Master Malygos Vs. Lich King

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Becci
I know how some of you think so highly about Lich King. I know that those of you familiar with the lore of Warcraft know Lich King as referred to one of the most powerful beings on Azeroth currently. I believe Malygos is THE most powerful and Lich King somewhere beneath him.

Who would win, do you think?


http://images.wikia.com/wowwiki/images/a/a5/Malygos.jpg

Vs.

http://images.wikia.com/wowwiki/images/a/a2/Lich_King_by_Raneman.jpg

Burning thought
hail to the king baby

Becci
Originally posted by Burning thought
hail to the king baby

Is that a "Lich King wins" post? stick out tongue

Burning thought
yes i think the King wins, from what assumptions anyone can bring up from the little scraps of information on the guy i think he will be way above Malygos

I dont know exactley but isnt he maddened down in Northrend thanks to Lich King?

Becci
Way above Malygos? That is a very bold statement. Care to elaborate how Lich King is far above the lord of magic?

He has not gone mad by Lich King in the expansion. He finally snapped, that is all. He has been on the edge of complete madness since loooooong before Lich King's time.

Utrigita
Malygos.

Becci
Lich King MAY be Aspect level. Even though he may be so, he is not Malygos level wink

Utrigita
True.

Burning thought
we will see soon enough

Becci
We already know, we will just get it verified soon.

Burning thought
show us the information that says Malygos>LK?

Becci
The point where he was blessed to control all magic. Lich King would have to take him down physically, but he would be frozen before he got a chance.

Burning thought
theres nowhere that says Malygos can control all magic.......ive not seen this information, if so Archimonde could be solod as well as the rest of the Burning legion by Malygos, which is not true, the guy simply has various tricks against magic users like breathing on them to make them forget their spells....

http://www.wowwiki.com/Malygos

also if this is anything to go by, it says he rivals the power of a Demi God, wheras the Lich King is often stated as one, so they are on the same power level it would seem also.

Malygos would fail

Becci
Yes, Malygos could solo a majority of the forces Burning Legion would send at him. Archimonde? No, because he could physically defeat Malygos. He does not need his magic.

Burning thought
hell poor Kiljaeden, thats apprently his main expertise....he would get throttled

but no, nothing states this, he is simply the Guardian of magic, no amount of overhyping will put him above and he has a nice frost breath that makes casters forget spells

Utrigita
Background information page 91 & 92 in S&L

Becci
Originally posted by Burning thought
hell poor Kiljaeden, thats apprently his main expertise....he would get throttled

but no, nothing states this, he is simply the Guardian of magic, no amount of overhyping will put him above and he has a nice frost breath that makes casters forget spells

Yes, unless Kil'Jaeden has the physical capabilities of Archimonde, which he by all sense should.

He is not simply the guardian. He was capable of completely removing and controling opponents magic in the war of the ancients. He was capable of making himself the only one manifesting magical abilities. He can even use enemy spells against themselves.

Malygos magical powers are more than simple "guardianship". Weak blue dragons can completely silence a field from magic and use even advanced magical abilities. Not even a hundred blue flights could match Malygos might.

Dark-Jaxx
I love how people can draw conclusions about a character we know virtually nothing about.

Becci
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
I love how people can draw conclusions about a character we know virtually nothing about.

Are you talking about Malygos? Because we have fact with him

If you are talking about Lich King, we have fact wit him as well:

- Fact: Lich King has been by official and reliable Blizzard sources been stated to be one of the most powerful beings on Azeroth currently.
- Fact: Lich King is limited to the powers of a Lich. This grants him death, frost and shadow magic.
- Fact: Lich King is a highly intellectual entity. Only Velen and Kil'Jaeden would be above his intellectual level from what we know so far (Not including Titans)
- Fact: Ner'Zhul lost all of his shaman powers when the spirits abandoned him. Arthas lost all his Paladin powers when the corruption of Frostmourne was complete.
- Fact: Lich King is magical. Malygos is the supreme Azerothian power in magic. In all of existance, only Titans can match him.

Burning thought
these are not facts, these are as Jax said, conlusions you have made yourself

I an find an official source saying he is one of the most powerufl in the entire warcraft universe

nothing says he is limited to the powers of a lich, you made that one up

your the one rating here again he could be above or below any of the entities you just listed

nothing says that either, Malygos is just listed as extremely powerful magic user and guardian of magic, nothing about him being the most powerful on Azeroth from what ive read, if you have read an extension to what we know, then post the proof, not your opinions.

and yes Utrigos, ive read that several times before making my conclusions as well, Phenominal power over magic does not translate exactley to me as "most powerful magic user on Azeroth that would douche any other", Lich King has "unfathomable" power under his belt that sounds more impressive, does that mean he>>Malygos whos power is fathomable as phenomenal.

Becci
Alright then. Fair enough. Give me one reason why Lich King would have more than just Lich powers. Kil'Jaeden blessed him with the power of Necromancy, and no matter how much his mind expanded he can not expand beyond what he is limited to.

One blessed with fire magic can not shoot beams of water.
One blessed with holy magic can not shoot beams of darkness.


Since Lich King has never been blessed in any other way than the arts of a Lich/Necromancy, I woul LOVE to hear you explain how he could have other powers.

Burning thought
I dont have to give you a reason, you have to give me one, thats the fallacy your making, the burdon of proof is on you, if your simply breaking things down its not a fact since we dont actually know, also show me where it says Kiljaeden only blesses him with Necromancy, all ive read is that he became a being of unfathomable power with expanded mind, for all we know his expanded mind alone could give him 101 diffrent powers branching from what Kilajeden gave him simply because he has more conciousness of how to use them

Becci
You do not have to give me a reason? You make claims that go against logic. Of course you have to prove your claims.

Utrigita
Originally posted by Burning thought
and yes Utrigos, ive read that several times before making my conclusions as well, Phenominal power over magic does not translate exactley to me as "most powerful magic user on Azeroth that would douche any other", Lich King has "unfathomable" power under his belt that sounds more impressive, does that mean he>>Malygos whos power is fathomable as phenomenal.

Source that describes the level of magic the Lich King command as "unfathomable".

Becci
Unfathomable can be looked at in a large varity of ways. Kil'Jaedens powers are referred to as unlimited and unimaginable by official sources. That does not mean he is beyond omnipotent.

Just because Lich King has "unfathomable powers" does not mean he can use it to its full extent. He has after all only had it for only a few years. Malgyos have had his complete control over magic since the birth of Azeroth.

Burning thought
Originally posted by Becci
You do not have to give me a reason? You make claims that go against logic. Of course you have to prove your claims.

No i dont, you claim simply because Malygos is the guardian of magic he is some being of complete control over every magic when he has not shown such, you make claims such as just because his flight can do things he has to be millions times greater and other such nonsense, he may be greater but not by necesserily by much.

Also as i said, your the one making the "logic" comment, apprently it says somewhere Kilajeden gave the Lich King necromancy powers, please show me where it says this?

you claim a lot of things as fact when they are not, you need to back up all those things you claimed as fact.



Originally posted by Utrigita
Source that describes the level of magic the Lich King command as "unfathomable".

I said it says LK has unfathomable power, not magic

whether he is using magic or not for his unfathomable power is neither here nor there. But according to Becci this "unfathomable" power is merely and factually limited to Frost and necromacy...i would like to see this proof for this fact smile .



Originally posted by Becci
Unfathomable can be looked at in a large varity of ways. Kil'Jaedens powers are referred to as unlimited and unimaginable by official sources. That does not mean he is beyond omnipotent.

Just because Lich King has "unfathomable powers" does not mean he can use it to its full extent. He has after all only had it for only a few years. Malgyos have had his complete control over magic since the birth of Azeroth.

Although his 10k conciousness means he is concious of things most beings in Azeroth if not all are even capable of seeing or understanding, simply because their conciousness cannot. He could likely do things with his powers Maylgos wouldnt be able to think of.

Utrigita
Originally posted by Burning thought
I said it says LK has unfathomable power, not magic

whether he is using magic or not for his unfathomable power is neither here nor there. But according to Becci this "unfathomable" power is merely and factually limited to Frost and necromacy...i would like to see this proof for this fact smile .

Then show me where it stats that, also that can be understood in a lot of ways to have unfathomable power... Where having Phenominal Magic cannot.

Can you present proof to the contrary BT that his magical abilities extent that of Necromancy, Black Magic and Frost? Because that is all his servants who has gained there power directly from him has shown so far, I could bring forth his mind abilities but then again they are under the combat section in MoM and since you don't like using that well...

Becci
Originally posted by Burning thought
I said it says LK has unfathomable power, not magic

whether he is using magic or not for his unfathomable power is neither here nor there. But according to Becci this "unfathomable" power is merely and factually limited to Frost and necromacy...i would like to see this proof for this fact smile

First of all: Lich King is either magical or physicall, which are basically the only two schools that exist. Since shadow blasts and mind abilities are not physical, they are magical.

Second of all: No Lich in the history of Warcraft has ever used anything else than Necromancy, Shadow and Frost magic.

Third of all:
Manual of Monsters, page 142

Becci
Originally posted by Utrigita
Can you present proof to the contrary BT that his magical abilities extent that of Necromancy, Black Magic and Frost?

He cant, because that is all Lich King is indicated to manifest.There is no trace of any other type of magic involved with the Lich King. He also can not prove this, since no Lich in the history of Warcraft has used any other abilities than frost, death and shadow magic.

Burning thought
Originally posted by Utrigita
Then show me where it stats that, also that can be understood in a lot of ways to have unfathomable power... Where having Phenominal Magic cannot.

Can you present proof to the contrary BT that his magical abilities extent that of Necromancy, Black Magic and Frost? Because that is all his servants who has gained there power directly from him has shown so far, I could bring forth his mind abilities but then again they are under the combat section in MoM and since you don't like using that well...



from: http://www.wowwiki.com/Lich_king#Birth_of_the_Lich_King

also:

http://www.wow-europe.com/en/info/story/chapter4.html#25



Ive still yet to see Kiljaeden only gave him Necromancy....hmm maybe Becci was wrong like i thought she was...

I dont have to, as everyone says, its not my place to prove anything, its Beccis place to prove he had only Lich powers or Necromancy because that was her statement. Thats like me saying Kain is omnipotent, then asking you to prove he is not......which ofc is rubbish.



Originally posted by Becci
First of all: Lich King is either magical or physicall, which are basically the only two schools that exist. Since shadow blasts and mind abilities are not physical, they are magical.

Second of all: No Lich in the history of Warcraft has ever used anything else than Necromancy, Shadow and Frost magic.

Third of all:
Manual of Monsters, page 142

They gain their power from LK and Kiljaeden, that doesnt mean Kiljaeden can only use Frost and Shadow magic just because he created the Lich King now? according to the logic of your Manuel of monsters nonsense it does.....now please cough up some real proof of Lich King ONLY having Necromancy and frost powers

wow thats important, you gave me a piece from Manual of mosnters stating what powers LK gave to his Liches...great....

Utrigita
Originally posted by Burning thought
from: http://www.wowwiki.com/Lich_king#Birth_of_the_Lich_King

also:

http://www.wow-europe.com/en/info/story/chapter4.html#25


So we can now use WoWWiki as proof? Great.

