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Man of Miracles
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_of_Miracles_%28comics%29

Vs

Beyonder
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beyonder

Who takes it?

Which Beyonder

TOAA=Presence=MoM

...........................................................................................


The Beyonder between 1984 and 1986,
was everything outside the Marvel Multiverse, (Infinite Beyond)
was GOD before Genesis, (a Supreme Being)
and in comparison with the entire Marvel Reality the Beyond Realm was like an Ocean,
while the entire Marvel Reality was like a drop of water.

Writer's own words! ^^^

......................................................................................


Jim Shooter - creator/writer of Secret Wars/Beyonder
(while he was Editor in chief of Marvel)

Get's interviewed ... about the Beyonder.

......................................................................................


Marvel Age is an official Marvel title, created to strictly discuss Marvel stories,
and other intricacies concerning Marvel comics.

......................................................................................


Jim Shooter himself describes Classic Beyonder to us:


Jim states:


1. Beyonder "is a Multi-verse."

2. Beyonder "was like God before there was Genesis."

3. Beyonder's discovery of our Universe ... (Marvel Multiverse)

.... was like when inventor Leeuwenhoek, looked through his micro-scope ...

.... and discovered little paramecia swimming in a drop of water ... "

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/3339/jim1wp8.th.jpg

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/7402/jim2mj1.th.jpg


swank


This is why Beyonder had to be retconned, (de-powered)
simply too much grander and power.

...........................................................................................


MILLIONS of times more powerful than the Living Tribunal,
and the rest of Marvel combined:

http://img431.imageshack.us/img431/7524/beyondermillionsofxmorepowerfu.th.jpg

...........................................................................................


This is why!


....................................................................


The LT was afraid of the Beyonder, Desperate in FACT:

....................................................................


When Uatu gathered the Cosmic Hierarchy (the LT included)

the In-Betweener says about Mephisto,

"Surely this is his day of last resorts ... he is desperate ... AS ARE WE"

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/2595/beyo1hr6.th.jpg

I believe "WE" included the LT (who is there)

................................................................................................


After Beyonder erased Death from the Multiverse,
the Hierarchy (including the LT) accepts their fate,

then the MM shows up and they all step aside: (as if salvation arrived)

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/1442/26796258iu4.th.jpg

LOL!

................................................................................................


Even more EMBARRASSING,

the Living Tribunal and the hierarchy literally,
were quaking in their pants at the thought of what Beyonder would do,
if Eternity failed,
when Eternity actually mustered some courage to attempt an attack:

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/8900/beto2za1.th.jpg

"The Mighty of the MULTIVERSE (the LT included) TREMBLE"

................................................................................................


Beyonder's top feat


Creating from nothingness ... the Beyond Realm
(a Reality quintillions of times more infinite, than the infinite prime Multiverse)

http://img387.imageshack.us/img387/197/bekw8.th.jpg

"A Universe to which OUR OWN is as a droplet of Water to the Ocean"



=== note ===

There are roughly around 20-25 Quintillion drops of Water in the Ocean,
according to the Mathematical Biosciences Intitute in 2005
and the Scripps Institution of Oceanography.

................................................................................................


"OUR OWN" Universe ... is the infinite prime Multiverse:


...................................................................................

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/7222/beyonderexploresthemulitverseoy9.th.jpg

"Odd thing He had noticed about our Universe"

"Namely that it is Many-Layered

composed of a seemingly Endless Number of Dimensions,

indeed, it is a MULTIVERSE"

...................................................................................


And now .. On Panel!


Beyonder's top feat


Creating from nothingness ... the Beyond Realm
(a Reality quintillions of times more infinite, than the infinite prime Multiverse)

........................................................................................


Beyonder CREATING/BECOMING the INFINITE Beyond:


http://img283.imageshack.us/img283/8944/buni2ke0.th.jpg

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/9502/buni3oe1so5.th.jpg

http://img283.imageshack.us/img283/6076/buni4xn9.th.jpg

"Masses form in the Void, Stars, Suns, and Planets ... LIFE Arises"

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/4980/b3oz3.th.jpg

"Meeting NO resistance in the INFINITE BEYOND"

........................................................................................

http://img468.imageshack.us/img468/5558/buni5it5.th.jpg

"Evolves and Flourishes Within the New Universe,
BEGAT (brought into existence) by Beyonder's Power"

"Mortal Beings giving meaning to the INFINITY in which they dwell"

........................................................................................

swank

Btw. This infinity is actually an uberdiculous Multiverse:

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/4372/beyonderismultikh8.th.jpg

"Beyonder, the entity that embodied all the substance of Another Multiverse"

........................................................................................


Just like Writer/Editor in-Chief, Jim Shooter stated in his interview.

Would u say he stalemates MoM, good friend

Post Retcon Beyonder stands no chance against MoM

Originally posted by guy222

Would u say he stalemates MoM, good friend
Yes.

