Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

3 areas of combat

Dear God, all three of them versus Sidious? Someone better have the Senate nominate a new Emperor...

Originally posted by Gideon
Dear God, all three of them versus Sidious? Someone better have the Senate nominate a new Emperor...
well people are aways glorifying sids and i want to test how far this takes him

Originally posted by Man of Christ
well people are aways glorifying sids and i want to test how far this takes him

Glorify him? He's the most powerful Sith ever, but he can't take these guys at once. He's curbstomped.

Originally posted by Gideon
Glorify him? He's the most powerful Sith ever, but he can't take these guys at once. He's curbstomped.
lol i enjoy your artistic descriptions

Originally posted by Gideon
Glorify him? He's the most powerful Sith ever, but he can't take these guys at once. He's curbstomped.

does one of them die or all 3 survive?

they all survive.

Originally posted by darthsith19
they all survive.

One might have a really nasty limp, but that's about it.

Sion and Kreia distract him and Nihilus drains him is what came to my head as soon as I read the title.

Yeah, this one's one sided. Especially because of Nihilus.

hysterical LOL!!! Sid's gets Mega Gang-raped!!!!


bawling :Tears of joy.


Individually Traya or Nihilius could stand up to him and possibly win,but he does get raped if they all take him.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
hysterical LOL!!! Sid's gets Mega Gang-raped!!!!


bawling :Tears of joy.


Individually Traya or Nihilius could stand up to him and possibly win,but he does get raped if they all take him.

Sidious = Most powerful Sith ever. Both Traya and Nihilus have shit saber skills, and Sidious' force mastery is basically unmatched; his force drain is just as potent as these people. His lightning is far superior. Yeah, he pwns each one of them individually.

But all three? Lol, this is insane. It's like the NJO Luke vs. Sidious, Yoda, Nihilus, and Bane... NO ONE can take out Nihilus, Sion, and Traya at once. Sidious gets owned, but he can possibly take out one of them with him. Well... I'd say Sion might get killed, because he has no special powers- and Sidious can probably take him out via the dark side, eliminating his permanent life-span. Sidious will subsequently curbstomp him in a saber duel.

Traya and Nihilus, though, are each almost as strong as ROTS Sidious in the force, and together they can pwn him. The team wins.

As of yet, no canon source has ever factually stated Sidious to be the most powerful Sith Lord there's ever been, and in terms of demonstrated power, there are many who have him beaten, some by a mile. You seriously need to stop presenting this extremely idiotic opinion as a fact in every thread you post in, because you look like a fool each and every time.

As for his "unmatched" Force Mastery, as it stands, Bane's ability to use the Force on the sub-atomic level is the greatest showing of control and mastery there's ever been in the mythos, and that really is something that's unmatched. Sidious hasn't demonstrated mastery even close, and the idea that his Force drain is even as potent as Traya's, let alone Nihilus', is as laughable as it gets. He hasn't demonstrated the power on a scale even close to planetary, and he's never been able to dominate powerful Force Users with it either, let alone three of the most powerful Jedi Masters in the Galaxy at the same time with no visible signs of effort like Traya did. He was only ever stated to have drained the Force from Byss and its inhabitants, over extended periods of time, to prolong his health. That no indication is given to how many inhabitants or how much energy from the Planet he was able to drain the Force from at any given time makes the feat completely worthless.

It'd also be terrific if you could prove that Traya's or Nihilus' saber skills were "shit," as you put it, and that Sidious' were any better, because just like the people you're comapring to, he hasn't ever demonstrated any particularly impressive skills; certainly nothing that would put him above Traya or Nihilus in the department, and the fact that he dedicated his time, almost fully, to mastering the Force and obtaining as much knowledge as he could get his hands on, following his rise to power, would leave him even less time to focus on his lightsaber skills than Nihilus or Traya would have had.

You seem familiar... hmm

Originally posted by Kadesh
As of yet, no canon source has ever factually stated Sidious to be the most powerful Sith Lord there's ever been, and in terms of demonstrated power, there are many who have him beaten, some by a mile. You seriously need to stop presenting this extremely idiotic opinion as a fact in every thread you post in, because you look like a fool each and every time.

As for his "unmatched" Force Mastery, as it stands, Bane's ability to use the Force on the sub-atomic level is the greatest showing of control and mastery there's ever been in the mythos, and that really is something that's unmatched. Sidious hasn't demonstrated mastery even close, and the idea that his Force drain is even as potent as Traya's, let alone Nihilus', is as laughable as it gets. He hasn't demonstrated the power on a scale even close to planetary, and he's never been able to dominate powerful Force Users with it either, let alone three of the most powerful Jedi Masters in the Galaxy at the same time with no visible signs of effort like Traya did. He was only ever stated to have drained the Force from Byss and its inhabitants, over extended periods of time, to prolong his health. That no indication is given to how many inhabitants or how much energy from the Planet he was able to drain the Force from at any given time makes the feat completely worthless.

It'd also be terrific if you could prove that Traya's or Nihilus' saber skills were "shit," as you put it, and that Sidious' were any better, because just like the people you're comapring to, he hasn't ever demonstrated any particularly impressive skills; certainly nothing that would put him above Traya or Nihilus in the department, and the fact that he dedicated his time, almost fully, to mastering the Force and obtaining as much knowledge as he could get his hands on, following his rise to power, would leave him even less time to focus on his lightsaber skills than Nihilus or Traya would have had.

you realize you've degenerated to the point of bringing up bane when no one is even talking about him now?

Lucas is pretty cannon. He said sidious is the greatest. ROTS novelization calls him the culmination of bane's order, stating that each sith in the order became more powerful than the last. so with that kind of logic (which i don't agree with, but its there) you could possible say that bane is the WEAKEST sith in his order...) but who am i to point that out?

Wait, when did Lucas say Sidious was the greatest?

Originally posted by Kadesh
As of yet, no canon source has ever factually stated Sidious to be the most powerful Sith Lord there's ever been, and in terms of demonstrated power, there are many who have him beaten, some by a mile. You seriously need to stop presenting this extremely idiotic opinion as a fact in every thread you post in, because you look like a fool each and every time.

YOU'RE A FOOL to deny canon. NEC... Visual Dictionary... DE... I suppose they're all non-canon, right? Well, yeah, of course they aren't canon! The author was lying!

Originally posted by Kadesh
As for his "unmatched" Force Mastery, as it stands, Bane's ability to use the Force on the sub-atomic level is the greatest showing of control and mastery there's ever been in the mythos, and that really is something that's unmatched. Sidious hasn't demonstrated mastery even close, and the idea that his Force drain is even as potent as Traya's, let alone Nihilus', is as laughable as it gets. He hasn't demonstrated the power on a scale even close to planetary, and he's never been able to dominate powerful Force Users with it either, let alone three of the most powerful Jedi Masters in the Galaxy at the same time with no visible signs of effort like Traya did. He was only ever stated to have drained the Force from Byss and its inhabitants, over extended periods of time, to prolong his health. That no indication is given to how many inhabitants or how much energy from the Planet he was able to drain the Force from at any given time makes the feat completely worthless.

Bane, I suppose, is the absolute incarnation of power in your eyes, while you refuse to see that Sidious has done far more impressive feats than he had.

-Byss Drain: Yes, it was on a planetary level and involved a very good portion of the Alderaan survivors; the simple capability to drain a whole planet at once is far beyond what Traya had displayed. The details of Nihilus' drain, other than the "Lol he'z so uber" often used by characters- fallible characters- are completely unknown.

-Force Lightning: Let us not forget the very fact that there will be a single force power very helpful in this fight; namely Sidious' force lightning, that was on a far higher potency than any force users in your list, despite your pretense. The lightning was capable of making Windu, an exceptionally powerful saber use, almost be completely overpowered by it- and its my contention that Sidious wasn't really trying in the lightning struggle. The same lightning reduced three dark side prophets to ashes, prophets whose capability with the force was to resurrect a Darth Maul who was capable of matching Vader. Indeed, he also killed 500 stormtroopers with force lightning- 500 ALTERED stormtroopers. Yeah, go ahead. And what's exactly Bane's usage of the force on a molecular level? I won't even get to his force storm. But that's DE Sidious.

-Sidious' speed, anyone? His speed that was addressed as a blur, the viewer (Anakin) being incapable of seeing Sidious himself?

Originally posted by Kadesh
It'd also be terrific if you could prove that Traya's or Nihilus' saber skills were "shit," as you put it, and that Sidious' were any better, because just like the people you're comapring to, he hasn't ever demonstrated any particularly impressive skills; certainly nothing that would put him above Traya or Nihilus in the department, and the fact that he dedicated his time, almost fully, to mastering the Force and obtaining as much knowledge as he could get his hands on, following his rise to power, would leave him even less time to focus on his lightsaber skills than Nihilus or Traya would have had.

On the contrary. Sidious was capable of completely WTFpwning 3 Jedi Masters, who were considered to be some of the greatest swordsmen in the histoy of the Jedi order, in the space of 10 seconds. He also subsequently forced back Mace Windu, who was only capable of gaining the upper hand due to his shatterpoint ability; Sidious was later capable of being equally matched with Yoda, the 'most devestatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known', according to the novel, in lightsaber combat skill, too. I'd call that impressive.

Also, Nick Gillard mentioned him to be a master of every form and a level 9 swordsmen, the highest tier available in lightsaber combat.

Note that I still believe that ROTS Sidious would be curbstomped by these three, but he can take any of them on individually.

i think he could take two, easily if one of them is sion.
I bet he could take nihilius and traya, simply because we have NO IDEA how his force drain works. We can't always assume it kills individual people, what if it has to be on a planetary scale before it works, and what if it weakens them little by little, and kills them days later? Do we really know any details of his attack? Traya would be dangerous, but she has never done anything that sidious couldn't do on a bad day.

No one could beat Nihilus, Sion and Traya at the same time?
Au contraire.
Darth Bane could.


Seriously though Sids loses this one. Luke and Sidious have gotten their lumps. Let's make curbstomps for other characters.

Not another "Sidious getting raped" thread.
Enough with the curbstomps people!

Hell yeah.

Lol, I guess Sidious is one of the characters who simply DESERVES to be curbstomped. xD

Once again, posting unrealistic, one-sided threads is kind of stupid. Do something realistic lolz.

Or you could change the matchup... possibly ROTS Anakin and ROTS Sidious? In that situation, they could possibly win.

Anakin would be the weak link there. He would most likely start the fight with a weak ass line.

Character: Anakin's Lines refering to character
Darth Traya: "Time to take a nap!"
Darth Nihilus: "I don't know what you're saying, but I'll shut you up!"
Darth Sion: "Shall I give you more scars!?"

No, it will be more like;

Traya: The force is strong in you, young one. I sense it now... you must join me!
Anakin: YOU UNDERESTIMATE MY POWER!!! *Lunges at Traya and subsequently is hit by force lightning from Sion, Traya, and Nihilus simultaneously.*

No, seriously, Anakin is one of the best swordsmen in history, and can take any of them in a saber fight (referring to the trio). If he and Sidious can close up on them, the trio gets pwned. If not, they still hold the advantage at long-ranged combat; Sidious is still stronger than each one of them, but seeing as Anakin's long-ranged assaults are powered next-to-nothing, the trio would still overwhelm Sidious and curbstomp Anakin.

So, it could go either way.

Anakin is the son of the force. His enemies would have a difficult time force attacking him b/c of his strength. As for the new member who brought up Bane AND doubted Sidious's uberness, I would suggest re-reading the ROTS novelization, and trying to refrain from bringing up characters with little bearing on the discussion.

That is not a new member to the forum.

It says "Junior Member". If you mean it is a sock, then I have to pretend that it is not, if only for my sanity and faith in the general goodness of humans.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
YOU'RE A FOOL to deny canon. NEC...

Which, and as you've already been told, is an in-universe source, written by a character within the Star Wars Galaxy that is perfectly subject to being uninformed, misinformed, holding a poor opinion, and/or suffering from biases.

Put short, the source doesn't even come close to being canon.



Now you're just making things up. I have both sources, and no such thing is ever factually stated to be the case. Not once, in either source.

But even if that wasn't the case, it's up to you to provide a quote at the very least, so until you can do that, drop the point.

Also, we're talking RotS Sidious here, and that incarnation alone. His power level as of DE is entirely irrelevant.



Firstly, not at all, Nihilus himself is someone who I view his firm superior in force power.

Secondly, in terms of Force mastery (which is all that I was talking about), Palpatine hasn't even come close to manipulating the Force on the sub-atomic level or anything similar.

Thirdly, seeing as you're so desperate to bring it up, in terms of actual power, Sidious hasn't performed anything even close to planetary, whereas Bane was able to absorb such a magnitude of lightning, that after containing it, and then re-directing it, it was stated that he would have been capable of destroying the entire planet of Ruusan.



No, its wasn't. The scale is completely unknown, and all that is said is that Sidious drained energy from the Planet, over extended periods of time (which alone is indication that he didn't drain the entirety of the Planet's Force energy in one action), to prolong his life.

And again, we're talking about RotS here, not any later incarnation.



Again, no indication is given, and given that he was draining their life force to prolong his own, there would have never been any need for him to drain more than one or two inhabitants (depending on their vitality) at any given time.



You're absolutely correct Sidi-Boy, though sadly, Sidious displayed neither.



Actually, they're not. It was described in Unseen, Unheard, by Visas Marr, that "when spoke, every living thing on Katarr died." Given that she was present, and as a Miralakula, naturally relied on the Force as her primary sense (and thus would have been more in tune with sensing deaths through the Force and such than the average Force User), it's likely that she would have been able to sense the mass disturbance of life through the Force, and the way she describes it would indicate that it was a singular action.



Firstly, tangible Force attacks are just about the most ineffective attacks against other Force Users that there are, because not only would they have to get past the Force User's Force defences in the first place, but then any physical defences as well, in this case, the Force User's lightsaber. You'd have to be far more powerful than your opponent to be able to successfully overpower them with a Force lightning attack, and as it stands, Palpatine hasn't displayed anything that would indicate that he was even more powerful than any of his opponents, let alone the two more powerful of the group (Sion and Nihilus), and by high enough of a degree.

Secondly, the idea that Sidious' force lightning was more powerful than that of any of the three is completely unsupported, and the fact that we haven't seen any demonstrations from them with the action alone doesn't change that.



Substantiate this, because while it's somewhat impressive, when dealing with the likes of the beings within the Sith Triumvirate, it really doesn't scream uber. If anything, it indicates that he wasn't even strong enough to overpower someone on the level of Mace Windu.



Is anyone supposed to care? Until you can prove it, it's worthless to bring up.



1. Prove that they would have even been prepared to defence against Sidious' attacks, because I just re-read the comic, and as it appears, Sidious completely came out of nowhere and caught them off guard.

2. Since when was experimental application of the Force, something that's more organised if anything else, testament to ability with the Force?

3. Again, we're dealing with RotS Sidious, not any later incarnation, here.



It was less than 100 actually, as far as what we see from the comic, which is hardly unprecedented. Bane (I just can't help myself) was able to surpass it in pure scale a simple hour after having learnt the technique for the very first time.

And again, we're dealing with RotS Sidious, not any later incarnation, here.



'The Matrix had to fall within exacting specifications, and Bane had spent hundreds of hours making thousands of precise, subatomic alterations through the Force....'- RO2 p.g.136



I'd advise you not to, as it was completely ritualistic, and something that Sidious wouldn't logically be able to pull off and control well enough in a fast paced duel against three Sith Lords.



Contradicting G-Canon, anyone? As the movie shows, Anakin only arrived at the location in question after the duel had ended, meaning the novel, in this case, is N-Canon.



The first two: Agen and Saesee, he was able to take down through his superior Force enhanced speed alone. In no way an indication of lightsaber technique. As for the rest, you're committing a Fallacy of Division, asserting that feats that were achieved through a number of attributes, speak fully for a single attribute of your choosing.



Nick Gillard is not even close to being a canon source or real authority on the matter. He's the stunt coordinator of the film, his opinion is only relevant on the choreography we see through the movies, not in any way on the story itself. You're appealing to authority in the worst possible way.



Which is supposed to mean anything? Only a Grade A idiot would think otherwise.



Based on existing evidence, no, he can't.

Nihilus: able to destroy an entire Planet's inhabitants in what is described as one singular action, and this at a weakened stated. Stated to be at a level of power where he no longer perceived the universe like ordinary beings do.

Sion: able to cheat death, something completely unprecedented, which not only is indication of an extremely high level of power, but something that makes him near unstoppable in these versus threads.

Traya: able to overpower three of the most powerful Jedi Masters of her time with no visible signs of effort, and possessed unparalleled levels of precognition, being able to see thousands of years into the future, and recall events with clarity and understanding.

RotS Sidious hasn't even come close to displaying anything remarkable, or unprecedented, whereas all of the above three have, and based on what they've all shown, Sidious would get absolutely curbstomped by Sion or Nihilus, and solidly beaten by Traya.

No Kadesh...no...


-Bane did abosrb the lightning and redirect it but it was through the use of the ritual and also channeling what 25 other Sith's power, he was merly the conduit. The attack should not be used as a basis of Banes personal power.

-As for Sub atomic manipulations, Palpatine has likely done the same since he has created his own holocron, the Telos holocron as evidence by Jedi vs Sith the Essential Guide to the Force.

-Palpatine during the Clone Wars performs a ritual where he creates a force storm over Coursant, and his sheer power blacks out the entire planet, and it allows him to affect the moral of every Jedi around the galaxy including Yoda. Basically a Bastila's Battle Meditation on a galactic scale.

He's called the culmination of Banes order the most powerful of them (I can't remember the exact source but give me an hour and I'll find it) so that already puts him above Bane.

I could go on with the Sidious hype but I think you get the picture.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
He's called the culmination of Banes order the most powerful of them (I can't remember the exact source but give me an hour and I'll find it) so that already puts him above Bane.



Are you referring to this from the essential guide to the force ?

Darth Sidious proved to be the grim culmination of a thousand years of Sith philosophy and teachings.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
No Kadesh...no...

Quantify and substantiate seeing as you heavily underestimate Vader.



While it's true that it wasn't Bane's own power that was capable of destroying Ruusan, it's the mere fact that he absorbed it ("it" being a planetary level magnitude of Force lightning) in the first place that makes it impressive, which was done completely on his own power.



Nowhere is it stated or even implied that it's vital in the creation of every or any holocron. We know that it was the method Bane chose, but that doesn't mean that the creation of all other Holocrons had to be built in the exact same way, so no, there's nothing whatsoever that suggests that Palpatine would have been capable of doing the same.



1. As the comic shows, and as the UVG states, he didn't perform the ritual on his own, but rather, summoned about a dozen Ancient Sith spirits before hand to help him with the Ritual.

2. Last time I checked the comic, all the ritual did was summon lightning storms throughout the Galaxy. Not in any shape or form an actual Force Storm, and in no way did it blacken out the planet or affect any of the Jedi's moral, at least as far as what's shown.



No, he was stated to be the culmination of their knowledge and teachings, nothing about being the most powerful, and while that speaks for quite a bit, there's far more to how powerful a Force User is than just their actual knowledge. based on what they've both displayed, Bane has him beat by a mile in mastery and power.



No, go on, because as it stands, you didn't prove a single thing.

What comic are you guys referring to?

One of the Visionaries, though I'm not sure you can currently access it from swtimeline.

Relevance? How do my opinions from what a year ago have anything to do with this? If anything I pro-Vader as I countinually agued for him against the influx of the Bnae fanboys.




AGAIN he was channeling the power 25 OTHER Lords, meaning their power + his allowed him to be the focal point and conduit of the Force Storm. He was protected by their power. The simple fact that in RoT when he's put in a similar situation, his own force lightning (A MUCH MUCH MUCH weaker version then the force storm on Ruusan) when reflected back at him, while he was inside the Jedi's force shield brought him to the point that he was an uncounsious half dead smoking husk. Had he had this tremendous power your speaking of he wouldn't have been fazed by it.




Actually Banes frustration with the Holocron and years of persistance seem to imply that that was the only method available, in creating an ever lasting SITH holocron, like the one Revan made, and the Sith woman with the techno droid army. Why else would such a practical man like Bane waste so much time if other methods were available




Point taken.



Actually it did, were shown Padme in the dark and the lights out on Coruscant, were also show every Jedi being affected in the large crystal, such as
Yoda getting hurt out of nowhere and Anakin going beserk. All Sidious influence.




I'd like to see the exact quote before we go on with this, I'll look it up and get back to you.

Sidious's power is evident through Yoda whom, the ROTS novel calls the most devistatngly powerful force the Dark Side has ever known and in a death match couldn't beat Sidious, meaning he would beat Bane more often then not since is as said "The most powerful force the darkness has ever known." and if Yoda could do it, so could Sids.

Let me note that I really don't care about the whole "Sids the most powerful Sith argument" I'm just saying he's better then PoD Bane, RoT Bane with the Orbalisks could take ROTS Sidious and probably whoop his ass, but thats niether here nor there.

Originally posted by Kadesh
He hasn't demonstrated the power on a scale even close to planetary, and he's never been able to dominate powerful Force Users with it either, let alone three of the most powerful Jedi Masters in the Galaxy at the same time with no visible signs of effort like Traya did. he killed those three guys standing around mace windu. He also has a force storm that ravages the surfaces of planets according to darkside source book.

Way to read the rest of the thread.

And to be honest, Nebaris brings up several good points, especially considering that this is RotS Sidious and not his DE incarnation.

Of course, just cuz I want to say it: Sids gets pwned.

Kadesh isn't Noobaris, considering he used to have drawn out debates with him.

lol

The original Kadesh would now be Ivalice. The 'new' Kadesh is Neb.

Originally posted by Kadesh
One of the Visionaries, though I'm not sure you can currently access it from swtimeline.

Is this it?

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?view=973&size=M&page=051

looks like it.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
No Kadesh...no...


-Bane did abosrb the lightning and redirect it but it was through the use of the ritual and also channeling what 25 other Sith's power, he was merly the conduit. The attack should not be used as a basis of Banes personal power.

-As for Sub atomic manipulations, Palpatine has likely done the same since he has created his own holocron, the Telos holocron as evidence by Jedi vs Sith the Essential Guide to the Force.

-Palpatine during the Clone Wars performs a ritual where he creates a force storm over Coursant, and his sheer power blacks out the entire planet, and it allows him to affect the moral of every Jedi around the galaxy including Yoda. Basically a Bastila's Battle Meditation on a galactic scale.

He's called the culmination of Banes order the most powerful of them (I can't remember the exact source but give me an hour and I'll find it) so that already puts him above Bane.

I could go on with the Sidious hype but I think you get the picture. I was the original kadesh you pwned, the "new" kadesh is the notorious nebaris.

Thats hilarious, Nebs truly is one of the most pathetic human beings I've come across...

Lol, so YOU'RE this "Noobaris"? The guy who was called the biggest Bane fanboy in history? Well... it makes perfect sense now...

Originally posted by Kadesh


Which, and as you've already been told, is an in-universe source, written by a character within the Star Wars Galaxy that is perfectly subject to being uninformed, misinformed, holding a poor opinion, and/or suffering from biases.

Put short, the source doesn't even come close to being canon.

Rofl. Cause you don't want it to be canon, it ISN'T canon? Lol. That's completely pathetic.

The NEC was written by some of the best informed and best sponsored historians in the history of the galaxy; I'm pretty sure that they were quite well-informed. Unless some of the information in the NEC DIRECTLY contradicts established canon, it should be taken as C-Canon. And nothing contradicts Sidious being the most powerful Sith Lord.



Originally posted by Kadesh
Now you're just making things up. I have both sources, and no such thing is ever factually stated to be the case. Not once, in either source.

In Dark Empire, it was clearly stated that Sidious, the most powerful wielder of the dark side in history, had rose from the grave. Now then- this calling Sidious the most powerful would use the Sidious from BEFORE DE; unless you can prove ROTJ Sidious was a lot more powerful than ROTS Sidious, your argument fails.

I'm pretty confident that the Visual Dictionary directly stated Sidious to be the most powerful Sith Lord, but I might be incorrect.

Originally posted by Kadesh
But even if that wasn't the case, it's up to you to provide a quote at the very least, so until you can do that, drop the point.

"Yoda could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history."- New Essential Chronology

Is that enough for you? I don't possess the plethora of quotes and canon sources that you people do, merely the knowledge of them, but I'm confident several people here can provide other quotes.

Also, use your logic. Yoda is stated by the ROTS novel to be the greatest Jedi in history; logically, if Sidious could beat him/stalemate him (depends on how you view the fight), wouldn't it make Sidious the greatest dark side wielder in history? Unless the difference between Jedi and Sith is so huge.

Originally posted by Kadesh
Firstly, not at all, Nihilus himself is someone who I view his firm superior in force power.

Then you are mistaken. Bane > Nihilus in almost all aspects, other than the part about Nihilus draining a planet; something that is very, very unknown to the mythos, the only quote that describes it is the so-called 'fallible character', who was incidentally Nihilus' apprentice and in extreme awe of his power. It could be that the Jedi were drained over time, the screams beginning as they got drained slowly... it happens.

Originally posted by Kadesh
Secondly, in terms of Force mastery (which is all that I was talking about), Palpatine hasn't even come close to manipulating the Force on the sub-atomic level or anything similar.

As mentiond above, the fact that Bane had successfully created a holocron via sub-atomic manipulation does not mean Sidious could not do the same. He also happened to create a holocron himself.

Or, could you please prove to me exactly how the sub-atomic manipulations came into display in combat? Thank you.

Originally posted by Kadesh
Thirdly, seeing as you're so desperate to bring it up, in terms of actual power, Sidious hasn't performed anything even close to planetary, whereas Bane was able to absorb such a magnitude of lightning, that after containing it, and then re-directing it, it was stated that he would have been capable of destroying the entire planet of Ruusan.

False. Now, other than the Byss Drain- and you are correct about the fact that like Nihilus', few details are known about it- Sidious did manage the capacity to perform the impressive ritual. There is absolutely nothing saying that the Ancient Sith directly intervened in it; it was also possible they were merely observing in approval. There is no way to prove that they were helping.

Also note that this little ritual seen in Sithisis was possibly the most impressive Dark Side ritual ever seen, as it unleashed lightning storms ALL over Coruscant, and enveloped the whole planet in the shroud of the dark side, even disturbing Yoda, who was the greatest presence of the light in history, save for the later NJO Luke, and driving Anakin into a complete berserker rage simply due to triggering the small dark side presence within him. The effected the planet of a very 'planetary' level, and was used by ROTS Sidious.

If we're arguing capacity to wield the dark side, as Bane hardly performed the ritual on his own, then let me tell you something; Sidious' dark side presence was sufficient to completely scar him and ravage his mortal frame, to the greatest extent the usage of the dark side had upon someone. Later, during DE, when one of the clones wielding the same power as ROTS Sidious was literally decaying due to the presence of the immensely strong power of the dark side. As Sidious himself stated; "Flesh does not easily support this great power".

Also note that Sidious is, at certain times, implied to be a so-called 'black hole in the force', his extensive, sheer power in the dark side causing the dark side to grow in the galaxy, enclouding the vision of the Jedi, weakening them, increasing the power of the dark side; although the disturbance could be seen and felt by the Jedi, none could ever sense that it was in fact Sidious; Sidious shrouded himself in the dark side aura that blinded the strongest of Jedi. I'd like to see Bane, Nihilus, Traya, or w/e replicate that.

Originally posted by Kadesh
Again, no indication is given, and given that he was draining their life force to prolong his own, there would have never been any need for him to drain more than one or two inhabitants (depending on their vitality) at any given time.

Then maybe Nihilus drained them one-by-one? How about that?

It fails. Sidious was likely slowly leeching the life out of them, in order to prolong his vitality.


Originally posted by Kadesh
Actually, they're not. It was described in Unseen, Unheard, by Visas Marr, that "when spoke, every living thing on Katarr died." Given that she was present, and as a Miralakula, naturally relied on the Force as her primary sense (and thus would have been more in tune with sensing deaths through the Force and such than the average Force User), it's likely that she would have been able to sense the mass disturbance of life through the Force, and the way she describes it would indicate that it was a singular action.

Visas Marr was a FALLIBLE in-universe character, and it so happens that she was in a comlpete awe of Nihilus, being as apprentice and fearing him to an incredible extent. As such, she cannot be used as a completely reliable source, at least much less so than the 'non-canon' NEC. Selective choosings of what is canon, I see.

Originally posted by Kadesh
Firstly, tangible Force attacks are just about the most ineffective attacks against other Force Users that there are, because not only would they have to get past the Force User's Force defences in the first place, but then any physical defences as well, in this case, the Force User's lightsaber. You'd have to be far more powerful than your opponent to be able to successfully overpower them with a Force lightning attack, and as it stands, Palpatine hasn't displayed anything that would indicate that he was even more powerful than any of his opponents, let alone the two more powerful of the group (Sion and Nihilus), and by high enough of a degree.

By that logic, Sidious is far more powerful than Yoda, as he successfully hurled his lightsaber away from his grip and nearly overpowered him with a force lightning attack.

Sion and Nihilus AREN'T the strongest of the group; Traya would comfortably beat Sion, but Nihilus would rape her in the force. Sidious' force lightning was used to such a potency that it was capable of reducing people to ashes, destroy massive amounts of people (You can go on and rant about Bane being able to do that, but I'd like to see you prove it), while all something like Bane's lightning could do was get deflected back to him by a second-class Jedi and almost be killed.

Sidious' lightning was extremely potent. As Sion never used the force, and Nihilus/Traya chose to focus on drain, it can be safely assumed that their lightning is no where near as strong as Sidious', as it was his preferred force power. And he was the strongest Sith Lord in history, despite the fact that you clearly choose to ignore it.


Originally posted by Kadesh
Substantiate this, because while it's somewhat impressive, when dealing with the likes of the beings within the Sith Triumvirate, it really doesn't scream uber. If anything, it indicates that he wasn't even strong enough to overpower someone on the level of Mace Windu.

LOL! LOL! LOL!

'On the level of Mace Windu'? The guy who was arguably the second strongest Jedi, next to Yoda? Lol. Windu was capable of extreme force power usage, such as crushing duranium, pwning seismic tanks, armies of battle droids, and Kar Vaster- master his own self-created form, called 'the deadliest', move at inhuman speeds, and perceive shatterpoint? If you even think for a second that Mace isn't stronger than any one of the triumvirate, you're still being delusional. Aside from his force powers- and he can use his Vaapad to reflect them, thus shielding himself from most non-physical force-powers- he can crush any of them.

Traya, Sion, and Nihilus were good, but they weren't as 'uber' as you would like to claim. Aside from Nihilus, they did almost nothing impressive.

Originally posted by Kadesh
Is anyone supposed to care? Until you can prove it, it's worthless to bring up.

The ROTS novel proved that Sidious was overpowering Windu, and that Windu even admitted to be incapable of defeating Sidious. Now then, Sidious suddenly stopped the attack... why? Maybe because Anakin doesn't need to see his just master be fried to ashes by his mentor?



Originally posted by Kadesh
1. Prove that they would have even been prepared to defence against Sidious' attacks, because I just re-read the comic, and as it appears, Sidious completely came out of nowhere and caught them off guard.

