Darth malak vs count dooku

kiddo44

Originally posted by darthsith19

What?! I know that you are a Dooku fanboy, but what is you're reasoning behind this? Yoda easily blocks all of Dooku's Force attacks, yet he is only able to, at best, stalemate with Sidious in a Force contest. Kenobi is able to effortlessly block Dooku's lightning, but Sidious's lightning nearly tears Mace's lightsaber right out of his hands. ROTS Sidious is called the most powerful Sith ever. Honestly, Dooku's closer to Sidious with sabers than he is with the Force (but he's behind him with both).

I didn't say he was as powerful, but he is very close to both of them in force powers. It has nothing to do with being a fanboy its just the facts. If you have read the comics when he fights Tholme and Sora Bulq, very tired, and takes out both of them, and not by his sabers, fighting Asajj, and when he tosses Kenobi in ROTS like a clone trooper with the force, shows how powerful he is. The powers he has shown from the characters of the movies, rivals anybody.

Ivalice

Originally posted by kiddo44
I didn't say he was as powerful, but he is very close to both of them in force powers. It has nothing to do with being a fanboy its just the facts. If you have read the comics when he fights Tholme and Sora Bulq, very tired, and takes out both of them, and not by his sabers, fighting Asajj, and when he tosses Kenobi in ROTS like a clone trooper with the force, shows how powerful he is. The powers he has shown from the characters of the movies, rivals anybody. I believe he is roughly on the same level as OT vader in sheer power and mastery.

darthsith19

Originally posted by Gideon
And I'm certain that you have in your possession evidence to prove this theory, and you're about to post it, correct?
He ordered the Magnaguard to kill her in Obsession, saying that she had failed him too many times (or something similar). Sidious also told Dooku in DR that if he were Dooku, he would kill her. Asajj herself in DR hopes that Dooku isn't going to kill her. If you need quotes I can attempt to find some. But that's proof that Dooku wouldn't hesitate to kill her, and if she fought back against him and he was on the verge of killing her anyways, I see no reason why he wouldn't kill her then. Usually is someone is torturing you and you fight back it just gets worse anyways.

Gideon

Originally posted by darthsith19
He ordered the Magnaguard to kill her in Obsession, saying that she had failed him too many times (or something similar). Sidious also told Dooku in DR that if he were Dooku, he would kill her. Asajj herself in DR hopes that Dooku isn't going to kill her. If you need quotes I can attempt to find some. But that's proof that Dooku wouldn't hesitate to kill her, and if she fought back against him and he was on the verge of killing her anyways, I see no reason why he wouldn't kill her then. Usually is someone is torturing you and you fight back it just gets worse anyways.

So, essentially, you've proven that Count Dooku was willing to kill Ventress, which is a far cry from proving that she didn't try to resist his assault.

Lord Knightfa11

I am positive that what kiddo ment was that dooku is a small step down from yoda, but being able to actually fend against him long enough to escape shows considerable skill.

Gideon

Originally posted by kiddo44
I didn't say he was as powerful, but he is very close to both of them in force powers. It has nothing to do with being a fanboy its just the facts. If you have read the comics when he fights Tholme and Sora Bulq, very tired, and takes out both of them, and not by his sabers, fighting Asajj, and when he tosses Kenobi in ROTS like a clone trooper with the force, shows how powerful he is. The powers he has shown from the characters of the movies, rivals anybody.

Take the syringe out of your arm, calm down, and come back once you're talking sense.

Man of Christ

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
I am positive that what kiddo ment was that dooku is a small step down from yoda, but being able to actually fend against him long enough to escape shows considerable skill.

it shows his lack of skill compared to yoda because the duel was 30 seconds tops and he had to create a diversion to escape.

so in review kiddo64's point about dooku being on the same level is false because

1) dooku only gave yoda 30 seconds of dueling time whereas siddious gave yoda a good five minutes of duel time. BIG DIFFRENCE

2) since yoda trained dooku he pretty much knows how dooku fights so there is nothing dooku could do that yoda cant anticipate.

3) in terms of force siddious is LEAPS AND BOUNDS above dooku. heres my proof. siddious' force lightning knocked yoda out for a few seconds butyoda was able to throw dooku's FL back at him almost effotlessly.

so in a nutshel if yoda and siddious are a 10 then dooku his a high six MAYBE a low seven. which doesnt put him in their league

Allankles

If Yoda and Sidious are both 10's Dooku is easily an 8. Curbstomped Obi Wan with TK (which Obi Wan was fairly good at projecting and defending).

Had enough juice in the force department to prevent Yoda from punking him. If Dooku wasn't strong in the force Yoda could easily have used the force to overwhelm him.

Yoda was the greater master but he wasn't so much greater that he could crush Dooku with any kind of ease. Dooku held is own against Yoda on two ocassions, and punked Asajj Ventress, Anakin and Obi Wan. The guy was easily a level above someone like Malak who would more likely rank a high 6.

Lt. Valerian

Originally posted by Man of Christ
2) since yoda trained dooku he pretty much knows how dooku fights so there is nothing dooku could do that yoda cant anticipate.

Although I agree that Dooku is not in their league, this argument is not valid.

Why? Two reasons: After he completed his training under the green master, he became a Master himself, which means, you learn many more things as a Jedi. An example of this is AOTC Kenobi compared to ROTS Kenobi. By AOTC he is already a Master, but would you consider him on par with his ROTS counterpart? Of course not, he has become much more powerful through the process of learning and mastering of certain techniques and abilities he had not yet mastered by AOTC. This is certainly a very important factor regarding duels, and could very well affect the outcome.

If Qui-Gon had not died and continued to train him, I can still assure you ROTS Kenobi would defeat Qui-Gon (unless he progressed more as a master), even though he knew absolutely everything about him.

The other reason: becoming a Sith Lord. As a Sith Lord Dooku learned many more abilities and techniques Yoda obviously did not teach him.

Yoda simply defeated Dooku because he is the superior fighter.

Man of Christ

Originally posted by Allankles
If Yoda and Sidious are both 10's Dooku is easily an 8. Curbstomped Obi Wan with TK (which Obi Wan was fairly good at projecting and defending).

Had enough juice in the force department to prevent Yoda from punking him. If Dooku wasn't strong in the force Yoda could easily have used the force to overwhelm him.

Yoda was the greater master but he wasn't so much greater that he could crush Dooku with any kind of ease. Dooku held is own against Yoda on two ocassions, and punked Asajj Ventress, Anakin and Obi Wan. The guy was easily a level above someone like Malak who would more likely rank a high 6.

prove that obi wan had practiced against force choke

Lord Knightfa11

on the contrary, prove that he DIDN'T.

Man of Christ

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
on the contrary, prove that he DIDN'T.
the burden of proof is on allankes since he made the claim that obi wan could defend against it. not me

Elite Hunter

Originally posted by Man of Christ
prove that obi wan had practiced against force choke

Obiwan: Hey Anakin, I need to work on my force choke defense, mind helping me out?
Anakin:Why certainly master.
Obiwan:Thank you Ana-*gets choked*

Lord Knightfa11

sounds good to me. I want the piece of eu literature that has that in it wink

Darth Exodus

I think that in DE Luke learns how to stop Force Choke from Obi-wans diary or something.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
sabers=dooku(he has ungodly good makashi and at least 70 years of dueling in his belt, while malak is considerably younger, and has not shown very many good saber traits.)
Here is what Malak has shown:

1) Malak managed to block all the Lightsaber blows from the mighty Revan on the Leviathan or he wouldn't have made out in one piece. Is this not impressive?

2) He also tooled Bastilla Shan in a Lightsaber duel and easily subdued her in Leviathan. And it should be kept in mind that she was a very promising Jedi in her time and was even sent to confront the mighty Darth Revan.

3) On the Leviathan, Carth Onasi instantly opened fire on him with his two blaster pistols. However, Malak instantly ignited his Lightsaber and managed to block all the firing from Onasi' Blaster pistols within two seconds and than easily turned the tables on him. This was surely impressive, considering that the attack occurred from a very close distance.

