The universe more complex?

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



Da Pittman

Shakyamunison
I think the universe is more complex then the Christian god.

Symmetric Chaos

Da Pittman
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Looked at another way that would make a single human as complex as everything in 1/5 of the universe. OK, I will go hide my head in shame now sad

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Da Pittman
OK, I will go hide my head in shame now sad

Get back here. mad

Da Pittman
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Get back here. mad pitt_dance

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Da Pittman
pitt_dance

You started the thread, you have to stay with it. stick out tongue

Mindship

Da Pittman
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
You started the thread, you have to stay with it. stick out tongue Then irule

DigiMark007
I think that trying to interpret Old Testament mythology as literal fact will get you into all sorts of theological nonsense.

Even as metaphor, say we make one day = billions of years, it doesn't make much sense to make a mathematical model after it. I'm not sure it would make any theological or philosophical point, and would neither validate nor refute any religious belief. It's like asking how Orpheus survived without food or water during his descent to the underworld and back...it removes the story of its meaning.

Now, saying that the vastness of the cosmos shames most religious conceptions of the universe, with Earth and Man as their priciple players, is an entirely valid statement, though obviously just an opinion.

....

On a literal level though, yes the universe is more complex. In terms of raw genetic informaiton, there's other species alone that are more complex than humans (we're just ahead of the others cognitively), so you really don't even have to leave the planet to answer the question.

ushomefree
I think an apple is more complex than the Cosmos and man, because, if you and I take the first letter of each word--the "a" in apple, for instance--than apple falls first alphabetically! Hence, the apple must be more complex, than the Cosmos and man--it is first! Truth is subjective, so respect my view. Thanks. smile

Da Pittman
Originally posted by ushomefree
I think an apple is more complex than the Cosmos and man, because, if you and I take the first letter of each word--the "a" in apple, for instance--than apple falls first alphabetically! Hence, the apple must be more complex, than the Cosmos and man--it is first! Truth is subjective, so respect my view. Thanks. smile And I say what? That makes no sense at all, and how about respecting others views for a change wink

ushomefree
What?! That is a great point! The word "apple," contains the letter, "a," corresponding to the first letter of the alphabet. Cosmos and man--in lieu of their first letters--are secondary to "a," in "apple!" Hence, "apples" are more complex than the Cosmos and mankind, since Cosmos begins with, "C," and "mankind," with "m!" Prove me wrong!! But you can't because truth is subjective; my opinion is just a valid as yours. So, their is no need for debate, right?!

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by ushomefree
What?! That is a great point! The word "apple," contains the letter, "a," corresponding to the first letter of the alphabet. Cosmos and man--in lieu of their first letters--are secondary to "a," in "apple!" Hence, "apples" are more complex than the Cosmos and mankind, since Cosmos begins with, "C," and "mankind," with "m!" Prove me wrong!! But you can't because truth is subjective; my opinion is just a valid as yours. So, their is no need for debate, right?!

Truth is subjective. Facts are not. You have failed to understand the meaning of the word complexity (an objective established fact). It cannot be determined by first letters.

There are certainly very good examples of the point you want to make but I think it's a fair bet they are beyond your capacity.

ushomefree
But truth is subjective?! How is it that you can make an "objective" statement, if truth is "subjective"? My opinion/view is just as valid as yours!

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by ushomefree
What?! That is a great point! The word "apple," contains the letter, "a," corresponding to the first letter of the alphabet. Cosmos and man--in lieu of their first letters--are secondary to "a," in "apple!" Hence, "apples" are more complex than the Cosmos and mankind, since Cosmos begin with, "C," and "mankind," with "m!" Prove me wrong!! But you can't because truth is subjective; my opinion is just a valid as yours. So, their is no need for debate, right?!

You really don't understand what subjective truth means. Wrong is not a subjective truth. Now, I understand why you need an absolute truth. roll eyes (sarcastic) Subjective truth looks just like absolute truth except it changes relative to the circumstances, or point of view.

