dd24_o.jpg Nah. Your wrong.

Originally posted by Doc. Savage
Which means jack shit.

Never try using writers comments.


Exept Bru isn't basing it on just his comment but the past books...LOL


Bru saids ultimate human. Thats why Cap's been called Perfect Man or having the strength of 10(like Slade)

Bru states the next step in human evolution.

Thats why in the min-series of Operation Rebirth SSS, Dr. Reinstein declares Cap the next step in human "evolution."

Bru knows his continuity.

wow thats pretty damn good Phantom zone. I thought this debate was gonna be long and annoying but hey you just one shotted them lol. *high five*

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Exept Bru isn't basing it on just his comment but the past books...LOL


Bru saids ultimate human. Thats why Cap's been called Perfect Man or having the strength of 10(like Slade)

Bru states the next step in human evolution.

Thats why in the min-series of Operation Rebirth SSS, Dr. Reinstein declares Cap the next step in human "evolution."

Bru knows his continuity.

Don't worry hes just a SOCK.


Originally posted by Lord Feron
wow thats pretty damn good Phantom zone. I thought this debate was gonna be long and annoying but hey you just one shotted them lol. *high five*

Lol cheers. The links are darthgoober's, the quotes from Brubaker are due to Daredevil1....not sure about the pic.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Don't worry hes just a SOCK.




Lol cheers. The links are darthgoober's, the quotes from Brubaker are due to Daredevil1. Whats a sock.

I am a sock?

Well your a FANBOY.

So were even.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Don't worry hes just a SOCK.




Lol cheers. The links are darthgoober's, the quotes from Brubaker are due to Daredevil1....not sure about the pic.



Im gonna run away and claim the credit for myself lol

Originally posted by Lord Feron
Im gonna run away and claim the credit for myself lol

Well I did edit the post but I dont think you have to mention where you got the links from every time you use it but since I was getting praise thought I figured I better say were the source is from.

they might go 50/50 with a regular batman. I don't see how he loses if he's physically amped.

Batman for the majority

Here we have batman equal in all matters SSS.
Now we are allowing weapons(as per thread starter)
there is no doubt in my mind both would win some matches.....but i also have no doubt that batman will get around the shield with gases and or throwing weapons, he could even electrocute himself and cap(cap uses chain mail still?) and we know bats has a insulated suit.............i just dont see cap wanting a win more than bats also...but this is my opinion and i say

Batman 7/10

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
So Cap had forgotten everything. You dont actually know what stage Bruce was it but he would at least be at the beginning of his career and Cap would still have more experience.

Bruce was already Batman by the time they found Cap. And your statement about Cap have more experience is absolutely stupid, how does he have more experience when he frozen for more than over a decade. And it would mean nothing anyway, because he doesn't have more experience the Ra' Al Ghul or his father. Batman defeated a lot of MA masters with more experience than him. So sorry, that's not a factor.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
What does that prove. It proves that Batman can beat Cap thats all, but the links above show that Cap will probably beat Batman for the majority.

Sorry, I'm not stupid all to fall for your nonsense. Your scans prove nothing. And do you even know what word "conceivably" means. It mean it possible not definite. Batman said the same thing Shiva. Does that mean she can beat him for the majority too? No. All you have shown is that with out the serum, Batman is capable of going toe to toe with him nothing more. The fact of the matter is that no matter how many scans you post of theirs fights. You will never see Cap doing anything close to what he has shown fighting other top tire fighter from Marvel. And most of them have some kind of enhancement. Batman has nothing but his sheer willpower, skill, and concentration.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Anyway that was back in WW2.

exactly, decades before Bruce became Batman. That's a fact, Batman is no where near Cap or Wolverine's age. Back then, Cap and Wolverine fought together.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
So you think Caps showings contradict what was said? Even if it is a random statement Cap is one of those characters who tend not to exaggerate and say what they mean so we can assume hes telling the truth.

Yes, it's complete contradiction. And if not, Batman wouldn't even be able to do what he has shown against Cap and yet Cap defeat prometheus (who at one time defeated Batman, easily) with no problem. But all he can do is stalemate Batman. What does that tell you?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
This is just adding what Brubaker said about Batman and Cap. Brubaker as far as I know has written for both Cap and Batman.

And yet their fights end in a stalemate every time except for DC/Marvel crossover. And Brubaker is right, Cap isn't nothing like Batman. Because if he was, he wouldn't need the serum at all. All it gives him over Batman, is almost limitless stamina, useless. It not even his skill that puts him over nor his agility, speed, and strength. That's a fact, Because you never see Cap over powering Batman or being too fast for him to counter or block his moves.

Originally posted by Lord Feron
wow thats pretty damn good Phantom zone. I thought this debate was gonna be long and annoying but hey you just one shotted them lol. *high five*

Sorry, this debate is far from over.....

Originally posted by Lord Feron
Of course there is stuff to disagree with silly, for i will not bother with this debate if i didn't disagree as much as i do with you.

The bats does not have what it takes to be Cap. With the serum he would be on even terms with cap.

If that was the case they would have never stalemated. You talk nonsense, And can prove that Batman has what it takes to beat him....

Batman didn't have the serum when he this...