Also! In a preview of the Star Wars: Champions of the Force, Malak's skill is described like this: Darth Malak is a straightforward lightsaber combatant. True to his character, his abilities and powers focus on attacking his enemies head on. His high Defense and Attack scores enable him take on strong opponents, and he can increase his damage through Sith Rage when desired.

I don't think that Malak is un-impressive either. And he also has fought in several wars, in which he was well known for recklessly charging in to dangers and still make out alive. And what did he gained from these Wars? A simple answer is "Experience."

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
force=Dooku (well, you see lightning and the like from dooku, and no such super offensive powers from malak. The only thing that can be said for malak is his ability to controll the star forge, but how is he going to use that ability against dooku?)
Really?

Dude! Malak knows several Force moves that can be used offensively in fight. They are as follows:

1) Force Lightning. (Malak was indeed a master practitioner of Force Lightning. He used it to kill a Jedi instantly on the Star Forge. He also used it to torture Bastilla Shan and she eventually gave in. According to DSSB, Malak was very proficient in this technique.)

2) Force Drain. (This technique can be used offensively in a fight and it sucks out energies of a living organism, making it weaker and weaker until it wears down.)

3) Force Choke. (Malak used this ability to Force choke two Jedi simultaneously.)

4) Stasis Field. (Malak was also proficient in this technique. He could used this technique to paralyze his victims and than wear them down at will, if he wanted to.)

5) Force Whirlwind. (This is a very powerful offensive application of Telekinesis. Malak could used this ability to overwhelm powerful warriors.)

6) Lightsaber Throw. (This is also an application of Telekinesis and like Darth Vader, Malak also could hurl his Lightsaber at a potential target with good precision during fights.)

And according to DSSB, Malak possessed devastating Dark Side power. He even tells Revan that he is better than his Dark Side incarnation. And even if this is a bit of stretch, he was surely the most powerful in his Empire, which does tells us something.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
all out=Dooku (2/2)
This is too far-fetched. Don't you think?

And against Star Forge Malak, Dooku surely stands no chance.

Ivalice

And against a vjun empowered dooku, malak stands no chance.

Disabaling a formidable dark jedi warrior by merely lifting a finger is very impressive.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Ivalice
And against a vjun empowered dooku, malak stands no chance.
Dude! Any Sith Lord can take advantage of the presence of the strong dark side on that planet. If Dooku gets boosted over there, than same would be the case with Malak.

Originally posted by Ivalice
Disabaling a formidable dark jedi warrior by merely lifting a finger is very impressive.
1) And Force Choking two Jedi simultaneously without even looking at them is also no less impressive.

2) And Force stunning opponents simultaneously is also no less impressive.

3) And tooling a very powerful Jedi warrior with Force Whirlwind is also no less impressive.

Elite Hunter

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Dude! Any Sith Lord can take advantage of the presence of the strong dark side on that planet. If Dooku gets boosted over there, than same would be the case with Malak.

Then the same thing would happen on the star forge to Dooku.

Ivalice

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

1) And Force Choking two Jedi simultaneously without even looking at them is also no less impressive.

2) And Force stunning opponents simultaneously is also no less impressive.

3) And tooling a very powerful Jedi warrior with Force Whirlwind is also no less impressive. Wow i guess darth zannah is more powerful than either dooku or malak because as an untrained child, she snapped the neck of 2 jedi knights.

Again lifting a finger to wtf pwn an opponent is far more impressive than killing 2 jedi knights who had to fight their way through dark jedi's droids and the internal defences thus making them weakened by the time they reach malak.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Dude! Any Sith Lord can take advantage of the presence of the strong dark side on that planet. If Dooku gets boosted over there, than same would be the case with Malak.
Don't be contradictory, remember whenever we debated SF malak vs any tom dick and harry? You were always so insistent that nobody else can tap into the SF except malak, but now you are wrong.

Prove malak can tap into Vjuns dark side energy seeing that palpatines dark jedi and assaji(a very very formidable opponent) couldn't.

Jbill311

^^^
no time to quote, but the first paragraph (after the first quote) is strawman (at least I hope its strawman).

Everything else though, is formally seconded.

Lord Knightfa11

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Here is what Malak has shown:

1) Malak managed to block all the Lightsaber blows from the mighty Revan on the Leviathan or he wouldn't have made out in one piece. Is this not impressive?

the power of revan in saber combat is unestablished as anything other then an unknown. They could both be padawans (unlikely) with sabers and amaizing with force. Little is said or known about their saber abilities.

1. Bastilla is a young jedi knight. She is also a sentinel. He could have tooled her in the force as well. Once again, since bastila is nothing very hot with the saber, this does not prove an amaizing feat. When sent against Revan, she was ultimately tooled, And if malak is nothing super, in the same way, all of the sith/jedi under him would be nothing super, making a super guy stand out amongst them.

And how many other jedi/sith can and have done this? when kenobi/qui gon were confronted with Droideka's they did this against a constant torrent of machine blaster fire.

1. Is this source cannon? it is but a preview.
2. Once again, so many other's can be attributed these powers, it makes him nothing unique or powerful.

woopdedoozerz so can dooku!

where is this from, what source?

what source?

1. darth vader used this once and missed.
2. Dooku is a master of telekenesis, and the order's greatest pupil.

As did maul, zannah, sideous, revan, krayt, kun, droma, luke, dasann, tavion, Brandon, and any other dark side name you can rattle off, according to dssb.

WTF? i think he said that REVAN was better then REVAN's previous darkside person. And this tells us nothing. Name one impressive in his empire.

doubt it. Logically, dooku has more chance of winning.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Then the same thing would happen on the star forge to Dooku.
He needs to understand the secrets of and control the Star Forge as well before getting its support or getting empowered by it. Just by standing on it, a Sith won't become a monster.

Hence, the case of Star Forge is different from that of a dark side planet.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Ivalice
Wow i guess darth zannah is more powerful than either dooku or malak because as an untrained child, she snapped the neck of 2 jedi knights.
It shows that her RAW POWER is immense.

Originally posted by Ivalice
Again lifting a finger to wtf pwn an opponent is far more impressive than killing 2 jedi knights who had to fight their way through dark jedi's droids and the internal defences thus making them weakened by the time they reach malak.
And what about generating a Force Whirlwind and tooling a powerful Jedi warrior with it?

Originally posted by Ivalice
Don't be contradictory, remember whenever we debated SF malak vs any tom dick and harry? You were always so insistent that nobody else can tap into the SF except malak, but now you are wrong.
I am not contradicting dude!

In the case of Star Forge, a Sith Lord needs to understand its secrets and working mechanism and try to control it before gaining any support from it.

Originally posted by Ivalice
Prove malak can tap into Vjuns dark side energy seeing that palpatines dark jedi and assaji(a very very formidable opponent) couldn't.
Was Assajj a very powerful force user like Dooku or Malak?

And Palpatine's Dark Jedi means jack shit here.

Malak has shown us that he could tap in to and control a mighty dark side superweapon called Star Forge and gain its support. Hence, he surely is capable of tapping in to dark side energies of a Dark Side planet.

Elite Hunter

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
He needs to understand the secrets of and control the Star Forge as well before getting its support or getting empowered by it. Just by standing on it, a Sith won't become a monster.

Hence, the case of Star Forge is different from that of a dark side planet.

Bullshit! Dooku can certainly gain the normal darkside boost from the star forge because it is a massive darkside object. Unless you can prove that the star forge's darkside presence is hidden(or on a different frequency) from other powerful darksider users. The secret that Malak used was with preserving the jedi's to drain energy from.

What Malak discovered is as he says And as wookieepedia makes my point and im short on time

Nothing says that Dooku couldn't get the normal darkside boost from it. Which you would have to prove.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Bullshit! Dooku can certainly gain the normal darkside boost from the star forge because it is a massive darkside object. Unless you can prove that the star forge's darkside presence is hidden(or on a different frequency) from other powerful darksider users. The secret that Malak used was with preserving the jedi's to drain energy from.
Dude! Every Sith Lord would get the so called normal dark side boost on the Star Forge.

Though! To get empowered by it in such a manner that an individual becomes nearly unstoppable requires more than just staying on it.

Is this so hard to understand?

