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Just wondering what everyone thinks. Where do these two uber artifacts stand when compared?


I'm leaning towards the heart myself, but it could be a tie. How about everyone else?

Get out.

Was that a vote for the heart or the sword?

lol

...I don't know what to say.

what is the sword of superman ?

Erm. . .it was a sword created at the dawn of time. . .when sup's started to merge with it supposedly he was turning into "eternity" or something like that. Let me see if I can find some scans.

wow, i have never heard anything like that. What series was that?

Oh its a pre-crisis artifact so stupidly powerful. . .I don't remember the specific iissue numbers. I'm looking for some scans now.

OKay here are some scans. . .

Part 2

Part 3

Part 4

Part 5

Part 6

More. This is where he starts to absorb the sword. Not sure what happened with the scan.

Here he throws the sword away after only absorbing it up to the hilt. Says he was becoming everything . . .sort of a "cosmic protector" but he decides he doesn't want it and throws it into space.

It's a blown up thumbnail.

And here is the last scan they say that as Superman is merging with the sword he is becoming "one with the universe" an immortal, that he heard a voice only he could hear telling him that he had done good. I think it was supposed to be God. So anyways it ends with him throwing the sword into space where it waits for him to come and clame it one day.

Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist
It's a blown up thumbnail.


I tried to clear it up to no avail.

Anyway... HOTU, easily.

Heart could rape the entire dcu at once with ease.

lol

Originally posted by Lord Feron
lol No hes right hotu could beat all dcu at once.

Originally posted by Lord Feron
lol It beat all of marvel at once.

The sword, obviously. none

Originally posted by TrollDog
No hes right hotu could beat all dcu at once.

The arc angel and lucifer might not agree with that.

Originally posted by fangirl101
The arc angel and lucifer might not agree with that.

Yeah. They might already have been absorbed by then.

Originally posted by Ouallada
Yeah. They might already have been absorbed by then. Both Mike and HOTI = God's power. To say one if them is more powerful than the other is to say 'God (a)' is more powerful than 'God (b)'. To say the above, is to also say one company in greater than the other. And to say any of the aforementioned, is to express an extreme bias.

imo.

MY "lol" was not in disagreement! It was just funny i think.. I don't think there is enough material or feats of the sword to really say its greater. So HOTI ftw.

Originally posted by Galan007
Both Mike and HOTI = God's power. To say one if them is more powerful than the other is to say 'God (a)' is more powerful than 'God (b)'. To say the above, is to also say one company in greater than the other. And to say any of the aforementioned, is to express an extreme bias.

imo.

Mike isn't equal to God by any stretch of the imagination because he lacks Lucifer's mental attributes. The Hotu puts its user at least on Michael's power level, and endows at least some form of omniscience, as seen in Thanos' epiphany. I wouldn't say that Michael = God. Would you? To say so would be an extreme lack of logic.

Imo.

Originally posted by Ouallada
Mike isn't equal to God by any stretch of the imagination because he lacks Lucifer's mental attributes. The Hotu puts its user at least on Michael's power level, and endows at least some form of omniscience, as seen in Thanos' epiphany. I wouldn't say that Michael = God. Would you? To say so would be an extreme lack of logic.

Imo. I said they both = God's power - meaning one of them logically could not beat the other, if they were to battle. Nothing more.

Sword and pretty easily actually.

Originally posted by Galan007
I said they both = God's power - meaning one of them logically could not beat the other, if they were to battle. Nothing more.

Thanos dismissed Eternity as his intellectual inferior, claims that he is everything that God is, and achieves a cosmic understanding of the natural order of things before sacrificing himself. More than enough to show that he had a markedly high level of omniscience. Meaning that the Hotu grants more than just power. Nothing more, nothing less.

By saying that Micheal cannot be beaten in combat is erroneous. Would he stalemate TOAA based on being equally powerful?

Originally posted by fangirl101
The arc angel and lucifer might not agree with that.
Too bad, 'cause there isn't much he could do about it.

Originally posted by Ouallada
Thanos dismissed Eternity as his intellectual inferior, claims that he is everything that God is, and achieves a cosmic understanding of the natural order of things before sacrificing himself. More than enough to show that he had a markedly high level of omniscience. Meaning that the Hotu grants more than just power. Nothing more, nothing less. What does omniscience have to do with anything I was talking about?

Originally posted by Galan007
What does omniscience have to do with anything I was talking about?

Because the two facets of a supreme being in comics are omnipotence and omniscience. That has a lot to do with what I am talking about. Would Michael stalemate TOAA? I'm not asking who the more powerful is. I'm asking who would win.