Supreme being vs Supreme being = stalemate.
Originally posted by guy222

Post Retcon Beyonder stands no chance against MoM

Some of your scans dont work.
Cool though.

Originally posted by TrollDog

Some of your scans dont work.
You sure? I just went through all of them,
try again, it could be your side of the server at the moment.
Which one is not working though?
I'll PM you a new crop, it's no problem.

Originally posted by Mr Master
You sure? I just went through all of them,
try again, it could be your side of the server at the moment.
Which one is not working though?
I'll PM you a new crop, it's no problem. Sorry bro, Must be my comp.
They all work fine.

We know vary little of MoM, though just the spawn verse (spawn the comic book series), takes place in a multiverse. And MoM so far represents the single most powerful being in the Spawn series.

MOM would win because she has no flaws. Beyonder had flaws. MOM had none.

Originally posted by King Kandy
MOM would win because she has no flaws. Beyonder had flaws. MOM had none.
I agree.

The only flaws Beyonder had,
were the one's he imposed on himself. (self-induced limitations)

Beyonder was "God" before there was "Genesis" (creation event)

Therefore, Beyonder was a Supreme Being!
Originally posted by Mr Master

Supreme being vs Supreme being = stalemate.

Supreme beings do not have flaws.

The only flaws Beyonder had,
were the one's he imposed on himself. (self-induced limitations)

Beyonder was "God" before there was "Genesis" (creation event)

Therefore, Beyonder was a Supreme Being!
Originally posted by Mr Master

Supreme being vs Supreme being = stalemate.

supreme beings do not "discover" someone elses creation. they simply are the creator.

Originally posted by fangirl101
supreme beings do not "discover" someone elses creation. they simply are the creator.

So your saying MoM created Marvel then?

Originally posted by GN.
So your saying MoM created Marvel then?

Um Beyonder sure as HELL didn't create marvel. I think you've lost.

Originally posted by fangirl101
Um Beyonder sure as HELL didn't create marvel. I think you've lost.

And i said that when? Beyonder is outside the Marvel universe.

Originally posted by GN.
And i said that when? Beyonder is outside the Marvel universe.

And yet for some reason, the beyonder appeared on Marvel Universe pages. Created by guess who? TOAA.

Stalemate, if this is the pre-retcon version

Originally posted by fangirl101
And yet for some reason, the beyonder appeared on Marvel Universe pages. Created by guess who? TOAA.

So if the Presence came in the Marvel universe he woudent be omnipotent anymore? Your logic is to flawed.

Originally posted by GN.
So if the Presence came in the Marvel universe he woudent be omnipotent anymore? Your logic is to flawed.

No. You obviously don't understand my logic. In order for the beyonder to be omnipotent and a supreme diety, he'd have to have a wrealm in which to rule. An omniverse of sorts. He has none. He himself is part of the marvel omnireality. Which means ALL, everything. He certainly is a property of marvel and thus he cannot be supreme if he didn't create marvel and only discovered it.

So basically, in 83 the Beyonder was the Supreme being, in an omniverse much bigger than ours?

yippee .....another my god is better than your god thread......

Originally posted by celestialdemon

Stalemate, if this is the pre-retcon version

Originally posted by llagrok

So basically, in 84-86 the Beyonder was the Supreme being,
in an omniverse much bigger than ours?
... and fixed.

Originally posted by llagrok
So basically, in 83 the Beyonder was the Supreme being, in an omniverse much bigger than ours?
Or he was the supreme being of marvel and yet he didnt' create marvel and had only had self discovery and discovered the Marvel multiverse. The supreme being of marvel doesn't know his own creations?

By ours, I meant the marvel verse.

Thanks Master.

Originally posted by fangirl101

Or he was the supreme being of marvel and yet he didnt' create marvel
and had only had self discovery and discovered the Marvel multiverse.
The supreme being of marvel doesn't know his own creations?
But your ignoring the fact friend,
that the reason Beyonder didn't notice the Marvelverse,
was because it was so insignificant to him.

It took a major event just for him to notice. (the creation of Molecule Man > LT)


I hate analogies,

but it's like a single celled organism trying to get a Human being's attention,
look at it that way,
when Owen Reece had his accident,
finally the single celled organism was able to shout, HEY LOOK!!! We're over HERE!!! (sorta speak)

Originally posted by Mr Master
But your ignoring the fact friend,
that the reason Beyonder didn't notice the Marvelverse,
was because it was so insignificant to him.

It took a major event just for him to notice. (the creation of Molecule Man > LT)


I hate analogies,

but it's like a single celled organism trying to get a Human being's attention,
look at it that way,
when Owen Reece had his accident,
finally the single celled organism was able to shout, HEY LOOK!!! We're over HERE!!! (sorta speak)
Doesn't matter how insignifigant it was to him. He didn't create the Multiverse. Thus he wasn't that eras supreme being. He being a creation himself is proof of that.