Strength

http://img114.imageshack.us/my.php?loc=img114&image=baton25yx.jpg
http://img114.imageshack.us/my.php?loc=img114&image=baton32ll.jpg

http://img253.imageshack.us/my.php?image=asdftx3.jpg

http://img221.imageshack.us/my.php?image=asdfvb9.jpg

Agility/speed/reaction time

http://img43.imageshack.us/my.php?loc=img43&image=batwist10qh.jpg
http://img43.imageshack.us/my.php?loc=img43&image=batwist26vz.jpg
http://img43.imageshack.us/my.php?loc=img43&image=batwist36fs.jpg

http://img219.imageshack.us/my.php?image=detectivecomics577199ik.jpg

http://img9.imageshack.us/my.php?loc=img9&image=batagile63lb.jpg

http://img151.imageshack.us/my.php?image=asdfon3.jpg

http://img151.imageshack.us/my.php?image=asdfmb0.jpg

http://img257.imageshack.us/my.php?image=asdfhl8.jpg

http://img368.imageshack.us/my.php?image=asdffl2.jpg

Durability

http://img384.imageshack.us/my.php?image=asdfaa3.jpg
http://img167.imageshack.us/my.php?image=asdfmt4.jpg
http://img141.imageshack.us/my.php?image=asdfte3.jpg

http://img521.imageshack.us/my.php?image=23ph0.jpg

http://img36.imageshack.us/my.php?loc=img36&image=scan00042an.jpg
http://img36.imageshack.us/my.php?loc=img36&image=scan00052nb.jpg
http://img36.imageshack.us/my.php?loc=img36&image=scan00061zx.jpg

http://img1.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc75&image=d59ae_batbury1.jpg

http://img103.imageshack.us/my.php?loc=img103&image=batotem12hi.jpg
http://img103.imageshack.us/my.php?loc=img103&image=batotem21zt.jpg

Fighting skill

http://img219.imageshack.us/my.php?image=batmandarkvictory01page394yl.jpg
http://img219.imageshack.us/my.php?image=batmandarkvictory01page409be.jpg

http://img88.imageshack.us/my.php?image=asdfjv7.jpg
http://img88.imageshack.us/my.php?image=asdfyq0.jpg
http://img142.imageshack.us/my.php?image=asdfcb2.jpg

http://img356.imageshack.us/my.php?image=asdfiv2.jpg
http://img90.imageshack.us/my.php?image=asdfcv2.jpg

http://img140.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc288&image=67204_batdimak.jpg

Here we see a young Batman defeat Haim in a hand to hand contest by blocking the hungry cobra death strike a move that only 7 people in the world know how defend against.

http://img11.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc268&image=216_bathaim6.jpg
http://img46.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc44&image=795_bathaim7.jpg
http://img21.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc11&image=31c_bathaim8.jpg
http://img16.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc276&image=115_bathaim9.jpg

http://img246.imageshack.us/my.php?image=asdfea0.jpg
http://img358.imageshack.us/my.php?image=asdfug1.jpg

http://img267.imageshack.us/my.php?image=asdfdv5.jpg

http://img267.imageshack.us/my.php?image=asdfjk7.jpg
http://img267.imageshack.us/my.php?image=asdfxf8.jpg
http://img404.imageshack.us/my.php?image=asdfom5.jpg

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Superman/pic015.jpg

http://img510.imageshack.us/my.php?image=asdfye8.jpg
http://img357.imageshack.us/my.php?image=asdfvl0.jpg

http://img5.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc299&image=d8a_batpalm.jpg

Batman faces the leader of an Elite Commando charged with taking Gotham vigilantes out. Said leader is good, described by Bats as an "expert in hand to hand combat that hits like a truck", but the Dark Knight still ends up manhandling him (Batman: Outlaws #3)

http://img204.imageshack.us/my.php?image=batoutlaw337gm2.jpg
http://img208.imageshack.us/my.php?image=batoutlaw338he9.jpg
http://img204.imageshack.us/my.php?image=batoutlaw339qg6.jpg
http://img178.imageshack.us/my.php?image=batoutlaw342vj7.jpg
http://img169.imageshack.us/my.php?image=batoutlaw344gw0.jpg
http://img246.imageshack.us/my.php?image=batoutlaw345uz2.jpg

Stalemates Bronze Tiger until he's taken down by a traquilizer dart. Bronze Tiger is recongized as one of the premier martial artist on earth he's responsible for training the legendary martial artist Richard Dragon. (Detective Comics #485)

http://img7.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc155&image=d6a_batiger1.jpg
http://img44.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc167&image=e18_batiger2.jpg
http://img14.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc90&image=1b4_batiger3.jpg
http://img40.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc151&image=7c3_batiger4.jpg
http://img23.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc185&image=3bf_batiger5.jpg

Weapons skills

http://img64.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sreflexesep6.jpg

http://img114.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img114&image=batmark57ty.jpg

http://img114.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img114&image=batmark66sv.jpg

http://img155.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img155&image=batmark74sg.jpg
http://img155.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img155&image=batmark89ww.jpg

http://img155.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img155&image=batmark98ms.jpg

http://img155.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img155&image=batmark119sa.jpg

http://img155.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img155&image=batmark103jx.jpg

http://img28.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img28&image=batmark146ho.jpg

Batman without the serum is very capable doing everything similar to Cap's feats. And any battle of Cap with DD, Spider-Man, Black Panther, Wolverine or anyone else posted in a defense to my scans, will prove nothing at all. That fact is that, in Batman and Cap battles, Cap never defeated him or had the upper hand. Batman with the serum is very capable of defeating Cap, hands down.