Originally posted by Ouallada
Because the two facets of a supreme being in comics are omnipotence and omniscience. Omnipotence and omniscience can go hand in hand - if it is so willed.

Originally posted by Ouallada
Would Michael stalemate TOAA? I'm not asking who the more powerful is. I'm asking who would win. Thanos and Michael are both beings with the power of God - but lack his omniscience. And regardless of what you might believe, Thanos was not omniscient.

Originally posted by Galan007
Omnipotence and omniscience can go hand in hand - if it is so willed.

Thanos and Michael are both beings with the power of God - but lack his omniscience. And regardless of what you might believe, Thanos was not omniscient.

Whoever said they cannot?

I never said that Thanos was omniscient as per God, but he showed far higher degrees of cosmic knowledge than Michael ever did. That is even when partially ignoring his statement that he was essentially God. My question wasn't comparing TOAA with Hotu, but to show that power levels aren't the only deteminant, as you seem to be implying. Above question still stands.

As I understand it from the Michael respect thread:

Michael personifies "God's" power. (but he is still below the Presence)

THOTI on the other hand, makes you "God" period.

I'm not sure what Michael is over at DC,
but Thanos on panel became the Almighty Supreme Being, God!
his Marvel bio confirms Thanos became the "Supreme Being" (literally)
his Handbook references state he was God!
in Jim Starlin's interview,
Jim said: Thanos became God! and destroyed/recreated the Marvel Universe.

THOTI = the Presence, imo

On Panel, in stories integrated and connected into the DC & Marvel reality,
these are the Supreme powers of each Reality (THOTI/Presence)


But the true "Gods" of each Reality (DC/Marvel) are these below:

Kirbiesk/Lee (collaborator) - Avatars = (artists/writers) = Morrison/Carlin - Avatars.



Doesn't matter to me who would win, but that's my two cents.

^That is right. Michael was referred to as God's second, if I recall correctly. While I am not of the belief that Hotu = God, it doesn't matter here. Hotu has shown more than Michael has.

Originally posted by Ouallada

While I am not of the belief that Hotu = God
According to Marvel comics on panel and official Handbook & Marvel.com confirmation:

Thanos:

became the "one true Supreme Being" ...

"they proclaimed him God" ...


On Panel, Thanos/THOTI, Warlock, King Thor, Zeus, and even Eternity himself,
all stated Thanos had the Supreme Power.

Heck,
Eternity straight up and down acknowledged Thanos had become the Almighty Supreme being.

And on Thanos absorbed the LT, and the only power above the LT is TOAA.

Originally posted by Mr Master
According to Marvel comics on panel and official Handbook & Marvel.com confirmation:

Thanos:

became the "one true Supreme Being" ...

"they proclaimed him God" ...


On Panel, Thanos/THOTI, Warlock, King Thor, Zeus, and even Eternity himself,
all stated Thanos had the Supreme Power.

Heck,
Eternity straight up and down acknowledged Thanos had become the Almighty Supreme being.

And on Thanos absorbed the LT, and the only power above the LT is TOAA.

I understand all that. He was also stated on panel to embody everything that God is. My doubts come from the fact that he wasn't shown via feats to be exactly omniscient as God per se, and that the fact that he ended up doing the bidding of TOAA suggests that latter is greater, if only on a technicality. It doesn't mean that the Hotu is less powerful (this we know to be true) than God or that it does not grant God's omniscience (unproven through feats, only going on bios), but that one was an instrument of the other. To me, it works the same way as the moon landing. Armstrong and Aldrin both did the exact same thing, but the former is greater on a technicality.

How does one become God and over look someone? How does one become God and do someone elses bidding?

Originally posted by fangirl101

How does one become God and over look someone?
Thanos allowed Warlock to survive so Warlock could "witness" his "grand gesture"

That "grand gesture" being ... the healing/re-creation of Marvel.

Thanos allowed Mistress Death to survive, because that's his love,
and in the end, he admits that all he wanted was her appreciation at-least once,
and he got it after erasing reality, and then ultimately recreating it.

This falls in-line with Thanos' character, he's always acted sub-consciously.

Warlock literally told him so.


Originally posted by fangirl101

How does one become God and do someone elses bidding?
The Presence is also doing the bidding of the writers/artists (Morrison/Carlin-type avatars) of DC.

So ...

The Presence is just a drawing (or idea) on a piece of paper,
just like THOTI is.

The Morrison/Carlin/Kirbiesk-type avatars
are representatives of the artists/writers that create those drawings.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Thanos allowed Warlock to survive so Warlock could "witness" his "grand gesture"

That "grand gesture" being ... the healing/re-creation of Marvel.