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
What Malak discovered is as he says And as wookieepedia makes my point and im short on time
It shows that he understands Star Forge far better by that time.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Nothing says that Dooku couldn't get the normal darkside boost from it. Which you would have to prove.
Yes! He would but that happened to all the Sith stationed on it. But Malak still seemed to benefit more than that, right?

Here is a clue: "The Star Forge was doing exactly what Malak wanted it to do." Now go figure!

Ivalice

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It shows that her RAW POWER is immense. And it shows that(by your logic) zannah is FAR more powerful than malak.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

And what about generating a Force Whirlwind and tooling a powerful Jedi warrior with it? And what about generating a technique on a powerful dude whom by your own words was unable to defend against it because he was still in shock from the revelation?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

In the case of Star Forge, a Sith Lord needs to understand its secrets and working mechanism and try to control it before gaining any support from it. Can you prove this? Who said you need to understand how a machine functions to merely tap into the dark side energy surrounding the machine? If malak, bastila and other tom dick and harry's can get empowered on the SF, i don't see why dooku can't.

DROP the kotor fanboyism.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Was Assajj a very powerful force user like Dooku or Malak? Were the 2 jedi knights whom were battered by countless droids and dark jedi as well as the internal defences before confronting malak even comparable to that of assaji ventress? An extremely formidable dark jedi that could fight toe to toe with ROTS anakin?
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

And Palpatine's Dark Jedi means jack shit here. Jack shit? They could fight toe to toe with DE luke(whom by then, luke has surpassed most of the PT jedi superior to Kotor jedi and became even more powerful after his training with palpatine) and not get tooled in the process.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Malak has shown us that he could tap in to and control a mighty dark side superweapon called Star Forge and gain its support. Hence, he surely is capable of tapping in to dark side energies of a Dark Side planet. LOL and that means dooku can't? If he can tap into a dark side planet i don't see why he can't do the same to the SF, he DOES NOT need to understand the secrets of the SF to merely tap into its dark side energy.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Though! To get empowered by it in such a manner that an individual becomes nearly unstoppable requires more than just staying on it.

QUIT taking things out of context and STOP grasping at straws legend, the unstoppable shit was pointed to malak AND his sith armada, it was NOT pointed to the individual. Read the quote more carefully.

Malak was nearly unstoppable, but the Republic emerged from that epic conflict victorious, as the Star Forge was eventually destroyed

Just look at "but the republic emerged". That quote was in reference to malaks EMPIRE in the space battle.

You may think he is unstoppable individually, but all he was doing is draining captive jedi to replenish his life force after getting struck down time and again.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Ivalice
And it shows that(by your logic) zannah is FAR more powerful than malak.
And Dooku.

Her Raw Power was probably greater than either of these two. Or perhaps she managed to tap far in to her potential in a fit of rage.

Remember that when Obi-Wan tapped in to the Dark Side, he managed to push back Maul for a brief period of time.

So you pick one.

Originally posted by Ivalice
And what about generating a technique on a powerful dude whom by your own words was unable to defend against it because he was still in shock from the revelation?
A Jedi in a state of shock and rage, is till a formidable foe. For example: Anakin at Mustafar wasn't playing with Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by Ivalice
Can you prove this? Who said you need to understand how a machine functions to merely tap into the dark side energy surrounding the machine? If malak, bastila and other tom dick and harry's can get empowered on the SF, i don't see why dooku can't.
Not just tap in to the Dark Side of the machine but to understand its functions and nature and utilize that knowledge to use the machine to do your bidding at will.

Originally posted by Ivalice
DROP the kotor fanboyism.
So debating in the favor a KOTOR character makes a debator a KOTOR fanboy whereas, debating in favor of a PT character makes him or her sensible and nuetral?

Originally posted by Ivalice
Were the 2 jedi knights whom were battered by countless droids and dark jedi as well as the internal defences before confronting malak even comparable to that of assaji ventress? An extremely formidable dark jedi that could fight toe to toe with ROTS anakin?
And weren't those Jedi powerful and skilled combatants, as they went through hell in the Star Forge and still made to Malak's place in one piece?

And they were two instead of one.

Originally posted by Ivalice
Jack shit? They could fight toe to toe with DE luke(whom by then, luke has surpassed most of the PT jedi superior to Kotor jedi and became even more powerful after his training with palpatine) and not get tooled in the process.
Assajj could put up a decent fight against ROTS Anakin, who managed to kill Count Dooku. So by your logic, she should be able to defeat Count Dooku as well, right?

Dude! "Force Mastery" is what we are discussing over here. Count Dooku brough Assaj to her knees through his exceptional "Force Mastery."

Originally posted by Ivalice
LOL and that means dooku can't? If he can tap into a dark side planet i don't see why he can't do the same to the SF, he DOES NOT need to understand the secrets of the SF to merely tap into its dark side energy.
You do not understand the nature of the Star Forge, so I can't help here.

NOTE: Star Forge was more than just a Dark Side place. Controlling it wasn't that easy.

Originally posted by Ivalice
QUIT taking things out of context and STOP grasping at straws legend, the unstoppable shit was pointed to malak AND his sith armada, it was NOT pointed to the individual. Read the quote more carefully.
Dude! That comment was also aimed towards Malak as an individual. Remember that they used the term "Malak was nearly unstoppable" and not "Malak' Sith Empire was nearly unstoppable."

Hence, they were pointing out towards Malak himself and also his Empire in that one comment.

Originally posted by Ivalice
Just look at "but the republic emerged". That quote was in reference to malaks EMPIRE in the space battle.
Dude! They skipped several details and just gave an over-view.

What about Revan's role? Did they mentione anything about that.

Originally posted by Ivalice
You may think he is unstoppable individually, but all he was doing is draining captive jedi to replenish his life force after getting struck down time and again.
Who told you that he got struck down time and again during the battle? He wasn't going down until his supply-line was completely cut off. After that, he was struck down in a Lightsaber duel, as revealed in Duron' dream.

Ivalice

Legend, your extreme stubborness makes me no longer interested in debating with you(not that i can't come up with a rebuttal but i simply choose not to). You win. I'll leave this to gideon if he sees it.

ThoraxeRMG

He did give some great points though.
He's gained my respect.

Elite Hunter

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Dude! Every Sith Lord would get the so called normal dark side boost on the Star Forge.

Though! To get empowered by it in such a manner that an individual becomes nearly unstoppable requires more than just staying on it.

Is this so hard to understand?

It shows that he understands Star Forge far better by that time.

Yes! He would but that happened to all the Sith stationed on it. But Malak still seemed to benefit more than that, right?

Here is a clue: "The Star Forge was doing exactly what Malak wanted it to do." Now go figure!

I reread our debate and I believe we were misunderstanding the problem. You originally said that Malak would get a boost on Vjun and i said than Dooku would logically get the same boost from the star forge. Then you said that he wouldn't get a boost (which i interpreted as the normal boost) because he doesn't know the secrets of it which is bs. However since you are referring to the secrets that Malak unlocked which was the star forge being able to hold jedi captive and drain them, i would say if he were to drain one jedi in combat vs dooku than it is very probable that dooku could figure out what just happened to Malak.

Lord Knightfa11

what i am so curious about is how he alwas follows the first word of every paragraph with an exclamation mark.

Dude!

Yes!

Though! (wth? this doesnt make any sense)

Elite Hunter

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
A Star Wars author told me that Malak also practiced Juyo during his days as a Dark Lord.

Let me guess....Was it Drew? Regardless the author is not a canon source if we were take everything the authors(notably Karen traviss) says that is not included in the books than Boba Fett and the Mandalorians would be a greater rival to the jedi than the sith. Bottom line malak knowing juyo needs to come from a canon source. If we were to guess Malak's form based on gameplay it would more likely be a Makashi variant due to him using one hand for lightsaber dueling a good portion of his duel vs revan.

If the LOE quote is accurate than it does not contradict the movie seeing as how it did still occur later than LOE even if it was not by much.

Lord Knightfa11

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
During the battle of the Star Forge, Revan demonstrated amazing display of power, skill and maturity. And for this, he was declared to be a prodigy in a ceremony held after that battle. Is it clear now?