Originally posted by Lord Feron
There it is, thanks

Keyword being "virtually" and cap on the other hand cap mastered "every" martial arts adds to my case on how cap is better then bats and with the sss i guess bats can stalemate but its only a maybe.

don't talk nonsense Cap Hasn't mastered Wakanda martial arts

I guest this debate is over, Batman ftw

Originally posted by Marvelknight


Sorry, I'm not stupid all to fall for your nonsense. Your scans prove nothing. And do you even know what word "conceivably" means. It mean it possible not definite.

No please use some common sense obvoulsy the writers are trying to say that Batman will lose to Cap eventually. Heres what the writer had to say about that incident.

Originally posted by brainchild81


Kurt wrote:
To my eye, that's about as close as Batman can come to admitting defeat out loud. But to each his own. Anyone wants to think Superman just got in a lucky shot, or Batman was lying ... well, these are stories, and they happen in between the printed page and the audience's minds. So it goes.



Unfortunately I cant find the actual quote and im going to try and get it from Silent Master I think ive actually seen the quote before but now its not working.

So there you have it. Brubaker has written for Batman and Cap and says Cap is superior and Kurt the guy who wrote JLA vs Avenegers said that Cap was superior.

Without SSS pure H2H Batman loses.
With SSS pure H2H its a draw
with SSS and weapons Batman wins.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
No please use some common sense obvoulsy the writers are trying to say that Batman will lose to Cap eventually. Heres what the writer had to say about that incident.

My common sense is just fine. Just because you have different opinion doesn't change the meaning the word "conceivably". Common sense and a dictionary would tell you that. And common sense would also tell you that Batman would defeat him h2h or otherwise with the SSS. Because he stalemates him without it, as seen in all of their fights. It's very sad that you can't admit that Cap can and would be defeated by Batman, as if he is unbeatable. So by your logic you must think that Cap is better than Bronze Tiger, Richard Dragon, King Snake, Cain, Shiva and Karate Kid (who Batman has done more than hold his own against). Batman wins here, hands down. And in h2h he wins also, all he ever needed was time in first place.

im not gonna bother cutting and pasting (just aint my style) your stuff marvelknight im just gonna write normally and hopefully i can convey to you what i am saying.

You talk of batman experience and vast knowledge and then I say cap learns fast and he to has lots of experience then you say experience doesnt matter. Becuase batman has beaten lots of people with moire experience then him experience argument can be thrown out the window i rather it not but you seem to have abandon it.

Cap learns fast and meaning his experience in a shorter amount of period is equal to what a person say like batman despite his genius level the SSS has advanced caps mind to be capable of this.

As for your accomplishment of batman and his ability to fight people with enhancements and/or meta humans in other words. CAp has also fought people that he should not have a chance with or people who have vast powers and enhacement because he to has the unshakeable willpower strength and determination. His strength and speed should not have taken on iron man or hulk (not saying he beat them but he went toe to toe with people stronger faster and pretty over all enhanced.

So based on a fight that you acknowledge that cap was able to beat prometheus when batman couldnt and yet they stalemate. You have to say that the fight between cap and prometheus is BS and that there is no way for cap to beat someone bats can't... sounds a lil unfair.

I think Bats might get the advantage with weapons with SSS maybe 6/10 but not for the reasons you are stating for why cap would lose tho. I seldomly agree with some of your reasons why bats might win.


in the scan it said he was adept at all ma so don't argue with me man its plain as day


It is possible that cap is better at some things that bats is not and bats is better at some things cap is not, this would be a logical cause.

You should refrain from thinking cap is seperate from SSS. Argueing about cap without the sss and comparing him to bats is a unreasonable. Its like saying okay hulk plus gamma radiation vs superman. Like wtf its assumed that gamma radiation is a given with hulk i mean without it he just be banner fighting superman. So cap is very much like Bats why else would people debate about them for so long why else would writers write awesome fights about them they are so similar that that is why we are talking about them because they are just so close.

THe SSS does more for cap then just physically it makes his mind function at a higher level. Stamina is not useless and i also don't think its the only thing seperating the 2 heroes. With stamina I can work out for ever with stamina I would be able to never fatigue you know how amazing that would be in ironman races or marathons. Have ever been in combat. Fighting for 20 mins is takes alot of exertion and stamina. Without stamina your muscles would cramp up and get exhausted and we wont be able to do anything. Yeah i would say stamina is pretty damn useful.

I think Bats can beat Cap. With his equipment and the injection of the SSS. But without the SSS, cap would beat bats in any fight with exception of giving bats prep. MAny writers agree that Cap is BAt's superior.

We seem to all agree on one thing Bats+equipment+SSS > Cap.

before all this continues and this goes fro everyone try and avoid condescending language i lets keep it clean it makes the debate far more enjoyable.

Originally posted by Lord Feron


We seem to all agree on one thing Bats+equipment+SSS > Cap.


Yes.

Originally posted by Lord Feron
im not gonna bother cutting and pasting (just aint my style) your stuff marvelknight im just gonna write normally and hopefully i can convey to you what i am saying.

You talk of batman experience and vast knowledge and then I say cap learns fast and he to has lots of experience then you say experience doesnt matter. Becuase batman has beaten lots of people with moire experience then him experience argument can be thrown out the window i rather it not but you seem to have abandon it.