They would see them, and I believe Sidious spoke to them... note that as they were powerful users of the dark side, and should be capable of deflecting a dark side attack. But nontheless, they WEREN'T capable of it. And I think that they would all be far better defended against the Dark Side than the Masters Traya pwned.

Originally posted by Kadesh
2. Since when was experimental application of the Force, something that's more organised if anything else, testament to ability with the Force?

Then going by this logic, any ritualistic usage of the dark side is not an indication of powerful usage of the force. Please. Don't give me that crap; it would require extreme power to be capable of animating a Sith Lord, nevermind someone as powerful as Maul, something no one else seemed to be able to do.

Originally posted by Kadesh
3. Again, we're dealing with RotS Sidious, not any later incarnation, here.

Then prove that ROTS Sidious > 10 years older Sidious.



Originally posted by Kadesh
It was less than 100 actually, as far as what we see from the comic, which is hardly unprecedented. Bane (I just can't help myself) was able to surpass it in pure scale a simple hour after having learnt the technique for the very first time.

Bane's lightning got deflected back to him by a second-rate Jedi. Not that impressive, is it?


Originally posted by Kadesh
I'd advise you not to, as it was completely ritualistic, and something that Sidious wouldn't logically be able to pull off and control well enough in a fast paced duel against three Sith Lords.

It took him about 3 seconds to summon it against DE Luke; who surpasses any of the Sith Lords in single combat; and it didn't appear to be stopped by Luke.



Originally posted by Kadesh
Contradicting G-Canon, anyone? As the movie shows, Anakin only arrived at the location in question after the duel had ended, meaning the novel, in this case, is N-Canon.

No, but it's similar to Infinities; its what would happen if Anakin came to see the duel, and seeing as George Lucas read the novel and approved it, he would tell them to change the part about Sidious' inhuman speed.



Originally posted by Kadesh
The first two: Agen and Saesee, he was able to take down through his superior Force enhanced speed alone. In no way an indication of lightsaber technique. As for the rest, you're committing a Fallacy of Division, asserting that feats that were achieved through a number of attributes, speak fully for a single attribute of your choosing.

Isn't speed a legitimate combat technique? Agen Kolar was called one of the greatest blade-beings in the history of the order, and I think some degree of technical skill is needed to take him down. By that logic, a super-fast human with absolutely no lightsaber prowess could take out a master swordsmen.

I'm referring to Lightsaber Skills; Mace was being pushed by Sidious, and it appeared like Sidious had the edge, while Yoda was forced to his limits in terms of saber skills by Sidious; once again, Yoda is the greatest Jedi ever at this point, meaning he's BEYOND the Exile, who incidentally happened to take out Sion, Nihilus, and Traya, so thus, Sidious > Exile. Thus, Sidious > Sith Triumvrate.



Originally posted by Kadesh
Nick Gillard is not even close to being a canon source or real authority on the matter. He's the stunt coordinator of the film, his opinion is only relevant on the choreography we see through the movies, not in any way on the story itself. You're appealing to authority in the worst possible way.

I've seen this "NG isn't canon!!!111!!" argument thousands of thousands of times. It's completely stupid. Nick Gillard was a participant on the set of ROTS, he CREATED the fighs and fighting styles of the characters as we see them in a movie; don't you think he has some word regarding the character's prowess? He is in direct contact with George Lucas and greatly influences him, and unless George Lucas approved with the concept of Sidious having uber saber skills, he wouldn't have let NG say it. Your direct argument against a canon source fails, once again.

Originally posted by Kadesh
Nihilus: able to destroy an entire Planet's inhabitants in what is described as one singular action, and this at a weakened stated. Stated to be at a level of power where he no longer perceived the universe like ordinary beings do.

Fallible characters, fallible characters.... How exactly do you take Traya's and Visas' words as absolute canon when you say NEC isn't canon? Decide if you trust characters. Traya could merely be exaggerrating Nihilus' power... Nihilus became unable to control his power, his unsatiable hunger. If he truly had such amazing mastery, he should have been able to control it perfectly.

Originally posted by Kadesh
Sion: able to cheat death, something completely unprecedented, which not only is indication of an extremely high level of power, but something that makes him near unstoppable in these versus threads.

Pure willpower. Anakin did the same; he would've died if he hadn't kept his will to live. Also, what if Sion's head got lopped off? What if the dark side energy holding him together would be destroyed by a far superior master of the force? What if Sidious simply mind-raped him to death? Sion is hardly an unbeatable character.

Originally posted by Kadesh
Traya: able to overpower three of the most powerful Jedi Masters of her time with no visible signs of effort, and possessed unparalleled levels of precognition, being able to see thousands of years into the future, and recall events with clarity and understanding.

Traya's precognition was also matched by Sidious, whose had a very remarkable precognition capability. Also, her feat of overpowering the three most powerful Jedi Masters was matched by Sidious, who did it with a lightsaber, and who also subsequently destroyed three Sith Acolyes, whose dark side defenses and knowledge could very well be beyond the Masters with a mere burst of force lightning. He also reduced a gigantic worm, a being created of the dark side, to ashes with a single gout of force lightning.

Originally posted by Kadesh
RotS Sidious hasn't even come close to displaying anything remarkable, or unprecedented, whereas all of the above three have, and based on what they've all shown, Sidious would get absolutely curbstomped by Sion or Nihilus, and solidly beaten by Traya.

Rofl. This just made me laugh. Sidious has displayed far more impressive abilities than they, but if what people say about you is true- I see no way you can actually understand this.

A note to the guy that said ROT Bane > ROTS Sidious... well, it's arguable, but I think Sidious stilll has him beaten in force mastery and lightsaber combat, but Bane has the orbalisk advantage. As such, he could possibly match Sidious in a saberfight (but in the novel, which is based on Lucas' initial perception of the fight, Sidious scored all of his killing blows with strikes to the head, Bane's vulnerable part), so it would be a good fight. I think Sidious would beat him, but after a fairly close fight.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
AGAIN he was channeling the power 25 OTHER Lords, meaning their power + his allowed him to be the focal point and conduit of the Force Storm. He was protected by their power.

AGAIN he absorbed all of it under his own power and ability, and the idea that their power was protecting him is:

a) Not once supported in the novel (which describes the ritual in great detail) or comic, and

b) At best, silly, considering how it was explicitly stated that to be the vessel for the ritual was not only extremely dangerous, but also required the user to be extremely powerful, which wouldn't make any sense if the other Sith Lords were simply using their own power to protect him.

Either way, Occam's Razor (which is fully admissible in speculative threads) dictates that my stance is the correct one, and it's your burden of proof to prove up on this ridiculous theory that the other Sith Lords were protecting Bane with their power.

So as it stands, everything Bane did was through his own ability and power, which, when putting everything into perspective, was one hell of an achievement, given that:

A) The magnitude of energy was described as being so potent that it would have been able to destroy the entire planet of Ruusan.

B) Bane was able to absorb that level of energy through all different parts of his body as the comic show us.

C) He was subsequently able to contain it, and protect himself internally from it.

D) And lastly, he was, after all of that, able to reach out in the Force, and redirect the energy across the surface of the entire Planet.

The entire showing puts anything we see from Sidious to shame, and this before Bane had gone on to study the Force for a further ten years and obtain the Force power enhancing orbalisk armour.



False comparison. Bane was actively absorbing the energy of the other Sith Lords on Ruusan when they all joined together for their Force Storm, whereas in Ro2, the Jedi Master (Worror) who trapped Bane and his lightning in the blue orb that he had he conjured was, by Bane, believed to be dead, and was described as conjuring the orb at the very instant that Bane unleashed the storm of lightning in question, meaning that Bane was logically caught off guard, and thus, wouldn't have been able to apply a defence.



The subatomic alterations had nothing to do with creating an ever lasting Sith holocron; take note of the page number I gave Sidi-Boy, he had been following that exact method for his very first attempts at making a Holocron.

It was the Rite of Commencement, as Belia described, that was the key to trapping the cognitive network within the capstone, which was the reason that Bane's earlier attempts at constructing holocrons had always failed (the cognitive network would always degrade before he could make the adjustments).

All that was stated, in regards to the precise subatomic alterations Bane had been making, was that he had been making them to ensure that each crystalline strand was properly in place within the holocron, however, not once in the entire book is it stated or implied that such an action was vital to a holocron's creation, and that there were no other alternatives, ergo, there's no logical basis in claiming that everyone within the mythos who had ever created a holocron would have had to go through the exact same procedure.

Meaning, as it stands, Bane is the only character within the mythos who can be argued to possess that kind of level of control, which speaks volumes, because it means that even when up against someone who's displayed more power than he has (which is a very select few), he would likely be able to focus his power on his opponents far more efficiently than they would be able to on him.



You're damn right it is nigga.



swtimeline.ru/?view=973&size=M&page=052

^Look at the upper two panels, we're quite clearly shown that the opposite was the case.



swtimeline.ru/?view=973&size=M&page=045

^The comic's right there, I just read it, and most of what happens appears to be pretty ambiguous to be honest, but either way, it's your burden of proof, as you made the original claims in regards to what's happening, so until you can prove that your interpretation of it is the absolute right one, the entire incident is worthless to bring up.

And again, the sheer fact that Palpatine had several Ancient Sith Spirits help him with the ritual in the first place further undermines it, and it wasn't even coming close to Nihilus' destruction of Katarr in the first place anyway.



The quote that Elite Hunter provided is the right one, though the source isn't. The statement actually came from Heritage of the Sith, yet another in-universe source, further undermining its value.



1. I'd personally question the canonicity of any movie novelisation fight scene (and by extension, the narration that's dependant on the actions that the scenes encompass), given that they generally heavily contradict the movie, and depict sequences of events that never actually happen in the movie. For example, the scene between Yoda and Sidious was completely one-sided, and made it out as if Sidious was kicking Yoda's ass all over the place, and that the Ancient Jedi Master was literally no match for him, yet as the movie shows us, that was clearly not the case: as we're shown, they were pretty damn close, and GL himself stated that the final segment of the battle was to highlight the fact that they were absolute equals, and the most powerful of their alignments: the dark side and light side, respectively.

So, and as it's your burden of proof, until you can prove that the entire scene, and the narration that comes with it, are fully canon, you have no point.

2. The statement in question, "most devastatingly powerful foe that the darkness had ever known," doesn't necessarily have to mean, that from a combat standpoint, Yoda was the most powerful Jedi there had ever been. I know that people just love to draw their narrow minded interpretations from ambiguous text, and treat said interpretations as fact, but the statement in question could just as easily amount to the fact that Yoda, having been fighting the darkside for centuries, where his defeats over the darkside were labelled a legion, was simply more devastating than any before him because not only was he a very powerful Jedi, but he had been fighting against the darkside for that long a time. That being said, the statement doesn't necessarily deny that there may have been Jedi before him with greater personal power; if anything, it would measure just how successfully you have been fighting against the darkside, which as I said, his 8 century life span could have had a lot to do with.

3. Even if Yoda had been the most powerful Jedi ever at that point in time, that doesn't necessarily indicate that he > Bane, because:

a) Bane is not a Jedi, or foe of the darkness, or whatever you want to call it, and

b) If you're someone that likes to think that the most powerful Jedi ever would only be matched by the most powerful Sith, no only is that far from being absolute, but the fact that GL has stated that the dark side is inherently the stronger of the two sides would appear to undermine such a theory.

Now those right there are three points that heavily undermine your position, so until you can properly address each and every one, you, again, have no point.

You still failed to address my points.

But even your points in this post are foolish; I mean, c'mon. Not even close to what Nihilus did on Katarr? Please. Give me a break. Coruscant is a far more populous planet than Katarr, and it seemed like the powers of Sidious' force storms seemed to affect the whole planet. Of coruse, you can still go on and rant about Nihilus being more impressive, but it's simply a stupid way of seeing things. Nihilus is impressive, but Sidious is CANONICALLY stronger.

How, exactly, could Bane's lightning be deflected back to him by a not particularly powerful, injured Jedi? Please. If his lightning was as powerful as you claim it to be, it would have WTFpwned the Jedi. It didn't.

Once again, selective canon, right? The novel isnt' canon because you don't feel like it. Once again, here's the law; it's non-canon if it directly contradicts G-Canon. It doesn't, so you can't say the novel is incorrect.

Now, the novel was pretty clear; "Most devestatingly POWERFUL foe the darkness had ever known' clearly means that he is the most POWERFUL foe of the darkness. Ever. If it was 'The greatest foe', or something like that, it would have been different, but it's pretty clear. And unless the Sith are miles and leagues ahead of Jedi, doesn't it make sense that Sidious, being the most powerful Sith Lord, would be able to stalemate Yoda, the most powerful Jedi?

Originally posted by Kadesh
AGAIN he absorbed all of it under his own power and ability, and the idea that their power was protecting him is:

a) Not once supported in the novel (which describes the ritual in great detail) or comic, and

b) At best, silly, considering how it was explicitly stated that to be the vessel for the ritual was not only extremely dangerous, but also required the user to be extremely powerful, which wouldn't make any sense if the other Sith Lords were simply using their own power to protect him.

Either way, Occam's Razor (which is fully admissible in speculative threads) dictates that my stance is the correct one, and it's your burden of proof to prove up on this ridiculous theory that the other Sith Lords were protecting Bane with their power.

So as it stands, everything Bane did was through his own ability and power, which, when putting everything into perspective, was one hell of an achievement, given that:

A) The magnitude of energy was described as being so potent that it would have been able to destroy the entire planet of Ruusan.

B) Bane was able to absorb that level of energy through all different parts of his body as the comic show us.

C) He was subsequently able to contain it, and protect himself internally from it.

D) And lastly, he was, after all of that, able to reach out in the Force, and redirect the energy across the surface of the entire Planet.

The entire showing puts anything we see from Sidious to shame, and this before Bane had gone on to study the Force for a further ten years and obtain the Force power enhancing orbalisk armour.



False comparison. Bane was actively absorbing the energy of the other Sith Lords on Ruusan when they all joined together for their Force Storm, whereas in Ro2, the Jedi Master (Worror) who trapped Bane and his lightning in the blue orb that he had he conjured was, by Bane, believed to be dead, and was described as conjuring the orb at the very instant that Bane unleashed the storm of lightning in question, meaning that Bane was logically caught off guard, and thus, wouldn't have been able to apply a defence.



The subatomic alterations had nothing to do with creating an ever lasting Sith holocron; take note of the page number I gave Sidi-Boy, he had been following that exact method for his very first attempts at making a Holocron.

It was the Rite of Commencement, as Belia described, that was the key to trapping the cognitive network within the capstone, which was the reason that Bane's earlier attempts at constructing holocrons had always failed (the cognitive network would always degrade before he could make the adjustments).

All that was stated, in regards to the precise subatomic alterations Bane had been making, was that he had been making them to ensure that each crystalline strand was properly in place within the holocron, however, not once in the entire book is it stated or implied that such an action was vital to a holocron's creation, and that there were no other alternatives, ergo, there's no logical basis in claiming that everyone within the mythos who had ever created a holocron would have had to go through the exact same procedure.

Meaning, as it stands, Bane is the only character within the mythos who can be argued to possess that kind of level of control, which speaks volumes, because it means that even when up against someone who's displayed more power than he has (which is a very select few), he would likely be able to focus his power on his opponents far more efficiently than they would be able to on him.



You're damn right it is nigga.



swtimeline.ru/?view=973&size=M&page=052

^Look at the upper two panels, we're quite clearly shown that the opposite was the case.



swtimeline.ru/?view=973&size=M&page=045

^The comic's right there, I just read it, and most of what happens appears to be pretty ambiguous to be honest, but either way, it's your burden of proof, as you made the original claims in regards to what's happening, so until you can prove that your interpretation of it is the absolute right one, the entire incident is worthless to bring up.

And again, the sheer fact that Palpatine had several Ancient Sith Spirits help him with the ritual in the first place further undermines it, and it wasn't even coming close to Nihilus' destruction of Katarr in the first place anyway.



The quote that Elite Hunter provided is the right one, though the source isn't. The statement actually came from Heritage of the Sith, yet another in-universe source, further undermining its value.



1. I'd personally question the canonicity of any movie novelisation fight scene (and by extension, the narration that's dependant on the actions that the scenes encompass), given that they generally heavily contradict the movie, and depict sequences of events that never actually happen in the movie. For example, the scene between Yoda and Sidious was completely one-sided, and made it out as if Sidious was kicking Yoda's ass all over the place, and that the Ancient Jedi Master was literally no match for him, yet as the movie shows us, that was clearly not the case: as we're shown, they were pretty damn close, and GL himself stated that the final segment of the battle was to highlight the fact that they were absolute equals, and the most powerful of their alignments: the dark side and light side, respectively.

So, and as it's your burden of proof, until you can prove that the entire scene, and the narration that comes with it, are fully canon, you have no point.

2. The statement in question, "most devastatingly powerful foe that the darkness had ever known," doesn't necessarily have to mean, that from a combat standpoint, Yoda was the most powerful Jedi there had ever been. I know that people just love to draw their narrow minded interpretations from ambiguous text, and treat said interpretations as fact, but the statement in question could just as easily amount to the fact that Yoda, having been fighting the darkside for centuries, where his defeats over the darkside were labelled a legion, was simply more devastating than any before him because not only was he a very powerful Jedi, but he had been fighting against the darkside for that long a time. That being said, the statement doesn't necessarily deny that there may have been Jedi before him with greater personal power; if anything, it would measure just how successfully you have been fighting against the darkside, which as I said, his 8 century life span could have had a lot to do with.

3. Even if Yoda had been the most powerful Jedi ever at that point in time, that doesn't necessarily indicate that he > Bane, because:

a) Bane is not a Jedi, or foe of the darkness, or whatever you want to call it, and

b) If you're someone that likes to think that the most powerful Jedi ever would only be matched by the most powerful Sith, no only is that far from being absolute, but the fact that GL has stated that the dark side is inherently the stronger of the two sides would appear to undermine such a theory.

Now those right there are three points that heavily undermine your position, so until you can properly address each and every one, you, again, have no point.


TLDR lulz...

I don't argue with socks, you'll be banned soon enough...Honestly even if you did prove your case (I wouldn't know, I didn't read it) I don't give a shit arguing the power of fictional characters in long drawn out "debates" aren't my passion any more, the only reason I responded in the first place cause I thought you were the "real" Kadesh.

Ugh. In me being rushed, I made some stupid mistakes on my post... I'll fix the most prominent one:

Originally posted by Kadesh
Substantiate this, because while it's somewhat impressive, when dealing with the likes of the beings within the Sith Triumvirate, it really doesn't scream uber. If anything, it indicates that he wasn't even strong enough to overpower someone on the level of Mace Windu.

LOL! LOL! LOL!

'On the level of Mace Windu'? The guy who was arguably the second strongest Jedi, next to Yoda? Lol. Windu was capable of extreme force power usage, such as crushing duranium, pwning seismic tanks, armies of battle droids, and Kar Vaster- master his own self-created form, called 'the deadliest', move at inhuman speeds, and perceive shatterpoint? If you even think for a second that Mace isn't stronger than any one of the triumvirate, you're still being delusional. Aside from his force powers- and he can use his Vaapad to reflect them, thus shielding himself from most non-physical force-powers- he can crush any of them.

Traya, Sion, and Nihilus were good, but they weren't as 'uber' as you would like to claim. Aside from Nihilus, they did almost nothing impressive..

Also note that I meant for you to prove that OT Sidious > ROTS Sidious.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Rofl. Cause you don't want it to be canon, it ISN'T canon? Lol. That's completely pathetic.Sound familiar?
Clearly, it is. A twenty-two year-old Maul overcame a Jedi Knight three years his senior and a Jedi Master of sixty. More examples? Exar Kun. Darth Vader. Krayt and his 'Hands.'

The Dark side is a quicker path to power, and ultimately, the more offensively inclined. Most Jedi would die against any given Sith Lord.
Except that Unseen, Unheard shows the entire planet being covered with a massive wave of black smoke that literally tears the flesh from its victims' bones.
It's a demonstration of Force mastery, and as such it isn't limited to one feat or another.
This is ludicrous. Just because it's on a large scale doesn't make it all that impressive, especially in the context of a vs. match. He went through several stages of preparation and used multiple devices, including a massive focusing crystal, in order to perform it, and even then all he did was create storms on Coruscant and cloud the Force with darkness. Most impressive ritual my ass; Exar Kun tears the life energy from an entire species in a ritual. Naga Sadow destroys entire star systems with his. Then of course, there's the thought bomb.
Same thing happened to Freedon Nadd. Not to mention that Bane was about half Sidious' age.
How about not, as has already been shown?
Slowly being the operative word. Nihilus did as much without trying. People around him simply deteriorated.
We see what happened, so it doesn't matter.
Right back at you.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
By that logic, Sidious is far more powerful than Yoda, as he successfully hurled his lightsaber away from his grip and nearly overpowered him with a force lightning attack.Sidious never 'overpowered' Yoda. He caught him by surprise the first time, and had a tremendous advantage in terms of position; he was snugly in the middle of the pod, while Yoda was hanging on to the very edge with his feet.
This is true. Nihilus > Traya > Sion.
So could Bane's, if you'd read RoT. His lightning filled a room meant to hold hundreds; Sith lightning electrocutes things. This, an hour after he'd first been taught the technique. RoT Bane has had over ten years to grow in power and mastery.
As Nebaris said; he was surprised. He had, after all, just slashed out all of Worror's four throats.
That's an idiotic reason to assume they're lightning is weaker. By that logic, Maul's Force-push > Sidious' Force-push, because he uses it more.
As I told Escape; the burden of proof is on you to prove that they were actually putting up a defense at the time of their deaths.
Prove it. You don't know what they did, so you can't proe that it required 'extreme power.'
What was so special about Maul's power? You even called his skills 'next to nothing.'
Typo, I'm assuming, and the OT Sidious is over twenty years his RotS self's senior. Plenty of time to expand his mastery of the Force.
Sidious got bench-pressed into a reactor core by a half-dead cyborg. So much for pwnage pre-cog, in case you mention that in the future.
All Jedi and Sith possess inhuman speed.
I'd be confused if you thought otherwise.
Do you enjoy using third-rate logic? Nihilus would've raped the Exile if he hadn't foolishly crippled himself by trying to drain her (IIRC, he was starving at the time). Sion would have eventually beaten her into the ground when she tired, since he's basically invincible. Traya is the only one she beat through he own skill, and even that can be questioned.
Right. Well I'm sure he 'personally approved' Ian McDiarmid stating that Palpatine moved five hundred times faster than anyone else.
I refer you to the Maul vs. Obi-Wan thread for multiple demonstrations of this on your part.
Anakin did not do the same. He hung on for a matter of hours, burned to a crisp and with his limbs missing. Sion was a walking corpse; his body was fractured in "thousands" of places, and he was literally holding himself together. Vader, without his suit, wouldn't last an hour in an open environment. The two aren't even comparable in that regard.

Sidi, here's what we see Nihilus do to Katarr.

"When my Lord spoke, every living thing on Katarr died."
http://img459.imageshack.us/img459/6753/nihiluszx9.jpg
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b107/Nik_TehPimpXor/Nihilus2.jpg

The effect that the Emperor had on Byss is amazing; consider that the Ultimate Visual Guide as well as numerous other sources state that he "rarely left his palace on Coruscant" -- yet, according to the Wizards.com article regarding Byss concludes that "Over time, the Emperor's dark side energies slowly corrupted the world and transformed it into one of the most powerful dark side sites in the entire galaxy"; "Slowly but steadily, he used his dark Force powers to enslave the people on the world and drain their life energies to fuel his own vile experiments."; "Almost mindless under the oppression of the Emperor's dark side influence, the people of Byss find their life energies constantly leeched off during the Emperor's evil machinations.".

So Palpatine turned a dead world into one of the most powerful dark side sites in the galaxy, despite the fact that he was hardly there, and slowly drained the lives of its inhabitants to prolong their lives.

I'm not diminishing the feat, but it's nature is not similar to that of Nihilus' planet-consuming assault, and certainly not more immediately impressive as a show of power.

Originally posted by Faunus
Clearly, it is. A twenty-two year-old Maul overcame a Jedi Knight three years his senior and a Jedi Master of sixty. More examples? Exar Kun. Darth Vader. Krayt and his 'Hands.'

The Dark side is a quicker path to power, and ultimately, the more offensively inclined. Most Jedi would die against any given Sith Lord.

That's correct, the dark side is- inherently- stronger, but I'm not talking about the 'average' Jedi, but rather about the GRANDMASTER of the Jedi Order, the greatest Jedi in history; it's true that 95% of the Order would die against a REAL Sith, but Yoda is in the top .0001%. He would likely beat Exar Kun, Maul, Vader, and Krayt in single combat. That's simply speculation.

Originally posted by Faunus
that Unseen, Unheard shows the entire planet being covered with a massive wave of black smoke that literally tears the flesh from its victims' bones.

I see. I didn't know that- if it is, the feat is all the more impressive. Although remember there is the possibility that Nihilus required the Ancient Sith or a prolonged ritual in order to use a drain of that size.

Originally posted by Faunus
It's a demonstration of Force mastery, and as such it isn't limited to one feat or another.

Then Sidious' ritual is also a display of force mastery, and thus relevant to this argument. And like someone else posted, Sidious could have made the same sub-atomic alterations.

Originally posted by Faunus
This is ludicrous. Just because it's on a large scale doesn't make it all that impressive, especially in the context of a vs. match. He went through several stages of preparation and used multiple devices, including a massive focusing crystal, in order to perform it, and even then all he did was create storms on Coruscant and cloud the Force with darkness. Most impressive ritual my ass; Exar Kun tears the life energy from an entire species in a ritual. Naga Sadow destroys entire star systems with his. Then of course, there's the thought bomb.
Same thing happened to Freedon Nadd. Not to mention that Bane was about half Sidious' age.

The Thought Bomb wasn't created by ONE Sith. Naga Sadow used his ship's technology almost exclusively in his ritual. And you're saying Sidious isn't impressive? Please... the only preparation that was required was eating a worm, other than that, Sidious unleashed devestating lightning storms and clouded the MIND of the people on coruscant. It's a lot easier to affect the body than the mind.
How about not, as has already been shown?

Originally posted by Faunus
Slowly being the operative word. Nihilus did as much without trying. People around him simply deteriorated.

Due to his mere dark side presence. And there is the possibility that the draining of a planet was a result of a prolonged ritual, or the Ancient Sith helped, etc.

Originally posted by Faunus
We see what happened, so it doesn't matter.
Right back at you.

Right back at me? My argument against Anoon was stupid, I admit, but it's less stupid than refusing to accept a blanket statement saying that Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord in history- as Sidious has actual feats to back that up, and Anoon has done nothing impressive other than get killed.

Originally posted by Faunus
Sidious never 'overpowered' Yoda. He caught him by surprise the first time, and had a tremendous advantage in terms of position; he was snugly in the middle of the pod, while Yoda was hanging on to the very edge with his feet.

There's nothing to say that the edge was any slippery, since Yoda appeared to be rather stable on it; his lightsaber was blown out of his hands, that's a fact. Seeing as Yoda has a far better chance of hurting Sidious with his lightsaber, I really see no reason why he wouldn't guard his lightsaber.

Originally posted by Faunus
So could Bane's, if you'd read RoT. His lightning filled a room meant to hold hundreds; Sith lightning electrocutes things. This, an hour after he'd first been taught the technique. RoT Bane has had over ten years to grow in power and mastery.

If the lightning was on that big a scale, it was possible that the lightning itself was of a weaker potency than Sidious', despite filling the same space. Remember, one hour after he learned the technique... I doubt he's gonna pull out some Sidious-level lightning. RoT Bane had the main advantage of the orbalisk armor, and while he is better than the original Bane, experience isn't everything. And Sidious has far more experience than Bane.
Originally posted by Faunus
As Nebaris said; he was surprised. He had, after all, just slashed out all of Worror's four throats.

Hell he was surprised. I'm not arguing that Bane should have blocked the lightning; but if his force lightning was really as strong as you say- and it would be aimed to killing intensity- then it WOULDN'T have been deflected by a severely injured second-rate Jedi.

Originally posted by Faunus
That's an idiotic reason to assume they're lightning is weaker. By that logic, Maul's Force-push > Sidious' Force-push, because he uses it more.

Not really lol. The Triumvrate specialized in using force drain- it was their most potent force power. Sidious, meanwhile, specialized in utilizing lightning. Use your brain- the specialist, most-used power is generally also your best power. And as Sidious is AT LEAST as strong in the force as Traya and Nihilus, Sidious should be capable of a lightning beyond their's.

Originally posted by Faunus
As I told Escape; the burden of proof is on you to prove that they were actually putting up a defense at the time of their deaths.
Prove it. You don't know what they did, so you can't proe that it required 'extreme power.'
What was so special about Maul's power? You even called his skills 'next to nothing.'

Then prove that the masters were trying to defend against Traya. If not, they were simply human beings being hit by a drain. The Dark Side sourcebook, I believe, claims that Sith Alchemy requires great power; if that is so, those Dark Side Prophets wouldn't have been weaklings. Maul is an exceptionally strong being, I merely exaggerrated previously, maybe he's not top-tier, but he's definetly no weakling.

Originally posted by Faunus
Typo, I'm assuming, and the OT Sidious is over twenty years his RotS self's senior. Plenty of time to expand his mastery of the Force.

True. But, regardless, we saw ROTS Sidious use the mind-effecting dark side powers and lightning (as seen when he disintegrated a Sith Wyrm) with very high potency.

Originally posted by Faunus
Sidious got bench-pressed into a reactor core by a half-dead cyborg. So much for pwnage pre-cog, in case you mention that in the future.

Traya tried to kill the exile. If her precog was as uber, she'd know she was going down, and her entire plan will fail. Sidious was caught from behind by his apprentice, something he didn't expect DUE to his arrogance, and, despite his lightning not being directly at Vader, it killed him. Vader is a being of extreme resilience, and if Sidious' lightningk illed him- despite being directed in the opposite direction- then it's another impressive feat.


Originally posted by Faunus
All Jedi and Sith possess inhuman speed.

But not to the same extent. In all of his fights, you can see Sidious moving as a blur, attacking etremely rapidly... hell, you can even SEE him striking with extreme speed in his fight against Yoda in the movie.

Originally posted by Faunus
I'd be confused if you thought otherwise.

Oh, really? A super-fast human being with no skill whatsoever CANNOT defeat a master swordsman. Technique is VERY important, and SOME skill is needed, along with the insane speed, to kill three of the order's greatest swordsmen in history in the space of 10 seconds.

Originally posted by Faunus
Do you enjoy using third-rate logic? Nihilus would've raped the Exile if he hadn't foolishly crippled himself by trying to drain her (IIRC, he was starving at the time). Sion would have eventually beaten her into the ground when she tired, since he's basically invincible. Traya is the only one she beat through he own skill, and even that can be questioned.

I'm talking about primarily saber skills; the force drain probably wouldn't have weakened Nihilus' saber skills, and the Exile would've killed Sion NUMEROUS times if it wasn't for his regeneration ability. Traya got her hand lopped off, although lightsaber combat, indeed, wasn't her speciality, and she still had only one hand. They all got beat by the Exile, and since Yoda > Exile, and Sidious = Yoda, then logically Sidious could WTFpwn them in saber combat alone.

