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99.99% truth with .001% lie is still a lie!
This is what the Christian religion has a little truth and lots of lies.
Like Christmas & Easter sunday worship and mother Mary.
Lies, is what this Satan inspired religion is based on.

Read about and of the Christian holidays on line.
Find out where this lies came from.
Remember NO LIE IS OF THE TRUTH!


Okieshowedem

Over/under for the first Christian to take this thread seriously and respond sincerely is being set at 17.

I'm calling the under, barring spam to spite my prediction.

Wow, it took me three reads and i'm STILL not entirely sure what this thread is about.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Wow, it took me three reads and i'm STILL not entirely sure what this thread is about.

It's about like Christmas and Easter and the mother Mary. Come on dude, get with the program.

Originally posted by Okieshowedem
99.99% truth with .001% lie is still a lie!
This is what the Christian religion has a little truth and lots of lies.
Like Christmas & Easter sunday worship and mother Mary.
Lies, is what this Satan inspired religion is based on.

Read about and of the Christian holidays on line.
Find out where this lies came from.
Remember NO LIE IS OF THE TRUTH!


Okieshowedem

When you rise upon the morrow blood will flow like rivers from your eyes.

Originally posted by Okieshowedem
99.99% truth with .001% lie is still a lie!
This is what the Christian religion has a little truth and lots of lies.
Like Christmas & Easter sunday worship and mother Mary.
Lies, is what this Satan inspired religion is based on.

Read about and of the Christian holidays on line.
Find out where this lies came from.
Remember NO LIE IS OF THE TRUTH!


Okieshowedem

* that's Catholicism, dude... that's not Christianity...

* for all folks here saying that Catholicism = Christianity, here are big examples... given by mr.okieshowedem: Christmas, Easter and Mary-worship...

* we have a basis in Christianity -> the Bible... there is no Christmas in the Bible, no Easter and especially no Mary-worship...

* so, why is there Christmas, Easter and Mary-worship? simple... it's not Christianity... it was invented by Catholicism...

Originally posted by peejayd
* that's Catholicism, dude... that's not Christianity...

* for all folks here saying that Catholicism = Christianity, here are big examples... given by mr.okieshowedem: Christmas, Easter and Mary-worship...

* we have a basis in Christianity -> the Bible... there is no Christmas in the Bible, no Easter and especially no Mary-worship...

* so, why is there Christmas, Easter and Mary-worship? simple... it's not Christianity... it was invented by Catholicism...

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Over/under for the first Christian to take this thread seriously and respond sincerely is being set at post 17.

I'm calling the under, barring spam to spite my prediction.

Originally posted by Okieshowedem
99.99% truth with .001% lie is still a lie!
This is what the Christian religion has a little truth and lots of lies.
Like Christmas & Easter sunday worship and mother Mary.
Lies, is what this Satan inspired religion is based on.

Read about and of the Christian holidays on line.
Find out where this lies came from.
Remember NO LIE IS OF THE TRUTH!


Okieshowedem

However, Satan is part of the Christian mythology. Therefore the idea that Christianity is "Satan inspired", is a paradox. If Christianity is a lie, inspired by Satan, then so is the idea of Satan, a lie.

Originally posted by peejayd
* that's Catholicism, dude... that's not Christianity...

* for all folks here saying that Catholicism = Christianity, here are big examples... given by mr.okieshowedem: Christmas, Easter and Mary-worship...

* we have a basis in Christianity -> the Bible... there is no Christmas in the Bible, no Easter and especially no Mary-worship...

* so, why is there Christmas, Easter and Mary-worship? simple... it's not Christianity... it was invented by Catholicism...

Catholics are Christian.

Satan is from the OT.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Satan is from the OT.

Isn't Satan also in the NT?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Isn't Satan also in the NT?

Yes, but he is established in the OT. So there is no paradox as Christians did not create the idea of Satan.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Yes, but he is established in the OT. So there is no paradox as Christians did not create the idea of Satan.

I don't think that really matters. I assumed that the thread starter was talking about the modern interpretation of the terms "Satan" and "Christianity", or in other words, Satan and Jesus. If Jesus is the opposite of Satan, then how could Jesus be Satan?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Yes, but he is established in the OT. So there is no paradox as Christians did not create the idea of Satan.
They created the modern conception of Satan as a tempter and enemy of God.