Cap learns fast and meaning his experience in a shorter amount of period is equal to what a person say like batman despite his genius level the SSS has advanced caps mind to be capable of this.

As for your accomplishment of batman and his ability to fight people with enhancements and/or meta humans in other words. CAp has also fought people that he should not have a chance with or people who have vast powers and enhacement because he to has the unshakeable willpower strength and determination. His strength and speed should not have taken on iron man or hulk (not saying he beat them but he went toe to toe with people stronger faster and pretty over all enhanced.

So based on a fight that you acknowledge that cap was able to beat prometheus when batman couldnt and yet they stalemate. You have to say that the fight between cap and prometheus is BS and that there is no way for cap to beat someone bats can't... sounds a lil unfair.

I think Bats might get the advantage with weapons with SSS maybe 6/10 but not for the reasons you are stating for why cap would lose tho. I seldomly agree with some of your reasons why bats might win.


in the scan it said he was adept at all ma so don't argue with me man its plain as day


It is possible that cap is better at some things that bats is not and bats is better at some things cap is not, this would be a logical cause.

You should refrain from thinking cap is seperate from SSS. Argueing about cap without the sss and comparing him to bats is a unreasonable. Its like saying okay hulk plus gamma radiation vs superman. Like wtf its assumed that gamma radiation is a given with hulk i mean without it he just be banner fighting superman. So cap is very much like Bats why else would people debate about them for so long why else would writers write awesome fights about them they are so similar that that is why we are talking about them because they are just so close.

THe SSS does more for cap then just physically it makes his mind function at a higher level. Stamina is not useless and i also don't think its the only thing seperating the 2 heroes. With stamina I can work out for ever with stamina I would be able to never fatigue you know how amazing that would be in ironman races or marathons. Have ever been in combat. Fighting for 20 mins is takes alot of exertion and stamina. Without stamina your muscles would cramp up and get exhausted and we wont be able to do anything. Yeah i would say stamina is pretty damn useful.

I think Bats can beat Cap. With his equipment and the injection of the SSS. But without the SSS, cap would beat bats in any fight with exception of giving bats prep. MAny writers agree that Cap is BAt's superior.

We seem to all agree on one thing Bats+equipment+SSS > Cap.

before all this continues and this goes fro everyone try and avoid condescending language i lets keep it clean it makes the debate far more enjoyable.

Writers, you, or anyone else can talk about how superior Cap is all you want. The fact is that all of their fights end in "STALEMATE", without the serum. How many times has Batman heard that from someone? I'm physically superior, I'm more experienced, I'm faster, I'm stronger, and they still get their ass handed to them. Aqua Man is physically superior to Bat's, more so than Cap. That didn't stop him from getting his ass whipped, did it. And when has Cap ever made a god bleed?

I believe what writers say hold much weight in many debates. They should be very knowledgeable of the comic character they are writing about.

Cap would not say all that jazz against Bats because that isnt his character to brag about how much better he is, because he makes shi* happen.

You comparing how great Batman is over cap and yet you keep on saying they stalemate. So for every thing you say or try to prove cap is automatically just as good and can make the same exact task work.

Like i said before Bats has come qualitites that he is good and and so does Cap.

C'mon you think a man even as great as batman is should make a god bleed (pis) ? ANyway Cap has also fought super powered villians before who were vastly superior to him but yet he wins to!

Do we agree with said calculation? Batman + equipment +SSS > Cap That is the thread topic and that is what we should debate about. It should not lead to a debate with Bat vs Cap w/ standard equipment. I already did that look it up its quite lengthy.

IF you don't agree with said math then this debate should continue.

Originally posted by Lord Feron
I believe what writers say hold much weight in many debates. They should be very knowledgeable of the comic character they are writing about.

Cap would not say all that jazz against Bats because that isnt his character to brag about how much better he is, because he makes shi* happen.

You comparing how great Batman is over cap and yet you keep on saying they stalemate. So for every thing you say or try to prove cap is automatically just as good and can make the same exact task work.

Like i said before Bats has come qualitites that he is good and and so does Cap.

C'mon you think a man even as great as batman is should make a god bleed (pis) ? ANyway Cap has also fought super powered villians before who were vastly superior to him but yet he wins to!

Do we agree with said calculation? Batman + equipment +SSS > Cap That is the thread topic and that is what we should debate about. It should not lead to a debate with Bat vs Cap w/ standard equipment. I already did that look it up its quite lengthy.

IF you don't agree with said math then this debate should continue.

I see you still can't answer my Question. All I get is pis, oh that's great debating skills. And in-spite of all the writer's and Cap's comments about how much better he is compare Batman. He wasn't skilled enough to end the battle earlier before Batman got tired. That is because Batman is too good for Cap to do so and thus, he must wait (if Batman doesn't get the drop on him before hand) for Batman to tire for him to have a chance of beating him. And that's in a h2h situation without weapons. With the serum Batman w/or without weapons can defeat him.

So you don't believe in my math because by continue this debate you don't think Bats+Equipment+SSS > Cap. Are you saying this???? you are the person not answering me! I think i brought this up many times already.

So you think its well within a man's ability to punch a skyfatehr say in the face and make him bleed. Idk what incident you are talking about but hell sure a normal human being as mighty as a human being can be should not be able to punch a god and im talking odin level and make him bleed, i mean if you believe that shi* is a routine thing that batman does and no BS is involved then im am in trouble. Im in trouble because for someone to believe such a ludicrus notion is beyond me. I thought i already said the BS feats that should not be within the reach of batman are canon or something because all chracters have feats that seem to be out of rea ch or over the top but we can use the exception as the rule!