Also, in regards to force powers, remember that if the Exile had no force powers, she couldn't have survived the assaults made by Kreia during her fight with her.

Originally posted by Faunus
Right. Well I'm sure he 'personally approved' Ian McDiarmid stating that Palpatine moved five hundred times faster than anyone else.

It was Lucas' idea, probably, that Sidious was an extremely fast swordsman. Ian was simply exaggerrating; it's obivious to everyone, and something as obiviously unrealistic as what he said should not be taken absolutely seriously. However, NG saying Sidious was a master of all forms and a top-tiered swordsman is NOT unlikely.

Originally posted by Faunus
demonstrations of this on your part.
Anakin did not do the same. He hung on for a matter of hours, burned to a crisp and with his limbs missing. Sion was a walking corpse; his body was fractured in "thousands" of places, and he was literally holding himself together. Vader, without his suit, wouldn't last an hour in an open environment. The two aren't even comparable in that regard.

Sion's willpower was great- its true- but it doesn't require specific mastery to use the force to keep you alive. It's simply the desire to live, hate, anger... it's not likely becoming a Force Ghost. And Sion's willpower got shattered by the Exile, someone who probably doesn't even come close to having Sidious' manipulative abiltiy and intelligence.

Anyway, end result of the fight;

Sidious: Dead
Nihilus: Alive
Traya: Alive
Sion: Probably dead

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
There's nothing to say that the edge was any slippery, since Yoda appeared to be rather stable on it; his lightsaber was blown out of his hands, that's a fact. Seeing as Yoda has a far better chance of hurting Sidious with his lightsaber, I really see no reason why he wouldn't guard his lightsaber.



If the lightning was on that big a scale, it was possible that the lightning itself was of a weaker potency than Sidious', despite filling the same space. Remember, one hour after he learned the technique... I doubt he's gonna pull out some Sidious-level lightning. RoT Bane had the main advantage of the orbalisk armor, and while he is better than the original Bane, experience isn't everything. And Sidious has far more experience than Bane.


Hell he was surprised. I'm not arguing that Bane should have blocked the lightning; but if his force lightning was really as strong as you say- and it would be aimed to killing intensity- then it WOULDN'T have been deflected by a severely injured second-rate Jedi.



Not really lol. The Triumvrate specialized in using force drain- it was their most potent force power. Sidious, meanwhile, specialized in utilizing lightning. Use your brain- the specialist, most-used power is generally also your best power. And as Sidious is AT LEAST as strong in the force as Traya and Nihilus, Sidious should be capable of a lightning beyond their's.



Then prove that the masters were trying to defend against Traya. If not, they were simply human beings being hit by a drain. The Dark Side sourcebook, I believe, claims that Sith Alchemy requires great power; if that is so, those Dark Side Prophets wouldn't have been weaklings. Maul is an exceptionally strong being, I merely exaggerrated previously, maybe he's not top-tier, but he's definetly no weakling.



True. But, regardless, we saw ROTS Sidious use the mind-effecting dark side powers and lightning (as seen when he disintegrated a Sith Wyrm) with very high potency.



Traya tried to kill the exile. If her precog was as uber, she'd know she was going down, and her entire plan will fail. Sidious was caught from behind by his apprentice, something he didn't expect DUE to his arrogance, and, despite his lightning not being directly at Vader, it killed him. Vader is a being of extreme resilience, and if Sidious' lightningk illed him- despite being directed in the opposite direction- then it's another impressive feat.




But not to the same extent. In all of his fights, you can see Sidious moving as a blur, attacking etremely rapidly... hell, you can even SEE him striking with extreme speed in his fight against Yoda in the movie.



Oh, really? A super-fast human being with no skill whatsoever CANNOT defeat a master swordsman. Technique is VERY important, and SOME skill is needed, along with the insane speed, to kill three of the order's greatest swordsmen in history in the space of 10 seconds.



I'm talking about primarily saber skills; the force drain probably wouldn't have weakened Nihilus' saber skills, and the Exile would've killed Sion NUMEROUS times if it wasn't for his regeneration ability. Traya got her hand lopped off, although lightsaber combat, indeed, wasn't her speciality, and she still had only one hand. They all got beat by the Exile, and since Yoda > Exile, and Sidious = Yoda, then logically Sidious could WTFpwn them in saber combat alone.

Also, in regards to force powers, remember that if the Exile had no force powers, she couldn't have survived the assaults made by Kreia during her fight with her.



It was Lucas' idea, probably, that Sidious was an extremely fast swordsman. Ian was simply exaggerrating; it's obivious to everyone, and something as obiviously unrealistic as what he said should not be taken absolutely seriously. However, NG saying Sidious was a master of all forms and a top-tiered swordsman is NOT unlikely.


Originally posted by Faunus
Anakin did not do the same. He hung on for a matter of hours, burned to a crisp and with his limbs missing. Sion was a walking corpse; his body was fractured in "thousands" of places, and he was literally holding himself together. Vader, without his suit, wouldn't last an hour in an open environment. The two aren't even comparable in that regard.

Sion's willpower was great- its true- but it doesn't require specific mastery to use the force to keep you alive. It's simply the desire to live, hate, anger... it's not likely becoming a Force Ghost. And Sion's willpower got shattered by the Exile, someone who probably doesn't even come close to having Sidious' manipulative abiltiy and intelligence.

Anyway, end result of the fight;

Sidious: Dead
Nihilus: Alive
Traya: Alive
Sion: Probably dead

1. There's nothing to say that the edge was any slippery, since Yoda appeared to be rather stable on it; his lightsaber was blown out of his hands, that's a fact. Seeing as Yoda has a far better chance of hurting Sidious with his lightsaber, I really see no reason why he wouldn't guard his lightsaber.

2. If the lightning was on that big a scale, it was possible that the lightning itself was of a weaker potency than Sidious', despite filling the same space. Remember, one hour after he learned the technique... I doubt he's gonna pull out some Sidious-level lightning. RoT Bane had the main advantage of the orbalisk armor, and while he is better than the original Bane, experience isn't everything. And Sidious has far more experience than Bane.

3. Hell he was surprised. I'm not arguing that Bane should have blocked the lightning; but if his force lightning was really as strong as you say- and it would be aimed to killing intensity- then it WOULDN'T have been deflected by a severely injured second-rate Jedi.

4. Not really lol. The Triumvrate specialized in using force drain- it was their most potent force power. Sidious, meanwhile, specialized in utilizing lightning. Use your brain- the specialist, most-used power is generally also your best power. And as Sidious is AT LEAST as strong in the force as Traya and Nihilus, Sidious should be capable of a lightning beyond their's.

5. Then prove that the masters were trying to defend against Traya. If not, they were simply human beings being hit by a drain. The Dark Side sourcebook, I believe, claims that Sith Alchemy requires great power; if that is so, those Dark Side Prophets wouldn't have been weaklings. Maul is an exceptionally strong being, I merely exaggerrated previously, maybe he's not top-tier, but he's definetly no weakling.

6. True. But, regardless, we saw ROTS Sidious use the mind-effecting dark side powers and lightning (as seen when he disintegrated a Sith Wyrm) with very high potency.

7. Traya tried to kill the exile. If her precog was as uber, she'd know she was going down, and her entire plan will fail. Sidious was caught from behind by his apprentice, something he didn't expect DUE to his arrogance, and, despite his lightning not being directly at Vader, it killed him. Vader is a being of extreme resilience, and if Sidious' lightningk illed him- despite being directed in the opposite direction- then it's another impressive feat.

8. But not to the same extent. In all of his fights, you can see Sidious moving as a blur, attacking etremely rapidly... hell, you can even SEE him striking with extreme speed in his fight against Yoda in the movie.

9. Oh, really? A super-fast human being with no skill whatsoever CANNOT defeat a master swordsman. Technique is VERY important, and SOME skill is needed, along with the insane speed, to kill three of the order's greatest swordsmen in history in the space of 10 seconds.

10. I'm talking about primarily saber skills; the force drain probably wouldn't have weakened Nihilus' saber skills, and the Exile would've killed Sion NUMEROUS times if it wasn't for his regeneration ability. Traya got her hand lopped off, although lightsaber combat, indeed, wasn't her speciality, and she still had only one hand. They all got beat by the Exile, and since Yoda > Exile, and Sidious = Yoda, then logically Sidious could WTFpwn them in saber combat alone.

11. Also, in regards to force powers, remember that if the Exile had no force powers, she couldn't have survived the assaults made by Kreia during her fight with her.

12. It was Lucas' idea, probably, that Sidious was an extremely fast swordsman. Ian was simply exaggerrating; it's obivious to everyone, and something as obiviously unrealistic as what he said should not be taken absolutely seriously. However, NG saying Sidious was a master of all forms and a top-tiered swordsman is NOT unlikely.

13. Sion's willpower was great- its true- but it doesn't require specific mastery to use the force to keep you alive. It's simply the desire to live, hate, anger... it's not likely becoming a Force Ghost. And Sion's willpower got shattered by the Exile, someone who probably doesn't even come close to having Sidious' manipulative abiltiy and intelligence.

Anyway, end result of the fight;

Sidious: Dead
Nihilus: Alive
Traya: Alive
Sion: Probably dead

WTF?!?!

My computer screwed up. Badly. It caused me to make the same post in different versions about 5 times :s...

so do those comics you showed reveal anything more about nihilus than was already known from KOTOR 2? (i admit i hadn't seen that either, and had questioned whether his draining the planet was instantaneous)

Missed this yesterday:
Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Traya's precognition was also matched by Sidious, whose had a very remarkable precognition capability.Well, would you look at that. I'm psychic.

And you need to validate this statement. Traya managed to forsee the death of Jango Fett at the hands of Mace Windu. What's Sidious done to match that?

He killed one enemy in actual combat with a strike to the head; Kit Fisto, who has nothing on Bane. And Lucas' "original intentions" don't really matter, although that version was a hell of a lot better than the garbage we got in the movie.

I'll get to the rest later.

Originally posted by Faunus
Missed this yesterday:
Well, would you look at that. I'm psychic.

And you need to validate this statement. Traya managed to forsee the death of Jango Fett at the hands of Mace Windu. What's Sidious done to match that?

Traya was not exactly clear of the EXACT causes of death; of course, she said that the last Mandalorian would be killed by a Jedi, but she didn't exactly explicitly list the circumstance- as such, there's a possibility she only got a glimpse into what happened. Also note that Sidious was perfectly certain of his plans at all times, and although he never displayed precognition on that level, his short-range precognition appears to be as good as Traya's. Long-range precognition will not matter in an actual fight.

Originally posted by Faunus
He killed one enemy in actual combat with a strike to the head; Kit Fisto, who has nothing on Bane. And Lucas' "original intentions" don't really matter, although that version was a hell of a lot better than the garbage we got in the movie.

I'll get to the rest later.

Saesee Tiin, in the novel, was beheaded. Kolar was stabbed in the head. Kit Fisto was behead. And I hardly see the movie version as 'crap', it was good, but some disappointing things- like Mace's speed and Sidious' weird performance on the ledge- made it ultimately inferior to the novel.

George Lucas scrapped the idea because he believed it to be too violent. Also, it's irrelevant, but it does show that Lucas envisioned Sidious to have a penchant for head-level attacks. As Sidious' lightsaber skills at the very least matched Bane's (remember, his multi-combatant fight was with people who I doubt were much stronger than Kit Fisto level, and he would've been killed by the battlemaster if it wasn't for his armor), I don't see why Sidious couldn't simply strike Bane to the head or to the wrist and finish this. But w/e, this isn't a Sidious vs. RoT Bane thread...

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Traya was not exactly clear of the EXACT causes of death; of course, she said that the last Mandalorian would be killed by a Jedi, but she didn't exactly explicitly list the circumstance- as such, there's a possibility she only got a glimpse into what happened.Still, a ridiculously accurate prediction.
So when Sidious is outclassed in a department, it "doesn't matter"?

lol
"In combat." He tricked Saesee and Agen in the novel, he didn't outduel them.
It was garbage. Sidious' slaughter of the Jedi Masters was the worst choreographed sequence in SW by far, and ultimately unrealistic given when we know of said Jedi in the EU. Mace is one of my favorite characters, as is Palpatine amongst the Sith (in some depictions), but I hated that fight. The novel's version was darker, more brutal, far more believable, and completely superior in every possible way.
Probably, but the orbalisks give Bane an inherent advantage in combat.
You haven't read any of RoT, have you?

Raskta was the best duelist in the Order, bar none, and Farfalla ascended to the head of the Army of Light after Hoth's death. Both in the most militant era in Jedi history. Johun was utter garbage, but the battlemaster managed even to use his style to her advantage. And, they were being boosted considerably by Worror's powerful battle meditation.
Stupid argument. This is like 'Mace would've sucked without Vaapad and shatterpoint.' Just stupid.

Bane's fighting style evolved around his armor; he uses it to his advantage in every way, allowing him to focus completely on the offense while blocking any strikes with his body. Which is why he's practically unstoppable in personal combat, bar a few select characters in the SW saga.
Because Bane fended off attacks from three BM'd Jedi at once (four lightsabers, thanks to Raskta's dual blades), all aimed at his face. As fast as Sidious is, he can't match that. And by your logic; I wonder why Traya can't just WTFpwn Sidious on her own with her drain, cuz she did it to three prominent Jedi Masters at once.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Lol, so YOU'RE this "Noobaris"? The guy who was called the biggest Bane fanboy in history? Well... it makes perfect sense now...

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No..



Rofl. Strawman? Lol.



You're right; that was.



I'm sure they were as well, but being "quite well-informed" doesn't make their opinion factual, hence you looking like a fool every time you try to treat it as such.



By that logic, you can look through any relatively accurate real world encyclopedia, pick out any blanket statement that's subjective by nature inside, and claim it to be a fact, simply because no already established fact disagrees with it.

As Faunus was saying, do you actually enjoy using third-rate logic?



No, it's not. I've read DE, as has nearly everybody here, and if I had somehow magically missed something as significant out (I didn't), it's pretty clear that at least one of the pro Sidious "faction" would have made such an observation.

Either way, pretending that we all did fail to spot such a key point, provide an exact quote, and page number, or quit being so persistently idiotic.



You're in no position to shift the burden of proof. Pretending that such a quote does exist, the burden of proof falls on you to prove that RotS Sidious is just as powerful as the exact incarnation that the statement would be referring to.



You are.



Moron, much? I was quite clearly asking for a quote for the supposed Dark Empire statement.



In other words, you're basing your entire argument off of hearsay. Smart.



Please explain how " logic" has any relevance whatsoever on the argument that follows this statement.



Most devastatingly powerful foe of the darkness, actually, which Yoda having been in a position to fight against it for centuries could most certainly have a lot to do with.

As I was saying, when you measure how devastatingly powerful someone is towards something, the length of time they would be in a position to work against it has everything to do with how devastating they might be towards it.

Either way, it's your burden of proof, so prove that the statement definitively fits your exact definition, and that definition alone, or drop the point.



Bingo.



Good Lord you're dense. Refer to Faunus's Maul/Sidious/Force Push analogy; your logic fails.

You're narrowing everything down to each individual ability, and then comparing character X and Y through their demonstrations of each individual ability alone, and it's quite frankly stupid. It's exactly like how True Jedi was making an argument for Obi-Wan being the number one long jumper in the Star Wars Olympics.



Which is exactly why it makes Nihilus that powerful. You don't simply look at what he does, and think, wow, that guy's got some awesome draining skills. You look at what he does, and determine what kind of level of power and mastery such an action would demand, and it puts him far above Sidious with his street level lightning.



Said fallible character was present at the time, was able to see the direct effect of Nihilus' drain through the Force, and was shown to be directing her speech to the audience, which within the medium of comics, is a method the writers use to convey what is factually the case, using a character as the mouth piece, for added effect.



For a reason.

And being in extreme awe of his power isn't something that would put her in denial, or cause her to mentally distort facts.



Or more like as the comic shows us.



As I explained to Styles, nothing indicates that such an action was vital in the creation of holocrons, and as it stands, Sidious hasn't displayed anything that would indicate that his level of Force Mastery compares.

You could bring up his greater experience, but that could just as easily be countered by bringing up evidence of Bane's insane learning rate.



As Faunus stated, it's a demonstration of Force mastery, and would indicate that in a versus scenario, even when up against people who have displayed more power, he would likely be able to focus his powers more efficiently.



Meaning you were wrong, yeah.



Are you confusing what he does in Sithisis with his Byss drain, or did you mean to say "another impressive ritual" or "an impressive ritual" rather than "the impressive ritual?" Because the wording makes little sense.



However their appearance there is suspect at the very least, and I was right in saying what I did in so much as the burden of proof is on you, and you lack the proof that would suggest otherwise.



Your burden of proof, not mine, and as was said, he also relied on the focusing crystal, which is no less than what Sadow used to make a Sun go nova.



No indication that the entirety of the Planet is given, so that's an unsupported assumption there on your part, and for your laughable assertion that it was possibly the most impressive Dark Side ritual ever seen, see Faunus' post (take note also that, and as I just said, the only "technology" that Sadow was required was Sith focusing crystals, no more than what Sidious required).



He absorbed the energy through all different parts of his body on his own, contained it all on his own (while protecting himself from it internally), and reached out through the Force and redirected it across the Planet's surface, again, on his own. Nothing Sidious has ever done even remotely compares in terms of demonstrated power.

1. That it had a greater effect on Sidious' body than any before him begs for proof.

2. Even if that was the case, you act as if that somehow translates into his darkside presence being more powerful than that of any before him, when there would logically be many other factors involved, such as:

A) How physically condition the mortal body is.

B) The control one had over their power.

C) Their willpower.

D) For how long they had been using the darkside for, and to what extent.

The effect that the dark side had on his body could just as easily be attributed to a lack of control, willpower, (in comparison) or the negative side of any of the above factors just as much as how powerful his dark side presence is, ergo, you have no argument.

3. You do realise, of course, that this is no way applies to beings who don't possess living bodies (Nihilus, and Andeddu, and arguably Sion and Simus as well), and likely to Orbalisk Bane as well given how the orbalisks constantly rejuvenated his body, and possibly to any Force User who used the Force to preserve or strengthen their bodies or were able to counteract the dark side's negative effects on their bodies through other means.



Unsubstantiated hyperbole?



That had actually been happening ever since the Ro2 had been put into place, likely due to the fact that the dark side was being concentrated to a far greater degree than ever before.



Feat Wars?

Clearly such an action isn't fully testament to personal power from a combat standpoint, otherwise the likes of Yoda and Mace Windu (who were as vulnerable to Sidious' powers as anyone within the Order) wouldn't have been the fair matches for him that they were.



As has been established, no.



Which is exactly what makes the feat pail in comparison to the quick destruction of the inhabitants of Katarr.



I've already covered this.



The difference is, the lightning made contact with Yoda's lightsaber first (which did nothing to reduce the amount of the lightning), and then his Force defence.

The Force Shield (which has always been a basic ability), as Ro2 shows us, counteracts with the lightning before any physical contact is made, reduces its amount, and if any gets through, it still has to get past the Jedi/Sith's lightsaber, and it's something that any Force User would be able to conjure up, as long as they're in a ready position (and the rules of these threads would dictate that all combatants be in a ready position for the start of the fight at the very least).



All entirely subjective, and either way, in no way detracts from my overall argument.



Faunus already covered this, and while you think you may have countered his point, apparently you weren't able to quite grasp the fact that lightning is lightning: lethal by nature, and that you can't prove that the potency of the lightning he used against the stormtroopers was any greater than that used by Bane on one of his first attempts, meaning that scale is the only thing that can be compared, and it's something that was greater on Bane's part.



1. Worror, while not a combat orientated Jedi, was far from being second-class; it's made explicitly clear that he was a very powerful Jedi, and that he was a major player in the war.

2. He was described as "releasing his own power" when he conjured up the blue orb, a kamikaze type attack if you will, making it the most potent defencive manoeuvre we've ever seen in Star Wars.

3. Pretending that Worror's defencive orb really wasn't that powerful, you would only have a point if we had evidence that Bane's lightning attack was the upper limit of his power, when it's likely that it wasn't, considering:

a) It was at the end of an extremely long battle, and Bane would have likely been too exhausted to use all of his power at that point.

b) Bane believed everyone to be dead, with the exception of the weakest of the group, who at the time was missing an arm, and basically lying on the floor, powerless against him. From his perspective, there wouldn't have been a necessity to use that much power, so why would he? It was most likely a final casual effort to finish a battle that he had basically already won.



The fact that it was his preferred power doesn't change the fact that, by virtue of overall demonstration, we've seen far more from the likes of the Triumvirate that would indicate that their overall Force ability was much greater than his, and that's something that would be applicable through lightning, or any other technique in their arsenal.



No, I just don't take subjective opinions stated as facts by in-universe characters to be gospel.



Or maybe because he was too exhausted to continue? As I said, the burden of proof's on you, so bring proof to the table, or go home.



I don't believe they did. Either way, even if they had seen him, or they had spoken to him, that alone wouldn't amount to anything unless you could provide evidence that would suggest that they would have perceived him as a threat.



Given that these were some of the most powerful Jedi of their time (who had access to Sith Holocrons, and had fought in wars against darksiders in the past), and that these darksiders haven't displayed anything that relates to personal power, and that they were basically all non-combat orientated seers, it's doubtful.

And again, you haven't even provided any evidence that would suggest that these acolytes had put up a defence before Sidious confronted them anyway.



Which is usually the case. Doing something in an organised manner would usually imply that you're not capable of doing it in less time, or without going through certain steps, and in some cases, relying on the use of external objects or sacrifices and such.

The fact remains that what these acolytes did exactly is completely undefined, and as such, you can't really get much out of it; certainly not enough to claim that they would have been especially better ready to defend against Force attacks, and that's assuming that they even applied a defence in the first place.



Prove it.



Burden of proof fallacy.

Not RotS Sidious in a million years, and I'd argue DE Sidious as well.

The fact remains, regardless of your mad ramblings, that all of the Triumvirate have displayed both vast domination over other powerful Jedi, as well as completely unprecedented abilities. Sidious hasn't, and nothing that he's displayed would indicate that he's as powerful as any of them.

Originally posted by Faunus
Still, a ridiculously accurate prediction.
So when Sidious is outclassed in a department, it "doesn't matter"?

Sidious had never displayed having the capacity to see events with such clarity- at least, not that far in the distant future- but it won't matter in a fight, and doesn't necessarily mean Traya > Palpatine. It is a display to Traya's potency in the force- indeed, I admitted that she was almost as strong as Sidious in th force- but seeing as her only other impressive force feat, draining of three Jedi masters who you CANNOT prove were trying to defend themselves, was more than matched by Sidious' lightning, it still doesn't conclude that Traya > Sidious.

Originally posted by Faunus
lol
"In combat." He tricked Saesee and Agen in the novel, he didn't outduel them.
It was garbage. Sidious' slaughter of the Jedi Masters was the worst choreographed sequence in SW by far, and ultimately unrealistic given when we know of said Jedi in the EU. Mace is one of my favorite characters, as is Palpatine amongst the Sith (in some depictions), but I hated that fight. The novel's version was darker, more brutal, far more believable, and completely superior in every possible way.

I kind of liked the initial duel between Sidious and Mace (Sidious forcing Mace down the hallway) and Sidious' acrobatics during the duel, but yeah, other than that, the novel's version was superior.

Saesee was tricked, it's true, but Kolar- if his reflexes were sufficient good- should have been capable of at least attempting to defend himself. But since its contradicted by the movie DIRECTLY, it's non-canon... it's simply a sort of 'what-if'. And I liked it better, too.

Originally posted by Faunus
Probably, but the orbalisks give Bane an inherent advantage in combat.

That's true... but remember, the orbalisks can possibly be cracked by a sufficient powerful lightsaber blow, and seeing as Sidious was a percise and incredibly fast lightsaber combatant, you must not overlook the possibility that Sidious can strike him down. I'll admit that it'll be a VERY close match thanks to the orbalisks, but Sidious has, ultimately, a slightly better chance of winning.

Originally posted by Faunus
You haven't read any of RoT, have you?And, they were being boosted considerably by Worror's powerful battle meditation.

Oh, I know that alright. Raskta is an incredibly strong lightsaber duelist, there's no doubt about that... but then again, unlike the team that tackled Bane- Farfalla and Raskta, albeit being empowered by Worror's battle meditation- was inferior to a team of Mace Windu, Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar, and Saesee Tiin. I don't really believe that there was anything Farfalla has done, and we know that Jedi positionts aren't necessarily an indicator of strength (occasionally situations when knights surpass masters, council members being inferior to non-council members, etc...), so Farfalla being a Jedi Lord means next to nothing. Raskta even later considered him a hindrance in the battle; I'd assume she wasn't being arrogant.

Fisto, Kolar, and Tiin, however, were all proclaimed by the omniscent narrator to three of the best swordsmen in history, which makes them extremely formidable. Now, there is actual feats done by Fisto, at least, which PROVE him to be one of the best swordsmen in history. In AOTC, Obi-Wan managed to last against Dooku, an extremely impressive foe who we know has almost unrivaled skills with a saber, for a decent-lengthed time. Now, Obi-Wan, a Jedi Knight with 1 year more of experience and power gainage was stated to be Kit Fisto's inferior. And Sidious WTFpwned Kit Fisto while simultaneously fighting with Mace Windu. Bane, however, did not "WTFpwning" and was almost defeated by the battle meditation empowered-Raskta alone.

Originally posted by Faunus
Stupid argument. This is like 'Mace would've sucked without Vaapad and shatterpoint.' Just stupid.

I could say that Mace without shatterpoint could not have defeated Sidious, or things like that. It's those little advantages that are supposedly 'unfair' in combat... well, to be honest, I agree with you, it's stupid. But a matter of fact is- in terms of lightsaber skills excluding the orbalisks, Sidious is beyond Bane. And if he plays his cards right, he can kill Orbalisk Bane.

Originally posted by Faunus
Bane's fighting style evolved around his armor; he uses it to his advantage in every way, allowing him to focus completely on the offense while blocking any strikes with his body. Which is why he's practically unstoppable in personal combat, bar a few select characters in the SW saga.
Because Bane fended off attacks from three BM'd Jedi at once (four lightsabers, thanks to Raskta's dual blades), all aimed at his face. As fast as Sidious is, he can't match that. And by your logic; I wonder why Traya can't just WTFpwn Sidious on her own with her drain, cuz she did it to three prominent Jedi Masters at once.

Sidious, incidentally, happens to be one of these characters.

Sidious managed to WTFpwn three Jedi Masters who were confirmed to be some of the greatest swordsmen in history; I'd even go as far as to proclaim that aside from Raskta, they were possibly superior to anyone on the strike team against Bane. Lol, it's a better comparison than Traya's force drain because Bane did a similar thing; namely fight several Jedi of different power-levels (Raskta being fairly high, Johun being utter crap, etc...), while Sidious successfully pwned three confirmed, STRONG Jedi Masters in the space of 10 seconds.

Traya can't 'WTFpwn' Sidious with her drain just like Sidious can't 'WTFpwn' her with his lightning, because they were both extremely potent force wielders and can probably summon up defenses against that. And until you can prove that Traya > Sidious in the force, which goes against canon and feats, that point is moot.

But to be honest... why are we even debating this? Everyone knows Sidious gets WTFpwned. Maybe we should just stop getting off-topic.

Originally posted by Kadesh
I'm sure they were as well, but being "quite well-informed" doesn't make their opinion factual, hence you looking like a fool every time you try to treat it as such.

By that logic, you can look through any relatively accurate real world encyclopedia, pick out any blanket statement that's subjective by nature inside, and claim it to be a fact, simply because no already established fact disagrees with it.

That's why this is Star Wars, and not the real world! *gasp*... wait, I didn't know that! I thought Star Wars really existed!

Point is moot. NEC wasn't retconned in any way, and is considered to be canon... now then, don't you think its writers would possibly *avoid* placing incorrect information? PROVE it that NEC is not canon. You can't, can you? I didn't think so.

Originally posted by Faunus
As Faunus was saying, do you actually enjoy using third-rate logic?

Do you absolutely enjoy trying to sound funny and completely failing at the same time? If so, I understand how you got your glorious reputation, Noobaris.



Originally posted by Faunus
No, it's not. I've read DE, as has nearly everybody here, and if I had somehow magically missed something as significant out (I didn't), it's pretty clear that at least one of the pro Sidious "faction" would have made such an observation.

I made a mistake; it was stated in the DE Sourcebook, not that actual comic book... and mayve you should read the Visionary Guide again? Under 'Darth Sidious'? And maybe someone else can tell me if it said that... I'm sure someone OTHER than you- a clear supporter of the "Every Ancient Sith > Sidious" theory- could prove me wrong.

Originally posted by Faunus
Either way, pretending that we all did fail to spot such a key point, provide an exact quote, and page number, or quit being so persistently idiotic.

Rofl. So because I don't possess the infinite number of Star Wars material you have, I automatically fail? Maybe you're the one who should serious find a way to get his intelligence level raised.

Originally posted by Faunus
Moron, much? I was quite clearly asking for a quote for the supposed Dark Empire statement.

Bashing, bashing and more bashing. Since you lack the capacity to do anything other than that, I'll simply ignore this.

Originally posted by Faunus
Most devastatingly powerful foe of the darkness, actually, which Yoda having been in a position to fight against it for centuries could most certainly have a lot to do with.

*Sigh*. The novel is extremely clear; Yoda is the MOST POWERFUL foe of the dark side there has ever been. You can't refute this, so just stop trying.

Originally posted by Faunus
Good Lord you're dense. Refer to Faunus's Maul/Sidious/Force Push analogy; your logic fails.

It would appear to me that I'm not the one who was, according to the people on this forum, banned over 30 times and still comes back for more and explain to everyone why every single character, including Jar Jar Binks, is stronger than Sidious. Yeah, I'm the dense one.

My logic works if you could read. Everyone has some sort of speciality, correct? Now, USE YOUR LOGIC. You tend to use your BEST power/trait as your speciality... and due to this reason, as Sidious- a force user GREATER than any of yours, despite your persistence- should, as lightning was his most powerful force power, be able to use lightning to a greater potency than any of them.

Originally posted by Faunus
Which is exactly why it makes Nihilus that powerful. You don't simply look at what he does, and think, wow, that guy's got some awesome draining skills. You look at what he does, and determine what kind of level of power and mastery such an action would demand, and it puts him far above Sidious with his street level lightning.

Canon disagrees with you. Facts disagree with you. Everything other than your biased opinion disagrees with you.

Look at Nihilus' performance in his only fight; I remember fighting him, and he was simply pwned by the Jedi Exile, Yoda's inferior, in saber skills.

And I don't recall Nihilus deteoriating a planet into a dark side bastion through his sheer presence, clouding the very force with his presence, increasing the potency of the dark side and destroying the Jedi's usual clarity of vision; see, I don't remember Nihilus doing anything like that. You can tell yourself Nihilus is beyond Sidious all day long, it just isn't true.

