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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqjFBiPMmBE&eurl=http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=108138761

"It will be about basically taking over and the government running all your companies" - Maxine Waters (D-CA)

Thoughts? Good idea to to take a page out of Hugo Chavez's playbook? Or bad idea?

nationalisation is never a good idea...it eliminates market forces that keep a company competitive...ie keeping costs low...

granted it'll mean higher employment and higher salaries and pension within the institution...but when inflation hits then there will be a sell off (as there was in the UK) and then extreme boom and bust economies come back into play...and noone wants that

Originally posted by jaden101
nationalisation is never a good idea...it eliminates market forces that keep a company competitive...ie keeping costs low...

Bought gas in the US lately?

try the UK my friend...over twice as much here as the US

Originally posted by KidRock
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqjFBiPMmBE&eurl=http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=108138761

"It will be about basically taking over and the government running all your companies" - Maxine Waters (D-CA)

Thoughts? Good idea to to take a page out of Hugo Chavez's playbook? Or bad idea?

That will be great. If you want to spend $15 a gallon.

Originally posted by jaden101
try the UK my friend...over twice as much here as the US

Great evidence for how the free market is keeping prices down.

Nationalizing the industry would be an improvement from the supposed free market controlling the oil industry now.

besides...cant remember the figures..but isn't US domestic oil only a really small fraction of what the US consumes anyway?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Great evidence for how the free market is keeping prices down.

Nationalizing the industry would be an improvement from the supposed free market controlling the oil industry now.

problem over here is massive taxation though...about 80% of the price is tax...and our domestic oil industry is relatively small...and produces a different grade of oil...not typically used for gas/petrol

people pay a nickel a liter in Venezuela

Originally posted by KidRock
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqjFBiPMmBE&eurl=http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=108138761

"It will be about basically taking over and the government running all your companies" - Maxine Waters (D-CA)

Thoughts? Good idea to to take a page out of Hugo Chavez's playbook? Or bad idea? Last time I checked your government already runs the oil industry -- Bush, Cheney, Rice etc. It's just now you'll pay through taxes and get it when you want.

Originally posted by jaden101
besides...cant remember the figures..but isn't US domestic oil only a really small fraction of what the US consumes anyway?

About a third.

Originally posted by lord xyz
Last time I checked your government already runs the oil industry -- Bush, Cheney, Rice etc. It's just now you'll pay through taxes and get it when you want.

Oil is run mostly by OPEC, they have the biggest pull. They in turn pay of our politicians, who in turn let 'Big Oil' sodomize us at the pump.

Originally posted by inimalist
people pay a nickel a liter in Venezuela

goddamn! i think its time we brought democracy to venezuela.

Originally posted by Schecter
goddamn! i think its time we brought democracy to venezuela.

The Saudi bastards pay about $0.45 per gallon for 91 octane.

"He who controls the spice controls the universe."

Originally posted by Robtard
Oil is run mostly by OPEC, they have the biggest pull. They in turn pay of our politicians, who in turn let 'Big Oil' sodomize us at the pump. Well, nationalisation will stop that from happening. I hate it when people always think nationalisation is bad, it saved my country from health and education...well, it helped.

Nationalising the oil would stop the paying off the government and possibly even the illegal wars.

Originally posted by Robtard
The Saudi bastards pay about $0.45 per gallon for 91 octane.

"He who controls the spice controls the universe."

With the Ferrari's and Lambos they drive I bet they dont mind the bad gas mileage lol.

Originally posted by lord xyz
it saved my country from health and education

lol apparently

Originally posted by lord xyz
Well, nationalisation will stop that from happening. I hate it when people always think nationalisation is bad, it saved my country from health and education...well, it helped.

Nationalising the oil would stop the paying off the government and possibly even the illegal wars.

I'm not necessarily against it, as a "free market" in the oil world isn't keeping the cost of a gallon of fuel down. But how is it going to help countries like the US and UK, who import a large portion of their oil? If the US were to drill in the (eg) ANWAR and be able to support it's own needs, then sure.

America needs to take a lesson from Brazil, they're independent. They only use their own oil and they grow their own fuel, ethanol. Problem is, there is limited farm land (supposedly), if we start growing corn, sugarcane or switchgrass for fuel purposes, it will bump the price of produce.

Originally posted by Robtard
I'm not necessarily against it, as a "free market" in the oil world isn't keeping the cost of a gallon of fuel down. But how is it going to help countries like the US and UK, who import a large portion of their oil? If the US were to drill in the (eg) ANWAR and be able to support it's own needs, then sure.

