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Combatants: RotS Darth Tyranus versus TPM Darth Maul and RotS Obi-Wan Kenobi. All are at full strength and have their usual weaponry.

Location: Emperor's Throne Room aboard the Death Star ll.

Well, Anoon Bondaras > the Jedi Order. So Maul > The Jedi Order, thus Maul > Star Wars universe.

The logic is easy to see.

Dooku was holding off Obi-Wan and Anakin in ROTS for a time. Enough time at least to separate the two so he could use his Force powers to immobilize Obi-Wan.

Same strategy only now with Maul. Force chuck Obi somewhere (down that big hole/shaft) and then duel Maul and he'll win that comfortably.

Count Dooku's command of the Force gives him a great advantage, but I don't expect that he'll outduel someone of Maul's caliber "comfortably".

Yeah, according to the RotS script, by the time Dooku disposed of Kenobi he was tired. By the time he takes out Kenobi here he will be tired while Maul, being young and having loads of stamina, will still be going strong. I could Maul possibly taking down fatigued Dooku if he stays on him tight with his lightsaber, and doesn't give him an opportunity to use the Force.

Agreed. Kenobi alone is match for dooku. Adding Maul is tipping the scales.

Originally posted by skywalker833
Agreed. Kenobi alone is match for dooku. Adding Maul is tipping the scales.

Pardon? How the hell could anyone conclude that Kenobi alone is a match for Dooku? Have you seen Revenge of the Sith? Count Dooku disables Kenobi handily with the Force whilst having to deal with the prodigious strength of Anakin Skywalker; I will grant you that Obi-Wan's mastery of Soresu would give the Count fits in a pure lightsaber match, but in an all out fight, Kenobi doesn't really compare.

We can assume that neither Maul nor Kenobi compare to Dooku on a scale measuring Force strength. But Kenobi's defense is peerless and Maul is a veritable beast; he physically outclasses the Count and is a much more capable martial artist. He is also a high end master of multiple forms. But likewise, Maul and Kenobi aren't going to be an efficient team and the Count possesses the advantage in terms of Force capability. If he can bring the Force to bear, I could see him winning this. Otherwise, he will be overwhelmed.

Count Dooku would take this. Dooku certainly did not look tired after he pwned ROTS Kenobi after about 45 seconds, and with Anakin on him. Maul is no where near the power of ROTS Anakin. If Dooku could take kenobi like that, he could certainly take out Maul. There is no question Dooku would take them both out.

Originally posted by kiddo44
Count Dooku would take this. Dooku certainly did not look tired after he pwned ROTS Kenobi after about 45 seconds, and with Anakin on him.
The script says he was ie George Lucas says he was tired. He said Kenobi and Dooku were both tired, but Anakin wasn't.

Originally posted by kiddo44
Count Dooku would take this. Dooku certainly did not look tired after he pwned ROTS Kenobi after about 45 seconds, and with Anakin on him. Maul is no where near the power of ROTS Anakin. If Dooku could take kenobi like that, he could certainly take out Maul. There is no question Dooku would take them both out.

While we all certainly appreciate your continued zealotry in defense of the noble Count, it is quite hard to compare Darth Maul with Kenobi or Skywalker; while Maul certainly lacks the raw Force connection and strength that Skywalker possessed, he was a much higher trained combatant -- being a master of Juyo requires Maul to have been a "high end master of multiple lightsaber forms" and his mastery and affinity for various martial arts and physical disciplines suggests that he might manhandle Skywalker or Kenobi in a brawl -- though that isn't to say that Maul would defeat Skywalker in a duel. As far as the Count's fatigue, your refutation comes from the Count's expression? Alas, the novelization and the script confirm that, as the duel progressed, both Dooku and Kenobi were tiring out fast (in contrast to Skywalker merely increasing in ferociousness); Dooku was forced to replenish his vitality with the Force once he managed to disable Kenobi. The entire exercise was intended to be a demonstration of Dooku's superiority over the Jedi duo, but he had to rely on the Force once it was clear that he could not overcome their combined efforts in a strict sword fight. While I have already acknowledged that the Count's Force mastery gives him an advantage, it's as plain as day that Kenobi's defense is simply too strong for Dooku to break through while having to simultaneously deal with a duelist of Maul's calibre. Dooku can win, but he will only be able to do so because of the Force.

Couldn't have said that better. No need to post my argument now.

Giggle.lol1

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Giggle.lol1

Amusing isn't it.
it shows that he does nothing but agree with the answer he deems correct.

The novel contradicts the movie. Dooku wasn't tired at all after disposing of Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
The novel contradicts the movie. Dooku wasn't tired at all after disposing of Obi-Wan.
How does the movie contradict the fact that Dooku was tired?

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
The novel contradicts the movie. Dooku wasn't tired at all after disposing of Obi-Wan.

I expect better than this. Dooku replenished himself with the Force, as per the novelization. Prove that he wasn't tired.

An eighty-three year-old man having to use the Force as a crutch while fighting two skilled warriors about a third and quarter his age each shouldn't be much of a surprise, and certainly shouldn't be a detracting factor.