Originally posted by Faunus
Said fallible character was present at the time, was able to see the direct effect of Nihilus' drain through the Force, and was shown to be directing her speech to the audience, which within the medium of comics, is a method the writers use to convey what is factually the case, using a character as the mouth piece, for added effect.

Then why do you deny the omniscent narrator, who is a FAR superior source to an in-universe character, when he claims Yoda is the strongest Jedi in history? Or when the Dark Empire Sourcebook did, indeed, make the claim that the most powerful Sith Lord- EVER- had risen from the grave? Hypocrit.

Originally posted by Faunus
And being in extreme awe of his power isn't something that would put her in denial, or cause her to mentally distort facts.

No... but when you're automatically in a situation when you worship the certain person as a god-like entity and are in absolute fear of him, that tends to distort actual facts.

Originally posted by Faunus
As I explained to Styles, nothing indicates that such an action was vital in the creation of holocrons, and as it stands, Sidious hasn't displayed anything that would indicate that his level of Force Mastery compares.

Let's see... well, I've made a list of Sidious' achievments numerous times, but since you're either in denial, a serious anti-Sidious believer, or a crazy Ancient Sith fanboy, you refuse to accept that Sidious > Bane in terms of force powers.

Originally posted by Faunus
You could bring up his greater experience, but that could just as easily be countered by bringing up evidence of Bane's insane learning rate.

Suuure. Prove Sidious didn't learn things quickly under Plagueis. PROVE IT. You can't.

Originally posted by Faunus
As Faunus stated, it's a demonstration of Force mastery, and would indicate that in a versus scenario, even when up against people who have displayed more power, he would likely be able to focus his powers more efficiently.

Go to the other argument here... once again, if there was really another way to create holocrons, wouldn't Bane do the simple thing and create a holocron another way? The only other possibility is that there's a harder way of creating holocrons, which once again makes Sidious possibly above Bane in this matter.

Originally posted by Faunus
Are you confusing what he does in Sithisis with his Byss drain, or did you mean to say "another impressive ritual" or "an impressive ritual" rather than "the impressive ritual?" Because the wording makes little sense.

Yeah. Right. In Byss, his sheer presence corrupted the land and transformed the planet into a bastion of the dark side... in Sithisis, he clouded the most populous planet in the galaxy with the shroud of the dark side, mind-raped its inhabitants, and released lightning storms throughout it.

Originally posted by Faunus
Your burden of proof, not mine, and as was said, he also relied on the focusing crystal, which is no less than what Sadow used to make a Sun go nova.

The difference is- the ritual was Sidious, not the crystal. It was likely a simple focusing conduit for his ritual... and remember that the ritual was Sidious. He, unlike Sadow, did not rely on his technology. The only thing Naga had was the capacity to throw bricks. Very impressive.


Originally posted by Faunus
He absorbed the energy through all different parts of his body on his own, contained it all on his own (while protecting himself from it internally), and reached out through the Force and redirected it across the Planet's surface, again, on his own. Nothing Sidious has ever done even remotely compares in terms of demonstrated power.

Lol. Since you're using ever, I'll go ahead and tell you that Sidious unleashed a storm that devestated an entire fleet of starships, was able to, according to the DE sourcebook, ravage planets, yes, RAVAGE planets, and was called the strongest usage of the dark side. EVER.

His ROTS self clouded the ENTIRE force through his presence and destroyed the perception of the Jedi; it could be used to cloud their judgement, weaken them, make the dark side stronger... through his sheer presence, later on, he corrupted Byss and transformed it into one of the world's greatest dark side sanctury. But as you're biased, unreasonable, and in denial, I don't think you can see why that's more impressive than channeling the attack of 25 other Sith Lords into a planet.

Originally posted by Kadesh
1. That it had a greater effect on Sidious' body than any before him begs for proof.

I just proved it. Prove otherwise. What other Sith Lord had his whole frame ravaged by the energy inside him? Name me one. Since there is none, I just proved it.

Originally posted by Faunus
2. Even if that was the case, you act as if that somehow translates into his darkside presence being more powerful than that of any before him, when there would logically be many other factors involved, such as:

A) How physically condition the mortal body is.

B) The control one had over their power.

C) Their willpower.

D) For how long they had been using the darkside for, and to what extent.

A) Sidious was simply a 60-something year old man. His physical condition was hardly poor.

B) And Sidious was a MASTER of a control, as displayed multiple times with his force usages... indeed, the dark side energy was simply too much for his body to handle.

C) Sidious, being probably the most intelligent character in the entire saga, had, most likely, more than potent willpower.

D) And you have just proven my correct, smartass. If Sidious was using the dark side for an extended period and with such a level of power, that level of power MUST be potent, as we didn't see any other old Sith Lord get disfigured by the sheer power inside them.

Originally posted by Faunus
3. You do realise, of course, that this is no way applies to beings who don't possess living bodies (Nihilus, and Andeddu, and arguably Sion and Simus as well), and likely to Orbalisk Bane as well given how the orbalisks constantly rejuvenated his body, and possibly to any Force User who used the Force to preserve or strengthen their bodies or were able to counteract the dark side's negative effects on their bodies through other means.

Err... how come Nihilus didn't possess a human body? And prove that Sidious didn't try to heal himself... maybe he did? A Sith Lord as strong as Sidious, who was forced into using a specialized Sith Alchemy technique to hide his true persona, likely tried a simpler way to change his appearance.

Originally posted by Faunus
Unsubstantiated hyperbole?

Err... no. As presence changed the face of the force...



Originally posted by Faunus
That had actually been happening ever since the Ro2 had been put into place, likely due to the fact that the dark side was being concentrated to a far greater degree than ever before.

Where was it stated? Prove it.

Originally posted by Faunus
Feat Wars?

Clearly such an action isn't fully testament to personal power from a combat standpoint, otherwise the likes of Yoda and Mace Windu (who were as vulnerable to Sidious' powers as anyone within the Order) wouldn't have been the fair matches for him that they were.

Lol, then Bane's channeling of the attack wasn't relevant... and Nihilus' drain was only on a planetary scale, so it didn't matter in actual combat... please. It's simply displaying Sidious' power in the Dark Side of the force, like all of your character's rituals. And it's beyond anything they've done. And don't ignore the possibility that Sidious used the dark side of the force to weaken Kolar's, Fisto's, and Tiin's reflexes, dull them, already increasing his prowess with a lightsaber- which, as I've proven, is WELL beyond Nihilus, Traya, and Sion, and slightly beyond Bane.

Originally posted by Faunus
Which is exactly what makes the feat pail in comparison to the quick destruction of the inhabitants of Katarr.

Do you even ignore the possibility that Sidious might have chosen not to devour them at once? They were his workers, his slaves, he needed them... but by slowly draining them, and MAINTAINING the drain over time, while still allowing them to work, is just as impressive as Nihilus' quick drain.

Originally posted by Faunus
The difference is, the lightning made contact with Yoda's lightsaber first (which did nothing to reduce the amount of the lightning), and then his Force defence.

The Force Shield (which has always been a basic ability), as Ro2 shows us, counteracts with the lightning before any physical contact is made, reduces its amount, and if any gets through, it still has to get past the Jedi/Sith's lightsaber, and it's something that any Force User would be able to conjure up, as long as they're in a ready position (and the rules of these threads would dictate that all combatants be in a ready position for the start of the fight at the very least).

Really... then how come in both situations lightning is blocked by a saber in the movies, by Obi-Wan and by Windu, it made contact with a saber? Please. And prove that Yoda wasn't putting up his so-called 'force defenses'...

Faunus already covered this, and while you think you may have countered his point, apparently you weren't able to quite grasp the fact that lightning is lightning: lethal by nature, and that you can't prove that the potency of the lightning he used against the stormtroopers was any greater than that used by Bane on one of his first attempts, meaning that scale is the only thing that can be compared, and it's something that was greater on Bane's part.

Really? It was GREATER? And now aren't you a little exaggerrating? And, seeing as it was Bane's usage of the lightning for the first time, I seriously doubt he could make it that powerful and in such a large location... if it really was that powerful, it wouldn't have been deflected by a Jedi who was half-dead. Remember, Yoda couldn't deflect Sidious' lightning in such a manner. And Yoda >>>>>>>> Worror.

Originally posted by Faunus
1. Worror, while not a combat orientated Jedi, was far from being second-class; it's made explicitly clear that he was a very powerful Jedi, and that he was a major player in the war.

Really? Where exactly?

Originally posted by Faunus
2. He was described as "releasing his own power" when he conjured up the blue orb, a kamikaze type attack if you will, making it the most potent defencive manoeuvre we've ever seen in Star Wars.

The whole energy of a basically dead Jedi who hardly has the power to even compare with people like Yoda. Most potent defensive manuever ever seen in Star Wars? Yeah, right. Because it was used to block Bane's attack doesn't mean that it's all-powerful.

Originally posted by Faunus
3. Pretending that Worror's defencive orb really wasn't that powerful, you would only have a point if we had evidence that Bane's lightning attack was the upper limit of his power, when it's likely that it wasn't, considering:

a) It was at the end of an extremely long battle, and Bane would have likely been too exhausted to use all of his power at that point.

b) Bane believed everyone to be dead, with the exception of the weakest of the group, who at the time was missing an arm, and basically lying on the floor, powerless against him. From his perspective, there wouldn't have been a necessity to use that much power, so why would he? It was most likely a final casual effort to finish a battle that he had basically already won.

Prove that his lightning wasn't serious... it was AIMED to kill, no? Why would Bane take any risks? And once again... even if Bane was exauhsted, which he would not be, due to the orbalisks repleneshing him constantly, how could his lightning get deflected back to him by a practically dead Jedi who isn't even on the top tier of Jedi?

Originally posted by Faunus
The fact that it was his preferred power doesn't change the fact that, by virtue of overall demonstration, we've seen far more from the likes of the Triumvirate that would indicate that their overall Force ability was much greater than his, and that's something that would be applicable through lightning, or any other technique in their arsenal.

You're basing this on three things, basically:

1. Nihilus drained a planet. As I've proven multiple times, Sidious did things just as impressive, if not more impressive.

2. Traya drained three Jedi Masters who were probably not capable of defending such an attack. Once again, Sidious has done FAR more impressive things.

3. You're one of the Anti-Sidious faction who must prove that he is a pathetic weakling, and fail every single time.

You fail. But I don't expect you to understand this.

Originally posted by Faunus
Or maybe because he was too exhausted to continue? As I said, the burden of proof's on you, so bring proof to the table, or go home.

Right then... seeing as the instant Anakin removed Windu's arm, Sidious effortlessly unleashed lightning just as powerful as before with no indications of fatigue, I see it as PROOF that he was not truly exauhsted in the lightning struggle.

Originally posted by Faunus
I don't believe they did. Either way, even if they had seen him, or they had spoken to him, that alone wouldn't amount to anything unless you could provide evidence that would suggest that they would have perceived him as a threat.

They're not morons. They're tried to resurrect someone to kill Sidious' prized apprentice, and they know Sidious is basically all-knowing in these things; they would be afraid of him.

Originally posted by Faunus
Given that these were some of the most powerful Jedi of their time (who had access to Sith Holocrons, and had fought in wars against darksiders in the past), and that these darksiders haven't displayed anything that relates to personal power, and that they were basically all non-combat orientated seers, it's doubtful.

And again, you haven't even provided any evidence that would suggest that these acolytes had put up a defence before Sidious confronted them anyway.

Does any evidence show that the masters attempted to block Traya's assault? No. I can only speculate, but you can't prove that Traya's drain attempted to be blocked. And non-combat doesn't really matter when it comes to pure mastery of the force, you know. It's not like he owned them in sabers.

Originally posted by Faunus
Which is usually the case. Doing something in an organised manner would usually imply that you're not capable of doing it in less time, or without going through certain steps, and in some cases, relying on the use of external objects or sacrifices and such.

Then Bane's channeling of the attack is irrelevant and all other mainly RITUALISTIC feats of your precious Ancient Sith are irrelevant. It's a factor of force strength, if one is capable of performing such a ritual.

Originally posted by Faunus
The fact remains that what these acolytes did exactly is completely undefined, and as such, you can't really get much out of it; certainly not enough to claim that they would have been especially better ready to defend against Force attacks, and that's assuming that they even applied a defence in the first place.



Prove it.

I think the Dark Side sourcebook basically said that to use Sith Alchemy, you must be a powerful force user... and remember, it's Maul we're talking about. Maul, who was chosen by Darth Sidious to be his apprentice is likely quite powerful.

I'm done arguing this stupid thing, however, since you're obiviously biased against Sidious in all manners, and extremely unreasonable with your blind hatred towards Sidious. Like a wise person here said: "I don't argue with socks."

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Point is moot. NEC wasn't retconned in any way, and is considered to be canon... now then, don't you think its writers would possibly *avoid* placing incorrect information? PROVE it that NEC is not canon. You can't, can you? I didn't think so.

Nebaris is not saying that the NEC isn't canon nor is he saying that the statement is not canon. What he is saying is that the source is an in universe so the statement is someones opinion and it should be treated as an opinion of a in universe source (not matter how well informed the author was) being presented in an out of universe source.


Faunus is not Nebaris. So I think you mixed up the quotes of who your responding to.

My bad. The word were 'Faunus' instead of 'Kadesh'.

And yeah, Noobaris is saying that NEC isn't canon. Read his first posts.

And, btw, there are other sources confirming the fact that Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord in history;

Death Star, Page 75; "The Emperor was completely in concert with the dark side of the Force. He was the most powerful Sith to have ever existed."

Ultimate Visual Dictionary, contrary to Noobaris' lies; "the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time.", page 72

In Empire's End, on of the spirits claims that Sidious is the most powerful being to use the dark side. Those spirits include your precious Bane.

Also, according to Kevin J. Anderson, the author of the numerous Exar Kun and other ancient Sith stuff: ""No. Exar Kun, Naga Sadow and the others are on a firmly lower tier than Emperor Palpatine.""

And, finally, according to the DE Sourcebook, the most powerful Sith Lord- EVER- had risen from the grave. Hell, I think now Noobaris/Nebaris (however it's spelled...) will have a hard time to counter that.

Oh trust me he will counter that with statements he pull out of his ass.

Originally posted by Ivalice
Oh trust me he will counter that with statements he pull out of his ass.

Likely. Because everyone knows Sidious will be curbstomped by Nihilus, Sion, and Traya without full use of their limbs. And Bane's sheer presence can kill him .

Nah, stuff like "fallible third parties" or "I have the book and the quote isn't stated there".

He loves to come up with all those excuses which is why the top people of this forum no longer bothers to argue with him. You see, he's basically a broken record.

Originally posted by Ivalice
Nah, stuff like "fallible third parties" or "I have the book and the quote isn't stated there".

He loves to come up with all those excuses which is why the top people of this forum no longer bothers to argue with him. You see, he's basically a broken record.

I see...

Btw, LOL. I read your profile, and your funny quotes are absolutely hilarious. xD

Btw... I seriously think I'm gonna profile that 'Sion, Nihilus, and Traya curbstomp Sidious' statement.

No, I prefer Nebaris's attorney-esque attempts to cast doubt onto such statements; "most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known" = based on the accumulated amount of time that Yoda had spent fighting it as opposed to innate strength. WTF? " succeeded where all others failed in taming the dark side" = To tame is to make weaker, ego Sidious made the dark side weaker. WTF? "Yoda could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history" = wrong, because it was said by a fallible third party. "Ancient Sith pwnz all!!1!" = factual, because the fallible third party who mentioned it is not fallible, or if she is, she is somehow a superior source than the historical council of a galactic superpower with resources and investigative reach that tool the shit out of anything Traya has. The list goes on and on and on.

Don't be fooled, younglings, simply declaring that a certain quote can be portrayed multiple ways without providing the basis of evidence does not cut it. It's like how the Antedivulians used to say that the tNEC quote that "Yoda could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history" was an obvious reference to political power, despite the fact that the statement itself is a reference to a battle -- not debate or a ****ing election. That shit doesn't cut it. In order to cast ambiguity, you must make a well reasoned argument as to why the statement is ambiguous. Simply saying "it is" or "it is because I say so" doesn't suffice.

Originally posted by Gideon
No, I prefer Nebaris's attorney-esque attempts to cast doubt onto such statements;

Well, considering that you, and I quote, "would wager that make a pretty decent lawyer," can I take this to mean that you give my doubt casting skills mad ratingz? (For future reference, kissing my ass on the constant when we're on good terms and then bitching about me when we're not only makes you look extremely idiotic, and I'd suggest having better control over your lips in the future for just that reason.)



All I said was that it was a factor that may have been taken into consideration, actually, which makes perfect sense.

For instance, let's pretend that there just magically happened to be someone with an even higher super genius level intellect than myself (impossible, I know, but let's just pretend for the sake of the analogy), and like me, would rigorously attack the position that Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord there's ever been. Being more intelligent (and let's say more knowledgeable and experienced as well), he would be better equipped to attack the stance, but let's add another twist to the scenario. Let's say, after his very first debate on the matter, Darth Sexy, being the evil bastard he is, were to hunt him down, permanently disable his fingers, and thereby take away his ability to post on these forums ever again.

While being better equipped (and not necessarily by that much) to attack the stance, he would have only been able to do so for one debate, and one debate alone. In comparison to my years of debates of attacking the stance, as more gifted as he may have been, he simply wouldn't have been in a position to be as devastating to the position as myself, and thus, I would be better labelled the more devastatingly powerful foe .

Yoda, having been a many-century old Jedi Master, and having fought against the dark side to such an extent that his victories over it were labelled a "legion," would simply be in a better position than say, a Jedi with the average human lifespan, to be more devastating to such an everlasting enemy. However, that doesn't deny the idea that there may have been Jedi before him (Hoth being a possible contender), who would have been better equipped, at a certain given time, at fighting against "the darkness," which is exactly why the quote proves nothing.

Please note that I'm not saying, definitively, that Yoda wasn't the most powerful Jedi up until that point in time (in fact, based on existing evidence, I would say that he is definitely the top contender), I'm just saying that the quote in question doesn't directly translate into that, and even then, as I was saying to Styles, there's still the question of the canonicity of the entire scene that frames the statement, which vastly differs from the movie's version of events.



No, that's not what I was saying at all (and I certainly wouldn't have ever misspelled "ergo"; what I was saying, was that "taming the dark side" could just as easily translate into toning down its destructive nature as it could dark side mastery (which is what you and Lightsnake were trying to definitively pass off the statement as at the time in question), and the burden of proof being on you and not me means that it was up to you to definitively prove such an interpretation wrong, and not up to me to do the opposite.



No, I was saying that it wasn't necessarily right (there's a difference) because of that, which I'm exactly correct in saying.



I can only assume that you've been out drinking, Gideon, because I haven't so much as even made a reference to that... ever.



I provide the basis of evidence every single time; you can deny it all you want, but you're only lying to yourself Gideon. I mean honestly, you say the same thing virtually all the time, yet, and when I can be bothered, as soon as I copy and paste previous arguments that prove that you're lying out of your ass, you run off, only to be talking the same bullshit in another one of your rants. It's childish.

And no, given how the burden of proof has always been on you in these situations, it's not only fully up to you to provide these quotes, but it's also fully up to you to establish how they definitively fit the interpretation that your argument relies on.

You've never been able to do so, and you still quite clearly can't.

Sheesh get a life nebaris.

Kissing your ass? Nebaris, please, lmao. I'm the only one here with the barest hint of respect for your intelligence, in that I don't think you're totally retarded. Really, if it weren't for my constant vouches, no one would take you seriously here at all, given that you like to pretend that you come off as some sort of skilled debater, you ought to be praising me for what little credit I do give you.

Indeed... after all, it's common knowledge that any Ancient Sith can WTFROFLlolxDLmaoPWN Sidious in the space of 2 seconds ^^. Aside from Bane, who can simply fatally breathe on Sidious. Or pull a moon out of orbit to crush him.

Now then, Nebaris, you should really drop the 'Sidious is a weak moron' approach, because it fails. Every godamn time. I'd assume that those Antedivulians Gideon mentioned were another anti-Sidious, "Ancient Sith 4 life!!!111" fanclub. So for that reason, your "Traya, Sion, Nihilus WTFpwn Sidious' argument fails.

It's for that reason that you shouldn't tell me that I look like a fool when I rely on approved statements. You ignoring canon, fabricating evidence, refusing to accept facts makes YOU look like a fool. And it appears that everyone here agrees with me.

^ And i sure do agree with ya.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Sidious had never displayed having the capacity to see events with such clarity- at least, not that far in the distant future- but it won't matter in a fight, and doesn't necessarily mean Traya > Palpatine.This is true.
She did the same to at least a dozen Sith assassins at once.
She knocked Vrook on his ass twice while arguing with them for at least a minute or two; they were clearly ready to do battle, and would likely be mounting their own Force defenses.

Even if this were not the case, you would still need to prove that the acolytes killed by Sidious were defending themselves, which I asked both you and Gideon to do. If you haven't by now, I'm assuming you can't.
Sidious disintegrated three beings once, a feat matched by Darth Bane, who also managed to char the drexl the riders were seated upon into a mess of burnt meat and bone. Traya fatally drained two opposing groups of Force-users (the three Jedi Masters and the larger group of Sith assassins). So no, Sidious' feat is not any more impresssive than hers, and vice-versa.
I'm not arguing that Sidious isn't, overall, a deadlier warrior than Traya, or that she's more powerful in combat-related areas.
No they can't. They had Darth Bane stumped, the "mountain of muscle" who was one of the strongest and most powerful Sith on record. This has been established: orbalisks, from the exterior, can not be penetrated by a lightsaber.
Again: Bane deflected four lightsabers swinging at his face, weapons wielded by Jedi who were currently being empowered by the battle meditation of a skilled Jedi Master. Unaided, Johun was capable of striking at speeds beyond which the ordinary eye can follow. Farfalla's no slouch himself, and Raskta was the greatest duelist in the Order.

As fast as Sidious is, he can't match that.
No he doesn't. While Palpatine's dueling skills are probably a notch above Bane's, there's no substantial difference. His acquired power and mastery exceeds that of Bane as well; again, it's not nearly enough of an advantage to grant him an easy win. So while being slightly superior to Bane overall, thanks to advanced age and experience, he still lacks the full suit of impenetrable body armor that Bane has, and that will make all the difference.
No, they were proclaimed so by Obi-Wan. Of the three, only Agen Kolar was given such praise from the narrator.
Dooku was clearly toying with him throughout the battle.
Implied? Yes. Stated? No. Don't argue from ignorance.

1) He was never "losing." There was a point where Zannah feared she was about to die, and Bane would likely follow when her opponent joined the trio that was attacking him.

2) At said point, when Bane was cut in the wrist (an injury that healed almost instantly), he got ticked off and hurled every single one of them at least a dozen meters apiece. Then, he decided to go kill Worror, who Johun saved with a Force-push.

In fact, Farfalla had to stockpile Force energy just to keep Bane from flattening Raskta. When she was thrown at a wall, Farfalla had to use all of his power to keep her from being crushed to a pulp, and she still managed to slam into it pretty hard.
Possibly. But it's unlikely.
As of RotS? No. Not from a combat standpoint, all things considered.
Again, I never even suggested that could happen. Nihilus, however, is a different story.
I'm disagreeing with a lot of the logic you're using. Clearly, our conclusions are the same, but we're getting there in different ways.

Originally posted by Faunus
She did the same to at least a dozen Sith assassins at once.

When did she do that? I played the game twice already, and I don't recall her draining about a dozen Sith assassins. I could be wrong, of course, but really... where exactly did she do that?

Originally posted by Faunus
She knocked Vrook on his ass twice while arguing with them for at least a minute or two; they were clearly ready to do battle, and would likely be mounting their own Force defenses.

True; but those Sith Acoltyes knew Sidious. They KNEW his terrible rage, and in any case, their force defenses would likely be in use.

Originally posted by Faunus
Even if this were not the case, you would still need to prove that the acolytes killed by Sidious were defending themselves, which I asked both you and Gideon to do. If you haven't by now, I'm assuming you can't.

Just like you can't prove these people were trying to defend against Traya's force drain; this Prophets, powerful users of the dark side according to the Dark Side Sourcebook, would have precognition as an ability, in addition to intuition; it's most probable they were trying to defend against the lightning. Can I speculate about it? Yes. Can I absolutely prove it? No, just like you can't.


Originally posted by Faunus
Sidious disintegrated three beings once, a feat matched by Darth Bane, who also managed to char the drexl the riders were seated upon into a mess of burnt meat and bone. Traya fatally drained two opposing groups of Force-users (the three Jedi Masters and the larger group of Sith assassins). So no, Sidious' feat is not any more impresssive than hers, and vice-versa.

Darth Bane did, indeed, match that feat; but those Riders were not force sensitive and had absolutely no defenses. If so, I could compare it to Sidious' massacre of dozens of elite Stormtroopers at once.

Also, Darth Bane got his lightning deflected back to him by a practically dead, not particularly strong Jedi to almost fatal results. The Grand Master of the Jedi Order, the most powerful foe the dark side had ever known, could only barely fend off Sidious' attack. Do you see the difference?


Originally posted by Faunus
I'm not arguing that Sidious isn't, overall, a deadlier warrior than Traya, or that she's more powerful in combat-related areas.

Thank you. This is the only relevant thing in here, as this is a battle ^^.

And if you want to use outside of battle... well, the ritual used by Sidious in Sithisis was more impressive than anything Traya did. But it's irrevalant.

In a one-on-one fight between Sidious and Traya, he would absolutely destroy her in sabers. And would likely beat her in a force fight after a VERY close fight.

Originally posted by Faunus
No they can't. They had Darth Bane stumped, the "mountain of muscle" who was one of the strongest and most powerful Sith on record. This has been established: orbalisks, from the exterior, can not be penetrated by a lightsaber.

I've never ONCE denied that Bane is EXTREMELY powerful. He's a close second to ROTS Sidious, in my opinion, in terms of 'strongest Sith in history'. My mistake, in anyways...

Originally posted by Faunus
Again: Bane deflected four lightsabers swinging at his face, weapons wielded by Jedi who were currently being empowered by the battle meditation of a skilled Jedi Master. Unaided, Johun was capable of striking at speeds beyond which the ordinary eye can follow. Farfalla's no slouch himself, and Raskta was the greatest duelist in the Order.

Yes. Farfalla may be 'no slouch', but he's nothing extraordinary, either. Raskta was extremely powerful, but I don't think she's as strong as say, Kas'im in terms of saber skills. Yes, Bane deflected four lightsabers swinging at his chest; but remember... Dooku was capable of fending off General Grievous. Who had FOUR lightsabers. But he was overwhelmed by Anakin, who had ONE lightsaber. I won't argue that when you have more sabers, you can attack more, but not necessarily as quickly or with as much percision as you would have with a single saber.

And Sidious' speed still trumpts their speed; he's considered to be one of the strongest swordsmen in history (NG: Sidious is a 9. 9 = Highest level, very few people achieved it. Logically he's one of the best saber fighters in history), can move at INCREDIBLE speeds, attack with INCREDIBLE speed (Even in the movie, he's one of the few characters that we can really note as attacking with insane speed. Anakin and Yoda are the others, with Dooku being a possibility... and I'm referring to Sid vs. Yoda, not Sid vs. Mace), and can WTFpwn three of the best fighters in history in the space of 10 seconds.

Originally posted by Faunus
No he doesn't. While Palpatine's dueling skills are probably a notch above Bane's, there's no substantial difference. His acquired power and mastery exceeds that of Bane as well; again, it's not nearly enough of an advantage to grant him an easy win. So while being slightly superior to Bane overall, thanks to advanced age and experience, he still lacks the full suit of impenetrable body armor that Bane has, and that will make all the difference.

Inarguably true- Sidious is slightly above Bane in all categories, but Bane's armor gives him an edge in defense.

However, it's also a hindrance; if Sidious hits him with lightning, he's down. And using acrobatics, lightning, and speed strikes to the head can make all the difference in a fight.. although Sidious will hardly, HARDLY defeat him easily. As I've already stated previously, it'd be a tough fight.

Originally posted by Faunus
No, they were proclaimed so by Obi-Wan. Of the three, only Agen Kolar was given such praise from the narrator.

Kolar was given high praise, yeah. But Obi-Wan- someone who had access to the Jedi archives and the teachings of Yoda, a 900 year old Jedi Master, who likely have knowledge of previous Jedi fighters. I'm not saying that it's the inarguable canon, but it's definetly something to be highly considered. Just as much as Traya's "Tulak Hord rox" statement.

Originally posted by Faunus
Dooku was clearly toying with him throughout the battle.

Very much agreed, but the fact that Dooku didn't kill him very quickly- which he should've, knowing the circumstances- it's still impressive that Obi-Wan could fend him off for such a long time.

Originally posted by Faunus
Implied? Yes. Stated? No.

Implied- sufficient to be canon if nothing else trumps that. While I certainly agree with you that ROTS Obi-Wan >> Kit Fisto, his previous incarnation lost to Kit. Logically, Kit should give Dooku a 'fight'.

Originally posted by Faunus
1) He was never "losing." There was a point where Zannah feared she was about to die, and Bane would likely follow when her opponent joined the trio that was attacking him.

Raskta was overwhelming him with ferocious strikes to the face; he seemed to be losing... yes, he was close to losing. Would he, on fair ground, defeat Raskta? Yes.

And seeing as the people who were actually attacking Bane, other than Raskta, were probably not any higher- maybe even lower- than Kolar-level, did not get crushed by Bane like Sidious did to his multiple opponents... well, you get the point.

Originally posted by Faunus
2) At said point, when Bane was cut in the wrist (an injury that healed almost instantly), he got ticked off and hurled every single one of them at least a dozen meters apiece. Then, he decided to go kill Worror, who Johun saved with a Force-push.

Bane was insanely strong in the force, it's common knowledge. His force push was capable of pulverizing people. But it's still not enough to match Sidious' force feats.

Originally posted by Faunus
In fact, Farfalla had to stockpile Force energy just to keep Bane from flattening Raskta. When she was thrown at a wall, Farfalla had to use all of his power to keep her from being crushed to a pulp, and she still managed to slam into it pretty hard.

Bane's Force Push is his best power, but it was blocked by Kas'im, someone who had exceptional saber skills but hardly above ordinary force abilities.

Originally posted by Faunus
Possibly. But it's unlikely.

Not from what I've seen.


Originally posted by Faunus
As of RotS? No. Not from a combat standpoint, all things considered.

Sabers- In terms of pure skill and mastery, Sidious > Bane. Bane's Orbalisks, however, give him a definite advantage in defense, so unless Sidious is smart, he'll be hard-pressed to defeat Bane in a pure saber match. However, Bane won't be able to overcome him, either.

Force- As you've agreed, Sidious' power and established mastery is well beyond Bane's. He wins.

All Out- You get the point.

Originally posted by Faunus
Again, I never even suggested that could happen. Nihilus, however, is a different story.

Seeing as Nihilus' only single-target force drain FAILED miserably (but only due to the Exile's 'status', of course), it could be that his drain was ritualistic in nature, took a while to prepare, etc, etc. And other than the drain, Sidious can defeat Nihilus in any category.

Originally posted by Faunus
I'm disagreeing with a lot of the logic you're using. Clearly, our conclusions are the same, but we're getting there in different ways.

