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While I disapprove of post- ROTS sith- for your consideration:

1. Sabers
2. Force
3. All Out

Takes place in Jabba's Palace (with residents)- then a Rematch in the Arena at Geonosis (empty except for them)

Originally posted by Jbill311
While I disapprove of post- ROTS sith- for your consideration:

1. Sabers
2. Force
3. All Out

Takes place in Jabba's Palace (with residents)- then a Rematch in the Arena at Geonosis (empty except for them)

Yeah yeah yeah, everyone hates Caedus.

Moving right along...

1. A hard match. I would give it to Caedus by a slim margin considering he put up a good fight against Luke and managed to beat Kyle Katarn and a trio of other Jedi, although the Yoda-Caedus height difference would sway the odds more towards Yoda, but not far enough.

2. Most likely Yoda. Though Caedus has Force lightning, Force Choke, and Shatterpoint, I think that the little green oven mitt has (sadly) more power in this area than Caedus.

3. Even harder than #1, but I would give it to Caedus if he can employ the same tactics he used against Katarn (e.g. using the Force subtly to damage his opponent while still dueling). There's lots of things in Jabba's Palace that he can use to his advantage against Yoda, though Yoda could do the same.

I'm only holding back here because everyone has such an unprovoked hate against Caedus.

Oh, and the rematch on Geonosis goes the same way.

^shatterpoint could also help Caedus in saber combat. Putting the hate of the Caedus authors aside, I would say that Caedus does stand a chance of taking this, he has shown himself to able to take more pain then any character except for Sion.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
^shatterpoint could also help Caedus in saber combat. Putting the hate of the Caedus authors aside, I would say that Caedus does stand a chance a very good chance of taking this, he has shown himself to able to more pain then perhaps any character except for Sion.

Maybe Caedus could shatter Yoda into a million pieces.

Yoda's too small for their to be a million pieces more likely a hundred pieces.

I didn't read Invincible too thoroughly (I pretty much only read it to get the major plotpoints), but I do recall that Jaina Solo admitted in a meeting with Luke Skywalker and the Jedi Council that there were "many" Jedi Masters and Knights whose prowess with a blade and mastery of the Force exceeded her own, yet she defeated her brother in single combat. However, if memory serves, most of those same Masters believed that only Luke held a certain dominance over his nephew, and Bloodlines, I believe, confirmed that Jacen was "second only" to Luke in the Order, as demonstrated in his defeat of Kyle Katarn and Katarn's squad of Jedi Knights. Was it stated how Jaina overcame Caedus? Or was it merely PIS?

Originally posted by Gideon
Was it stated how Jaina overcame Caedus? Or was it merely PIS?

I haven't read the book yet( Im waiting for it to be put up online) but from what i understand via a p.m. and wookieepedia is that it caedus lost the use of 1 arm via a sniper rifle shot from Jaina than he willingly let her chop it off the first time. And thought he was facing luke.

Before the second duel even started Jaina snuck up from behind him and stabbed him through the gut and even during the duel Caedus was focused on his family mainly Allana.

So yea it sounds like the Any given Sunday clause to me. Should the 2 had faced off in a fair fight I would say that Caedus would beat her.

Originally posted by Gideon
I didn't read Invincible too thoroughly (I pretty much only read it to get the major plotpoints), but I do recall that Jaina Solo admitted in a meeting with Luke Skywalker and the Jedi Council that there were "many" Jedi Masters and Knights whose prowess with a blade and mastery of the Force exceeded her own, yet she defeated her brother in single combat. However, if memory serves, most of those same Masters believed that only Luke held a certain dominance over his nephew, and Bloodlines, I believe, confirmed that Jacen was "second only" to Luke in the Order, as demonstrated in his defeat of Kyle Katarn and Katarn's squad of Jedi Knights. Was it stated how Jaina overcame Caedus? Or was it merely PIS?

Jacen's alleged power is so inconsistent throughout the entire LOTF series, it's hard to tell. However, the second time Jaina fought Jacen, she was basically stalemating him while he pwned her in the force. She got a good (lucky?) hit in on his foot and maimed him, so he basically was fighting with 1 hand and 1 foot. At full strength Jaina could not defeat Jacen but her new mandalorian skills certainly did help. I do not see Jacen defeating Yoda though in any kind of a battle. While he may have more raw force power, Yoda's force mastery and techniques exceed his own.

omg so caedus is on yoda's level? that is SOOOO GAY!!