I found it a little while ago, yet what you seem to forget is that prior he had just had his Consciouness expanded 10.000 times so I wonder what this being with the unfathomable power had most power of... Because it says nothing about the Lich Kings magical Abilities being amplified, there would be no need for that since that wasn't Kil'Jaedens plan with him, the Lich King was simply to pave the way for the Legion with a undead army controlled by a Iron Will.

BT btw what is real proof in your opinion?

btw btw, have you ever seen any of the Lich Kings units using anything besides Black Magic, Necromancy and Frost?

Becci
Originally posted by Burning thought
They gain their power from LK and Kiljaeden, that doesnt mean Kiljaeden can only use Frost and Shadow magic just because he created the Lich King now? according to the logic of your Manuel of monsters nonsense it does.....now please cough up some real proof of Lich King ONLY having Necromancy and frost powers

wow thats important, you gave me a piece from Manual of mosnters stating what powers LK gave to his Liches...great....

There is one tiny problem with your awesome argument.

Kil'Jaeden was not blessed with necromancy. He was blessed with unlimited, unimaginable magical powers. Kil'Jaeden has been seen using other abilities than frost and shadow magic, while Lich King has shown not one single indication that would make him even a candidate for other schools of magic than shadow and frost.

I want to know what exactly you base your points on, when you say he has more than shadow and frost magic.

Burning thought
Originally posted by Becci
There is one tiny problem with your awesome argument.

Kil'Jaeden was not blessed with necromancy. He was blessed with unlimited, unimaginable magical powers. Kil'Jaeden has been seen using other abilities than frost and shadow magic, while Lich King has shown not one single indication that would make him even a candidate for other schools of magic than shadow and frost.

I want to know what exactly you base your points on, when you say he has more than shadow and frost magic.

I said you keep saying LK was blessed with Necromancy by Kiljaeden which is not said, it just says unfathomable power. He has not actually used any forms of magic, he has simply used mind powers thus far.

simply because nothing states they can only use Shadow or frost, your assuming, then you call it fact, simple....because its not fact, nothing says they do ONLY have that, especially the LK himself who has not actually used any attacks yet.

Originally posted by Utrigita
So we can now use WoWWiki as proof? Great.

I found it a little while ago, yet what you seem to forget is that prior he had just had his Consciouness expanded 10.000 times so I wonder what this being with the unfathomable power had most power of... Because it says nothing about the Lich Kings magical Abilities being amplified, there would be no need for that since that wasn't Kil'Jaedens plan with him, the Lich King was simply to pave the way for the Legion with a undead army controlled by a Iron Will.

BT btw what is real proof in your opinion?

btw btw, have you ever seen any of the Lich Kings units using anything besides Black Magic, Necromancy and Frost?

We always could....its a good source of info..when it cannot be disproven by a better source, like the games themselves.

Who says Kiljaeden planned on making the LK unfathomably powerful? who cares on Kiljaedens plans, he didnt plan on LK getting out either so his plans are neither here nor there.

Real proof is an actual official source of info, perhaps even a WoWwiki article to state what someone is saying, just like ive just proven to you it does say Unfathomable power, neither of you guys have backed any of your sayings with official proof stating the guy only has Shadow/frost powers.

Well actually dont skeletal mages fire balls of fire? also Obsidian statues and destroyers i think their called have several fairly arcane attacks, such as devouring magic and buffs (Absorb Mana/Devour magic), restorative powers through mana and health amplifiers. These all seem along the lines of Restorative magic, Arcane and balls of fire from the skeletal mage are elemental.

Skeleton mage- http://www.battle.net/war3/undead/units/skeletalmage.shtml

Destroyer- http://www.battle.net/war3/undead/units/destroyer.shtml

Statue- http://www.battle.net/war3/undead/units/obsidianstatue.shtml

but this is all irrelevent because simply because a beings minions use various powers does not mean their master does have the same powers and abilities. Your also forgetting Warlock magics encumpass elemental powers and curses which sum up to a long line of powers from cripple and slowing to rotting and damaging and even slowing/weakening spells. Heigan the unclean can also create Earth magic in the form of eruptions. You guys forget that Lich King has hundreds of beings under his control, all of them connected to his expanded 10k conciousness, his minions are not all Frost, Shadow and such.

Utrigita
Funny because I remembering you say something different in another thread but nevermind.

He Planned on making the Lich King powerful, it directly stats that the Lich King was warped by the Demons powers, and that Demon would be Kil'Jaeden he required a single mind in the preparation for the arrival by the Legion so that the last incident wouldn't repeat itself.

You just said WoWwiki was reliable but now you are lowering it's crediability... Actually we have, the Shamans that was with the Lich King was as stated by the quote provided by Becci warped by Kil'Jaeden and his demons into Liches http://www.wowwiki.com/Lich ( <- more detailed here) They however only had necromantic powers, the Lich King them granted them frost too those are the only spells that the Liches who where warped with the Lich King gained, Now would you mind showing me anything that shows that the Lich King has anything beyond Black Magic, Necromancy and Frost magic?

Absorbing and devouring magic is black magic that is what the Statues and the Destroyers command. Balls of fire from a skeleton mage do you even know the story they have in lore? http://www.wowwiki.com/Skeletal_mage guess not....

Warlock magic can be label in two versions (that no living warlock serves the Lich King is another thing) Either Demonic ore as Black Magic. The Cripple is cast by the Necromancer.... Yep hundreds of UNDEAD beings under his control. This is a Statement made by you I would like you to show that not all his minions command either Frost Shadow and such...

Burning thought
hm i dont.

yes warped by the demons powers, but to what ends? it doesnt say whether all the warping of Kiljaedens power gave him necromacny, the increased conciousness or whether some of these were aftereffects, who knows if Kiljaeden even had any idea on the full scope of power he was giving LK, he may have known he was giving him power to control the undead forces and enough power for the job he was giving him but nothing exact was stated.

Is there anything official that states everything in RPG is canon with everything else? hell in the games those mages are summoned by Necromancers as it says, so w/e if the RPG is really canon fair enough.

Ime not saying theres definatley more than just Black,shadow, void and Frost, ime saying you guys cannot say theres definaltey
not either for the Lich King when he has not even come to battle properly yet.

I find it highly unlikely that he gains any of the "unfathamoble power", "one of most powerful Warcraft universe/Azeroth" titles etc just because he has Necromacy or frost powers.

But as i said, there are many many units and characters under the LK command who have elemental, arcane etc etc powers.

Utrigita
*rubs temples* maybe not...

Let me see Kil'Jaeden didn't trust the Lich King then why should he give him any more powers then what was absolutely required for the Lich King to accomplishe the task at hand. I believe Kil'Jaeden had full knowlegde of what he was doing else he wouldn't have done it using his own personal power to accomplishe the task.

Again that is what they are in the game however in WoW you are battling Skeleton Mages that are independent (to a larger ore smaller degree) and they haven't been summoned by a Necromancer. I will happily state again Blizzard is the publisher, I have encountered so far, that have shown the smallest interest in there Lore/Canon.

And Neither can you. However I have no reason to Believe I will see a Fireball ore a lightning spark from the Lich King, Because I have seen nothing but Shadow/Necromancy and Frost spells from Kel'Thuzad the second most powerful undead in existance. http://www.wowwiki.com/Kel%27Thuzad_%28tactics%29

No I think he got it because his mind was warped, to control a army of undead that only goes one way in the count and that is up, that is what can be seen as unfathomable power having a army that cannot be defeated by mortal enemies ruled by a Iron Will, and one can say that if he command those two schools (black magic most certainly) he can most certainly be very very devastating in a battle.

A example would be nice BT.

Burning thought
Originally posted by Utrigita
*rubs temples* maybe not...

Let me see Kil'Jaeden didn't trust the Lich King then why should he give him any more powers then what was absolutely required for the Lich King to accomplishe the task at hand. I believe Kil'Jaeden had full knowlegde of what he was doing else he wouldn't have done it using his own personal power to accomplishe the task.

Again that is what they are in the game however in WoW you are battling Skeleton Mages that are independent (to a larger ore smaller degree) and they haven't been summoned by a Necromancer. I will happily state again Blizzard is the publisher, I have encountered so far, that have shown the smallest interest in there Lore/Canon.

And Neither can you. However I have no reason to Believe I will see a Fireball ore a lightning spark from the Lich King, Because I have seen nothing but Shadow/Necromancy and Frost spells from Kel'Thuzad the second most powerful undead in existance. http://www.wowwiki.com/Kel%27Thuzad_%28tactics%29

No I think he got it because his mind was warped, to control a army of undead that only goes one way in the count and that is up, that is what can be seen as unfathomable power having a army that cannot be defeated by mortal enemies ruled by a Iron Will, and one can say that if he command those two schools (black magic most certainly) he can most certainly be very very devastating in a battle.

A example would be nice BT.

No i dont think so, I think he had a fair idea and of what purpose he wanted this powerful creation to do, but he was not 100% sure, thats why he had to keep LK inside the crystal, thats why he does not want LK released, if he knew LK power and all the LK had was an undead army he wouldnt even be a concern to Kiljaeden and he wouldnt care about having LK too well encased.

Well still, their the publisher but we cannot be 100% sure its canon, since not everything published by the same company is correct together, also those mages were under Lich King control or Kelthuzard soldiers were they not? (ime thinking of the plague lands mages), their all the scourge apart from the Forsaken.

No i cannot, very true, that means my point is correct, neither one of us nor Blessing can state it as fact LK is definaltey not going to be able to use other spell types, i mean I can see him dishing out Arcane powers, beams of white/blue energy, orbs, his power does not definaltey have to be centered around his minons, where some of them DO have elemental powers anyway, i think its going too far to say he definaltey as Fact cannot go beyond those.

As i said before thats not really unfathomable, mainly because you just said it, you shouldnt be able to Fathom it stick out tongue but that is not really impressive looking at the full scale of things, thats not unfathomable power, Necromancers have a group of undead they can send forth, thats not too greater power that you would get from Unfathomable imo, his mind is prob more unfathomable alone. The mind of LK and his units are incredible, i mean the first guy i post below can flay minds and dont forget curses, they can do almost anything worthwhile.

Check through Naxxramas units here:

http://www.wowwiki.com/Heigan_the_Unclean- this guy makes the ground burst (Earth magic) in eruption

http://www.wowwiki.com/Gothik_the_Harvester-this one summons spectoral trainees who can arcane explosion

http://www.wowwiki.com/Four_Horsemen- Meteors, HOLY magic, even more non shadow/frost powers

several examples in just Naxxramas alone.

Becci
Several examples, but none of them which indicate Lich King knows anything more than shadow, frost and death magic. Just because he bring people back form the dead, does not mean that they unlearn all their powers and gain his. Many, unless holy, keep their powers when brought back.


- The four horsemen kept their powers from before corruption. It was not Lich King's blessing that granted them their powers. The HOLY magic, which you capitalized so fancy is dealt by Sir Zeliek. If you had done your studies right, you would know that he is not even corrupted. He is plainly controled physically. His mind and spirit is as free as the birds in the sky. The HOLY magic is that of a very well trained paladin.

- Gothik summon them yes, but that can simply mean that he know arcane magic. This does not mean Lich King does. Gothik probably knew it before he died and was brought back.

- Heigan same as the other ones, could have known this before he died and was brought back as well.