Of course. Maybe we should stop arguing- it's truly irrelevant, this whole argument, as we both know Sidious will get curbstomped ^^.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Seeing as Nihilus' only single-target force drain FAILED miserably (but only due to the Exile's 'status', of course), it could be that his drain was ritualistic in nature, took a while to prepare, etc, etc. And other than the drain, Sidious can defeat Nihilus in any category.

You need to read what you write more carefully. His force drain was used IN COMBAT. The exile ignites the saber before the drain, then big N falls on the floor like a woman.
A woman who also happens to mean the death of the force...

Originally posted by Jbill311
You need to read what you write more carefully. His force drain was used IN COMBAT. The exile ignites the saber before the drain, then big N falls on the floor like he took a kick to his brass balls.

A woman who also happens to mean the death of the force...
Fixed.

^^^
thnx. Was in a public library as I typed.

I find it highly unlikely that Nihilus could prepare a massive ritual like that without a whole planet of Force sensitives and Jedi masters knowledge. And also Visas' account of what happened makes it seem that it was an instantaneous thing.



When she reaches the Trayus academy on Malachor she walks through about a dozen invisible Sith and they all just die without her even motioning.



Kas'im was a trainer in the place where only the most powerful were allowed to train. There's a high probability that he was exeptionally powerful. Also, his ability to actually perform the block in question would indecate some small strength.




Such as?

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
I find it highly unlikely that Nihilus could prepare a massive ritual like that without a whole planet of Force sensitives and Jedi masters knowledge. And also Visas' account of what happened makes it seem that it was an instantaneous thing.

Right then; see the following picture, alright?

The Jedi Conclave gathers. They debate, while Nihilus is preparing some massive ritual in space; then, he releases the ritual and it spreads across the planet, eliminating its inhabitants. That does not contradict anything stated about the massive drain.



Originally posted by Darth Exodus
When she reaches the Trayus academy on Malachor she walks through about a dozen invisible Sith and they all just die without her even motioning.

I see... impressive. But they were unlikely to have any sorts of defenses, as they were invisible and did not think they could see her. It's impressive, regardless.



Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Kas'im was a trainer in the place where only the most powerful were allowed to train. There's a high probability that he was exeptionally powerful. Also, his ability to actually perform the block in question would indecate some small strength.

That's like me saying the Cin Drallig was an awesome user of force powers; just because someone was a skilled lightsaber instructor, it does NOT, NOT mean that their strength in the force is high. And seeing as absolutely nothing dictates his force skills to be anything above ordinary, we'll have to assume that's the case.




Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Such as?

Do I really need to state this over and over again?

Sidious' lightning- Was capable of reducing powerful force sensitives to ashes, destroy massive amounts of people at once, and almost overpower the strongest Jedi in history.

Bane's lightning- Could reduce non force-sensitives to ashes, and fill up a large room, when it is likely that the lightning's power was only minimal. Got deflected back to him by a practically dead Jedi.

Other than Bane's channeling of the massive attack, Sidious trumpts him in mastery, skill, and control, with his rituals, his lightning, and, most impressively of all (possibly), his very presence affecting the ENTIRE force and clouding the minds of the most powerful Jedi who lived literally next door to him. Yeah, unless you think Bane pulled a moon out of orbit... you see that he has NOTHING on Sidious in force powers.

But to be honest? This whole argument is made redunant by the plethora of quotes backing up Sidious as the most powerful Sith Lord in history. Yes, ROTS Sidious. Meaning ROTS Sidious is stronger than Bane. Meaning you can't argue that Bane is Sidious' superior. It's just stupid to argue against facts also backed up by evidence.

But it does contradict everything that we know (or thought we knew) about the precognitive powers of a Jedi. I'm pretty sure that the Jedi Masters would notice if a Sith of such magnitude (powerwise) were to just drop out of orbit and start making preparation for a huge ritual, especially considering that the Exile, Traya and Atris could all feel him half-a galaxy away.
Unless they knew and he just vastly overpowered them. In which case he really does rule.



The fact that he was capable of blocking the most powerful Force push in recorded Star Wars history shows that he is reasonably powerful.





He caught them by surprise, meaning that they had no defence, plus they were acolytes meaning that they probably didn't know jack about the usual Force methods, blocks etc




Try 80 defencless lackeys.




= an 850 yr old green turd that walks with a stick, is 1 foot tall, has arthritus, just felt his entire circle of friends killed and was surprised.

Plus its pretty clear that they drew.



And I suppose that force-sensitives are naturally made of rock are they?



Actually it is likely that A) He only got stronger with time and

B) It was extremely potent as it almost made Githany ( a powerful sith ) Shit herself due to its power.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
But it does contradict everything that we know (or thought we knew) about the precognitive powers of a Jedi. I'm pretty sure that the Jedi Masters would notice if a Sith of such magnitude (powerwise) were to just drop out of orbit and start making preparation for a huge ritual, especially considering that the Exile, Traya and Atris could all feel him half-a galaxy away.
Unless they knew and he just vastly overpowered them. In which case he really does rule.

Nihilus was a so-called 'dark hole in the force'; like his master, Traya, it is extremely likely that he could use a technique called Force Cloak (I believe) to hide his presence. It's the same technique that Sidious used to a vastly more potent degree against the Jedi, allowing him to remain unnoticed and thus take over the galaxy.



Originally posted by Darth Exodus
The fact that he was capable of blocking the most powerful Force push in recorded Star Wars history shows that he is reasonably powerful.

Is that necessarily the most powerful force push in Star Wars history? Although I'll admit it's very possible, the fact that the likes of Kas'im were capable of blocking it would simply mean that the likes of Sidious would be able to EASILY block it. Sidious >>> Kas'im in the force, it's simply undebetable.





Originally posted by Darth Exodus
He caught them by surprise, meaning that they had no defence, plus they were acolytes meaning that they probably didn't know jack about the usual Force methods, blocks etc

They were users of Sith Alchemy, which, according to the DS Sourcebook, requires plenty of power to use. Force Barrier is a very basic force technique; people with a rather high degree of power should be capable of learning it.




Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Try 80 defencless lackeys.

They were genetically altered stormtroopers; the sheer capacity to decimate dozens of stormtroopers with a burst of force lightning is well beyond anything Bane displayed.




Originally posted by Darth Exodus
= an 850 yr old green turd that walks with a stick, is 1 foot tall, has arthritus, just felt his entire circle of friends killed and was surprised.

Err... lol, he wasn't surprised. In the beginning, yes, he was surprised, but afterwards, he should have had knowledge of Sidious' force lightning; he should've been expecting a force attack from Sidious' side. And yeah, according to the ROTS novel- G-CANON, beyond any EU novel- is the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had EVER known. Which, incidentally, puts him WELL beyond a half-dead Worror. And we know what happened to Bane's lightning when it was met with Worror. We also know what happened to Sidious' lightning when it was met by a FAR more potent foe than Worror.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Plus its pretty clear that they drew.

Sidious beat Yoda. Is he stronger? No. They're equals, but Sidious has a natural advantage due to him being a smarter fighter and having a much more potent arsenal of offensive weapons.



Originally posted by Darth Exodus
And I suppose that force-sensitives are naturally made of rock are they?

No, but unlike force-sensitives, non force-sensitives are COMPLETELY, as you said, defenseless against the power of lightning; of course, if they're physically tough enough- which is my point about the stormtroopers- they should be able to endure the lightning to some degree. Those riders had no defenses and weren't well-conditioned. Nice job, Bane.



Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Actually it is likely that A) He only got stronger with time and

B) It was extremely potent as it almost made Githany ( a powerful sith ) Shit herself due to its power.

Githany's a particularly powerful Sith? Since when? We all know that in Kaan's brotherhood, the only truly strong Sith were Bane and Kas'im. All others were Sith pretenders and wannabes. No, Githany isn't top-tier at all.

Yes, it got stronger with time; but in RoT, where Bane achieved his full potential, he tried to finally kill a Jedi with it... you know the results. Until you can refute the fact that Bane's lightning was deflected back to him by a half-dead Jedi while Sidious' lightning almost overpowered the greatest Jedi in history, it's a moot point.

And do you at least concede that Sidious would destroy either Traya, Sion, or Nihilus in sabers?

will it make a diffrence if its de siddious and not rots siddious?

Originally posted by Man of Christ
will it make a diffrence if its de siddious and not rots siddious?
He would be able to kill atleast one of them if it were DE Sidious but i still don't think he would be able to kill all 3 of them. It really all depends on the begining of the duel if the triumvirate does what the jedi masters did in rots and have that little conversation with him than I could see him taking out Nihilus and Traya with the combo of his speed and lightsaber skill than he would need de-limb Sion and he loses or if Sidious could use force sever on Sion and Sion loses his connection with the force than he dies instantly.

Well? To be honest, DE Sidious should have a definite chance.

And Elite Hunter, ROTS Sidious could leap at them and obliterate them in sabers, too. But due to Nihilus and Traya each being almost as strong as him in the force, they will- together- curbstomp him in a force fight. I also think that Sion will die because he displayed little to no force abilities, and will be forced into lightsaber combat with ROTS Sidious, who is already described as a 'blur' and attacks and moves with extreme speed and viciousness. That's why I think he'll curbstomp Sion in a saberfight and will subsequently be destroyed by Nihilus and Traya in a force fight.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Well? To be honest, DE Sidious should have a definite chance.

And Elite Hunter, ROTS Sidious could leap at them and obliterate them in sabers, too. But due to Nihilus and Traya each being almost as strong as him in the force, they will- together- curbstomp him in a force fight. I also think that Sion will die because he displayed little to no force abilities, and will be forced into lightsaber combat with ROTS Sidious, who is already described as a 'blur' and attacks and moves with extreme speed and viciousness. That's why I think he'll curbstomp Sion in a saberfight and will subsequently be destroyed by Nihilus and Traya in a force fight.

how did sion get to and fro? did he know how to pilot the harbinger or did he move it with the force?

Originally posted by Man of Christ
how did sion get to and fro? did he know how to pilot the harbinger or did he move it with the force?
You mean how did he get to Peragus? I assumed that his sith assassins piloted it.

Well, remember the Republic crew inside the ship was supposed to be heading towards Peragus anyway, so they might very well have put the pilot on automatic, because the destination was already set.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
You mean how did he get to Peragus? I assumed that his sith assassins piloted it.
and then to korriban once we killed all the assasins?

Originally posted by Man of Christ
and then to korriban once we killed all the assasins? He could have used the force or there could have more assassins that were on board in other areas of the ship. After Peragus exploded the ship could have been put onto auto pilot and I forget what happened to that other ship the Harbinger found and wasnt there a sith ship in the area? I dont have kotor 2 anymore so i cant check.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Right then; see the following picture, alright?

The Jedi Conclave gathers. They debate, while Nihilus is preparing some massive ritual in space; then, he releases the ritual and it spreads across the planet, eliminating its inhabitants. That does not contradict anything stated about the massive drain.Awesome. Now prove it, or drop it. What you think might have happened doesn't matter.
Sith assassin's draw power from their enemies; the stronger their target, the stronger they become. This is a passive ability, which means its always active.

And really, the double standards here are mind-boggling. According to you, three random alchemists who are apparently familiar with Sidious' rage - and therefore, would logically have been defending themselves - had put up their Force defenses, but over a dozen assassins who likely had trained with the likes of Revan, Malak, or any of the Triumvirate, and were largely responsible for the slaughter of most of the galaxy's Jedi, are not going to be ready for an offensive attack. Right.
So the absence of proof = proof of absence clause applies only when it conveniences you? What happened to "Nihilus 'might' have needed a ritual, despite nothing pointing to that conclusion"?

The fact that Kas'im managed to completely protect himself from a telekinetic attack that imploded an entire building means that, yeah, he definitely has something going for him.
What you need to do is stop trying to downplay the feats of other characters in order to supplant your claims about your favorite character. I'm generally against the idea of calling people out on bias, but this requires it.
As of RotS? Only the last applies.

Stay on topic.
The first is matched only by Sidious at his peak. The second assertion is absolutely laughable, especially considering that the display occurs an hour after he began learning the technique.
Practically dead =/= weak. Worror unleashed all of his power to pull that off, and it only worked because Bane was caught completely off-guard - he'd just slashed out all of Worror's four throats, and presumably believed he was dead - and had his attention focused on casually finishing off another opponent. It's fairly evident that it wasn't Bane's lightning on full power.
The amusingly overzealous praise aside, Bane has feats that have yet to be matched by Sidious, or any Force-user for that matter. He's responsible for the single most destructive telekinetic assault in the saga - accomplished when he was far from his peak - and at a stage fairly fairly early on in his ascent to power, has actually demonstrated use of the Force at a subatomic level, managed to move at speeds completely beyond the perceptions of other trained Force-users, and has a complete familiarity with every possible lightsaber technique in the seven forms of combat.

Again: I'm not arguing that Sidious isn't Bane's technical superior in a number of combat-related areas. But Bane has advantages of his own that serve to offset his opponent's advantages. Physically, he's vastly superior in every possible way. His aforementioned knowledge of dueling forms - which is essentially flawless - means that Sidious' mastery of the lightsaber is basically negated, and the impenetrable orbalisk armor means that Bane holds an indisputable advantage in close combat. Palpatine's allegedly superior mastery would be at best only slightly above Bane's, so even a Force contest could arguably go either way due to the protection afforded to Bane against anything but Sith lightning by the armor.
You have one statement issued by a fallible in-universe character to support the assertion that RotS Sidious is the most powerful Sith in history. Assuming that the statement is concrete and untouchable, it'd be remarkably idiotic of you to suggest that the more "powerful" opponent holds every advantage, as I've already demonstrated that to be untrue.

So yes, it can most certainly be argued that Bane has a significant chance of defeating Sidious in personal combat. The consensus towards the thread's topic is absolute, although I'm sure you'll continue to propose that Sion is worthless, and therefore gets taken out in the instant required for Nihilus and Traya to annihilate the Emperor.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Is that necessarily the most powerful force push in Star Wars history?It's clearly the most destructive; I can't recall anyone else ever destroying a massive structure with a telekinetic attack.
Sidious is certainly Kas'im's superior in the Force, but the size of the gap between the two is debatable.
That doesn't mean they were using it when Sidious killed them, as you would need to prove in order to support your assertion that his lightning reducing three men to bones is more impressive than Bane's lightning reducing three men and a massive beast to ashes.
The troopers are modified, ergo they're somehow more resistant to lightning?

And as has been stated before (again, and again, and again), Bane managed to fill an entire hall with lightning an hour after he began learning the technique. Over ten years later, the magnitude of his power would have increased tremendously.
Been over this, too. And the techniques used by Yoda and Worror were not the same, so the situations can't be compared as easily as you would like.
Which means the stormtroopers are defenseless too, genetically modified or not.
I swear, I've never encountered anyone on KMC who sets a good first impression, then insists on using such half-assed logic as the crutch for his arguments. It's unbelievable.

The troopers were not protected in any way, and neither were the riders. The fact that the clones have had more formalized training doesn't mean they're less susceptible to Sith lightning, nor does it matter. As he's already shown, Bane possesses the ability to telekinetically obliterate an entire temple, which means that his destructive ability there would also apply to "defenseless" non-Force users. Were their positions reversed, Bane could almost certainly accomplish the same feat in multiple ways.
Fast learner, but too young to be truly "powerful" in the grand scheme of things. The point is, he mastered the lightning ability in an hour to a higher degree than she had in a much longer period of time.
You clearly know very little about the material; don't argue from ignorance. Bane himself considered Kaan powerful, as he reflects upon in RoT. Kopecz was notably powerful as well, as was Sirak amongst the trainees; the senior Dark Lords has suspected him to be the sith'ari prior to Bane's arrival.
Wait: full potential? At thirty-six? You're either joking, or being moronic.
Good job taking things completely out of context. The Jedi he tried to kill with it (Johun) was not the Jedi who deflected the lightning back upon him. Worror was noted as a powerful Jedi Master, and it was his last-ditch effort executed upon an opponent who thought he was dead that managed to succeed.
It's already been done, and multiple times.
You would need to back that statement up if you expect to actually use it, and it's not even remotely relevant to the fight; just you trying to find a way to fellate Sidious some more.

Originally posted by Faunus
Awesome. Now prove it, or drop it. What you think might have happened doesn't matter.
Sith assassin's draw power from their enemies; the stronger their target, the stronger they become. This is a passive ability, which means its always active.

Err... no, Faunus, what "might" have happened is very important in these discussions, since I find it extremely unlikely that Nihilus devoured an entire planet with a single use of the force; I'm not arguing that Nihilus isn't one of the strongest Sith in history, but still... that kind of feat is just overkill. I'll leave you to prove that he devoured it instaneously, otherwise, like my case, "might have happened" is also relevant to you.

Originally posted by Faunus
And really, the double standards here are mind-boggling. According to you, three random alchemists who are apparently familiar with Sidious' rage - and therefore, would logically have been defending themselves - had put up their Force defenses, but over a dozen assassins who likely had trained with the likes of Revan, Malak, or any of the Triumvirate, and were largely responsible for the slaughter of most of the galaxy's Jedi, are not going to be ready for an offensive attack. Right.

Those Sith Assassins, incidentally, could be killed by Jedi in open combat; they relied on stealth and sneak attacks in order to defeat their enemies, and due to this fact, I seriously doubt that they were expecting Traya to be capable of sensing them, nevermind seeing them; unlike the Alchemists, who were met by Sidious head-on and would, probably, know that such an act against the throne- namely the attempted assassination of Sidious' prized apprentice- would be severely punished.

Originally posted by Faunus
So the absence of proof = proof of absence only applies only when it conveniences you? What happened to "Nihilus 'might' have needed a ritual, despite nothing pointing to that conclusion"?

The fact that Kas'im managed to completely protect himself from a telekinetic attack that imploded an entire building means that, yeah, he definitely has something going for him.

We all know what happens with characters; if they're strong, SOMETHING needs to be stated about that. As Kas'im had no previous force feats on his belt, then I doubt he was an exceptional force user. And no... nothing directly points to the conclusion that Nihilus walked up, said a few gibberish words, and drained the entire planet with a single usage of the force. It's just as plausible that was a prolonged ritual, Faunus, and although I can't prove it, you can't prove that it was done in instants, with no ritual. I'll accept it as a possibility that he did it instantly, while you should accept it as a possibility that it was a ritual of sorts. There is nothing pointing to either conclusion, so due to that fact, both are possible.

Originally posted by Faunus
What you need to do is stop trying to downplay the feats of other characters in order to supplant your claims about your favorite character. I'm generally against the idea of calling people out on bias, but this requires it.

If I was really as biased as you claim, then how come I admit that Traya and Nihilus will WTFpwn Sidious together? No, I actually like Bane as a character, and I also like Traya as a character. While I can't say the same about Nihilus and Sion, I'm not at all arguing out of bias, Faunus.

Originally posted by Faunus
As of RotS? Only the last applies.

Which is incidentally enough to prove that Sidious' lightning > RoT Bane's lightning. Other than your "Worror used an uber defensive technique" argument, you can't prove that Yoda- whose intention was to kill Sidious at all costs, used a less potent defensive manuever. Note that Yoda, who was severely lacking in offensive techniques, had the ability to deflect Sidious' lightning as the ONLY way to possibly kill him, due to the loss of his lightsaber. It was Yoda's last chance to destroy the emperor of the galaxy, and I'm pretty sure he would give it his all.

Originally posted by Faunus
Stay on topic.
The first is matched only by Sidious at his peak. The second assertion is absolutely laughable, especially considering that the display occurs an hour after he began learning the technique.

Thanks for provind me right; a guy who just learned force lightning isn't going to be able to do it at Sidious-level potency immediately. It's far more likely that the lightning's actual power isn't particularly high; I'm simply being logical, not trying to say it wasn't impressive. And you clearly aren't being logical in this case.

Originally posted by Faunus
Practically dead =/= weak. Worror unleashed all of his power to pull that off, and it only worked because Bane was caught completely off-guard - he'd just slashed out all of Worror's four throats, and presumably believed he was dead - and had his attention focused on casually finishing off another opponent. It's fairly evident that it wasn't Bane's lightning on full power.

I'm going to imitate you and tell you to "prove it!". Bane needed his lightning to kill a Jedi who wasn't close to defeat; sure, he lost his hand, but he wasn't even bleeding. I'm pretty sure Bane would need his lightning's full power to certainly kill a Jedi. And practically dead does mean that Worror's power is almost completely drained, and yeah... like Yoda, he was desperate, but unlike Yoda, nothing points to him being particularly strong and nor is his technique necessarily better than Yoda's.

Originally posted by Faunus
The amusingly overzealous praise aside, Bane has feats that have yet to be matched by Sidious, or any Force-user for that matter. He's responsible for the single most destructive telekinetic assault in the saga - accomplished when he was far from his peak - and at a stage fairly fairly early on in his ascent to power, has actually demonstrated use of the Force at a subatomic level, managed to move at speeds completely beyond the perceptions of other trained Force-users, and has a complete familiarity with every possible lightsaber technique in the seven forms of combat.

Anakin isn't a trained force user? Yeah. As stated here, Subatomic Manipulations were most likely also accomplished by Sidious, as he also created a holocron and both would most likely chose the most efficient way to do it. It doesn't require any particular power, just control; and as you admit Sidious is Bane's technical superior, you see how there is absolutely no reason why Sidious wouldn't be able to accomplish the same.

Originally posted by Faunus
Again: I'm not arguing that Sidious isn't Bane's technical superior in a number of combat-related areas. But Bane has advantages of his own that serve to offset his opponent's advantages. Physically, he's vastly superior in every possible way. His aforementioned knowledge of dueling forms - which is essentially flawless - means that Sidious' mastery of the lightsaber is basically negated, and the impenetrable orbalisk armor means that Bane holds an indisputable advantage in close combat. Palpatine's allegedly superior mastery would be at best only slightly above Bane's, so even a Force contest could arguably go either way due to the protection afforded to Bane against anything but Sith lightning by the armor.

As I do have a respect for you, I don't expect you to be one of these people who claim that Nick Gillard isn't canon; therefore, see that Sidious was stated to be a "Master of every style and every weapon", "could change his fighting style at a whim"... yeah, Sidious has a lot more knowledge than Bane in absolutely everything. It's just logical; Sidious lived for longer, trained for longer...

And Sidious is faster than Bane, I don't think you can deny that, but in any other physical category- strength, conditioning, endurance, etc, Bane is the definite superior. The orbalisks are also an advantage. This is why I stated that RotS Sidious has a slightly better chance than Bane in close-ranged combat, and Bane would have a definite chance.

Originally posted by Faunus
You have one statement issued by a fallible in-universe character to support the assertion that RotS Sidious is the most powerful Sith in history. Assuming that the statement is concrete and untouchable, it'd be remarkably idiotic of you to suggest that the more "powerful" opponent holds every advantage, as I've already demonstrated that to be untrue.

How about NEC? Visual Dictionary? DS Sourcebook?

But anyway, let's least that advantages of both combatants:

Sidious: Faster, has apparently far better control, technique, and mastery. Also arguably has more raw power.

Bane: Far stronger, has better physical endurance, has plenty of raw power, and his defense is almost unbreakable.

Due to this, I will say that Sidious is the slight superior in both categories, but yeah, RoT Bane has a definite chance of victory.

Originally posted by Faunus
So yes, it can most certainly be argued that Bane has a significant chance of defeating Sidious in personal combat. The consensus towards the thread's topic is absolute, although I'm sure you'll continue to propose that Sion is worthless, and therefore gets taken out in the instant required for Nihilus and Traya to annihilate the Emperor.

Sion has displayed absolutely nothing impressive, and I can't see why Sidious can't take him out in an instant via a quick decapacitation or lightning. They can annihilate him, but since he probably has formidable force defenses, it will take them slightly more than 5 seconds. xD

Originally posted by Faunus
It's clearly the most destructive; I can't recall anyone else ever destroying a massive structure with a telekinetic attack.
Sidious is certainly Kas'im's superior in the Force, but the size of the gap between the two is debatable.

Err... yeah, it's debatable, but I don't think I need to prove proof as to why Sidious absolutely destroys him in force powers. And it doesn't really matter; the wave is Bane's most destructive force ability, and as it was blocked by someone who is Sidious' inferior, logically, Sidious should be able to do the same.

Originally posted by Faunus
That doesn't mean they were using it when Sidious killed them, as you would need to prove in order to support your assertion that his lightning reducing three men to bones is more impressive than Bane's lightning reducing three men and a massive beast to ashes.
The troopers are modified, ergo they're somehow more resistant to lightning?

Yes, they're more resistant to lightning than an ordinary human due to better physical conditioning and superior power. Plus, wouldn't their armor possibly give them a limited amount of protection against direct electricity? However, as I don't know what the armor is made of and its properties, I won't elaborate on that point.

Originally posted by Faunus
And as has been stated before (again, and again, and again), Bane managed to fill an entire hall with lightning an hour after he began learning the technique. Over ten years later, the magnitude of his power would have increased tremendously.

Yup, it would've increased tremenously, but due to the following example, you see how come Sidious' lightning is beyond Bane's.

Originally posted by Faunus
Been over this, too. And the techniques used by Yoda and Worror were not the same, so the situations can't be compared as easily as you would like.

No, they can be compared FAR more easily than you like, and I'm going to prove why. Although I expect you'll stay with you "Uber defensive technique" argument:

Yoda = Far, far more powerful than Worror. Do you at least concede that?

Now the situations; in both situations, the Jedi had to give absolutely everything in order to allow the demise of their opponent; however, in Yoda's case it was the survival of the entire galaxy, and in Worror's, it was the destruction of the Sith; who would go on, anyways, due to Zannah. And due to Yoda being vastly more powerful, more desperate, and actually ALIVE, I think his technique may be... err... slightly more powerful than Worror's.

Originally posted by Faunus
Which means the stormtroopers are defenseless too, genetically modified or not.

I explained exactly why they should have much better defense than the Riders.

Originally posted by Faunus
I swear, I've never encountered anyone on KMC who sets a good first impression, then insists on using such half-assed logic as the crutch for his arguments. It's unbelievable.

I don't know whether to take this as an insult or as a compliment. I respect you, Faunus, but I seriously think that insulting me is completely unnecessary.

Originally posted by Faunus
The troopers were not protected in any way, and neither were the riders. The fact that the clones have had more formalized training doesn't mean they're less susceptible to Sith lightning, nor does it matter. As he's already shown, Bane possesses the ability to telekinetically obliterate an entire temple, which means that his destructive ability there would also apply to "defenseless" non-Force users. Were their positions reversed, Bane could almost certainly accomplish the same feat in multiple ways.

Originally posted by Faunus
Fast learner, but too young to be truly "powerful" in the grand scheme of things. The point is, he mastered the lightning ability in an hour to a higher degree than she had in a much longer period of time.

Which leads us to two possible conclusions; Githany was a pathetic weakling or Bane was extremely powerful. I would assume that Githany wasn't particularly powerful and Bane was prodigious.

Originally posted by Faunus
You clearly know very little about the material; don't argue from ignorance. Bane himself considered Kaan powerful, as he reflects upon in RoT. Kopecz was notably powerful as well, as was Sirak amongst the trainees; the senior Dark Lords has suspected him to be the sith'ari prior to Bane's arrival.

But did they ACTUALLY prove themselves to be powerful? I haven't read the material in a long time, yes, but I'm not completely ignorant. Prove that Kopecz was notably powerful, and show me how Sirak, a trainee, can possibly match Bane circa his fight with Kas'im.

Originally posted by Faunus
Wait: full potential? At thirty-six? You're either joking, or being moronic.

I meant as in the most powerful incarnation of him that we've seen. And besides, 36 is definetly the physical prime of most people.

Originally posted by Faunus
Good job taking things completely out of context. The Jedi he tried to kill with it (Johun) was not the Jedi who deflected the lightning back upon him. Worror was noted as a powerful Jedi Master, and it was his last-ditch effort executed upon an opponent who thought he was dead that managed to succeed.
It's already been done, and multiple times.
You would need to back that statement up if you expect to actually use it, and it's not even remotely relevant to the fight; just you trying to find a way to fellate Sidious some more.

Err.. no, you failed to prove it, but seeing as you can't acknowledge that Yoda, who was also desperate and had to kill Sidious at all costs will likely summon up a defensive technique far more potent than what a half-dead, vastly inferior Jedi would be capable of doing.

My statement regarding Sidious being vastly more skilled in lightsaber combat than Traya, Nihilus, and Sion was proven by me multiple times; it's very relevant, in case they engage in lightsaber combat. Of course, it most likely wouldn't happen, but if they decide to be morons and attack him with their lightsabers, he could probably beat them; he did the same in the space of 10 seconds to three people who are actually known to be highly potent lightsaber fighters.

But anyways, Faunus, if you would like, we can move this debate to RoT Bane vs. DE Sidious, and simply argue on RotS Sidious vs. RoT Bane; it's definetly more relevant there.

The statement taken from the Complete Visual Dictionary is not one from a fallible, in-universe party. By the time of Attack of the Clones, Palpatine is referred to as "the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power" -- this is before any of his political accomplishments or accolades, clearly not a reference to political influence.

Edit: I would also take the time to point out the unparalleled effect that Palpatine's very presence had on the Force; he was capable of deceiving the collective might of the Jedi Council (whose senior member was the "most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known"; he was capable of performing rituals that increased anxiety on the aforementioned Grandmaster and numerous other Jedi Knights; he was the "darkness" in the Force that was blunting Jedi perception and even diminishing their ability to use the Force (according to Mace Windu in AotC).

Exept that Visas, his apprentice, said that he did.



No, it makes it sem that if he can match him after one hour, then he can exceed him after ten years.



The very fact that he didn't turn himself to ash, which was his less powerful, 10 yrs younger versions best usage of the attack, proves that he wasn't trying to go full out. Plus its well documented that Sith like to play with their meat first.




Likely, mabye. Proven, no. Their are any number of ways thet Sidious could have created that Holocron without using the force, including creating it synthetically in one of the numerous farctories and workshops located in his domain.




I laugh at this. Moving as 'a blur' isn't that impressive when compared to 'time stood still' Bane.



Yoda used a normal Force shield, Worror used some freaky blue shield crap that actualyy materialised visibly. Theirs no way to compare the two. Plus, Worror WAS powerful and threw everything into that attack, Yoda clearly didn't as He wasn't even breathing heavily afterwards. Plus being half-dead doesn't mean that your less powerful, Sion didn't seem to care.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Exept that Visas, his apprentice, said that he did.

And while Vader, a being that resents Sidious and seeks numerous ways to defeat him, is fallible, Visas, an apprentice that was IN ABSOLUTE AWE of Nihilus' power was perfectly objective. Right. And can you really prove that Nihilus didn't use a prolonged ritual in order to unleash his drain all over the planet? Doubt it.



Originally posted by Darth Exodus
No, it makes it sem that if he can match him after one hour, then he can exceed him after ten years.

Yeah. If the size of the attack is all that mattered, then yeah, he would match him- but the only indicator of its strength was a not exceptionally powerful Sith. The fact is, I SERIOUSLY doubt Bane will be able to pull off Sidious-level lightning one hour after he learned his technique.