Originally posted by Okieshowedem
Remember NO LIE IS OF THE TRUTH!

Untrue; most lies are based in truth.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Satan is from the OT.

I don't understand what the Star Wars Original Trilogy has to do with this.

(Yoda Talk) Everything!

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Catholics are Christian.

* you are blinded by your own belief... the fact that Christmas, Easter and Mary-worship is not in the Bible, that obviously proves the huge difference of Christianity and Catholicism...

Originally posted by King Kandy
They created the modern conception of Satan as a tempter and enemy of God.

* when and where did Satan become otherwise?

Originally posted by Okieshowedem
99.99% truth with .001% lie is still a lie!
This is what the Christian religion has a little truth and lots of lies.
Like Christmas & Easter sunday worship and mother Mary.
Lies, is what this Satan inspired religion is based on.

Read about and of the Christian holidays on line.
Find out where this lies came from.
Remember NO LIE IS OF THE TRUTH!


Okieshowedem
Fail.

Originally posted by peejayd
* you are blinded by your own belief... the fact that Christmas, Easter and Mary-worship is not in the Bible, that obviously proves the huge difference of Christianity and Catholicism... ...

I did not say the Protestant and Catholics were not different. However, they are both part of Christianity.

Chris·ti·an·i·ty (krsch-n-t, krst-)
n.
1. The Christian religion, founded on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2. Christians as a group; Christendom.
3. The state or fact of being a Christian.
4. pl. Chris·ti·an·i·ties A particular form or sect of the Christian religion: the Christianities of antiquity.

I think that maybe you are the one blinded by your beliefs.

My Christian religion doesn't celebrate Christmas nor Easter, and Mary is not glorified.

So ha.

Then it's not Christian...

Originally posted by chithappens
Then it's not Christian...

Why?

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
My Christian religion doesn't celebrate Christmas nor Easter, and Mary is not glorified.

So ha.

I should've quoted this

Originally posted by peejayd
* when and where did Satan become otherwise?

Try the whole ****ing Book of Job.

Originally posted by chithappens
Then it's not Christian...

erm... yeah it is.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I did not say the Protestant and Catholics were not different. However, they are both part of Christianity.

Chris·ti·an·i·ty (krsch-n-t, krst-)
n.
1. The Christian religion, founded on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2. Christians as a group; Christendom.
3. The state or fact of being a Christian.
4. pl. Chris·ti·an·i·ties A particular form or sect of the Christian religion: the Christianities of antiquity.

I think that maybe you are the one blinded by your beliefs.

* qualify it, did Catholicism founded on the life and teachings of Jesus? stop generalizing... you're doing that because you are anti-Christianity... you're barking on the wrong tree... the "christians" you think they are, were really Catholics...

* just answer the question directly: does the Bible teach Christmas, Easter and Mary-worship?

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
My Christian religion doesn't celebrate Christmas nor Easter, and Mary is not glorified.

So ha.

* then it's not Catholic, so ha, tell it to Shakyamunison...

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Try the whole ****ing Book of Job.

* so Satan is not a tempter and an enemy of God in the book of Job,

Originally posted by peejayd
then it's not Catholic, so ha, tell it to Shakyamunison...


I never said it was Catholic...

Shit. Thank god I'm not a Catholic.

Originally posted by peejayd
* qualify it, did Catholicism founded on the life and teachings of Jesus? stop generalizing... you're doing that because you are anti-Christianity... you're barking on the wrong tree... the "christians" you think they are, were really Catholics...

* just answer the question directly: does the Bible teach Christmas, Easter and Mary-worship?



* then it's not Catholic, so ha, tell it to Shakyamunison...



* so Satan is not a tempter and an enemy of God in the book of Job,

Which bible? Just because you wish to call Catholics not Christians does not mean they they are not Christian. Any person who follows the teachings of Jesus is my definition a Christian. That includes Catholics.

Let me guess, you are a Protestant, is that correct? If so, then you should keep in mind that Protestants came from the Catholics. Before the reformation, everyone was a Catholic.