Burning thought
I was proving that Lich King has many minions who know many powers

I could simply thrown your arguments around and say just because many minions only known Ice/shadow or from his power does not mean HE only knows it, this can be double standard.

You were wrong,it is not fact Lich King only knows Frost/shadow, simply assumption.

Becci
You are right, it is not solid fact. It is based on logic though, as no Lich has ever used any other than mentioned schools of magic and nor have Lich King shown any indication to be anything else than a powerful Lich. That, and the Manual of Monsters state clearly what powers a Lich manifest.

I would also like to add that even if he is limited to the powers mentioned, his level can still be "unfathomable"

Burning thought
lol you keep talking as if the LK is just some "more powerful" Lich....he is far more than just some "more powerful" lich lol......technically in a way he is not a Lich at all, he is simply named the Lich King but hes nothing like any of the other liches, he is mostly all spectoral entity and he takes host in the body of a living being (well sorta living) which other Liches dont do, their animated.

his 10k mind alone gives him heads up on all other Liches, no other Lich is stated as being unfathomably powerful and one of the most powerful beings in Warcraft unvierse

but anyway this is irrelevent, he will blow Malygos out of the air with a Lich King sized shadowbolt stick out tongue

Becci
Lich = Necromancer
Lich King = Necromancer

Becci
And the chances that he is able to finish Malygos in one attack (magic at that) is zero wink

The chances of him winning is about the same.

Burning thought
lol dream on, Malygos would end up becoming an Aspect dragon steak recipe, LK will eat it, then at the end of WOTLK when he is defeated he will cough it up as the reward....

And a Lich isnt just a Necromancer, otherwise Necromancers ascending to such a level as Mage skeleton according to RPG books and THEN Lichdom would be rather pointless.

Malygos would just get mind raped before he even got close

Becci
As amazing a dinner that would be...... No stick out tongue


Liches are necromancers. Necromancers are not liches. Do not confuse the two.

Mind raped? The only Azerothian entity hat we know who would be able to get inside Malygos head is Ysera. What makes you think Lich King is capable of getting inside it, and if he does, what do you think he possibly could do? Mind attacks are magical. They are as ineffective against him as a physical blow is against Archimonde.

Burning thought
Necromancers ascend to become liches which is what ime saying, if Liches were merely Necromancers, there would be no point.

what? where does it say mind attacks are magical? thats not true at all in logic, their simply mind psychic attacks, not magic.....

Lich King imo>>Ysera mind, at his weakest inside the throne losing his power he is controlling with ease countless undead soldiers, his conciousness is incredible, Ysera is no match.

Becci
Mind attacks are magical in the Warcraft universe. As good as everything in Warcraft is magical. Even the four elements are magical. Mind attacks are as magical as shadow attacks.

And just because Lich King can control thousands of skeletons with ease, does not mean his mind > > Ysera's. Ysera was able to break Deathwing's mind when he had the Demon Soul. Just because Lich King control quantity of soldiers with his mind, does not mean Lich King's quality > > Ysera's.

Utrigita

Burning thought

Becci
Originally posted by Burning thought
Gettng into Neltharians mind is not that impressive, why is that possibly impressive? that doesnt show high quality and please show me where it states mind powers are magical......

How about in WoW? All mind attacks are referred to as magical.

Utrigita
That he didn't counted on correct, No he was careful because he couldn't afford to fail in weakening Azeroth once again (I have no idea why this is the case but it is)

Again that is background information and additionelly Blizzard linkes to the various RPG books as additionel source of info along with the novels. (will look for the link) Is that good enough?

His mind is the most powerful type of attack he has, because it was that which expanded 10.000 times.

When he gains Frostmourne in the cutscene he says something about "I call to the spirit of this place I will blah blah pay any price if it will help me save my homeland" Yes it does (BECCI WASN'T IT RISE OF THE HORDE?) He doesn't get Kil'Jaedens powers, Kil'Jaeden Uses his power to change him into the being that he is, but please if you can show me where it stats that the Lich King gains Kil'Jaedens power then please by all means. Which he has only done one time so far, taken over a soul and that was when he merged with DK Arthas



http://www.wowwiki.com/Frostmourne

He can try all the want to link to the Spirits (who abandoned him twice because of what he became first a Warlock then a Undead) ore the holy powers (which is used to destroy undead beings erm ) I don't see why he wouldn't only use Shadow Ice and Necromancy along with the mind as ranged attacks. If it wasn't for the fact that Kil'Jaeden strips Ner'Zhuls power from him when he tried to betray the Legion, just like the link you linked to says.

Yeah a shamans magical power expanding hurra, yet that basically contradicts all the other sources on the site about the Lich King which stats that his Conscioness was expanded 10.000 but okay we will use it, because again it doesn't say anything about him having more then Black magic Necromancy and Frost smile

Becci
Yes, it word by word in Rise of the Horde stated that the spirits abandoned Ner'Zhul and it followed the story about how they did so. It detailed described how his powers faded until the point where he no longer manifested shaman powers.

I would direct you to specific pages, but that would be pretty many pages. Almost half the book is about Ner'Zhul and how the spirits abandon him.

In addition, yes, Kil'Jaeden erased Ner'Zhuls powers for his (second) betrayal. He took every single bit of hope away from Ner'Zhul, stripping him completely of power. He then left him as a spirit with necromancy powers in Azeroth, so that he would control the undead forces in service of the Burning Legion.

Burning thought
Originally posted by Utrigita
That he didn't counted on correct, No he was careful because he couldn't afford to fail in weakening Azeroth once again (I have no idea why this is the case but it is)

Again that is background information and additionelly Blizzard linkes to the various RPG books as additionel source of info along with the novels. (will look for the link) Is that good enough?

His mind is the most powerful type of attack he has, because it was that which expanded 10.000 times.

When he gains Frostmourne in the cutscene he says something about "I call to the spirit of this place I will blah blah pay any price if it will help me save my homeland" Yes it does (BECCI WASN'T IT RISE OF THE HORDE?) He doesn't get Kil'Jaedens powers, Kil'Jaeden Uses his power to change him into the being that he is, but please if you can show me where it stats that the Lich King gains Kil'Jaedens power then please by all means. Which he has only done one time so far, taken over a soul and that was when he merged with DK Arthas



http://www.wowwiki.com/Frostmourne

He can try all the want to link to the Spirits (who abandoned him twice because of what he became first a Warlock then a Undead) ore the holy powers (which is used to destroy undead beings erm ) I don't see why he wouldn't only use Shadow Ice and Necromancy along with the mind as ranged attacks. If it wasn't for the fact that Kil'Jaeden strips Ner'Zhuls power from him when he tried to betray the Legion, just like the link you linked to says.

Yeah a shamans magical power expanding hurra, yet that basically contradicts all the other sources on the site about the Lich King which stats that his Conscioness was expanded 10.000 but okay we will use it, because again it doesn't say anything about him having more then Black magic Necromancy and Frost smile

Can you show me where it says this please? That it was all about not failing at weakening Azeroth, sounds lame to me unless ofc Kiljaeden says it, in which case it sounds a likely a good wording for his type.

Meh, its good enough i guess to create a two track argument, one where its accepted as official lore and one where it is simply considered but not fact.

Well actually his conciousness was expanded 10k fold, what that gives him other than planetary awareness and the ability to control thousands of undead we will have to w8 and see, conciousness expanded by that much could end up giving you so many things.

That does not say anything about sacrificing holy powers.
Kiljaedens power warps Lich King into what he is, he almost is an emobdiment of Kiljaedens power used since thats what makes him. He is a product of kiljaedens power, therefore, it is only kiljaedens power that makes him unfathomable, therefore he is gaining Kiljaedens power.
It says every undead he takes is a soul he consumes for nourishment, Arthas is the only soul he has completly possessed.


Can you bold where it says Kiljaeden takes away Nerzhuels powers please.

it does not contradict anything, it simply adds to the amount of power Nerzhuel gains AND mentions the 10k expansion in the part where it says "mind powers and perception"

Originally posted by Becci
Yes, it word by word in Rise of the Horde stated that the spirits abandoned Ner'Zhul and it followed the story about how they did so. It detailed described how his powers faded until the point where he no longer manifested shaman powers.

I would direct you to specific pages, but that would be pretty many pages. Almost half the book is about Ner'Zhul and how the spirits abandon him.

In addition, yes, Kil'Jaeden erased Ner'Zhuls powers for his (second) betrayal. He took every single bit of hope away from Ner'Zhul, stripping him completely of power. He then left him as a spirit with necromancy powers in Azeroth, so that he would control the undead forces in service of the Burning Legion.

nothing says he leaves him as a spiritt with just Necromancy powers, your adding that bit in, dont add assumption with fact, also can you show me pelase where it says Kiljaeden erased the powers?

Burning thought
edit

Becci
Originally posted by Burning thought
nothing says he leaves him as a spiritt with just Necromancy powers, your adding that bit in, dont add assumption with fact, also can you show me pelase where it says Kiljaeden erased the powers?

By "nothing says", you as always mean that you personally have never read about it.

When Kil'Jaeden captured Ner'Zhul after his pathetic excuse of an escape, Kil'Jaeden broke all previous bonds with former powers of Ner'Zhul. The reason he did this, which was stated, was because he wanted to make sure that Ner'Zhul would serve Kil'Jaedens purpose and his purpose alone. He did not want Ner'Zhul to do things he was not intended to do, which was why he removed Ner'Zhul of his powers.

To Kil'Jaedens misscalculations, which you are very well aware of, the minor powers over undeath that Ner'Zhul had recieved increased over time vastly. Those are the powers of the Lich King. Going by what is known from lore, that is all he got. The powers of a Lich.

I do not quite recall where this was written, but Utrigita may know. I think it was in one of the following: The Last Guardian, Beyond the Dark Portal, although could have been Cycle of Hatered.

Burning thought
Well ofc ive not read it just like you and the old lore, if you can tell me the book, and the page and a confirmation from both of you that it says Kiljaeden directly blessed LK with Necromancy only, then ill consider it, until such an event, ill slander it and discredit it.

Pathetic excuse? he blew a planet in the process, it wasnt exactley pathetic even if he failed no matter how you try and doll it down, Kiljaedens pathetic plans fell flat on his face, now thats pathetic.

If it does say word by word Kiljaeden took away Nerzhuels old powers then ill w8 and see for that information as well.

The facts are as follows:

first Nerzhuel=Shaman then Warlock powers after meeting Kiljaeden first of all

Second Nerzhuel after Warlock powers, loses the spirits according to you guys, ill let you have that one, it sounds feasable.

Third, Nerzhuel betrays Kiljaeden who rips him apart after Nerzhuels attempted escape (now according to you he loses warlock powers, ime w8ting for good information on this please)

Nerzhuel is empowered by Kiljaedens power which could increase any manner of powers, i will want solid evidence in the form of a scan or at least several random sites that state limited Necromancy was all Lich King got from this which aprpently lead to him being a being of unfathomable power (which is where it falls flat and all feasability of him only gaining only meagre powers of undeath goes out the window)

Nothing states he has only the powers of a lich, nothing, show me this information, he is far more than just a Lich, a Lich does not have such mind capacity or conciousness, its unfeasable that an unfathomably powerful being only has minor powers over undeath.