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
omg so caedus is on yoda's level? that is SOOOO GAY!!

No that is a good thing, Caedus was able to injure Luke so if Caedus is on the level of ROTS Yoda than LOTF Luke is not as godly as he use to be. (or some think)

wasn't luke caught in some kind of vong torture device? Caedus never actually hit luke with a saber did he? he caught him in a garrot, but luke got free of that on his own.

The fact that jacen almost lost to aurra sing, was DID lose to Jaina means he couldn't be on Yoda's level. Would u honestly believe that Yoda would lose to Jaina on any given sunday?

Just because LOTF sucks ass, Luke is a stupid, overpowered douche bag, and Caedus is like a less cool (if it's possible) incarnation of Anakin, I'm giving this to Yoda. May Luke be beheaded by a Gungun with a speech problem (Jar-Jar, I'm counting on you).

On a more serious note, I believe that Yoda's demonstrated mastery and saber skills exceed Caedus' own, so he should probably defeat him.

I believe that in the ROTS novel yoda was described as the most powerful foe the darkside had ever seen or something along those lines and I just don't see caedus being more powerful than yoda in anything. Also consider that Yoda was a jedi master for 800 years and through deductive reasoning I'm positive that yoda knows more about the force than Caedus.

Originally posted by truejedi
wasn't luke caught in some kind of vong torture device? Caedus never actually hit luke with a saber did he? he caught him in a garrot, but luke got free of that on his own.

The fact that jacen almost lost to aurra sing, was DID lose to Jaina means he couldn't be on Yoda's level. Would u honestly believe that Yoda would lose to Jaina on any given sunday?

To be fair to Caedus, he was distracted by having to protect Allana. such as how Sing tried blow Allana out of her hiding place with a thermal detonator so Jacen had to stop the detonator which did allow sing to gain the upper hand over Jacen, then he wanted unleash force lightning on Sing when she was in no position to block it but Allana came out of her hiding spot at that moment and Jacen didn't want to expose her to the darkside by using force lightning which could have ended the duel. Then Allana kept distracting Jacen the rest of the duel and getting in the way.
In regards to the any given sunday clause, Maul lost Obiwan when he should have won, Luke shouldn't have been able to defeat Vader either. Plus Jaina didn't beat him in a straight up lightsaber duel either time the fought.

I'll get back to the luke duel later today.

God, I hate LOTF...

I didn't mean just to start an anti- LOTF thread, I just wanted to compare pre- and post- Republic force users. Jacen is powerful, and I think it is mostly poor writing that hurts his case. I simply can't stand that THE PROPHECY means nothing.

Originally posted by Gideon
I didn't read Invincible too thoroughly (I pretty much only read it to get the major plotpoints), but I do recall that Jaina Solo admitted in a meeting with Luke Skywalker and the Jedi Council that there were "many" Jedi Masters and Knights whose prowess with a blade and mastery of the Force exceeded her own, yet she defeated her brother in single combat. However, if memory serves, most of those same Masters believed that only Luke held a certain dominance over his nephew, and Bloodlines, I believe, confirmed that Jacen was "second only" to Luke in the Order, as demonstrated in his defeat of Kyle Katarn and Katarn's squad of Jedi Knights. Was it stated how Jaina overcame Caedus? Or was it merely PIS?
Jaina was sniping at him, Luke used a technique to make it look like he was there helping Jaina, which screwed up Caedus, than Jaina went and cut his arm off.
It was probably actually one of the best books in the lotf series. Still not very good though...

Sabers: Draw.Caedus, simply becuase he is a demonstrated beast with a blade, would in my mind realistically stand a fair chance against Yoda. But Yoda is also great as shown by his fights with Dooku and Sidious.

Force: The only offensive techniques that Yoda could use would be to either push J into the Rancour pit, reflect his lightning and chuck residents around. Jacen is strong enough to block all of those and then reply with some healthy Sith violence. I'd give them about equal power.