There are a lot of things that Christians believe that are not in the bible, like the Rapture.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Any person who follows the teachings of Jesus is my definition a Christian.


This is correct.

The idea of Satan didn't come from Christianity. It came from Hebrew.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
The idea of Satan didn't come from Christianity. It came from Hebrew.

Isn't Christianity just Hebrew part 2?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Isn't Christianity just Hebrew part 2?

Guess that makes Islam part III.

God is a movie director. Can't wait to see the sequels to Hinduism and Buddhism....should be good.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Guess that makes Islam part III.

God is a movie director. Can't wait to see the sequels to Hinduism and Buddhism....should be good.

Or it will destroy the world. *cue evil laugh*

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Guess that makes Islam part III.

God is a movie director. Can't wait to see the sequels to Hinduism and Buddhism....should be good.

Actually, they'd be about 9th or 10th. Other pagan traditions, parallel, before, or after the Hebrew texts, had many of the same motifs, notably a Satan-figure who was routinely lord of the dead or underworld, and eventually began to play the antithesis of hero figures.

But speaking of sequels to eastern religions:
http://www.qwantz.com/archive/000966.html

...sign me up!

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
My Christian religion doesn't celebrate Christmas nor Easter, and Mary is not glorified.

So ha. you one of them jehovas?

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Actually, they'd be about 9th or 10th. Other pagan traditions, parallel, before, or after the Hebrew texts, had many of the same motifs, notably a Satan-figure who was routinely lord of the dead or underworld, and eventually began to play the antithesis of hero figures.

The only place I recall Satan as a lord of the dead is in the Inferno.

They wouldn't really be 9th or 10th. The same exact deity is explicitly credited in Judaism, Christianity and Islam. While others are similar they are never said to be the god of Abraham. The continuity is not shared by the others until their followers are seen to make the claim (or god clears up his terrible continuity mess)

Originally posted by peejayd
* so Satan is not a tempter and an enemy of God in the book of Job,

He went and got permission from God . . .

Satan is an opponent of human frailty not of God.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
The only place I recall Satan as a lord of the dead is in the Inferno.

They wouldn't really be 9th or 10th. The same exact deity is explicitly credited in Judaism, Christianity and Islam. While others are similar they are never said to be the god of Abraham. The continuity is not shared by the others until their followers are seen to make the claim (or god clears up his terrible continuity mess)

If we're talking about beings specifically named Satan, then sure. But Egyptian, Babylonian, and others I'm forgetting going all the way back to Zoroastrianism (and likely tribal religions prior to that) all have analogues to the Christian devil, even if their names are different. 9th or 10th might have been an overstatement, but the point is that very little in Christian dogma is an original mythological invention.

Originally posted by red g jacks
you one of them jehovas?



Yep. I'd prefer if you just call me a JW, though.

Originally posted by peejayd
so Satan is not a tempter and an enemy of God in the book of Job,
He is not. God ALLOWED him to torment Job, in fact Satan did it with God's complete approval.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
If we're talking about beings specifically named Satan, then sure. But Egyptian, Babylonian, and others I'm forgetting going all the way back to Zoroastrianism (and likely tribal religions prior to that) all have analogues to the Christian devil, even if their names are different. 9th or 10th might have been an overstatement, but the point is that very little in Christian dogma is an original mythological invention.
All false "gods" are manifestations of the Devil.
Of course they are similar, for they are one in the same.

Why then is there only one deity or so in each religion that is similar to him?

Originally posted by King Kandy
Why then is there only one deity or so in each religion that is similar to him?
The Devil can take many false forms that seem righteous, but in reality are one in the same. True, in some cases the Devil need not stray much from his true being to fit the part, but in other cases he can seem the exact opposite of what he really is. Also, not all false "gods" are Satan incarnate, but can also be other demons from Hell, corrupting the innocent with false and unholy worship.

Then how is their alleged similarity proof of their being the same being, if you admit he is usually not similar to his true nature? Your initial point is flawed.

Originally posted by King Kandy
He is not. God ALLOWED him to torment Job, in fact Satan did it with God's complete approval.