Which is funny because if thats all it takes to be unfathomably powerful, then the aspects are likely useless creatures, ive not seen their statements of unfathomably powerful or anything alike to it, ofc ime merely mocking what your saying, its all BS and assumption with very low feasability.

Whats more likely Kiljaedens overloads the LK with power, which expands LK conciousness to such levels all his powers are bolstered anyway, hes far more than just a Lich.

Utrigita
http://www.wowwiki.com/Undead_History

A direct link to additionel information concerning lore directly from Blizzard own site is good enough for me.

Though nothing really indicats it.

No just giving everything up to pick up frostmourne, EVERYTHING which Arthas most surely did his soul and so on.

He didn't get Kil'Jaedens powers, it isn't like Galactus creating a Herald, Kil'Jaeden used his warlock magic to create the lichking nothing even remotely suggest that the Lich King having the Powers that Kil'Jaeden has at his disposal. But we can use your analogy if you like since that would place the Lich King below Kil'Jaeden.

And the Only soul which abilities he has gained.



And that isn't a contradiction so suddenly begin adding more power to a person then what the person have, when another quotes stats that nothing along that line happened.

Burning thought
Originally posted by Utrigita
A direct link to additionel information concerning lore directly from Blizzard own site is good enough for me.

Though nothing really indicats it.

No just giving everything up to pick up frostmourne, EVERYTHING which Arthas most surely did his soul and so on.

He didn't get Kil'Jaedens powers, it isn't like Galactus creating a Herald, Kil'Jaeden used his warlock magic to create the lichking nothing even remotely suggest that the Lich King having the Powers that Kil'Jaeden has at his disposal. But we can use your analogy if you like since that would place the Lich King below Kil'Jaeden.

And the Only soul which abilities he has gained.



And that isn't a contradiction so suddenly begin adding more power to a person then what the person have, when another quotes stats that nothing along that line happened.

please show me

Theres nothing about Holy powers, its just Arthas still, he gives up his life and people around him sure, but nothing about Holy powers, hell Lich King still has Arthas' soul, infact the only place Arthas' powers could have gone is into his soul which may be in the blade, therefore Lich King gains the power.

He has to have Kiljaedens power, since thats all that was used to make Lich King as powerful as he was, and no, weve debated this point earlier, although Kiljaedens power is limited onyl by his mind, nothing stops him putting more than he can understand into a creation, LK could easily simply be more powerful from the power and his expanded mind enabled him superiortiy over his creator.

Its only a contradiction if something says for example he only adds Necromancy, then another source states it wasnt Necromancy but Warlock power, that would be a contradiction, simply adding to it means its an expanded piece of information.

Utrigita
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/story/index.html

So you are suggesting that the Arthas with the Frostmourne is the same as the Arthas without the Frostmourne? He will pay any price which he does, he loses his soul becames a undead gains Black Magic where the hell is Holy magic, if a undead gained holy magic the entire idea disappears don't you think?

Well and the Crystal, and you please mind showing me where it stats that the Lich King gains Kil'Jaedens powers and isn't just warped by it? It would be extremely stupid (which Kil'Jaeden isn't) to put more power then you know yourself into a being that have betrayed you and that you doesn't trust a milimeter. Except that even with his expanded mind and power he was still below Archimonde, but again a never ending argument that can only end the day we have full knowlegde of both Characters, that comes from anywhere else then the RPG which you will not accept.

What is strange is that no books mentiones it, no other site mentions it, infact this is the first time I have ever encountered the description that the Lich King would have had his magical abilities enchanced too, but if Becci is correct and Mind is a magical attack then sure his magical abilities has been expanded.

Burning thought
Well I woudnt call the Lich King just any undead, he is simply a spectoral being inside a body, if he used Holy magic it wouldnt be a problem. And no, the Arthas with Frostmourne is a souless shell who may have forgotten Holy powers, but they havnt gone anywehre, you just get a new set of powers in the game but technically nothing takes them away, if their anywhere they would have to have gone in the sword with his soul.

Ime using logic ,it isnt stated, so ime using what you and Blessing like to use to see if you take kindly to it, if a being is only created by Kiljaedens power, then a lot of his power LK must have and use since that is the makup of his being now. Well sure he would, he has the reasurance of the being in question being in a frozen diomand casque and guarded by some of your strongest leutenants.

Mind can never be a magical attack.....magic and the mind are completly diffrent, you dont use magic every time you think, the very thought of thinking the mind is magical makes me sigh with desperation.

Utrigita
A spirit is a undead being. Except that Arthas is classified as a undead being. Proof to show that the holy powers haven't gone anywhere?

You are not using any kind of similar Logic here BT, what we are saying is that the Liches who gained there power from the Lich King (and was transformed along side with him) haven't showed anything besides Frost and Dark and Necromancy. Now the Lich King himself haven't shown any single feat that would implicate that he has obtained other powers from Kil'Jaeden then Necromancy and Black Magic after him being turned into the Lich King but by your logic then the Liches should have demonic powers as well since they where warped by Kil'Jaedens powers too, problem is they haven't then I have no reason to believe that 1. the Lich King would have gained more 2. That Kil'Jaeden should invest some of his own might in a servant he didn't trusted, where the Lich King trust his Liches.
And I don't get the last point of that post.

I haven't played WoW however if a mind attack is classified as a magical attack in WoW then you can disagree all you like and I with you it will still be a magical attack.

Becci
Originally posted by Burning thought
Mind can never be a magical attack.....magic and the mind are completly diffrent, you dont use magic every time you think, the very thought of thinking the mind is magical makes me sigh with desperation.

Thinking is not magical, but projecting your thoughts onto another target is magic. Just like a campfire would not be considered magical, while fire manipulation is considered magical.

Originally posted by Burning thought
And no, the Arthas with Frostmourne is a souless shell who may have forgotten Holy powers, but they havnt gone anywehre

Uh, yes they have. Away from him. Do you know anything? no expression Quit making things up that you have no clue about how they actually work.

Holy magic is like shaman magic. If the spirits abandon you, or in the holy case, if you abandon the light then your holy magic will disappear. You will not forget. The light will abandon you, like how spirits abandon a shaman.

Burning thought
Originally posted by Utrigita
A spirit is a undead being. Except that Arthas is classified as a undead being. Proof to show that the holy powers haven't gone anywhere?

You are not using any kind of similar Logic here BT, what we are saying is that the Liches who gained there power from the Lich King (and was transformed along side with him) haven't showed anything besides Frost and Dark and Necromancy. Now the Lich King himself haven't shown any single feat that would implicate that he has obtained other powers from Kil'Jaeden then Necromancy and Black Magic after him being turned into the Lich King but by your logic then the Liches should have demonic powers as well since they where warped by Kil'Jaedens powers too, problem is they haven't then I have no reason to believe that 1. the Lich King would have gained more 2. That Kil'Jaeden should invest some of his own might in a servant he didn't trusted, where the Lich King trust his Liches.
And I don't get the last point of that post.

I haven't played WoW however if a mind attack is classified as a magical attack in WoW then you can disagree all you like and I with you it will still be a magical attack.

What are you talking about holy powers havnt gone anywehre? your the one saying they have gone not me.

The Lich King gained more than the Liches, far more.....thats the problem with your logic ,Lich King gained so much more than they did, unless your telling me all Liches have 10k fold conciousness now? the Liches and Lich King are not the same beings.

Mind attacks are not magical at all, youve only got Shadow, nature, arcane, elemental (fire and frost), holy and I think thats it, no mind .

Originally posted by Becci
Thinking is not magical, but projecting your thoughts onto another target is magic. Just like a campfire would not be considered magical, while fire manipulation is considered magical.



Uh, yes they have. Away from him. Do you know anything? no expression Quit making things up that you have no clue about how they actually work.

Holy magic is like shaman magic. If the spirits abandon you, or in the holy case, if you abandon the light then your holy magic will disappear. You will not forget. The light will abandon you, like how spirits abandon a shaman.

Its not magic. if it was then your defeating your own point of "LK never got any magic powerup" that you said earlier. But its not magical.


Okie now show me this, i think your the one making stuff up and inventing things, holy magic disapearing if you abandon the light "sigh" show me or are you going to ignore this ask for proof like you do the rest, then invent something else in the future.

Utrigita
Originally posted by Burning thought
What are you talking about holy powers havnt gone anywehre? your the one saying they have gone not me.

The Lich King gained more than the Liches, far more.....thats the problem with your logic ,Lich King gained so much more than they did, unless your telling me all Liches have 10k fold conciousness now? the Liches and Lich King are not the same beings.

Mind attacks are not magical at all, youve only got Shadow, nature, arcane, elemental (fire and frost), holy and I think thats it, no mind .

Yes I am now I want you to show me that they haven't disappeared, which they imo have since Arthas haven't used them since and Arthas gave everything up at the location of Frostmourne, so it's very simple show me a statement that says that Arthas still have the holy powers at his disposal ore can learn them for that matter.

The Eredar was transformed alongside Kil'Jaeden yet they didn't gain anything near the boost in power Archimonde and him did, that the Liches was transformed along side the Lich King doesn't mean that the Lich King doesn't outclass them in the power department it doesn't mean however that they doesn't didn't gain the same spells as he did.

But a mindcontrol spell is label as a shadow spell and mind flay is too.

Burning thought
Originally posted by Utrigita
Yes I am now I want you to show me that they haven't disappeared, which they imo have since Arthas haven't used them since and Arthas gave everything up at the location of Frostmourne, so it's very simple show me a statement that says that Arthas still have the holy powers at his disposal ore can learn them for that matter.

The Eredar was transformed alongside Kil'Jaeden yet they didn't gain anything near the boost in power Archimonde and him did, that the Liches was transformed along side the Lich King doesn't mean that the Lich King doesn't outclass them in the power department it doesn't mean however that they doesn't didn't gain the same spells as he did.

But a mindcontrol spell is label as a shadow spell and mind flay is too.

Thats a negative, in a debate you dont ask that kind of question, you dont ask "show me proof its not true", you have to prove the statement they are gone, simple, imo tehy are not gone because Arthas couldnt intentially suddenly forget all his powers or toss them away, a mage could not wake up one morning and say I dont want to ever be able to cast this spell again and suddenly its gone.

Either way, theres no proof, or fact he did get teh same spells, he got more power, we know that, its not the same.

"shrug" blame WoW gameplay logic, not me, they need some way of trajectoring resistences, but honestly, mind pwoers are not magical in any fiction, they are in a area of their own

Utrigita
Originally posted by Burning thought
Thats a negative, in a debate you dont ask that kind of question, you dont ask "show me proof its not true", you have to prove the statement they are gone, simple, imo tehy are not gone because Arthas couldnt intentially suddenly forget all his powers or toss them away, a mage could not wake up one morning and say I dont want to ever be able to cast this spell again and suddenly its gone.

Either way, theres no proof, or fact he did get teh same spells, he got more power, we know that, its not the same.

"shrug" blame WoW gameplay logic, not me, they need some way of trajectoring resistences, but honestly, mind pwoers are not magical in any fiction, they are in a area of their own

fine okay



http://www.wowwiki.com/Death_knight_organizations

My proof that the Holy powers are corrupted and are becoming inuseable for the Death Knighs (Arthas)

Now it's your turn to counter my proof so far I have:

The statement from the game, and this link concerning the death knights.