All-out: Caedus.

Same would go for the rematch.

You are a wise man, Lt. Valerian. May the LOTF Authors perish along with their creations.

1. Yoda (yoda pwnz and is totally underrated)
2. Yoda (yoda pwnz and ist totally underrated)
3. Yoda (Yoda pwnz and is totally underrated)

Of course, if you want to go along with this, this means that Caedus is the most powerful force user in history if he wins, meaning this puts him above bane, yoda (no duh), ROTS sideous (maybe not de sids, yet), Mace, revan, and kun.

I am not seriously ready to go along with this. The most powerful are the ones Lucas centered his movies around, and Lucas meant for it to be this way, period.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
I am not seriously ready to go along with this. The most powerful are the ones Lucas centered his movies around, and Lucas meant for it to be this way, period.

Not necessarily.

Darth Bane, Exar Kun, Kyle Katarn, Kyp Durron, Revan, and Darth Nihilus could give, at least, an extremely hard time to the characters who 'Lucas centered his movies around', and quite possibly even defeat some of them.



Yes, he was stated to be that very same thing, but this is LOTF, which takes place after the statement. Therefore, it doesn't apply.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
To be fair to Caedus, he was distracted by having to protect Allana. such as how Sing tried blow Allana out of her hiding place with a thermal detonator so Jacen had to stop the detonator which did allow sing to gain the upper hand over Jacen, then he wanted unleash force lightning on Sing when she was in no position to block it but Allana came out of her hiding spot at that moment and Jacen didn't want to expose her to the darkside by using force lightning which could have ended the duel. Then Allana kept distracting Jacen the rest of the duel and getting in the way.
In regards to the any given sunday clause, Maul lost Obiwan when he should have won, Luke shouldn't have been able to defeat Vader either. Plus Jaina didn't beat him in a straight up lightsaber duel either time the fought.

I'll get back to the luke duel later today.



very good point on the Aurra Sing fight. I guess we could say: he almost lost to Mara too, i forgot to bring that up. In fact, he ALMOST lost every fight he was ever involved in. Defeating Katarn so easily was an abberation, which depended on special circumstances as well. (just as the Aurra Sing fight did)

However, this quote from Inferno should help back up my interpretation of the fight with luke: It is made clear that luke did win, from an omniscient narrator, or Caedus (it probably counts as both)

"Luke had BEATEN him. Luke had just kept coming despite his injuries. He had inflicted more damage on Caedus than he had suffered himself, and he had even escaped teh garrote before Ben struck. In fact, it was probabaly that attack that had saved Caedus's life. Nothing else could have shocked Luke out of his battle rage--only the sight of ben slipping so far to the dark side."
"

And i know you are going to bring up Luke's surprise attack on him, and its a good point, BUT.. wasn't that Jacen's fault? i mean, Ben was right there, telling him that Luke was on the ship, coming for him (pretty stupid of Ben, btw) and Jacen just laughed at him. Plus, the pain inflicted on Jacen, all the way through LOTF, seemed to do nothign but make him stronger, so mebbe we could argue Luke's surprise attack on Caedus actually was an unfair advantage at the beginnnig for caedus.

Originally posted by Lt. Valerian
Yes, he was stated to be that very same thing, but this is LOTF, which takes place after the statement. Therefore, it doesn't apply.

Yes, but he was a match for "the most powerful sith" (g-cannon) and george lucas never gave a time limit, he didn't say "in star wars history" thereofore, yoda=the most powerful sith, which means the most powerful sith is even more powerful (OMG!!) then caedus.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
thereofore, yoda=the most powerful sith, which means the most powerful sith

Que?

And actually considering that it says "had ever seen"indicates that it is subject to being over ridden by new material. If it said in, say, a guide book that "Yoda is the most powerful enemy the dark side has ever seen. then it'd be diffiferent, also depends on when the narraration is taking place I guess.