America needs to take a lesson from Brazil, they're independent. They only use their own oil and they grow their own fuel, ethanol. Problem is, there is limited farm land (supposedly), if we start growing corn, sugarcane or switchgrass for fuel purposes, it will bump the price of produce. Well, I'm no expert, but Norway nationalised the oil, so I guess we should probably look at Norway.

Originally posted by Schecter
lol apparently Yeah, yeah. You're a 30 year old virgin.

i wish someone would save us from education

kidrock teach us your ways

Originally posted by Schecter
i wish someone would save us from education

kidrock teach us your ways Lower taxes. That solves all our problems.

Originally posted by lord xyz
Well, I'm no expert, but Norway nationalised the oil, so I guess we should probably look at Norway.


Norway also has an abundance and they export a lot of their crude.

Originally posted by Robtard
Oil is run mostly by OPEC, they have the biggest pull. They in turn pay of our politicians, who in turn let 'Big Oil' sodomize us at the pump.

They produce about 45% of the worlds crude oil.

Took me a while to find a source for that....but I found it.

"OPEC Member Countries produce about 45 per cent of the world's crude oil and 18 per cent of its natural gas. However, OPEC's oil exports represent about 55 per cent of the crude oil traded internationally. Therefore, OPEC can have a strong influence on the oil market, especially if it decides to reduce or increase its level of production."

http://www.opec.org/library/FAQs/aboutOPEC/q13.htm






If we didn't USE gasoline as our primary transportation energy source, we wouldn't have this problem. We would produce more oil than we could use, the American people would have more money in their pockets due to savings from gas non-dependency, AND our cities would be cleaner! (F*ck you, smog, f*ck you very much.)

Riding the US of its oil dependency is someting I think is VERY important. If we had our own US car manufacturers making cars that do not burn gasoline or other petroleum products as their fuel source, we would create buttloads of jobs. The economy would improve, generally, because we could export both our cars and our surplus oil.



DUDE! That have f**king air cars! (Cars that run on air.) They are more efficient energy wise, and it costs less to make the "fuel" for the cars. (Just load up with compressed air.) Can you say the same for the refinement process for oil?

The obvious answer is that they just want our money. It's that simple. It's a big ass circle.

Don't know about the air car though...

What happens when the oil industry takes over your government?

Originally posted by inimalist
people pay a nickel a liter in Venezuela That's because Venezuela has oil.

Originally posted by lord xyz
it saved my country from health and education...
Originally posted by Schecter
lol apparently

Waahahahahaha! "Save us from education! Save us! We can't take it anymore!"

Waaaahahahahahahaha!

Originally posted by lord xyz
Well, nationalisation will stop that from happening. I hate it when people always think nationalisation is bad, it saved my country from health and education...well, it helped.

Nationalising the oil would stop the paying off the government and possibly even the illegal wars.

Hahaha, it sure did. Horrible system you have.

Originally posted by Strangelove
That's because Venezuela has oil.

So does Canada

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Bought gas in the US lately?

Good Lord, I've never seen an attempt to use an example to refute a point actually SUPPORT the point more drastically.

Gas is incredibly cheap in the US thanks to market forces; and as Jaden pointed out it is Government interference that keeps its prices high elsewhere.

The question is why did gas prices inflate so high in the first place?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Hahaha, it sure did. Horrible system you have.

A german in a thread about gas.


Originally posted by chithappens
The question is why did gas prices inflate so high in the first place?

According to the news, its because there is a shortage, because the lizards are in control of OPEC.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
and as Jaden pointed out it is Government interference that keeps its prices high elsewhere.

aside from canada

****actually, I'd say it might be better to say government involvement can have various effects on prices, depending on the nation's resource situation... Less export and more national control of oil would likely reduce prices in canada, although the transport cost of Albreta -> eastern canada might be higher than import prices.

Originally posted by Devil King
What happens when the oil industry takes over your government?

The people pay hand over fist. Wait...

Originally posted by chithappens
The obvious answer is that they just want our money. It's that simple. It's a big ass circle.

Don't know about the air car though...

Basically, yes. We're grown dependant on their product, so now they set the terms. It's like the dynamic between drug-dealer and the addict.

I don't know how viable that air-car is, maybe for short range driving and not hauling a lot. There was a company that built a car which ran on liquefied air in the early 1900's, it didn't take though.