I'm sure you think the bat kick is standard to or how batman takes punches from superman and then people claim that Batman can take superman level punches lol.

I digress. PLease one more time i will ask you...THe thread says

" Batman w/Super Solider Serum vs. Captain America

No prep.

Weapons are permitted.

Who wins?"

I say yes Batman with the SSS and the Weapons will beat Cap.

Answer that, because we arent arguing whati think you are trying to argue "Bats+SSS>Cap" strictly h2h no equipment, no weapons (Sheild, batsuit, chainmail, etc). This is not what we are debating about.

Originally posted by Lord Feron
So you don't believe in my math because by continue this debate you don't think Bats+Equipment+SSS > Cap. Are you saying this???? you are the person not answering me! I think i brought this up many times already.

So you think its well within a man's ability to punch a skyfatehr say in the face and make him bleed. Idk what incident you are talking about but hell sure a normal human being as mighty as a human being can be should not be able to punch a god and im talking odin level and make him bleed, i mean if you believe that shi* is a routine thing that batman does and no BS is involved then im am in trouble. Im in trouble because for someone to believe such a ludicrus notion is beyond me. I thought i already said the BS feats that should not be within the reach of batman are canon or something because all chracters have feats that seem to be out of rea ch or over the top but we can use the exception as the rule!

I'm sure you think the bat kick is standard to or how batman takes punches from superman and then people claim that Batman can take superman level punches lol.

I digress. PLease one more time i will ask you...THe thread says

" Batman w/Super Solider Serum vs. Captain America

No prep.

Weapons are permitted.

Who wins?"

I say yes Batman with the SSS and the Weapons will beat Cap.

Answer that, because we arent arguing whati think you are trying to argue "Bats+SSS>Cap" strictly h2h no equipment, no weapons (Sheild, batsuit, chainmail, etc). This is not what we are debating about.

Yes I do, as if you even have to ask me in the first place. Because I think he would even without the serum. You just can't admit that Cap supposed superiority over Batman is BS and that he really can't defeat Bats, if that was the case. He wouldn't need to wait for him to tire himself to do so. Why not end the battle early? Because he can't. You can't admit that Batman to too dam good for him to beat him out right. For someone who is so superior, Why would he even need to wait, as if he's battling a meta human? Answer that .

Originally posted by Marvelknight
Yes I do, as if you even have to ask me in the first place. Because I think he would even without the serum. You just can't admit that Cap supposed superiority over Batman is BS and that he really can't defeat Bats, if that was the case. He wouldn't need to wait for him to tire himself to do so. Why not end the battle early? Because he can't. You can't admit that Batman to too dam good for him to beat him out right. For someone who is so superior, Why would he even need to wait, as if he's battling a meta human? Answer that .

Brilliant post mate.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Brilliant post mate.

Originally posted by Marvelknight
Yes I do, as if you even have to ask me in the first place. Because I think he would even without the serum. You just can't admit that Cap supposed superiority over Batman is BS and that he really can't defeat Bats, if that was the case. He wouldn't need to wait for him to tire himself to do so. Why not end the battle early? Because he can't. You can't admit that Batman to too dam good for him to beat him out right. For someone who is so superior, Why would he even need to wait, as if he's battling a meta human? Answer that .

Looks like you want to argue Bat + equipment > Cap + equipment

WE have shown proof oh what cap is capable, we have shown writers who write for both characters acknoledge that cap is bat's superior, we have shown the experience angle and agrued that and to that end, they seem to be no major difference between the two. And we would posts scans of fight but you have said in the past no matter what we post you don't care, which isnt fair thats pretty much like shutting your ears and saying lalalalala.

If the SSS did not offer any advantage over a human being then whats big deal about the SSS anyway. If it doesn't give you any advancements but only makes you a fine human specimen then SSS would actually do nothing for batman because you said he is already peak human. If u believe that cap has no superior attributes to batman then I guess Bats would be no better then Cap mean that it would be a everlasting stalemate. This is what i have concluded using your thought process and position. This is by no means a reflection of my beliefs.

I can't admit something that I don't think is true!

How do you get off at saying bats is too damn good that like me saying "no way cap is way to good for bats to beat cap" its not a good way to debate. You are telling me that cap is in no way superior to bats in any form !!! (rubbish)

Yes Bruce Wayne has acheived the next step in evolution of man by training alot and working out religiously please just..just don't. JUst nonsense.

He doesn't need to wait it just that batman is good enough to stave off defeat for a while. Eventually bats won't be able to take it anymore and he will be defeated. yes stamina could be a contributing factor to the fight but its not the only thing. If it was the only thing Bats would be a talentless loser who happen to have unlimited stamina quite easily.

I suggest you take what you can get which is me admiting that bat + Equipment + SSS > cap because that all your gonna get and thats all you need considering the thread topic has been debated and decided. continue in another posts but i don't feel like debating this forever when we already agreed on a judgment.

Originally posted by Lord Feron
WE have shown proof oh what cap is capable, we have shown writers who write for both characters acknoledge that cap is bat's superior, we have shown the experience angle and agrued that and to that end, they seem to be no major difference between the two.