Originally posted by fangirl101

Doesn't matter how insignifigant it was to him.
He didn't create the Multiverse.
Thus he wasn't that eras supreme being.
True that,

Beyonder did not create that drop of water

Beyonder created the Ocean surrounding that drop.

Originally posted by fangirl101

He being a creation himself is proof of that.
Actually, if we're speaking withIN comics,
then Beyonder wasn't created by anyone, Beyonder always was, like God.

I think I understand fangirl's point (which is worrying as most of the time s/he seems absurd) and it's actually quite a fundamental one.

supreme being traits include (and must include) OMNISCIENCE and OMNIPRESENCE. to discover anything is an impossibility, logically, if the being doing the discovery is in actuality supreme.

it's why all mono-theistic religions with a free-will/test/reward motif fall flat on their faces.

the best that can be speculated, imo, is that The Beyonder did indeed create everything within and without his realm, but that at some point decided to annex off a infinitesimally minute speck of it and leave it to evolve/develop according to his ideas, then he went and wiped from his mind all memory of such an existence and time and sent himself to sleep to re-awaken as The Beyonder (Pre-retcon) whom we have come to see as the most powerful being ever in Marvel history.

this way, TOAA would basically be Beyonder... which is convenient as we've never seen TOAA (as far as I'm aware) and it would also fit Beyonder's character of repeatedly attempting to "get" humanity/mortality/the world/existence of the finite and inferior... because he can be nothing other than supreme, it requires a pretence or a "forgetting" to even begin to experience anything else.

man of miracles. nothing has beenshown greater in the spawnverse. although, i dont remember whether the multiverse of MoM had infinite universes or not, it atleast had more than a few though.

Originally posted by janus77
I think I understand fangirl's point (which is worrying as most of the time s/he seems absurd) and it's actually quite a fundamental one.

supreme being traits include (and must include) OMNISCIENCE and OMNIPRESENCE. to discover anything is an impossibility, logically, if the being doing the discovery is in actuality supreme.

it's why all mono-theistic religions with a free-will/test/reward motif fall flat on their faces.

the best that can be speculated, imo, is that The Beyonder did indeed create everything within and without his realm, but that at some point decided to annex off a infinitesimally minute speck of it and leave it to evolve/develop according to his ideas, then he went and wiped from his mind all memory of such an existence and time and sent himself to sleep to re-awaken as The Beyonder (Pre-retcon) whom we have come to see as the most powerful being ever in Marvel history.

this way, TOAA would basically be Beyonder... which is convenient as we've never seen TOAA (as far as I'm aware) and it would also fit Beyonder's character of repeatedly attempting to "get" humanity/mortality/the world/existence of the finite and inferior... because he can be nothing other than supreme, it requires a pretence or a "forgetting" to even begin to experience anything else.
The only problem with this theory is that the beyonder himself cannot be the TOAA as he was retconned by TOAA. We all know TOAA can never be retconned.

Originally posted by fangirl101
The only problem with this theory is that the beyonder himself cannot be the TOAA as he was retconned by TOAA. We all know TOAA can never be retconned.
well no, the implication of that theory would be that Beyonder is repeatedly attempting to be something less than he is (the supreme being), thus the "retcon" would merely be yet another attempt at recreating everything on a scale more suitable to his aims/objectives.

Beyonder would be both TOAA (some part/aspect of his consciousness left separate and operational at trans-Marvel levels) and Beyonder (another, intentionally limited aspect of consciousness operating within established parameters) within Marvel.

Originally posted by janus77

I think I understand fangirl's point (which is worrying as most of the time s/he seems absurd) and it's actually quite a fundamental one.

supreme being traits include (and must include) OMNISCIENCE and OMNIPRESENCE. to discover anything is an impossibility, logically, if the being doing the discovery is in actuality supreme.

it's why all mono-theistic religions with a free-will/test/reward motif fall flat on their faces.

the best that can be speculated, imo, is that The Beyonder did indeed create everything within and without his realm, but that at some point decided to annex off a infinitesimally minute speck of it and leave it to evolve/develop according to his ideas, then he went and wiped from his mind all memory of such an existence and time and sent himself to sleep to re-awaken as The Beyonder (Pre-retcon) whom we have come to see as the most powerful being ever in Marvel history.

this way, TOAA would basically be Beyonder... which is convenient as we've never seen TOAA (as far as I'm aware) and it would also fit Beyonder's character of repeatedly attempting to "get" humanity/mortality/the world/existence of the finite and inferior... because he can be nothing other than supreme, it requires a pretence or a "forgetting" to even begin to experience anything else.
That's a brilliant theory, sincerely I enjoyed that,
sounds sweet, and I would've like it if it were true.