Originally posted by truejedi
very good point on the Aurra Sing fight. I guess we could say: he almost lost to Mara too, i forgot to bring that up. In fact, he ALMOST lost every fight he was ever involved in. Defeating Katarn so easily was an abberation, which depended on special circumstances as well.(just as the Aurra Sing fight did)

However, this quote from Inferno should help back up my interpretation of the fight with luke: It is made clear that luke did win, from an omniscient narrator, or Caedus (it probably counts as both)

"Luke had BEATEN him. Luke had just kept coming despite his injuries. He had inflicted more damage on Caedus than he had suffered himself, and he had even escaped teh garrote before Ben struck. In fact, it was probabaly that attack that had saved Caedus's life. Nothing else could have shocked Luke out of his battle rage--only the sight of ben slipping so far to the dark side."
"

And i know you are going to bring up Luke's surprise attack on him, and its a good point, BUT.. wasn't that Jacen's fault? i mean, Ben was right there, telling him that Luke was on the ship, coming for him (pretty stupid of Ben, btw) and Jacen just laughed at him. Plus, the pain inflicted on Jacen, all the way through LOTF, seemed to do nothign but make him stronger, so mebbe we could argue Luke's surprise attack on Caedus actually was an unfair advantage at the beginnnig for caedus.

I'm not going to bring up the fact that Luke surprised him. Luke would have won regardless. I just wanted to point out that Aurra would have been tooled if Allana didn't get in the way. Besides for the fact that I'm not even saying that Caedus would win this fight but stands a chance to.


As for the Katarn fight I will like to mention that Caedus wasn't healed from the Luke fight. Though I will say that Caedus can taking a beating and still put up a hell of a fight like no other.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
Yes, but he was a match for "the most powerful sith" (g-cannon) and george lucas never gave a time limit, he didn't say "in star wars history" thereofore, yoda=the most powerful sith, which means the most powerful sith is even more powerful (OMG!!) then caedus.

You're contradicting yourself right there: that is exactly my point, it did not say "in star wars history", hence, it doesn't apply to future eras. If it had said he was a match for "the most powerful Sith in star wars history" then you would be right and I would shut up, but it doesn't.
And no, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying he isn't a match for incredibly powerful Sith, I'm just pointing out that any quote similar to those does not apply to any future era.

Anyhow, this is all bunkered down by that fact that Luke Skywalker is the most devastating foe the darkness has ever seen, which proves the quote was only referring to Sith coming before Yoda.

And pure common sense.

Yoda was most powerful powerful lightsider to face "the darkness" prior to Luke, that is what the quote means in the end.

The exact quote from the ROTS novel is This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known... just-didn't-have it.He'd never had it. He had lost before he started.He had lost before he was born.

I don't really understand that. When I read it, it made sense in context, but is it really saying that he is incapable of winning? or that the jedi in general needed to survive and adapt?

Here is the very next line

The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.

They had become new.

While the Jedi-The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to refight the last war.

The new Sith could not be destroyed with a lightsaber; they could not be burned away by any torch of the Force. The brighter his light, the darker their shadow. How could one win a war against the dark, when war itself had become the dark's own weapon?

He knew, at that instant, that this insight held the hope of the galaxy. But if he fell here, that hope would die with him. Hmmm, Yoda thought. A problem this is . . .

Basically it means that the will of the force was on the sith's side and the jedi were destined to fall.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Sabers: Draw.Caedus, simply becuase he is a demonstrated beast with a blade, would in my mind realistically stand a fair chance against Yoda. But Yoda is also great as shown by his fights with Dooku and Sidious.

Force: The only offensive techniques that Yoda could use would be to either push J into the Rancour pit, reflect his lightning and chuck residents around. Jacen is strong enough to block all of those and then reply with some healthy Sith violence. I'd give them about equal power.

All-out: Caedus.

Same would go for the rematch.

This.

Caedus=Yoda; is why Caedus was able to give LotF Luke, hell.

I think that one of the reasons Caedus is considered to be such a powerful Sith Lord for his generation is because of his esoteric force abilities and the six year vacation he took to investigate force abilities that are unknown to people of the new jedi order.

Now you have Yoda who is a Jedi Grandmaster whose lived for 800 years which gives him plenty of years to study up on jedi/sith lore...specifically how to counter dangerous sith powers. I highly doubt that Caedus can utilize any of his unknown force abilities without Yoda at least being aware of them.

Even Luke who wasn't fully aware of what Caedus knew was able to stop him with ease.

Yoda?