If there is no "major" difference, why mention that Cap is superior. You're contradicting yourself. And the writers opinion's contradict what happens on panel.

Originally posted by Lord Feron
And we would posts scans of fight but you have said in the past no matter what we post you don't care, which isnt fair that's pretty much like shutting your ears and saying lalalalala.

It's not that I don't care. The fact is that Cap and Batman have had fights already, any scans of Cap fighting someone else, only proves just how much batter Batman is compared to Cap's other opponents. Since he has not done anything but stalemate Bats. His other fights don't change what happens in his fights with Batman.

Originally posted by Lord Feron
If the SSS did not offer any advantage over a human being then whats big deal about the SSS anyway. If it doesn't give you any advancements but only makes you a fine human specimen then SSS would actually do nothing for batman because you said he is already peak human.

What's sad is that Cap is superior, but when you compared what he does to other Marvel street-levelers and what he has shown fighting Bats. His physical superiority, isn't really that big of a factor that most people think it is. That fact that Batman could stalemate him with all of Cap advantages plus his fighting skills. Leads me to believe that with serum (which give him an almost near limitless stamina) he would defeat him.

Originally posted by Lord Feron
How do you get off at saying bats is too damn good that like me saying "no way cap is way to good for bats to beat cap" its not a good way to debate. You are telling me that cap is in no way superior to bats in any form !!! (rubbish)

Because he dose a lot better against other top tier fighter from Marvel, some with enhancements and powers that Batman does not possess. So he should have no problem taking down a human with no enhancements or powers, right?

Originally posted by Lord Feron
Yes Bruce Wayne has acheived the next step in evolution of man by training alot and working out religiously please just..just don't. JUst nonsense.

And yet he stalemates someone who is "the next step in evolution of man".

Originally posted by Lord Feron
He doesn't need to wait it just that batman is good enough to stave off defeat for a while. Eventually bats won't be able to take it anymore and he will be defeated.

Give credit when it's due. And You mean that Batman is good to be defeat by "the next step in evolution of man" too easily.

Originally posted by Lord Feron
yes stamina could be a contributing factor to the fight but its not the only thing. If it was the only thing Bats would be a talentless loser who happen to have unlimited stamina quite easily.

Another contradicting as you have already said before ....

Originally posted by Lord Feron
they seem to be no major difference between the two.

And about Bats being a talentless loser who happen to have unlimited stamina. That could be said about a man who has shown he his skills fighting DD (who has superhuman senses and reflexes), Spider-Man (who is by far more superior than Cap or Bats), and Wolverine (who has a HF and Adamantium-laced skeletal structure with retractable claws) and doing very well against them. But all he can do is stalemate a human who he is "superior" to.

Originally posted by Lord Feron
I suggest you take what you can get which is me admiting that bat + Equipment + SSS > cap because that all your gonna get and that's all you need considering the thread topic has been debated and decided.

What I get is great pleasure form your inability to admit that Batman is capable of beating h2h w/o the serum. And in that regard you no argument. Because I've proved your inability to debate or face facts. You have been completely owned.

Even with all those feats you post to prove that Cap is superior. He is still only capable of stalemating Batman.

Originally posted by Marvelknight
Even with all those feats you post to prove that Cap is superior. He is still only capable of stalemating Batman.
Bat acknowledged Cap's likelihood of winning based solely on skill(since he never actually saw Cap's enhanced physicality at work) so that's what the "stalemate"(as you call it) was based on, the difference between their relative strength/speed/durability was never touched on in the encounter.

Don't get me wrong I think that Bat's can split an even 5/10 with Cap under normal circumstances but that's because of Batman's more versatile equipment, not his ability to match Cap physically(which he can't do).

Originally posted by darthgoober
Bat acknowledged Cap's likelihood of winning based solely on skill(since he never actually saw Cap's enhanced physicality at work) so that's what the "stalemate"(as you call it) was based on, the difference between their relative strength/speed/durability was never touched on in the encounter.

Don't get me wrong I think that Bat's can split an even 5/10 with Cap under normal circumstances but that's because of Batman's more versatile equipment, not his ability to match Cap physically(which he can't do).

So do you think Batman can win this with the SS serum + weapons ?

Originally posted by Faceman
So do you think Batman can win this with the SS serum + weapons ?
Sure. Bat's and Cap are on the same level skill wise(with any difference being too minuscule to matter) and Bats has a much more diverse arsenal at his disposal. With Cap's level of physical ability dodging Cap's shield and countering with something nasty from his utility belt before the shield returns shouldn't be that difficult. I pretty much agree with Soljer's assessment.

Cap vs Bats= 5/10 either way
Cap vs Bat's (H2H)= Cap 8/10
Cap vs Bats w/SSS= Bats 8/10
Cap vs Bats w/SSS (H2H)= 5/10 either way

Originally posted by darthgoober
Sure. Bat's and Cap are on the same level skill wise(with any difference being to minuscule to matter) and has a much more diverse arsenal at his disposal. With Cap's level of physical ability dodging Cap's shield and countering with something nasty from his utility belt before the shield returns shouldn't be that difficult. I pretty much agree with Soljer's assessment.