Correct there is no proof however there are imo more proof towards him not having anything else then Black, Necromancy and Frost. He did gain more power yes, he got command over the same school as his Liches (imo) However will his spells be more efficient yes, and will his commmand over the undead be greater then what the other liches can accomplishe yes.

However they are in WoW lore so he did gain a magical boost, his mind.

Becci
Originally posted by Burning thought
"shrug" blame WoW gameplay logic, not me, they need some way of trajectoring resistences, but honestly, mind pwoers are not magical in any fiction, they are in a area of their own

You mean any fiction except for Warcraft, right?

Burning thought
hm corrupted yes, but unusuable ime not so sure, also is there reference for that WoWwiki info.

I disagree, the Wowwiki statement is better imo, but the statement of Arthas is irrelevent.

I do not belive this, I think what his Liches get is irrelevent, same with most minions, their master usually has more powers, diffrent powers etc etc.

Nothing ive seen in WoW lore states mind powers as magic "shrug" otherwise that would mean Ysera is not required, Malygos since apprently the mind is magic should of been able to get into anyones mind as well.....which ofc is not the case.

Becci
Life, death, nature, mind and more are all magical abilities in Warcraft.

Just because they are, does not mean that Ysera and Alexstrasza serve no purpose. They were not made to fight. They were created to safeguard. Malygos safeguards magic, while Ysera safeguard nature and the dream. Nozdormu safeguard time and Alexstrasza life, Neltharion the earth.

Do you really think that one aspect is useless just because one know the element of another?

DarkC
Originally posted by Becci
- Fact: Lich King is magical. Malygos is the supreme Azerothian power in magic. In all of existance, only Titans can match him.
What the hell happened to Deathwing?

Becci
After his defeat, he fled to Outlands I believe. He was severely weakened, but could perhaps have recovered.

DarkC
In all of existence, past and present, or just present?

Becci
Just present.

DarkC
I still wouldn't go so far as to say that he could match a Titan. The Prime Aspects were pretty much dogs compared to them.

Utrigita
Originally posted by Burning thought
hm corrupted yes, but unusuable ime not so sure, also is there reference for that WoWwiki info.

I disagree, the Wowwiki statement is better imo, but the statement of Arthas is irrelevent.

I do not belive this, I think what his Liches get is irrelevent, same with most minions, their master usually has more powers, diffrent powers etc etc.

Nothing ive seen in WoW lore states mind powers as magic "shrug" otherwise that would mean Ysera is not required, Malygos since apprently the mind is magic should of been able to get into anyones mind as well.....which ofc is not the case.

I believe they got it directly from the new lore concerning the Death knigths on Blizzard.com if Holy power are corrupted then they isn't holy any longer, that pretty simple, the only way to gain them back for a tainted Paladin would be to abandon his undead status.

Thats how you look at it I guess, and anyway I have presented my case.

I don't think it is since the Liches was warped by Kil'Jaeden by the same time he warped the Lich King, and more power certainly different well we already knew that he gained command over the frost element and then granted the ability to the liches afterwards, however I haven't seen anything that could suggest the Lich King having more magical spells then what has been mentioned previously.

I have no idea on how to catagorise the mind power and Ysara's connection to the emerald dream, but fact is that in WoW it's magical black magic to be more specific.

Becci
Originally posted by DarkC
I still wouldn't go so far as to say that he could match a Titan. The Prime Aspects were pretty much dogs compared to them.

I guess I could have made better choice of words. What I meant was that the only beings that he is not superior is the Pantheon. Any one of the Pantheon surpass him, in my opinion.

DarkC
That's true, Archimonde was Sargera's second and Malygos still could have wiped the floor with him.


The Lich King, before merging with Arthas, was somewhat more powerful than Kil'jaeden if I recall correctly, who was on par with Archimonde for power. After merging he became pretty damn strong. Gamewise he's tougher to take down than an old god (which is bullshat).

I say Malygos takes this one.

Becci
No, Lich King has never been stated to be more powerful than Kil'Jaeden. All he did was break out of Kil'Jaedens enslavement, but that has been done before in similar scenarios without having to be more powerful. Grom and Sylvanas to mention two.

Burning thought
Originally posted by Utrigita
I believe they got it directly from the new lore concerning the Death knigths on Blizzard.com if Holy power are corrupted then they isn't holy any longer, that pretty simple, the only way to gain them back for a tainted Paladin would be to abandon his undead status.

Thats how you look at it I guess, and anyway I have presented my case.

I don't think it is since the Liches was warped by Kil'Jaeden by the same time he warped the Lich King, and more power certainly different well we already knew that he gained command over the frost element and then granted the ability to the liches afterwards, however I haven't seen anything that could suggest the Lich King having more magical spells then what has been mentioned previously.

I have no idea on how to catagorise the mind power and Ysara's connection to the emerald dream, but fact is that in WoW it's magical black magic to be more specific.

Fair enough, if its on Blizzard I cannot argue with that

Well we may as well w8 and find out, but the main point of the argument which i succeeded in was to destroy Blessings constant sayings of "FACT" when its only an assumption.

Originally posted by Becci
Do you really think that one aspect is useless just because one know the element of another?


Well yes because then theres no point of that guardian if another covered that area

Mind is not magic powers

Becci
Originally posted by Burning thought
Well yes because then theres no point of that guardian if another covered that area

Mind is not magic powers

No, each Aspect has their set areas of guardianship so that they can FOCUS on it. If Malygos was to safeguard the dream, he could not pay full attention to the magic.

A mind is not magic, but mind projection is.

Burning thought
Ime not convinced theres no logic or evidence for Mind powers being magic, you dont use magic to project your mind, not in any fiction do they do so.

Becci
In Warcraft it is. Projecting your mind is as magical as projecting fire, which is magical. Almost the entire world in Warcraft is based on magic. The skies and the water is magic. I don't nominate Malygos for the most powerful being on Azeroth without a reason.

Mental projection is magic. Mind control, mind blast, mind flay, mind blockade and all those abilities have always been considered magical. The reason Ysera had problem breaching Neltharion's mind was because of his high magical resistance.

Burning thought
As i said, ime not convinced until i see something official, as i said the mind just cannot be magical, projecting it cannot be either, controlling someones mind cannot be magic, a fireball, something that you use your energy/mana/magicka for can be magic, but the LK doesnt use energy to control undead or has never been stated to do so, no one in Warcraft afaik have actually said they will use mana/magicka to control a mind or send telekinetic projectiles.

It sounds daft and without logic to think the mind of all things or projection of it can be magic imo, ill simply w8 until proof of such can be found, if there is no proof then i will not see Mind powers as magic.

Becci
http://www.wowwiki.com/Mind_Vision
http://www.wowwiki.com/Mind_Blast
http://www.wowwiki.com/Mind_Control
http://www.wowwiki.com/Mind_Soothe
http://www.wowwiki.com/Mind_Flay
http://www.wowwiki.com/Gnomish_Mind_Control_Cap
http://www.wowwiki.com/Presence_of_Mind
http://www.wowwiki.com/Mind_Quickening_Gem
http://www.wowwiki.com/Mind_Mastery
http://www.wowwiki.com/Arcane_Mind
http://www.wowwiki.com/Focused_Mind_%28Priest%29


I can bring up more. All are referred to as magical. I can also bring it up from an official site, rather than WoWWiki if you want.

DarkC
Originally posted by Becci
No, Lich King has never been stated to be more powerful than Kil'Jaeden. All he did was break out of Kil'Jaedens enslavement, but that has been done before in similar scenarios without having to be more powerful. Grom and Sylvanas to mention two.
It was mentioned that Ner'Zhul "finally surpassed" Kil'Jaeden in power in the Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos game guide lore section.

Becci
Originally posted by DarkC
It was mentioned that Ner'Zhul "finally surpassed" Kil'Jaeden in power in the Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos game guide lore section.

Where did it say that? Because I just now read it trough and found nothing of such. What Lich King has done, was surpass the limitations that Kil'Jaeden thought he had set. He surpassed the power level Kil'Jaeden granted him and he grew powerful enough to break out of Kil'Jaedens grasp.

He has never been stated, in any official fictional or lore work- been stated to surpass Kil'Jaedens power.

Burning thought
Originally posted by Becci
http://www.wowwiki.com/Mind_Vision
http://www.wowwiki.com/Mind_Blast
http://www.wowwiki.com/Mind_Control
http://www.wowwiki.com/Mind_Soothe
http://www.wowwiki.com/Mind_Flay
http://www.wowwiki.com/Gnomish_Mind_Control_Cap
http://www.wowwiki.com/Presence_of_Mind
http://www.wowwiki.com/Mind_Quickening_Gem
http://www.wowwiki.com/Mind_Mastery
http://www.wowwiki.com/Arcane_Mind
http://www.wowwiki.com/Focused_Mind_%28Priest%29


I can bring up more. All are referred to as magical. I can also bring it up from an official site, rather than WoWWiki if you want.

These are all World of Warcraft abilities with already attributed resitances, the mind powers are centered around shadow resistences so characters can resist, theres nothing about lore in there, your using WoW gameplay elements to back up your argument.

Also for some reason what Dark C says rings a bell, its prob Old lore thats been retconned however

Becci
Originally posted by Burning thought
These are all World of Warcraft abilities with already attributed resitances, the mind powers are centered around shadow resistences so characters can resist, theres nothing about lore in there, your using WoW gameplay elements to back up your argument.

Also for some reason what Dark C says rings a bell, its prob Old lore thats been retconned however

It is not simply a gameplay "element". Mind projectiles are magical projectiles, but I will not bother trying to convince you about it anymore. It does not matter anyway, since Malygos will win before Lich King can deliver any damage.


If it rings a bell, please tell me where it is written, because it has not been mentioned once in anything I have ever read and I have read it all. That is the kind of thing I would remember.

Burning thought
well you can belive Malygos will win and ill belive LK will crush him into the dirt

As i said its prob been retconned from the Old lore, before your time which you seem to say never excisted so obviously you have not read it either that or Dark C has read something recently that i have forgotten as proof, if he has and can find it again i would appreciate it very much if he Pmed me the link or linked me to it in here myself.

Becci
Tell me how Lich King would even penetrate the mana-shield?

He said it was from RoC. I have read all RoC writings. There is only one RoC. How can RoC be before my time, when I bought it the moment it was released? (Heck, I had it even before it was officialy released)

Burning thought
with a superior force of magic, or simply use his mind to make Malygos deactivate it himself, or just Gib malygos into pieces the way Archimonde did to the dragon by clecnhing his hand. There are likely many many things LK could do, he may have some form of dispel, he may simply use curses, they can be put on a target during a shield, teh shield only stops damage but the curses may drain Malygos of power, weaken him to the strength and speed of a gnome and more.

Then maybe you didnt read it when it was released ,maybe the particulour information were talking about you did not read at the time it was there, either way you have not obviously read it or if you did, youve forgotten it. Thats the only explanation.

Becci
Superior force of magic? Are you listening to yourself. Sargeras himself barely had a portion of Norgannons magic. You expect Kil'Jaeden to have blessed Lich King to pantheon level? no expression

I have forgotten what exactly? Please tell me what it said. Because I am holding the game right here, reading it. Both an old version and a new one. I lost my first edition, so I recently bought myself a new one. I have read it, Burning Thought. You will have to tell me where exactly I am supposed to read.