We've had electric cars since the late 1800's. Yet the EV1 was a flop. Designed to be from the start.

Hybrids, the rage of today aren't new either. There were several hybrids that saw road use between the late 1800's and early 1900's.

Cars getting 30+ mpg were around since the 70's, maybe even earlier. So that 2008 Honda Civic that get's a whopping 30+ mpg really isn't an improvement either.

Besides paying our politicians, Big Oil also pays to suppress technology of alternative fuels. I know interest in alternatives fuels lost drive once the gasoline engine became more dependable, but still in all those years, we've barely improved the technologies?

Originally posted by Robtard
Besides paying our politicians, Big Oil also pays to suppress technology of alternative fuels. All the while, it was the driving force behind the abandonment of mass/public transport systems in major, as well as minor and developing, cities all over the nation. As for alternative fuels, most of the progress in alternative fuels is coming from the oil companies themselves. They're the ones who are investing in these alternative technologies, as a long-term means of continuing to be the industry that posts record profits. It's very Eastern in it's outlook.

Originally posted by Devil King
All the while, it was the driving force behind the abandonment of mass/public transport systems in major, as well as minor and developing, cities all over the nation. As for alternative fuels, most of the progress in alternative fuels is coming from the oil companies themselves. They're the ones who are investing in these alternative technologies, as a long-term means of continuing to be the industry that posts record profits. It's very Eastern in it's outlook.

the investment into alternative fuels accounts for very, very small percentages of annual spending for oil companies. I remember hearing about it on a Bill Moyers, essentially accusing companies of using the meme of "promoting alternative fuels" to stop them from looking like heartless and corrupt corporations determined to sell us a product that is destroying our planet and economy. I'll look it up if you want, but I am sort of just surfing the web at work.

They are the ones putting the most money into the research, but it is not in the intention of discovering a way to reduce their oil profits.

Originally posted by inimalist
the investment into alternative fuels accounts for very, very small percentages of annual spending for oil companies. I remember hearing about it on a Bill Moyers, essentially accusing companies of using the meme of "promoting alternative fuels" to stop them from looking like heartless and corrupt corporations determined to sell us a product that is destroying our planet and economy. I'll look it up if you want, but I am sort of just surfing the web at work.

They are the ones putting the most money into the research, but it is not in the intention of discovering a way to reduce their oil profits.

Oh, I have no doubt they intend to aquire and resell every drop of oil on Earth before they start any real focus on their investments in alternatives. But they've laid the groundwork for their own futures. It's a long term win/win.

But, do feel free to research away. And while you're at it, post a few links about the oil companies shit-canning the public transit system.

In 2000, a gallon of gas averaged $1.40, now it's bordering $4.00 and will be well on it's way to $5.00 by the end of the year.

Inflation has gone up that much in just 8 years? The one thing besides being a war monger that GW Bush will be remembered for (that is if you're a ter'rist supporter), is being Big Oil's (esp. Exxon) little lapdog.

It will probably take a $5.01 price at the pump before people start going nuts and something is done, then again, the damage would have already been done and the profits reaped. Didn't Exxon set a record for profits worldwide in 2007?

Highest in American history. But they are not nearly as profitable as some Russian companies. When Bush looked into Putin's eyes he saw his soul. Apparently it was made of pools of black, tar-like, oil. I'm sure it was something to which Mr. Bush could relate. Then, Putin shot him the bird. But I'm sure Mr. Bush is comfortable with the "It's just business" adage.

Obviously, those are all liberal lies from the socialist who can't stand that companies like Exxon made just a little extra profit.

Originally posted by inimalist
I'm particularly worried about big oil becoming big "alternative energy".

Yup, that is exactly my point.

Originally posted by inimalist
Its probably democracy now,

See, I told you there was something pretty faggy about your math. Now you're citing an organization that actually spoke to Hugo Chavez? Again, clearly you are with the terrorists.

But, it was a very good post inimalist.

As for the NCL issue, that little oil secret has been going on for a very long time. People who have been raised in a world that thinks public transport is limited to larger metropolitan areas are less likely to cry out for an over haul in the way things are done.

Originally posted by Robtard
Basically, yes. We're grown dependant on their product, so now they set the terms. It's like the dynamic between drug-dealer and the addict.

I don't know how viable that air-car is, maybe for short range driving and not hauling a lot. There was a company that built a car which ran on liquefied air in the early 1900's, it didn't take though.