* true, but that is to prove to Satan that eventhough Job has nothing, he (Job) will not abandon God...

My point is that in Job, Satan is not an enemy of God; he only does what God tells him.

* nope... God allowed Satan to do almost anything to Job except taking Job's life... God only allowed Satan, God did not tell Satan what to do...

Originally posted by peejayd
* nope... God allowed Satan to do almost anything to Job except taking Job's life... God only allowed Satan, God did not tell Satan what to do...

So, god was a hands off manager. That would mean that Satan worked for god.


Good thing that none of this stuff is real.

Originally posted by peejayd
* qualify it, did Catholicism founded on the life and teachings of Jesus? stop generalizing... you're doing that because you are anti-Christianity... you're barking on the wrong tree... the "christians" you think they are, were really Catholics...

Oh, so all early Christians were not really "Christians" because they were Catholics?

Originally posted by peejayd
* just answer the question directly: does the Bible teach Christmas, Easter and Mary-worship?

No. It also doesn't teach elitism and unfaltering ignorance.

Originally posted by peejayd
* nope... God allowed Satan to do almost anything to Job except taking Job's life... God only allowed Satan, God did not tell Satan what to do...
Right... Satan only will do what God leaves open for him to do. He will never cross the line or oppose God, he does only the things God wants done.

Originally posted by RocasAtoll
No. It also doesn't teach elitism and unfaltering ignorance.

*highfive*

Upon reviewing this thread, specifically, posts (discussions) between you and peejayd, it was apparent, that the two of you failed to provide Scriptural passages to substantiate your opinions. Instead, a tug-of-war match commenced, and resolution--at best, mutual understanding--was not achieved. It is none of my business (and perhaps I am out of line stating so?), but the views presented by the two of you were absolutely lame. In short, you were not communicating! The both of you spoke of God (including Satan); if not self-imposed philosophy, where are you getting you views from? If it is Scripture, in fact, let it be known, and provide the passage(s)--from whatever religious text.

Originally posted by ushomefree
In short, you were not communicating!

Irony.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Irony. aint it a *****?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
So, god was a hands off manager. That would mean that Satan worked for god.

Good thing that none of this stuff is real.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Right... Satan only will do what God leaves open for him to do. He will never cross the line or oppose God, he does only the things God wants done.

* Satan did oppose God... we are talking about the book of Job... but you're pulling to subject and generalizing it...

Originally posted by RocasAtoll
Oh, so all early Christians were not really "Christians" because they were Catholics?

Originally posted by RocasAtoll
No. It also doesn't teach elitism and unfaltering ignorance.

* take the best example... Catholics have Christmas, Easter and Mary-worship, while the Christianity in the Bible does not... do the math, and please do it correctly...

If God opposed Satan in Job he wouldn't just allow him to go off and torture people. God flat out told Satan it was okay to do it. If he wasn't his boss, he was at least an enabler.

Originally posted by King Kandy
If God opposed Satan in Job he wouldn't just allow him to go off and torture people. God flat out told Satan it was okay to do it. If he wasn't his boss, he was at least an enabler. if godcreated everything, he created satan. and he woulda known that he woulda betrayed him. so gods a sadist.

Yeah well in this case God actually said "yeah sure go and have fun as long as you don't kill anyone. It's all good. Actually, kill as many people as you want as long as they aren't Job."

Originally posted by chickenlover98
if godcreated everything, he created satan. and he woulda known that he woulda betrayed him. so gods a sadist.

No, he's an Type I psychopath. A sadist would get a sexual thrill from the torture, God is rarely referenced as having a strong emotional reaction.

He never has strong emotional reactions? He seems to overreact all the time to me...

Originally posted by King Kandy
He never has strong emotional reactions? He seems to overreact all the time to me...

I didn't say never and overreacting isn't always an emotional reaction especially when done through a proxy.

Originally posted by King Kandy
If God opposed Satan in Job he wouldn't just allow him to go off and torture people. God flat out told Satan it was okay to do it. If he wasn't his boss, he was at least an enabler.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Yeah well in this case God actually said "yeah sure go and have fun as long as you don't kill anyone. It's all good. Actually, kill as many people as you want as long as they aren't Job."