Burning thought
How do you know how much Norgannon actually blessed Malygos?

Malygos is not Pantheon level......

I dont know, as i said even ive forgottoen, Dark C simply rang a bell of what it said.

Becci
He blessed him with enough to control all magic. That is all I have to know.

No, Malygos is not Pantheon level. He likely as close as it gets and definately the closest being there is to Pantheon level. Malygos is more magical than Kil'Jaeden. If you say Lich King so superiorly surpass Malygos, he pretty much near Pantheon level. It takes more than necromancy, frost and shadow magic to get near Pantheon level.


I do not think that is something you have ever read. Nor do I think it is something DarkC has ever read. I even have the collectors edition, so if you have any clue where I should read, please let me know.

Burning thought
well exactley, so you cannot compare Malygos or the level of power he gained immediatley to Pantheon level, since Maygos gained only a portion.

Ime not sure about that, I would say Kiljaeden is closer, and since i belive Lich King>Kiljaeden i would say LK is closer as well. Variety of magic as youve said before yourself is not always the way, a few extremely high quality powers beat quantity although i sitll do not concede to LK having definaltey just those schools of magic, and even if it is true, you can do an enormous amount with Frost, Shadow and Necromancy, LK may summon legions of Adult blue dragons and Dragon Liches to his aid through Necromancy, Necromancy can also include cripple to make Malygos useless, Shadow magic includes so many powers, even those that rip your soul from you.

Well Dark C says he has read it and it rings a bell with me so its likely to excist. I think it may have been the old lore on the WoW site before it was updated unless its in the Frozen throne manual.

Becci
Stop bringing Old Lore up. It was written in RoC according to him, and I have both editions of RoC. Nothing say that Lich King is above Kil'Jaeden.

Burning thought
nothing youve seen "shrug" and he says the game guide lore section, when he says game guide does he mean Manual?

Becci
I have:

RoC: Limited Edition Game Manual.
RoC: Original Game Manual
RoC: Game Strategy Guide

If it is not in one of those, let me know which one so I can order it, because I want them all. I have looked at Amazon, Ginza and CDON, but those three are the only RoC writings I can find.

Please tell me what I am supposed to search for.

Utrigita
If I understand you correctly BT then are you under the impression that Malygos haven't been expanding his power for more then 15.000 years? Which isn't correct.

You most certainly can however nearly all magic when boiled down to it's bone is arcane in origin, and I see no reason why Malygos wouldn't have the ability since a member of his dragon flight was shown using it, ONCE that was all a bit like Cenarius can control Arcane magic but hates using it because of it's corrupting energies. Well sure cast cripple on a Dragon that can cast dispel, great.

About what DarkC read I cannot comment on it since I have never read the book that is being mentioned.

Burning thought
IF Malygos has to do something to remove something LK has already done, then LK has the time Malygos is removing it to attack using another ability, he could just cast curses to slow casting time like curse of tongues only whatever a god/demi-god version would be

Becci
Slowing casting time only works if casting time is required What the f**k? No blue dragon has ever required casting time.

Burning thought
how do they cast spells? if its by voice then they will not be able to cast spells, if its by movements then a slowing curse will do just as well

Becci
By thought in dragon form. While human form, they have to point. A slowing curse would not effect Malygos anyway, but even if it was applied to him, he would not have to move once trough the entire fight since his spells are activated by thought.

Burning thought
then Malygos has no chance if he has to think to do something, thats Lich Kings specialty

Utrigita
How so?

Burning thought
Lich King will likely just knock him out still, turn his mind off, etc etc. He could just overload Malygos' defences with shadow powers, or as i said before take Malygos' soul with shadow magic.

Utrigita
Would you mind showing me where it stats that the Lich King would be capable of damaging the mind of Malygos which during the War of the Ancient as already mentioned by Becci I believe proved that he had quiet excellent mental defenses. The only beings that the Lich King have the proof of which minds he could enter before they turned undead where the inhabitants of Northeren.

He could try taking his soul however taking the Soul of a Dragon isn't as easy as it seems, the Dragon has to willingly give up a part of there soul for it to be taken, hence why Deathwing crafted the Demon Soul.

Burning thought
The Lich Kings mind would be far beyond Malygos' defences, he instantly takes over beings near icecrown at his weakest, a Dragon in his most powerful form will not be difficult, and Becci did not prove Malygos has excellent mental defence, where?

what? nothing states this, can you show me please? Deathwing is not capable of taking souls anyway, and where does it say they gave a portion of their souls? i thought it was only their power.

Utrigita
I would like you to show that the Lich Kings attack capabilities against Malygos would easily overcome his Mental defenses. Except that he doesn't what beings that wasn't undead have he easily taken over when he was at his weakest, None if I recall Correctly. A while back I believe...

They gave up a part of themselves, hence Deathwing had total command over the remaining aspects and there Dragon Flights, that was the reason to that he easily exterminated nearly all the Blue Dragons (except Malygos) in the war of the Ancient. Except that he when turned evil commanded black magic... as for the black magic part

http://www.wowwiki.com/Black_Dragon

Schools fire and shadow.

Becci
Originally posted by Burning thought
then Malygos has no chance if he has to think to do something, thats Lich Kings specialty

Right: You know that It has never been done in the history of Warcraft, right? A lot of people have had mind powers, but not one single one has inflicted any direct internal damage on a mind. What exactly makes you think Lich King can do it against one that actually is resistant against mind magic?

Burning thought
Originally posted by Utrigita
I would like you to show that the Lich Kings attack capabilities against Malygos would easily overcome his Mental defenses. Except that he doesn't what beings that wasn't undead have he easily taken over when he was at his weakest, None if I recall Correctly. A while back I believe...

They gave up a part of themselves, hence Deathwing had total command over the remaining aspects and there Dragon Flights, that was the reason to that he easily exterminated nearly all the Blue Dragons (except Malygos) in the war of the Ancient. Except that he when turned evil commanded black magic... as for the black magic part

http://www.wowwiki.com/Black_Dragon

Schools fire and shadow.



http://www.wow-europe.com/en/info/story/chapter4.html#26

fully alive creatures, trolls who are fairly intelligent also so their not just "beasts" either, it shows he can do it, whether or not he could take out Malygos we dont know, although where is Malygos' mind resistence?

I know and none of those were souls, just essences, no soul attacks here, hence no soul resistence or "dragons have to freely give up their souls"

Originally posted by Becci
Right: You know that It has never been done in the history of Warcraft, right? A lot of people have had mind powers, but not one single one has inflicted any direct internal damage on a mind. What exactly makes you think Lich King can do it against one that actually is resistant against mind magic?

Show me Malygos being resistent again the mind please and resistence against the most powerful mind attack using being in the history of Warcraft is diffrent compared to complete immunity or resistence against a minor force.

DarkC
Anyone that has the ability to manipulate magic can cast mental barriers and wards to protect their minds. Illidan did it in the War of the Ancients novels to protect his thoughts from the Burning Legion when he was pretending to work with them for a while. Malygos is the embodiment of magic, of course he can protect his mind with it.

Utrigita
Originally posted by Burning thought
http://www.wow-europe.com/en/info/story/chapter4.html#26

fully alive creatures, trolls who are fairly intelligent also so their not just "beasts" either, it shows he can do it, whether or not he could take out Malygos we dont know, although where is Malygos' mind resistence?

I know and none of those were souls, just essences, no soul attacks here, hence no soul resistence or "dragons have to freely give up their souls"


I'm fully aware of that however you claimed that



which isn't the case, infact if anything he is losing control at his weakest not taking control else he would have defeated Illidan and his army by himself... And yet no showing of him containing a human being with his mind alone, why do you think he drived the scrouge into the human village in the first place (there is a reference on the very same link you used) Most likely because he couldn't control the humans unless they where undead.

To sacrifice a piece of ones essence is to sacrifis a piece of ones soul, Hence Deathwing had total command over the aspects and there dragonflights. I know there wasn't no soul attack...

And for one to use a soul rip the being must be near death...

Burning thought
Originally posted by DarkC
Anyone that has the ability to manipulate magic can cast mental barriers and wards to protect their minds. Illidan did it in the War of the Ancients novels to protect his thoughts from the Burning Legion when he was pretending to work with them for a while. Malygos is the embodiment of magic, of course he can protect his mind with it.

Then hes going to need the most powerful mind protection in the history of warcraft, personally, i think he would fail.

Originally posted by Utrigita
I'm fully aware of that however you claimed that



which isn't the case, infact if anything he is losing control at his weakest not taking control else he would have defeated Illidan and his army by himself... And yet no showing of him containing a human being with his mind alone, why do you think he drived the scrouge into the human village in the first place (there is a reference on the very same link you used) Most likely because he couldn't control the humans unless they where undead.

To sacrifice a piece of ones essence is to sacrifis a piece of ones soul, Hence Deathwing had total command over the aspects and there dragonflights. I know there wasn't no soul attack...

And for one to use a soul rip the being must be near death...

He is still at the point i mentioned far far weaker than the current Lich King youve put up against poor Malygos. Not at all likely, since Ice trolls are similiar to Gurubashi trolls and priests, some of which are more intelligent than any human, he likely made the scourge attack humanity due to them being pathetic morsals, why the hell would he want weak human bodies when he can have undead corpses with far fewer weaknesses? i think ive said that before.

Exactley, there was none, and no, i disagree, Essence is diffrent to soul, essence is simply a piece of your being, a soul is your spiritual excistence, otherwise is the essence of air we find from elementals or such their souls? i dont think so.

Can you show me this please? them being near death? Illidan who is far weaker than LK can draw souls out. The LK would prob just rip it from the dragon before it has a chance.

Becci
Originally posted by Burning thought
Then hes going to need the most powerful mind protection in the history of warcraft, personally, i think he would fail.

Save for the actual Pantheon...... he does.
Why do you think he would fail? Lich King has mind magic. Malygos has mind protection. Malygos pretty much IS magic. What makes you think Lich King's magic can penetrate his mind?

Burning thought
I dont belive the mind is magic so i dont think Malygos has any chance in the matter, it sure didnt help the adult dragon Archimonde used TK to crush, until official non gameplay info can show mind powers as non magical ill keep that view.

But anyway either way i doubt any barrier of Malygos is going to stop the LK mind powers for long, if at all.

And Malygos is not not magic itself, he is simply its guardian

Utrigita
Originally posted by Burning thought
He is still at the point i mentioned far far weaker than the current Lich King youve put up against poor Malygos. Not at all likely, since Ice trolls are similiar to Gurubashi trolls and priests, some of which are more intelligent than any human, he likely made the scourge attack humanity due to them being pathetic morsals, why the hell would he want weak human bodies when he can have undead corpses with far fewer weaknesses? i think ive said that before.

Exactley, there was none, and no, i disagree, Essence is diffrent to soul, essence is simply a piece of your being, a soul is your spiritual excistence, otherwise is the essence of air we find from elementals or such their souls? i dont think so.

Can you show me this please? them being near death? Illidan who is far weaker than LK can draw souls out. The LK would prob just rip it from the dragon before it has a chance.

You where still wrong. Yet he didn't use the scrouge on them, he deliberately choose to use the scrouge on the humans, not the trolls which empire was defeated by the Night Elves, he couldn't mentally take control over the Nerubians which shows that his Mental capacity isn't limitless. Undead with fewer weaknesses? A zombie is more effective then a regular human? A zombie will pretty much just walk forward while a human will try to use his surrondings to his advantege.