Cap vs Bats= 5/10 either way
Cap vs Bat's (H2H)= Cap 8/10
Cap vs Bats w/SSS= Bats 8/10
Cap vs Bats w/SSS (H2H)= 5/10 either way

How could anyone disagree with that.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Bat acknowledged Cap's likelihood of winning based solely on skill(since he never actually saw Cap's enhanced physicality at work) so that's what the "stalemate"(as you call it) was based on, the difference between their relative strength/speed/durability was never touched on in the encounter.

Don't get me wrong I think that Bat's can split an even 5/10 with Cap under normal circumstances but that's because of Batman's more versatile equipment, not his ability to match Cap physically(which he can't do).

I hope you know and understand that Batman's versatility doesn't just stop at his gadgets and weapons. And we both know that they can go for a long time, fighting each other. Their battle in the DC/Marvel crossover, was a draw through out most of it and they were fighting for hours. Though their battle may have been fan voted, it is still more than possible that it would at least go down that way except for the end. Because I believe that Cap's stamina would eventually out last Batman's. I think it's fair to say that it would "possibly" take Batman much longer than his stamina can last to beat Cap. And that, in-spite of Cap's "physical superiority" he isn't capable of beating Batman at his best (full of energy and far from fatigued).

Originally posted by Marvelknight
I hope you know and understand that Batman's versatility doesn't just stop at his gadgets and weapons. And we both know that they can go for a long time, fighting each other. Their battle in the DC/Marvel crossover, was a draw through out most of it and they were fighting for hours. Though their battle may have been fan voted, it is still more than possible that it would at least go down that way except for the end. Because I believe that Cap's stamina would eventually out last Batman's. I think it's fair to say that it would "possibly" take Batman much longer than his stamina can last to beat Cap. And that, in-spite of Cap's "physical superiority" he isn't capable of beating Batman at his best (full of energy and far from fatigued).
I fail to see your point. My only issue was your saying that Batman is Cap's physical equal except for endurance(because he's not). I've already acknowledged that Batman's gadgets make up for that difference though which is why I say they each win 5/10 fights under normal circumstances.

Originally posted by darthgoober
I fail to see your point. My only issue was your saying that Batman is Cap's physical equal except for endurance(because he's not). I've already acknowledged that Batman's gadgets make up for that difference though which is why I say they each win 5/10 fights under normal circumstances.

I'm talking about their h2h skills as well, with out weapons. Because it also possible that Cap would be at some seperated from his shield, even under normal circumstances. And Cap's supposed superioirity is not a factor, only their staminas.

Originally posted by Marvelknight
I'm talking about their h2h skills as well, with out weapons. Because it also possible that Cap would be at some seperated from his shield, even under normal circumstances. And Cap's supposed superioirity is not a factor, only their staminas.
But I've also acknowledged that they're about equal in H2H skill as well. That's why I omitted the scans you posted in regards to Batman's fighting skills and only took issue with the statements regarding the two's relative physical ability. The only reason Cap takes a H2H fight between the two is because he's stronger, faster, more durable, and doesn't tire nearly as fast.

And yes being stronger, faster, and more durable DOES factor into it.

Originally posted by darthgoober
But I've also acknowledged that they're about equal in H2H skill as well. That's why I omitted the scans you posted in regards to Batman's fighting skills and only took issue with the statements regarding the two's relative physical ability. The only reason Cap takes a H2H fight between the two is because he's stronger, faster, more durable, and doesn't tire nearly as fast.

And yes being stronger, faster, and more durable DOES factor into it.

No, it's because he doesn't tire. He can out last Batman, not over power him nor will his speed, agility,and reflexes overwhelm Batman. That has already been proven in the scans I've posted. And most of all, he will not out fight Batman or not think him

Originally posted by Marvelknight
No, it's because he doesn't tire. He can out last Batman, not over power him nor will his speed, agility,and reflexes overwhelm Batman. That has already been proven in the scans I've posted.
You honestly think that the scans you posted of Batman's physical feats are equal to the physical feats of Cap's that I posted?

Again you seem to be forgetting, when Batman acknowledged Cap's ability to beat him after an extended fight he was judging by skill alone, he had no idea that Cap's body doesn't produce lactic acids.

Originally posted by darthgoober
You honestly think that the scans you posted of Batman's physical feats are equal to the physical feats of Cap's that I posted?

Again you seem to be forgetting, when Batman acknowledged Cap's ability to beat him after an extended fight he was judging by skill alone, he had no idea that Cap's body doesn't produce lactic acids.

Has it ever been seen in any of their fights, that Cap is over powering Batman in any way? Has it ever been seen, that Cap 's speed, agility, and reflexes were too overwhelming for Batman? The only thing that can't hold up his Batman's stamina. Batman felt same way about Lady Shiva too, and he defeated her.

Originally posted by Marvelknight
Has it ever been seen in any of their fights that Cap is over powering in anyway?
You mean their ONLY fight right(since there's only one that's canon)? Of course that wasn't seen because Batman acknowledged Cap winning based solely off Cap's skill before he even saw what Cap was capable of physically. But in the same arc he DID take down Prometheus w/Batman's fighting skills fairly easily.

Originally posted by Marvelknight
Has it ever been seen that Cap 's speed, agility, and reflexes were too overwhelming for Batman? The only thing that can't hold up his Batman's stamina.
Originally posted by darthgoober
You honestly think that the scans you posted of Batman's physical feats are equal to the physical feats of Cap's that I posted?