* this only happened in Job's case, and no one else... do not generalize...

Originally posted by chickenlover98
if godcreated everything, he created satan. and he woulda known that he woulda betrayed him. so gods a sadist.

* true, God created everything... true, He created a beautiful angel, and this angel became ambitious and wants to be in equality with God... and no, God did not know Satan would betray Him, because God does not know everything... when some people do evil things, it did not even came into God's mind...

Originally posted by peejayd
* this only happened in Job's case, and no one else... do not generalize...



* true, God created everything... true, He created a beautiful angel, and this angel became ambitious and wants to be in equality with God... and no, God did not know Satan would betray Him, because God does not know everything... when some people do evil things, it did not even came into God's mind...

How do you know...

Why are you so convinced that you're right, when the only evidence of your 'faith' is a book conveniently written by the followers of said faith.

Just because YOU believe job this and job that doesn't lend any creditbility to it or that we have to believe in it.

* because of the Bible... i'm not trying to convince or force you to believe what i believe... i'm just participating in a debate forum and sharing my belief according to the Bible with other people like you...

* yes, i choose to believe in the Bible, that is my faith...

Originally posted by peejayd
* this only happened in Job's case, and no one else... do not generalize...
This conversation was ABOUT Job. I said Satan was never a rebel against God until the new testament. Someone brought up Job. I explained why it was not so.

Good for you then, but why do you feel the need to defend you faith, When it does you no or your faith personally any harm if others don't believe and explain why they don't.

It may seem i'm having a go at you i'd just like to say i'm not i'm just curious why the religious majority always feel scared or intimated just because some decide not to believe and justify their reasons.

Originally posted by GGS
Good for you then, but why do you feel the need to defend you faith, When it does you no or your faith personally any harm if others don't believe and explain why they don't.

It may seem i'm having a go at you i'd just like to say i'm not i'm just curious why the religious majority always feel scared or intimated just because some decide not to believe and justify their reasons.

religion discussion forum?

The question i posed is apart of the discussion as i said i'm not having an arguement i'm trying to understand something.

Originally posted by King Kandy
This conversation was ABOUT Job. I said Satan was never a rebel against God until the new testament. Someone brought up Job. I explained why it was not so.

* Satan is a rebel since the beginning of man... remember how he deceived Eve in the garden of Eden?

Originally posted by GGS
Good for you then, but why do you feel the need to defend you faith, When it does you no or your faith personally any harm if others don't believe and explain why they don't.

It may seem i'm having a go at you i'd just like to say i'm not i'm just curious why the religious majority always feel scared or intimated just because some decide not to believe and justify their reasons.

* yeah, sometimes i feel the need to defend my faith but basically, i'm just trying to share and clarify things which are supposed to be... your point well taken...

Originally posted by peejayd
* Satan is a rebel since the beginning of man... remember how he deceived Eve in the garden of Eden?
Where does it state in the old testament/torah that the Snake is Satan?

"Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?"
Genesis 3:1

* the serpent in Genesis was never named in the Old Testament...

"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve in his craftiness, your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity and the purity that is toward Christ."
II Corinthians 11:3

* it was confirmed that the serpent is the one that beguiled/deceived Eve in the garden of Eden...

* and the question in the first book of the Bible was answered in the last one:

"And the great dragon was cast down, the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world; he was cast down to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him."
Revelation 12:9

Originally posted by Okieshowedem
99.99% truth with .001% lie is still a lie!
This is what the Christian religion has a little truth and lots of lies.
Like Christmas & Easter sunday worship and mother Mary.
Lies, is what this Satan inspired religion is based on.

Read about and of the Christian holidays on line.
Find out where this lies came from.
Remember NO LIE IS OF THE TRUTH!


Okieshowedem

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Originally posted by peejayd

* take the best example... Catholics have Christmas, Easter and Mary-worship, while the Christianity in the Bible does not... do the math, and please do it correctly...

Catholics DO NOT worship Mary. The very fact you believe that shows you cannot speak on Catholic dogma since you neglect to actually learn it.

Christmas is a representation of Christ's birth and Easter is his death (Which are both in the Bible the last time I checked).