I essence is a part of you being, not you physical manifested self, but the mental manifested self, now to me that a part of a soul, also again the name should really speak for itself "the Demon Soul" and before that is was the "Dragon Soul" Soul is used both times. So a Elemental Being in warcraft doesn't have a soul??? What holds the power in Warcraft the soul what contains the power the physical husk. The most clear example of this would be the lich King losing his power because of a crack in his iceprison. But it's a matter of perspective and religion I guess.



http://www.wowwiki.com/Drain_Soul

And when have Illidan drawed out a soul? Source.

Burning thought
Originally posted by Utrigita
You where still wrong. Yet he didn't use the scrouge on them, he deliberately choose to use the scrouge on the humans, not the trolls which empire was defeated by the Night Elves, he couldn't mentally take control over the Nerubians which shows that his Mental capacity isn't limitless. Undead with fewer weaknesses? A zombie is more effective then a regular human? A zombie will pretty much just walk forward while a human will try to use his surrondings to his advantege.

I essence is a part of you being, not you physical manifested self, but the mental manifested self, now to me that a part of a soul, also again the name should really speak for itself "the Demon Soul" and before that is was the "Dragon Soul" Soul is used both times. So a Elemental Being in warcraft doesn't have a soul??? What holds the power in Warcraft the soul what contains the power the physical husk. The most clear example of this would be the lich King losing his power because of a crack in his iceprison. But it's a matter of perspective and religion I guess.



http://www.wowwiki.com/Drain_Soul

And when have Illidan drawed out a soul? Source.

No but the Nerubians had special immunity to said effects, few other beings, at least not dragons have had such immunity stated. A zombie is more effective than a regular citizien, a group of villagers, hell even a footman is weaker......a combie can have 10 swords stabbed through its chest and it wouldnt be worried, it would push on, even if it was disembowed, a human, citizien or a regular guy with a sword<<<<Zombie<<<<<Skeleton

Whats that WoW warlock skill ime well aware of supposed to show? how is it helping your argument?

here:



http://www.wowwiki.com/Illidan_Stormrage_%28tactics%29

Utrigita
Originally posted by Burning thought
No but the Nerubians had special immunity to said effects, few other beings, at least not dragons have had such immunity stated. A zombie is more effective than a regular citizien, a group of villagers, hell even a footman is weaker......a combie can have 10 swords stabbed through its chest and it wouldnt be worried, it would push on, even if it was disembowed, a human, citizien or a regular guy with a sword<<<<Zombie<<<<<Skeleton

Whats that WoW warlock skill ime well aware of supposed to show? how is it helping your argument?

here:



http://www.wowwiki.com/Illidan_Stormrage_%28tactics%29

And you think that Malygos cannot put up the same barriers against the Lich King? Deathwing placed mental barriers around his mind when he discussed the Dragon Soul with the remaining Aspects. Illidan who is far below Malygos during the war of the Ancient was capable of putting up strong mental defenses strong enough to fool Sargeras... I really hope you are talking about outside gameplay mechanics because else it's the other way around entirely Footmen>Skeleton>Zombie.

A warlock skill, a skill that the Lich King doesn't have, unless you would care to show me where it stats that the Lich King can command Warlock spells which no matter how generous I am that power undeniable got stripped away from him by Kil'Jaeden.

Thanks, it certainly looks more like a version of lifedrain, anyhow would you please care to show me the instant where the Lich King have ripped the soul from a being without the being was in contact with the Undead Plague ore mentally dominated by the Lich King?

Burning thought
Originally posted by Utrigita
And you think that Malygos cannot put up the same barriers against the Lich King? Deathwing placed mental barriers around his mind when he discussed the Dragon Soul with the remaining Aspects. Illidan who is far below Malygos during the war of the Ancient was capable of putting up strong mental defenses strong enough to fool Sargeras... I really hope you are talking about outside gameplay mechanics because else it's the other way around entirely Footmen>Skeleton>Zombie.

A warlock skill, a skill that the Lich King doesn't have, unless you would care to show me where it stats that the Lich King can command Warlock spells which no matter how generous I am that power undeniable got stripped away from him by Kil'Jaeden.

Thanks, it certainly looks more like a version of lifedrain, anyhow would you please care to show me the instant where the Lich King have ripped the soul from a being without the being was in contact with the Undead Plague ore mentally dominated by the Lich King?

Malygos may be the master of magic on Azeroth, but ive seen no proof to state he is better at it in ever level, especially considering characters like Illidan have had many off-world powerups. Illidan may be a better mind protector than Malygos is, and protecting your mind or trciking another is not the same as being completly taken over.

I almost always talk out side gameplay mechanics, thats why undead>Humans in a real battle, you can chop them to bits or try and theyll still carry on not getting fatigued, not requiring nourishment to excist etc etc

your the one saying LK has shadow powers, which would include soul drain, is there an official sourece that states only warlocks can drain souls? I doubt there is, you dont have to be a Lich to use frost for example, mages can do that, or a fire elemental to shoot fireballs, LK has dark power, its likely he has soul devouring. Illidan is no warlock although he gained power from the skull of Guldan that merely made him a Demon entity, i dont remember it saying he actually gained warlock powers from it.

No, i cannot, like the whole of this theoretical debate, this is also theoretical, imo this thread itself fails terribly for the fact LK no matter how people whine about it has no real showings of power, especially at this period, he has simply shown masterminded genius, foresight and mental power, but I doubt that is the only powers he has at his current stage.

Utrigita
Originally posted by Burning thought
Malygos may be the master of magic on Azeroth, but ive seen no proof to state he is better at it in ever level, especially considering characters like Illidan have had many off-world powerups. Illidan may be a better mind protector than Malygos is, and protecting your mind or trciking another is not the same as being completly taken over.

I almost always talk out side gameplay mechanics, thats why undead>Humans in a real battle, you can chop them to bits or try and theyll still carry on not getting fatigued, not requiring nourishment to excist etc etc

your the one saying LK has shadow powers, which would include soul drain, is there an official sourece that states only warlocks can drain souls? I doubt there is, you dont have to be a Lich to use frost for example, mages can do that, or a fire elemental to shoot fireballs, LK has dark power, its likely he has soul devouring. Illidan is no warlock although he gained power from the skull of Guldan that merely made him a Demon entity, i dont remember it saying he actually gained warlock powers from it.

No, i cannot, like the whole of this theoretical debate, this is also theoretical, imo this thread itself fails terribly for the fact LK no matter how people whine about it has no real showings of power, especially at this period, he has simply shown masterminded genius, foresight and mental power, but I doubt that is the only powers he has at his current stage.

You are still protecting it from mind probing ore direct trying to posesses, like DarkC stated, the wards and shields that can be placed inside ones mind is raised magical, and not really seeing again how, since the wards and shields is magical and Illidan was during the war of the ancient far below Malygos when it comes to dealing with the matter of the Arcane. Also what actually supports that the Lich King can enter a mind easily can force it to do his bidding, if he could Arthas would had come to the Icecrown long ago, he would have made the Dreadlords his puppets, yet he didn't he only enslaved icetrolls (which are below there bretheren when it comes to intelligence) and other beasts.

Except that the Zombies are the canonfodder of the Scrouge I think that speaks quiet clearly for there abilities in combat. as a Hole sure Undead>Humans zombies however...

Well since It's a warlock spell I would highly suppose so it's fel Magic which is the difference between Frost fire wind etc which are elemental. Gul'dan was the most powerful none eredar warlock that has never existed, and Illidan gained his knowlegde and memories else the transformation wouldn't have happened if he had gained nothing from the encounter...

haha got you wink And agreed not much is known about except what can be concluded from the already known lore and gameplay concerning him.

DarkC
Originally posted by Burning thought
Then hes going to need the most powerful mind protection in the history of warcraft, personally, i think he would fail.

Illidan could shield his mind and thoughts from Sargeras, why wouldn't Malygos be able to against the Lich King?

Burning thought
Because the Lich King is directly ripping into Malygos' head with the intent to destroy it

DarkC
So did a simple being like Malfurion, with his mind under assault by a being far superior to him, Archimonde. He survived. Rhonin did as well. Both were simply rendered unconscious.

You're talking about a mind assault on one of the most powerful dragons there ever was, the complete and uncontested master of magic, against someone technically supposed to be equal to him in power. There is no way in hell that the Lich King is going to pull that mind assault off, and any consideration that he would manage to do something is just folly.

Becci
Originally posted by DarkC
So did a simple being like Malfurion, with his mind under assault by a being far superior to him, Archimonde. He survived. Rhonin did as well. Both were simply rendered unconscious.

You're talking about a mind assault on one of the most powerful dragons there ever was, the complete and uncontested master of magic, against someone technically supposed to be equal to him in power. There is no way in hell that the Lich King is going to pull that mind assault off, and any consideration that he would manage to do something is just folly.

I would like to believe that Malygos is the most powerful dragon there is. Neltharion with the Demon Soul obviously exceed, but that is not natural stick out tongue

I would not bother trying to convince Burning Thought about it, since he obviously think Illidan is stronger than Malygos in magic and that Lich King is mentally stronger than Sargeras.

DarkC
Nah, Deathwing's probably the strongest out of the dragons one to one, he was singled out and corrupted by the Old Gods.

Becci
To me there is a difference between being powerful and being dangerous. Neltharion would be more dangerous, but Malygos definately have more power smile

DarkC
How exactly is Neltharion more "dangerous" then?

Becci
He did strike down the other flights quite handily. He held his own in the battle better than any of the other aspects would in direct combat. Malygos is the aspect of magic and his width and strength in magic is highly unchallenged by all other aspects.

My point is that even though you are the most powerful does not mean you are the greatest threat.

DarkC
Interestingly enough, Krasus in the third WotA novel acknowledged Deathwing as being the most powerful Aspect anyways.

Null point.

If Malygos was the most powerful, the Old Gods would have corrupted him instead. Why would they have entrusted the crafting of the Demon Soul to Neltharion then?

Becci
Because Neltharion had better chances at pulling it off.

DarkC
How?

Becci
Several reasons.

- The Black Flight is physically superior. By being as highly resistant to damage as they are and as physically strong can they resista ttacks that no other dragon would.

- The Black Flight is more agressive. Fury and power has a far higher efficiency if they are agressive, which has been seen at multiple occasions troughout Warcraft. Fury and agression is a mighty weapon.

- Neltharion personally was probably one of the dragon that was easiest to corrupt to begin with. Malygos is resistant to magic, Alexstasza is very noble at mind and soul, Nozdormu is not the easiest one to catch to begin with and Ysera.. well.. lets face it.. Ysera is not the one dragon of the five you would pick.

DarkC
Nozdormu was easy to catch, the Old Gods got to him first before anything else in the first place, that's the entire reason behind the War of the Ancients trilogy, they reached into time and screwed him up and imprisoned him.

I wouldn't say that Neltharion is the easiest to corrupt, he was the wisest out of all the dragons before he got messed in the head. Remember, he's supposed to keep order in the land, and beings with a slow and easily influenced mind don't do well in that department.

How is the Black Dragonflight more "aggressive" as a trait? How are they more physically resilient than the other dragons, when Korialstrasz held his own against Deathwing in claws and teeth combat? They were only more aggressive towards everything after their corruption.