Originally posted by Darth Exodus
The very fact that he didn't turn himself to ash, which was his less powerful, 10 yrs younger versions best usage of the attack, proves that he wasn't trying to go full out. Plus its well documented that Sith like to play with their meat first.

And that's why he didn't immediately kill Johun with his saber; err, no, his lightning was going at killing intensity at Johun, while afterwards, I see no reason why he wouldn't enhance the intensity when he realized he was in danger, like Sidious did against Vader. And by the way, Bane was protected by the orbalisks and had his natural force defenses against the attack, otherwise he would most certainly have been ashed.




Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Likely, mabye. Proven, no. Their are any number of ways thet Sidious could have created that Holocron without using the force, including creating it synthetically in one of the numerous farctories and workshops located in his domain.

While that's true, you can't prove a large amount of your points. But I don't have much knowledge of Sidious' creation of the holocrons and such, so I'll drop this point, simply due to my lack of information. Maybe someone else can pick it up.




Originally posted by Darth Exodus
I laugh at this. Moving as 'a blur' isn't that impressive when compared to 'time stood still' Bane.

Sidious was a blur to the point that Anakin Skywalker, a being who is the VAST superior to the people who attacked Bane, and had the highest known raw power in galactic history, saw only Sidious' saber- in addition, every time Sidious is seen fighting, his speed is mentioned. Also note that in his fight against Yoda- which couldn't have had the invisible people-level speed due to the fact that it was movie- Sidious was still portrayed as one of the absolute fastest attackers within the movie saga. In DE, meanwhile, Sidious' duel with Luke was so fast he could not even be seen- and due to the fact that Sidious' mastery of the force is greater than Bane's, there no reason why he shouldn't use force speed to a higher degree than Bane.

On another note, Bane's style- Djem So- was based on strength, while both of Sidious' generally accepted fighting styles- Ataru and Juyo- rely on speed and unpredictability.



Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Yoda used a normal Force shield, Worror used some freaky blue shield crap that actualyy materialised visibly. Theirs no way to compare the two. Plus, Worror WAS powerful and threw everything into that attack, Yoda clearly didn't as He wasn't even breathing heavily afterwards. Plus being half-dead doesn't mean that your less powerful, Sion didn't seem to care.

Now it's my turn to say 'lol' about what you said; Yoda was ABSOLUTELY giving his everything into the attack, as seen when he clearly looked pained and desperate when he was trying to block the attack- he needed to kill Sidious more than anything else, far more than Worror needed to kill Bane, and was also FAR more powerful than Worror. In addition, duirng the tunnel escape part, Yoda is clearly shown to be very tired, actually panting.

And as the best documented surviving half-dead person in the saga, Vader, lost much of his potential and his power, I see no reason why Worror, who was even more critically wounded than Mustafar Vader and had no life support systems would be capable of summoning a powerful defensive barrier.

It isn't "generally accepted" that Sidious used Ataru and Juyo; he certainly mastered Juyo (and likely Ataru), but his form of choice remains ambiguous.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
But anyway, let's least that advantages of both combatants:

Sidious: Faster, has apparently far better control, technique, and mastery."Far?" So we're just tacking on favorable adjectives now? No, at best, Sidious has a notable, if minor, advantage here, and it's certainly not going to be an absolutely deciding factor.
I'd love to see you substantiate that claim.
His most destructive ability as of PoD. You really need to learn to keep your time periods in line.
The beast rider live in the jungle and ride twenty-meter monsters for transportation; their own "conditioning" is nothing to scoff at. And this point is pretty much completely irrelevant, because any real difference in resistance would be minute.

And what "power"?
Covered below.
And that explanation falls flat on its face, because it's pretty stupid.
Insult.
I'm trying not to, believe me, but you're being excruciatingly dense.
Or, Githany was notably talented and Bane just blew her out of the water.

We've actually seen very few people (read: Skywalkers) with such an affinity for the Force, so the fact that Bane was so much faster than Githany shouldn't count against her.
You had me fooled.
He dispatches some of the most elite security in the galaxy with such ease that the best of them manages to get off two shots, and kills a Jedi Knight with Sith lightning instantly while casually Force-choking another to death.
Never even implied that.
Which means jack all in Star Wars. You think Yoda, Sidious, Dooku, or Luke (as of LotF) are anywhere close to their physical primes?

But we should let this pass, as it has no bearing on the fight.
I proved it definitively, actually. You're looking only at what the Jedi did, and from an uninformed and skewed viewpoint, while completely ignoring the circumstances at hand and what was going on with their respective Sith opponents.
Well I'm not arguing that Sidious wouldn't beat any of them individually, but you keep making things out to complete ownage on his part, which is both unnecessary and often factually wrong
Sion isn't some muppet, as you would apparently like him to be. He does have a lightsaber, and is backed by two of the most overwhelmingly powerful Sith in history. Sidious would get annihilated before he could open his mouth to do that ludicrous scream w/ spinning thing.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
And while Vader, a being that resents Sidious and seeks numerous ways to defeat him, is fallible, Visas, an apprentice that was IN ABSOLUTE AWE of Nihilus' power was perfectly objective. Right. And can you really prove that Nihilus didn't use a prolonged ritual in order to unleash his drain all over the planet? Doubt it.Clearly, you don't understand what the burden of proof is. You made a claim that has no basis in fact; me telling you to prove it requires you to do so, or concede the point. I don't have to prove that he "didn't" do something, especially when nothing contradicts the point but your own unwillingness to believe it.
1) No one called it "Sidious-level." I pointed out that such a demonstration occurred an hour after he'd begun learning the technique, and that logically, over a decade later his power and control would've grown considerably.

2) You made the rather foolish assertion that lightning produced in larger quantities would have "minimal" power:

Lightning is lightning, and the aforementioned period of 10+ years to refine his abilities would make this completely irrelevant. The fact that he can fill a space far larger than that taken up by a few dozen stormtroopers with lightning - again, a mere hour after beginning to learn the technique - coupled with his actual demonstrations of sheer power would indicate that he could do the same thing Palps did. Not to mention that he clearly has the capability to do so with telekinesis, anyway.
This is why we read the material before debating it.

1) Killing intensity =/= full power, unless you actually need to completely pulverize / disintegrate someone to kill them. Never mind that the target is, at this point, a crippled weakling.

2) Bane didn't realize he was in danger, as I've already told you at least twice. Worror - who he thought was dead - had gathered all of his power for one last effort at stopping Bane, and when the Sith casually fired off the lightning to finish off Johun, he created a tight blue orb that entrapped the lightning and caused to rebound into Bane.

3) Force defenses aren't always active, and just being Force-sensitive doesn't make one resistant to Force-based elements.

4) Bane was not protected by the orbalisks, and I'm incredibly surprised that after at least three people have told you so multiple times, you haven't gotten it through your head yet. It was the orbalisks that crippled him; unlike Bane himself, the creatures couldn't withstand the lightning, as electricity is the only known thing that can kill them (even then, it requires either special application or extreme intensity, i.e. "millions" of volts). When they were dying, they began digging even deeper into his flesh and bone before releasing toxins that were presumably deadlier than one of the most dangerous synthetic poisons in the galaxy (see PoD).
I've proven pretty much all of mine, whether you're willing to accept that or not.
Which was stated in an N-Canon section of the book. And don't give me the "GL approved it" BS. It didn't happen in the movie, so it doesn't matter.
Completely irrelevant, since Anakin couldn't even beat Obi-Wan in contests of speed (dueling) or power.
And every time Yoda fights, the fact that he's short and green is mentioned. Wow.
Which doesn't matter, because the speeds we see in the movies are not representative of what actually was.
Bane, at 25.
Except that, in his early twenties, Bane was capable of moving at speeds beyond the perceptions of other trained Force-users. As in they couldn't see him.
Uh, again, different techniques, completely different circumstances.

Worror:
- Bane thought he was dead
- burst not aimed at him
- lightning presumably not at full power
- didn't block head-on, used a unique "orb" technique to trap lightning in close proximity to the Sith

Yoda:
- Sidious was, clearly, fully aware of his presence
- faced a blast aimed directly at him
- lightning was at full power
- blocked it head-on, with his bare hands, and forced it back upon Sidious

You're just full of surprises.

So getting your throat slashed is more "critical" than losing every single limb and being burned to a crisp in lava to the extent that you need every sensory or vital organ replaced or synthetically augmented.

News to me.

And I'm pretty sure one of Sidious' most powerful displays of lightning occurred when he was at death's door: namely, killing two Jedi with one burst each. Physical condition, to some extent, doesn't affect one's power output.

Dang, I'm not reading all of that crap!

I bow to Faunus' superiority, he truly deserves it.

oh and BTW



Obi-wan matched this when he was 18

Originally posted by Faunus
"Far?" So we're just tacking on favorable adjectives now? No, at best, Sidious has a notable, if minor, advantage here, and it's certainly not going to be an absolutely deciding factor.

It's a notable advantage, as seen by the comparison of RotS Sidious' most impressive force feat and Bane's most impressive force feat. In Sidious' case, it's arguably the clouding of the entire force and the destruction of the Jedi's precognition capabilities, causing them to be blinded and leave him undetected, in addition to increasing the power of the dark side- such a thing should require very fine and apt control. More so, Bane's most impressive feat, once again, arguably, is the direction and pinpointing of the massive attack used by the 25 Sith; such a thing should require an immense amount of power in order to actually handle that force, but probably less control than the clouding thing. Sidious' control could very well be the winning factor of the fight.

Originally posted by Faunus
I'd love to see you substantiate that claim.

I said arguably for a reason, and if there's a difference, there isn't a notable one. As one's inherent power (raw power) shouldn't be able to actually be increased, then DE Sidious' force storms should very possibly be the EPITOME of raw power- it would require an incredible amount of raw power to summon that up. However, Bane had also displayed some highly impressive feats regarding raw power, so I don't think there's enough evidence to truly prove either superior to the other.
Originally posted by Faunus
His most destructive ability as of PoD. You really need to learn to keep your time periods in line.

As of PoD, yes, and did he really display anything stronger in RoT? If so, enlighten me.
Originally posted by Faunus
The beast rider live in the jungle and ride twenty-meter monsters for transportation; their own "conditioning" is nothing to scoff at. And this point is pretty much completely irrelevant, because any real difference in resistance would be minute.

Accurate. It's not to 'scoff' at, but nevertheless, armored, enhanced, and very well conditioned stormtroopers should have at least slightly better defenses than those Riders.

Originally posted by Faunus
Insult.

How charming.

Originally posted by Faunus
I'm trying not to, believe me, but you're being excruciatingly dense.

Great, I apprecitate the 'attempts'. But I really don't see how I'm being 'excruciatingly dense', as you put it, but whatever. This is a debate, not a "Who is the better basher" fight. If it was, believe me, my attitude would be slightly different.

Originally posted by Faunus
Or, Githany was notably talented and Bane just blew her out of the water.

Or that. But you will have to prove to me Githany was a powerful fighter; personally, I'd say she was competent, but definetly not exactly powerful.

Originally posted by Faunus
We've actually seen very few people (read: Skywalkers) with such an affinity for the Force, so the fact that Bane was so much faster than Githany shouldn't count against her.

It should count both against HER and for HIM. If someone who trained for one hour surpassed someone who trained for a much longer period of time, it's definetly saying something about BOTH of them.
Originally posted by Faunus
You had me fooled.

Hooray. Some more of the witty insults.

Originally posted by Faunus
He dispatches some of the most elite security in the galaxy with such ease that the best of them manages to get off two shots, and kills a Jedi Knight with Sith lightning instantly while casually Force-choking another to death.

Interesting. Were those Knights any good?

Originally posted by Faunus
Which means jack all in Star Wars. You think Yoda, Sidious, Dooku, or Luke (as of LotF) are anywhere close to their physical primes?

DE Sidious is at his physical prime, and we saw exactly how that helped him; RotS Sidious is definetly beyond his prime, so he can't use the same level of strength and endurance as he could in his prime; his speed was gained only by extreme usage of the force.


Originally posted by Faunus
I proved it definitively, actually. You're looking only at what the Jedi did, and from an uninformed and skewed viewpoint, while completely ignoring the circumstances at hand and what was going on with their respective Sith opponents.

No, you're refusing to understand the fact that a half-dead- yes, it COUNTS- Jedi could fully deflect Bane's lightning while the most powerful Jedi in HISTORY was incapable of doing the same to Sidious' lightning.

Originally posted by Faunus
Sion isn't some muppet, as you would apparently like him to be. He does have a lightsaber, and is backed by two of the most overwhelmingly powerful Sith in history. Sidious would get annihilated before he could open his mouth to do that ludicrous scream w/ spinning thing.

But Sion, being probably the least intelligent and powerful of the trio, is likely to charge him with the lightsaber, and Sidious could simply destroy him in a saber fight. But yeah, it doesn't really matter.

Darth Exodus, do me a favor and don't intervene in this argument unless you have something good to say. And that's not saying that Obi-Wan matched it at 18, when DE Sidious' and Luke's duel was so fast it was seen as an extreme blur, invisible to all, and was stated to be the greatest duel in history, bar none (I personally disagree, but w/e, as it was officially stated). And Sidious' blur-level speed and viciousness was FAR beyond anything Obi-Wan achieved.

Partually becuase of time, but also for you, I will be glad to stand back and watch you make half-assed arguments like the one above. Cao

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Partually becuase of time, but also for you, I will be glad to stand back and watch you make half-assed arguments like the one above. Cao

You might as well enjoy yourself, Exodus, watching me make "half-assed arguments like the ones above" explaining why Bane isn't the ultimate being, after all. Though I doubt I will shatter your fantasy.

You know what, Faunus? I'm going to, rather than counter each one of your points individually and boringly, going to write an 'essay' of sorts and explain to you percisely why I think Sidious is the slight superior in both force powers and saber abilities- don't get me wrong, I think you believe I said that Sidious would easily defeat Bane, which is just BS. I have to be a serious fanboy in order to believe something like that. But first of all:


Originally posted by Faunus
Which was stated in an N-Canon section of the book. And don't give me the "GL approved it" BS. It didn't happen in the movie, so it doesn't matter.
Completely irrelevant, since Anakin couldn't even beat Obi-Wan in contests of speed (dueling) or power.

Err... yeah, GL APPROVED it. According to the author, GL read it word-by-word and approved everything in it; according to McDiarmid, who I doubt would lie, Sidious was said, in the script, to be one of the fastest swordsmen around. Think of it as what Anakin would see if he saw the duel; if GL didn't intend Sidious to be a blindingly fast swordsmen, he would've had it REMOVED.

And Obi-Wan was hardly a slouch; although he wasn't particularly competent in the force, his saber skills were some of the best around and he was pretty fast. Anakin simply couldn't penetrate his Soresu defenses; in addition, Djem So is based on power, not speed, and Anakin was still extremely fast.

Going on your points as to how the character's speed in the movie doesn't count, then how do you explain the fact that each character's fighting style seems to be very close to the EU counterparts of it (other than Mace). Obi-Wan was very defensive, Dooku used primarily one-handed Makashi movements, Anakin used brute force and Grievous used his blade-spinning tricks; thus, I'd personally say that the movie's depiction of the swordfights is VERY relevant; Mace's slow speed in the movie is often seen as non-canon because he's depicted as very fast in most EU sources. Meanwhile, Sidious was extremely fast in the movie and in absolutely every EU Source; speed is the only definete advantage Sidious has in swordsmanship. And to Gideon; I personally believe Sidious is a Juyo practician, but Ataru, based on descriptions of his fights, is also a likely candidate for Sidious' fighting style.

Anyway, moving on; now for the actual essay part, since I'm tired of boringly countering every one of your points and simply pissing you off more and more. As I've stated before, I respect you and therefore do not wish to engage you in 'bashing contests'. Now then:

Sabers: As I've stated multiple times, Sidious should have a slight advantage of pure skill in the sabers- Bane has the orbalisks, but Sidious, being a smart, calculated, and very technical fighter should probably find a way to overcome Bane's natural barrier. But to be objective; I will post a list of feats and reasonings that will state both Bane's and Sidious' advantages.

Sidious:

-When Sidious engaged in combat with three of the most powerful swordfighters in history- you can't deny that- he effortlessly outduelled them all while simultaneously fighting with Mace Windu, a being who was a good candidate- along with some other people, like Sidious, Bane, and Yoda- for the best sword duelist up until NJO. Sidious killed them all VERY quickly, and was described as a blur in the fight.

-Sidious stalemated Yoda in lightsaber combat, when Yoda was considered to be the strongest Jedi in history AND the best sword duelist in the order; he even maintained the offensive for the majority of the fight, and once again fought with extreme speed.

-Was stated by Nick Gillard to be a master of every style, already placing his technical knowledge beyond Bane, and was called a 'level 9'; the highest level a swordfighter could achieve. And yes, NG is very much canon.

-Sidious' speed will ultimately be his greatest advantage in the fight- Sidious is arguably, among some few others, the fastest fighter in history and is EVERY SINGLE TIME described as moving with incredible speed. His amazing force powers basically amplify his speed, and his likely style- Juyo- is based on speed, so will all of these factors, I think we can safely conclude that he is, at least, slightly faster than Bane.

Bane:

-When he had perfect knowledge of his enemy, he came very close to defeating who was arguably the best swordfighter in history up to that point, but was later defeated in sabers by Kas'im; this was well before RoT, so therefore, I believe that he should be at least capable of matching dual-sabers Kas'im by that point.

-Managed to simultaneously fight off one extremely skilled Jedi and one somewhat skilled Jedi, despite them having BM on; while Raskta is a highly impressive combatant on her own, Farfalla isn't one of THE BEST ever. Ultimately, using his brute, incredible power, he was capable of knocking them away, and despite nearly losing to BMed Raskta, he ultimately managed to get the upper hand and after Zannah sneak-attacked Raskta, was able to defeat his opposition.

-Was a SUPERB master of Djem So.

-Now then, like Sidious has his speed, Bane's absolute greatest advantage is his orbalisks, along with his brute strength; through that, he will probably force Sidious to his limit due to his nigh-impenetrate defense; though, provided Sidious can create an opening with his blade, he could hit Bane with a one-handed gout of lightning, which will end the fight.

So, overall, seeing these points I personally came to the conclusion that Sidious is Bane's slight superior in technical knowledge and speed, while Bane is stronger and better protected than Sidious; however, Sidious, having effectively beat and stalemated (Mace Windu, by his own admission, was being overwhelmed and could only match Sidious until broken window/shatterpoint came into play) some of the greatest swordsmen in history, should be capable of scraping a victory 6/10 times or so. Nothing too notable, just a slight advantage.

Now then, I'll admit; I'm a lot less apt in arguments regarding force abilities than saber skills, so I'll do my best to argue for Sidious' once again, SLIGHT dominance in this field. I'll use the same format as my previous argument.

Sidious:

-His lightning was capable of nearly overpowering the STRONGEST JEDI IN HISTORY, who was an EXPERT in the force.

-Was capable of utilizing rituals that clouded the minds of an entire planet and summoned up devastating, highly damaging lightning storms throughout Coruscant.

-Most impressively, his sheer presence had the capacity of completely changing the face of the entire force itself, clouding the Jedi's vision and thus allowing both himself to go unnoticed and grow more powerful, along with the dark side.

-His very presence, from Coruscant, was able to corrupt Byss into one of the most powerful Dark Side bastions in history, where he mind-controlled a very large amount of people.

-Was capable of mass-killing armored, genetically-enhanced troopers and reducing trained force-sensitives to ashes.

-Sidious' own power and dark side energies ravaged his mortal frame from inside, disfiguring him to a greater extent than any Sith before him.

Bane:

-Was capable of using lightning, after one hour, that filled up a decent sized and surpassed the lightning of a fairly ordinary Sith. It's my personal belief that his lightning shouldn't have been particularly powerful at that point, but nontheless, it was a highly impressive display.

-Was capable of using sub-atomic manipulations to create holocrons, showing immense control; it's likely Sidious could've done the same with his holocron, but I can't prove it.

-Had the ability to channel and handle the attack of 25 other Sith Lords and use a planet-destroying burst of energy to deforest an entire planet.

-Had his lightning overpowered by Worror; I'll get to this argument later on in the page.

-Was capable of reducing people to ashes with his highly potent force lightning.

-Used uber force pushes, that despite being blocked by Sidious' inferior, might be able to take him by surprise and give Bane an advantage.

Once again, I personally believe that Sidious' demonstrated power- in addition to the quotes supporting the fact that he was a force beast- slightly surpasses Bane, particularly the mind-manipulation powers he displays and his control over the entire force, something no one else in history ever replicated.

Now for a most controversial subject of our argument; Bane vs. Worror/Sidious vs. Yoda. I've already told you the condition of both people; Worror was half-dead, severely injured, and was never displayed to be particularly potent force user, while Yoda was the greatest Jedi in history and although he was perhaps slightly tired, he was uninjured in any way. Regardless, Worror did take Bane by surprise and used a technique that is perhaps more potent than Yoda's.

However, Yoda was far more desperate than Worror in this situation. Worror was dying, anyways, and he most definetly knew it, and thus unleashed a last-ditch effort to stop the Sith, while it was Yoda's last chance; and I meant LAST, especially after he lost his lightsaber- to defeat Sidious. As such, he would logically give his all into the attack and do his best to overpower Sidious, something he failed to do. Regardless, while it's very much possible Bane's lightning wasn't at full-power, it would definetly be aimed at killing intensity and seeing the damage it did to himself; it could almost definetly disinegrate Johun if it did hit him. The protection bubble, while impressive, still can't be compared to the barrier a healthy, much stronger Jedi could summon up; while Worror's technique was a bubble of sorts, the fact still stands that I seriously don't believe that a far more potent, less injured, and more desperate Jedi would be capable of summoning.

For all of these reasons, I believe that Sidious' is ultimately Bane's superior in force powers; this is also enforced by him being canonically the most powerful Sith Lord in history.

Originally posted by Faunus
It's clearly the most destructive; I can't recall anyone else ever destroying a massive structure with a telekinetic attack.
Luke in the Black Fleet trilogy with Vader's palace?


Also, on the subject of Palpatine to Bane: the NEC is not the only thing backing Palpatine up against Bane...we do know that Bane based his entire order around pupils growing more powerful than the Masters and it was meant so that the Master explicitly chooses pupils with potential to surpass them-Palpatine likely made exceptions with 'placeholder' apprentices such as Maul and Dooku- and Bane felt Zannah could indeed have surpassed him at her full realized potential.

There's also Heritage of the Sith which refers to Palpatine as the most powerful Sith in 'over a thousand years' when his plan is put in to motion, the detail that Palpatine has the Holocron containing all of Bane's dark side knowwledge, as well as the Dark Side sourcebook saying the most powerful of Bane's order is Palpatine.

Before we do this again, thanks for being as calm as you were: I don't mean to be rude, it just tends to happen in these things.
Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
You know what, Faunus? I'm going to, rather than counter each one of your points individually and boringly, going to write an 'essay' of sorts and explain to you percisely why I think Sidious is the slight superior in both force powers and saber abilities-Fine by me.
GL also APPROVED the Dooku fight scene, which completely contradicted that which was seen in the movie. He also APPROVED - and personally oversaw - the creation of the CWC. So I guess that's pretty much G-Canon, too.
None of these have anything to do with the speed at which the actors or stuntmen went through the choreography.
Which is exactly my point.
Anakin and Obi-Wan fought considerably faster than Sidious ever did in the movie, so this doesn't really work.
Counter? lol

--

Now for the rest, in "essay" form:

The Worror issue. Here's the segment, from RoT:

A shimmering blue globe surrounded them both as the mortally wounded Jedi released his own power in his final, dying act.

Instead of arcing across the room to destroy the one-armed Jedi, the lightning that flew from Bane's fingers reflected off the inside of the shimmering blue globe encasing him. The bolts ricocheted around wildly inside the globe, creating a storm of energy so intense that Zannah had to shield her eyes and look away. She heard Bane's scream rising above the sharp crackle of electricity, and when she looked back she saw the globe vanish and her Master fall to the ground in a charred and smoking heap.

If that at all resembles Yoda's shield, I'll eat a giraffe. While both were using all of their available power, the way in which each handled their respective opponent's lightning, as well as the actual intensity - which I'll discuss later - vary tremendously.

By the way, I saw that you again mentioned Bane's "protection" against his own lightning; the orbalisks offer none, and their toxins only worsened his condition. The effect of poisons coupled with his own lightning - which apparently vaporized his clothes and charred his skin - knocked him into a coma, not the reflected Force attack alone.

Moving on - the following discussion of Raskta Lsu lays some of the groundwork for my argument:

Master Raskta Lsu, an Echani, sat at the controls of her ship. She had the alabaster skin, pure white hair, and silver eyes common to all her species. She was almost as tall as Johun, with the muscles and physique one would expect in a species that valued physical combat as the highest form of art and personal expression. Named in honor of the legendary Echani warrior Raskta Fenni, acclaimed by many to be the greatest duelist of her time, Master Raskta had spent her life honing her martial skills so that she could one day equal, and even surpass, her namesake.

She had achieved the rare and prestigious rank of Jedi Weapons Master. Eschewing all other fields of study and forsaking the development of her other Force talents to focus exclusively on the lightsaber and combat, she had transformed herself into a living weapon.

Now tasked with training apprentices in the forms of lightsaber combat, Raskta had been part of the campaign on Ruusan. Wielding a blue-bladed lightsaber in each hand, and shunning any form of armor, she was a terrifying figure to behold on the battlefield. Johun vividly remembered her carving great swaths of destruction through the heart of the enemy ranks, leaving a litter of bodies in her wake. It was said that, by the end of the war, as many Sith Lords had fallen under her twin blades as had been killed by the thought bomb.

Emphasis mine. Clearly, she's formidable. And even backed by Worror's battle meditation, with Farfalla basically running interference with the Force, she never had a chance against Bane.

One of Zannah's observations, before Worror enters his meditative trance:

To her surprise, both of Bane's opponents were still standing; proof they were exceptionally skilled combatants.

Mind you, Zannah had gotten her own ass tooled in seconds when she went up against a ticked off Bane, so she would know.

A note on the effect of Worror's battle meditation:

It had been many years since Farfalla had fought while empowered by Worror's battle meditation. He had forgotten how much quicker and stronger the Ithorian's amazing talent made him feel. The Force flowed through him with greater power, filling him with its might.

Now to tie some of these together - namely, this issue about Worror. As seen above, his battle meditation had a profound impact on its targets, making them "quicker and stronger" to the point that this occurs:

Then, , too, leapt to the side to avoid being crushed, surviving only because his reflexes were heightened by Worror's power.

The BM heightens his power to the point that the "exceptionally skilled" warrior was capable of evading an attack that, otherwise, would've left him a broken mess, trampled into the ground.

*On a quick side note, this also serves as a demonstration of Bane's own considerable speed - he almost managed to kill two Jedi Masters, with the aforementioned narrative praise attributed to both, by running them over, and apparently Farfalla only managed to escape death because of Worror's "amazing talent." That, and the fact that he was easily capable of sprinting at speeds in excess of 120 kilometers per hour over appreciable distances.

Back to the main point; his superiority over the two Jedi Masters, one of whom is decidedly amazing, with the other being at least exceptional - both before being empowered by BM.

Raskta was already back on her feet and flying through the air toward him. Bane spun and threw a wave of invisible dark side power at her. A Weapons Master was not skilled at defending against enemy Force attacks. The impact of the wave would have plastered her against the wall and crushed her had Farfalla not thrown up a shield to protect the Echani. Even so her muscular body was plucked from the air and hurtled backward, though she twisted and turned so she landed on her feet.

Raskta's focus was earlier stated to be in the dueling arts, and she ignored any Force-training that didn't involve empowering her own physical form, so her weak Force defense is understandable. But even Farfalla's ability couldn't negate a rather casual Force-push from Bane. And I say casual because a previous Force wave in the novel, used ten years before the duel, did this:

Still twirling his light-saber, Bane thrust his empty hand out before him, palm extended as he unleashed the Force in a wave of concussive power at the woman fleeing to his left. The wave cut a swath of devastation through the camp. Tents were uprooted from the ground, their material torn and shredded. Wooden supply crates exploded into kindling, the shattered contents spraying out in a shower of splintered shrapnel.

The Force wave slammed into the woman's back, pulverizing her spine and snapping her neck as it drove her facedown into the dirt and pinned her against the ground. Her corpse twitched once, then went forever still.

A defenseless opponent - pretty much what Master Lsu is, in this case - was simply pulverized, as was everything struck by the massive wave. Of course, he blew down an entire temple, too, as we've discussed many times.

Almost immediately after said attack on Raskta, we have the second important piece leading to my conclusion in the "Worror Issue":

Farfalla saw the Sith Lord turn toward him, sensing the intervention that had saved Raskta's life. Bane unleashed a barrage of Sith lightning, gathering and releasing his power at the speed of thought. The Jedi threw up a Force barrier to shield himself, but the electricity tore right through it and arced toward him. Then suddenly Raskta was there to save his life, repaying a debt that was only a few seconds old as she threw herself in front of him. Fueled by Worror's battle meditation, she switched styles seamlessly, and her arms and blades became a blur as they carved figure eights in the air to catch and absorb the bolts of dark side energy.

The bolded segment is the most important; Farfalla's usage of the Force shield technique that Yoda most likely utilized - and clearly, one that is nothing like Worror's blue orb - failed miserably against Bane. There wasn't even a struggle, as the lightning "tore right through it". And seeing as how Bane's fairly casual Force-push would've crushed Raskta instantly without Farfalla's assistance, and that this particular burst of lightning ripped apart the latter's Force defenses, we can pursue and analyze the following conclusions:

A] This one operates under your logic. If, as you claim, the lightning that would later be used against Johun was the best Bane had - which would mean that the blast demonstrated here couldn't have been any stronger - then a "half-dead" Worror is far superior to Farfalla in Force ability, as apparently mortally wounded Force-users aren't capable of exerting their full power or effort, despite the example of mine that used Sidious in Empire's End as a focal point.

But of course, there are several problems with this one.

- For one, Johun was a whimpering wreck lying on the ground; it would have been completely unnecessary for Bane to push his own limits while applying that one last lightning burst to finish the Jedi off, and Bane is nothing if not efficient. So the attack he used in his attempt to kill Johun was not an all-out effort on his part.

- Two, I've shown that Force-users are capable of rather extreme feats even an inch from death. So Worror being "half-dead" means jack shit.

- Three, the techniques used by Worror and Farfalla / Yoda are completely different. This is evident even in their visible depictions; you cannot argue this.

B] Bane wasn't exerting himself fully in either his Force-push against Raskta or his lightning assault on Johun. This is backed by all the above, which includes text taken directly from RoT. Drawing on this, we can see that Worror's final offensive on Bane, which would have utilized the Jedi's full power, was not an example of someone "overpowering" Bane in any way.

Clearly, B] is the correct conclusion in light of all available evidence.

--

God damn that's long, although it concludes the Yoda v. Sidious / Worror v. Bane debate.

All that said, I see no need to go after sabers, too, although I'll leave with these few points:

- Sidious' consummate knowledge of the lightsaber forms is offset by Bane's complete knowledge of them. He knows, literally, every single possible combination that someone using a single- or double-bladed saber can use to the extent that he was tooling Kas'im - the guy who'd spent decades mastering and refining all seven forms - before the dual-saber card was pulled.