Thanos allowed Mistress Death to survive, because that's his love,
and in the end, he admits that all he wanted was her appreciation at-least once,
and he got it after erasing reality, and then ultimately recreating it.

This falls in-line with Thanos' character, he's always acted sub-consciously.

Warlock literally told him so.



The Presence is also doing the bidding of the writers/artists (Morrison/Carlin-type avatars) of DC.

So ...

The Presence is just a drawing (or idea) on a piece of paper,
just like THOTI is.

The Morrison/Carlin/Kirbiesk-type avatars
are representatives of the artists/writers that create those drawings.
as i understood it, the presence is the writers and artist. it's the what is all around us and makes us but we can't see it driving force. i think that is why it's called the presence.

Originally posted by fangirl101

as i understood it, the presence is the writers and artist.
it's the what is all around us and makes us but we can't see it driving force.
i think that is why it's called the presence.
I disagree.


Actually, Morrison/Carlin avatars
and FF #511 avatars ... are the true Gods of Marvel and DC!

.................................................................................


The Morrison avatar (from animal man) is not the Presence,
that Morrison avatar is exactly what Toaa/God from FF#511 represented:

Real world artists/writers.


The Presence is a drawing,
an idea on a piece of paper that was created by this type of Morrison avatar.

The Presence is an entity that's intergrated into the DC divine reality,
he has family, aspects of himself, and even a polar opposite.


Morrison did not identify with his creation as an equal, opposite or inferior existence,
but rather as what they really are,
just a drawing on a piece of paper.

http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/4964/am1zz4.th.jpg


You must read the scan, or you'll end up in a dance of circles good friend.

.................................................................................


Just like Reed and the FF, Silver Surfer, Black Panther and even Galactus,
are just silly drawings on a piece of paper to the real OAA/God (writers/artists avatars)

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/6163/fantasticfour51119ze0.th.jpg

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/1171/fantasticfour51118em9jtto2.th.jpg

.................................................................................


The Presence and THOTI are less than nothing to these true Gods of Marvel and DC.

The Presence and THOTI,
are the complete fictional representations of supreme beings,
withIN their respective realities. (DC and Marvel)

Morrison/Carlin and Kirbiesk/Lee type avatars are the creators of these drawings, ("supreme beings"
even though they themselves are being represented by a drawing as well.

.................................................................................


So bottom line:


The Presence = THOTI
(since both represent the Supreme Beings withIN their realities)

Morrison/Carlin/Kirbiesk/lee >>> Presence/HOTI
(since they literally represent the creators of everything that takes place on panel)
(including "supreme beings"
that also appear on panel relating themselves with other drawings. (like the Presence)

As I know it, the presence has never been seen, becuz it is the outside force that shapes lucifer's father, God.

Originally posted by fangirl101
As I know it, the presence has never been seen, becuz it is the outside force that shapes lucifer's father, God.
Actually, God, YHWH, the Presence are all the same being. And he's being shaped.

Source: http://forums.narutofan.com/showpost.php?p=7423553&postcount=252

Refered to as the Presence multiple times.

Originally posted by fangirl101

As I know it, the presence has never been seen
Yea, but his sons (Michael and Lucifer have been)
and we've seen the Presence speak may times
and relate to other drawings such as Michael or Lucifer as family.

That right there makes the Presence beneath Morrison/Carlin/Kirbiest-type avatars,
who literally KNOW
that everything else on panel is a fictional reality thought up and drawn by them.

Unlike the Presence with his "polar opposite" and again, family members.

Originally posted by fangirl101

becuz it is the outside force that shapes lucifer's father, God.
Precisely, those outside forces are obviously the writers/artists. (Morrison/Carlin-type avatars)
that shape the Presence, YHWH whatever.

Originally posted by Astner

Actually, God, YHWH, the Presence are all the same being. And he's being shaped.

Source: http://forums.narutofan.com/showpost.php?p=7423553&postcount=252

Refered to as the Presence multiple times.
Nice.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I disagree.


Actually, Morrison/Carlin avatars
and FF #511 avatars ... are the true Gods of Marvel and DC!

.................................................................................


The Morrison avatar (from animal man) is not the Presence,
that Morrison avatar is exactly what Toaa/God from FF#511 represented:

Real world artists/writers.


The Presence is a drawing,
an idea on a piece of paper that was created by this type of Morrison avatar.

The Presence is an entity that's intergrated into the DC divine reality,
he has family, aspects of himself, and even a polar opposite.