Burning thought
Originally posted by Becci
I would like to believe that Malygos is the most powerful dragon there is. Neltharion with the Demon Soul obviously exceed, but that is not natural stick out tongue

I would not bother trying to convince Burning Thought about it, since he obviously think Illidan is stronger than Malygos in magic and that Lich King is mentally stronger than Sargeras.

He may be greater in mind power than Malygos, mind power does not equel magic imo

mentally stronger than Sargeras? ime not too knowledgable on whether or not Sargerus has used mind powers to control beings before, I know he has corrupted and possessed but no mind powers to my mind.

DarkC
Originally posted by Burning thought
He may be greater in mind power than Malygos, mind power does not equel magic imo

mentally stronger than Sargeras? ime not too knowledgable on whether or not Sargerus has used mind powers to control beings before, I know he has corrupted and possessed but no mind powers to my mind.
Like I said earlier, beings with any control of magic can easily shield their mind and thoughts from those of similar power level.


And yes he has tried to use enticing mind powers on before, on Malfurion. Malfurion managed to resist it with a bit of difficulty.

Burning thought
But this does still say nothing for those who are completly taking your mind, defence against seduction is not the same as defence against complete take over imo.

enticing is not the same as compeltly taking over a mind, and LK entices many...only he succeeds every time to my knowledge...Arthas in a way but his soul was forfeit but Kelthuzard was enticed, he may have had a lot of interest in dark studies but it takes a lot of enticing to do what he wanted Kelth to do, look at Kelth now, once a great Dalaran Wizard, now a Lich of the undead who speaks of the LK like a God.

DarkC
It's just one step further. Besides, we're talking a TITAN trying to mind control a mortal here, not one of similar power.

Like I said earlier, no way in hell that the Lich King will pull that one off.

Burning thought
"shrug" ill say as i said earlier ,LK blasts Malygos into pieces or overides Malygos' mind before he can even think of attempting to cast a spell and nothing says an Aspect is of similiar power to the Lich King

DarkC
Out of everyone in the Warcraft universe, the being with the strongest ability to mind control is Ysera, and she can barely pull off her tricks on her fellow Aspects.

Lich King wouldn't be able to do much of anything; Malygos has been shown to project a big beam that is so purely destructive that it completely erases existence itself and leaves a white streak of nothingness behind.


Learn your lore.

Utrigita
Originally posted by DarkC
Nozdormu was easy to catch, the Old Gods got to him first before anything else in the first place, that's the entire reason behind the War of the Ancients trilogy, they reached into time and screwed him up and imprisoned him.

Didn't they "just" trap him between different timelines because of his near omnipresence?

Which made it possible for them to act without interferens in creating the rift in time and space.

DarkC
No, they pretty much imprisoned him in a bubble made of time.

If that makes any sense.

Utrigita
I makes sense it was just the way I read it, it was more because of his constant existance on different planes of time that made it possible for them, but I will admit that it has been a long time since I last read the trilogy

Burning thought
Originally posted by DarkC
Out of everyone in the Warcraft universe, the being with the strongest ability to mind control is Ysera, and she can barely pull off her tricks on her fellow Aspects.

Lich King wouldn't be able to do much of anything; Malygos has been shown to project a big beam that is so purely destructive that it completely erases existence itself and leaves a white streak of nothingness behind.


Learn your lore.

Learn your lore, learn that the current LK has not made any real moves yet, learn that.....show me your lore please that states the limit of the LK, show me what makes you belive he is unabalbe to do anything to Malygos?

LK is simply stated as one of the most powerful beings on Azeroth in one piece of info, and one of the most powerful beings ever in the Warcraft universe, I highly doubt he will be layed low by an aspect of any level, one of them would have already done it by now. Lore is nothing to do with it when your stating things like the level of the LK which is not in lore to the public yet.

DarkC
Originally posted by Burning thought
Learn your lore, learn that the current LK has not made any real moves yet, learn that.....show me your lore please that states the limit of the LK, show me what makes you belive he is unabalbe to do anything to Malygos?

Has not made any real moves yet, expect for sending an invasion of his Undead army into the Eastern Kingdoms and sending a Necropolis with his Lieutenant in charge, yeah. Seemed to have missed out on that bit.

If he's going to be killable by a 25-man raid he's probably not as hyped up as you believe him to be. Malygos knows more about the workings of magic, and he's MUCH more experienced with it than the Death Knight/Lich despite his power level. Remember, the dragon's an Aspect, he has more than 10,000 years of knowledge of his magical craft. He can counter ANYTHING, unless the magic is written against him (which he must contribute or consent to in the first place anyways).


Funny how you tell me to learn my lore.

The dragons, notoriously lazy on major issues concerning their own world just like the demigods of Azeroth are too, generally don't get majorly involved with things. They sometime disperse agents here and there to keep an eye on things (Korialstrasz, Vaelastrasz and Kalecgos, for example) but the Aspects themselves almost never get personally involved, not unless they're certain their world is under immediate threat of imminent destruction (like the first invasion of the Burning Legion, which is the only time they got majorly involved).

Since Arthas/Ner'Zhul is content to sit on his ass on his Frozen Throne in Northrend for the moment, the Aspects also sit on their asses too and not do a thing about it, trusting to the mortal races to restore order like they always have.

Burning thought
Originally posted by DarkC
Has not made any real moves yet, expect for sending an invasion of his Undead army into the Eastern Kingdoms and sending a Necropolis with his Lieutenant in charge, yeah. Seemed to have missed out on that bit.

If he's going to be killable by a 25-man raid he's probably not as hyped up as you believe him to be. Malygos knows more about the workings of magic, and he's MUCH more experienced with it than the Death Knight/Lich despite his power level. Remember, the dragon's an Aspect, he has more than 10,000 years of knowledge of his magical craft. He can counter ANYTHING, unless the magic is written against him (which he must contribute or consent to in the first place anyways).


Funny how you tell me to learn my lore.

The dragons, notoriously lazy on major issues concerning their own world just like the demigods of Azeroth are too, generally don't get majorly involved with things. They sometime disperse agents here and there to keep an eye on things (Korialstrasz, Vaelastrasz and Kalecgos, for example) but the Aspects themselves almost never get personally involved, not unless they're certain their world is under immediate threat of imminent destruction (like the first invasion of the Burning Legion, which is the only time they got majorly involved).

Since Arthas/Ner'Zhul is content to sit on his ass on his Frozen Throne in Northrend for the moment, the Aspects also sit on their asses too and not do a thing about it, trusting to the mortal races to restore order like they always have.

No he has not made any real move, you think their extremely terrible moves? he himself has done nothing but sit, you can hardly state whether he can or cannot do something then tell me I need to read lore when the character i theorised into doing something is not even in lore which makes your comment nothing.

Malygos is also attackable by a 25 man raid, go figuire......seems you dont know a great deal on warcraft, and ofc, Malygos is before LK so going by your logic, he is even weaker.

Regardless of Magic, the LK may not use magic to destroy the dragon if they fought.

Its not that funny, you need to read thorugh and realise the current LK has not made major battle if any at all by himself. Only then will you realise that saying I need to read lore because of it is nonsense.

Exactley ,Demi gods of Azeroth like the Lich King are seeminly lazy which is prob why hes done nothing yet, however he is the number one threat of Azeroth at this moment, and with that in mind, the dragons should indeed if they are capable at all should do something about it.

DarkC
Originally posted by Burning thought
No he has not made any real move, you think their extremely terrible moves? he himself has done nothing but sit, you can hardly state whether he can or cannot do something then tell me I need to read lore when the character i theorised into doing something is not even in lore which makes your comment nothing.
Exactly, you're theorising moves that you THINK he can do, that he HASN'T been shown to do. Ever.

Me, on the other hand, I'm basing my arguments upon things that HAVE been shown in the lore or novels or games, for that matter.

Judging by you calling me out on lore-specifics, I'm not even sure why you're bringing it up here if it's contradicting your own argument utterly.

Go figure.

When the hell was the last time you played WoW?

Since when was Malygos attackable? To the best of my knowledge he himself, nor any of the other aspects, has even made an APPEARANCE in World of Warcraft.

Are you sure you're not being mistaken by Azuregos? Kalecgos, maybe?

Mind attacks are not going to work either.

Yeah, he's the #1 POTENTIAL threat to Azeroth at the moment. He hasn't actually done anything yet, that's why everyone is sitting on their asses still. There is a difference.

The dragons do respect the mortal races and for the most part leave them to restore order when needed. The second time that the Burning Legion came, with the Scourge added in, the mortal races managed to band together and drive off the threat as one without the aid of dragons. Not to mention Ahn'Qiraj.

No wonder the Aspects just sit and go "We'll just let them do all the work, they're doing a pretty good job so far."

DarkC
Also find me an official source stating that the Nexus is "before" Icecrown in terms of progression.

Burning thought
Originally posted by DarkC
Exactly, you're theorising moves that you THINK he can do, that he HASN'T been shown to do. Ever.

Me, on the other hand, I'm basing my arguments upon things that HAVE been shown in the lore or novels or games, for that matter.

Judging by you calling me out on lore-specifics, I'm not even sure why you're bringing it up here if it's contradicting your own argument utterly.

Go figure.

When the hell was the last time you played WoW?

Since when was Malygos attackable? To the best of my knowledge he himself, nor any of the other aspects, has even made an APPEARANCE in World of Warcraft.

Are you sure you're not being mistaken by Azuregos? Kalecgos, maybe?

Mind attacks are not going to work either.

Yeah, he's the #1 POTENTIAL threat to Azeroth at the moment. He hasn't actually done anything yet, that's why everyone is sitting on their asses still. There is a difference.

The dragons do respect the mortal races and for the most part leave them to restore order when needed. The second time that the Burning Legion came, with the Scourge added in, the mortal races managed to band together and drive off the threat as one without the aid of dragons. Not to mention Ahn'Qiraj.

No wonder the Aspects just sit and go "We'll just let them do all the work, they're doing a pretty good job so far."

Thats because thats the only possible outcome, you can only theorise moves from a being who is only theory, which is why as i said before, this thread fails just like any other LK thread including the ones ive made.

Which has not been shown from the LK.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Malygos#Wrath_of_the_Lich_King



also its funny how you mention him not being in it, yet then you realise he is in the Nexas instance lol, classic...

Because he is part of the initiual fighting in a realm that is open from the beginning of the game, Dalaren are fighting Malygos and his servants early in the ROTLK



from here: http://www.wowwiki.com/Nexus#Wrath_of_the_Lich_King

if you dont like WoWwiki, the very Wowwiki artcile shows you official site info, ime sure i dont have to personally Link you to the official site.....its not hard to find

DarkC
Funny how you don't seem to realize that I was referring to in-game content already OUT and RELEASED, which is what you were referring to earlier.


Even if Arthas IS technically the endgame boss, it has no real standing in his power among other bosses in WoW.


Lore-wise, C'Thun should be able to school Arthas. Old God > Merged Entity.
Lore-wise, Kalecgos would get his ass kicked by Nafarian. Eldest son of Deathwing > Young progeny of Malygos.
Lore-wise, Kel'Thuzad should be able to own Bloodboil. Senior Lich > Crazed fel orc.

See what I mean?

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