Originally posted by peejayd
"Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?"
Genesis 3:1

* the serpent in Genesis was never named in the Old Testament...

"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve in his craftiness, your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity and the purity that is toward Christ."
II Corinthians 11:3

* it was confirmed that the serpent is the one that beguiled/deceived Eve in the garden of Eden...

* and the question in the first book of the Bible was answered in the last one:

"And the great dragon was cast down, the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world; he was cast down to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him."
Revelation 12:9
Okay so you admit that prior to the new testament Satan was never seen as an enemy to God?

errrr, im confused, how does the word "satan" enter into the direct translation of a gospel when infact the word was adapted for lucifer's name after the advent of islam and it describing the devil as the shaitan, and the church adapting it as it considered the muslim view disgusting and hence the name fitting for the perceived enemy of the world{the lightbringer}.

Originally posted by RocasAtoll
Catholics DO NOT worship Mary. The very fact you believe that shows you cannot speak on Catholic dogma since you neglect to actually learn it.

Christmas is a representation of Christ's birth and Easter is his death (Which are both in the Bible the last time I checked).
Actually Easter is a celebration of Christ's resurrection. Good Friday commemorates His death on the cross.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
errrr, im confused, how does the word "satan" enter into the direct translation of a gospel when infact the word was adapted for lucifer's name after the advent of islam and it describing the devil as the shaitan, and the church adapting it as it considered the muslim view disgusting and hence the name fitting for the perceived enemy of the world{the lightbringer}.
Good sir, Satan means "obstacle", and it's in the original version. Including Job, which is old testament, therefore Islam wasn't even around then. I see you are continuing to make stuff up in every forum.

^please do not bring grudges based in COMIC books here, or i will have to report you, and im not the type of person to go around reporting others.

you have given me the aramaic/hebrew translation of the word. and i was talking about GOSPELS i.e. the new testament. thankyou for spectacularly misunderstanding. the catholic CHURCH's taking up of the name was{as i read sumwhere before} due to the uncleaniness associated with muslims at the time. i was merely asking QUESTION as to whether i was right or not. as u well know, much of satan's mythology is taken INDIRECTLY from the testaments, which have little actual mention of the being as well as his name for which SATAN isnt directly used often, if ever at all.

Satan wasn't invented by the catholic church, he was already a character in the bible. Revelations reveals his origin, and that is also before Islam. His whole role in the bible as a tempter and enemy of God already existed before Islam was even around, so there's no way that he's based on them.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Good sir, Satan means "obstacle", and it's in the original version. Including Job, which is old testament, therefore Islam wasn't even around then. I see you are continuing to make stuff up in every forum.

Satan means "the accuser" as Satan, accuses Job of lacking faith...

Originally posted by King Kandy
Satan wasn't invented by the catholic church, he was already a character in the bible. Revelations reveals his origin, and that is also before Islam. His whole role in the bible as a tempter and enemy of God already existed before Islam was even around, so there's no way that he's based on them.

I agree, I have no idea what Leo is making up...does he mean the Name or the actual devil character?

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Satan means "the accuser" as Satan, accuses Job of lacking faith...



I agree, I have no idea what Leo is making up...does he mean the Name or the actual devil character?

i mean the name. but it is also reference to the characters, you have to admit, much of the mythology concerning satan etc isnt even close to directly stated in the new testament, and the name brings further confusion, i mean hello, there are people contemplating whether the morningstar meant lucifer or jesus! many a times the BEAST is used, and there are also confusion of whether the anti christ is satan or a human or what the relation between the two is. in pure scriptures, it is very confusing. i.e. the accuser/the snake/the dragon/the beast/the morningstar/ etc etc etc. also, the ACCUSER has a rather interesting mythology surrounding him in judaism, where he is an evil angel WITHIN the ranks of heaven interested in punishments more than judgement etc.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
i mean the name. but it is also reference to the characters, you have to admit, much of the mythology concerning satan etc isnt even close to directly stated in the new testament, and the name brings further confusion, i mean hello, there are people contemplating whether the morningstar meant lucifer or jesus! many a times the BEAST is used, and there are also confusion of whether the anti christ is satan or a human or what the relation between the two is. in pure scriptures, it is very confusing. i.e. the accuser/the snake/the dragon/the beast/the morningstar/ etc etc etc. also, the ACCUSER has a rather interesting mythology surrounding him in judaism, where he is an evil angel WITHIN the ranks of heaven interested in punishments more than judgement etc.