1. I am not arguing against revan's skill.
2. The revan that faced malak on the star forge and malak somehow survived against was still without any memories of tecniques or powers from his previous life; making him the equivelent of a gifted padawan.
3. When malak did go up against the all powerful revan with his knowledge of the darkside and the lightside, he was star forge powered and had an ungodly head start against revan; and still lost. This says alot about malak's lack of skill, or alot for revan's power. I prefer a medium of both.

no duh. How could he be the sith lord and not be? My arguement is, who are the ones hes above? any amaizing godlike people? Thought not.

Yaaay! three cheers for "a star wars author" fyi, just because some star wars author told you something does not make it cannon, because it is not approved by george lucas, and he could have just farted that out on the spur of the moment.

As it does for dooku, if I am not mistaken.

Yay. Unfortunately, your not backing me into the "revan is crap" corner.

To be unique. I do not care. This is pure speculation.

could be... possible... Get a point. You are also greeted with several no names in the koriban training facility who use a saber staff.

The thing is you can't prove she was good or something or was trying to improve her dueling abilities. She can, and may be excelent, but not even close to on par with dooku. Unless you can prove that bastila is anywhere near close to dooku in skill/force abilities, you have no point.

I understand the logic and its purpose. IT is to imply that since bastila has a double bladed lightsaber, she MUST be supremely saber orriented and ungodly good.

speculation yet again.

Yay, she killed revan's flunkies.

Doesn't mean they have to be good at both, they can suck at both.

Um... yea... As i said before, this is speculation and educated guesses. I am kind of tired of giving you a good talking to about bastila, when she doesnt even really impact this fight. Unless you can prove she is close to dooku in power/skill, i see no point in arguing Bastila's case furthur.

Yay. she doesnt suck. she cant even compare with dooku.

yaya! he blocked blasterfire! godly power!
1. How is he going to use this against revan?
2. How is he going to use this against revan?

Darth bandon, whom is nothing special.
From the official starwars profile of Darth Bandon:

=> There he embraced the dark side and the way of the Sith with every fiber of his being. His great strength in the Force, his natural cruelty and his absolute ruthlessness in his quest for power soon set him apart from his fellow students, and drew the calculating eye of Lord Malak himself.

Just by stating a quote like "devastating darkside power" one does not automatically match the power of a Dark Lord who was stated to be the greatest student of the jedi counsil on coruscaunt.

He does.

yea... and makashi is the single best dueling form.

Yay. He said that mace windu was the only one who could stand up to him on even ground. Not that mace windu wasn't slightly better.

He fled when he faced them both in one-on-one combat situation. And if only these two could stand up to him, than how the hell Anakin bested him?
Hes the chosen one, and the fact that noobikin bested him does not undo a cannon quote. Anakin won through sheer brute strength and the old man could not withstand his "meteorlike" blows.

and luke knew how? how did he know, or was this blind speculation that vader was on the light side?

Well he left before your god awful chosen one was anything special, so history does not=the chosen one.

see? these types of quotes go for everyone, yet what has bandon done? what feats has he shown? NONE.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
I reread our debate and I believe we were misunderstanding the problem. You originally said that Malak would get a boost on Vjun and i said than Dooku would logically get the same boost from the star forge. Then you said that he wouldn't get a boost (which i interpreted as the normal boost) because he doesn't know the secrets of it which is bs. However since you are referring to the secrets that Malak unlocked which was the star forge being able to hold jedi captive and drain them, i would say if he were to drain one jedi in combat vs dooku than it is very probable that dooku could figure out what just happened to Malak.
OK! I will be more clear this time!

We know that Star Forge and Vjun are two places filled with dark side energies. Now a powerful Sith Lord should be able to tap in to these energies and boost his power. Dooku did this on Vjun and Malak did this on Star Forge.

Now the Star Forge is more than just a place filled with dark side energies. It is like a living organism that can help a Sith Lord in special ways, who can understand its secrets, which would allow him to use its power.

So apart from getting the so called normal dark side boost in the Star Forge, Malak also utiltized its power and capabilities to make himself nearly unstoppable in a duel. And this could only be achieved by understanding its secrets and functions.

Hence! Star Forge can provide additional benefits to a Sith Lord that a planet won't.

Ivalice

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Hence! Star Forge can provide additional benefits to a Sith Lord that a planet won't. What additional benefits? Such as draining captive jedi which revan was able to do in kotor?

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Ivalice
What additional benefits? Such as draining captive jedi which revan was able to do in kotor?
Ivalice!

The Star Forge allowed those Jedi to be kept in Stasis form, preventing them from becoming one with the Force. This allowed Malak to drain them at will to replenish his energies.

Elite Hunter

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
OK! I will be more clear this time!

We know that Star Forge and Vjun are two places filled with dark side energies. Now a powerful Sith Lord should be able to tap in to these energies and boost his power. Dooku did this on Vjun and Malak did this on Star Forge.

Now the Star Forge is more than just a place filled with dark side energies. It is like a living organism that can help a Sith Lord in special ways, who can understand its secrets, which would allow him to use its power.

1.Yup
2. It is more of a semi sentient object of the darkside like the darkstaff.

The only secret that affect his power personally that we see is him draining the jedi captives to regain his power so if Dooku saw him do that, there is nothing stopping him from draining a captive jedi to. ( if he has force drain that is but the point im trying to make is ubiversal for any character with drain) So do post the other secrets of the star forge other than holding the captive jedi hostage for Malak that would affect him personally. And if anything the star forge could hurt him over a long period of time like the rakata (but that is not a factor here). As he says it feeds on the darkside in them.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The Star Forge allowed those Jedi to be kept in Stasis form, preventing them from becoming one with the Force. This allowed Malak to drain them at will to replenish his energies.

Yea and there is nothing that suggests that people like sidious,kun or Traya cant walk onto the star forge and drain them too.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Ivalice
I believe he is roughly on the same level as OT vader in sheer power and mastery.

yeah I agree.. he does seem to be about that powerful with the Force. which wuld make him approx 80% of Sidious.

probably a higher % when compared to Yoda as Sidious seemed to have the edge over Yoda in Force powers.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
The only secret that affect his power personally that we see is him draining the jedi captives to regain his power so if Dooku saw him do that, there is nothing stopping him from draining a captive jedi to. ( if he has force drain that is but the point im trying to make is ubiversal for any character with drain) So do post the other secrets of the star forge other than holding the captive jedi hostage for Malak that would affect him personally. And if anything the star forge could hurt him over a long period of time like the rakata (but that is not a factor here). As he says it feeds on the darkside in them.
The Star Forge helped Malak build and maintain a permanent energy supply-line which allowed him to stay and fight back in a duel for a long period of time or else he wouldn't have lasted that long. That's why when his energy supply-line was cut, he actually fell.

Hence! The Star Forge gave Malak an additional advantage apart from boosting his power with dark side energies. Now what Star Forge did for Malak during that final duel is a feat that a planet won't do for any Sith Lord.

Another example is the case of the Bastilla Shan:

She herself stood no chance against Revan in a one-on-one fight. So when she faced him in combat, the Star Forge directly aided her with its power, which allowed her to stand up to Revan for a long period of time, as the Star Forge itself quickly replenished her energies and power during the duel, whenever it was necessary. Hence! It was not a fair contest at all as well.

But it should be kept in mind that the Star Forge helped Bastilla Shan because Malak wanted it to do that. The Star Forge was doing exactly what Malak wanted it to do and how this was possible? Unlike any other Sith Lord, Malak did not limited his contact with the Star Forge and thus managed to tap in to its secrets and power, which gave him a distinct advantage and made him nearly unstoppable. This is one of his biggest feats. He became so powerful during his reign as the Dark Lord that he managed to control the Star Forge after he tried to tap in to its power and learn its secrets. Probably his great strength in the Force helped him, for Star Forge only served those who were masters of the Dark Side. Hence the DSSB points out that Malak possessed devastating dark side power.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Yea and there is nothing that suggests that people like sidious,kun or Traya cant walk onto the star forge and drain them too.
The creation of a permanent energy supply-line with help from Star Forge' technology by Malak and the prevention of the Jedi captives from becoming one with the Force by the Star Forge itself is what I am talking about.