Your silly alphabet thing is not an example of subjective truth, because it is not true from any perspective. An example of subjective truth would be something like it is wrong to murder, but it is ok to kill in time of war. Killing in time of war can be seen as murder from the point of view of the mother (loved ones) of the person being killed, but not murder by the person doing the killing.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by ushomefree
But truth is subjective?! How is it that you can make an "objective" statement, if truth is "subjective"? My opinion/view is just as valid as yours!

lulz

ushomefree
Shaky... stop making "objective" statements; they are irrelevant--or I think, since, truth is subjective? But what makes your opinion/view better (truthful) than mine? Truth is subjective, right? This is my perception of truth! And, it is the "truth"--my truth! It is just the same as yours--just as valid. Stop being "exclusive."

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by ushomefree
Shaky... stop making "objective" statements; they are irrelevant--or I think, since, truth is subjective? But what makes your opinion/view better (truthful) than mine? Truth is subjective, right? This is my perception of truth! And, it is the "truth"--my truth! It is just the same as yours--just as valid. Stop being "exclusive."

ushomefree, I never said that absolute truth does not exist. Both, absolute and subjective truth do exist. However, some people confuse one for the other. I gave you an example of a subjective truth, now let me give you an example of absolute truth. One day you will die. It doesn't matter if your soul lives on; I'm talking about your physical body. You will die; that is an absolute truth.

Now, will you please stop talking past me?

ushomefree
I am going to bed now. Oh... wait... I'm not--oh wait, I am! Hmm... I guess I am, since truth is subjective. But I can never be sure; this is simply my truth (of the notion). Frustration, hello! Oh brother... I must not, must not, must not be "objective." Objectivity does not exist! Oh shoot... their I go... making an objective statement. Man, I really don't know what to believe. Oops... their I go again! Sheesh!! How foolish of me? Dare I question?!

DigiMark007
So now you're openly trolling, ushome? Reported. What a jerk.

chickenlover98
Originally posted by ushomefree
But truth is subjective?! How is it that you can make an "objective" statement, if truth is "subjective"? My opinion/view is just as valid as yours! because its subjected to society and people with common sense. you take part in neither, therefore you fail stick out tongue

chickenlover98
Originally posted by ushomefree
Shaky... stop making "objective" statements; they are irrelevant--or I think, since, truth is subjective? But what makes your opinion/view better (truthful) than mine? Truth is subjective, right? This is my perception of truth! And, it is the "truth"--my truth! It is just the same as yours--just as valid. Stop being "exclusive." his truth is better than yours because he isnt an idiot

chickenlover98
Originally posted by DigiMark007
So now you're openly trolling, ushome? Reported. What a jerk. its like he's.....an idiot *thoughtful look*

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by ushomefree
I am going to bed now. Oh... wait... I'm not--oh wait, I am! Hmm... I guess I am, since truth is subjective. But I can never be sure; this is simply my truth (of the notion). Frustration, hello! Oh brother... I must not, must not, must not be "objective." Objectivity does not exist! Oh shoot... their I go... making an objective statement. Man, I really don't know what to believe. Oops... their I go again! Sheesh!! How foolish of me? Dare I question?!

Are you hi on pot?

You know, you miss out on a lot when you don't read.

Da Pittman
Originally posted by ushomefree
What?! That is a great point! The word "apple," contains the letter, "a," corresponding to the first letter of the alphabet. Cosmos and man--in lieu of their first letters--are secondary to "a," in "apple!" Hence, "apples" are more complex than the Cosmos and mankind, since Cosmos begins with, "C," and "mankind," with "m!" Prove me wrong!! But you can't because truth is subjective; my opinion is just a valid as yours. So, their is no need for debate, right?! OK, thanks to everyone for helping me understand what he was trying to get at because I seriously thought that he lost it with this example. messed

And the derailing begins laughing

Jbill311
So changing your mind leads to subjective truth? I REALLY hope that he (she?) was being facetious.

chithappens
Opinions can never be objective. Facts are objective.