We've had electric cars since the late 1800's. Yet the EV1 was a flop. Designed to be from the start.

Hybrids, the rage of today aren't new either. There were several hybrids that saw road use between the late 1800's and early 1900's.

Cars getting 30+ mpg were around since the 70's, maybe even earlier. So that 2008 Honda Civic that get's a whopping 30+ mpg really isn't an improvement either.

Besides paying our politicians, Big Oil also pays to suppress technology of alternative fuels. I know interest in alternatives fuels lost drive once the gasoline engine became more dependable, but still in all those years, we've barely improved the technologies?

In line with what you said above and what inimalist posted...



http://pesn.com/2006/05/11/9500269_Engineair_Compressed-Air_Motor/


Read the entire article. The guy who designed this engine is working on a large design that could be used in large vehicles. Why in the hell aren't auto makers pursuing this motor left and right? Simple....it drastically reduces the amount of parts needed to drive a car and it seem much too simple to be attractive enough. I have seen his working designs in motion on his "small" version of the motor. Just insane to compare the power put out by the small flat motor next to a much larger fuel burning motor.


Robtard, here is a video on the "air cars".

QmqpGZv0YT4

Simply awesome. I wish some big car manufacturer would poor a hundred mil into the development of the Di Pietro motor and get me and air car by 2015.



Sadly, it probably won't happen.

If Gas theft is happening here in the States:

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-gastheft28-2008may28,0,3350362.story

Can't imagine how it must be in nations were they pay more money for a gallon of gasoline. ermm

The scum, make someone pay around $400 for a repair and they stole what, around $80.00 worth of gas? I doubt this will be an epidemic though.

The oil giants know that gas will be obsolete in the near future, so they want make as much money as possible before that happens. Makes sense actually.

If vegetable oil becomes the alternative, I wonder if that will make farmers the next evil tycoons.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
The oil giants know that gas will be obsolete in the near future, so they want make as much money as possible before that happens. Makes sense actually.

If vegetable oil becomes the alternative, I wonder if that will make farmers the next evil tycoons.

All you have to do is make someone a tycoon, then evil will follow in the next few generations.

Ok, Gandhi.

major food and grain companies are showing windfall profits in light of the recent shortages of food

my thoughts are yes, if there was an industry around vegitable oil, those in the business of making it would profit from it as much as possible

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
Ok, Gandhi.

At least then I wouldn't be on this damn diet.

Originally posted by Devil King
See, I told you there was something pretty faggy about your math. Now you're citing an organization that actually spoke to Hugo Chavez? Again, clearly you are with the terrorists.

well, as far as I know, I'm either with your guy or with them...

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
The oil giants know that gas will be obsolete in the near future, so they want make as much money as possible before that happens. Makes sense actually.

If vegetable oil becomes the alternative, I wonder if that will make farmers the next evil tycoons.


If vegetable oil were the next big alternative, you'd see oil companies investing in it, reducing it's progress and preparing to take advantage of the fact 30 years from now. Just as they are doing with current, supposedly, aternative fuels.

And if farmers were to become the source of ever-expanding revenue and profit, I can fully see them sabotaging other industries in favor of their product. As it is though, they are being subsidized by both parties to not grow crops. Which, reflects another reason the world sufffers from food shortages and high food prices.

Diesels would have to gain popularity in the US for veggie-oil to be the next big thing. With the price of diesel now being about a $1.00 more than gasoline, it seems diesels are trying to be made less and less desirable to the US market.

There are a few companies like VW that plan on bringing a few of thier diesel engines (which are a hit in Europe) up to us emission specs, but it isn't a whole lot.

Originally posted by inimalist
So does Canada It's also a socialist state.

Originally posted by Strangelove
It's also a socialist state.

not our gas baby!

but yes on virtually every other account....

not dentistry either oddly

how much is gas in canada?

On a side note, I think it's ****ed up that the only reason it seems Americans care about Iraq (or the media even discusses it anymore) is because of gas prices.

Americans are so damn numb.

Yeah. Pointless, too. We only get a relatively small part of our oil from the Middle East; the majority is from Canada.

Originally posted by chithappens
how much is gas in canada?

right now? lots. We will run out of easily accessible oil soon (natural gas is already approaching this, where we are over the "hump" in peak production and spending increasing amounts just to maintain a production plateau). We have enough for our own domestic supply probably until the early 30s, though it might take some form of nationalization to prevent it from all being exported south.