Ah, I can't say I am very familiar with the actual character of the Devil, indeed there is debate over whether he is actually an entity at all.

I shall look into this and get back to you all. I have some good theology books my a man called McGrath- who is good at summing these things up.

The "Accuser" is the "Satan" in Job, yes that was my point all along. It is implied in Job that he works for God or at the very least is tolerated. The Name could mean "Accuser" or "Obstacle" and it originates from before Islam and is even used in the bible. Islam has nothing to do with it. In fact Satan is seen in catholic doctrine long before Islam was pitted against it in any way.

^ i wasnt referring to the CHARACTER of satan dimwit, i was referring to the name SATAN, which was popularised by the church due to the islamic name for the same evil character called SHAITAN. duh ofcourse the devil was a mythological character before islam, why would i beleive otherwise???

as for the accuser being SATAN in job, i have already explained my views on the subect, these references are often vague and hard to interpret.

'Satan' is שָׂטָן Satan in Standard Hebrew, Śāṭān in Tiberian Hebrew, סטנא Saṭänä in Aramaic, Σατανάς Satanás in Koine Greek, شيطان Šeytân in Persian, شيطان Šayṭān in Arabic, ሳይጣን Sāyṭān in Ge'ez, Şeytan in Turkish, and شيطان Shāiṭān in Urdu.



Thats Wikipedia.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Satan wasn't invented by the catholic church, he was already a character in the bible. Revelations reveals his origin, and that is also before Islam. His whole role in the bible as a tempter and enemy of God already existed before Islam was even around, so there's no way that he's based on them.

True, Satan is a very old god.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
True, Satan is a very old god.

As old as the Earth.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
As old as the Earth.


I wouldn't go that far, but I would say he predates recorded history.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I wouldn't go that far, but I would say he predates recorded history.

Where ever there is darkness

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Where ever there is darkness

But he was once the morning star.

Remember we disagree on one fundamental concept: Satan is not real, and is man made.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
But he was once the morning star.

Remember we disagree on one fundamental concept: Satan is not real, and is man made.

I know, hense the wink.

Satan is a lame duck anyway...

Originally posted by leonheartmm
^ i wasnt referring to the CHARACTER of satan dimwit, i was referring to the name SATAN, which was popularised by the church due to the islamic name for the same evil character called SHAITAN. duh ofcourse the devil was a mythological character before islam, why would i beleive otherwise???
The name SATAN was part of church dogma before Islam even EXISTED, dimwit. Church Doctrine=Bible. For you to say that "Shaitan" is the islamic name for "Satan" shows that he had ALREADY EXISTED in earlier Dogma, furthermore THEY HAVE THE SAME ROOT! Of course they sound similar. Islam came after Christianity.

And besides the fact, in Islam Satan is referred to as Iblis. This nullifies your entire point.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
as for the accuser being SATAN in job, i have already explained my views on the subect, these references are often vague and hard to interpret.
Are you for real? He is CALLED Satan in Job. How could you possibly question whether or not he is Satan when that's Satan's premier?

Originally posted by King Kandy
The name SATAN was part of church dogma before Islam even EXISTED, dimwit. Church Doctrine=Bible. For you to say that "Shaitan" is the islamic name for "Satan" shows that he had ALREADY EXISTED in earlier Dogma, furthermore THEY HAVE THE SAME ROOT! Of course they sound similar. Islam came after Christianity.

And besides the fact, in Islam Satan is referred to as Iblis. This nullifies your entire point.