Stop making this shit difficult

DigiMark007
When I teach literature, it's always interesting to see at what stage they grasp the concept of subjective interpretation (most already have by the time I have them). So long as they have passages from the text to support their position, it can be considered a provisionally true statement. Substitute "passages from the text" for "empirical evidence" and it actually sounds a lot like science. The end result is that you can view a character, text, theme, ambiguity, etc. from multiple perspectives, each as valid as the other.

Then there's the kid who throws an asinine opinion out there and claims that I told him/her "there are no wrong answers." No, there are. I ask the student to justify their position. A long pause, an embarrassed face, and perhaps a stammered (blatantly incorrect) response later, followed by random giggles throughout the class, and most understand the point.

Let's only hope ushome has the same revelation. Though I doubt it. The perceived absolute objectivity of religion is a warm blanket for many, regardless of its fallacious nature.

chithappens
Well put. What level do you teach? I'm actually going to be a middle school English teacher in about three years so I will probably have this problem laughing out loud

DigiMark007
Originally posted by chithappens
Well put. What level do you teach? I'm actually going to be a middle school English teacher in about three years so I will probably have this problem laughing out loud

High school, so when I get it, it's usually just some kid being a jerk-off...not actually misunderstanding the concept. Though occasionally I wonder, because the stupidity of people can shock anyone.

Middle school'ers are more apt to make things up without realizing there's no basis for it. So it's not a misunderstanding of subjective interpretation, just a (largely understandable) ignorance of it, since abstractions like that are a bit tougher for them. They'll form opinions without even considering the need for textual justification, and also want to "know the answer" without dealing in ambiguities.

Good luck though, with (I would assume) your current degree and eventual career.

smile

chithappens
Originally posted by DigiMark007
High school, so when I get it, it's usually just some kid being a jerk-off...not actually misunderstanding the concept. Though occasionally I wonder, because the stupidity of people can shock anyone.

Middle school'ers are more apt to make things up without realizing there's no basis for it. So it's not a misunderstanding of subjective interpretation, just a (largely understandable) ignorance of it, since abstractions like that are a bit tougher for them. They'll form opinions without even considering the need for textual justification, and also want to "know the answer" without dealing in ambiguities.

Good luck though, with (I would assume) your current degree and eventual career.

smile

I do feel as if I will have to deal with that same issue. In fact, it was talking to people in college who could not form valid opinions, like seen here, that made me decide to teach English. Those who can not provide evidence for their opinions are poor critical thinkers and often times this is a result of poor reading skills. It's exactly as you said above.

chickenlover98
Originally posted by DigiMark007
High school, so when I get it, it's usually just some kid being a jerk-off...not actually misunderstanding the concept. Though occasionally I wonder, because the stupidity of people can shock anyone.

Middle school'ers are more apt to make things up without realizing there's no basis for it. So it's not a misunderstanding of subjective interpretation, just a (largely understandable) ignorance of it, since abstractions like that are a bit tougher for them. They'll form opinions without even considering the need for textual justification, and also want to "know the answer" without dealing in ambiguities.

Good luck though, with (I would assume) your current degree and eventual career.

smile like i said teach at my school, id love for you to meet/punch trans big grin

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by chickenlover98
like i said teach at my school, id love for you to meet/punch trans big grin

Punch and cookies? cool

Da Pittman
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Punch and cookies? cool Punch your cookies evil face

DigiMark007
Originally posted by chickenlover98
like i said teach at my school, id love for you to meet/punch trans big grin

Oh, that's not quite right. School isn't the place to get into protracted arguments about such things. Kids have all sorts of interesting (and wrong) opinions. Occasional discussion is acceptable, but if I treated them like I debate on KMC I'd probably lose my job in a hurry.

He'd be like "the sun revolves around the earth."
My response would be something like "well that's nice. No one really agrees, but be quiet and do your work." Then if he persisted, I'd write him up.

Da Pittman
Originally posted by DigiMark007
Oh, that's not quite right. School isn't the place to get into protracted arguments about such things. Kids have all sorts of interesting (and wrong) opinions. Occasional discussion is acceptable, but if I treated them like I debate on KMC I'd probably lose my job in a hurry.