All Malak did then was to drain them whenever it was necessary, which helped him to prolong the fight.

I agree that other Sith Lords who know Force Drain can also benefit from this help. But they need to know the secrets of the Star Forge first before they would be able to take advantage of its help or otherwise they would never know what Star Forge is capable of doing and would not be able to build an energy supply-line like that. This is where Malak gets the distinction because he knows what Star Forge is capable of and how to take benefit from its power.

Lt. Valerian

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Malak also utiltized its power and capabilities to make himself nearly unstoppable in a duel.

Actually, no.

It was never stated that Malak was nearly unstoppable in a duel, the quote refers to him being nearly unstoppable in terms of military forces and galactic conquest, not dueling.

Elite Hunter

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The Star Forge helped Malak build and maintain a permanent energy supply-line which allowed him to stay and fight back in a duel for a long period of time or else he wouldn't have lasted that long. That's why when his energy supply-line was cut, he actually fell.

Hence! The Star Forge gave Malak an additional advantage apart from boosting his power with dark side energies. Now what Star Forge did for Malak during that final duel is a feat that a planet won't do for any Sith Lord.
The exact knowledge of the duel remains unknown. We know that Malak drained a captive at least once. The star forge was essentially re-powering him to continue fighting. However that doesn't mean he would have the chance vs other opponents who are better than Revan in lightsaber combat. And a case could be made for Sion getting energy from Malachor (and likely korriban or other darkside worlds) to heal himself after fighting the exile.

Good for him he could control the star forge and how many other sith could do that if they were alive? A lot of the powerhouses could easily do it i given the chance.

No duh

Um ,that was my whole point the only thing the star forge does that a planet would not be able to do is replenish his power by draining the captive jedi. A sith who is fightning Malak sees this can does the same thing for himself.

They see Malak drains a jedi and they noticed the difference in him and they do the same do get their energy restored.It's monkey see-monkey do here. You don't have to be a genius to figure out what happened to him. Unless of course you could prove that the star forge wouldn't allow Kun or Sidious from draining the jedi which of course you can't.

Essentially Malak's big secret would only help him once vs any powerhouse before they do the same and depending on who it is they kill him.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Lt. Valerian
Actually, no.

It was never stated that Malak was nearly unstoppable in a duel, the quote refers to him being nearly unstoppable in terms of military forces and galactic conquest, not dueling.
That comment was also aimed towards Malak. Remember that they used the term "Malak was nearly unstoppable" and not "Malak' Sith Empire was nearly unstoppable."

Hence they were pointing out towards both: A) Malak and B) His Sith Empire, in that single comment. Malak used the Star Forge to become nearly unstoppable himself as well.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
The exact knowledge of the duel remains unknown. We know that Malak drained a captive at least once. The star forge was essentially re-powering him to continue fighting.
He drained Jedi captives as indicated in his official profile.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
However that doesn't mean he would have the chance vs other opponents who are better than Revan in lightsaber combat.
Fights in Star Wars do not always come down to pure Lightsaber combat. Also keep in mind that DSSB pointed out that on the Star Forge, Malak' gained extraordinary powers. He was defeated only after his supply-line was cut. Though you have a point that a very skilled swordsman might be able to land a fatal blow on Malak, provided he gets lucky enough and does not becomes victim of Malak' extraordinary Force powers first.

So things aren't as black & white as we would like to perceive them to be. And Revan is a great deal ahead of Dooku in terms of power and skills. Hence very few individuals would be able to best him on the Star Forge.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
And a case could be made for Sion getting energy from Malachor (and likely korriban or other darkside worlds) to heal himself after fighting the exile.
Sion had already achieved the so called immortality and on Malachor V, his power was further boosted.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Good for him he could control the star forge and how many other sith could do that if they were alive? A lot of the powerhouses could easily do it i given the chance.
To control the Star Forge, the criteria is as follows:

1) The individual should be a Force Sensitive and strong in the Force.
2) The individual should be trained to use the Dark Side.
3) The individual needs to learn the secrets of the Star Forge.

Very few people meet the first two criteria. The 3rd depends upon the level of interest of a Sith Lord. Since Star Forge is a very deadly object, few would like to mess with it.

And there aren't a lot of powerhouses even in the history of Sith.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Um ,that was my whole point the only thing the star forge does that a planet would not be able to do is replenish his power by draining the captive jedi. A sith who is fightning Malak sees this can does the same thing for himself.
You still did not get it. The Star Forge helps Malak in establishing a huge energy supply-line, which he would use to his benefit in the duel. The only criteria is that the Sith Lord must have knowledge of Force Drain.

If the opponent knows the Force Drain, than he can also take advantage but that Dark Lord should be very powerful in the Force as well. However in this case, Dooku has not demonstrated such abilities and neither have Maul and Vader. Only Sidious knows it.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
They see Malak drains a jedi and they noticed the difference in him and they do the same do get their energy restored.It's monkey see-monkey do here. You don't have to be a genius to figure out what happened to him. Unless of course you could prove that the star forge wouldn't allow Kun or Sidious from draining the jedi which of course you can't.
Sidious is indeed an exception. Not only he is smart but he knows Force Drain, so it would be monkey see-monkey do situation with him. And if Kun knows Force Drain than he would also have a chance.

Though I would hate to repeat it again but it is true that both Kun and Sidious are also a great deal ahead of Dooku in terms of power and skill.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Essentially Malak's big secret would only help him once vs any powerhouse before they do the same and depending on who it is they kill him.
Agreed!

But the opponent must have knowledge of Force Drain and should be extraordinarly powerful in the Force.

Lt. Valerian

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
That comment was also aimed towards Malak. Remember that they used the term "Malak was nearly unstoppable" and not "Malak' Sith Empire was nearly unstoppable."

Hence they were pointing out towards both: A) Malak and B) His Sith Empire, in that single comment. Malak used the Star Forge to become nearly unstoppable himself as well.

No, of course they wouldn't go and say "Malak's Sith Empire was nearly unstoppable", they would point out the responsible of these major galactic events instead of referring to his whole army.

And still, Revan bunkers down that argument by taking Malak out one-on-one, empowered by the Star Forge. Clearly, he was not even close to being "nearly unstoppable" in a duel, as other Jedi and Sith of different eras are notably more powerful and would've taken down the Sith Lord more easily.

Lord Tyranus

Look at my screenname and ask me what I think...

Blax_Hydralisk

Oh shit.

Where you been, man?

Lord Tyranus

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
Oh shit.

Where you been, man?

MySpace. no expression

Blax_Hydralisk

It swallows us all. no expression

Lord Tyranus

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
It swallows us all. no expression

Lol no kiddin. Actually I just remembered my name and password to this place like a half hour ago and decided to start pissin of the "real" Star Wars Fans with my crude attitude again...haha

ThoraxeRMG

Thanks to you I experimented with Shricken.
It's pain to stick them inside the wings though, but good as hell.

Ivalice

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
That comment was also aimed towards Malak. Remember that they used the term "Malak was nearly unstoppable" and not "Malak' Sith Empire was nearly unstoppable."

Hence they were pointing out towards both: A) Malak and B) His Sith Empire, in that single comment. Malak used the Star Forge to become nearly unstoppable himself as well. You seriously need to learn to read properly legend, we may be on friendly terms but your sheer stubborness(which is comparable to nebaris) is getting EXTREMELY irritating.

Didn't you see "malak was nearly unstoppable, but the republic emerged victorious"?

That ALONE was in reference to malaks military power. Hell going by your logic, if some author stated "sadam was nearly unstoppable, but the united states army emerged victorious", does it mean sadam, some tyrant whom would get his ass kicked damn easily by any elite soldier is unstoppable as an individual?

@BTW have you played mass effect?

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Ivalice
You seriously need to learn to read properly legend, we may be on friendly terms but your sheer stubborness(which is comparable to nebaris) is getting EXTREMELY irritating.

Didn't you see "malak was nearly unstoppable, but the republic emerged victorious"?