- Any speed advantage, if present at all in this point in time, is negligible at best, given Bane's own prodigious speed and his ridiculous advantage in every other physical category.

- The point about a physical prime - namely, your example using DE Sidious - is redundant, as said Sith Lord spent about three decades refining and expanding his mastery of the Force between RotS and DE. This wasn't RotS Sidious in a younger body against Luke, it was a more experienced man with more acquired power and a younger body.

I don't exactly have a load of time, so I'll just counter on of your points thast doesn't require much deep thinking on my part ^^.
Originally posted by Faunus Anakin and Obi-Wan fought considerably faster than Sidious ever did in the movie, so this doesn't really work.


In the Mace duel? He fought slower than them. In the Yoda duel? He fought just as fast, if not faster, at least later on in the last engagement on the pod when it finished rising. But we can't really prove it, so it's just a matter of observation and all.

We also do have to recall Bane has a distinct issue in a duel with incredible Jedi: the ability to fight without any issues of self preservation. Albeit, Palpatine's force lightning makes things...problematic for Bane, given what happens to the Orbalisks.

As for saber combat: Palpatine's knowledge in such may very well rival or surpass Bane's, given the training he received and his knowledge of 'the forms and styles of the lightsaber' as well as Jar'Kai and having Maul as his pupil.

A problem for Bane is that against someone like Palpatine, who would be both knowledgable in the subject of Bane himself, is that he can't forego self preservation. Palpatine is capable of casting force lightning with one hand and needs only a split second to do so. As well as his exceptional mastery of the saber and speed that could very well be on par with Bane's. While he cannot match him in physical strength alone, Bane needs to devote energy and effort to protecting his head, or other parts of his body from a force assault.

Originally posted by Faunus
GL also APPROVED the Dooku fight scene, which completely contradicted that which was seen in the movie. He also APPROVED - and personally oversaw - the creation of the CWC. So I guess that's pretty much G-Canon, too.

Err... no, the Dooku scene DOES not, whatsoever, contradict what was seen in the movie; it's simply the internal feelings and the things that happen below the surface. CWC happens to be very much canon, as much as we might dislike it; according to Lucas, it was even based on his original vision of Jedi being one-man armies that decimate all in their paths.
Originally posted by Faunus
None of these have anything to do with the speed at which the actors or stuntmen went through the choreography.
Which is exactly my point.
Anakin and Obi-Wan fought considerably faster than Sidious ever did in the movie, so this doesn't really work.

As I've stated already, Sidious fought just as fast in the duel with Yoda- if not faster- than Anakin and Obi-Wan. Also, speed is a highly important part of fighting; I mean, note how we see speed differences between fights; for example, Yoda is also extremely fast, and his style, in fact, is characterized by speed and acrobatics, like Sidious' is governed by speed and unpredictability. Also, in addition, Sidious being shown at his speed level in the movie EMPHASIZES his "need for speed", which he uses to make up for his physical weakness.



--

Originally posted by Faunus
Now for the rest, in "essay" form:

The Worror issue. Here's the segment, from RoT:

A shimmering blue globe surrounded them both as the mortally wounded Jedi released his own power in his final, dying act.

Instead of arcing across the room to destroy the one-armed Jedi, the lightning that flew from Bane's fingers reflected off the inside of the shimmering blue globe encasing him. The bolts ricocheted around wildly inside the globe, creating a storm of energy so intense that Zannah had to shield her eyes and look away. She heard Bane's scream rising above the sharp crackle of electricity, and when she looked back she saw the globe vanish and her Master fall to the ground in a charred and smoking heap.

If that at all resembles Yoda's shield, I'll eat a giraffe. While both were using all of their available power, the way in which each handled their respective opponent's lightning, as well as the actual intensity - which I'll discuss later - vary tremendously.

I have never ONCE denied the fact that Worror used a technique that's certainly DIFFERENT than Yoda's; but once again, Yoda, being a far more competent Jedi, would logically be capable of summoning up a better 'shield' than Worror could. But more on that later.

Originally posted by Faunus
By the way, I saw that you again mentioned Bane's "protection" against his own lightning; the orbalisks offer none, and their toxins only worsened his condition. The effect of poisons coupled with his own lightning - which apparently vaporized his clothes and charred his skin - knocked him into a coma, not the reflected Force attack alone.

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but don't the orbalisks provide limited protection against lightning? Of course, if the lightning is strong enough, they'll be a hindrace, so they should actually count against Bane- at least in the force fight.

Originally posted by Faunus
Moving on - the following discussion of Raskta Lsu lays some of the groundwork for my argument:

Master Raskta Lsu, an Echani, sat at the controls of her ship. She had the alabaster skin, pure white hair, and silver eyes common to all her species. She was almost as tall as Johun, with the muscles and physique one would expect in a species that valued physical combat as the highest form of art and personal expression. Named in honor of the legendary Echani warrior Raskta Fenni, acclaimed by many to be the greatest duelist of her time, Master Raskta had spent her life honing her martial skills so that she could one day equal, and even surpass, her namesake.

She had achieved the rare and prestigious rank of Jedi Weapons Master. Eschewing all other fields of study and forsaking the development of her other Force talents to focus exclusively on the lightsaber and combat, she had transformed herself into a living weapon.

Now tasked with training apprentices in the forms of lightsaber combat, Raskta had been part of the campaign on Ruusan. Wielding a blue-bladed lightsaber in each hand, and shunning any form of armor, she was a terrifying figure to behold on the battlefield. Johun vividly remembered her carving great swaths of destruction through the heart of the enemy ranks, leaving a litter of bodies in her wake. It was said that, by the end of the war, as many Sith Lords had fallen under her twin blades as had been killed by the thought bomb.

Emphasis mine. Clearly, she's formidable. And even backed by Worror's battle meditation, with Farfalla basically running interference with the Force, she never had a chance against Bane.

And I said previously that Raskta was most definetly an amazing combatant; however, she came very close to defeating Bane on HER OWN during the fight. While she is certainly no Kas'im or Bane, she's extremely formidable and would, alone, unaided by Battle Meditation, put up a decent fight against Bane- definetly not win, but definetly no "WTFpwn". And formidable as she is, Mace is her definite superior in saber combat, and Sidious was very capable of fending off Mace while simultaneously fighting with Fisto, Tiin, and Kolar.

Originally posted by Faunus
One of Zannah's observations, before Worror enters his meditative trance:

To her surprise, both of Bane's opponents were still standing; proof they were exceptionally skilled combatants.

Mind you, Zannah had gotten her own ass tooled in seconds when she went up against a ticked off Bane, so she would know.

Yeah, they would. Bane >> Zannah, definetly, and Farfalla was most definetly 'formidable'; Raskta was incredible, and Farfalla was generally formidable, though I doubt he's on Agen Kolar's level; also, Farfalla was also tooled by Bane when the battle meditation vanished.

Originally posted by Faunus
A note on the effect of Worror's battle meditation:

It had been many years since Farfalla had fought while empowered by Worror's battle meditation. He had forgotten how much quicker and stronger the Ithorian's amazing talent made him feel. The Force flowed through him with greater power, filling him with its might.

Now to tie some of these together - namely, this issue about Worror. As seen above, his battle meditation had a profound impact on its targets, making them "quicker and stronger" to the point that this occurs:

Then, , too, leapt to the side to avoid being crushed, surviving only because his reflexes were heightened by Worror's power.

The BM heightens his power to the point that the "exceptionally skilled" warrior was capable of evading an attack that, otherwise, would've left him a broken mess, trampled into the ground.

Yes, Worror's battle meditation is, of course, a highly impressive force power, but nontheless, Farfalla is Bane's FAR inferior when they fight on equal grounds; this is proven by things like that. Bane would've crushed him if they fought equally, but nontheless, it's still my belief that Farfalla, a being who had his strength backed up only by being "exceptionally skilled" and being a Jedi Lord (once again, with the Jedi, titles are pointless), would probably be defeated in combat by one of the greatest swordsmen the order had ever known; this, I think would be accurate. Farfalla < Tiin/Fisto < Kolar < Raskta < Mace. But do you think Bane could have easily defeated three stronger versions of Farfalla coming at him at ONCE? I doubt it.

Originally posted by Faunus
*On a quick side note, this also serves as a demonstration of Bane's own considerable speed - he almost managed to kill two Jedi Masters, with the aforementioned narrative praise attributed to both, by running them over, and apparently Farfalla only managed to escape death because of Worror's "amazing talent." That, and the fact that he was easily capable of sprinting at speeds in excess of 120 kilometers per hour over appreciable distances.

Sidious had also moved at speeds that are beyond the eye can follow; while his stamina is hardly at Bane's level, he IS capable of traveling faster than him over short distances. Of course Bane is fast; it's just that Sidious' saber skills are almost entirely about his speed.

Originally posted by Faunus
Back to the main point; his superiority over the two Jedi Masters, one of whom is decidedly amazing, with the other being at least exceptional - both before being empowered by BM.

In pure sabers, when Raskta realized his weakness, he was being nearly defeated; he demonstrated his definite superiority over them with the force.

Originally posted by Faunus
Raskta was already back on her feet and flying through the air toward him. Bane spun and threw a wave of invisible dark side power at her. A Weapons Master was not skilled at defending against enemy Force attacks. The impact of the wave would have plastered her against the wall and crushed her had Farfalla not thrown up a shield to protect the Echani. Even so her muscular body was plucked from the air and hurtled backward, though she twisted and turned so she landed on her feet.

Yes, Raskta's inferior force defense is very much understandable; it was definetly a force push on possibly the level you have shown below, as it was made clear that it could probably have killed her.

Originally posted by Faunus
A defenseless opponent - pretty much what Master Lsu is, in this case - was simply pulverized, as was everything struck by the massive wave. Of course, he blew down an entire temple, too, as we've discussed many times.

In the heat of a saber duel against Sidious, this force push will be next to useless as Sidious, who is Kas'im definite superior, would be capable of blocking a 'casual' force push from Bane with ease. Even a push from an enraged Bane should be blocked without too much difficulty.

Originally posted by Faunus
Farfalla saw the Sith Lord turn toward him, sensing the intervention that had saved Raskta's life. Bane unleashed a barrage of Sith lightning, gathering and releasing his power at the speed of thought. The Jedi threw up a Force barrier to shield himself, but the electricity tore right through it and arced toward him. Then suddenly Raskta was there to save his life, repaying a debt that was only a few seconds old as she threw herself in front of him. Fueled by Worror's battle meditation, she switched styles seamlessly, and her arms and blades became a blur as they carved figure eights in the air to catch and absorb the bolts of dark side energy.

The bolded segment is the most important; Farfalla's usage of the Force shield technique that Yoda most likely utilized - and clearly, one that is nothing like Worror's blue orb - failed miserably against Bane. There wasn't even a struggle, as the lightning "tore right through it". And seeing as how Bane's fairly casual Force-push would've crushed Raskta instantly without Farfalla's assistance, and that this particular burst of lightning ripped apart the latter's Force defenses, we can pursue and analyze the following conclusions:

I seriously doubt the fact that Bane's push was 'casual', as you put it, due to mainly the fact that it would have definetly killed Raskta, something that force pushes are rarely able to do. It would have had the same effect as it did on the woman against which Bane used the technique. And do me a favor; do not, under any circumstances, compare a force barrier used by Farfalla to a force barrier used by Yoda. One is probably only a slightly above average Jedi who never displayed any highly impressive force feats- especially if the force push was 'casual', as you put it- while Yoda was the greatest Jedi in history and a near force god. The fact that Bane's almost definetly full-powered lightning easily broke through the barrier shouldn't be seen as a highly impressive feat.

Originally posted by Faunus
A] This one operates under your logic. If, as you claim, the lightning that would later be used against Johun was the best Bane had - which would mean that the blast demonstrated here couldn't have been any stronger - then a "half-dead" Worror is far superior to Farfalla in Force ability, as apparently mortally wounded Force-users aren't capable of exerting their full power or effort, despite the example of mine that used Sidious in Empire's End as a focal point.

Err... Worror is most DEFINETLY the far superior to Farfalla in terms of force abilities; I will concede by now that he's a generally powerful force user, but he's still NOTHING compared to Yoda. Half-dead force users shouldn't be capable of harnessing the same level of power as fully alive and intact force users; Sidious' usage of the lightning on his deathbed makes the instant kills he pulled on Jedi all the more impressive. I don't see any reason why Bane should possibly take any risks; as you said, he's efficient, so why not harness the full power of his lightning in the certain killing move? There's absolutely no reason why he wouldn't use his full power to kill Johun.

But of course, there are several problems with this one.

Originally posted by Faunus
- For one, Johun was a whimpering wreck lying on the ground; it would have been completely unnecessary for Bane to push his own limits while applying that one last lightning burst to finish the Jedi off, and Bane is nothing if not efficient. So the attack he used in his attempt to kill Johun was not an all-out effort on his part.

Johun was injured, but he wasn't seriously injured; he was very much alive, unlike Worror. And as you said, Bane is most definetly a highly efficient combatant, so thus, why wouldn't he go all-out on the attack in order to minimize the risk? Why not decimate the Jedi that nearly cut off his hand?

Originally posted by Faunus
- Two, I've shown that Force-users are capable of rather extreme feats even an inch from death. So Worror being "half-dead" means jack shit.

Sion was still alive in the sense that he kept on going using the dark side, and Sidious' lightning was most probably not on full potency when he used it aganist the Jedi later on due to him being in a position of being 'near-dead'.

Originally posted by Faunus
- Three, the techniques used by Worror and Farfalla / Yoda are completely different. This is evident even in their visible depictions; you cannot argue this.

And did I attempt to say that it was the same technique? No, it wasn't, but once again, I see absolutely no reason why a more potent and more desperate Jedi wouldn't summon up a more powerful technique than Worror's blue sphere. I'll talk about it later.

Originally posted by Faunus
B] Bane wasn't exerting himself fully in either his Force-push against Raskta or his lightning assault on Johun. This is backed by all the above, which includes text taken directly from RoT. Drawing on this, we can see that Worror's final offensive on Bane, which would have utilized the Jedi's full power, was not an example of someone "overpowering" Bane in any way.

EVEN if what you think is correct- and Bane's lightning was NOT at full power- Worror still most definetly overpowered Bane, due to the fact that his lightning COULD not penetrate and was deflected by Worror's powerful defensive technique; the fact is, Bane was exauhsted and needed to kill the dude who nearly cut off his hand. I see absolutely no reason why Bane wouldn't go all-out on Johun in order to absolutely ensure the fact that Johun will die, and quickly at that; seeing the immense damage the lightning did to Bane would simply pose another reason as to calculate the rough power of the lightning he shot on Johun. Yoda, similarly, was SUPREMELY more competent than Worror, was perfectly ALIVE, and used his full-power, and yet he still, nevertheless, failed to overpower Sidious with it. Even if Bane's lightning was on, say, 80% power, which might very well be accurate, it still got totally overpowered by a Jedi who is Yoda's vast inferior, while Yoda, at 100%, could not deflect Sidious' lightning. Being far more experienced and more powerful than Worror, why wouldn't Yoda know the same technique that Worror used if it ensures the lightning is deflected? Yoda would do everything to kill Sidious, as it was his last chance of doing so.

Originally posted by Faunus
Clearly, B] is the correct conclusion in light of all available evidence.

I respectfully disagree, but I doubt you'll concede to my arguments, and seeing as I will most likely not concede, either, maybe we should drop the whole Worror argument.

--

Originally posted by Faunus
All that said, I see no need to go after sabers, too, although I'll leave with these few points:

- Sidious' consummate knowledge of the lightsaber forms is offset by Bane's complete knowledge of them. He knows, literally, every single possible combination that someone using a single- or double-bladed saber can use to the extent that he was tooling Kas'im - the guy who'd spent decades mastering and refining all seven forms - before the dual-saber card was pulled.

Wrong, Bane was very much familiar with the specific combinations Kas'im harnessed; it's definetly not the same cominations as other people used. Not every, say, Makashi user is the same, and therefore, I don't see a reason why Sidious- a MASTER of all forms, something Bane could not say he is- couldn't still use unpredictability against him.

Originally posted by Faunus
- Any speed advantage, if present at all in this point in time, is negligible at best, given Bane's own prodigious speed and his ridiculous advantage in every other physical category.

Sidious' speed advantage most definetly exists as I've stated and given proof of multiple times; it may not be extreme, but it's most definetly there. Bane's adantages are strength, stamina, and orbalisks, while Sidious' advantages are speed, mastery, and unpredictability; Bane has absolutely no advantage on him in saber combat, other than the orbalisks, and I still see no reason why Sidious couldn't just overwhelm and decapacitate him or create an opening and force-lightning him to death.

Originally posted by Faunus
- The point about a physical prime - namely, your example using DE Sidious - is redundant, as said Sith Lord spent about three decades refining and expanding his mastery of the Force between RotS and DE. This wasn't RotS Sidious in a younger body against Luke, it was a more experienced man with more acquired power and a younger body.

Irrelevant, like you said, as RoT Bane is Bane's most powerful incarnation. Unitl there's a new source displaying a stronger Bane, we'll still have to refer to him as the strongest Bane around; and in fact, a post-RoT Bane will possibly have a worse chance up against Sidious due to the lack of the orbalisks.

What makes Sidious's feat in Empire's End so impressive is that his dark side acolytes and physician confirmed that with every subsequent usage of the Force, the Emperor would be pushed even closer to death; yet he still managed to obliterate two capable Jedi (one or both of whom were capable of defeating the Emperor's highly trained dark Jedi).

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Yeah, they would. Bane >> Zannah, definetly, and Farfalla was most definetly 'formidable'; Raskta was incredible, and Farfalla was generally formidable, though I doubt he's on Agen Kolar's level; also, Farfalla was also tooled by Bane when the battle meditation vanished.Being violently cut off from battle meditation weakens an individual considerably, as we see with Johun:

Instead, the powerful push struck Worror, throwing him into the corner as the lightsaber strike that would have cut him in two swished harmlessly through the air.

Johun felt his strength and energy plummet, A wave of exhaustion and fatigue overwhelmed him, the beneficial effects of the battle meditation vanishing as Worror's concentration was broken.

Not that any of this actually detracts from Bane...
There's nothing putting Saesee Tinn above Farfalla: Obi-Wan believed all four Jedi to be some of the greatest swordsmen the Order had ever produced, while the narrator gives that praise only to Mace and Agen. Fisto's pretty lethal in his own right, but other than being an amazing pilot there's very little reason to put Tinn above Farfalla. I agree with the rest, though.
Which in no way implies that his speed is greater, only that he relies on it more than Bane does.
It's pretty clear that you've never read RoT, or even bothered to Wiki it to any real effect:

He spun back to the fight to see that the Echani Weapons Master had taken the offensive, sending quick flicks of her blue blades toward Bane's unprotected face-the only spot on his body seemingly not covered by the impenetrable shells. Remarkably, Bane was giving ground.

"Stay back!" she shouted at Farfalla. "You'll just get in the way."

Farfalla did as he was told, gathering the energies of the light side to throw up another protective Force barrier should Bane try to unleash his dark side powers against the Echani.

She seemed to be everywhere at once-in front of Bane, beside him, behind him, circling low, leaping to come in high, deflecting his blade with one of her own then stabbing three quick times in succession at his eyes. The big man's head ducked and bobbed, twisting and turning to avoid her blows as he tried to mount a counteroffensive.

Raskta's mastery of her blades was unparalleled, but even with her talents augmented by Worror's battle meditation she wasn't able to land a telling blow on such a small target through Bane's defenses. Still, the ferocity of her new strategy had turned the momentum in her favor ... or so Farfalla thought.

Bane continued his retreat, circling away from Raskta's blades, then suddenly turned and ran straight toward the unarmed Ithorian standing just inside the door of the room.

He was never in danger of being killed by her. And you're conveniently, and unsurprisingly, ignoring this:

"Go for the face!" Farfalla shouted, arriving on the scene and throwing himself into the battle as Johun did the same.

Together the three of them held the Sith Lord at bay: Farfalla on the left flank, Johun on the right, and Raskta in the center. Between blocks and parries they cut and stabbed at his face, their combined efforts finally forcing their enemy into a defensive stance.

The young Jedi marveled at the speed and savagery of Raskta's blades. And while Johun's own clumsy efforts had actually seemed to impede Sarro when they fought side by side, Raskta appeared to thrive off his presence. When he went high, she went low. If he came from the left, she came from the right. It was partly a function of her choice of weapon: individually each of her lightsabers was more precise and accurate than Sarro's giant double blades. But it was more than that. Her reactions were so fast, her combat instincts so pure, that she was able to sense and anticipate what he was going to do even as it happened, then use his attacks to her own advantage.

On her opposite side Farfalla struck with clean, elegant blows, his form perfect as he harried Bane's right flank. Yet though they were able to hold their ground, they couldn't drive him back or defeat him.

They were at an impasse, none of their attacks able to connect with the one vulnerable part of Bane's anatomy.

In the climax of the battle, all three of them attack him at once, all aiming right at his face, and only managed to keep him from running them over. Contrary to your implication, Raskta's "unparalleled" skill is shown to be completely incapable of forcing him back on her own, as she manages to actually use Johun's tactics to her advantage, while Farfalla goes at Bane from the right with "perfect" form, and they still can't even get him to start giving ground.

This makes no sense whatsoever, but okay...
Telling me what "rarely" happens in SW is pretty silly when we're discussing the likes of Bane.

And Force-pushes are "rarely" capable of completely pulverizing massive stone structures, something that Bane accomplished over ten years prior to RoT.
No, it clearly said that she would have been picked up and "plastered" against the wall, crushing her to death. The wave Bane unleashed on the mercenary camp destroyed everything it touched, and shattered the woman's back upon impact: it didn't knock her to the ground, causing her injury, it smacked into her and killed her.

They were not the same level of power, and neither compares to the attack he used on the temple.
Apparently I need to spell everything out to you, to an even further degree than I thought I already had.
"Slightly above average"? So an "exceptional" combatant and a Jedi Master who fought on the front lines of the most overwhelmingly massive Jedi v. Sith conflict in galactic history is "slightly above average"?

You're absolutely ridiculous.
Casual meaning it didn't require his full exertion, and this isn't saying much considering we're discussing Bane.
...
Uh-huh. Then the fact that Sidious' lightning killed three acolytes who "almost definitely" weren't putting up a defense isn't impressive, either.

You can't pick and chose based on what benefits your case, Sidi-Boy, which is exactly what you've been doing this entire debate.
Stop flinging around adjectives. Seriously.
Of course. Because if Sidious does it, it's cool and impressive.

Your lack of objectivity is astounding.

READ the following, or DON'T RESPOND.

1) Bane thought that Worror was dead. Since he'd already killed Farfalla and Zannah had dealt with Serro and Raskta, that would mean he believed Johun to be the only Jedi left.

2) Johun was lying on the ground whimpering in pain (He screamed and dropped to his knees, clutching his cauterized stump...) with Zannah standing mere feet from him. In Bane's mind, the battle was over. Therefore, there would have been no need for him to exert himself any more than was necessary.

3) Bane's lightning - if we were to wrongfully assume that it was being used at full power in any instances - was capable of reducing multiple living beings to ash, charring two enemies to smoking husks in a "few" seconds, and easily ripping through the defenses of a BM'd Jedi Master. Do you really think Johun needs to be disintegrated to be killed? Or that his Force defenses, which weren't even up at the time, would even begin to compare to those of Farfalla?

Take a few minutes to look that over again if you don't follow.

4) Against an enemy described as clumsy and weak who had no chance of escape and was mistakenly believed to be alone, Bane would have no need to use a full-powered lightning blast, or even anything remotely close.

Is that clear?

Then Johun caught a glimpse of white flesh peeking out from the seam between the Sith's armored gloves and the strange shells on his forearm. The gap was narrow, but it was large enough for a well-aimed blade to penetrate.

He slashed at his new target. Amplified by Worror's power, the Force flowed through him and guided his blade home. The contact wasn't perfect; his lightsaber glanced off the edge of the armored shells so that he only made shallow contact with the skin beneath. Instead of severing the hand, he merely sliced deep enough to sever nerves and tendons.

Bane bellowed in rage as his weapon slipped from his grasp, the wound leaving his fingers limp and powerless. But before Johun or any of the others had a chance to finish off their unarmed opponent, they were blown backward by an explosion of dark side energy, their enemy's power fueled by the sharp, sudden pain of his wound.

Lying on the ground ten meters away, Johun watched in helpless horror as the Dark Lord's lightsaber leapt from the floor and flew back into his hand. Amazingly, his fingers wrapped themselves around the hilt and reignited the crimson blade, his injuries somehow healing almost instantly.

Yeah. So with the "assistance," to say the very, very least of it, Johun just barely manages to nick Bane's wrist, which just pisses him off and results in the trio being blown back thirty feet.

Not much of an accomplishment.

Actually, while both feats are impressive, Sidious's is much moreso. The Emperor's body was already weakening due to the "paradox of the dark side" that "the more successful the dark sider, the more quickly that dark sider's body decays" (the Essential Guide to the Force) not to mention the betrayal of former Guardsman Carnor Jax that tainted the genetic tissue within the Emperor's clone body; the dark side elite and his personal physician both instructed the Emperor who was "barely able to walk in his festering body" (the New Essential Chronology) that each subsequent use of the Force would only serve to bring him much closer to death. And he still pwned two seasoned combatants and overcame Leia with ease. Was Worror in such a position?

OMG! I'm not reading all of that!

Ok.........are we suppose to care?

yes... because... you are gender confused and you care about me?

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
yes... because... you are gender confused and you care about me?

Try again,

But this is what Gideon is talking about. There wasn't even a full page worth of new posts and you don't want to read it. Then you are going to post an opinion that very could have been covered by one of the debaters above.

Originally posted by Faunus
Being violently cut off from battle meditation weakens an individual considerably, as we see with Johun:

Instead, the powerful push struck Worror, throwing him into the corner as the lightsaber strike that would have cut him in two swished harmlessly through the air.

Johun felt his strength and energy plummet, A wave of exhaustion and fatigue overwhelmed him, the beneficial effects of the battle meditation vanishing as Worror's concentration was broken.
A problem is Johun is a practically untrained waste of space who does nothing but **** up the battle. Zannah was in trouble facing that one Jedi as it was, and she might have died if Johun hadn't gotten in the way

Tinn, as seen from the esteem Mace holds him in, especially in the early Republic comics when Mace uses him as a sparring partner, is pretty clearly something, however

A massive problem is a being of Bane's speed and strength is able to know exactly where they're going to strike and knowing their forms already, holds them at rather a disadvantage. Bane can fight without any means of self preservation save one area.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Try again,

But this is what Gideon is talking about. There wasn't even a full page worth of new posts and you don't want to read it. Then you are going to post an opinion that very could have been covered by one of the debaters above.
actually, i haven't been following this thread at all.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
actually, i haven't been following this thread at all.

Or have you.......


bwt what comic is your sig. from

star wars the derovian version.

Originally posted by Faunus
Being violently cut off from battle meditation weakens an individual considerably, as we see with Johun:

Instead, the powerful push struck Worror, throwing him into the corner as the lightsaber strike that would have cut him in two swished harmlessly through the air.

Johun felt his strength and energy plummet, A wave of exhaustion and fatigue overwhelmed him, the beneficial effects of the battle meditation vanishing as Worror's concentration was broken.

Refer to what Lightsnake said; Johun, being a pathetic sack of crap was incapable of basically anything without Worror's BM; even later on, when he was augmented by the power of Worror's BM and had a perfect shot at it, he couldn't sever Bane's wrist; in other words, without the assistance of the Battle Meditation, he's a worthless piece of junk. This quote just backs it up.

Originally posted by Faunus
Not that any of this actually detracts from Bane...
There's nothing putting Saesee Tinn above Farfalla: Obi-Wan believed all four Jedi to be some of the greatest swordsmen the Order had ever produced, while the narrator gives that praise only to Mace and Agen. Fisto's pretty lethal in his own right, but other than being an amazing pilot there's very little reason to put Tinn above Farfalla. I agree with the rest, though.

Let me rephrase that; BMed Farfalla = Tiin/Fisto < Kolar < BMed Raskta < Mace. As you see- as you apparently agree with my post (and once again, see what Lightsnake said), a team of two Farfalla's, one opponent greater than Farfalla, and one opponent greater than RASKTA is a more formidable team than the team Bane faced, and nevertheless, Sidious uberpwned this team using his saber skills EXCLUSIVELY. Bane, meanwhile, showed his dominance over the team that attacked him only through his brutal force techniques; his lightsaber skills showed NO superiority over the skills of Farfalla and Raskta. Raskta, BMed, alone, was a definite match for Bane, and she is DEFINETLY Windu's inferior. One might argue that Windu defeated Sidious, but then again- according to Windu himself, his Vaapad could not defeat Sidious, it was only his shatterpoint that allowed him to gain the upper hand and the broken window- Bane has no such advantages against Sidious, and it's pretty clear that Sidious is at the very least Windu's equal in terms of pure lightsaber skills (by that, I mean lightsaber skills without including shatterpoints and such, tactical knowledges... for example, Anakin > Obi-Wan in terms of pure lightsaber skills, but Obi-Wan is the overall better fighter due to his tactical mastery and cool head).

Originally posted by Faunus
Which in no way implies that his speed is greater, only that he relies on it more than Bane does.

I'm calling on you to use your logic, now, which will force you to shatter the illusion that Bane is Sidious' superior in lightsaber combat; unless Bane is Sidious' vast superior in lightsaber combat, then obivious Sidious' SPECIALITY will be better than something that Bane does not rely on as much; this is NOT 'third-rate' logic. For instance, a Vaapad user will be faster than a Djem So user of equal skill, but the Djem So user will be stronger; and seeing as Bane displayed no sort of superiority over Sidious, I doubt that his speed- which is not even his speciality- is greater than Sidious'. Of course, Bane is physically stronger than Sidious, because that is his SPECIALITY. See what I mean?
Originally posted by Faunus
It's pretty clear that you've never read RoT, or even bothered to Wiki it to any real effect:

He spun back to the fight to see that the Echani Weapons Master had taken the offensive, sending quick flicks of her blue blades toward Bane's unprotected face-the only spot on his body seemingly not covered by the impenetrable shells. Remarkably, Bane was giving ground.

"Stay back!" she shouted at Farfalla. "You'll just get in the way."

Farfalla did as he was told, gathering the energies of the light side to throw up another protective Force barrier should Bane try to unleash his dark side powers against the Echani.

She seemed to be everywhere at once-in front of Bane, beside him, behind him, circling low, leaping to come in high, deflecting his blade with one of her own then stabbing three quick times in succession at his eyes. The big man's head ducked and bobbed, twisting and turning to avoid her blows as he tried to mount a counteroffensive.

Raskta's mastery of her blades was unparalleled, but even with her talents augmented by Worror's battle meditation she wasn't able to land a telling blow on such a small target through Bane's defenses. Still, the ferocity of her new strategy had turned the momentum in her favor ... or so Farfalla thought.

Bane continued his retreat, circling away from Raskta's blades, then suddenly turned and ran straight toward the unarmed Ithorian standing just inside the door of the room.