After that we have as much gas as any major middle east producer (actually, it gives us reserves second only to Saudi Arabia in the world), it is just all tied up in the Alberta tar sands. Basically it is low quality oil that is bound to shale. The big problem with it is this: In Saudi Arabia during the 50s, when it was the "oil rush", you could drill a well and get about 100 barrels per 1 barrel of expense. In oil sands, for that same barrel of production costs, you are only getting about 2 barrels back. So, we have lots of oil, although to get it will cost massive hydrocarbon pollution.

references:

http://globalpublicmedia.com/interviews/823
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athabasca_Oil_Sands#Estimated_oil_reserves

Originally posted by chithappens
On a side note, I think it's ****ed up that the only reason it seems Americans care about Iraq (or the media even discusses it anymore) is because of gas prices.

Americans are so damn numb.

Its not just Americans. Up here it almost exactly the same with global warming, though I think it is just a natural human trait to not worry or act until something is very apparent and effects your day to day life. As per global warming, the idea that the only reason to reduce pollution or to cut back on gas is to prevent global warming, I find to be idiotic.

But ya, to agree with you more, its the whole "Don't sacrifice, keep shopping, buy that Canyonero http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoPon3xuCjE]" thing. Can you imagine during WW1 or 2 people being told not to sacrifice for the war effort? How important can this "war on terror" be if it isn't important enough for me to stop eating overpriced and under nutriated mcDonald's 6 days a week. (that actually isn't my diet... just an example)

Originally posted by Strangelove
Yeah. Pointless, too. We only get a relatively small part of our oil from the Middle East; the majority is from Canada.

Really? not the middle east part, but I though america produced at least 30% domestically... what about Mexico? I really just don't know, although the last I heard was we send 2 000 000 barrels a day to the US

EDIT: lol, did my own research

9.5% from Canada
9.0% from Mexico
8.4% from Saudi Arabia
7.2% from Venezuala
6.1% from Nigeria

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=18&article_id=3434

and it does look like the vast majority is US domestic production

http://skeptoid.com/images/chart.jpg

http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4032

Originally posted by Devil King
But, it was a very good post inimalist.

As for the NCL issue, that little oil secret has been going on for a very long time. People who have been raised in a world that thinks public transport is limited to larger metropolitan areas are less likely to cry out for an over haul in the way things are done.

I take public transit every day to work

It wasn't until you mentioned it that I even thought "Where the hell is the discussion of public transit in all this global warming mess?"

and now I know...

Originally posted by inimalist
right now? lots. We will run out of easily accessible oil soon (natural gas is already approaching this, where we are over the "hump" in peak production and spending increasing amounts just to maintain a production plateau). We have enough for our own domestic supply probably until the early 30s, though it might take some form of nationalization to prevent it from all being exported south.

After that we have as much gas as any major middle east producer (actually, it gives us reserves second only to Saudi Arabia in the world), it is just all tied up in the Alberta tar sands. Basically it is low quality oil that is bound to shale. The big problem with it is this: In Saudi Arabia during the 50s, when it was the "oil rush", you could drill a well and get about 100 barrels per 1 barrel of expense. In oil sands, for that same barrel of production costs, you are only getting about 2 barrels back. So, we have lots of oil, although to get it will cost massive hydrocarbon pollution.

references:

http://globalpublicmedia.com/interviews/823
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athabasca_Oil_Sands#Estimated_oil_reserves



Its not just Americans. Up here it almost exactly the same with global warming, though I think it is just a natural human trait to not worry or act until something is very apparent and effects your day to day life. As per global warming, the idea that the only reason to reduce pollution or to cut back on gas is to prevent global warming, I find to be idiotic.

But ya, to agree with you more, its the whole "Don't sacrifice, keep shopping, buy that Canyonero http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoPon3xuCjE]" thing. Can you imagine during WW1 or 2 people being told not to sacrifice for the war effort? How important can this "war on terror" be if it isn't important enough for me to stop eating overpriced and under nutriated mcDonald's 6 days a week. (that actually isn't my diet... just an example)



Really? not the middle east part, but I though america produced at least 30% domestically... what about Mexico? I really just don't know, although the last I heard was we send 2 000 000 barrels a day to the US

EDIT: lol, did my own research

9.5% from Canada
9.0% from Mexico
8.4% from Saudi Arabia
7.2% from Venezuala
6.1% from Nigeria

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=18&article_id=3434

and it does look like the vast majority is US domestic production

http://skeptoid.com/images/chart.jpg

http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4032

Sigh, so much I would like to say, but not much time.