But actually Starlin placed Beyonder completely outside,
dis-connected from the Marvelverse.

Sounds silly but let's say, like another company (Beyonder) blending into the Marvelverse,
one way I can describe in my own words what Shooter said.

So another reason Beyonder didn't notice the Marvelverse,
was because the Marvelverse was not part of the Beyond Realm,
it was that speck yes, but a speck disconnected but ever so close.

If a breach between realities had not been pricked open,
they would've continued existing oblivious to each other.


Here's Starlin's word on it,
tell me your take from this:

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/7402/jim2mj1.th.jpg


I particularly enjoyed the part where Shooter states
the Beyonder even discovered him as part of the Paramecium,
swimming in a drop of water that was the infinite Marvelverse.

Originally posted by Mr Master
That's a brilliant theory, sincerely I enjoyed that,
sounds sweet, and I would've like it if it were true.

But actually Starlin placed Beyonder completely outside,
dis-connected from the Marvelverse.

Sounds silly but let's say, like another company (Beyonder) blending into the Marvelverse,
one way I can describe in my own words what Shooter said.

So another reason Beyonder didn't notice the Marvelverse,
was because the Marvelverse was not part of the Beyond Realm,
it was that speck yes, but a speck disconnected but ever so close.

If a breach between realities had not been pricked open,
they would've continued existing oblivious to each other.


Here's Starlin's word on it,
tell me your take from this:

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/7402/jim2mj1.th.jpg


I particularly enjoyed the part where Shooter states
the Beyonder even discovered him as part of the Paramecium,
swimming in a drop of water that was the infinite Marvelverse.
thanks, I'd like to take all the credit for that idea but, most of it's inspired by what a great many writers/google-video theorists, have been talking about with respect to being and god and infinity.

I think that's what attracted me to cosmic-comics, their hierarchies and topology and mythos all provide an interesting avenue for thinking about metaphysical matters more 'concretely'.


from that quote, it sounds like The Beyonder was not so much supreme as independent and self-sufficient. he needed for no other power, no other beginning (nor end) but himself. it would be more in-keeping with the idea of a space of multiple Gods, who each either inhabit and manifest some fragment of an underlying 'verse or are discrete and separate fabrics that exist in absolute nothingness.

that's more of a polytheistic take, but it of necessity reduces him/any god at all, down to something less than supreme and definitely takes away omniscience and omnipresence.

like say the Greek pantheon, they're gods they create, guide and control life, of lower order creatures, but they in-turn are the playthings of forces beyond them.

in sum:
Beyonder and the Marvel Universe both exist as 'sets' either as independent sets (in which case you invent an absolute nothingness with which to delineate them) or as subsets of a more essential and primal universe (say our reality?), in which case any "god" within either of the sub-sets (Beyonder or MU) would be defined as being less-than supreme.

Hey, you lost me there a bit buddy, you're speculating a little too much now.
I like your ideas, but they're not really relating to Marvel comics entirely.

It's simple.

There's Two realities:

1. the Marvelverse (including the LT, Eternity and ... even Jim Shooter)

2. the Beyond Realm (everything outside the Marvelverse)

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/6606/beyondspacetime2pq7.th.jpg



The Marvelverse is an infinite Multiverse, (droplet)

but in comparison with the grander of the Beyond Realm, (ocean)

it's like a drop of water to an the ocean.

http://img387.imageshack.us/img387/197/bekw8.th.jpg



And yes, "Our Own" Universe is the Infinite Multiverse:

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/7222/beyonderexploresthemulitverseoy9.th.jpg

(that's Shooter talking, remember in his interview he placed himself as part of the Marvelverse)

That's it.

what you state there is exactly what the quote says, what I was talking of goes more towards the technical definition of Supreme being and the metaphysics that goes with it (questions of omniscience and such), which is more than the comics can support (and not their intended purpose either).

the relations are as you state, the problem is that if there exists (in any reality whatsoever) an unknown and independent quantity, then the being discovering that state of affairs (The Beyonder) has just also discovered that he is not omniscient (and thus, by implication that he ma not be omnipotent).

I guess, if we include our own reality, then we're positing a limited conception of infinite/supreme (paradoxical but acceptible within the parameters of comic thinking), in which case Beyonder is closer to true omniscience and other qualities of a Supreme being, within the confines of comics, than any other marvel character we've witnessed.

Originally posted by fangirl101
And yet for some reason, the beyonder appeared on Marvel Universe pages. Created by guess who? TOAA. Beyonder technically predates the TOAA doesn't he?

In terms of when they were shown/mentioned?

TOAA is the writers... so of course he predates Beyonder. Beyonder had flaws up the wazoo. He limited his power but he was always a fool.

I meant he predates the concept of the TOAA.

What concept? TOAA isn't part of comics in the first place.