Morrison did not identify with his creation as an equal, opposite or inferior existence,
but rather as what they really are,
just a drawing on a piece of paper.

http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/4964/am1zz4.th.jpg


You must read the scan, or you'll end up in a dance of circles good friend.

.................................................................................


Just like Reed and the FF, Silver Surfer, Black Panther and even Galactus,
are just silly drawings on a piece of paper to the real OAA/God (writers/artists avatars)

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/6163/fantasticfour51119ze0.th.jpg

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/1171/fantasticfour51118em9jtto2.th.jpg

.................................................................................


The Presence and THOTI are less than nothing to these true Gods of Marvel and DC.

The Presence and THOTI,
are the complete fictional representations of supreme beings,
withIN their respective realities. (DC and Marvel)

Morrison/Carlin and Kirbiesk/Lee type avatars are the creators of these drawings, ("supreme beings"
even though they themselves are being represented by a drawing as well.

.................................................................................


So bottom line:


The Presence = THOTI
(since both represent the Supreme Beings withIN their realities)

Morrison/Carlin/Kirbiesk/lee >>> Presence/HOTI
(since they literally represent the creators of everything that takes place on panel)
(including "supreme beings"
that also appear on panel relating themselves with other drawings. (like the Presence)

The real world is a part of the dc multiverse you know, where does that fit in with your plan? Also HOTI does not make you 'God' within the reality, for that he would have to be eternal and able to remake everything again without losing your powers like Thanos was unable to do. He should have died fixing the flaw as that is how everything in the universe comes to an end then everything is remade it is the never ending loop, it seems Death let him live. Agree to disagree I guess

BTw thoti wins

Originally posted by Ouallada
I understand all that. He was also stated on panel to embody everything that God is. My doubts come from the fact that he wasn't shown via feats to be exactly omniscient as God per se, and that the fact that he ended up doing the bidding of TOAA suggests that latter is greater, if only on a technicality. It doesn't mean that the Hotu is less powerful (this we know to be true) than God or that it does not grant God's omniscience (unproven through feats, only going on bios), but that one was an instrument of the other. To me, it works the same way as the moon landing. Armstrong and Aldrin both did the exact same thing, but the former is greater on a technicality. I agree with this. I'd say the same about Michael as well.

Originally posted by kevdude

The real world is a part of the dc multiverse you know,
where does that fit in with your plan?
If you want it to be, but that's ridiculous to me.
Originally posted by kevdude

Also HOTI does not make you 'God' within the reality,
for that he would have to be eternal
and able to remake everything again
without losing your powers like Thanos was unable to do.
I didn't know Thanos had to lose his powers in order to re-create everything,
can you please show me where this is stated and or alluded to?

The arc that I read with THOTI was different.

Thanos CHOSE to give up the power willingly,
he consciously obliterated the Heart in fact.

Originally posted by kevdude

He should have died fixing the flaw as that is how everything in the universe comes to an end then everything is remade it is the never ending loop, it seems Death let him live.

Agree to disagree I guess
"agree toi disagree?"

I don't even know what you're talking about.
You're making something up there that has nothing to do with THOTI/Thanos or The End:

So whatever.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Sword and pretty easily actually. This has to be a joke.

Originally posted by Mr Master
As I understand it from the Michael respect thread:

Michael personifies "God's" power. (but he is still below the Presence)

THOTI on the other hand, makes you "God" period.

I'm not sure what Michael is over at DC,
but Thanos on panel became the Almighty Supreme Being, God!
his Marvel bio confirms Thanos became the "Supreme Being" (literally)
his Handbook references state he was God!
in Jim Starlin's interview,
Jim said: Thanos became God! and destroyed/recreated the Marvel Universe.

THOTI = the Presence, imo

On Panel, in stories integrated and connected into the DC & Marvel reality,
these are the Supreme powers of each Reality (THOTI/Presence)


But the true "Gods" of each Reality (DC/Marvel) are these below:

Kirbiesk/Lee (collaborator) - Avatars = (artists/writers) = Morrison/Carlin - Avatars.



Doesn't matter to me who would win, but that's my two cents. Yes Thanos was supreme no doubt about it. Michael lacks the on panel feats and isnt in the same league as Thanos with the heart.

Originally posted by Mr Master
If you want it to be, but that's ridiculous to me.

I didn't know Thanos had to lose his powers in order to re-create everything,
can you please show me where this is stated and or alluded to?

The arc that I read with THOTI was different.

Thanos CHOSE to give up the power willingly,
he consciously obliterated the Heart in fact.


"agree toi disagree?"

I don't even know what you're talking about.
You're making something up there that has nothing to do with THOTI/Thanos or The End:

So whatever. Master I think thats what he thinks happened in the comic. He misinterpreted death of the new gods imo as well.