I'm glad you actually posted some links for all these oil claims because I was sick of all these people on KMC saying this and that about oil without giving us some damn proof:

"Iraq has all the oil!" - them

"Where's the link?" - me

"Shut up you terrorist!" - them

So yeah, it's appreciated. Again, I have to beg the question of WHY prices inflated in the first place. OPEC does export a good amount of oil but I don't see a valid reason for them rising prices due to risk in the Middle Eastern region (which I've heard plenty of times) or these risk causing them to export less oil. Even scholarly journals do a poor job of "getting right to the point" and instead do a bunch of poor, inconclusive rhetoric that points back to the Iraq war. Yes, an effect is expected, but for me to be paying $3.75 for a gallon in 2008 when a gallon was $1.10 pre-Sept 2001 is insulting.

If I get a chance (and can get this scanner to condense the file so I can upload through this dial up), I want to post a picture of this WWI advertisement I came across talking about German propaganda and how the enemy is in our mist so be careful about what you say, etc.

Originally posted by chithappens
If I get a chance (and can get this scanner to condense the file so I can upload through this dial up), I want to post a picture of this WWI advertisement I came across talking about German propaganda and how the enemy is in our mist so be careful about what you say, etc.

damn...

it is so easy to silence rational discourse with fear. We are too emotional of beasts.

I hope you get a chance to put that up

I'm sorry for the poor quality (can't upload anything too big) but if you save the file onto your PC and then zoom in, it should be readable.

Originally posted by chithappens
I'm sorry for the poor quality (can't upload anything too big) but if you save the file onto your PC and then zoom in, it should be readable.

weeeeeeeeeeeeeeird

http://www.bible-researcher.com/dresden/cpi.html

gives some strange historical perspective...

This current exploit of "terrorist" fears is the exact same thing.

People don't read. It's so damn sad

Originally posted by chithappens
This current exploit of "terrorist" fears is the exact same thing.

People don't read. It's so damn sad

i hear you. Makes me wonder if people on "our" side might also be making too much of this. If this is just what happens when people are at war, not that I am trying to excuse it, possibly things will improve afterwards. Or rather, maybe that sense of impending doom because of how corrupt the administration is NOW is really just our generation's first experience with how corrupt all administrations have always been.

Sort of like something that struck me about the Iraq war. Theoretically, America has been removing leaders and installing puppet governments all around the world for decades if not over a century. They have secretly, using covert ops and what have you, secured resources and nationally strategic locations with force and other evil tactics for just as long. Iraq, in many ways, is this process only made visible. A more savvy president could have made the ousting of Saddam the same as the installation of Pinochet, securing the same oil and security goals as Bush did with overt force...

From that point of view, Iraq is a more open and even democratic way of the American government acting out its foreign policy...

Originally posted by inimalist
i hear you. Makes me wonder if people on "our" side might also be making too much of this. If this is just what happens when people are at war, not that I am trying to excuse it, possibly things will improve afterwards. Or rather, maybe that sense of impending doom because of how corrupt the administration is NOW is really just our generation's first experience with how corrupt all administrations have always been.

Sort of like something that struck me about the Iraq war. Theoretically, America has been removing leaders and installing puppet governments all around the world for decades if not over a century. They have secretly, using covert ops and what have you, secured resources and nationally strategic locations with force and other evil tactics for just as long. Iraq, in many ways, is this process only made visible. A more savvy president could have made the ousting of Saddam the same as the installation of Pinochet, securing the same oil and security goals as Bush did with overt force...

From that point of view, Iraq is a more open and even democratic way of the American government acting out its foreign policy...

What is even more unnerving is that this sort of discourse is taboo in public venues. You can not question what the government is doing or else...

Western democracies have been doing this sort of thing since at least the mid-19th century with colonization of Africa, to the "open door notes" with China (which includes opium wars and "free trade" by force!), then there's the "big stick policy" by T.Roosevelt and this was followed by Wilson:



Also Wilson deployed troops to help the "white" side of the Russian civil war.

The U.S. has been doing this for a very, very long time. It's odd how low key this stuff is. No telling what they are doing that we don't know about.

Originally posted by inimalist
I take public transit every day to work

It wasn't until you mentioned it that I even thought "Where the hell is the discussion of public transit in all this global warming mess?"

and now I know...

And knowing is half the battle.