Originally posted by darthgoober
You mean their ONLY fight right(since there's only one that's canon)? Of course that wasn't seen because Batman acknowledged Cap winning based solely off Cap's skill before he even saw what Cap was capable of physically. But in the same arc he DID take down Prometheus w/Batman's fighting skills fairly easily.

And yet he didn't defeat the originator of thoses skills, easily. Regardless of what Batman's opinion is (seeing as how he felt the same way about Lady Shiva), their fight never came to an end. And seeing how it was more difficult fighting Batman than it was Prometheus. There is no real way of saying for sure that Cap would have defeated Batman. Because there were other matters at hand, and Batman's goal was not to fight Cap. Even in the face of a very difficult fight ahead of him, Batman never gives up if his goal is to stop you.

Originally posted by Marvelknight
And yet he didn't defeat the originator of thoses skills, easily. Regardless of what Batman's opinion is (seeing as how he felt the same way about Lady Shiva), their fight never came to an end. And seeing how it was more difficult fighting Batman than it was Prometheus. There is no real way of saying for sure that Cap would have defeated Batman. Because there were other matters at hand, and Batman's goal was not to fight Cap. Even in the face of a very difficult fight ahead of him, Batman never gives up if his goal is to stop you.
Your right we never saw what would have happened and Batman could have been wrong... so Batman's statement about the fight taking a long time doesn't mean that it would(it would probably last about as long as the fight between Cap and Prometheus if it really went down). But if you remember, they joined forces after a small fencing bout(rather than engage in an actual fight) so that accounts for the differences between the his match up with Batman and his beat down of Prometheus.

Also...
Originally posted by darthgoober
You honestly think that the scans you posted of Batman's physical feats are equal to the physical feats of Cap's that I posted?

Originally posted by darthgoober
Your right we never saw what would have happened and Batman could have been wrong... so Batman's statement about the fight taking a long time doesn't mean that it would(it would probably last about as long as the fight between Cap and Prometheus if it really went down). But if you remember, they joined forces after a small fencing bout(rather than engage in an actual fight) so that accounts for the differences between the his match up with Batman and his beat down of Prometheus.

Also...

Originally posted by darthgoober
You honestly think that the scans you posted of Batman's physical feats are equal to the physical feats of Cap's that I posted?

Yes, most of them.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Your right we never saw what would have happened and Batman could have been wrong... so Batman's statement about the fight taking a long time doesn't mean that it would(it would probably last about as long as the fight between Cap and Prometheus if it really went down). But if you remember, they joined forces after a small fencing bout(rather than engage in an actual fight) so that accounts for the differences between the his match up with Batman and his beat down of Prometheus.



Not being bad but I think it obvoulsy was trying to indicate that Cap would win eventually due to his superior stats but in terms of skill they were equal, thats one of the reaons why Bats said it would take a very long time. He was just saying politely "if we fight im going to lose in the end" and thats what the writer said.

Originally posted by darthgoober
But in the same arc he DID take down Prometheus w/Batman's fighting skills fairly easily.

apples and oranges. Prometheus did not have intel on Marvel Fighting Styles in his databanks.

Whenever Prometheus has defeated a top tier MA he's downloaded their style or its nearest approximation beforehand

Prometheus ripping Shiva means that already he has a percentage of Batman's ability. In many instances They graduated at the same schools.

Cap was an anomaly for Prometheus who is only as good as his databanks. Faced with a threat originating outside his reality his software is simply not adaptive or responsive enough to make him a credible threat.

Originally posted by shiv
apples and oranges. Prometheus did not have intel on Marvel Fighting Styles in his databanks.



Something tells me that there would be not be a vast difference. I would assume that there isnt a big difference between kickboxing in the MU and DC.

Originally posted by darthgoober
You mean their ONLY fight right(since there's only one that's canon)? Of course that wasn't seen because Batman acknowledged Cap winning based solely off Cap's skill before he even saw what Cap was capable of physically. But in the same arc he DID take down Prometheus w/Batman's fighting skills fairly easily. Doesn't Taskmaster have Cap's skills?

Because Batman leveled him in JLA/Avengers too.


Beating Prometheus or Taskmaster doesn't equate to beating the originals however.


However I agree with most of what you've said, until you implied beating Prometheus is like beating Batman, when it's not at all. iirc, even Green Arrow and Alfed the butler have downed Prometheus to date.

Originally posted by Juntai
Doesn't Taskmaster have Cap's skills?

Hes not enhanced though. We also dont know what fightign abilites he was using at the time, he doesnt always use Caps.


Originally posted by Juntai

However I agree with most of what you've said, until you implied beating Prometheus is like beating Batman, when it's not at all. iirc, even Green Arrow and Alfed the butler have downed Prometheus to date.

Was Promotheus using Batmans fighting abilties? Something tells me Alfred would have to use something to beat Promo.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Something tells me that there would be not be a vast difference.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Something tells me Alfred would have to use something to beat Promo.

Your source is Non Canon.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Wait you're not really trying to say that Bat's is Cap's physical equal in everything but endurance are you...

Strength

Snapping chains


http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/6431/46tx9.jpg



What title/number is that???

Bats has this in the bag.

5/5

Considering that Protocide took an incomplete versione of Erskine's SS Formula and is rate as able to lift 1 Ton, just being a soldier in good condition, maybe above the average one, Batman who is already peak human, will surely be enhanced to a slightly superhuman level going through the whole enhancing process.Considering he and Cap are evenly matched, the serum will give the edge to the Dark Knight.