Are you for real? He is CALLED Satan in Job. How could you possibly question whether or not he is Satan when that's Satan's premier?

the name satan was POPULARISED when the church found out of its usage by the muslims and referenced it as unclean. this is what i read in the article on wiki previous to the new and longer edit.
also church doctrine =/= bible, it is paul, they are two different things. i didnt put a chronology on who piced from who, i simply meant that shaitan is the same as satan. islam came from judaism and christianity, but ARABIC DIDNT. arabic is more ancient than greek and even aramaic/ancient hebrew.

also, do not challenge me on islam, youll see that youll be found a bit lacking. "iblis" was the name of the devout JIN who worshipped god to the extent that he was promoted to the level of an angel, {which is unheard of } and he also became the most devout angel, and yet, when he refused to bow down to adam considering him to be inferior as he was made of clay and he himself a jin, was made of fire and as an angel, of god's radiance, he was thrown out of heaven and fell and THEN he was called "SHAITAN" shaitan is what muslims the world over call him. a difference in names before and after the fall. so you see, my point remains.

as for job, i will have to read the specific reference in a sholarly direct translation. more often then not, due to the cryptic and confusing nature of actual bible verses, unwarrantedly lucid translations are made. and also, one instance in job isnt enough to descredit the entire contradicting mythos on the character foudn throughout the bible.

Satan was used in Christianity 500 years before Islam existed. Shaitan and Satan refer to the same thing, but Christianity did it earlier. Any importance of Shaitan in Islam is because he had already made appearances in the new and old testament.

^the word shaitan predates christianity. the concept as seen in context to islam doesnt obviously, but shaitan itself does.

Yeah no shit sherlock since it's analogs appear in all sorts of scripture predating Islam.

^but not predating arabic, which is older than christianity and judaism.

In any case it means nothing. Your claim was that the church had popularized Satan in response to Islam. Which clearly is impossible since Christianity (which mentions Satan many times in the bible and early doctrine) predates Islam.

^popularised =/= created. you fail to uderstand that.

So basically you are claiming that it was popular in Islam before it was popular in Christianity, even though the later predates the former?

During the times of the Jewish wars, the Jews were considered sons of Satan also. Much of these wars, if I remember right, were during the time of Paul. Satan was a word used to mean in conflict with god. Satan is not a real person or entity. Satan is always meant to mean in "conflict/conflicting," with some truth...I.E., difference of opinion.

Funny how the authors of the book are now sons of Satan.

This history and usage and or phrases of words would shed some light on the subject. Etymology. The ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek all have their word phrases, just as we do today.

Society in the future, let's say 2000 years from now, would come to the same conclusions.

it was PRESENT in arabic before the advent of christianity. it was PRESENT in christianity before it was PRESENT in islam. it was popularised in islam before it was popularised in christianity. it was popularised in christianity after it was popularised in islam.

remember, the concept satan and other similar words embody is not necessarily the same and is very vague.

Oh yes. But in this popular day, Satan has been taken to mean some person. My point that it never was meant to be.

^possibly, its vague enough that any description can be made and absolutely NONE can be even close to validated. and yet, for DOGMATISM to exist, you often need definite concepts and that is why the conception of satan has been so popularised in recent times.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
it was popularised in islam before it was popularised in christianity. it was popularised in christianity after it was popularised in islam.
This is the part you have yet to provide evidence for.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
^possibly, its vague enough that any description can be made and absolutely NONE can be even close to validated. and yet, for DOGMATISM to exist, you often need definite concepts and that is why the conception of satan has been so popularised in recent times. Agreed. So, as you have said, is the description of Satan, falsified . I'm not necessarily asking you, but any believer. As far as I have read there really is NOT a description besides word meanings., metaphors, feelings and visions...Please explain the meanings behind these words, please state it with historical evidence that this is a being and not some metaphor.

Dear Christians behold your God.

http://www.yahweh.com/booklets/Whois/Whois.htm

Okieshowedem

Originally posted by Okieshowedem
Dear Christians behold your God.

http://www.yahweh.com/booklets/Whois/Whois.htm

Okieshowedem Added.. Behold your God.

Originally posted by Deja~vu
Added.. Behold your God.

God exists in all forms, the problem human's make is in thinking that each moment is not perfect, motion like time is an illusion, all moments all things in the universe as being part of an instant are mathematically perfect structures. The qualia of the passage of time and of motion are an illusion that arises out of the relationship that exists between one moment|mathematical-structure and the next moment|mathematical-structure