He takes the force aspect with no trouble.

If Caedus was given more time to develop as a Sith Lord he would have been truly formidable but he wasn't...

Originally posted by Ofi-Wan
I think that one of the reasons Caedus is considered to be such a powerful Sith Lord for his generation is because of his esoteric force abilities and the six year vacation he took to investigate force abilities that are unknown to people of the new jedi order.

Now you have Yoda who is a Jedi Grandmaster whose lived for 800 years which gives him plenty of years to study up on jedi/sith lore...specifically how to counter dangerous sith powers. I highly doubt that Caedus can utilize any of his unknown force abilities without Yoda at least being aware of them.


Yoda knew Force Absorb - but I highly doubt that he had trained specifically to combat any Sith.

He just knew the ability and had skill with it - but nothing more; hence Sidious still being able to beat him, despite it.



Originally posted by Ofi-Wan

Even Luke who wasn't fully aware of what Caedus knew was able to stop him with ease.


No - not quite so much. I don't know if you've read their fight - but Caedus gave Luke hell, even holding him down temporarily with TK, and being able to go toe-to-toe in sabers with Luke, who was at that point close to being a Force God.

That's why, as Nephthys so astutely put it, Caedus definitely has what it takes to battle Yoda - and defeat the little green Jedi Master, who is far weaker than Luke by comparison.



Originally posted by Ofi-Wan

Yoda?

He takes the force aspect with no trouble.


No. Again, Caedus was able to temporarily hold down LotF Luke, who could crush Yoda into a tiny drop of slime.

Caedus has enough of a unique skill-set and strength to definitely go toe-to-toe and nullify whatever Yoda throws at him - killing Yoda eventually.






Originally posted by Ofi-Wan

If Caedus was given more time to develop as a Sith Lord he would have been truly formidable but he wasn't...

Being able to kill Peak Mara Jade, defeat Peak Kyle Katarn and give Force God Luke hell, constitutes as truly formidable.

Certainly just as, or more formidable than Yoda, who he would kill.

Hmmm I wonder if Caedus will even have existed in the Sequel Universe..

Caedus only beat Mara with the help of poison she wasn't expecting because she didn't know how far he'd go to win/keep his secret.

Scenario 1: Cadeus narrowly and I mean narrowly
Scenario 2: Yoda by a slim crevice of a margin
Scenario 3: Complete draw.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Scenario 1: Cadeus narrowly and I mean narrowly
Scenario 2: Yoda by a slim crevice of a margin
Scenario 3: Complete draw.

That's what I think.

Cadeus=Yoda evenly.

That's why Caedus gave Luke hell - and we all know Yoda would give current Luke hell, but end up dying in the end.

So we're, therefore, assuming that Caedus>Yoda>Sidious at sabers? Alrighty then...

Originally posted by Ascendancy
So we're, therefore, assuming that Caedus>Yoda>Sidious at sabers? Alrighty then...

Is that surprising? Caedus is like Mace Windu if he ever gave into the Dark Side, who I'd imagine being above even Yoda in sabers.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Is that surprising? Caedus is like Mace Windu if he ever gave into the Dark Side, who I'd imagine being above even Yoda in sabers.

Mace already uses the Dark Side to boost his power.

I think the reason Caedus maybe above Yoda in Sabers is that he has more raw power than even Yoda plus Mace's Shatterpoint talent.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Mace already uses the Dark Side to boost his power.

I think the reason Caedus maybe above Yoda in Sabers is that he has more raw power than even Yoda plus Mace's Shatterpoint talent.

Plausible points.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Mace already uses the Dark Side to boost his power.

I think the reason Caedus maybe above Yoda in Sabers is that he has more raw power than even Yoda plus Mace's Shatterpoint talent.

Yes he has to enjoy combat in order to use Vaapad but he never truly falls to the Dark Side. Caedus implores the full power of the Dark Side as well as uses Shatterpoints.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Yes he has to enjoy combat in order to use Vaapad but he never truly falls to the Dark Side. Caedus implores the full power of the Dark Side as well as uses Shatterpoints.

I wonder if Caedus could beat DE Luke - before Leia helped him, and all that jazz.