He'd be like "the sun revolves around the earth."
My response would be something like "well that's nice. No one really agrees, but be quiet and do your work." Then if he persisted, I'd write him up. Or beat him with your big stick laughing

DigiMark007
http://www.qwantz.com/archive/000836.html

Holy crap guys. It's like God was watching our discussion and decided to help me out.

313

Da Pittman
Originally posted by DigiMark007
http://www.qwantz.com/archive/000836.html

Holy crap guys. It's like God was watching our discussion and decided to help me out.

313 laughing laughing

chithappens
I was explaining that very thing to someone about the man-made construct of time, LOL

leonheartmm
truth is subjective, since the point of view is that of an individual. ofcourse, individuals have sumthing in common including basic human traist/nature and biases and well as intellect. hence there is a level to which the idea of subjectivity can be stretched before it starts sounding silly and untrue, coming from the mouth of a HUMAN. if you rent human and dont have the basic defining traits of humans, then ofcourse you may stretch is much farther from your subjective point of view.

ushomefree
To all KMC members-

For better or worse, I have never subscribed to the notion that truth is (or was) "subjective." Frankly, I am surprised that no one called me out on the act--playing devil's advocate! People... truth is "objective," not because it is convenient, but because it is necessary for man's survival, amongst other things. Traffic signals were formulated for a reason, and it ain't subjectivity. Truth is not determined by the eye of the beholder! A man will die, regardless of the fact, that he may think (and feel), that he is immortal. In any case, "if" truth were subjective, no one on the entire forum would have an argument. What's to talk about and/or debate?! Truth is subjective; truth is determined by the eye of the beholder. All opinions/perspectives are utterly, completely valid. What a scary world, indeed.

chithappens
Look slaw dawg, that was a terrible attempt to prove yourself right:

Truth is subjective. With the street light, yes I have an option to decide if I want to decide if it's "true" that I should stop. But since other people follow the road, I just made a decision to heighten the likely hood me getting hit by a car.

It is not a fact that all people will stop. Theoretically, if they know the system, they will stop but it's not 100 % guaranteed. Some people have been playing too much GTA IV.

ushomefree
I can't entertain this. Amazing. I appreciate your opinion. I really do. You presented it with respect, and I sure that you meant well, but I do not have the time for this. I'm really, really sorry. I mean no disrespect!

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by ushomefree
To all KMC members-

For better or worse, I have never subscribed to the notion that truth is (or was) "subjective." Frankly, I am surprised that no one called me out on the act--playing devil's advocate! People... truth is "objective," not because it is convenient, but because it is necessary for man's survival, amongst other things. Traffic signals were formulated for a reason, and it ain't subjectivity. Truth is not determined by the eye of the beholder! A man will die, regardless of the fact, that he may think (and feel), that he is immortal. In any case, "if" truth were subjective, no one on the entire forum would have an argument. What's to talk about and/or debate?! Truth is subjective; truth is determined by the eye of the beholder. All opinions/perspectives are utterly, completely valid. What a scary world, indeed.

You're an incredible idiot.

Truth is subjective. Facts remain objective. Debate is about how accurate the interpretation being made is. Worse for you, even if truth were an objective absolute it would still be unprovable and leave everyone in the same position.

ushomefree
Symmetric Chaos-

If truth is subjective, how is it, that you are able to make an objective statement?

chithappens
No one can make an objective "moral" statement.

Objective statements are saying stuff like "the world is round" or "ice is cold." But that is not an opinion.

Damn, feel like I'm teaching a class of chimney sweepers in 18th century England.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by ushomefree
To all KMC members-

For better or worse, I have never subscribed to the notion that truth is (or was) "subjective." Frankly, I am surprised that no one called me out on the act--playing devil's advocate! People... truth is "objective," not because it is convenient, but because it is necessary for man's survival, amongst other things. Traffic signals were formulated for a reason, and it ain't subjectivity. Truth is not determined by the eye of the beholder! A man will die, regardless of the fact, that he may think (and feel), that he is immortal. In any case, "if" truth were subjective, no one on the entire forum would have an argument. What's to talk about and/or debate?! Truth is subjective; truth is determined by the eye of the beholder. All opinions/perspectives are utterly, completely valid. What a scary world, indeed.