He was never in danger of being killed by her. And you're conveniently, and unsurprisingly, ignoring this:

"Go for the face!" Farfalla shouted, arriving on the scene and throwing himself into the battle as Johun did the same.

Together the three of them held the Sith Lord at bay: Farfalla on the left flank, Johun on the right, and Raskta in the center. Between blocks and parries they cut and stabbed at his face, their combined efforts finally forcing their enemy into a defensive stance.

The young Jedi marveled at the speed and savagery of Raskta's blades. And while Johun's own clumsy efforts had actually seemed to impede Sarro when they fought side by side, Raskta appeared to thrive off his presence. When he went high, she went low. If he came from the left, she came from the right. It was partly a function of her choice of weapon: individually each of her lightsabers was more precise and accurate than Sarro's giant double blades. But it was more than that. Her reactions were so fast, her combat instincts so pure, that she was able to sense and anticipate what he was going to do even as it happened, then use his attacks to her own advantage.

On her opposite side Farfalla struck with clean, elegant blows, his form perfect as he harried Bane's right flank. Yet though they were able to hold their ground, they couldn't drive him back or defeat him.

They were at an impasse, none of their attacks able to connect with the one vulnerable part of Bane's anatomy.

In the climax of the battle, all three of them attack him at once, all aiming right at his face, and only managed to keep him from running them over. Contrary to your implication, Raskta's "unparalleled" skill is shown to be completely incapable of forcing him back on her own, as she manages to actually use Johun's tactics to her advantage, while Farfalla goes at Bane from the right with "perfect" form, and they still can't even get him to start giving ground.

And you are actually entirely ignoring YOUR OWN freakin' quotes; they put him on a defensive stance, which also logically means they were FORCING HIM BACK; Raskta, alone, according to your VERY quotes was capable of forcing him back on HER OWN and prevent him from launching a counterattack; while he is definetly her superior, her newfound strategy and tactics actually gave her momentum and caused Bane to be in SERIOUS difficulty; of course she wasn't able to land a blow on him, but she most definetly had the upper hand on him and forced him to finally eliminate the Jedi's source of power; namely, Worror. If your quotes did anything at all, they actually supported my argument; Bane never, until the end of the BM, display superiority to them in terms of lightsaber skills, other than displaying his superiority over Farfalla at a certain point. Also, let me remind you that Raskta was only killed by a sneak attack and not through anyone actually out-duelling her; if she went on her own against Zannah, Bane would have to start searching for a new apprentice.

Originally posted by Faunus
This makes no sense whatsoever, but okay...

Right. Bane's force push would've grounded Raskta, while the same force push had the effect of killing on someone else; I see no reason why he wouldn't use a powerful force push on Raskta. Do you?

Originally posted by Faunus
No, it clearly said that she would have been picked up and "plastered" against the wall, crushing her to death. The wave Bane unleashed on the mercenary camp destroyed everything it touched, and shattered the woman's back upon impact: it didn't knock her to the ground, causing her injury, it smacked into her and killed her.

Raskta had SOME degree of force ability to defend; of course, she pretty much sucked at it, but she must have had the capacity to at least make the push do less significant damage on her; anyway, it's sheer momentum could crush her against the wall and kill her.

Originally posted by Faunus
Apparently I need to spell everything out to you, to an even further degree than I thought I already had.
"Slightly above average"? So an "exceptional" combatant and a Jedi Master who fought on the front lines of the most overwhelmingly massive Jedi v. Sith conflict in galactic history is "slightly above average"?

And as I've stated multiple times, being a Jedi Master has more to do with knowledge and wisdom than actual power; of course, it is certainly an indicator of power at some degree, but the Jedi do not base their titles on power. For example, Worror, who was certainly powerful and a frontline warrior would get crushed in single-combat due to his lack of actual combat skills. I ask you; what did Farfalla do that made him exceptional? Other than that quote, which already made me admit to him being powerful, what actually backs him up being 'uber'? Okay, you know what, I'll say that he's powerful- but nevertheless, you yourself agreed with me that Fisto and Tiin, the weakest of the team Mace used, were Farfalla's superiors. And the fact still exists that Sidious owned them and an even stronger person while simultaneously forcing back Raskta's superior.

Originally posted by Faunus
You're absolutely ridiculous.

Another of the intelligent insults. I suppose I'm the one whose ridiculous, when I'm simply trying to debate with you about a certain topic and trying to prove my points.

Originally posted by Faunus
Uh-huh. Then the fact that Sidious' lightning killed three acolytes who "almost definitely" weren't putting up a defense isn't impressive, either.

The more impressive part of the feat is the the extent of the damage Sidious did on them, and tore through three people who were very possibly putting up a defense, were called powerful, and probably relied more on force usage than anything else. It's more impressive than tearing through the defenses of a single Jedi. And now then, to another point; how come Raskta, who lacked powerful force defenses, dispelled Bane's lightning with no indication of effort while Mace Windu, someone who displayed impressive force feats and had the power of Vaapad at his disposal could barely block Sidious' lightning when Sidious was in an inferior position? And by Mace's own admission, Sidious' lightning was owning him. Unless you want to say that Bane's lightning wasn't at full power in this stage- which is absolutely moronic, seeing as he used it to try and kill a Jedi who was very conscious and had his force defenses up- you'll see that Sidious' lightning had a far more profound effect on the people who attempted to block it.


Originally posted by Faunus
Of course. Because if Sidious does it, it's cool and impressive.

Refer to what Gideon said. And while Worror's feat is most definetly impressive, it's also that Bane's lightning was still deflected by someone of Worror's caliber- meanwhile, Sidious has actual feats backing up his uber power and while he was severely injured and near-dead, he killed and mortally wounded, capable Jedi with one blast.

Originally posted by Faunus
READ the following, or DON'T RESPOND.

1) Bane thought that Worror was dead. Since he'd already killed Farfalla and Zannah had dealt with Serro and Raskta, that would mean he believed Johun to be the only Jedi left.

Fair enough.

2Originally posted by Faunus
) Johun was lying on the ground whimpering in pain (He screamed and dropped to his knees, clutching his cauterized stump...) with Zannah standing mere feet from him. In Bane's mind, the battle was over. Therefore, there would have been no need for him to exert himself any more than was necessary.

Please, we both know Sith; Johun, a pathetic Jedi- and seeing as Zannah saw it, I'm pretty sure that Bane, a more seasoned and capable of combatant would see it too- came the closest to damaging Bane by dealing a deep cut into Bane's wrist. I think Bane would want to inflict his full punishment on someone like that. And WHY take any risks? People already showed surprising things during the course of the fight, so why not go to the fullest extent to be 100% sure of Johun's death?

Originally posted by Faunus
3) Bane's lightning - if we were to wrongfully assume that it was being used at full power in any instances - was capable of reducing multiple living beings to ash, charring two enemies to smoking husks in a "few" seconds, and easily ripping through the defenses of a BM'd Jedi Master. Do you really think Johun needs to be disintegrated to be killed? Or that his Force defenses, which weren't even up at the time, would even begin to compare to those of Farfalla?

Who knows? Ironically, the weakest Jedi of the group came the closest to severely injuring Bane; while Bane would know that Johun is a pathetic piece of crap, he would be injured and would want to be absolutely assured of Johun's death. Note the high damage the lightning had on Bane himself.

Originally posted by Faunus
4) Against an enemy described as clumsy and weak who had no chance of escape and was mistakenly believed to be alone, Bane would have no need to use a full-powered lightning blast, or even anything remotely close.

But WHY not go to the fullest extent and be ABSOLUTELY sure of the death of your opponent- who managed to inflict a great amount of pain on you? While Bane's lightning could have possibly not been at its maximum power, it would most definetly have been at the very least close to its maximum power.

Originally posted by Faunus
Then Johun caught a glimpse of white flesh peeking out from the seam between the Sith's armored gloves and the strange shells on his forearm. The gap was narrow, but it was large enough for a well-aimed blade to penetrate.

He slashed at his new target. Amplified by Worror's power, the Force flowed through him and guided his blade home. The contact wasn't perfect; his lightsaber glanced off the edge of the armored shells so that he only made shallow contact with the skin beneath. Instead of severing the hand, he merely sliced deep enough to sever nerves and tendons.

Bane bellowed in rage as his weapon slipped from his grasp, the wound leaving his fingers limp and powerless. But before Johun or any of the others had a chance to finish off their unarmed opponent, they were blown backward by an explosion of dark side energy, their enemy's power fueled by the sharp, sudden pain of his wound.

Lying on the ground ten meters away, Johun watched in helpless horror as the Dark Lord's lightsaber leapt from the floor and flew back into his hand. Amazingly, his fingers wrapped themselves around the hilt and reignited the crimson blade, his injuries somehow healing almost instantly.

Yeah. So with the "assistance," to say the very, very least of it, Johun just barely manages to nick Bane's wrist, which just pisses him off and results in the trio being blown back thirty feet.

Not much of an accomplishment.

Nick Bane's wrist? I suppose deep cut isn't very clear? It's kind of ironic that the weakest opponent was the one who injured Bane the most. Bane would definetly be very pissed at him.

Anyways, before we move on; you've never actually stated if you think Sidious would defeat or lose to Bane. Could you please clarify your opinion on that?

How about surviving on the front lines on the Ruusan battle. The book even says that ,'he had fought in nearly every confrontation'
Also his form was described as 'perfect'.



Sidious cuaght two of those jedi by surprise, so it could hardly be said that he 'owned' them in a duel. Heck, he chucked his saber at one of them, which is hardly a display of 'Mad skillz'.
And plus Banes opponants were BM'ed, which drastically boosts their abilities.



For a start, Raskta wasn't standing two feat from Bane, and for a second she deosn't block Banes lightning like windu did, she instead ,'carved figure eights in the air to catch and absorb the bolts of dark side energy'. The difference between 'direct' and 'indirect'.



WHY did palpatine take the risk in RotJ?



Note the higher damage the lightning could have done. As in Disintergrating him.



No this quote backs up the point that he only feels tired after he loses the BM, indicating that it impowered him fully.


Sorry Sidi, couldn't resist.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
How about surviving on the front lines on the Ruusan battle. The book even says that ,'he had fought in nearly every confrontation'
Also his form was described as 'perfect'.

The 'perfect' part means that his form looked elegant and used perfect, NOT clumsy attacks unlike Johun; indeed, this part actually implies Farfalla to be a Makashi practician. Which seems plausible, knowing his personality and all.

Also, btw, what enemies exactly were there in the Sith War that were really anything other than bantha fooder that would be tooled by any PT fighter? Other than Bane and Kas'im?



Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Sidious cuaght two of those jedi by surprise, so it could hardly be said that he 'owned' them in a duel. Heck, he chucked his saber at one of them, which is hardly a display of 'Mad skillz'.
And plus Banes opponants were BM'ed, which drastically boosts their abilities.

I 'lol' at this. First of all, he never chucked his saber at ANYONE- you're making stuff up- and, they all had their lightsabers drawn and were informed by Anakin that Sidious was the Sith Lord. The big master. The guy who should be stronger than even Dooku, and therefore, they were VERY ready for a fight; Fisto was described as quite tense in the shuttle ride towards Sidious' office. Also, he drew his lightsaber and tossed a line ("It's treason, then." before hurling himself at them; they were VERY prepared and ready for a battle and could actually see Sidious drawing his lightsaber.

BM does enhance one's skills, but as we see Johun being still 'clumsy' and all, it enhances ONLY physical attributes and reflexes and will not cause one's technical skill to increase. Unless you think BM Raskta = Mace... yeah. W/e.

I'll elaborate; throughout the entire duel, Mace was being forced and back. I've yet to see Bane replicate a feat like coming very close to defeating a good candiate (along with Yoda, Sidious himself, Bane, and a few others) for the 'greatest duelist in history' (at least up until that point). The best duelist Bane ever fought- who is probably no where near as strong as Mace- actually owned the shit out of Bane.



Originally posted by Darth Exodus
For a start, Raskta wasn't standing two feat from Bane, and for a second she deosn't block Banes lightning like windu did, she instead ,'carved figure eights in the air to catch and absorb the bolts of dark side energy'. The difference between 'direct' and 'indirect'.

So? Mace 'catched' the lightnign with his blade; Windu, incidentally, being a FAR superior physical opponent than Raskta and was capable of owning battle droids and seismic tanks with his BARE HANDS, had an EXTREMELY difficult time catching Sidious' lightning; hell, the novel almost explicitly states that if the attack went on, Windu would be screwed. He even admits to being too weak to kill Sidious; and it so happens that there is a good amount of reason to say that Sidious did not go all-out in the force lightning assault, and he definetly feigned his weakness; yeah. Even with his Vaapad and "I can own Kar Vastor" hands, he was being overpowered by Sidious. And all while Sidious was in an inferior position.

Meanwhile, Raskta, Mace's definite inferior, catched and deflected Mace's DEFINETLY full-powered lightning with no apparent difficulty. Do you see the difference?



Originally posted by Darth Exodus
WHY did palpatine take the risk in RotJ?

Cuz he's a typical arrogant Sith. Bane never displayed any sort of arrogance in his fights, did he? Sidious, meanwhile, had his arrogance as his own downfall.



Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Note the higher damage the lightning could have done. As in Disintergrating him.

Great. Don't you think Bane MIGHT have had the ability to somewhat block his own friggin' lightning? If he could not even do that... well, you see what I mean. ESPECIALLY if his lightning wasn't at full power.



Originally posted by Darth Exodus
No this quote backs up the point that he only feels tired after he loses the BM, indicating that it impowered him fully.

Huh? Err... yeah, the BM was the only thing that kept Johun from being milkshaked in two seconds. So what?


Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Sorry Sidi, couldn't resist.

Shame.

Stupid typo. I meant 'Bane's lightning', not Mace's.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Right. Bane's force push would've grounded Raskta, while the same force push had the effect of killing on someone else; I see no reason why he wouldn't use a powerful force push on Raskta. Do you?A "powerful" attack doesn't mean it required his full effort, or even a significant portion of it. Bane's "full-power" Force-push as of PoD caused a sizable temple to implode.
Well, somebody can't read.
But I guess that should come as no surprise, huh?
Except you're not proving anything. You simply refuse to acknowledge the points that I make, as evidenced in full below, while failing miserably in your rebuttal attempts.
And Sidious was "very possibly" a homosexual pedophile. Therefore, I can use it an argument.

You can't prove me wrong, so I'm right. Haha.
Well, oh my god! That puts them right up there with fetus Anakin Solo!
Says you. As a display of power in comparison to another prominent Force-user it most certainly isn't, as you can't even prove that the trio were putting up any sort of defense, while I've shown that Farfalla most definitely did.

That also means that Sidious' feat of disintegration is no more impressive than that of Bane's especially considering the circumstances that applied to each at the time of their respective displays. Palpatine popped out on the trio, who were absolutely mortified of him, talked to them a bit, and fried them. Bane was controlling a drexl's mind while fending off three others "beasts" and their riders when he used one hand to turn his targets to ash, and char the enemy drexl to the point that it was little more than a smoking, burnt husk. That being another of the PoD-era power displays (it takes place in a section of the book that occurs within the weeks following PoD's conclusion).
She possessed marginal ability in applications of the Force that didn't pertain to physical combat. Considering she alone was responsible for the slaughter of more Sith than the thought bomb itself, one would think Raskta had faced more than her fair share of Dark side Force-users.
"Lying on his back" =/= inferior position in a Force contest. If you can actually prove otherwise, go for it, considering the most powerful Force-wave in the saga was performed by a guy lying face-down on the ground.

And Raskta, unlike Mace, didn't just stop Bane's lightning through brute strength. She wove her two lightsabers in a figure-eight pattern to divert and disperse the bolts.
Uh, yeah. If you say so.

Mace noted that Palpatine's lightning was "beyond Vaapad." A far cry from what you would like, and apparently you've been having trouble distinguishing between fact and fandom throughout this entire debate.
Ah. You telling me what looks moronic. I can taste the irony.
Uh-huh. So while Bane's lightning completely tears through the Force-defenses of a powerful Jedi Master, Sidious' two-handed blast - while directed at a considerably more powerful target than Farfalla - can't even overpower the enemy when Sidious himself is located comfortably in the middle of the senate pod, and Yoda is grabbing onto the edge with his feet. The attack even ends up being forced back between the two and exploding.
Good job repeating the exact same thing three times in a row. See, unlike you, I don't need to see something half a dozen times before I read it. Cuz if you'd been following, I've answered this already. A lot of f*cking times. This will be the last.

Bane's lightning, over a decade prior to RoT, was capable of reducing three defenseless enemies to ash. Three. To ash.

Johun was one defenseless enemy. Bane - who, again, ten years ago had displayed the ability to disintegrate his opponents - saw that. He believed Worror was dead and the battle was won. He would not need to turn someone to ash just to make them die.

To put it in real-world terms: that's like cutting someone's head off, then deciding that you may as well take a sledgehammer to it. Just to be safe.

In my terms - and like the rest of your "argument" - its absolutely idiotic.
And Bane always overexerts and exhausts himself when he's pissed. Please. Don't lecture me about a character who's defining literature you've never even read. At least Wiki the damn books before debating against me about them.
Orbalisks. Are. Weak. To. Electricity.

When. They. Die. They. Release. Deadly. Toxins.

Bane's. Lightning. Killed. The. Orbalisks.

This. Caused. The. Toxins. To. Be. Released.

The. Toxins. Crippled. Bane. Because. He. Was. Caught. By. Surprise. And. Struck. With. His. Own. Lightning. Simultaneously.
...

Half the bones in his body were broken by Sirak, he was growing organisms on his chest that ate into his flesh and bone, he'd crashed a ship and dislocated his shoulder - which he promptly popped back in - and he fell over a kilometer to the ground with three drexls and five other people on top of him, with enough force to create a two-meter-deep, twenty / thirty-meter-wide crater in the ground.

Pain isn't really much of an issue when it comes to Bane.
Bane, unless Sidious could managed to outmaneuver him and hit him with a gout of lightning. Which should be his strategy against every other powerful opponent in the saga...

Really, Bane isn't any more vulnerable to the effects of lightning than any other Jedi would be. A sustained blast from Sidious in a combat situation, were it to connect, would quickly kill anybody. Bane would just go down harder thanks to the poisons.

And don't expect another post from me on the subject. You've honestly bored me to the point that I no longer want to debate with you, which, considering the people I've gone up against, is quite a feat. You simply ignore everything I put down, refuse to catch the inferences made by the plethora of quotes and passages I provided (such as the effect of BM), and are simply too blinded by your own ignorance and laziness to be thought-provoking in any way, shape, or form.

So yeah. You can reply if you like - I'm expecting some sort of analytical, similarly condescending post - but I'm not continuing this any further. I'm done here.

Not very farfetched, Faunus. Sidious is capable of casually disarming Yoda -- who can use the Force to augment his physical strength to where he can lift a gun the size of a house on his back (according to Nai) -- he can certainly disarm Bane with similar effort. And even if Bane's defenses were sufficient enough to repulse the lightning (they aren't), he can't deal with Sidious's lightning and the toxins of the orbalisks.

The Dark Side Sourcebook already says that Sidious was the most powerful of Bane's Order (which includes Bane).

Originally posted by Gideon
Not very farfetched, Faunus. Sidious is capable of casually disarming Yoda --When Yoda's in the crappiest position imaginable and the lightning hits his hand, sure.

Although "casually" is probably a fairly awful way of describing anything about that fight.
You're comparing the "augmented" physical strength of Yoda to that of Bane? Not good.
So RotS Sidious is just going to stroll in, "casually" blow away Bane's lightsaber, and proceed to fry him to death. Wonder why he didn't do that to Mace Windu, who's shown nothing even remotely close to Bane in Force power.

1) Quote that.
2) When you do, please note that not once is there a mention of power. Conjecture =/= Fact.

And again, I'm not saying that Sidious doesn't have a chance - he just doesn't have a good one, especially in a lightsaber duel.

Originally posted by Faunus
A "powerful" attack doesn't mean it required his full effort, or even a significant portion of it. Bane's "full-power" Force-push as of PoD caused a sizable temple to implode.
Well, somebody can't read.
But I guess that should come as no surprise, huh?
Except you're not proving anything. You simply refuse to acknowledge the points that I make, as evidenced in full below, while failing miserably in your rebuttal attempts.

Err... no, Faunus, I am not 'failing miserably' in my rebuttal attempts, despite what you may tell yourself. You, my friend, are not proving anything, either, despite what you may think about yourself. Simply believing that "Worror's technique was more uber cuz I said so lol' isn't enough.

I suppose ending every one of your points with a witty, intelligent insult makes you feel big and powerful, right? Insulting the nasty Sidi-Boy who simply tried to- *gasp*- actually say that Sidious could beat any of the triumvirate in combat! OMG! He must be punished!

Originally posted by Faunus
And Sidious was "very possibly" a homosexual pedophile. Therefore, I can use it an argument.

Right. Whatever you say.

Originally posted by Faunus
You can't prove me wrong, so I'm right. Haha.
Well, oh my god! That puts them right up there with fetus Anakin Solo!
Says you. As a display of power in comparison to another prominent Force-user it most certainly isn't, as you can't even prove that the trio were putting up any sort of defense, while I've shown that Farfalla most definitely did.

And did I ONCE deny the fact that Farfalla put up a force barrier? And give me a single reason why these Acolytes- who knew that they summoned something to assassinate the much-treasured aprpentice of Sidious- wouldn't at least attempt to possibly try to block anything that may come out of Sidious' direction. Yeah, right, of course they weren't putting up a defense. But when Traya tries to drain her enemies- of course they were putting up a defense!

Nice job.

Originally posted by Faunus
That also means that Sidious' feat of disintegration is no more impressive than that of Bane's especially considering the circumstances that applied to each at the time of their respective displays. Palpatine popped out on the trio, who were absolutely mortified of him, talked to them a bit, and fried them. Bane was controlling a drexl's mind while fending off three others "beasts" and their riders when he used one hand to turn his targets to ash, and char the enemy drexl to the point that it was little more than a smoking, burnt husk. That being another of the PoD-era power displays (it takes place in a section of the book that occurs within the weeks following PoD's conclusion).

Great. Now, mainly because I have absolutely no further wish to have you say "You're ignoring my points!!!111!!!", I will say that Bane's feat wasn't less impressive than Sidious'. Happy?
Originally posted by Faunus
She possessed marginal ability in applications of the Force that didn't pertain to physical combat. Considering she alone was responsible for the slaughter of more Sith than the thought bomb itself, one would think Raskta had faced more than her fair share of Dark side Force-users.

Right then, I suppose rumored just isn't true, right? Because it was rumored, then the feat is not necessarily true and possibly an exaggerration similar to Sidious' "Vader owned 50 Jedi" rumor.

I said that force defenses weren't a speciality. But she cerainly had them, at least on a meager level.
Originally posted by Faunus
"Lying on his back" =/= inferior position in a Force contest. If you can actually prove otherwise, go for it, considering the most powerful Force-wave in the saga was performed by a guy lying face-down on the ground.

Do I really need to prove to you why lightning from Sidious, lying on his, could basically own a Jedi who was standing right above him and had excess to both UBER physical conditioning and a combat style that could, in theory, reflect a darksider's abilities back at him, happens to be an inferior position for Sidious? As you seem to be intelligent, don't think so.

Originally posted by Faunus
And Raskta, unlike Mace, didn't just stop Bane's lightning through brute strength. She wove her two lightsabers in a figure-eight pattern to divert and disperse the bolts.

And what the hell do 'two lightsabers' actually matter? How come Raskta, who had extremely little force defenses, disperse "Teh uber Bane"'s lightning, while Mace, an opponent who is her definite superior and had access to a tehnique that could reflect his opponent's attack back at him, could not do the same for Sidious? Yeah. Seems likely.

Originally posted by Faunus
Mace noted that Palpatine's lightning was "beyond Vaapad." A far cry from what you would like, and apparently you've been having trouble distinguishing between fact and fandom throughout this entire debate.

Err... yeah, whatever you say. You're fabricating facts; the fact that Mace 'had no strength left' and 'was choking on ozone' isn't very clear to you? MACE WAS BEING OVERPOWERED. FACE IT.

Originally posted by Faunus
Ah. You telling me what looks moronic. I can taste the irony.

Yeah. I bow before you, my Lord Faunus, the great epitome of perfection and intelligent. How dare I, a mere newbie to this forum and a biased, unintelligent sack of crap dare to question your authority? Forgive insolent me.

Originally posted by Faunus
Uh-huh. So while Bane's lightning completely tears through the Force-defenses of a powerful Jedi Master, Sidious' two-handed blast - while directed at a considerably more powerful target than Farfalla - can't even overpower the enemy when Sidious himself is located comfortably in the middle of the senate pod, and Yoda is grabbing onto the edge with his feet. The attack even ends up being forced back between the two and exploding.

So? The fact of the matter is that Yoda was perfectly balanced on the ledge- and Sidious' lightning had the capacity to friggin' disarm friggin' Yoda with its sheer power; the fact is, Farfalla isn't even close to Yoda's league, and this just supports that fact.

Originally posted by Faunus
Good job repeating the exact same thing three times in a row. See, unlike you, I don't need to see something half a dozen times before I read it. Cuz if you'd been following, I've answered this already. A lot of f*cking times. This will be the last.

Bane's lightning, over a decade prior to RoT, was capable of reducing three defenseless enemies to ash. Three. To ash.

Johun was one defenseless enemy. Bane - who, again, ten years ago had displayed the ability to disintegrate his opponents - saw that. He believed Worror was dead and the battle was won. He would not need to turn someone to ash just to make them die.

To put it in real-world terms: that's like cutting someone's head off, then deciding that you may as well take a sledgehammer to it. Just to be safe.

Because of the nature of this argument, I think we should really face the truth- neither of us will concede. I will therefore drop the whole Worror point, since it's simply a source for bashing and anger.

Originally posted by Faunus
In my terms - and like the rest of your "argument" - its absolutely idiotic.

Once again, I bow before you. Your argument is far more intelligent than mine, when you've proved absolutely NOTHING- you did not bother to explain why Sidious could own three Jedi Masters who were like an almost-Raskta and two more powerful Farfallas while simultaneously forcing back Raskta's superior, nor did you actually do anything to counter WHY THE HELL is Raskta's defensive technique somehow superior to Mace's... yeah. In other words, you cannot counter my point and therefore resort to bashing me.

Originally posted by Faunus
And Bane always overexerts and exhausts himself when he's pissed. Please. Don't lecture me about a character who's defining literature you've never even read. At least Wiki the damn books before debating against me about them.

And why is the me part so hugely emphasized every godamn time? You obivious have a wrong opinion of yourself, Faunus.

Originally posted by Faunus
Orbalisks. Are. Weak. To. Electricity.

When. They. Die. They. Release. Deadly. Toxins.

Bane's. Lightning. Killed. The. Orbalisks.

This. Caused. The. Toxins. To. Be. Released.

The. Toxins. Crippled. Bane. Because. He. Was. Caught. By. Surprise. And. Struck. With. His. Own. Lightning. Simultaneously.

Err... okay, then, how do you explain the EXTREMELY large degree of damage inflicted upon the orbalisks? Unless they explode when the slightest amount of electricity hits them?

The fact is, I now see the fact that Bane's lightning was probablt not at its full potency, but it was still probably highly close to it.
...

Originally posted by Faunus
Half the bones in his body were broken by Sirak, he was growing organisms on his chest that ate into his flesh and bone, he'd crashed a ship and dislocated his shoulder - which he promptly popped back in - and he fell over a kilometer to the ground with three drexls and five other people on top of him, with enough force to create a two-meter-deep, twenty / thirty-meter-wide crater in the ground.

Pain isn't really much of an issue when it comes to Bane.

And is it really an issue for Sidious, who used the pain from his own lightning assault- according to the novelization- to empower his own attack? He obivious used pain as a method to increase his power and rage.

Not saying that Bane can't do the same; just that it's common among powerful dark siders.

Originally posted by Faunus
Bane, unless Sidious could managed to outmaneuver him and hit him with a gout of lightning. Which should be his strategy against every other powerful opponent in the saga...

Eh? Sidious is a hugely underestimated duelist and one of TEH best duelists in the history of Star Wars. Not the best, perhaps, but definetly among the top dudes. Also, I agree that Sidious won't be capable of defeating Bane in a simple, pure lightsaber fight due to the advantage of the orbalisks (as you yourself said, Sidious' dueling skills are a notch above Bane's), but Bane won't be capable of defeating Sidious, either; I see the fight as a close-ranged match, in which Sidious will create openings via telekinesis or his saber, and subsequently take the opening to blast Bane with force lightning.

Of course, contrary to what you might believe, I do not believe that Sidious will definetly take a match with Bane; just that he's more masterful and probably smarter, and could take a fight 6/10 of the times. Not the 10/10 you apparently you think I believe.

Originally posted by Faunus
Really, Bane isn't any more vulnerable to the effects of lightning than any other Jedi would be. A sustained blast from Sidious in a combat situation, were it to connect, would quickly kill anybody. Bane would just go down harder thanks to the poisons.

Accurate. Therefore, he has less defense and will be even more vulnerable to the effects of Sidious' lethal force lightning.

Originally posted by Faunus
And don't expect another post from me on the subject. You've honestly bored me to the point that I no longer want to debate with you, which, considering the people I've gone up against, is quite a feat. You simply ignore everything I put down, refuse to catch the inferences made by the plethora of quotes and passages I provided (such as the effect of BM), and are simply too blinded by your own ignorance and laziness to be thought-provoking in any way, shape, or form.

Err... yeah, sure, whatever you say. Lazy? I don't exactly think I'm 'lazy' as much as you like to put it. At least give me respect for 'boring' you into submission

Seriously, though, you seem to be blinded due to an apparent belief in Bane's superiority in comparison with Sidious' while canon and facts seem to point the other way around- your ignorance and your best strategy being ending each one of your posts with some sort of vicious, intelligent insult, while you have actually no proved anything. Just because I don't own the massive plethora of quotes you have access to, it doesn't automatically make me the less skilled debator.

Claiming below another 'condenscending' post from myself is extremely pathetic seeing as you have the absolute dominance in terms of arrogance, bashing. The difference between you and I is that I don't friggin' bash you for refusing to accept my points, and while I, in fact, during this stupid debate actually conceded several times, said "you may be correct", "I may be wrong", and the likes, you simply continued on with your belief in your own absolute superiority and your absolute refusal to even say "Hmm... this guy may be right!". If anything, I should be the one being bored by you, due to your extreme stubborness and your refusal to even question if my arguments are possibly correct.

Originally posted by Faunus
So yeah. You can reply if you like - I'm expecting some sort of analytical, similarly condescending post - but I'm not continuing this any further. I'm done here.

I do not ask you to reply to this post, but merely the fact that please remember that this is just a hypothetical debate, and your emotions seem to run a bit too high when we're simply debating upon the subject of which fictional character will win in a fight- I believe it's Sidious with a slightly better chance, you believe it's Bane. Whatever the fact may be, I suggest we do close down this dragged out and pointless debate, and hope that the insulting matches between us- and while I am guilty of insulting, you did start it- do not cause any animosity between us.