Originally posted by Galan007
I agree with this. I'd say the same about Michael as well.

Fair enough, but the difference is of course that Thanos is very well equal to God (even though I place him below on a technicality, but still above Michael), whereas Michael is clearly lower.

Thanos wasn't Toaa/god that draws him on panel,
Thanos was Toaa/god withIN the Marvel reality.

God (representative writers/artists' avatars) are above THOTI,
but they're inconsequential in comic book stories,
they will never battle, or invlove themselves as part of a story,
because they instead create/draw the stories we read,
yes, from withIN a comic book they create/draw what we read.

Obviously NOT literally,
but nevertheless it's a fictional representation of what they do in the "real world"
which is,
create and draw comic books.

THOTI is as powerful as one can be in a Marvel story.

The Presence is as powerful as one can be in a DC story.


Morrison/Carlin Avatars and Kirbiesk/collaborator Avatars,
create and draw the stories where THOTI and the Presence are supreme.



DC:

http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/4964/am1zz4.th.jpg




Marvel

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/6163/fantasticfour51119ze0.th.jpg

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/1171/fantasticfour51118em9jtto2.th.jpg

Originally posted by fangirl101
As I know it, the presence has never been seen A conception of the Presence/God in DC :

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/4374/god1cu2.th.jpg http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/5579/god2dn6.th.jpg http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/3989/god3yz9.th.jpg http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/3315/god4nu3.th.jpg http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/3663/god5ns4.th.jpg


It should be noted that the Morrison avatar would still be superior to the above being - as it was he , which drew God in the above scans.

Originally posted by Galan007
A conception of the Presence/God in DC :

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/4374/god1cu2.th.jpg http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/5579/god2dn6.th.jpg http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/3989/god3yz9.th.jpg http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/3315/god4nu3.th.jpg http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/3663/god5ns4.th.jpg


It should be noted that the Morrison avatar would still be superior to the above being - as it was he , which drew God in the above scans.

I knew about that. But that was the Spectre's own dillusions of some kind.

Originally posted by fangirl101
I knew about that. But that was the Spectre's own delusions of some kind. It was God whom was giving Spectre said 'delusions'.

Originally posted by Galan007
It was God whom was giving Spectre said 'delusions'.

Right. So then God hadn't actually appeared to spectre right? We've never seen what he really looks like. It's always some representation. Like when he was an englishman talking to lucifer.

Originally posted by fangirl101
Right. So then God hadn't actually appeared to spectre right? Yes, that was actually him in the above scans.

Originally posted by fangirl101
We've never seen what he really looks like. It's always some representation. Like when he was an englishman talking to lucifer. God doesn't have a specific look. He simply appears as he will it.

Originally posted by Galan007
Yes, that was actually him in the above scans.

God doesn't have a specific look. He simply appears as he will it.

Ok. I always thought he was never seen in his true form. When the titan god attacked heaven, you never got to see the presence. When asmodel attacked heaven, the presence was no where to be seen. didn't even say a world.

Originally posted by Galan007
A conception of the Presence/God in DC :

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/4374/god1cu2.th.jpg http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/5579/god2dn6.th.jpg http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/3989/god3yz9.th.jpg http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/3315/god4nu3.th.jpg http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/3663/god5ns4.th.jpg


It should be noted that the Morrison avatar would still be superior to the above being - as it was he , which drew God in the above scans. Interesting stuff to say the least.

I find it interesting that this SUPREME being that the spectre attacks, talks about how EVERYTHING is his creation. How he exists in countless Dimensions. As a true supreme being would have created everything and exist everywhere. Anything less than this is NOT a supreme being.

Originally posted by fangirl101
I find it interesting that this SUPREME being that the spectre attacks, talks about how EVERYTHING is his creation. How he exists in countless Dimensions. As a true supreme being would have created everythign and exist everywhere. Anything less than this is NOT a supreme being. Point?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Point?

He's saying that God is being superfluous.

That was simply how Corrigan percieved God since he doesn't actually have a specific form.

(The writer of the series also pretty much stated that how Corrigan was seeing Michael was simply Corrigan's ideea of Michael)

.

I'll put my 2 cents on the Heart.

I'll take Galan's perspective as the source of truth concerning the Presence.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I'll take Galan's perspective as the source of truth concerning the Presence.
That's usually a safe bet.

durfist

Everything in the DCU is like 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon.

HOTU absorbs the Sword of Superman, thus becoming the Supreme Being of two companies.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Everything in the DCU is like 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon. What has bacon been up to as of late. I wonder.