Originally posted by ushomefree
I am going to bed now. Oh... wait... I'm not--oh wait, I am! Hmm... I guess I am, since truth is subjective. But I can never be sure; this is simply my truth (of the notion). Frustration, hello! Oh brother... I must not, must not, must not be "objective." Objectivity does not exist! Oh shoot... their I go... making an objective statement. Man, I really don't know what to believe. Oops... their I go again! Sheesh!! How foolish of me? Dare I question?!

Why should I talk to you?

DigiMark007
Originally posted by ushomefree
To all KMC members-

For better or worse, I have never subscribed to the notion that truth is (or was) "subjective." Frankly, I am surprised that no one called me out on the act--playing devil's advocate! People... truth is "objective," not because it is convenient, but because it is necessary for man's survival, amongst other things. Traffic signals were formulated for a reason, and it ain't subjectivity. Truth is not determined by the eye of the beholder! A man will die, regardless of the fact, that he may think (and feel), that he is immortal. In any case, "if" truth were subjective, no one on the entire forum would have an argument. What's to talk about and/or debate?! Truth is subjective; truth is determined by the eye of the beholder. All opinions/perspectives are utterly, completely valid. What a scary world, indeed.

You haven't read one thing since you first started spamming this thread, have you? You don't have the slightest grasp of what subjectivity really means, as is evidenced by any of your posts. Knock down your ridiculous straw man all you want. You haven't made one logically valid statement in this entire thread.

Also, devil's advocate?! No, that would be giving you too much credit. I called you what you are: a worthless troll. This is off-topic, sarcastic, baiting, and spam. It's also condescending, but we'll let that slide since it's not an overt insult.

It's just a pity my report wasn't attended to...means we have to put up with more of your crap.

Storm

Da Pittman
Where did my thread go no expression

leonheartmm
Originally posted by ushomefree
To all KMC members-

For better or worse, I have never subscribed to the notion that truth is (or was) "subjective." Frankly, I am surprised that no one called me out on the act--playing devil's advocate! People... truth is "objective," not because it is convenient, but because it is necessary for man's survival, amongst other things. Traffic signals were formulated for a reason, and it ain't subjectivity. Truth is not determined by the eye of the beholder! A man will die, regardless of the fact, that he may think (and feel), that he is immortal. In any case, "if" truth were subjective, no one on the entire forum would have an argument. What's to talk about and/or debate?! Truth is subjective; truth is determined by the eye of the beholder. All opinions/perspectives are utterly, completely valid. What a scary world, indeed.

dude, every1 knows you were acting for heaven;s sake. i was simply trying to call out the incorrectness in your sarcastic stance, which you were trying ot disredict the subjective nature of reality. reality IS subjective but all humans also have many things which are SIMILAR in their perspectives which form the basis of communication of ideas and symbolism. it also formulates the idea of {ideally} laws and general behaviour etc. people can argue on the things on which they are NOT similar but they will INEVITABLY have many basic things which ARE simmilar, without which they wudnt be human. also, learning has a great part to play in making us understand the commom meaning of ideas and words exchanged.

but do remember that this view is STILL subjective, as it holds ONLY for humans and not most other species or perhaps beings or sentiences which arent bound by the same basic concepts as us {i.e existance/self preservation/drive to be loved and love others/etc etc etc}.

Mindship
Originally posted by Da Pittman
Where did my thread go no expression
Where did Da Pittman's thread go?
Long time passing
Where did Da Pittman's thread go?
Long time ago
Where did Da Pittman's thread go?
KMC squabbling, dontcha know
When will they ever learn?
When will they ever learn?

Da Pittman
Originally posted by Mindship
Where did Da Pittman's thread go?
Long time passing
Where did Da Pittman's thread go?
Long time ago
Where did Da Pittman's thread go?
KMC squabbling, dontcha know
When will they ever learn?
When will they ever learn? laughing Putting that in my profile laughing

Mindship
Originally posted by Da Pittman
laughing Putting that in my profile laughing I am honored. respect

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.