That ALONE was in reference to malaks military power. Hell going by your logic, if some author stated "sadam was nearly unstoppable, but the united states army emerged victorious", does it mean sadam, some tyrant whom would get his ass kicked damn easily by any elite soldier is unstoppable as an individual?
You love to pick some random lines and than use them in debates?

From Malak' official profile: The Sith Lord had grotesquely adapted the Rakatan device to draw energy directly from chained Jedi captives. He replenished his life force from the captives by draining theirs. Malak was nearly unstoppable.

Now don't you think that Malak had done something to make himself nearly unstoppable as well?

The Star Forge was helping both Malak and his military simultaneously. It made them both nearly unstoppable. Hence this line: Malak was nearly unstoppable, but the Republic emerged from that epic conflict victorious, as the Star Forge was eventually destroyed.

So what is the key here? The answer is: The Star Forge. So when it was destroyed, the game was over.

And did they mentioned anything about the role of Revan in that war? NO. Only an over-view of the events have been provided in that official profile and many details have been skipped. The word "Malak" refers to himself and also indirectly points towards his Empire. So try to understand the logic behind it.

And using the analogy of Sadam as a comparison is absurd. He is not a Jedi or a super-commando.

Ivalice

You know legend the only thing im interested to know now is weather you played mass effect smile

. I kind of lost the spirit to debate so it no longer interests me.

No hard feelings though.

Darth Maliko

Originally posted by Ivalice
I did try searching this but i only recall seeing SF malak vs dooku.

Anyways setting is on Vjun.

So basically its vjun empowered dooku(similar to SF powered malak) vs malak.

Saber
Force
All out

Under these conditions, I'd have to say Dooku takes it.
And if it were Vjun Dooku vs. SF Malak, then Malak would have it.

Gideon

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You love to pick some random lines and than use them in debates?

From Malak' official profile: The Sith Lord had grotesquely adapted the Rakatan device to draw energy directly from chained Jedi captives. He replenished his life force from the captives by draining theirs. Malak was nearly unstoppable.

Now don't you think that Malak had done something to make himself nearly unstoppable as well?

The Star Forge was helping both Malak and his military simultaneously. It made them both nearly unstoppable. Hence this line: Malak was nearly unstoppable, but the Republic emerged from that epic conflict victorious, as the Star Forge was eventually destroyed.

So what is the key here? The answer is: The Star Forge. So when it was destroyed, the game was over.

And did they mentioned anything about the role of Revan in that war? NO. Only an over-view of the events have been provided in that official profile and many details have been skipped. The word "Malak" refers to himself and also indirectly points towards his Empire. So try to understand the logic behind it.

And using the analogy of Sadam as a comparison is absurd. He is not a Jedi or a super-commando.

Actually, the point that they raise is very valid. Numerous historians and historical records reference how the Allied Forces "did battle with Hitler" -- even though the German dictator was never on the frontlines and never waged battle, personally, against any of his foes. Add to the fact that the context of the situation supports that theory: it wasn't the Republic versus just Malak, it was the Republic versus Sith. The Star Forge is referenced because it was the foundry that supplied the Sith with their fighters and ships, another reference to Malak's forces -- not the man himself.

Noscopever

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
OK! I will be more clear this time!

So apart from getting the so called normal dark side boost in the Star Forge, Malak also utiltized its power and capabilities to make himself nearly unstoppable in a duel. And this could only be achieved by understanding its secrets and functions.

Hence! Star Forge can provide additional benefits to a Sith Lord that a planet won't.

So what would his "boost" be? Malak doesn't use the force as much as Dooku, therefore his ties to the force must be weaker than those of Tryannus. Furthermore, even with his "boost", Dooku was trained by The Emperor, and as you and I both know, in a duel, The Emperor would destroy Malak.

I remember from KotOR Malak's skill with a lightsaber, but he could be the greatest sith warrior, and still Count Dooku would defeat him, simply because he is stronger with the force. When it comes right down to it, as Kreia said: "Nothing is impossible throught the force. The Force drives all things. The slightest touch, the slighest action, will create an echo which can destroy worlds."

Lord Knightfa11

Originally posted by Noscopever
So what would his "boost" be? Malak doesn't use the force as much as Dooku, therefore his ties to the force must be weaker than those of Tryannus. Furthermore, even with his "boost", Dooku was trained by The Emperor, and as you and I both know, in a duel, The Emperor would destroy Malak.
you are either authentically new, or you are noobaris. Either way, I am not going to be abrasive, I am going to tell you where you are wrong.
1. Using the force in rarity does not suggest that one does not have alot of force power. Ex.: Cade Skywalker can use the force to heal to the point of preventing death, and yet turns away from the jedi and tries as little as possible to use the force. This does not make him "weaker" then a padawan who can and will use the force.
2. The emperor destroying malak would not be relevant at this point, because Dooku is not the emperor, and is not even close to the emperor.
3. Prove that their ties to the force are at different levels.

There are people on these forums who would pick this apart as speculation and flame your ass out of KMC for this speculation.

IAMBATMAN

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

2. The emperor destroying malak would not be relevant at this point, because Dooku is not the emperor, and is not even close to the emperor.

It is, because dooku is roughly as powerful as vader when it comes to force mastery and vader is close to sidious in power.

Lord Knightfa11

Dooku>vader>sideous. Not even close.

IAMBATMAN

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
Dooku>vader>sideous. Not even close. Did you see the word force mastery or are you too egoistic to even bother understanding what the term meant?

Hell dooku's force mastery spans several decades and it rivals vaders( vaders raw power surpasses dooku)

So obviously dooku has mastered the force to a higher degree than malak.

Lord Knightfa11

Originally posted by IAMBATMAN
It is, because dooku is roughly as powerful as vader when it comes to force mastery and vader is close to sidious in power.
Since you posted it, the burden is on you to prove/back it up. I am not on malak's side, either. Tyrranus wtfpwnz him, want my reasons? go back a page or two.
1. prove that dooku is roughly as powerful as vader.
2. 80% is not close enough so that you could have sideous kill malak on vader's behalf and use that as an arguement for vader vs malak. It would be far more difficult and far fetched to try to prove that Dooku is equal to vader and thus 80% of sideous. It is even harder to then say that sence sideous could curbstomp malak and vader is 80% of sideous, and dooku is equal to vader in terms of force power, so that sideous wins. This is because you are relying on a few things that turn out to be pure speculation.
1. How easily sids would tool malak in the force.
To prove that someone 80% of sideous could take malak, you would have to prove how easily sideous takes out malak. Although everyone will probably speculate on the relatively easy side, this will prove very hard to prove.
2. How does dooku match vader? The best way to find out is to compare them both to sideous. However, since they were both under sideous at different times, you can expect that vader will probably be more powerful at his peak. If you were to argue that dooku=80% of sideous, you would probably go so far as rots sideous. If you were to argue that Vader is 80% of sideous, the g-cannon quote was said about him around the time of the OT. IT would be very hard to compair their abilities.
3. Your whole arguement is based on a faulty use of a disproved system. The a>b>c. Only your a>B>C reads like this:
Dooku just might equal vader who is 80% of Sideous, who could probably easily kill malak.
The parts in bold are the pure speculation parts.

Sidi-Boy

Hmm... I think I'm going with Dooku here. Dooku's saber skills are absolutely incredible, and he's hardly a slouch in lightning and choke, the same techniques that Malak was seen using often; the only advantage Malak would have on Dooku in the force is drain, and seeing as there will be nothing to drain here, and Dooku probably has highly potent force defenses, in addition to his vastly greater experience.

While bringing up Sidious will be relevant due to the fact that he did instruct Dooku in the usage of most dark side techniques, Dooku mentioned how Sidious never bothered to teach him lightsaber techniques. Therefore, Sidious' prowess with a lightsaber is completely irrelevant in this debate.

Also, Knightfall, Dooku is Sidious' probably greatest long-time apprentice (not counting Mustafar Vader), due to his high degree of force mastery and his prowess with the lightsaber; his technical skill is basically the best that can be, and he is also faster and more mobile than suited Vader. While Vader might've learned more dark side abilities than Dooku had, Dooku both had a far longer time to learn the usage of the force, and was also capable of using lightning, something that Vader was simply incapable of doing. Vader's raw power was also significantly decreased after Obi-Wan turned him into roast beef on Mustafar.