Neither Maul nor Kenobi would be able to put up much of a fight in a Force contest, so he probably pull of the RotS thing again and pwn one or the other without too much trouble. In a duel, either would give him an incredibly hard time, but ultimately neither has any real chance of winning. So depending on he would go about it, Dooku wins with a varying degree of difficulty.

No one said that it was a detraction or a deciding factor, but Dooku can't compete with someone like Maul and Anakin in terms of stamina.

And that's exactly the reason why he replenishes himself with the Force. I don't know why this is so complicated for some people to understand.

I'll break this into sections; nice thread, btw.

Sabers Only- The duo take this, hands-down. Maul was a very formidable lightsaber duelist on his own right, and Obi-Wan had proven himself to be very much capable of handling Dooku individually in a saber fight only (though Dooku will eventually beat him). Due to this matter, and Obi-Wan's knack for tactical thinking and cunning moves, the team should defeat Dooku with some degree of effort.

Force Battle- Dooku owns them in this category. Dooku has displayed some pretty impressive force powers (arguably comparable to someone like Mace's) and very refined mastery. He is called numerous times to be an extremely potent force user. However, Obi-Wan's most impressive force feat is arguably hurling a heavy cyborg a long distance away. It won't work on Dooku. Maul's skill in the force is next to nothing.

All-Out: It really does depend; if Dooku can take out Obi-Wan with the force before engaging Maul, he wins. If not, the team can take him out in saber combat.

Because he never...once...expresses any fatigue in the film?



Do you want me to go and get every shot of Dooku's face or something? Nothing in the movie suggests he was tired or he had to "recharge" like he did in the novel.

"He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away. "

Did you see anything like that in the movie?

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Because he never...once...expresses any fatigue in the film?

So, because he didn't stop and breathe heavily, he must have been energetic. Or perhaps it was because those patented computerized replicas of Lee's face weren't exactly expressive?



You'll need a lot more than that to disprove the novelization.

The novel fight is vastly different than the movie's version. The fatigue is just one part of it.
The two versions of the fights are practically incomparable.

If Dooku doesn't show he's tired in the movie, he isn't. Don't assume things based on a lower source.

Don't tell the better debater what to do.

In the first place, you seem to think that the only true evidence of someone being fatigued or tired is breathing heavily, but no, not necessarily.

The movie never shows what many would call an energetic Dooku, either, and therefore, there is absolutely nothing to contradict what is written in the novel.

And what, can YOU tell when someone uses the Force to replenish his stamina? You can't tell, nobody can, and if the novel says so, it is fact.

It's completely irrelevant, so I don't see why anyone would bother arguing it. Dooku's nearly four times as old as either Maul or Anakin - clearly, his physical stamina is going to suffer in comparison.

I know, but some people just fail to see that, for whatever reasons.

The movie can't tell you how a character feels on the inside. Just because there is no outside reaction doesn't mean that point is not valid. When I play sooccer I get tired towards the end of the game but I don't show it, it really is not that hard to hide the fac that your tired. This is imo opinion is where a novel can exceed the movie, it can tell you how characters feel on the inside something the movie can't do in a lightsaber battle.

Of course. Sometimes what a character says or does can convey the emotion as well.
See how Dooku stops and takes a breath after fighting Anakin in EPII?



Energetic? You mean like hyper? No we don't. But if by energetic you mean full of energy, I think he qualifies. Fought Obi-Wan, Anakin and Yoda all in one go. I think that requires anyone to be full of energy.



Interesting proposition. Take an almost absolutely different fight presented in the novels and proceed to take one detail from it and fit it into the movie version all so it benefits your argument. There's no proof of it but why not.

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Interesting proposition. Take an almost absolutely different fight presented in the novels and proceed to take one detail from it and fit it into the movie version all so it benefits your argument. There's no proof of it but why not.

He is not taking the different fight over the movie (such as dooku hurling an object at Anakin with the force) he is talking about the description of the character's emotions or how he feels.

So Dooku revitalized himself in the fight despite zero visual hints or evidence.
Fine, why not.

Here is some of the ROTS quotes regarding dooku's stamina.

This one takes place where Dooku force pushes Obiwan temporarily out of the battle.



These quotes take place as Dooku knocks obiwan out of the battle and physical description of this part of the battle is on par with movies and in it describes dooku healing himself.



The bold part(where dooku heals himself) happens right before Skywalker drops down from the balcony to attack(note that there is a about second for dooku to heal himself) Dooku is 100% accurate (thus it is canon) even to Dooku's flick of the blade just prior to Anakin hitting the ground.

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
So Dooku revitalized himself in the fight despite zero visual hints or evidence.
Fine, why not.

The fact that you didn't see him tired doesn't mean he wasn't. But that's not my point.

I'll say it again: Even if Dooku did not look tired, it was ONLY because he used the Force to replenish his strength and stamina.
You don't need to have visual evidence, because one can replenish himself with the Force without making it visually obvious. Therefore, your point is moot.

Originally posted by Lt. Valerian
The fact that you didn't see him tired doesn't mean he wasn't. But that's not my point.