Where does it say Caedus has more raw power than Yoda? I don't see that happening. So far as I know, only Anakin has been confirmed to, though Luke also likely does. I would put Caedus at a power level near Mace. This is in raw power, of course.

Originally posted by Pwned
Where does it say Caedus has more raw power than Yoda? I don't see that happening. So far as I know, only Anakin has been confirmed to, though Luke also likely does. I would put Caedus at a power level near Mace. This is in raw power, of course.

I'm sure we're told somewhere he grew more powerful than Vader.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I'm sure we're told somewhere he grew more powerful than Vader. I am sure you understand that I would like the direct quote if possible.


Plus, Vader never really equaled Yoda in the Force. Raw power itself can't change. It was more than likely referring to mastery, while Caedus never could have equaled Yoda in that. I honestly doubt even Luke equaled him in that.

The quote came from the back of hardback edition of Legacy of the Force: Invincible, but the publisher's summary should be taken with a grain of salt.

Originally posted by Pwned
I am sure you understand that I would like the direct quote if possible.


Plus, Vader never really equaled Yoda in the Force. Raw power itself can't change. It was more than likely referring to mastery, while Caedus never could have equaled Yoda in that. I honestly doubt even Luke equaled him in that.

It was on the Cover-flap of Invincible, I believe. It's a blurb but from what I've heard, the authors meant it seriously.

The blurb stated that Jacen had now surpassed Darth Vader in terms of power.

In terms of raw power (developed), Vader not only equaled Yoda in terms of the Force - he surpassed him.

Anakin has a MC Count even greater than Yoda - and even while trapped in the suit, with a decaying body, Vader could do things with the Force on par with Yoda - crushing a Battle Tank as if it were a tin-can, for instance.

If you're wondering whether Caedus could equal Yoda in raw power? Probably; very likely.

I would say Caedus, from what we've seen of his feats, is equaled to Yoda's abilities in most respects - Even, as it were.

What Caedus surpasses Yoda in, is lightsaber-swordsmanship, though. Definitely.

And of course, Luke is far beyond Yoda, in Force strength. Much more raw power.

Yoda is attributed by Star Wars Insider as probably the greatest swordsman in the history of the Jedi Order and is, per the Clone Wars Character Encyclopedia, a master of all 7 forms of lightsaber combat. I have an easier time believing Caedus is Yoda's equal or superior in the Force than I do as a swordsman.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Yoda is attributed by Star Wars Insider as probably the greatest swordsman in the history of the Jedi Order and is, per the Clone Wars Character Encyclopedia, a master of all 7 forms of lightsaber combat. I have an easier time believing Caedus is Yoda's equal or superior in the Force than I do as a swordsman.

I wonder when that was stated - Mace for example, is probably superior to Yoda in that area.

The Caedus event may have altered the validity of that statement, anyway.

And I'm sure Luke has far surpassed Yoda, in terms of being the greatest swordsman in the history of the Order.

What are people basing that Luke was the better swordsman that Yoda.. Was it ever stated was his count was in comparison to Yoda? Further was it ever stated what Mace's or Caedus count was?

Originally posted by Rookwood
I wonder when that was stated - Mace for example, is probably superior to Yoda in that area.

No relevant source I'm aware of suggests Mace is Yoda's equal, let alone superior, in lightsaber combat. In fact, all of them (from Yoda: Dark Rendezvous to Labyrinth of Evil) suggest otherwise.

Originally posted by Rookwood
The Caedus event may have altered the validity of that statement, anyway.

No doubt, but Caedus doesn't have the feats to compete with Yoda, IMHO.

Originally posted by Rookwood
And I'm sure Luke has far surpassed Yoda, in terms of being the greatest swordsman in the history of the Order.

I'd say Luke surpassed Yoda in both realms, but "far"? To be honest, I don't see Yoda struggling with Lumiya.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
What are people basing that Luke was the better swordsman that Yoda..

I'm guessing you haven't read the New Jedi Order series, or Fate of the Jedi?


Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi

Was it ever stated was his count was in comparison to Yoda?

Luke's? He's Annie's son, so his count is likely the same, or higher - evidence pointing to higher, obviously, given the insane things he's done, that make Yoda look weak in comparison.



Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi

Further was it ever stated what Mace's or Caedus count was?

No, but it's irellevent, because it's very likely they were close to Yoda's, anyway - close enough to rival or match him in power.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
No relevant source I'm aware of suggests Mace is Yoda's equal, let alone superior, in lightsaber combat. In fact, all of them (from Yoda: Dark Rendezvous to Labyrinth of Evil) suggest otherwise.


The Mace-Sidious duel was pure lightsaber-swordsmanship - and Mace had Sidious defeated and close to death.

Whereas Yoda's fight with Sidious involved Yoda moving around more for an advantage and using a lot Force power/technique, in the proccess - and he still couldn't defeat Sidious.

That alone proves that Mace was Yoda's equal or likely, superior in lightsaber-combat.


Originally posted by The_Tempest

No doubt, but Caedus doesn't have the feats to compete with Yoda, IMHO.


Been a while since I read those books - but Caedus momentarily holding down a Force God Luke with TK, matching him in sabers, etc - is good enough to show he's at least equal.

(His esoteric Flow-walking and Electric Judgement, aside)

Not superior, but equal with Yoda.



Originally posted by The_Tempest

I'd say Luke surpassed Yoda in both realms, but "far"? To be honest, I don't see Yoda struggling with Lumiya.

Well, I do remember Luke moving his lightsaber so fast in The Unifying Force (NJO) that it looked like 20 lightsabers were dancing around, cutting enemies up.

He's probably considerably more skilled than Yoda in sabers, now.

Mace matched Sidious due to the metaphysical advantages afforded by Vaapad against dark siders (again, shitty writing courtesy of Stover handing Lucas a creative saving throw), an advantage that would not be present in a fight against Yoda. In other words, had it been Yoda there instead of Sidious, Mace would have went down.



Luke is not a Force God. Luke has moments of utter godhood, but the times Caedus held his own against Luke were times in which Luke was being nerfed. For example, when Luke is calm, he can (and did!) pin Caedus to his chair without effort. When they clashed again, Luke pinned Caedus and began to dismantle his starfighter.

Only when Luke actively courted battle did Caedus hold his own. When Luke's serious, Caedus is mincemeat.



Luke at his best is better than Yoda at his best, no doubt, but consistently, Luke is not vastly superior to Yoda.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Mace matched Sidious due to the metaphysical advantages afforded by Vaapad against dark siders (again, shitty writing courtesy of Stover handing Lucas a creative saving throw), an advantage that would not be present in a fight against Yoda. In other words, had it been Yoda there instead of Sidious, Mace would have went down.


Actually, as DARTH POWER has also stated, Vapaad works by channeling an enemy's darkness into a weapon of the light - but it also channels the user's darkness into a weapon of the light.

It goes both ways.

Mace would have his natural connection to the Light side to feed off of (Already very strong) and also a connection to the Dark side to feed off of (Bolstering the power he already has.)

He would also maintain the speed advantage Vapaad would give him, and the deadly technique of the style itself would help to close the gap.

Mace would win; it would just be very close.

Also, given that Yoda needs space to maneuver around, to make up for physical short-comings, if he and Mace had been fighting in the office, eventually, Mace would have had him cornered (In a pure sword-duel) and would have cut him down.




Originally posted by The_Tempest

Luke is not a Force God. Luke has moments of utter godhood, but the times Caedus held his own against Luke were times in which Luke was being nerfed. For example, when Luke is calm, he can (and did!) pin Caedus to his chair without effort. When they clashed again, Luke pinned Caedus and began to dismantle his starfighter.

Only when Luke actively courted battle did Caedus hold his own. When Luke's serious, Caedus is mincemeat.


I remember Caedus temporarily holding Luke down as well, at one point - and then rising slowly as he did, because he was under strain to keep Luke down.

But yeah, Caedus did really well, all things considered.

Also, his defeat of both Peak Mara Jade and Kyle Katarn, also showcase the fact that he's at least equal to Yoda.



Originally posted by The_Tempest

Luke at his best is better than Yoda at his best, no doubt, but consistently, Luke is not vastly superior to Yoda.

What are his lastest lightsaber-feats in FotJ? I know they were uber in NJO.

caedus