Lord Knightfa11

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Hmm... I think I'm going with Dooku here. Dooku's saber skills are absolutely incredible, and he's hardly a slouch in lightning and choke, the same techniques that Malak was seen using often; the only advantage Malak would have on Dooku in the force is drain, and seeing as there will be nothing to drain here, and Dooku probably has highly potent force defenses, in addition to his vastly greater experience.

Yes, it is dooku who takes it.

Yes but you can't use the fact that sideous would take malak apart to say dooku would, because, frankly, sideous would take bane and Revan apart. So by this arguement Dooku>bane and dooku>revan.

I'm not arguing that dooku is not the shiz with the saber, but he is not close enough to sideous to say that sideous wins this so dooku wins this.

Sidi-Boy

And I did not once deny anything you said, Knightfall.

Lord Knightfa11

lol i guess you didn't...

IAMBATMAN

Knightfall, quit being a smart ass and learn to read.

I said dooku is roughly as powerful as vader in terms of force mastery.

Did you see the word in terms of force mastery? He obviously studied the force longer than vader(decades). But that does not mean he is more powerful than vader overall considering that vaders force mastery is also very formidable and the fact that he has incredible raw power and demonstrated much skill in using the force.

Lord Knightfa11

Originally posted by IAMBATMAN
Knightfall, quit being a smart ass and learn to read.

I said dooku is roughly as powerful as vader in terms of force mastery.

Did you see the word in terms of force mastery? He obviously studied the force longer than vader(decades). But that does not mean he is more powerful than vader overall considering that vaders force mastery is also very formidable and the fact that he has incredible raw power and demonstrated much skill in using the force.
I read what you said, and I understand what you are trying to say. You have a point that he studied the force longer, and I am just saying that it is too hard to compare them to use this as an arguement.

1. "roughly as powerful in terms of force mastery" is speculation, and not backed by any canon sources, unless you are prepared to list their feats and abilities next to each other, along with how one feat and ability is better then another. Just dont go to the point of arguing with me over something you speculated as canon. And don't go insulting me when i tell you this.
2. I meant in terms of force mastery in everything above. Your point once again takes a very difficult arc of A>b>C. dooku is equal to vader (yet to be proven) and vader is 80% of sideous, and sideous owns malak with less then 80% of his effort (yet to be proven) so then, vader could do it, and since vader can do it, then dooku can because he is equal to vader (yet to be proven)

IAMBATMAN

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
I read what you said, and I understand what you are trying to say. You have a point that he studied the force longer, and I am just saying that it is too hard to compare them to use this as an arguement. You saying so does not make it so. Considering the fact you even responded pretty much made it clear that you don't understand it.
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

1. "roughly as powerful in terms of force mastery" is speculation, and not backed by any canon sources, unless you are prepared to list their feats and abilities next to each other, along with how one feat and ability is better then another. Just dont go to the point of arguing with me over something you speculated as canon. And don't go insulting me when i tell you this.
You know what? You are a fu-cking idiot. Its obvious by CANON FACT that dooku studied the force longer than vader which would mean his force mastery is on a very high level so how exactly is that speculating my friend? Just read more comics and novels and hell find out when he(dooku) even started his force training, i don't see how this is speculation when common sense points out the facts.
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

2. I meant in terms of force mastery in everything above. Your point once again takes a very difficult arc of A>b>C. dooku is equal to vader (yet to be proven) and vader is 80% of sideous, and sideous owns malak with less then 80% of his effort (yet to be proven) so then, vader could do it, and since vader can do it, then dooku can because he is equal to vader (yet to be proven) Again this isn't A>b>c if you actually understood what i was trying to imply.

You meant in terms of force mastery in everything above, but i meant in terms of force mastery alone. Learn to read and shut the hell up.

Lord Knightfa11

Originally posted by IAMBATMAN
You saying so does not make it so. Considering the fact you even responded pretty much made it clear that you don't understand it.
?

this is obviously pointless to your debate. The only use of this is to annoy and to fling insults. You are proving with inappropriate language and blatant insults that you are the idiot.

It is not speculation to say either, but it is speculation to compare him with vader and use that as a figure against malak. There is also more to the force then just studying it. Yoda studied the force for 800 years and barely matched up to sideous's probable 60. Time does not equal power, as has been proven in "the most knowledgeable characters in the force" thread.

I know dooku has upwards of 70 years of training. Sideous is how old in rots? He probably had 60 years of training under his belt. But if dooku studied as long or more then sideous, why isn't he more powerful? stop this nonsence that you call common sense. Vader is the chosen one, has far more force potential and is 80% of sideous. once again, find a way to link vader to tyranus, and I will understand.

By my logic, tyranus would be MORE powerful then vader. Vader has never shown lightning on dooku's scale (much less any lightning at all) However, this is extremely difficult to prove.

if every meaning i grasp at from your comment is a misunderstanding of what you were trying to imply, don't imply. Restate, right now, EXACTLY and BLATANTLY what you meant to say.

omg. You know I meant force master alone when I said that. you are trying to sound intelligent and failing miserably. Learn to say what you mean, make yourself clear, and then don't evade a good arguement by saying that it is not arguing what you meant to say. And shut up.

IAMBATMAN

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
?
Apprantly you are an idiot considering that you didn't even know what i said.
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

this is obviously pointless to your debate. The only use of this is to annoy and to fling insults.

Pointing out facts isn't pointless friend, you ARE the idiot.
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

You are proving with inappropriate language and blatant insults that i am the idiot. Fixed.
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

It is not speculation to say either, but it is speculation to compare him with vader and use that as a figure against malak.
But to even argue malak vs dooku in the first place is speculation alone pal, i am simply using your own logic against you and so, which canon source states dooku > malak? Go ahead pal.

Being a smartass does not work too well for you. Shut the hell up

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

There is also more to the force then just studying it. Yoda studied the force for 800 years and barely matched up to sideous's probable 60. Time does not equal power, as has been proven in "the most knowledgeable characters in the force" thread. How about dooku tooling a dark jedi with a flick of his finger? How about being stated to be one of the most powerful jedi and an even greater sith lord?

And idiot, i never said time = power, i merely implied time = mastery. I already made it clear that vaders power surpasses that of dooku. I merely brought out dookus force mastery ALONE and NOT his force power.

Being a smartass does not work too well for you. Shut the hell up
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

I know dooku has upwards of 70 years of training. Sideous is how old in rots? He probably had 60 years of training under his belt. But if dooku studied as long or more then sideous, why isn't he more powerful? stop this nonsence that you call common sense.
LOL common sense is nonsense? How stupid can you be? You are probably stupid as stupid can be. Ok, dooku had 70 years of training, but have you forgot that he had only 13 years of dark side training? And you are comparing him to sidious whom has even longer dark side training.

Being a smartass does not work too well for you. Shut the hell up
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

otential and is 80% of sideous. once again, find a way to link vader to tyranus, and I will understand. Force mastery alone? Dark side knowledge?
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

By my logic, tyranus would be MORE powerful then vader. Vader has never shown lightning on dooku's scale (much less any lightning at all) However, this is extremely difficult to prove. And i fail to see how this has any relevance pal.
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

if every meaning i grasp at from your comment is a misunderstanding of what you were trying to imply, don't imply. Restate, right now, EXACTLY and BLATANTLY what you meant to say. I dont have to, just learn to read.
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

omg. You know I meant force master alone when I said that. you are trying to sound intelligent and failing miserably. Learn to say what you mean, make yourself clear, and then don't evade a good arguement by saying that it is not arguing what you meant to say. And shut up. Shut up? Why should i shut up when you initiated the whole debate thinking you are so smart? The thing is i AM intelligent(and much more intelligent than you) seeing the fact that you yourself cant even SPELL properly and has extremely poor grammer skills and behaves like a TWELVE YEAR OLD kid

Lord Knightfa11

Originally posted by IAMBATMAN
Apprantly you are an idiot considering that you didn't even know what i said.
It doesn't make any sense.