I'll say it again: Even if Dooku did not look tired, it was ONLY because he used the Force to replenish his strength and stamina.
You don't need to have visual evidence, because one can replenish himself with the Force without making it visually obvious. Therefore, your point is moot.

Correct. ^_^

Yoda replenished himself in ROTS against Palpatine.
Vader did it against Luke in ESB.

No visual evidence or clue of any kind? NO PROBLEM!

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Yoda replenished himself in ROTS against Palpatine.

Yes, they both did, and I think the reason is quite obvious.



No, he didn't need to. Why? Because he wasn't even using his full strength... I thought that was quite obvious, as well.



What do you mean 'or clue of any kind'? It's C-Canon. Deal with it. And for the visual evidence, I've already explained, no need to do it again.




Hey, it's not my fault that you can't come up with a better argument.

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Yoda replenished himself in ROTS against Palpatine.
Vader did it against Luke in ESB.

No visual evidence or clue of any kind? NO PROBLEM!

Relying on "visual evidence" as the singular crux of your argument is, quite frankly, retarded. Perhaps if we were arguing in favor of something completely ridiculous or preposterous that required such basis, but it doesn't. All of the older characters have had to rely solely on the Force to compensate for their feeble physiology; the novelization and script make it clear that Dooku was burning out like a candle lit on both ends.

Originally posted by Gideon
Relying on "visual evidence" as the singular crux of your argument is, quite frankly, retarded. Perhaps if we were arguing in favor of something completely ridiculous or preposterous that required such basis, but it doesn't. All of the older characters have had to rely solely on the Force to compensate for their feeble physiology; the novelization and script make it clear that Dooku was burning out like a candle lit on both ends.

Exactly.

Says who?



Neither was Dooku at the point you all are trying to say he needed to revitalize.



It's lower canon and contradicted by higher canon.
As for what you explained...you made up a load and shoved it in my face. That's not an explanation.



Of course they rely on the Force. Who ever denied that?
You're using two lower sources and your own theories while ignoring what exactly happens in the movies.
I'll end this right now. Prove to me with G-Canon evidence from the movies that Dooku was tired or had to stop and replenish his energy.
If you can't you have nothing but lower sources contradicted by higher ones.

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Says who?



Neither was Dooku at the point you all are trying to say he needed to revitalize.



It's lower canon and contradicted by higher canon.
As for what you explained...you made up a load and shoved it in my face. That's not an explanation.



Of course they rely on the Force. Who ever denied that?
You're using two lower sources and your own theories while ignoring what exactly happens in the movies.
I watched the fight multiple times. And Dooku doesn't show fatigue or tiredness or anything.
G-Canon >>>>>> all. End of story.


Oh... Why bother. I would have thought you'd understood by now. Apparently you never will.

Funny, I was gonna say the same about you.
Have fun with your lower and invalid sources.

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Funny, I was gonna say the same about you.
Have fun with your lower and invalid sources.

Let me make something especially clear with you, Pyron. We aren't making any unsupported claim nor do we hold the burden of proof. We're simply telling you what the novelization and the screenplay indicate -- do not tell me that I hold the burden of proof. That's on you, sport, and the whole idea that "LOLZ it doesnt show Doku stopp and teh Force duzn't GLOW and show him rejewvinate! ERRGO Doku DIDNT REJEWVINATE!" is proof that shit doesn't hold water.

Get back to me when you have something worth my time.

Originally posted by Gideon
Get back to me when you have something worth my time.

Why should I have to prove anything?
If it didn't happen, it didn't happen.
It's like saying I have to prove Dooku didn't do cartwheels and sing in the duel.
If it's not there, it didn't happen.

You're using a lower source and your own baseless theories to say he re-energizied himself. That's all.

Pyron did you even look at my post, when dooku heals himeself the movie fight and the novel fight are exactly the same, by reading the quotes and watching the movie you can even pinpoint the second that he heals himself (though there is not visual appearance of this in the movie.)

edit

Remember there will be no droids to temporarily distract Kenobi here. This wnt work in Dookus favour and may give his stamina more trouble.

Also i can see Maul having more resistance to Dookus Sith Force Attacks than Kenobi does. The reason I think this is because Maul culd take Force Lightning from that Force Witch which is when she realised that he was a Sith. Also becuase his training as a Sith under Sidious.

So i give this to the duo. But if any one of the 2 gets disposed of with the Force first it will most probably be Kenobi. But Dooku does have a chance to take both out with the Force, but will most proably get taken out by one of the duo first.

I did read your post. That changes the fact the two fights presented in the movie and in the novel are vastly different?

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
I did read your post. That changes the fact the two fights presented in the movie and in the novel are vastly different? No but the specific passage of obiwan getting knocked out of the duel,anakin kicking dooku over the balcony, where dooku has a second to heal himself, than twirl his blade once right before he renengages Ankain is 1000% accurate with the movie's versions so that part of the novel is canon.

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Funny, I was gonna say the same about you.
Have fun with your lower and invalid sources.
So when someone makes a point that you can't ignore, you just state something containing the words "lower" and "sources"?
So please, tell us, what sources are not invalid. Links, please.