Mr. Intelligent and mature. So how old are you to have thought that up? 4?

As I have said, you have yet to prove/disprove anything as far as Dooku does or does not equal Vader in force mastery.
It's not working so hot for you.
substantiate buddy, substantiate, And i know the quote that called him the greatest student .

At this point you have nothing left to argue so you are arguing meaningless word comparisons and flinging juvenile insults. If mastery does not effect power, then how does mastery help him at all?

bashing.

bashing.

Not, I, but you are, in your arguement that since sideous could take malak easily, then dooku would be able to. I grow tired of your unsubstantiated argument.

Prove it. Prove to me that dooku is equal to Vader in force mastery and I will concede.

It is because you fail to see at all. This has relevance because dooku is greater than Vader in sheer force mastery.

Yes, you do. If i obviously am not understanding what you are trying to say and prove, then I obviously can't debate it. The reason you don't say exactly what you mean right now is because I have already disproved it.
This is coming from the man who spelled "Grammar" incorrectly when lecturing me about my spelling. Let me see. The parts that I have put in bold in the above quote are the parts where you made grammar mistakes. Oh, and the whole last sentence was a run on.
Here is the above quote written correctly.

IAMBATMAN

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
It doesn't make any sense.

1) Because you lack common sense
2) Because you just don't have the capabilities to think.
3)Being a smartass does not work too well for you. Shut the hell up

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

Mr. Intelligent and mature. So how old are you to have thought that up? 4? Correction. A 4 year old would hardly even know how to log on to a website. Try again smartass.

Being a smartass does not work too well for you. Shut the hell up

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

As I have said, you have yet to prove/disprove anything as far as Dooku does or does not equal Vader in force mastery.
Common sense friend common sense. Dooku has studied the lightside far longer than vader and the fact that he has broad dark side knowledge? How about wtf pwning a formidable dark jedi by lifting his finger?

Being a smartass does not work too well for you. Shut the hell up

How about mind raping a KRAYT DRAGON? How about being able to rip valuable information out of his opponents mind? Go toe to toe with YODA?

Being a smartass does not work too well for you. Shut the hell up

Again quit being stupid, i am talking about force mastery. If you do something over and over again studying it time and again for a period of years let alone decades, you simply become more proficient and better at it.

Being a smartass does not work too well for you. Shut the hell up

Its simple, its common sense pal and the fact that you fail to understand that proves you are the peak of human stupidity.

So seeing that dooku has studied the force longer than vader, it would be logical to assume that his mastery of the force is very broad.

Being a smartass does not work too well for you. Shut the hell up

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

It's not working so hot for you.
substantiate buddy, substantiate, And i know the quote that called him the greatest student . And the substantiation is the fact that he studied the force longer than vader thus having great control over the force.

And please don't lecture me about being so speculative when in the first place dooku vs malak is pure speculation.

Being a smartass does not work too well for you. Shut the hell up

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

At this point you have nothing left to argue so you are arguing meaningless word comparisons and flinging juvenile insults.
Its not an insult when its a fact son, the fact remains that you ARE an idiot. If dooku is not even close to vader in terms of mastery, then why the hell is he called an extremely formidable opponent? Why is he called a DARK LORD OF A SITH?

Hell even george lucas stated that vader was dookus SUCCESSOR.

Being a smartass does not work too well for you. Shut the hell up

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

If mastery does not effect power, then how does mastery help him at all?
I never said mastery does not effect power genuis. I merely stated vaders raw power exceeds dookus.

Mastery merely gives you more control over power.

Being a smartass does not work too well for you. Shut the hell up

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

bashing.
Fact

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

bashing.
Fact, If you think common sense is nonsense, it only shows how naive and idiotic you really are!.

Being a smartass does not work too well for you. Shut the hell up
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

Not, I, but you are, in your arguement that since sideous could take malak easily, then dooku would be able to. I grow tired of your unsubstantiated argument.
Quote me where i said the word "easily" genius.

I merely made the claim about dooku's force mastery rivaling vaders. I never implied or said easy.

Learn to read!

Being a smartass does not work too well for you. Shut the hell up
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

Prove it. Prove to me that dooku is equal to Vader in force mastery and I will concede. Just read properly and the answer is in front of your face. I said it many times already.
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

It is because you fail to see at all.
O rly? Just look at the crap you posted below!
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

This has relevance because dooku is greater than Vader in sheer force mastery. THATS MY WHOLE POINT! Why the stupidity???!?!?!?!?!one!!!!oneone11!one

Holy shit pal you just shot both your balls with one bullet.
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

Yes, you do. If i obviously am not understanding what you are trying to say and prove, then I obviously can't debate it. The reason you don't say exactly what you mean right now is because I have already disproved it.
This is coming from the man who spelled "Grammar" incorrectly when lecturing me about my spelling. Let me see. The parts that I have put in bold in the above quote are the parts where you made grammar mistakes. Oh, and the whole last sentence was a run on.
Here is the above quote written correctly. Just shut up and look at YOUR OWN SENTENCE above this.

You just OWNED yourself.

Sidi-Boy

Err... Ivalice, Knightfall, would you mind telling me what you two are actually debating about? It's actually fairly difficult for me to see that as you both seem to agree that Dooku takes on Malak.

But anyways, Knightfall, once again, the whole "Dooku is 80% of Sidious" stuff doesn't work, because there are many sorts of strengths. For example, a guy with uber force skills but shitty saber skills may be 80% of Sidious' power, but will get curbstomped by Malak in a duel while Malak is probably NOT 80% of Sidious' power. In addition, ONLY Sidious' mastery of the force is relevant to this debate, as Sidious never taught Dooku anything about swordsmanship. That 80% stuff does not necessarily apply to skills with a saber. You're very much correct about saying that Sidious owns Malak with a blade so Dooku does too, it's simply rather stupid.

Anyways, according to NG- who is very much canon- Sidious is a level 9 swordsman while Dooku is most definetly an 8 (Obi-Wan was mentioned as an 8, and Sidious/Anakin/Mace/Yoda are the only 9's. Obiviously, Dooku is an 8 unless you think he's Obi-Wan's inferior with a blade), so they are at least somewhat close.

HOWEVER, Ivalice is also very much correct about Dooku exceeding Vader in terms of overall force mastery. While Vader is likely Dooku's superior in terms of dark side knowledge, Dooku is far more experienced and is capable of harnessing Sidious' signature attack, namely force lightning, something Vader cannot do. While Vader's raw power is probably higher, Dooku's mastery and technical skill in the usage of the force is definetly superior.

Lord Knightfa11

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
?
By my logic, tyranus would be MORE powerful then vader. Vader has never shown lightning on dooku's scale (much less any lightning at all) However, this is extremely difficult to prove.

This is what I said. Of course I meant force mastery, and not power. LOL. What Ivalice is trying to prove is that dooku>vader in force mastery by saying he has studied far longer then him. By this logic, Since yoda studied for 800 years, he should have more force mastery then sideous, which is a falacy.

So... unless he proves how dooku is as good as vader, he is as good as cooked, stating the same arguement over and over and over and over.

Ivalice: "He studied more, you fu-king idiot"
Me: "That doesnt necessarily represent force mastery."

At this point, I think we are arguing for the heck of it. Happy Dance

IAMBATMAN

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
This is what I said. Of course I meant force mastery, and not power. LOL. What Ivalice is trying to prove is that dooku>vader in force mastery by saying he has studied far longer then him. By this logic, Since yoda studied for 800 years, he should have more force mastery then sideous, which is a falacy.

So... unless he proves how dooku is as good as vader, he is as good as cooked, stating the same arguement over and over and over and over.

Ivalice: "He studied more, you fu-king idiot"
Me: "That doesnt necessarily represent force mastery."

At this point, I think we are arguing for the heck of it. Happy Dance

Fine, knightfall i do apologise if i lost my temper arguing with you. I really am sorry but i think that getting heated over a hypothetical debate is stupid.

Firstly i never said dooku > vader, i said his force mastery is close to his and i already stated earlier that vaders sheer power surpasses that of dooku.

I only meant dooku is close to vader in sheer force mastery which is what you just said earlier.